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https://www.topix.net/forum/source/chicago-tribune/TFIIGSPMCPELF67OR/post19 I applaud the Chicago Tribune for allowing their readers to read and decide for themselves
what they think about the lawsuit by the Baha'is of Wilmette against other US citizens,
which is essentially seeking to deprive other Baha'is of their Constitutional right to
religious freedom and conscience. The Baha'i Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience
2nd post:
[QUOTE who="Janice"]According to Abdul-Baha "religion must be the cause of unity, harmony and agreement among mankind. If it be the cause of discord and hostility, if it leads to sparation and conflict, the absence of religion would be preferable in the world." Which is precisely why the fraudulent will and testament of 1921, purported to be Abdul-Baha's, has produced so much suffering and misery as that of husbands and wives required to shun one another over religious "truth" and similar appalling abominations within the Wilmette Baha'i denomination, the vast majority of whom have been deceived into believing it's a legitimate document. Dr. C. Ainsworth Mitchell, chief document expert at the British Museum, judged it a fraud in 1930, yet it's essentially the fraudulent document which is a the core of why the Wilmette Baha'is are suing and seeking to destroy other Bahai denominations: Reform Bahai Faith
3rd post: [QUOTE who="Marcello"]I was once very attracted to the "mainstream" Baha'i Faith, and even attended the local Baha'i center fairly regularly. But the more I learned about the authoritarian structure of the faith, the more disillusioned I became. This lawsuit only confirms to me that something has gone very wrong with the hierarchy of the Baha'i faith. The inspiring message of Baha'u'llah is now subservient to the political dogmatism of a misguided bureaucracy. What a shame. [/QUOTE]
Ruth White and Ahamad Sohrab, early reform Bahais during the 1930s and '40s, wrote several books that fully discuss what went wrong, subverting the universality of Baha'u'llah's Teachings into a corrupt money and power seeking organization. Their works are also available on the Reform Bahai Faith website. Reform Bahai Faith
4th: The response by members of the Wilmette Bahai denomination here to this article by The Chicago Tribune ought to give any thoughtful person reason for pause and reflection. Below are a few excerpts for historical context. Many of the comments demonstrate the truth of what Professor Juan Cole of the University of Michigan observed way back in 1998 in his book Modernity and the Millennium: The Genesis of the Baha'i Faith in the Nineteenth-Century Middle East, Columbia University Press, writing that the Baha'i administration has increasingly come under the control of fundamentalists, "stressing scriptural literalism ... theocracy, censorship, intellectual intolerance, and denying key democratic values" (196). Similarly he wrote online in 1998,“The very technique of the more glaze-eyed among these people is to unbearably bully a Baha'i whom they don't like, use unjustified threats of declaring him or her a CB [Covenant Breaker (heretic)] to silence the individual, and if the person will not be silenced, then to depend upon the gullibility of the Baha'is in refusing to listen to any victim's story because, of course, the Baha'i institutions are infallible and divinely guided and could never do anything wrong. It is a perfect racket.” Professor Juan Cole, in February 23, 1999: Further insightful comment from Juan Cole and others at I suggest recalling the words of Judge Diane S. Sykes, to the lawyer for the Wilmette Baha'is in their attempt to deprive other Bahai denominations of essentially their religious freedom and liberty, quote, "Clearly raises some Constitutional concerns." Again, the 3-minute Mp3 file of her actually making this statement in the 7th Circuit Court of Appeals may be found at It’s long past time that the people of Chicago and the United States should know the Wilmette Baha’is for the fanatical and oppressive organization it actually is. The Chicago Tribune is to be applauded for allowing its readers to decide for themselves. The Reform Bahai Faith
5th Reform Bahai Faith www.reformbahai.org/Covenant.html Of the several Bahai denominations, the Reform Bahai Faith is the only denomination that follows Abdul-Baha'is authentic Covenant, and not what many have believed is the fraudulent will and testament of 1921. FG
6th What Ms. Brachear doesn't report is that Wilmette Baha'is who refuse to "shun" their spouse are themselves in turn shunned from the denomination. It's difficult to think of a more spiritually sick practice than this one that the fraudulent will and testament has produced, carefully hidden from new Baha'is and the general American public. For the stories and comments of about dozen people who have experienced or witnessed the effects of Baha'i shunning, see Shunning > Menu https://fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/Shunning.htm FG
7th Friends, I urge you to consider that all this contention is further rotten fruit of the fraudulent will and testament of 1921, driven by a hunger for power and control, proven a forgery by modern forensic science in 1930. Reform Bahais have returned to, and renewed, Abdul-Baha's authentic 1912 Covenant, an open, sane, simple, moderate document, preserving the dignity and freedom of the individual in community, advancing no scheme of theocracy and triumphalism, but God's loving Covenant for His creation, in this Day and Time, as Interpreted by the Center of the Covenant. https://www.reformbahai.org/Covenant.html To speak with or invite a Reform Bahai speaker to your community, see our website. To attended a Reform Bahai Fireside, see https://www.reformbahai.org/fireside_meetings.html#fireside Reform Bahai Faith
8th All of the many points of view here dramatically demonstrate for the people of Chicago that, despite the shameless lie of the Wilmette Baha'is before Judge Amy St. Eve in its nsa-memo.pdf in 2006, claiming, while distorting the earlier 1966 court's decision, "No question of religious liberty is involved." In fact, the lawsuit is ESSENTIALLY about religious liberty. See near top of page 2: Judge Amy St. Eve wisely perceived it as such, despite all the obfuscation. God willing, the 7th Circuit Court of Appeals will do so likewise, and thereby set aright for American citizens what a forged will and testament has created. 95 Theses - On Bahai Liberty - Articles - Abdul-Baha's Covenant
9th Dear AmishIndian, Thank you for your appreciative words. If you don't mind my saying so, there seems to me to be two misconceptions underlying the thinking you express. First, the very notion of "unenrolled" plays into the hands of the putative organization that "enrolls," as though it were the legitimate one by its very existence. The "unenrolled" remain controlled by, marginalized, and subordinated to the Baha'i denomination they imagine they're leaving or avoiding the taint thereof. In fact, "unenrolled" Bahais are playing into the hands of the organization that dominates and controls believers in Baha'u'llah through its fraudulent will and testament. The logical step for the "unenrolled" is to understand the implications of Abdul-Baha's own Intepretation that the Bahai Cause cannot be "organized." The irony is that they ARE attempting to follow the actual Teaching of Abdul-Baha without fully recognizing its implications, which is what Reform Bahais are doing and seeking the meaning of, the moderate organization he implied and taught. Second, the notion of "contention" seems to conceive of religion as though it alone of all human endeavours and fields of activity should be free of healthy debate and exchange of opinions. Abdul-Baha stated "The shining spark of truth cometh forth only after the clash of differing opinions." Why should religion be any different? Similar to the common allegations from prevailing culture, the atheist debates, if you will, etc., in modern society, as in the academic world and so forth, ALL fields of human exchange follow the standard of Abdul-Baha--He does not imagine an utopian world free of clash and conflict, nor should we. The issue is the "shining spark of truth," arrived at only through the exchange of views and individual thought, prayer, and struggle. Totalitarianism, censorship, etc., are not the way to achieve unity, but uniformity and suppression, according to the Teachings of Baha'u'llah and Abdul-Baha. Bahai regards, FG The Reform Bahai Faith
talk religion bahai For a distillation of Haifan tactics over the years on talk.religion.bahai, see
Reform Bahai Faith I think Jeffery is asking a very important question here, one members of all Bahai denominations might benefit from reflecting on. One small, respectful caveat. I don't know that the Reform Bahai Faith "will prevail and the others will not." I *believe* that the Reform Bahai Faith is the closest Bahai denomination to Abdul-Baha's Interpretation of Baha'u'llah's Teachings, an Interpretation that brought the Bahai Cause into the modern, democratic, pluralistic world. There is no reason, given the agreement on most of Abdul-Baha's Interpretation, that the various interpretations of the Bahai Faith that now exist cannot continue to exist and live peaceably, tolerantly, and respectfully together. The three major denominations form naturally around one's understanding and belief of what happened at Abdul-Baha's passing and subsequent developments, namely, those Baha'is who follow Shoghi Effendi as the one and only Guardian; those who believe he had a successor; those who return to Abdul-Baha's Interpretation. Following and emulating the example of the religions of the past should be deplored by all Bahais. Bahai regards, FG Reform Bahai Faith
Reform Bahai Faith
Bahai regards, FG
Reform Bahai Faith Jeffery wrote: Jeffery, Fortunately, one's freedom of conscience is God-given and not dependent on them, nor on any US court of law. Bahai regards, Reform Bahai Faith Ruth White and Ahamad Sohrab, early reform Bahais during the 1930s and '40s, wrote several books that fully discuss what went wrong, subverting the universality of Baha'u'llah's Teachings into a corrupt money and power-grubbing organization. Their works are also available on the Reform Bahai Faith website. The sad thing is that most Baha'is have been deceived and brainwashed into believing Shoghi Effendi was appointed by Abdul-Baha as a "guardian" and thereby taught not to think and investigate for themselves. Hence, the spectacle here of all this overwrought reaction to Manya A. Brachear's excellent article, "Baha'i rift: Baha'is upset with Orthodox Baha'i Faith." (Remember that, that's what we're supposed to be talking about!) The comments here by Wilmette Baha'is clearly vindicate her editorial blurb and demonstrates why the real issue of the lawsuit is **religious liberty**: " Mainstream group doesn't want the name Baha'i by any other group." Again, for those in doubt, consider that after 374 messages I may be the only voice that has acknowledged even the truth of her reporting that wives and husbands are REQUIRED to shun one another even unto DIVORCE! "Goldberg's wife was encouraged to divorce her husband." Incidentally, looking at her article again afresh, let me correct one other thing. Wilmette Baha'is do shun people they consider heretics even in **business relations**. They just claim they don't because it's against the secular law of the land. Jeffrey, they have been knocking down your office door for legal representation, have they? Fortunately, the fake will and testament is just that. Abdul-Baha actually taught none of this nonsense. His 1912 Covenant, immediately suppressed after his death, is as clear and simple as he intended. His vision is a free and open Bahai Cause, which is still alive, and growing. Bahai regards, FG Reform Bahai Faith
Reform Bahai Faith [QUOTE who="Wahid Azal"]Sen, Mirza Badi'ullah outright names the fabricator of the will and testament of Abbas Effendi and the circumstances whereby that will was made-up, i.e. Shoghi Effendi's own mother and Abbas Effendi's daughter. While I don't have the time at the moment to respond fully to Sen McGlinn's mistaken attempt to discredit Dr. C. Ainsworth Mitchell's Report, I will point out briefly the key fact: What's purported to be Abdul-Baha's will and testament has never been probated or authenticated independently of those who were and are its beneficiaries. All of McGlinn's arguments are variations of the same old calumnies that the Haifans have always used to smear Dr. Mitchell and Ruth White, following Shoghi Effendi's despicable example. They are not any more convincing coming from a supposedly excommunicated Haifan trying to redeem himself with his masters than when Mirza Sohrab essentially did the same thing, though with more subtlety. McGlinn concedes in his attack on Mitchell that "I am not a forensic handwriting expert" and knowing a language is irrelevant to forensic experts. His assumptions about what Mitchell did are merely that. McGlinn's other tactics are unseemly and entirely in keeping with those widely used by members of the Haifan denomination based on the fraudulent will and testament. Bahai regards, FG
Reform Bahai Faith
Thanks for sharing your views on all of this here. Let me say that, in my opinion, you're leaving out one very important Covenant, Abdul-Baha's authentic 1912 Covenant, the one he openly taught and promulgated to Bahais when he was in the United States:
Reform Bahai Faith
All that does not mean that each denomination cannot candidly state its views and beliefs, what distinguishes and defines each. It's a matter of HOW it's done, the Spirit that counts. None of us are without blame, myself included. Instead of repeating the mistakes of exclusivism, I second Jeffery's reminder that Abdul-Baha called us to a path beyond "dissension and discord, of hate and enmity." What are we going to do about that? FG
Freedom of Conscience
Freedom of Conscience
Baha’u’llah removed jihad, in the violent sense of the word, and other assortments of fanaticism from the Book. Here are a few excerpts in which He and Abdu’l-Baha discuss it: “The deniers and contradictors hold to four words: Abdu’l-Baha: (Both quotations from The Universal Principles of the Reform Bahai Faith. Baha'u'llah & Abdul-Baha. Edited by FG, with a new Introduction and the original 1912 Foreword. Reform Bahai Press, 2008. 148 pages.$19.99. 2nd printing now available. Hardcover: ISBN-13: 9780967042138. Reform Bahai Press. https://www.reformbahai.org/Reform_Bahai_Press.html ) #534 Jun 18 “Shoghi Effendi (1897-1957)... devoted many passages to individuals. Here is an abbreviated list of terms applied by him to ‘covenant-breakers’, dissidents, apostates and opponents: “Diabolical, ambitious, malevolent, deluded,‘shameless apostate’, brazen, infamous, insidious,‘vile whisperer’, Antichrist,‘the living embodiment of wickedness, cupidity and deceit’, blasphemous, unspeakably repugnant, perfidious, unquenchable animosity, arrogant, treacherous, despicable,‘blind, uncontrollable animosity’,‘the most shameless, vicious, relentless apostate’, “All this in the mid-20th century. This is the intolerant world to which Momen [and other Haifan/Wilmette Baha’is], as a true believer, belongs, and I think it not unreasonable to suppose that his analysis of Baha’i apostates derives ... from this tradition...[i.e., Shoghi Effendi. For more details about this article and my own “Response to Takfir,” see https://fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/apostates.htm ] “All this,” one might add, in the twenty-first century, with a fraudulently established Haifan / Wilmette organization seeking to use the federal courts to prop up their reprehensible practices, prop up their bogus trademarks, all of which were even in the public realm for decades prior to Abdul-Baha's death. Obviously, something else is involved than what they're pretending to in Court. Fortunately, the judges are on to 'em. FG
“Diabolical, ambitious, malevolent, deluded,‘shameless apostate’, brazen, infamous, insidious,‘vile whisperer’, Antichrist,‘the living embodiment of wickedness, cupidity and deceit’, blasphemous, unspeakably repugnant, perfidious, unquenchable animosity, arrogant, treacherous, despicable,‘blind, uncontrollable animosity’,‘the most shameless, vicious, relentless apostate’, ‘the incarnation of Satan’,‘fiendish ingenuity and guile’, infernal, nefarious, defectors, betrayers.... simply because they refused to quit a job, because they went on a trip to America without first getting Shoghi's permission, because they had arranged a marriage Shoghi didn't approve of, because they refused to disassociate from fellow family members who had been unjustly black balled because of Shoghi's power tripping? Let face it, it was Shoghi's dysfunction which caused him to become alienated from his entire family not visa versa. Dyfunctional because he gave lip service to the teaching of the oneness of humanity but didn't even practice that oneness within his own family. Here's some of Shoghi's dysfunction ranting to do with his own brother: In December 1949, Shoghi Effendi sent the following cable to the Bahá'í world. "Faithless brother Hussein [Husayn], already abased through dishonourable conduct over period of years followed by association with Covenant-breakers in Holy Land and efforts to undermine Guardian's position, recently further demeaned himself through marriage under obscure circumstances with low-born Christian girl in Europe. This disgraceful alliance, following four successive marriages by sisters and cousins with three sons of Covenant-breaker denounced repeatedly by 'Abdu'l-Bahá as His enemy, and daughter of notorious political agitator, brands them with infamy greater than any associated with marriages contracted by old Covenant-breakers whether belonging to family of Muhammad-'Ali or Badi'u'llah." [32-16](Adib Taherzadeh, The Covenant of Baha'u'llah, p. 362) The actual word's of your hero-guru Shoghi show him for the type of person he truly was, narrow minded as well as bigoted.
Thanks as always for your steadfastness on these issues and sharing your views. I think you're quite right that it comes down to Shoghi Effendi's own bigotry and dysfunction, personally, intellectually, spiritually, and so on. His dealings with his own family demonstrate so thoroughly what's wrong with the Haifan denomination. Free speech and conscience is a wonderful thing. It's very difficult for those who are certain they have the exclusive truth of all of human history to understand. Invariably they run to extremes and convict themselves with their own words. They are the greatest protectors of a free and open society, did they but know it, whether the fanatic is someone like Shoghi Effendi, with all his Shiite Iranian detritus, or one of the many online minions.... they open their mouths, and anyone with any sense can see what they really amount to, as in a court of law.... The Chicago Tribune and Manya A Brachear have really done the people of Chicago a service with their excellent article, despite a few minor inaccuracies, and allowing here in this forum discussion to take place so that citizens may judge for themselves. FG
Please compare the following to Denis McEoin's already-cited article: Excerpt from Mirza Ahmad Sohrab's Broken Silence: The Story of Today's Struggle for Religious Freedom. New York: Universal Publishing, 1942. "A Dangerous Doctrine. In considering the problem of fear, let us for a while study the writings of Shoghi Effendi, the Guardian of the Cause, and see how he handles this vital subject.... The three published volumes of Shoghi Effendi are *Baha'i Administration, The World Order of Baha'u'llah* and *The Advent of Divine Justice*, which works consist of the letters which he has addressed to the National Spiritual Assembly in the course of the last 20 years. Now, I have read these three books and find that the words *enemies* and *adversaries* are greatly featured. Baha'u'llah has said:*Consort with all men with joy and fragrance, yet Shoghi Effendi, in his very first letter, dated January 21, 1922, written after his assumption of the guardianship, recommends *the absolute shunning of whomsoever we feel to be an enemy of the Cause.(*Bahai Administration, page 16.) Now, I cannot bring myself to the point of believing that *absolute shunning* of whomsoever we *feel* to be the enemy of the Cause is a principle of Baha'u'llah. Is every one going to let his *feelings* guide him in the matter? Can we not take for granted that frail human beings as we are, a great deal of personal caprice and spite may enter into our calculations as to *who* is the enemy of the Bahai Cause? This is a very dangerous doctrine, and yet one finds it in different forms throughout Shoghi Effendi's communications. He practically never mentions the names of the *enemies* or *adversaries* to whom he constantly refers. He simply creates ogres and bogey men, and fills the hearts of the Bahais with apprehension and fear. In this way, the fountain-head of free and open comradeship is dried up and the flowers of loving-kindness wither away" (409-410). It seems more than one person has noticed these things about the cult figure Haifans have been brainwashed into worshipping. Baha'i Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience
Freedom of Conscience Of course the UHJ has continued on sowing the same fear as well:... Even though none other than Baha'u'llah himself had removed such antiquated religious practices Shoghi and the UHJ in his stead counciled Baha'is to practice those very religious practices that Baha'u'llah had supposedly abolished:.... Until Baha'is leave such antiquated religious practices behind them their religion will remain part and parcel of the problem of religion being: "the most harmful agency on this planet"* as Abdul-Baha' himself put it. Cheers
I fully agree that Shoghi Effendi and the uhj have created what I would call a cult based entirely on FEAR, and all its offspring, COERCION, PARANOIA, violation of the individual's God-given conscience, highly analogous to all the oppressive systems and regimes of history, whether secular or religious. In my view, ever since Abdul-Baha's death, the monster, leviathan really, created by the spurious will and testament, has been bent upon the destruction of all voices and views contrary to its criminal aspirations of social, material, and political dominance of not just any one nation, but of the entire world. That's a lot for any local leader in a government position to realize and believe--but that's the fact--all of which is thoroughly contrary to what, as you say, Baha'u'llah and Abdul-Baha taught. With the passing decades, it has become even more difficult for Bahais to penetrate the immense veil of lies and fabrications and recover the truth of the Founders own Teachings. But it is possible. Their Teachings were wide and open, addressed to the public. Ultimately, they cannot be suppressed, not even by the corrupted, criminal uhj and its pathetic minions. Corruption is the very essence of the Haifan denomination, for it is built squarely upon a corrupted document. It can never renew the Bahai Teachings. For it has become, as you cite Abdul-Baha, "the most harmful agency on this planet." They've proven it for all the world to see with their obscene lawsuits against other Bahai denominations. In my view, only a renew Bahai denomination returning to Abdul-Baha's broad and universal Interpretation for the modern world can do that--the Reform Bahai Faith. Bahai regards, FG Reform Bahai Faith Baha'i Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience
Freedom of Conscience
Thank you for clarifying for everyone again what the legal perspective or issues are. Just glancing at the headlines in the news, regarding many countries, I'm grateful that we Bahais who are citizens of the USA are blessed with its citizenship and tradition of Western law. I was just reading Abdul-Baha this morning and your comments bring back to mind these passages: "I am pleased with the English King and Government, and with the people. You may thank God that in this land you are so free. You do not know what lack of freedom there is in the East...." "The light of liberty is the light of the West, and the intention of government is to work for truth and justice in Western countries." Thank God that the judges involved in these lawsuits have demonstrated they're interested in liberty, truth, and justice. Bahai regards, FG 95 Theses - On Bahai Liberty - Articles - Abdul-Baha's Covenant
Freedom of Conscience There's a fine passage in Abdul-Baha in London, near the end, in which he says, "The beginnings of all great religions were pure; but priests, taking possession of the minds of the people, filled them with dogmas and superstitions, so that religion became gradually corrupt. I come to teach no new religion.'My only desire is, through the blessing of God, to show the road to the Great Light.'" One might add mullas and "administrators" and all those who would cram the Spirit into a little box, suing anyone who doesn't repeat their shibboleth.... Another fine passage, full of the freedom and liberty of the Bahai Spirit, the authentic Covenant and Teaching and Interpretation of Abdul-Baha: "You can be a Bahai-Christian, a Bahai-Freemason, a Bahai-Jew, a Bahai-Muhammadan. The number nine contains eight, and seven, and all the other numbers, and does not deny any of them. Do not distress or deny anyone by saying 'He is not a Bahai!' He will be known by his deeds." Bahai regards, FG 95 Theses - On Bahai Liberty - Articles - Abdul-Baha's Covenant
Freedom of Conscience For my various Comments posted to the discussion of this article in the Chicago Tribune Forum, now easily available on one page: Also, available on Yahoo Group - ReformBahai Bahai regards, FG Reform Bahai Faith
Freedom of Conscience Jeffrey wrote: A very good question. Abdul-Baha was not afraid of free speech: "The shining spark of truth cometh forth only after the clash of differing opinions." Incidentally, Jeffrey, I certainly don't think you're a fundamentalist and respect your views and conscience, though we regard the will and testament differently. You might recall our various discussions on talk.religion.bahai, which were candid and cordial. Bahai regards, FG Reform Bahai Faith My comments posted to the discussion of this article in the Chicago Tribune Forum on one page: Yahoo Group - ReformBahai
Freedom of Conscience "This is that matter which shall never change. Know that in every age and dispensation all divine ordinances are changed, according to the requirements of the time, except the law of Love which, like unto a fountain, flows always and is never overtaken by change." -Baha'u'llah From The Universal Principles of the Reform Bahai Faith. 2008. Baha'u'llah & Abdul-Baha. Available from the Reform Bahai Press. https://www.reformbahai.org/Reform_Bahai_Press.html Bahai regards, FG Reform Bahai Faith The Baha'i Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience Comments posted to the discussion of this article Yahoo Group - ReformBahai
Freedom of Conscience In my view, 1000 divided by 12 months = 83 years of aggression, in and out of court, against the authentic Covenant of Abdul-Baha.... The math is almost right, 1921 plus 83 = 2004.... close enough. Bahai regards, FG
Freedom of Conscience
As you know, the Wilmette nsa chose to reject Judge St Eve's ruling when they appealed it, which they'll do again, no matter what judgment against the current court issues. They're trapped in the iron-grip of their own fraud and fanaticism. Bahai regards, FG Reform Bahai Faith
Freedom of Conscience Alas, the Bahai world was plunged much earlier into spiritual confusion and catastrophe. I would say, though, that Baha'u'llah and Abdul-Baha both foresaw it and have provided means of recovery. Bahai regards, FG Reform Bahai Faith
Freedom of Conscience AND I should also add that not once did the NSA's attorneys refer to the spiritual significance of the Greatest Name and its symbols. For them it was a trademark pure and simple. The pleadings on behalf of the NSA are blasphemy! The OBF on the other hand made it clear to the Court that the symbol of the Greatest Name and the Greatest Name itself had the most sacred significance and it was absurd to refer to them as corporate trademarks as if the Baha'is were selling soap
As I've pointed out to you before, the Wilmette organization has always taken that tactic in court, misrepresenting or, ironically, accurately representing itself for what it truly is--a hijacked religious cult corruptly based on the teachings of Baha'u'llah and Abdul-Baha, subverted into a business organization. Their thinking seems to be, How can the courts argue with the truth? Bahai regards, FG Reform Bahai Faith https://www.topix.net/forum/source/chicago-tribune/TFIIGSPMCPELF67OR/post1338 Incidentally, it might interest you to know that the Orthodox Bahai Faith was mentioned at a recent fireside / meeting the Reform Bahai Faith held in London at Speakers Corner. https://www.reformbahai.org/Speakers_Corner_Hyde_Park_London_UK.html People had asked about other Bahai denominations and I had mentioned the Orthodox Bahais as well. Bahai regards, FG Reform Bahai Faith
Freedom of Conscience
Dr. Denis MacEoin makes many enlightening observations along these lines in his review of Making the Crooked Straight, in June 2001, a review relevant here to the Chicago Tribune article, which has largely been evaded by Wilmette Baha'is: "How humanitarian is it to demand that a man’s wife and children should shun him merely because he has changed his beliefs?" There's the real Wilmette Baha'i Faith that is currently using the US Court of Appeals in its fanaticism against other Bahais. It is not inappropriate to consider the very long and well documented history of reprehensible tactics and apologetics of both individuals and "institutions," especially when they threaten the very integrity of the democratic society we live and which both Baha'u'llah and Abdul-Baha lauded and largely approved. The people of Chicago and the United States have the right to know what the true nature of the Wilmette Baha'i organization is--basically a Shiite Iranian cult built on a fraudulent will and testament, hiding behind a deceptive facade of peace and love. FG Baha'i Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience My comments posted to the discussion of this article in the Chicago Tribune Forum on one page: Yahoo Group - ReformBahai ---- Susan Maneck, Baha'i scholar: https://fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/Maneck8.htm
Freedom of Conscience "More than once in the past century, scholars have had occasion to speak of the intellectual dishonesty of the Baha'is in dealing with matters of historical fact. Unhappily, it has fallen to my lot to reiterate the sentiments of my predecessors and to deplore, as they deplored, the high-handed and tendentious manner in which texts are manipulated, facts swept aside or transformed, and common sense outraged..." (80). In MacEoin's response to an attack by Baha'i fundamentalists, he observed, in "Afnán, hatcher and an old bone," Religion, Volume 16, Issue 2, April 1986, Pages 193-195, that they were similarly "dishonest and unacademic" in their treatment of his and others' scholarship on Babi and Bahai sources. These same essentially dishonest and apologetic impulses are evident in the online posts of the Haifan-Wilmette Baha'is here, as they are in their claims in court during this misbegotten case. That Susan Maneck has exhibited the same "dishonest and unacademic" qualities throughout her various jihads online is no more than to observe the facts of her conduct, easily confirmed by anyone who wishes to independently investigate the matter for themselves. The crude apologists for her duplicities and lack of integrity merely prove the application of Dr. MacEoin's observations in other contexts:
FG Baha'i Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience My comments posted to the discussion of this article in the Chicago Tribune Forum on one page: Yahoo Group - ReformBahai -- https://fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/Maneck8.htm Freedom of Conscience Typical of Haifan-Wilmette Baha'i fanaticism that the real issue at hand is evaded and the subject changed, as though it were all personal animosity, ad hominem used whenever needed to obscure the dirty reality that the cult of Shoghi Effendi and his fraudulent will and testament has produced. Professor Juan Cole speaks with authority on the utter lack of ethics of both Susan Maneck,*dishonest* online Baha'is like her, and the "mainstream" Baha'i "administration", mainstream only in its polluted interpretation of Baha'u'llah's Teachings: www.FG.com/bahaicensorship/Cole19.htm www.FG.com/bahaicensorship/Cole20.htm www.FG.com/bahaicensorship/Cole74.htm FG Baha'i Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience My comments posted to the discussion of this article in the Chicago Tribune Forum on one page: Yahoo Group - ReformBahai Reform Bahai Faith
Freedom of Conscience KPS59 wrote: KPS59, Thank you for your comments. Your willingness to speak out is very important, especially given the BUPC court experience. I think it's essential that the various Bahai denominations set a better example of respecting one another's opinions and freedom of conscience than past religions or the Haifans. Bahai regards, FG Baha'i Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience My comments posted to the discussion of this article in the Chicago Tribune Forum on one page: Yahoo Group - ReformBahai Reform Bahai Faith
Freedom of Conscience RossCampbell wrote: Ross, Thank you for your comment. While I respect your opinion and belief, permit me to say that, actually, in my view, Abdul-Baha did not appoint anyone, as he said and warned against repeatedly. The historical record of *all* of the Bahai books and periodicals published prior to 1921 demonstrate that fact. It's only after the fraudulent will and testament is forced upon the early Bahais, over a couple of generations, really, that people came to believe it--often because they didn't know the truth, despite Ruth White and Dr. C. Ainsworth Mitchell's efforts to wake people up. Abdul-Baha's teaching was solely that a properly elected Universal House of Justice would guide the community: "After Abdul-Baha—whenever the Universal House of Justice is organized it will ward off differences." That's it in a nutshell. Far from falling out of the boat, I and Reform Bahais have figured it out and gotten back in it. Bahai regards, FG Baha'i Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience My comments posted to the discussion of this article in the Chicago Tribune Forum on one page: Yahoo Group - ReformBahai Reform Bahai Faith
Freedom of Conscience
FG Baha'i Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience My comments posted to the discussion of this article in the Chicago Tribune Forum on one page: Yahoo Group - ReformBahai Reform Bahai Faith
https://www.topix.net/forum/chicago/TFIIGSPMCPELF67OR/post3438
https://www.topix.net/forum/chicago/TFIIGSPMCPELF67OR/post3439 Also, I would urge anyone actually interested in the truth of the **ACTUAL** history of the Baha'i Faith to read the works of Ruth White, Julie Chanler, and Mirza Ahmad Sohrab. They understood that something very profound and basic had gone wrong with the Baha'i Faith after Abdul-Baha's death in 1921 and had the courage to speak out against it. They all identified the tactics of slander and abuse used by Shoghi Effendi as despicable and capable of only leading to the destruction of Abdul-Baha's universal Interpretation of the Bahai Movement.
https://www.topix.net/forum/chicago/TFIIGSPMCPELF67OR/post3447 https://www.topix.net/forum/chicago/TFIIGSPMCPELF67OR/post3496 https://www.topix.net/forum/chicago/TFIIGSPMCPELF67OR/post3497
Thank you for searching the database for topix.net , google, and the archive for The Chicago Tribune: https://www.topix.net/forum/chicago/TFIIGSPMCPELF67OR/post3521 KPS, Thank you for pointing out that a Bahai of one persuasion or another may have the opportunity to skew or distort the availability of information presented here. You're quite right, as you know, that the Haifan Baha'is often and regularly sink to extremely low levels of duplicity and deceit in their reprehensible efforts to suppress views other than their own. With all respect for your views, realizing its up to you to decide for yourself what is important and what isn't, I would suggest you might consider, indeed, people here of all persuasions, that we should be concerned if the originating article for this forum has been removed from The Chicago Tribune main site. See message #3497 for details. https://www.topix.net/forum/chicago/TFIIGSPMCP... It distorts what the general American and international readership can easily find on The Chicago Tribune about the Baha'i Faith ina major newspaper of public record and thereby enables it to suppress the knowledge of its unconscionable attacks on Bahais of other denominations in the US District Courts, attacks against all freedom-loving people. Further, it enables the Wilmette, Illinois nsa of the corrupt and decadent Haifan Baha'i Faith to present itself in a falsely favorable light, which is deceptive and unearned, calculated to mislead the uninformed and innocent. Abdul-Baha's 1912 Authentic Covenant www.reformbahai.org/Covenant.html Comments on Abdul-Baha's 1912 Authentic Covenant https://www.reformbahai.org/Covenant_comments.... Reform Bahai Faith Rochester, Michigan USA www.ReformBahai.org
https://www.topix.net/forum/chicago/TFIIGSPMCPELF67OR/post3508 I never used the "conspiracy." That was uttered by apparently a member of the Baha'i denomination that relies on slander and character assassination for discrediting people it cannot otherwise refute or control to believe in their fraudulent will and testament. My point is merely noting the original article, unlike some older articles even back to 2006, has been removed, despite a huge interest demonstrated in this forum. Why? It doesn't make sense. Not logical to remove articles of interest. Independently thinking people should at least wonder why and be concerned. The fanatical and deceitful history of the Haifan denomination is well known. See The Baha'i Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience for further details: https://fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/ They also demonstrated it to Judge Amy St. Eve and she ruled against them. Judge Diane S. Sykes seemed to understand what caliber of an organization she had in front of her in court last February when she said their tactics "Clearly raises some constitutional concerns." Three minute MP3 recording: https://fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/arch... 7th Circuit Court of Appeals Judges hammer NSA's attorney 2-20-09 https://fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/USCo... Bahai regards, Reform Bahai Faith Rochester, Michigan USA www.ReformBahai.org https://www.topix.net/forum/chicago/TFIIGSPMCPELF67OR/post3509 Larry, I respect and share your concern about "exculsivity." In my view, the actual teaching and Interpretation of Abdul-Baha of Baha'u'llah emphasizes non-exclusivism. For more than a full decade, teaching in the West, in public, through spoken and written word, that's what Abdul-Baha actually taught. It's truly only with the fraudulent will and testament that the Bahai Movement was distorted into the fanatical organization it has become. This is discussed with clear examples and citations at Comments on Abdul-Baha's 1912 Authentic Covenant https://www.reformbahai.org/Covenant_comments.... I invite you to investigate it for yourself. I do want to say that I respect your recent statement that you consider yourself now basically agnostic. That's a respectable, reasonable view of life and human experience--especially looking around at the way the world seems to work. I do not demean it in anyway, nor should anyone else. Why we all *believe* various beliefs, not one of us *knows* this side of the grave, all the more reason to respect one another. Bahai regards, Reform Bahai Faith Rochester, Michigan USA www.ReformBahai.org https://www.topix.net/forum/chicago/TFIIGSPMCPELF67OR/post3519 Buddhists of many persuasions, reformers and otherwise, have said the same thing about Buddhism from time to time. Abdul-Baha in London (125): "The beginnings of all great religions were pure; but priests, taking possession of the minds of the people, filled them with dogmas and superstitions, so that religion became gradually corrupt. I come to teach no new religion. My only desire is, through the blessing of God, to show the road to the Great Light." In Abdul-Baha in London, he then immediately says, "I am no Prophet, only a man like yourself." He was limited by his time and his experience, as Baha'u'llah makes clear every dispensation is in the Book of Certitude. That a hundred years ago someone from a Muslim background would fail to understand Buddhism at the level we easily can today demonstrates how far society has progressed in understanding other religions. It is the universality at the core of Abdul-Baha's Interpretation of Baha'u'llah's Teachings that is important, along with the example of it given by Abdul-Baha in the West. Abdul-Baha's 1912 Authentic Covenant www.reformbahai.org/Covenant.html Comments on Abdul-Baha's 1912 Authentic Covenant https://www.reformbahai.org/Covenant_comments.... Reform Bahai Faith Rochester, Michigan USA www.ReformBahai.org https://www.topix.net/forum/chicago/TFIIGSPMCPELF67OR/post3524 I would add Buddhists have attacked other Buddhists. Japanese history, especially, is unfortunate examples of that. Buddhists have and do disagree amongst themselves about interpretation, organization, etc. Why should Bahai be any different? Human beings disagree in education, government, etc., but when it comes to religion, modern conception is highly unrealistic. Abdul-Baha emphasized truth is arrived at through the "clash of differing opinions." Bahais needn't be afraid of that. The tongue,not the sword, is the standard. I fully agree with you that SOME of the teachings and concepts of the world's religions are worth retaining. That is what Abdul-Baha himself did with both the Bab and Baha'u'llah's own teachings. He quietly emphasized the universal direction Bahais should take and set the example, though corrupted and usurped by the fraudulent will and testament for most Bahais. In the long term, God willing, more Bahais will come to realize all this through, unfortunately, if nothing else, bitter experience, the kind you have often cited and alluded to, the court cases, etc. Bahai regards, Abdul-Baha's 1912 Authentic Covenant www.reformbahai.org/Covenant.html Comments on Abdul-Baha's 1912 Authentic Covenant https://www.reformbahai.org/Covenant_comments.... Reform Bahai Faith Rochester, Michigan USA www.ReformBahai.org https://www.topix.net/forum/chicago/TFIIGSPMCPELF67OR/post3525
Abdul-Baha emphasized the Bahai Movement was NOT a new religion, but religion renewed. In London he stated that "You can be a Bahai-Christian, a Bahai-Freemason, a Bahai-Jew, a Bahai-Muhammadan" (98), as he did on other occasions. Universality, not uniformity. It's only the individual soul who knows how to negotiate the path of his or her soul.
https://www.topix.net/forum/chicago/TFIIGSPMCPELF67OR/post3558 KPS, Case in point.... PS, Thank you for pointing out that a Bahai of one persuasion or another may have the opportunity to skew or distort the availability of information presented here. You're quite right, as you know, that the Haifan Baha'is often and regularly sink to extremely low levels of duplicity and deceit in their reprehensible efforts to suppress views other than their own. With all respect for your views, realizing its up to you to decide for yourself what is important and what isn't, I would suggest you might consider, indeed, people here of all persuasions, that we should be concerned if the originating article for this forum has been removed from The Chicago Tribune main site. See message #3497 for details. https://www.topix.net/forum/chicago/TFIIGSPMCP... It distorts what the general American and international readership can easily find on The Chicago Tribune about the Baha'i Faith ina major newspaper of public record and thereby enables it to suppress the knowledge of its unconscionable attacks on Bahais of other denominations in the US District Courts, attacks against all freedom-loving people. Further, it enables the Wilmette, Illinois nsa of the corrupt and decadent Haifan Baha'i Faith to present itself in a falsely favorable light, which is deceptive and unearned, calculated to mislead the uninformed and innocent. Abdul-Baha's 1912 Authentic Covenant www.reformbahai.org/Covenant.html Comments on Abdul-Baha's 1912 Authentic Covenant https://www.reformbahai.org/Covenant_comments.... Reform Bahai Faith Rochester, Michigan USA www.ReformBahai.org
https://www.topix.net/forum/chicago/TFIIGSPMCPELF67OR/post3559 Larry, I respect your views, even as I don't share them. There are people in all religions who are "blind" to the worst in human nature and human failings, in and out of their faiths. At the same time, I would say the majority hold to what is best in human nature, stated clearly by Christ and other manifestations as the Golden Rule, which, yes, we human beings, all too easily fall short of. That's not Utopian, that's the nature of our existence and the challenge we find in the life given to us, to strive to rise toward the highest spiritual teachings held in common by all of the religions. Bahai regards, Abdul-Baha's 1912 Authentic Covenant www.reformbahai.org/Covenant.html Comments on Abdul-Baha's 1912 Authentic Covenant https://www.reformbahai.org/Covenant_comments.... Reform Bahai Faith Rochester, Michigan USA www.ReformBahai.org
https://www.topix.net/forum/chicago/TFIIGSPMCPELF67OR/post3561 It's trued, as you say, that the archived version has no link to this discussion: https://archives.chicagotribune.com/2009/may/1... But it's the fact that articles on Bahai going back to 2006 are still available atwww.chicagotribune.com that might be reason for concern. Hackers are very good at changing such things. Janice's comments shows someone *actually* tried to do what I'm concerned about--find the article and *this forum* but couldn't. It's reasonable to believe there may have been others who gave up and many who never heard of its existence in the first place. Comments in the Chicago Tribune Forum: https://fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/Chic...
https://www.topix.net/forum/chicago/TFIIGSPMCPELF67OR/post3579
I have the highest respect for Denis MacEoin's scholarship and articles and urge anyone interested in real scholarship, instead propaganda, to read his work, especially his many articles and reviews in the journal "Religion." That's not to say he's infallible, only professionally honest and sincere about his sources and conscience, unlike Baha'i minions who have no scholarly integrity.
https://www.topix.net/forum/chicago/TFIIGSPMCPELF67OR/post3727 Jeffrey wrote: Jeffrey, As you and other members of the Orthodox Baha'i Faith, not to mention Essentially, the Haifans, under Shoghi Effendi's fraudulent will and Decades of supporting EVIDENCE may be found at the following links: Chicago Tribune. Baha'i rift. Baha'is upset with Orthodox Baha'i Faith May 18, 2009 Comments posted to The Chicago Tribune Forum on one page: Baha'i Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience Questions? CONTACT ME HERE > https://en.allexperts.com/q/Bah-2728/indexExp_113873.htm |