From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Friday, December 04, 1998 9:48 AM
Subject: AOL Bahai Forums - Steve Case, Mark Foster
Dear Mr. Foster:
I and others on AOL would appreciate your
resigning from your position [as Forum Leader] so that something
may begin to improve. We have been discussing
periodically since at least August your disapperance
and now ask you to step down.
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm Talk.religion.bahai voter
ballot is on news.announce.newgroups, news.groups, alt.religion.bahai,
or email the votetaker dave@dogwood.com requesting the trb CFV ballot.
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm Talk.religion.bahai voter
ballot is on news.announce.newgroups, news.groups, alt.religion.bahai,
or email the votetaker dave@dogwood.com requesting the trb CFV ballot.
-------------
Rough Draft to Steve Case:
Dear Mr. Case,
There are serious and long standing problems with the
way the Bahai Forums are run. As members of AOL,
who pay $21.95 a month, we're concerned that AOL is
permitting unknowingly a very high level of censorship
and manipulation to take place by essentially religious
zealots who will not permit others to speak their minds.
As members, former members, or non-members of the
Bahai Faith, we have witnessed censorship practiced by
Bahais in many forums on and off the Internet. We presently
are attempting to create an unmoderated newsgroup,
talk.religion.bahai on Usenet. FG's web
site documents numerous abuses by Bahais of the human
rights of members and non-Bahais:
The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/bahai.htm
We ask you to investigate the situation on the AOL Forums
and appoint someone as Forum Leader who will be a fair and
objective person allowing all opinions to find expression
and not abuse their duties in favor of fanatical views or perhaps
appoint two or three people to counterbalance one another
with veto power so that at least some kind of system of checks
and balances might exists to protect people from the tyranny
of past Bahai Forum Leaders.
At the very least, we feel the resolution must allow the following
changes under the Bahai Forums which some members have
been advocating since the middle of August 1998:
alt.religion.bahai and any new future newsgroups on the Bahai
Faith, such as talk.religion.bahai, should it pass, ought to be
added to the list of available Newsgroups under Bahai
Libraries should finally function and accept all postings to them
of any point of view uncensored by the Forum Leader.
Such web sites as FG's The Bahai Faith &
Religious Freedom of Conscience should be added to Links
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm and any other
link suggested by an AOL member ought to be automatically
added to the list and not censored for religious reasons.
We know that the Bahai AOL Forums have had a stormy
history. We hope that you will help us find a lasting solution to
these profound problems of religious freedom and conscience.
At the moment, we believe the "frozen" nature of the Bahai
Forums very much plays into the hands of those opposed to
freedom of speech and hope a compromise can be reached
allowing for a new atmosphere of openness and toleration on
AOL's Bahai Forums.
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm Talk.religion.bahai voter
ballot is on news.announce.newgroups, news.groups, alt.religion.bahai,
or email the votetaker dave@dogwood.com requesting the trb CFV ballot.
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 1998 8:14 AM
To: FG
Subject: My Response to AOL Shawna T
Subj: Bahai Forums - Why Susan Maneck should be made Message Board Manager
Date: 12/16/1998 7:12:29 AM Eastern Standard Time
From: FG
To: ShawnnaT
CC: FG
Shawnna T
Office of the Chairman
Dear Shawnna,
Thank you for acknowledging my message to Mr. Case.
I appreciate your re-routing it to the appropriate person
as AOL and I look forward to hearing from him or her.
Since my original message to you efforts by some Bahais
to use the AOL forums to undermine the Usenet system
of interest polling on talk.religion.bahai have only increased,
especially by Susan Maneck. It's a very complicated
situation with a long and tulmultous history on AOL.
I trust the person you're referring me to will have the
patience and tenacity to help improve the Bahai Forums.
Respectfully,
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm Talk.religion.bahai voter
ballot is on news.announce.newgroups, news.groups, alt.religion.bahai,
or email the votetaker dave@dogwood.com requesting the "trb CFV."
------
Subj: Bahai Forums - Why Susan Maneck should be made Message Board Manager
Date: 12/15/1998 9:43:39 AM Eastern Standard Time
From: Steve Case
To: FG
Dear FG,
I am responding to your letter on behalf of Steve Case. Thank you for taking
the time to write to us.
We appreciate member feedback because it is the best way for us to know what
we are doing right -- and what we could do better.
I have passed your comments to the appropriate person at America Online.
Please feel free to write us again at any time.
Sincerely,
Shawnna T
Office of the Chairman
-------------------------
Dear Mr. Case:
The continuing serious negelect of the Bahai Forums
would not be solved in the best interest of all AOL members
by appointing Susan Maneck. My experience with her on a
scholar mailing list h-bahai at the University of Michigan and
her recent attacks on the creation of talk.religion.bahai on
Usenet convince me that she would not be a fair arbiter. She
has recently threatened to violate Usenet interest poll custom
by calling for a NO vote against the proposed newsgroup
talk.religion.bahai, which has been defeated in the past by
a massive NO vote campaign mounted by other Bahais in a
similar fashion: https://members.tripod.com/~FG/Towfiq.htm
I hope you will help find a solution to prevent another such Bahai
from having control over the free speech and conscience of AOL
members.
Specifically she has continued to ignore my and others' concerns
about 3 key areas. I've clipped them out of the REVISED PETITION:
alt.religion.bahai and any new future newsgroups on the Bahai
Faith, such as talk.religion.bahai, should it pass, ought to be
added to the list of available Newsgroups under Bahai
Libraries should finally function and accept all postings to them
of any point of view uncensored by the Forum Leader.
Such web sites as FG's The Bahai Faith &
Religious Freedom of Conscience should be added to Links
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm and any other
link suggested by an AOL member ought to be automatically
added to the list and not censored for religious reasons.
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm Talk.religion.bahai voter
ballot is on news.announce.newgroups, news.groups, alt.religion.bahai,
or email the votetaker dave@dogwood.com requesting the "trb CFV."
-----Original Message-----
From: Fran Baker <fran@crhc.uiuc.edu>
To: FG@hotmail.com <FG@hotmail.com>; fbaker@ncsa.uiuc.edu
<fbaker@ncsa.uiuc.edu>; house@usq.edu.au <house@usq.edu.au>;
johnwalker@ozemail.com.au <johnwalker@ozemail.com.au>;
fran@amber.crhc.uiuc.edu <fran@amber.crhc.uiuc.edu>; smaneck@stetson.edu
<smaneck@stetson.edu>; rdsteph@ibm.net <rdsteph@ibm.net>
Date: Monday, December 07, 1998 5:03 AM
Subject: Re: [Fwd: talk.religion.bahai]
>Resending this to all due to a typo I made in Susan's email address.
>--Fran
>
>Fran Baker wrote:
>>
>> Sorry, Susan, but sometimes an appeal to courtesy is not appropriate.
>> I have to let my coproponents know what you are planning to do.
>> I can't believe you are letting a personality conflict resulting
>> from a passionate disagreement color your judgment in what is
>> essentially a human rights issue. You have crossed a line here.
>>
>> --Fran
>>
>> PS Who is rdsteph@ibm.net? Hi, whoever you are!
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Subject: talk.religion.bahai
>> Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 12:31:28 -0500
>> From: "Susan Maneck " <smaneck@stetson.edu>
>> To: rdsteph@ibm.net
>> CC: Fran Baker <fran@crhc.uiuc.edu>
>>
>> Dear Ron and Fran,
>>
>> I am seriously contemplating calling for a "no" vote on
>> talk.religion.bahai. I wanted to contact you first and explain to you
>> my rationale because I know this is something you have both
>> worked hard for. In the past I have not participated in the votes at
>> all. I wouldn't vote for it because I wanted nothing to do with a list
>> promoted by Fred and I felt that there ought to be the requisite
>> number of 150 truly interested individuals to form it. On the other
>> hand, I would not vote now because I thought it wrong because I
>> did not think that an unmoderated list should be opposed in
>> principle. Now, however, I find the manner in which Fred is going
>> about seeking to establish this list to be more than I can stomach
>> and publicly calling for a "no" vote appears to be the only way to
>> register the extent of our outrage against this kind of behaviour.
>> What I refer to specifically is the campaign of slander and calumny
>> against not only the Institutions, but against myself and the Bahai
>> Studies list. As you know, he accuses this list and me of
>> censorship, which you yourself know is not true. He is also trying
>> to prevent my managing the Baha'i Message Board of AOL for the
>> same reason. He constantly spams that Board making any
>> genuine discussions virtually impossible.
>>
>> I'm going to sit on this a couple of days and give myself a cooling
>> off period before taking any action, but I've really had it "up to here"
>> with this jerk.
>>
>> Please do me the courtesy of not forwarding this message to Fred
>> (although you may convey my sentiments and my intentions). I do
>> not care to see it up in his website tomorrow.
>>
>> warmest, Susan
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, December 27, 1998 10:47 AM
To: FG
Subject: 3 Issues
Subject: 3 Issues
Date: 12/27/1998 9:28 AM Eastern Standard Time
From: FG
Message-id: <19981227092856.12903.00001848@ng-fd1.aol.com>
At the end of 1998, the 3 Issues remain here on the Bahai
Forum:
alt.religion.bahai added to newsgroups
Libraries functioning and accepting all postings to them and
uncensored by Bahais.
My web site The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience
added to Web Sites and all others freely accepted as well:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm
On alt.religion.bahai and AOL, Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
baha'i
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 1999 9:44 AM
To: talisman; bahai-faith @ egroups.com
Subject: Antinomies - Robert Browning, Dostoevsky
From a May 1992 letter:
I've been reading lately a narrative poem by Robert
Browning, "Bishop Blougram's Apology." I've read it a number of
times over the years, and it's one that I continue to think
about. The character of the bishop is partly based on John Henry
Newman and another contemporary figure in the Roman Catholic
Church, the latter of whom was especially noted for his abuse of
power and position. Over dinner, the bishop justifies his
corruption to a young journalist who has noticed his calculation,
insincerity, and hypocrisy. In much of the poem, Browning is
dealing with the nature of religious doubt. While the bishop is
a hypocrite who embraces Catholicism because it gives him "cabin
comforts" and the "estimation" of the masses, the journalist is
charmingly naive in his insistence that religious faith should be
"absolute." In a marvelous passage Browning recognizes the
complex duality of the human soul:
No, when the fight begins within himself,
A man's worth something. God stoops o'er his head,
Satan looks up between his feet--both tug--
He's left, himself, i' the middle: the soul wakes
And grows. Prolong that battle through his life!
Never leave growing till the life to come!
ll. 690
Putting this truth in a sophist's mouth, Browning probes much
deeper into the struggle for faith than the "pious" usually allow
themselves. To my mind, the health of the spirit requires that
freedom--given by God--to doubt and question and probe every
single dogma of religion in its oppressively organized phase. On
the other hand, Browning's point is partly that doubt itself,
like evil and suffering, is a test of one's belief, for mature
belief can only grow out of the struggle with doubt.
There is something deeply, inescapably, eternally
dialectical in the human being and in the very nature of
existence, the way it develops, evolves, progresses.
Dostoevsky, in his chapter "The Grand Inquisitor," In The
Brothers Karamazov, meditates dialectically on the dilemma of
free will and obedience to religious authority. Christ returns
during the Spanish Inquisition and is imprisoned by the Grand
Inquisitor who accuses Christ of leading men into confusion by
giving them freedom of choice and conscience. The Grand
Inquisitor informs Christ that
We have corrected Your work and have now founded it on
miracle, mystery, and authority. And men rejoice at
being led like cattle again, with the terrible gift of
freedom that brought them so much suffering removed
from them.
The Inquisitor goes on to tell Christ that man's "greatest need
on earth" is "to find someone to worship, someone who can relieve
him of the burden of his conscience, thus enabling him finally to
unite into a harmonious ant-hill where there are no dissenting
voices. . . ." In place of individual responsibility to God, the
Inquisitor promises to free mankind from "the frightening torment
they know today when they have to decide for themselves how to
act." Christ listens to this sophist without uttering a word,
and then, at the end, before being allowed to leave, rises and
kisses the Inquisitor. Ivan, a nihilist, who relates this story,
asserts all too accurately that in the modern world "everything
is permitted." The Grand Inquisitor, grasping for power, a
character to whom Nietzsche must have responded deeply, "doesn't
believe in God." Dostoevsky knew these rich tensions were part
of human nature. At times, the Bahá'í administration grossly
fails to understand that Bahá'u'lláh has also blessed humankind
with this burden of freedom and responsibility.
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm
On alt.religion.bahai and AOL, Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 1999 9:00 AM
To: FG
Subject: Antinomies - Frodo, Prospero
Frodo:
"But I have been too deeply hurt, Sam. I tried to save the Shire,
and it has been saved, but not for me. It must often be so, Sam,
when things are in danger; some one has to give them up, lose
them, so that others may keep them. But you are my heir...."
Prospero:
"Now my charms are all o'erthrown,
And what strength I have's mine own,
Which is most faint....
But release me from my bands,
With the help of your good hands.
Gentle breath of yours my sails
Must fill, or else my project fails,
Which was to please. Now I want
Spirits to enforce, art to enchant;
And my ending is despair
Unless I be relieved by prayer,
Which pierces so, that it assaults
Mercy itself, and frees all faults.
As you from crimes would pardoned be,
Let your indulgence set me free."
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm
talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, January 16, 1999 9:23 AM
To: FG
Subject: Antinomies - Milosz
"It appears that my oeuvre is Christian and even (practically)
irreproachable according to the criteria of Catholic theology.
I am not so sure, though I like to hear this. Certainly, it stands
out against the background of twentieth century poetry, also
Polish poetry, which is agnostic or atheist. Yet the religious
content of my poems is not the result of design by a believer;
it grew out of my doubts, turmoil, and despair, as they
searched for a form. If not for a strong heretical seasoning,
the religious content would not have been there. Thus, my
resistance to being squeezed into the rubric of "Catholic
poet" was well founded."
Czeslaw Milosz, Road-side Dog
----------
From: FG@aol.com[SMTP:FG@aol.com]
Sent: Monday, March 01, 1999 7:29 AM
To: TOSGeneral@aol.com
Cc: FG@hotmail.com; RBCFAdmin@aol.com
Subject: (no subject)
This person is referring to my opinions as "vitriol"
and in other insulting terms, while Mark Foster the
putative Forum Leader permits it employing his
double standard since she's a true blue Bahai
fundamentalist.
FG@aol.com
Subject: Re: Folder changes being discussed
Date: 2/27/1999 3:14 PM Eastern Standard Time
From: <A HREF="aol://3548:Wrldunity9">Wrldunity9</A>
Message-id: <19990227151411.16109.00000862@ng116.aol.com>
Hi Susan,
Yes, but still ... "two wrongs don't make a right."
My original comment was for Fred also. And as I always tell my daughter, no
matter what anyone or everyone else does, you are responsible for yourself,
and you can't go wrong taking the high road.
I hope that one day Fred will realize that if he indeed had any valid point to
make on his so-called "technique," his continual spamming and spreading of
vitriol only influences people to avoid his message. Obsession is not a
pretty thing, and I hope Fred can find a way to overcome it and be happy
instead.
Most sincerely,
Becky
----------
From: FG@aol.com[SMTP:FG@aol.com]
Sent: Monday, March 01, 1999 9:23 AM
To: RBCFAdmin@aol.com
Cc: FG@hotmail.com
Subject: Fwd: Bahai Forums - False TOSs by Mark Foster, Forum Leader
<<Message: Re: Bahai Forums - False TOSs by Mar...>>
Dear Jerry White:
Referring to me as having "long pink ears" is not insulting
to me? I beg your pardon. It certainly is. If I were say anything
even remotely like this Foster would TOS me. She's obviously
taunting me and getting away with it to the delight of Bahai
fundamentalists.
In my opinion, Maneck also violates the TOS rules by accusing
me of "violating standard netiquette" when she and other
Bahais are secretly emailing me, demonizing me on AOL,
accusing me of being a covenant breaker (a Bahai heretic), and
slander my character in sundry manner. "Unconscionable" is
a loaded word that in my view applies to Maneck and Foster's
tactics. Please read The Bahai Technique under Libraries if
you have not yet a chance to do so.
In the second message below Maneck accuses me of
slander, a charge she has repeatedly made with impunity
on AOL, for expressing my own opinions about how she
and Mark Foster are manipulating the TOS system to
suppress Bahais like myself who do not share her fanatic
views.
Maneck's own slander of me may be read at
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/Maneck1.htm
The tactics she and other Bahais use against AOL
members may be seen at
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/AOL.htm
I also believe she and Foster are taking advantage of AOL's
TOS system since one can email in just about anything to
it and have a TOS lodged against people. That to me consitutes
harassment and it is exactly what she and Foster have been
doing to me and others in the Bahai Forums. Their intent is
clearly to drive us out of the Forums and suppress the availability
of all information that fails to pass their rigid criteria of orthodoxy.
That I referred to Mark Foster as the "putative Forum Leader" is
not vitriol at all. It is a fact as I see it. He is neither interested in
creating a forum, a public space where all citizens may speak
freely, nor in leading but rather dominating and manipulating
discussion by harassing and driving out people of different points
of view. In my view, he does not deserve to be referred to as a
Forum Leader but has betrayed the trust placed in him by AOL.
Please note that I had requested that alt.religion.bahai and
talk.religion.bahai be added to the main menu for Newsgroups
for the Bahai Forums. It has yet to be done. My uploading of
files, which you referred to, has been suppressed by Foster
for spurious reasons seeking to conceal information from Bahais
and non-Bahais. To say that that information is available elsewhere
is to miss the point. It is NOT available on AOL and many members
will not find it on my website. It belongs also for easy convenience,
which the Libraries are intended for too, on AOL. Foster constantly
uses bogus reasons for his decisions to conceal his real intent
of censoring dissident viewpoints. Similarly, he has refused to add
a link to my website, The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of
Conscience on the main menu for Web Sites while allowing many
literal-minded fundamentalists to appear there that I and other AOL
members and Bahais find narrow, dishonest, and restricting.
I continue to believe the only solution to the censorship that Foster
has imposed on AOL is his resignation as Forum Leader or his
removal by AOL, as AOL had to remove the former putative Bahai
Forum Leader, Vahid whose real name was Edmund. Rather,
Shakespearean, really....
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
Subject: Re: alt.religion.bahai & talk.religion.bahai
Date: 2/25/1999 11:22 AM Eastern Standard Time
From: <A HREF="">Smaneck</A>
Message-id: <19990225112245.13529.00000211@ng-ch1.aol.com>
Charlotte writes:
>So.... I will ask Mark to NOT add these newsgroups if you will not agree to
>immediately remove those items placed there without permission and agree to
>stop the practice of putting them there in the future.
Dear Charlotte,
While your annoyance to Fred doing this is well taken and he is certainly
violating standard netiquette and perhaps copyright laws in forwarding other's
posts, I don't think we can oppose the addition of newsgroups because of the
unconscionable behavior of one of its members.
I think it is sufficient reason to refuse to add Mr. Glaysher's own website,
however since he has total control of its contents. Besides, it is not like he
doesn't "provide" us with that website address on a regular basis.
Hey Fred, do you have long pink ears?
warmest,
Susan Maneck
Subj:TOS - personal insult - Maneck
Date:2/26/1999 7:51:56 AM Eastern Standard Time
From:<A HREF="mailto:FG">FG</A>
To:<A HREF="mailto:TOSGeneral">TOSGeneral</A>
CC:<A HREF="mailto:TOSBoards1">TOSBoards1</A>,
<A HREF="mailto:FG@hotmail.com">FG@hotmail.com</A>
This person is consistently insulting me on the
Bahai Forums while the Forum Leader permits it,
though charging me with TOSs for all kinds of
innocuous statements.
FG@aol.com
Subject: Re: alt.religion.bahai & talk.religion.bahai
Date: 2/25/1999 11:22 AM Eastern Standard Time
From: <A HREF="">Smaneck</A>
Message-id: <19990225112245.13529.00000211@ng-ch1.aol.com>
Charlotte writes:
>So.... I will ask Mark to NOT add these newsgroups if you will not agree to
>immediately remove those items placed there without permission and agree to
>stop the practice of putting them there in the future.
Dear Charlotte,
While your annoyance to Fred doing this is well taken and he is certainly
violating standard netiquette and perhaps copyright laws in forwarding other's
posts, I don't think we can oppose the addition of newsgroups because of the
unconscionable behavior of one of its members.
I think it is sufficient reason to refuse to add Mr. Glaysher's own website,
however since he has total control of its contents. Besides, it is not like he
doesn't "provide" us with that website address on a regular basis.
Hey Fred, do you have long pink ears?
warmest,
Susan Maneck
Subj:TOS - false allegation of slander - Maneck
Date:2/26/1999 7:57:44 AM Eastern Standard Time
From:<A HREF="mailto:FG">FG</A>
To:<A HREF="mailto:TOSGeneral">TOSGeneral</A>
CC:<A HREF="mailto:TOSBoards1">TOSBoards1</A>,
<A HREF="mailto:FG@hotmail.com">FG@hotmail.com</A>
This person is constantly allowed by the Bahai
Forum Leader Mark Foster to accuse me of "slander"
with impunity. I maintain that no such thing is true.
For her references to my opinions as "garbage,"
for which the Forum Leader also looked the other way,
see
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/Maneck1.htm
Subject: Re: Folder changes being discussed
Date: 2/25/1999 11:27 PM Eastern Standard Time
From: <A HREF="">Smaneck</A>
Message-id: <19990225232704.15438.00000711@ng-fi1.aol.com>
Becky writes:
>Now, boys, let's be nice!
Dear Becky,
It is hard to be nice to someone who pretends he wants to open up the
consultation when all the time he is slandering our Forum Leader on other
lists for enforcing AOL TOS rules.
warmest,
Susan Maneck
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Monday, March 01, 1999 3:57 PM
Subject: Re: False TOSs on AOL - Bahai Forum Leader Mark Foster
Kathy Pascoe wrote in message <36fc499b.240054124@news.newsguy.com>...
>
>Deana, please don't jump on Robert either. I don't think any threats to
>shun people have come from him.
Like many of the Bahai fundamentalists here on trb,
he has accused or intimated that people were or are
covenant breakers many times during the last few years.
Skim around in www.dejanews.com or my archives for
examples. Try keyword covenant breaker etc....
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Monday, March 01, 1999 3:59 PM
Subject: Re: False TOSs on AOL - Bahai Forum Leader Mark Foster
RBCF Mark wrote in message <19990228103054.11960.00004460@ng-cg1.aol.com>...
>>You're a liar and you know it....
>
>Fred,
>
>I would be careful with those accusations. I have many remedies at my
disposal
>(which I may have considered), you know. How much money do you have?
Notice, like Maneck, when caught redhanded, the new technique
seems to be legal threats....
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/technique.htm
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Monday, March 01, 1999 4:04 PM
To: TOSBoards1; HANI72#aol.com; CRust60001#aol.com; AAli929596#aol.com;
ccrawfeild@aol.com; Mr Mahdi; Nadle; Ruletherod; Macho786#aol.com;
Member1700#aol.com; PParvin#aol.com; RayHanania@aol.com; RobertNik#aol.com;
Shaksway@aol.com; Barthaman
Subject: Re: False TOSs on AOL - Bahai Forum Leader Mark Foster
Kathy Pascoe wrote in message <37067c0d.252969591@news.newsguy.com>...
>On Sun, 28 Feb 1999 16:47:19 GMT, mirele@newsguy.com (Deana Marie
>Holmes) wrote:
>
>> On 28 Feb 1999 15:30:54 GMT, rbcfmark@aol.com (RBCF Mark) wrote:
>>
>> >>You're a liar and you know it....
>> >
>> >I would be careful with those accusations. I have many remedies at my
disposal
>> >(which I may have considered), you know. How much money do you have?
>>
>> <snort>
>>
>> I'd like to see this one played out in court.
>>
>> It would be a black eye for the Baha'i Faith.
>
>No, it might be a black eye for Mark. It might be a black eye for the
>Administrative Order if they supply the attorney.
The AO has lots of hack Iranian "attorneys" who have no
respect for legal and political system. I would find it most
eloquently amusing for the likes of Maneck, Foster, Towfiq,
Hyman, and such other fanatics to attempt to redeem their
"good" names in court. I doubt any jury of 12 would look at
the evidence on www.dejanews.com or my archives and
rule in their favor....
>People in lots of newsgroups make noises about attorneys that they never
>follow though on, so I'm of the opinion that threats about taking legal
>action shouldn't be posted at all.
>
>(In the news.admin.net-abuse.* hierarchy, spammers get mocked about
>their 'cartooneys', since the 'attorneys' they threaten people with are
>invariably non-existent.)
>
>To Mark: stay above the fray. If someone calls you names repeatedly,
>and you don't respond at that level, or with legal threats you've no
>intention of carrying out, that person tars him or herself more than you
>are tarred (my opinion, of course, YMMV, yadda yadda).
Far from tar, he has lied when he claimed he was not
targetting me nor be unfair in his abuse of the AOL TOS
system. Several other AOL members have emailed me.
I'm sure they'd be happy to appear in court on my behalf too....
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
>--
>Kathy Pascoe ~ kathy@scconsult.com (at home)
>Confused about newsgroups? Visit <news:news.newusers.questions>
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Monday, March 01, 1999 4:04 PM
Subject: Re: False TOSs on AOL - Bahai Forum Leader Mark Foster
Kathy Pascoe wrote in message <37067c0d.252969591@news.newsguy.com>...
>On Sun, 28 Feb 1999 16:47:19 GMT, mirele@newsguy.com (Deana Marie
>Holmes) wrote:
>
>> On 28 Feb 1999 15:30:54 GMT, rbcfmark@aol.com (RBCF Mark) wrote:
>>
>> >>You're a liar and you know it....
>> >
>> >I would be careful with those accusations. I have many remedies at my
disposal
>> >(which I may have considered), you know. How much money do you have?
>>
>> <snort>
>>
>> I'd like to see this one played out in court.
>>
>> It would be a black eye for the Baha'i Faith.
>
>No, it might be a black eye for Mark. It might be a black eye for the
>Administrative Order if they supply the attorney.
The AO has lots of hack Iranian "attorneys" who have no
respect for legal and political system. I would find it most
eloquently amusing for the likes of Maneck, Foster, Towfiq,
Hyman, and such other fanatics to attempt to redeem their
"good" names in court. I doubt any jury of 12 would look at
the evidence on www.dejanews.com or my archives and
rule in their favor....
>People in lots of newsgroups make noises about attorneys that they never
>follow though on, so I'm of the opinion that threats about taking legal
>action shouldn't be posted at all.
>
>(In the news.admin.net-abuse.* hierarchy, spammers get mocked about
>their 'cartooneys', since the 'attorneys' they threaten people with are
>invariably non-existent.)
>
>To Mark: stay above the fray. If someone calls you names repeatedly,
>and you don't respond at that level, or with legal threats you've no
>intention of carrying out, that person tars him or herself more than you
>are tarred (my opinion, of course, YMMV, yadda yadda).
Far from tar, he has lied when he claimed he was not
targetting me nor be unfair in his abuse of the AOL TOS
system. Several other AOL members have emailed me.
I'm sure they'd be happy to appear in court on my behalf too....
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
>--
>Kathy Pascoe ~ kathy@scconsult.com (at home)
>Confused about newsgroups? Visit <news:news.newusers.questions>
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Monday, March 01, 1999 4:07 PM
To: TOSBoards1; HANI72#aol.com; CRust60001#aol.com; AAli929596#aol.com;
ccrawfeild@aol.com; Mr Mahdi; Nadle; Ruletherod; Macho786#aol.com;
Member1700#aol.com; PParvin#aol.com; RayHanania@aol.com; RobertNik#aol.com;
Shaksway@aol.com; Barthaman
Subject: Re: False TOSs on AOL - Bahai Forum Leader Mark Foster
RBCF Mark wrote in message <19990228171349.13527.00006519@ng-ch1.aol.com>...
>Hi, Kathy -
>
>I appreciate the input, and you are probably right about staying out of the
>fray. However, I don't say things that I don't mean.
>
>Of course, considering one's options doesn't *necessarily* mean that one
will
>pursue them. And there is nothing to be gained by rushing into such things.
As
>I see it, time is on my side. ;-)
>
>Cordially, Mark Foster
You're a liar. You claimed you have not targetted me, and you
have.... Others have thought so too on AOL. You don't deserve
to be called a "Forum Moderator." You're obviously censoring
for the Bahai fundamentalists there, as has been done by
others on soc.religion.bahai, bahai-discuss, and so forth.
Your specious excuses twisting the TOS rules only redounds
to your shame....
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Monday, March 01, 1999 4:07 PM
Subject: Re: False TOSs on AOL - Bahai Forum Leader Mark Foster
RBCF Mark wrote in message <19990228171349.13527.00006519@ng-ch1.aol.com>...
>Hi, Kathy -
>
>I appreciate the input, and you are probably right about staying out of the
>fray. However, I don't say things that I don't mean.
>
>Of course, considering one's options doesn't *necessarily* mean that one
will
>pursue them. And there is nothing to be gained by rushing into such things.
As
>I see it, time is on my side. ;-)
>
>Cordially, Mark Foster
You're a liar. You claimed you have not targetted me, and you
have.... Others have thought so too on AOL. You don't deserve
to be called a "Forum Moderator." You're obviously censoring
for the Bahai fundamentalists there, as has been done by
others on soc.religion.bahai, bahai-discuss, and so forth.
Your specious excuses twisting the TOS rules only redounds
to your shame....
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Monday, March 01, 1999 4:10 PM
Subject: Re: Baha'i Schools of Thought
RBCF Mark wrote in message <19990227231928.15440.00001973@ng-fi1.aol.com>...
>Hi, Juan -
>
>I agree that the Baha'i community needs to be more tolerant of diversity.
It
>saddens me that we are so far from conforming to the standard that
`Abdul-Baha
>taught us.
How about you Mark and your constant hatch jobs on
people on AOL? I find it disgusting that you come in
here and pretend to liberality of motive....
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Monday, March 01, 1999 4:12 PM
Subject: Re: Baha'i Schools of Thought
RBCF Mark wrote in message <19990227232123.15440.00001976@ng-fi1.aol.com>...
>I think that doctrinal unity means that we accept the essentials (whatever
they
>are <g>). However, I have also observed a tendency of people to simply echo
>each other, which strikes me as a lack of critical thought.
You're obviously regularly exploiting this pronounced pattern
of the fundamentalist lackies on AOL.... You know you can
count on them to chime in when you need them to shore up
your deceitful attacks that pretend to be supporting the TOS
rules.
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Monday, March 01, 1999 4:21 PM
Subject: Re: Open plea to Fred
Well, Paul, I know you mean well, and I respect your point
of view. Yes, we have disagreed in the past and yes you
have been candid. You're entitled to your opinions.
While thanking you for your many contributions that helped
create talk.religion.bahai, we'll have to agree to disagree,
as they say....
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
K. Paul Johnson wrote in message <36dac2f3.0@vlinsvr>...
>Dear Fred,
>
>Since I'm being accused of unfairness for criticizing Saman for
>being consistently aggressive in tone (which he's since stopped),
>but allegedly ignoring your level of aggression (although you
>know I've commented negatively on it several times) I want to
>make something perfectly clear. While I think you are on the
>right side of the issues, your demeanor is a serious detriment
>to the message you are trying to convey. You come across as if
>your outrage valve has been stuck in the fully open position for
>a very long time. Communicating in a nonstop tone of tirade,
>personal denunciation, ranting, etc. makes people take you a lot
>less seriously than if you said the same things differently. You
>can see that in the case of others; can't you see it in your own?
>You are hurting the cause you profess to serve.
>
>If being around Baha'is in cyberspace really makes you this stressed out,
>manically aggressive, whatever it is, and you can't change that,
>it would be best to avoid them. Nothing, absolutely nothing, is
>worth spending a large portion of your life in a state of
>hyperarousal like this. Not only is it bad for one's mental
>health, it is very dangerous physically.
>
>Please calm down, for your own sake and for the cause of open
>exploration of the merits and demerits of the Baha'i religion and
>administration. Shouting does no one any good.
>
>Sincerely,
>
>Paul
>
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 1999 8:15 AM
Subject: Re: False TOSs on AOL - Bahai Forum Leader Mark Foster
Vinson Jamir wrote in message <36DB5708.437E577E@bellsouth.net>...
>Dear Milissa,
> Seems to me that Fred refers to behaviors of which he disapproves
rather than
>nationalities and races. I have yet to see any critical comments about
Iranian
>culture, language, and history emanating from Fred. He simply
disapproves of
>the behavior of some Iranians within the organization of the Baha'i Faith.
I
>would hope the term "Iranian bashing" would imply something more than such
limited
>criticisms.
Thank you for your more nuanced understanding of
what I'm saying. It is the "behavior of some Iranians"
within the Bahai Faith that I disapprove of and have
always said so. There are exceptions. The general
tendency, though, is not pleasant to watch nor
experience, and quite distructive to the Bahai Faith....
> To be a qualified "basher" of any particular nationality or ethnicity,
it
>should be required that the alleged bashing involve denigration of the
entire
>ethnicity as such, not merely that some of its members exhibit certain
behaviors
>within one particular organized religious movement. Consider, for example,
how
>many times we hear about Italian crime families. Imagine someone being
accused of
>racism and prejudice for merely mentioning the existence of Italian crime
>families! It is behavior we hear about from Fred, repeatedly, but not
>condemnation of entire nationalities as such.
> I'll wager there are certain aspects of Iranian culture and society
Fred
Quite deeply, actually.... I've spent considerable parts of my
adult life studying the Bahai Writings and the classical Iranian
writers. If I had no respect for Iranians per se, I would certainly
not have bothered. The accusation of racism against me is but
merely another form of the Bahai Technique, in my opinion....
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
>really likes.
>
>vinson
>
>
>Milissa Boyer Kafes wrote:
>
>> Hi Frederick--
>>
>> you wrote:
>> (snip)
>>
>> > The AO has lots of hack Iranian "attorneys" who have no
>> > respect for legal and political system. I would find it most
>> > eloquently amusing for the likes of Maneck, Foster, Towfiq,
>> > Hyman, and such other fanatics to attempt to redeem their
>> > "good" names in court. I doubt any jury of 12 would look at
>> > the evidence on www.dejanews.com or my archives and
>> > rule in their favor....
>>
>> PLEASE Frederick, stop with the Iranian bashing! I know so many Iranians
(both
>> Baha'i and non-Baha'i)who are so cool.
>>
>
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 1999 8:19 AM
Subject: Re: Draper (was: "every planet hath its creatures.")
I would be quite interested in reading Draper's book as
well. I have looked for it in the past but was unable at the
time to find a copy of it. It should be fascinating reading
as a crucial text influencing Abdu-l'Baha's intellectual development.
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
jrcole@umich.edu wrote in message <7bfu6b$145$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>Yeah, we have a copy of the 1873? edition here at U-M. I'm going to get it
>out and have it photocopied (that would be more like $20!) I have a
scanner
>with an Automatic Document Feed, so I can just put it right through.
Anybody
>who does any serious scanning should have an ADF. They aren't expensive
any
>more.
>
>cheers Juan
>
>
>
>Juan Cole, History, U of Michigan
>https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai.htm
>Buy *Modernity and the Millennium: The Genesis of the Baha'i Faith* at:
>https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN%3D0231110812/002-4036721-8058448
>
>-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
>https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 1999 7:07 AM
Subject: Re: False TOSs on AOL - Bahai Forum Leader Mark Foster
The illustrious Bahai Forum Leader on AOL Mark Foster commenting
on the request for a Folder titled Bahai Censorship:
>>Several people said that they wanted it. So, I thought that we could give
it
>>a try. If problems result because of it, it can always be removed later.
FG writes:
>So is this an example of Bahai love and tolerance? Here we appear to have
the
>real motives of what appears to be the Forum Censor, not Leader....
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG@aol.com[SMTP:FG@aol.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 1999 7:35 AM
To: TOSGeneral@aol.com
Cc: FG@hotmail.com
Subject: Insult
This person is insulting me by referring to me and
my ideas and posts as "bizarre" and in a derogatory
fashion.
Subject: Re: Bahai Censorship Folder
Date: 3/2/1999 5:02 PM Eastern Standard Time
From: <A HREF="aol://3548:WScott1995">WScott1995</A>
Message-id: <19990302170211.29244.00002443@ng31.aol.com>
Susan,
Fred said: >>>Do you support the terrorist tactics of Bahai fundamentalism?<<<
You said: >>>Did you see this? <<<
Nope, not until you posted it. I don't read Fred's posts usually, especially
when he posts ten at a time. They are too bizarre and life is too short. :)
>>>Now we know why Fred posts our private correspondence. He's terrorized by
us!<<<<
LOL! Yes, we're pretty terrible, everyone knows that! ;) <g>
_____________________________
Love and peace, Wendy--------<-@
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 1999 9:05 AM
Subject: Re: Love bombing
Dale Grider wrote in message <36DC7ABF.17E4AAC7@bellsouth.net>...
The problem of sin
>and its eternal consequences is thus swept under the spiritual carpet.
As a Bahai, I couldn't agree more.... Many of my fellow
Bahais live in a dreamy little state of mind that relegates
the dark realities of man's human nature to non-existence.
However, I don't believe the Bahai Writings neglect the
reality of sin and evil....
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, March 04, 1999 7:45 AM
To: help@onelist.com
Subject: false subscriptions to onelist.com
This morning I found 475 messages in my inbox
mainly from several onelist.com maling lists. I
realize you have policies against this and don't
blame your service. I would appreciate your help
in unsubscribing my email from all of your lists or
determining what false email I've been entered as
or whatever you need to do to stop the bombardment.
I've included three sample headers and messages.
Thanks.
FG
FG@hotmail.com
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From: Shannon Taylor <taylor@netpathway.com> Save Address Block Sender
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Subject: [chatover21] Still A Little Girl
Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 19:02:14 -0500
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From: Shannon Taylor <taylor@netpathway.com>
Sarah I love the poems you sent ..here is one you may like...
The troubles outside seem so far away.
The fighting of wars, making a world decay.
But here in my private little world,
I feel safe and secure, like a little girl.
But in my private retreat it's great.
So different from the world outside, a world full of hate.
I find only peace and love to surround me here.
The feeling of goodness like God is near.
So let me be a little girl so small,
Then I won't have to worry at all.
I'll stay here where I'm safe from the world.
I'll face tomorrow when I'm not a little girl.
I'll settle down with a day dream or two,
After the work is all done and the house is all clean.
Feeling like a little girl, that is hiding from time,
Knowing that I'm grown up in body and mind.
But WAIT, I can't give up my private little world.
Maybe I'll just give up being a little girl.
Life is hard when you are a grown up, it's so much colder.
Oh well, I'll worry about it tomorrow...when I'm older.
© Shannon Taylor
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From: "Jeff Wilhelmi" <jwilh007@prairie.lakes.com>
Complex sounds more like duplex. But who loves ya baby??? Jeff
-----Original Message-----
From: Bluespearl@aol.com <Bluespearl@aol.com>
To: 40PlusSingles@onelist.com <40PlusSingles@onelist.com>
Date: Wednesday, March 03, 1999 2:27 PM
Subject: [40PlusSingles] Re: Oh, Yeah....
>From: Bluespearl@aol.com
>
><< What is it, I send in my pic, next we go from # 1 to # 5, people on list
> leave. Is it me or
> just my damn complex again???? Jeff from Minnesota >>
>
>Ha Ha Jeff! I thought I was the one with the inferiority complex....
>
>Abby
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Gary,
The only method that works is to rename (or mark as hidden, or delete) all
instances of WIN.COM on your hard drives, and then run setup from the DOS
prompt.
Info courtesy of Sean Erwins's Windows 98 FAQ at
https://www.listmaker.net/win98/index.html#upgrade .
Hope this helps!
Tim Klymkow
----- Original Message -----
From: Gary <ggshaw@uq.net.au>
Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 1999 4:55 AM
Subject: PCWorks: Error SU0168 uprgrade win95 to win98 with oem win98 cd.
>Problem: Win95b installed. Want to
>upgrade to Win98. I only have Win98 OEM
>CD. I get the following message after
>Win98 has copied temp files to begin
>install.
>"Your computer has an operating system
>installed, which cannot be upgraded by
>this version.
>
>"error SUO168"
>
<snip>
============= PCWorks Mailing List ===============
Visit Our Random "Member HomePage of the Week":
Shelley Gaffney's "Shelley's Money Making Opportunities"
https://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Labyrinth/9790/
PCWorks WebPage https://www.telesouth1.com/~pcworks
==============================================
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, March 04, 1999 9:28 AM
To: abuse@usa.net
Subject: listserv spam from testcase2@usa.net
Dear abuse@usa.net
Someone has been using an account at testcase2@usa.net
for nearly a month now to bombard my FG@hotmail.com
account with false subscriptions to listservs. Two listserv
adminstrators at Indiana.edu have helped a lot to figure out
where it's coming from and I include their messages below
along with the header and message of one piece of mailing
showing testcase2@usa.net in the FROM.
If you could turn off that account completely it would really help.
I also ask you to identify to me who the person is behind the spam
so that I might be able to do something about it. They've begun
a second wave of attacks just yesterday and today from lists
at www.onelist.com whom I've notified but seem to still be
passing many of the messages, though not all, through the
testcase2@usa.net address. The last message here shows
that address again.
I had 475 messages in my inbox this morning most from
this account testcase2@usa.net
Thanks in advance for anything you can do to stop
this.
Desperately in need of your help,
FG
FG@hotmail.com
-----Original Message-----
From: LISTSERV Administrator <lstadmin@indiana.edu>
To: FG <FG@hotmail.com>
Cc: List Administrator <list-admin@indiana.edu>; stephenl@indiana.edu
<stephenl@indiana.edu>
Date: Friday, February 26, 1999 10:32 AM
Subject: Re: false listserv subscription
>Frederick and Larry,
>
>Do you anything about the subscription testcase2@usa.net? If I'm
>reading the headers right it looks like the message sent to Frederick
>came from that address.
>
>Larry -- if you want to test this you could set testcase2 to nomail and
>we could see if that stops the flow of mail to Frederick.
>
>Peg Bassett
>UITS Messaging Team
>
>On Mon, 22 Feb 1999, FG wrote:
>
>> Sorry it's taken me a week or so to reply. I'm still receiving
>> all the messages posted to your listservs. I'm going to try
>> to attach them and insert them in here to give you the
>> complete headers in one way or another.
>>
>> I really appreciate your help. My account is completely
>> overwhelmed by all this junk mail and takes several
>> minutes to download the few legitimate messages.
>>
>> FG
>> FG@hotmail.com
>>
>>
>> >From testcase2@USA.NET Mon Feb 22 08:25:12 1999
>> Received: from [204.68.24.139] by hotmail.com (1.1) with SMTP id
>> MHotMailB89ACFE724011D101708CCC44188B9B990; Mon Feb 22 08:25:12 1999
>> Received: (qmail 18627 invoked by uid 0); 22 Feb 1999 12:28:53 -0000
>> Received: from listserv.indiana.edu [129.79.5.189] by mx02 via mtad (2.6)
>> with ESMTP id 831DBVmoK0146M02; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 12:14:36 GMT
>> Received: from piano (129.79.5.189) by listserv.indiana.edu (LSMTP for
>> Windows NT v1.1a) with SMTP id <0.F38FDCE0@listserv.indiana.edu>; Mon, 22
>> Feb 1999 7:14:14 -0500
>> Received: from LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU by LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU
(LISTSERV-TCP/IP
>> release 1.8c) with spool id 17591351 for
>> DEEP-SOUTH-ROOTS-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU; Mon, 22 Feb 1999
07:14:12
>> -0500
>> Received: from imo12.mx.aol.com by listserv.indiana.edu (LSMTP for
Windows
>> NT
>> v1.1a) with SMTP id <0.F2CC3EC0@listserv.indiana.edu>; Mon, 22
Feb
>> 1999 7:14:12 -0500
>> Received: from BGeoT@aol.com by imo12.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id ODDLa24348
>> for
>> <deep-south-roots-l@listserv.indiana.edu>; Mon, 22 Feb 1999
>> 07:14:08
>> -0500 (EST)
>> Mime-Version: 1.0
>> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>> Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
>> X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 205
>> Message-ID: <7f98222.36d14a10@aol.com>
>> Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 07:14:08 EST
>> Reply-To: BGeoT@AOL.COM
>> Sender: "A discussion list for genealogy in AL, GA, FL and MS"
>> <DEEP-SOUTH-ROOTS-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
>> From: George Turnipseed <BGeoT@AOL.COM>
>> Subject: [D-S] JOHNSTON&CALDWELL-HancockCoMS-1800s
>> To: DEEP-SOUTH-ROOTS-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU
>>
>> I am searching for info, ancestors of James Johnston born c1810 in NC,
>> married Eleonore ___ c1830 Hancock Co MS. Their son, George W Johnston
>> born 1841 married Victoria V Caldwell.
>> Please contact by e-mail: BGeoT@aol.com
>> George Turnipseed
>>
>> -----------------------------------------------
>> List problems?
>> Check
>> your WELCOME message FIRST
>> https://php.indiana.edu/~stephenl/problems.htm SECOND
>> then contact stephenL@indiana.edu
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: List Administrator <list-admin@indiana.edu>
>> To: Stephens, Larry V <stephenl@indiana.edu>; 'FG'
>> <FG@hotmail.com>; 'lstadmin@othello.ucs.indiana.edu'
>> <lstadmin@othello.ucs.indiana.edu>
>> Cc: 'help@hotmail.com' <help@hotmail.com>; 'support@hotmail.com'
>> <support@hotmail.com>
>> Date: Tuesday, February 16, 1999 12:49 PM
>> Subject: RE: false listserv subscription
>>
>>
>> >I've searched back through all of the LISTSERV log files for February I
did
>> >not find a subscription request from Mr. Glaysher for the
>> Deep-South-Roots-L
>> >list. I also did not find any indication that mail to this list was
>> >distributed to
>> >the address FG@hotmail.com.
>> >
>> >Mr. Glaysher -- are you still receiving list mail from our server? If
yes,
>> >could
>> >you please forward a copy of a recent message, with full headers to me?
>> >
>> >
>> >Peggy Bassett
>> >University Information Technology Services
>> >Indiana University, Bloomington
>> >bassett@indiana.edu
>> >>
>> >> owner-java-com@DISCUSS.MICROSOFT.COM
>> >> Java-COM@DISCUSS.MICROSOFT.COM
>> >>
>> >> LINGUIST@LINGUIST.LDC.UPENN.EDU
>> >> LISTSERV@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU
>> >> linguist@linguistlist.org
>> >>
>> >> PENNSYLVANIA-ROOTS-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU
>> >> owner-pennsylvania-roots-l@listserv.indiana.edu
>> >> DEEP-SOUTH-ROOTS-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU
>> >>
>> >> MTG-STRATEGY-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
>> >> PLI-Y2KLAW@PLI.EDU
>> >> owner-pli-y2klaw@pli.edu
>>
>>
>
>
From: "Tim Klymkow" <klymkow@a-znet.com> Save Address Block Sender
Reply-To: pcworks@MailingList.net
To: <pcworks@MailingList.net>
Subject: Re: PCWorks: Error SU0168 uprgrade win95 to win98 with oem win98
cd.
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 17:40:58 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
From testcase2@usa.net Wed Mar 3 14:49:21 1999
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Gary,
The only method that works is to rename (or mark as hidden, or delete) all
instances of WIN.COM on your hard drives, and then run setup from the DOS
prompt.
Info courtesy of Sean Erwins's Windows 98 FAQ at
https://www.listmaker.net/win98/index.html#upgrade .
Hope this helps!
Tim Klymkow
----- Original Message -----
From: Gary <ggshaw@uq.net.au>
Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 1999 4:55 AM
Subject: PCWorks: Error SU0168 uprgrade win95 to win98 with oem win98 cd.
>Problem: Win95b installed. Want to
>upgrade to Win98. I only have Win98 OEM
>CD. I get the following message after
>Win98 has copied temp files to begin
>install.
>"Your computer has an operating system
>installed, which cannot be upgraded by
>this version.
>
>"error SUO168"
>
<snip>
============= PCWorks Mailing List ===============
Visit Our Random "Member HomePage of the Week":
Shelley Gaffney's "Shelley's Money Making Opportunities"
https://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Labyrinth/9790/
PCWorks WebPage https://www.telesouth1.com/~pcworks
==============================================
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, March 04, 1999 9:54 AM
Subject: Re: False TOSs on AOL - Bahai Forum Leader Mark Foster
Vinson Jamir wrote in message <36DE126C.100D27E2@bellsouth.net>...
He loves
>Persian literature and maybe even certain Persian dishes,
"Love" is too unqualified of a word. While I respect Rumi and other
classical Iranian poets, they fail, as Yeats once said of an
idealistic poet, to have a Vision of Evil.... I was especially struck
by this once reading the Mathnawi and simply put it aside and
have never had any desire to pick it up again. Much Bahai
"literature" strikes me the same way....
Koreshe bademjan.
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, March 04, 1999 10:07 AM
To: abuse@mindspring.net
Subject: mindspring spammer
Please help stop the person who is spamming me with
false listserv subscriptions. They may be originating
from mindspring.com or usa.net. My note to usa.net
should explain the situation to you. The last message
here contains reference to mindspring.com:
Thank you.
FG
FG@hotmail.com
Dear abuse@usa.net
Someone has been using an account at testcase2@usa.net
for nearly a month now to bombard my FG@hotmail.com
account with false subscriptions to listservs. Two listserv
adminstrators at Indiana.edu have helped a lot to figure out
where it's coming from and I include their messages below
along with the header and message of one piece of mailing
showing testcase2@usa.net in the FROM.
If you could turn off that account completely it would really help.
I also ask you to identify to me who the person is behind the spam
so that I might be able to do something about it. They've begun
a second wave of attacks just yesterday and today from lists
at www.onelist.com whom I've notified but seem to still be
passing many of the messages, though not all, through the
testcase2@usa.net address. The last message here shows
that address again.
I had 475 messages in my inbox this morning most from
this account testcase2@usa.net
Thanks in advance for anything you can do to stop
this.
Desperately in need of your help,
FG
FG@hotmail.com
-----Original Message-----
From: LISTSERV Administrator <lstadmin@indiana.edu>
To: FG <FG@hotmail.com>
Cc: List Administrator <list-admin@indiana.edu>; stephenl@indiana.edu
<stephenl@indiana.edu>
Date: Friday, February 26, 1999 10:32 AM
Subject: Re: false listserv subscription
>Frederick and Larry,
>
>Do you anything about the subscription testcase2@usa.net? If I'm
>reading the headers right it looks like the message sent to Frederick
>came from that address.
>
>Larry -- if you want to test this you could set testcase2 to nomail and
>we could see if that stops the flow of mail to Frederick.
>
>Peg Bassett
>UITS Messaging Team
>
>On Mon, 22 Feb 1999, FG wrote:
>
>> Sorry it's taken me a week or so to reply. I'm still receiving
>> all the messages posted to your listservs. I'm going to try
>> to attach them and insert them in here to give you the
>> complete headers in one way or another.
>>
>> I really appreciate your help. My account is completely
>> overwhelmed by all this junk mail and takes several
>> minutes to download the few legitimate messages.
>>
>> FG
>> FG@hotmail.com
>>
>>
>> >From testcase2@USA.NET Mon Feb 22 08:25:12 1999
>> Received: from [204.68.24.139] by hotmail.com (1.1) with SMTP id
>> MHotMailB89ACFE724011D101708CCC44188B9B990; Mon Feb 22 08:25:12 1999
>> Received: (qmail 18627 invoked by uid 0); 22 Feb 1999 12:28:53 -0000
>> Received: from listserv.indiana.edu [129.79.5.189] by mx02 via mtad (2.6)
>> with ESMTP id 831DBVmoK0146M02; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 12:14:36 GMT
>> Received: from piano (129.79.5.189) by listserv.indiana.edu (LSMTP for
>> Windows NT v1.1a) with SMTP id <0.F38FDCE0@listserv.indiana.edu>; Mon, 22
>> Feb 1999 7:14:14 -0500
>> Received: from LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU by LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU
(LISTSERV-TCP/IP
>> release 1.8c) with spool id 17591351 for
>> DEEP-SOUTH-ROOTS-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU; Mon, 22 Feb 1999
07:14:12
>> -0500
>> Received: from imo12.mx.aol.com by listserv.indiana.edu (LSMTP for
Windows
>> NT
>> v1.1a) with SMTP id <0.F2CC3EC0@listserv.indiana.edu>; Mon, 22
Feb
>> 1999 7:14:12 -0500
>> Received: from BGeoT@aol.com by imo12.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id ODDLa24348
>> for
>> <deep-south-roots-l@listserv.indiana.edu>; Mon, 22 Feb 1999
>> 07:14:08
>> -0500 (EST)
>> Mime-Version: 1.0
>> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>> Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
>> X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 205
>> Message-ID: <7f98222.36d14a10@aol.com>
>> Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 07:14:08 EST
>> Reply-To: BGeoT@AOL.COM
>> Sender: "A discussion list for genealogy in AL, GA, FL and MS"
>> <DEEP-SOUTH-ROOTS-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
>> From: George Turnipseed <BGeoT@AOL.COM>
>> Subject: [D-S] JOHNSTON&CALDWELL-HancockCoMS-1800s
>> To: DEEP-SOUTH-ROOTS-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU
>>
>> I am searching for info, ancestors of James Johnston born c1810 in NC,
>> married Eleonore ___ c1830 Hancock Co MS. Their son, George W Johnston
>> born 1841 married Victoria V Caldwell.
>> Please contact by e-mail: BGeoT@aol.com
>> George Turnipseed
>>
>> -----------------------------------------------
>> List problems?
>> Check
>> your WELCOME message FIRST
>> https://php.indiana.edu/~stephenl/problems.htm SECOND
>> then contact stephenL@indiana.edu
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: List Administrator <list-admin@indiana.edu>
>> To: Stephens, Larry V <stephenl@indiana.edu>; 'FG'
>> <FG@hotmail.com>; 'lstadmin@othello.ucs.indiana.edu'
>> <lstadmin@othello.ucs.indiana.edu>
>> Cc: 'help@hotmail.com' <help@hotmail.com>; 'support@hotmail.com'
>> <support@hotmail.com>
>> Date: Tuesday, February 16, 1999 12:49 PM
>> Subject: RE: false listserv subscription
>>
>>
>> >I've searched back through all of the LISTSERV log files for February I
did
>> >not find a subscription request from Mr. Glaysher for the
>> Deep-South-Roots-L
>> >list. I also did not find any indication that mail to this list was
>> >distributed to
>> >the address FG@hotmail.com.
>> >
>> >Mr. Glaysher -- are you still receiving list mail from our server? If
yes,
>> >could
>> >you please forward a copy of a recent message, with full headers to me?
>> >
>> >
>> >Peggy Bassett
>> >University Information Technology Services
>> >Indiana University, Bloomington
>> >bassett@indiana.edu
>> >>
>> >> owner-java-com@DISCUSS.MICROSOFT.COM
>> >> Java-COM@DISCUSS.MICROSOFT.COM
>> >>
>> >> LINGUIST@LINGUIST.LDC.UPENN.EDU
>> >> LISTSERV@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU
>> >> linguist@linguistlist.org
>> >>
>> >> PENNSYLVANIA-ROOTS-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU
>> >> owner-pennsylvania-roots-l@listserv.indiana.edu
>> >> DEEP-SOUTH-ROOTS-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU
>> >>
>> >> MTG-STRATEGY-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
>> >> PLI-Y2KLAW@PLI.EDU
>> >> owner-pli-y2klaw@pli.edu
>>
>>
>
>
From: "Tim Klymkow" <klymkow@a-znet.com> Save Address Block Sender
Reply-To: pcworks@MailingList.net
To: <pcworks@MailingList.net>
Subject: Re: PCWorks: Error SU0168 uprgrade win95 to win98 with oem win98
cd.
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 17:40:58 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
From testcase2@usa.net Wed Mar 3 14:49:21 1999
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Gary,
The only method that works is to rename (or mark as hidden, or delete) all
instances of WIN.COM on your hard drives, and then run setup from the DOS
prompt.
Info courtesy of Sean Erwins's Windows 98 FAQ at
https://www.listmaker.net/win98/index.html#upgrade .
Hope this helps!
Tim Klymkow
----- Original Message -----
From: Gary <ggshaw@uq.net.au>
Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 1999 4:55 AM
Subject: PCWorks: Error SU0168 uprgrade win95 to win98 with oem win98 cd.
>Problem: Win95b installed. Want to
>upgrade to Win98. I only have Win98 OEM
>CD. I get the following message after
>Win98 has copied temp files to begin
>install.
>"Your computer has an operating system
>installed, which cannot be upgraded by
>this version.
>
>"error SUO168"
>
<snip>
============= PCWorks Mailing List ===============
Visit Our Random "Member HomePage of the Week":
Shelley Gaffney's "Shelley's Money Making Opportunities"
https://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Labyrinth/9790/
PCWorks WebPage https://www.telesouth1.com/~pcworks
==============================================
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From: "Classify98.com" <dufrinr@mindspring.com>
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From: FG@aol.com[SMTP:FG@aol.com]
Sent: Thursday, March 04, 1999 11:01 AM
To: TOSGeneral@aol.com
Cc: TOSBoards1@aol.com; FG@hotmail.com
Subject: TOS Bahai Forums/Message Boards/for Non Bahais
This person attacks the sincerity of my religious
convictions:
Subject: Fred on being a Bahá'í
Date: 3/3/1999 11:40 AM Eastern Standard Time
From: <A HREF="aol://3548:Arhil">Arhil</A>
Message-id: <19990303114024.00290.00002884@ng-fd1.aol.com>
<<As a MEMBER OF THE BAHAI FAITH for over 23 YEARS,>>
Fred -
You make a big point, both in these folders & in your web site, about how
long you've been a Bahá'í & how devoted you are to the Faith. If this is true,
then I have a question for you - Why do you have links on your web site to
Christian & Muslim sites which declare Bahá'u'lláh to be a false prophet & the
Bahá'í Faith to be a corruption of true religion (I'm speaking specifically of
"Bahá'í Christian Fireside Letters" & "Answering Bahá'u'lláh")?
This is not consistent w/ your claims of devotion.
In love and brotherhood,
Roy
----------
From: FG@aol.com[SMTP:FG@aol.com]
Sent: Thursday, March 04, 1999 11:06 AM
To: TOSGeneral@aol.com
Cc: TOSBoards1@aol.com; FG@hotmail.com
Subject: TOS BAhai Forums/Message Boards/For Non-BAhais
This person is threatening me in a manner that only Bahais
can do to other Bahais and which non-Bahais may entirely
fail to perceive: He's intimating I'm disloyal to the Bahai
Faith and its teachings and therefore a "covenant breaker,"
the worst accusation a Bahai can make of another. I request
that you place a TOS on his account for this coercive tactic.
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
Subject: PS: Fred on being a Bahá'í
Date: 3/3/1999 2:46 PM Eastern Standard Time
From: <A HREF="aol://3548:Arhil">Arhil</A>
Message-id: <19990303144610.28354.00002877@ng117.aol.com>
Fred -
As a further note, the "Answering Bahá'u'lláh" web site displays a copy of
Bahá'u'lláh's picture. The Universal House of Justice has given guidance on
this matter:
"Concerning the question of display of the photograph of Baha'u'llah, the
Guardian's instructions were that this should be done only with the utmost
reverence, and then only on special occasions."
(From a letter dated 1 August 17 written by the Universal House of Justice to
an individual believer)
"It would be good to advise the young Persian believer who has this picture
that, while we do not wish to suggest that he should remove the photograph
from his book, it would be inappropriate for him to show it to others in a
casual manner. As you know, the photograph of Baha'u'llah is very precious and
it should be handled with due reverence and respect."
(From a letter dated 7 February 1972 written by the Universal House of Justice
to an individual believer)
"The portraits of the Bab and Baha'u'llah should be shown infrequently and on
very special occasions, such as a special observance connected with an event
intimately associated with the Forerunner or Founder of our Faith.
"We do not think that the regular National Convention is such a special
occasion, and we feel that the privilege of displaying these very precious
portraits should not be abused."
(From a letter dated 12 July 1973 written by the Universal House of Justice to
the National Spiritual Assembly of Panama)
Obviously, the creators of the web site had no such concerns regarding
reverence. That someone professing to be a Bahá'í would create a link to this
site on his own web site doesn't speak well for that person's profession of
devotion to the Cause of Bahá'u'lláh.
In love and brotherhood,
Roy
"Thy Name is my healing, O my God,
and remembrance of Thee is my remedy."
- Bahá'u'lláh
----------
From: FG@aol.com[SMTP:FG@aol.com]
Sent: Thursday, March 04, 1999 11:09 AM
To: TOSGeneral@aol.com
Cc: TOSBoards1@aol.com; FG@hotmail.com
Subject: TOS Bahai Forums/Message Boards/For Non-Bahais
This person is also intimating that I'm a covenant breaker
and therefore a heretic. As a Bahai in good standing for
more than 23 years, I find this insulting and request that
you place a TOS on his account.
Subject: Re: PS: Fred on being a Bahá'í
Date: 3/3/1999 3:23 PM Eastern Standard Time
From: <A HREF="aol://3548:Bennachti">Bennachti</A>
Message-id: <19990303152323.15538.00002757@ng96.aol.com>
<< That someone professing to be a Bahá'í would create a link to this site on
his own web site doesn't speak well for that person's profession of devotion
to the Cause of Bahá'u'lláh. >>
Roy,
Of course there is a big difference between being a Baha'i, and being "a
member of the Baha'i Faith". The person who you quoted just said he is "a
member". 'Abdul-Baha was clear about what the qualities of a true Baha'i
are.
True Baha'is believe in peace and unity, love, harmony, friendliness and
fellowship with their fellow believers and humankind in general. They also
engage themselves in service to humankind. The absence of those qualities
shows a lack of Baha'i spirit, which is central to our Faith.
No matter how much some people offer their love and friendship, some others
insist on eyeing it with suspicion and hatred. That is not the Baha'i way.
So be it. To them their religion, and to us, our religion.
Zaynab
<A HREF="https://hometown.aol.com/rbcfbenna/aolchats.html">AOL Bahá'í Chats
</A>
A website with resources for
learning about the Bahá'í Faith
<A HREF="https://members.aol.com/bennachti/bahai.htm">Camphor Fountain</A>
Bahá'í Faith Information
For Seekers of Truth
And Students of Life
----------
From: ONElist Tech Support[SMTP:admin@onelist.com]
Sent: Thursday, March 04, 1999 5:29 PM
To: FG
Subject: Re: false subscriptions to onelist.com
Hi Could you email us a copy of the messages you have been receiving?
Thanks,
Lupe
ONElist Team
>
> This morning I found 475 messages in my inbox
> mainly from several onelist.com maling lists. I
> realize you have policies against this and don't
> blame your service. I would appreciate your help
> in unsubscribing my email from all of your lists or
> determining what false email I've been entered as
> or whatever you need to do to stop the bombardment.
> I've included three sample headers and messages.
>
> Thanks.
>
> FG
> FG@hotmail.com
>
>
>
> Someone has subscribed me to
>
>
>
> chatover21@onelist.com
>
> 111-homeworkers@onelist.com
>
> a1opportunities@onelist.com
>
> fortune@onelist.com
>
> pchelp@onelist.com
>
> ssbdfreeads-owner@onelist.com
>
> 40PlusSingles@onelist.com
>
> pcworks@MailingList.net
>
>
>
> From: Shannon Taylor <taylor@netpathway.com> Save Address Block Sender
> Reply-To: chatover21@onelist.com
> To: Chat_Over <chatover21@onelist.com>
> Subject: [chatover21] Still A Little Girl
> Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 19:02:14 -0500
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> >From testcase2@usa.net Wed Mar 3 17:00:11 1999
> Received: (qmail 9635 invoked by uid 0); 4 Mar 1999 01:00:05 -0000
> Received: from onelist.com [209.207.135.229] by mx03 via mtad (2.6)with
> ESMTP
> id 635DcDBaF0128M03; Thu, 04 Mar 1999 01:00:05 GMT
> Received: (qmail 27055 invoked by alias); 4 Mar 1999 00:54:31 -0000
> Received: (qmail 26975 invoked from network); 4 Mar 1999 00:54:29 -0000
> Received: from unknown (HELO sammy.netpathway.com) (208.137.139.2) by
> pop.onelist.com with SMTP; 4 Mar 1999 00:54:28 -0000
> Received: from netpathway.com (port34-wayn.netpathway.com [208.137.139.231])
> by
> sammy.netpathway.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA06217 for
> <chatover21@onelist.com>; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 18:56:44 -0600
> Message-ID: <36DDCD86.9F8BFB5A@netpathway.com>
> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I)
> X-Accept-Language: en
> Mailing-List: list chatover21@onelist.com; contact
> chatover21-owner@onelist.com
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> View Email Message Source
> Reply Reply All Forward Delete Previous Next Close
> Content-Type: text/plain
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
>
> From: Shannon Taylor <taylor@netpathway.com>
>
> Sarah I love the poems you sent ..here is one you may like...
>
> The troubles outside seem so far away.
> The fighting of wars, making a world decay.
> But here in my private little world,
> I feel safe and secure, like a little girl.
>
> But in my private retreat it's great.
> So different from the world outside, a world full of hate.
> I find only peace and love to surround me here.
> The feeling of goodness like God is near.
>
> So let me be a little girl so small,
> Then I won't have to worry at all.
> I'll stay here where I'm safe from the world.
> I'll face tomorrow when I'm not a little girl.
> I'll settle down with a day dream or two,
> After the work is all done and the house is all clean.
> Feeling like a little girl, that is hiding from time,
> Knowing that I'm grown up in body and mind.
>
> But WAIT, I can't give up my private little world.
> Maybe I'll just give up being a little girl.
> Life is hard when you are a grown up, it's so much colder.
> Oh well, I'll worry about it tomorrow...when I'm older.
>
> © Shannon Taylor
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, or to change your subscription
> to digest, go to the ONElist web site, at https://www.onelist.com and
> select the Member Center link from the menu bar on the left.
>
>
>
>
>
> From: "Jeff Wilhelmi" <jwilh007@prairie.lakes.com> Save Address Block
> Sender
> Reply-To: 40PlusSingles@onelist.com
> To: <40PlusSingles@onelist.com>
> Subject: [40PlusSingles] Re: Oh, Yeah....
> Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 17:17:15 -0600
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> >From testcase2@usa.net Wed Mar 3 15:15:22 1999
> Received: (qmail 10231 invoked by uid 0); 3 Mar 1999 23:15:15 -0000
> Received: from onelist.com [209.207.164.13] by mx04 via mtad (2.6)with ESMTP
> id
> 591DccXPP0022M04; Wed, 03 Mar 1999 23:15:15 GMT
> Received: (qmail 31838 invoked by alias); 3 Mar 1999 23:16:15 -0000
> Received: (qmail 31827 invoked from network); 3 Mar 1999 23:16:13 -0000
> Received: from unknown (HELO Mail.lakes.com) (209.181.160.3) by
> pop.onelist.com
> with SMTP; 3 Mar 1999 23:16:13 -0000
> Received: from Prairie.lakes.com (Prairie.Lakes.com [209.181.160.1]) by
> Mail.lakes.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA10634 for
> <40PlusSingles@onelist.com>; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 17:17:15 -0600
> Received: from jwilh007.lakes.com (Modem036-Sleepyeye.lakes.com
> [209.181.177.168] (may be forged)) by Prairie.lakes.com (8.8.7/8.8.7)
> with SMTP
> id RAA14638 for <40PlusSingles@onelist.com>; Wed, 3 Mar 1999
> 17:17:14 -0600
> Message-ID: <005f01be65cb$fa88fa40$a8b1b5d1@jwilh007.lakes.com>
> X-Priority: 3
> X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
> Mailing-List: list 40PlusSingles@onelist.com; contact
> 40PlusSingles-owner@onelist.com
> Delivered-To: mailing list 40PlusSingles@onelist.com
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> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:40PlusSingles-unsubscribe@ONElist.com>
> View Email Message Source
> Reply Reply All Forward Delete Previous Next Close
> Content-Type: text/plain
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
> From: "Jeff Wilhelmi" <jwilh007@prairie.lakes.com>
>
> Complex sounds more like duplex. But who loves ya baby??? Jeff
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bluespearl@aol.com <Bluespearl@aol.com>
> To: 40PlusSingles@onelist.com <40PlusSingles@onelist.com>
> Date: Wednesday, March 03, 1999 2:27 PM
> Subject: [40PlusSingles] Re: Oh, Yeah....
>
>
> >From: Bluespearl@aol.com
> >
> ><< What is it, I send in my pic, next we go from # 1 to # 5, people on list
> > leave. Is it me or
> > just my damn complex again???? Jeff from Minnesota >>
> >
> >Ha Ha Jeff! I thought I was the one with the inferiority complex....
> >
> >Abby
> >
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> From: "Tim Klymkow" <klymkow@a-znet.com> Save Address Block Sender
> Reply-To: pcworks@MailingList.net
> To: <pcworks@MailingList.net>
> Subject: Re: PCWorks: Error SU0168 uprgrade win95 to win98 with oem win98
> cd.
> Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 17:40:58 -0500
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> >From testcase2@usa.net Wed Mar 3 14:49:21 1999
> Received: (qmail 10014 invoked by uid 0); 3 Mar 1999 22:49:15 -0000
> Received: from lion.esosoft.net [207.153.254.66] by mx03 via mtad (2.6)with
> ESMTP id 040DccwxN0117M03; Wed, 03 Mar 1999 22:49:14 GMT
> Received: from moose.esosoft.net (moose@moose.esosoft.net [192.41.5.145])by
> lion.esosoft.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA23724;Wed, 3 Mar 1999
> 17:47:31
> -0500 (EST)
> Received: from localhost (moose@localhost) by moose.esosoft.net (8.8.5) id
> PAA25454; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 15:46:21 -0700 (MST)
> Received: by moose.esosoft.net (bulk_mailer v1.9); Wed, 3 Mar 1999 15:43:56
> -0700
> Received: (moose@localhost) by moose.esosoft.net (8.8.5) id PAA24669; Wed, 3
> Mar 1999 15:43:53 -0700 (MST)
> Received: from mail.a-znet.com (root@[209.177.29.6]) by moose.esosoft.net
> (8.8.5) id PAA24640; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 15:43:48 -0700 (MST)
> X-Authentication-Warning: moose.esosoft.net: Host root@[209.177.29.6]
> claimed
> to be mail.a-znet.com
> Received: from klymkow1 (syr2161.a-znet.com [209.2.143.161])by
> mail.a-znet.com
> (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA01585;Wed, 3 Mar 1999 17:53:33 -0500
> Message-ID: <005f01be65c7$5065d1e0$6950fea9@klymkow1>
> X-Priority: 3
> X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.0810.800
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> Sender: owner-pcworks@MailingList.net
> View Email Message Source
> Reply Reply All Forward Delete Previous Next Close
> Content-Type: text/plain
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
> Gary,
> The only method that works is to rename (or mark as hidden, or delete) all
> instances of WIN.COM on your hard drives, and then run setup from the DOS
> prompt.
>
> Info courtesy of Sean Erwins's Windows 98 FAQ at
> https://www.listmaker.net/win98/index.html#upgrade .
>
> Hope this helps!
>
> Tim Klymkow
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Gary <ggshaw@uq.net.au>
>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 1999 4:55 AM
> Subject: PCWorks: Error SU0168 uprgrade win95 to win98 with oem win98 cd.
>
>
> >Problem: Win95b installed. Want to
> >upgrade to Win98. I only have Win98 OEM
> >CD. I get the following message after
> >Win98 has copied temp files to begin
> >install.
> >"Your computer has an operating system
> >installed, which cannot be upgraded by
> >this version.
> >
> >"error SUO168"
> >
> <snip>
>
>
>
> ============= PCWorks Mailing List ===============
> Visit Our Random "Member HomePage of the Week":
> Shelley Gaffney's "Shelley's Money Making Opportunities"
> https://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Labyrinth/9790/
> PCWorks WebPage https://www.telesouth1.com/~pcworks
> ==============================================
>
>
>
>
--
When replying to this message, please include the entire message.
ONElist Tech Support Free Mailing Lists
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----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, March 04, 1999 5:44 PM
To: abuse@usa.net
Subject: testcase2@usa.net spammer
Dear abuse@usa.net
319 more messages this afternoon:
Someone has been using an account at testcase2@usa.net
for nearly a month now to bombard my FG@hotmail.com
account with false subscriptions to listservs. Two listserv
adminstrators at Indiana.edu have helped a lot to figure out
where it's coming from and I include their messages below
along with the header and message of one piece of mailing
showing testcase2@usa.net in the FROM.
If you could turn off that account completely it would really help.
I also ask you to identify to me who the person is behind the spam
so that I might be able to do something about it. They've begun
a second wave of attacks just yesterday and today from lists
at www.onelist.com whom I've notified but seem to still be
passing many of the messages, though not all, through the
testcase2@usa.net address. The last message here shows
that address again.
I had 475 messages in my inbox this morning most from
this account testcase2@usa.net and another 319 this
afternoon!!
Thanks in advance for anything you can do to stop
this.
Desperately in need of your help,
FG
FG@hotmail.com
-----Original Message-----
From: LISTSERV Administrator <lstadmin@indiana.edu>
To: FG <FG@hotmail.com>
Cc: List Administrator <list-admin@indiana.edu>; stephenl@indiana.edu
<stephenl@indiana.edu>
Date: Friday, February 26, 1999 10:32 AM
Subject: Re: false listserv subscription
>Frederick and Larry,
>
>Do you anything about the subscription testcase2@usa.net? If I'm
>reading the headers right it looks like the message sent to Frederick
>came from that address.
>
>Larry -- if you want to test this you could set testcase2 to nomail and
>we could see if that stops the flow of mail to Frederick.
>
>Peg Bassett
>UITS Messaging Team
>
>On Mon, 22 Feb 1999, FG wrote:
>
>> Sorry it's taken me a week or so to reply. I'm still receiving
>> all the messages posted to your listservs. I'm going to try
>> to attach them and insert them in here to give you the
>> complete headers in one way or another.
>>
>> I really appreciate your help. My account is completely
>> overwhelmed by all this junk mail and takes several
>> minutes to download the few legitimate messages.
>>
>> FG
>> FG@hotmail.com
>>
>>
>> >From testcase2@USA.NET Mon Feb 22 08:25:12 1999
>> Received: from [204.68.24.139] by hotmail.com (1.1) with SMTP id
>> MHotMailB89ACFE724011D101708CCC44188B9B990; Mon Feb 22 08:25:12 1999
>> Received: (qmail 18627 invoked by uid 0); 22 Feb 1999 12:28:53 -0000
>> Received: from listserv.indiana.edu [129.79.5.189] by mx02 via mtad (2.6)
>> with ESMTP id 831DBVmoK0146M02; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 12:14:36 GMT
>> Received: from piano (129.79.5.189) by listserv.indiana.edu (LSMTP for
>> Windows NT v1.1a) with SMTP id <0.F38FDCE0@listserv.indiana.edu>; Mon, 22
>> Feb 1999 7:14:14 -0500
>> Received: from LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU by LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU
(LISTSERV-TCP/IP
>> release 1.8c) with spool id 17591351 for
>> DEEP-SOUTH-ROOTS-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU; Mon, 22 Feb 1999
07:14:12
>> -0500
>> Received: from imo12.mx.aol.com by listserv.indiana.edu (LSMTP for
Windows
>> NT
>> v1.1a) with SMTP id <0.F2CC3EC0@listserv.indiana.edu>; Mon, 22
Feb
>> 1999 7:14:12 -0500
>> Received: from BGeoT@aol.com by imo12.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id ODDLa24348
>> for
>> <deep-south-roots-l@listserv.indiana.edu>; Mon, 22 Feb 1999
>> 07:14:08
>> -0500 (EST)
>> Mime-Version: 1.0
>> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>> Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
>> X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 205
>> Message-ID: <7f98222.36d14a10@aol.com>
>> Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 07:14:08 EST
>> Reply-To: BGeoT@AOL.COM
>> Sender: "A discussion list for genealogy in AL, GA, FL and MS"
>> <DEEP-SOUTH-ROOTS-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
>> From: George Turnipseed <BGeoT@AOL.COM>
>> Subject: [D-S] JOHNSTON&CALDWELL-HancockCoMS-1800s
>> To: DEEP-SOUTH-ROOTS-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU
>>
>> I am searching for info, ancestors of James Johnston born c1810 in NC,
>> married Eleonore ___ c1830 Hancock Co MS. Their son, George W Johnston
>> born 1841 married Victoria V Caldwell.
>> Please contact by e-mail: BGeoT@aol.com
>> George Turnipseed
>>
>> -----------------------------------------------
>> List problems?
>> Check
>> your WELCOME message FIRST
>> https://php.indiana.edu/~stephenl/problems.htm SECOND
>> then contact stephenL@indiana.edu
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: List Administrator <list-admin@indiana.edu>
>> To: Stephens, Larry V <stephenl@indiana.edu>; 'FG'
>> <FG@hotmail.com>; 'lstadmin@othello.ucs.indiana.edu'
>> <lstadmin@othello.ucs.indiana.edu>
>> Cc: 'help@hotmail.com' <help@hotmail.com>; 'support@hotmail.com'
>> <support@hotmail.com>
>> Date: Tuesday, February 16, 1999 12:49 PM
>> Subject: RE: false listserv subscription
>>
>>
>> >I've searched back through all of the LISTSERV log files for February I
did
>> >not find a subscription request from Mr. Glaysher for the
>> Deep-South-Roots-L
>> >list. I also did not find any indication that mail to this list was
>> >distributed to
>> >the address FG@hotmail.com.
>> >
>> >Mr. Glaysher -- are you still receiving list mail from our server? If
yes,
>> >could
>> >you please forward a copy of a recent message, with full headers to me?
>> >
>> >
>> >Peggy Bassett
>> >University Information Technology Services
>> >Indiana University, Bloomington
>> >bassett@indiana.edu
>> >>
>> >> owner-java-com@DISCUSS.MICROSOFT.COM
>> >> Java-COM@DISCUSS.MICROSOFT.COM
>> >>
>> >> LINGUIST@LINGUIST.LDC.UPENN.EDU
>> >> LISTSERV@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU
>> >> linguist@linguistlist.org
>> >>
>> >> PENNSYLVANIA-ROOTS-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU
>> >> owner-pennsylvania-roots-l@listserv.indiana.edu
>> >> DEEP-SOUTH-ROOTS-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU
>> >>
>> >> MTG-STRATEGY-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
>> >> PLI-Y2KLAW@PLI.EDU
>> >> owner-pli-y2klaw@pli.edu
>>
>>
>
>
From: "Tim Klymkow" <klymkow@a-znet.com> Save Address Block Sender
Reply-To: pcworks@MailingList.net
To: <pcworks@MailingList.net>
Subject: Re: PCWorks: Error SU0168 uprgrade win95 to win98 with oem win98
cd.
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 17:40:58 -0500
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From testcase2@usa.net Wed Mar 3 14:49:21 1999
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Gary,
The only method that works is to rename (or mark as hidden, or delete) all
instances of WIN.COM on your hard drives, and then run setup from the DOS
prompt.
Info courtesy of Sean Erwins's Windows 98 FAQ at
https://www.listmaker.net/win98/index.html#upgrade .
Hope this helps!
Tim Klymkow
----- Original Message -----
From: Gary <ggshaw@uq.net.au>
Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 1999 4:55 AM
Subject: PCWorks: Error SU0168 uprgrade win95 to win98 with oem win98 cd.
>Problem: Win95b installed. Want to
>upgrade to Win98. I only have Win98 OEM
>CD. I get the following message after
>Win98 has copied temp files to begin
>install.
>"Your computer has an operating system
>installed, which cannot be upgraded by
>this version.
>
>"error SUO168"
>
<snip>
============= PCWorks Mailing List ===============
Visit Our Random "Member HomePage of the Week":
Shelley Gaffney's "Shelley's Money Making Opportunities"
https://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Labyrinth/9790/
PCWorks WebPage https://www.telesouth1.com/~pcworks
==============================================
From: "O'Flynn, Austin" <AOFlynn@CHW.EDU> Save Address Block Sender
Reply-To: PLI Year 2000 Law List <PLI-Y2KLAW@PLI.EDU>
To: PLI-Y2KLAW@PLI.EDU
Subject: Re: [PLI-Y2KLAW] Y2K Testing of Biomedical Equipment by Users
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 22:59:01 -0800
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Year 200
Readiness Disclosure Statement
Re: Testing of Biomedical Equipment by Users.
If you are concerned about the voiding a system warranty by doing your
testing, it infers you are talking about a relatively new system, in
which case such testing ought to have been provided for in the contract.
We at Catholic Healthcare West have decided not to rely merely on
statements from the vendor with respect to mission critical systems.
All mission critical systems are being tested, including all interfaces.
For newly installed systems, we include such right to test in the
contract, and to test as per our scripts. For older systems, we obtain
not merely a Y2K compliance statement, but all test scripts and results
thereof. We also seek copies from the vendor of any third party
verification of such testing. And then we test the application
ourselves.
You should note that many public Y2K Statements have the same caption as
I have above, that is, they are given pursuant to the Federal Year 2000
Information and Readiness Disclosure Act that such statement cannot be
used against the issuer in any legal action, with certain exceptions.
Therefore, often the public Y2K Statement by a vendor are no more than a
heads up, leaving you to decide whether you want to act on it or not.
Where there are patient lives at risk, due diligence warrants that you
treat such statements as informational only; nothing more.
I have not heard that the FDA is advising hospitals to the contrary.
And even if they were, until they put their dollars on the line or
appropriate regulation is passed, their advice is but circumstantial
evidence at best on what the standard for due diligence should be.
The statement given above is personal and has not been approved or
endorsed by CHW. Austin O'Flynn
Associate Corporate Counsel
CHW
https://www.chw.edu
-----Original Message-----
From: Hanson Research Service, Inc. [mailto:lhanson@HANSONINFO.COM]
Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 1999 10:58 AM
To: PLI-Y2KLAW@PLI.EDU
Subject: Re: [PLI-Y2KLAW] Y2K Testing of Biomedical Equipment by Users
Debra --
I recently gave a speech to a medical society on Y2K issues that
included a
discussion about the status of biomedical devices. Research for the
presentation clearly indicated that there are conflicting opinions about
whether reliance on a vendor's claim of Y2K compliance is adequate, or
whether the equipment should be tested independently by an experienced
engineer. Hospitals have been cautious about relying on vendor
certification, especially when the devices are critical to the welfare
of
patients. A New Zealand hospital reported that it had tested a number
of
pieces of one type of medical equipment and found that half were not Y2K
compliant. This alarmed the hospital since the vendor had certified
that
the equipment was Y2K compliant. Some hopitals maintain that it is not
only
necessary to self test a particular device, but every single sample--a
tedious and expensive process. I can supply the citations for the
above,
which do not represent formal medical studies but rather observations
from
medical practitioners. I would be interested in listserv opinion on
what
constitutes due deligence in this matter.
Regards,
Louise
>I represent a health-care provider which uses sophisticated biomedical
>equipment. The company's inside biomedical administrators would like
to be
>able to rely on the public y2k compliance statements issued by the
>equipment vendors to the FDA, and are hesitant to conduct their own
testing
>because, they say, (i) the FDA recommends (prohibits?) against user
>testing, and (ii) the vendor warranties may be nullified if the user
>"tampers" with the software. Does anyone have any opinions on these
>issues, or any authority in support of or against this position? Is it
>reasonable for an end-user to rely on vendor statments of compliance,
or
>should a user (who, of course, has less technical expertise than the
vendor
>concerning its particular piece of equipment) have to test on its own
the
>equipment supplied by a multitude of vendors? The concerns are
two-fold:
> (i) contractual rights of the company against the vendor if it turns
out
>that the equipment is non-compliant; and (ii) potential liability of
the
>company to patients using any equipment which malfunctions.
>
>Your thoughts and suggestions are appreciated.
>Debra Glazer, Esq.
>Irvine, CA 92612
>(949) 854-0173
>FAX (949) 854-0198
>Debra.Glazer@worldnet.att.net
>
>
>-------------------------------
>PLI-Y2KLAW
>Sponsored by The Practising Law Institute
>810 Seventh Avenue New York, NY 10019
>https://www.pli.edu (800) 260-4PLI
>List Moderator: Charles Kerr, ckerr@mofo.com
>Technical Contact: Guy Alvarez, guylaw@yahoo.com
>
>The electronic messages that appear on this list are for informational
>purposes only. They are not intended to be and should not be
>considered legal advice nor substitute for obtaining legal advice from
>competent, independent, legal counsel in the relevant jurisdiction.
>
>Transmission of this information is not intended to create, and
>receipt does not constitute, an attorney-client relationship. The
>information contained on this list may or may not reflect the most
>current legal developments.
>
>
Louise Hanson, President E-mail: lhanson@hansoninfo.com
Hanson Research Services, Inc. Phone: (785) 832-9234 (business);
1628 Dudley Court (785) 841-3026 (home)
Lawrence, KS 66044 Fax: (785) 832-9242
-------------------------------
PLI-Y2KLAW
Sponsored by The Practising Law Institute
810 Seventh Avenue New York, NY 10019
https://www.pli.edu (800) 260-4PLI
List Moderator: Charles Kerr, ckerr@mofo.com
Technical Contact: Guy Alvarez, guylaw@yahoo.com
The electronic messages that appear on this list are for informational
purposes only. They are not intended to be and should not be
considered legal advice nor substitute for obtaining legal advice from
competent, independent, legal counsel in the relevant jurisdiction.
Transmission of this information is not intended to create, and
receipt does not constitute, an attorney-client relationship. The
information contained on this list may or may not reflect the most
current legal developments.
-------------------------------
PLI-Y2KLAW
Sponsored by The Practising Law Institute
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List Moderator: Charles Kerr, ckerr@mofo.com
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The electronic messages that appear on this list are for informational
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considered legal advice nor substitute for obtaining legal advice from
competent, independent, legal counsel in the relevant jurisdiction.
Transmission of this information is not intended to create, and
receipt does not constitute, an attorney-client relationship. The
information contained on this list may or may not reflect the most
current legal developments.
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, March 04, 1999 6:11 PM
To: admin@onelist.com
Subject: FOR Lupe: testcase2@usa.net spammer
Lupe,
I appreciate your help. I've received another 320+ messages
this afternoon for a total of over 800! My account won't
even let me download anything it's so over taxed.
I hope you can figure this thing out.
Thanks!
Fred Glaysher
FG@hotmail.com
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From: Bluespearl@aol.com
<< because I love to flam, >>
New sport in Michigan, Jeff???
Just teasin ya, big guy!
Have a good day!
Peace
Abby
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From: Richard Diederen <Richard.Diederen@ICT.NL> Save Address Block Sender
Reply-To: Java and COM <Java-COM@DISCUSS.MICROSOFT.COM>
To: Java-COM@DISCUSS.MICROSOFT.COM
Subject: Interface pointer leakage in Java?
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 10:39:46 +0100
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Hi,
I was wondering why DLLHOST.EXE remains active after local or remote
instatiation of a Java COM object.
After running Rational Purify on my application, I found two stubborn
interface pointer leaks:
[W] ILK: COM Interface leak from interface pointer 0x77bc9198, allocated in
CoGetMalloc
Leak from IMalloc interface with reference count of 2 (0x77bc9198)
Allocation location
CoGetMalloc+0xc [C:\WINNT\SYSTEM32\ole32.dll
ip=0x67b2175c]
VariantTimeToSystemTime+0x147e [C:\WINNT\SYSTEM32\oleaut32.dll
ip=0x6534bcaf]
SysAllocStringLen+0x77 [C:\WINNT\SYSTEM32\oleaut32.dll
ip=0x653414be]
SysAllocString+0xb [C:\WINNT\SYSTEM32\OLEAUT32.dll
ip=0x553418c0]
execute_java_constructorV+0x3d6f [C:\WINNT\System32\msjava.dll
ip=0x7c03b5bd]
execute_java_constructorV+0x37b4 [C:\WINNT\System32\msjava.dll
ip=0x7c03b002]
execute_java_constructorV+0x3a94 [C:\WINNT\System32\msjava.dll
ip=0x7c03b2e2]
JITresolveInterface+0x421f [C:\WINNT\System32\msjava.dll
ip=0x7c010686]
JITresolveInterface+0x40a3 [C:\WINNT\System32\msjava.dll
ip=0x7c01050a]
JITresolveInterface+0x902 [C:\WINNT\System32\msjava.dll
ip=0x7c00cd69]
[W] ILK: COM Interface leak from interface pointer 0x7c0da8f8, allocated in
CoGetClassObject
Leak from IClassFactory interface with reference count of 1
(0x7c0da8f8)
Allocation location
CoGetClassObject+0xc [C:\WINNT\SYSTEM32\ole32.dll
ip=0x67b2178f]
???
[C:\Project\MIP\Java\PMSJClient_General\PMSJClient.exe ip=0x00401682]
???
[C:\Project\MIP\Java\PMSJClient_General\PMSJClient.exe ip=0x0040f059]
Could this be the reason for keeping DLLHOST.exe active or is there another
explanation?
If yes, is there a solution/workaraound for my problem? I explicitly
release my interface pointers
and set my COM objects to null after using them.
Richard.
----------------------------------------------------------------
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From: BetRTimes@aol.com
In a message dated 3/4/99 3:11:27 PM Central Standard Time,
elliemc@viptx.net
writes:
<< BOP on the HEADOLA >>
Uh.. EL, sweetie.....
Jill is the only one that gets to BOP me on the head..
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Subject: [NetSnooper] Looking for some new free Business
Opportunities...visit
our sites today...
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 11:30:45 EST
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From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Friday, March 05, 1999 10:07 AM
Subject: Evil (Re: three signs of maturity of humankind (was: Science and Religion))
Vinson Jamir wrote in message <36DF2DC1.87B4D101@bellsouth.net>...
> Help me with this. An authenticated source reports 'Abdul-Baha as
>saying, "... all the qualities and admirable perfections of man, are purely
>good, and exist. Evil is simply their nonexistence. So ignorance is the
want
>of knowledge; error is the want of guidance; forgetfulness is the want of
>memory; stupidity [my favorite!] is the want of GOOD SENSE. All these
things
>have no real existence." (Some Answered Questions, p.263)(Emphasis ADDED)
The same man said this:
"This attachment of the soul and spirit to the human world, which
is sin, was inherited by the descendants of Adam, and is the
serpent which is *always* in the midst of, and at enmity with, the
spirits and descendants of Adam. *That enmity continues and
endures.*" (Emphasis ADDED....)
Bahais themselves have confirmed for me the Reality of Evil....
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Friday, March 05, 1999 10:11 AM
Subject: Bahai hypocrisy (Re: Shunning (was: Interesting Conversations))
Ron House wrote in message <36DCC3FF.4F0006B3@usq.edu.au>...
>
>It is easy for Baha'is to be too critical of the rough and tumble of
>Internet discussions. After attending one of the etherial, unworldly
>Baha'i events, one could easily come here and be disappointed.
>Fortunately for me, I learned that the ever so syruppy, hyper-polite,
>prayer-filled people are the most hypocritical and hateful, and that
>politeness is no measure of a person's real spirituality. I prefer to
>ask: who is giving me their _real_ thoughts, held for sincere and good
>reasons, trying to achieve some good in the world? Those are the people
>I feel close to.
I believe Ron is touching on something quite significant about
the Bahai Faith today, including here online.... In my experience
in dealing with soc.religion.bahai, the BCCA, Bahais on Usenet
and now AOL during the last two years, it has indeed been the
nauseatingly spiritual and self-righteous who have been the most
hypocritical, dishonest, and hateful in their opposition to the
freedom of speech and conscience Abdul-Baha respected and
admired....
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Friday, March 05, 1999 10:45 AM
Subject: Re: Love bombing
Dale Grider wrote in message <36DF5968.A1485DD2@bellsouth.net>...
It’s not whether I think I am presenting inarguable
>“facts” that makes the Fireside title valid, it’s the fact that any
>“Fireside” that is going to be more than an exercise is mutual back
>patting is going to have to genuinely welcome and engage sincere dissent
>as part and parcel of the process of discovering truth.
Dale touches here on a valid criticism of Bahai "Firesides." They
are usually indoctrination sessions with little to no give and take.
In general, really, my fellow Bahais are incapable of "engaging
sincere dissent." All they are taught to do by the UHJ is categorically
condemn it, shun it, and pat oneself on the back....
I respect Dale's site and his sincerely held Christian beliefs.
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Friday, March 05, 1999 10:48 AM
Subject: Re: Newsgroup etiquette attn: Joel Marangella & followers
BrentMReed wrote in message
<19990305021550.20118.00000735@ng-cg1.aol.com>...
>
>You are so arrogant. It seems that this group rarely ever manifests the
>Spirits of Justice and Fairness, Courtesy and Eloquence, that were so
>beautifully exemplified in the lives and writings of Baha'u'llah and
>'Abd'ul-Baha.
All fair-minded observers will recognize these words as true....
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: Alex von Hochtritt[SMTP:netsec@oracle.wizards.com]
Sent: Friday, March 05, 1999 12:14 PM
To: FG
Subject: Re: testcase2@usa.net spammer - Re: Your request to sign off the
MTG-STRATEGY-L list
-----Original Message-----
From: FG <FG@hotmail.com>
To: MTG-STRATEGY-L-request@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
<MTG-STRATEGY-L-request@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Cc: abuse@usa.net <abuse@usa.net>
Date: Friday, March 05, 1999 6:15 AM
Subject: testcase2@usa.net spammer - Re: Your request to sign off the MTG-STRATEGY-L list
>Someone using testcase2@usa.net is spamming my mailbox
>with more than 1,700 messages during the last few days,
>including from your list. Please delete any subscription
>for that address or for test case. Apparently they're
>being forwarded from that account onto me. Ihave contacted
>abuse@usa.net but the messages keep coming in!!
>
>FG
>FG@hotmail.com
>
I'm blocking email from that account to our server, and removing that account's subscriptions to
our lists.
I'm terribly sorry you were a victim of this; I'm also taking it up with usa.net
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Friday, March 05, 1999 6:08 PM
Subject: Re: infallibility (propositional or not?)
Meaningless pyscho-babble, from someone
who regularly censors people on AOL....
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
owner@sociologist.com wrote in message <7bovj5$rpi$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>I am reposting this message from the listserv, Baha'i Studies.
>------
>
>
>Hi, xxxx,
>
>At 23:10 03/05/1999 +0900, you wrote:
>>I think that, in not essentially different ways, this
>>is the position that Mark takes with regards to
>>religious truth and inerrancy (Mark, tell me if I am
>>wrong).
>
>I agree with you, of course, with respect to objectivity. Some
>people assume that it means total phenomenological reduction or
>epoche (bracketing of biases); whereas most scientists recognize
>the impossibility of Husserl's proposition. Objectivity refers,
>of course, to the use of agreed-upon standards of measurement
>(including tests of reliablity and validity).
>
>An objective study is one in which bias (statistically, standard
>error) is reduced through the implementation of proper controls.
>Therefore, the scientist can be biased (who isn't?), while a
>particular study need not be quite so biased (unless one accepts
>the Marxian view that all researchers are terminally trapped in
>bias by virtue of their social class membership).
>
>Anyway, it is all a matter of degree. No social scientists, that
>I know anyway, would pretend that they are ever completely
>unbiased. Such a situation would negate one's humanness.
>
>Now, with respect to inerrancy, I think you _may_ have missed my
>point. What I am saying is that so-called propositional
>infallibility is reductionistic, i.e., it reduces authoritative
>divine guidance (which is, as I see it, synonymous with
>infallibility [not propositional infallibility]) to rational
>consistency.
>
>Now, I am not saying that the Baha'i teachings are not
>rationally consistent (although I doubt that this can be
>demonstrated fully one way or the other). What I *am* saying is
>that infallibility, IMO, has nothing to do with rational
>consistency (propositional statements).
>
>As I see it, infallibility exists sui generis. It is an emergent
>reality and is not something which can be demonstrated by
>*rational proofs*. Rather, infallibility is _transrational_ (a
>term sometimes used by Ken Wilber).
>
>The human mind has no ability to think in terms of
>infallibility. To us (at least in this world), everything is
>relative.
>
>For instance, what I have found is that each time I feel I have
>resolved one contradiction, I am confronted by additional ones.
>(As R. Khanum has said on more than one occasion, the Baha'i
>Faith is loaded with contradictions.)
>
>Therefore, to my understanding, infallibility refers to
>*authoritative moral guidance*. In other words, following the
>Baha'i Teachings (normative conformity) produces, individually
>and collectively, the outcome intended by its Author
>(Baha'u'llah). Likewise, obeying the Guardian and the House of
>Justice produces the outcome intended by its inspired Source
>(the Bab and Baha'u'llah).
>
>That is why I think it is more useful to focus on authority than
>infallibility. The latter is something we accept (but can't do
>much of anything with). The former is a statement of our
>covenantal responsibilities.
>
>Warmly,
>Mark (A. Foster, Ph.D.), Assoc. Prof. of Sociology
>Johnson County Community College * https://bahai.nu
>https://www.MarkFoster.net * https://MarkFoster.org
>
>
>-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
>https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Friday, March 05, 1999 6:19 PM
Subject: fw Maneck on AOL Re: Personal Statement on Baha'u'llah, 3 years on
Subject: Re: Juan Cole - Personal Statement on Baha'u'llah, 3 Years On
Date: 3/3/1999 11:52 PM Eastern Standard Time
From: Smaneck
Message-id: <19990303235224.08680.00000731@ng-cg1.aol.com>
This is a most interesting statement of Dr. Cole's which has been posted
here, wherein he reaffirms his continuing belief in Baha'u'llah. He also
expresses confusion as to why anyone might have suggested that he was in any
way challenging the Covenant. While there were no doubt numerous mistakes
made in the manner in which Dr. Cole and some other academics were dealt
with, it seems to me that there are and were some
legitimate concerns involved from the standpoint of the Covenant. Leaving
aside a discussion of who did what to whom, I would like to focus on just
one passage from Dr. Cole's present statement. Juan wrote:
>I abhor schism and urge all Baha'is to recognize the legitimate
>authority of the Universal House of Justice in its legitimate spheres of
>authority;
Now it may be that I am misunderstand Juan here, but the question that
arises in my mind is would Juan arrogate to individual Baha'is the right to
decide whether or not the Universal House of Justice *is* operating within
"its legitimate sphere of authority"? If so, it is clear that the Covenant
would thereby be deprived of its very pupose, namely to maintian the unity
of the community in responsiveness to God, for anyone could now choose to
violate
the directives and ignore the policies of the House on the grounds that the
person didn't happen to believe the House was acting within its proper
"sphere." The Covenant would thereby become meaningless and we would
thereby be subject to the very kind schisms which Juan says he decries, for
some could even go so far as to suggest that the House of Justice itself has
violated the Covenant.
warmest,
Susan Maneck
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@aol.com]
Sent: Friday, March 05, 1999 6:21 PM
To: FG@hotmail.com
Subject: Re: Juan Cole - Personal Statement on Baha'u'llah, 3 Years On
<HTML><FONT SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>>While there were no doubt numerous mistakes made
in the manner in which Dr.
>Cole and some other academics were dealt with,
Wow, is that ever a mouthful....
>for some could even go so far as to suggest that the House of Justice itself
>has violated the Covenant.
The UHJ has certainly violated the Teachings on freedom of speech and liberty....
</HTML>
<HTML><FONT SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:<BR>
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,<BR>
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards<BR>
</HTML>
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Friday, March 05, 1999 6:26 PM
Subject: fw Ruletherod on AOL Re: Personal Statement on Baha'u'llah, 3 years on
Subject: Rob: Juan Cole - Personal Statement on Baha'u'llah, 3 Years On
Date: 3/4/1999 12:08 PM Eastern Standard Time
From: Ruletherod
Message-id: <19990304120855.21671.00003617@ng37.aol.com>
>To my way of thinking, a large part of the problem of Convenant-breaking —
if not the entire problem — is that of ego. --Rob
In my experience, Rob, the Egos of Greatest Destruction have been select
Baha'i VIPs with incorrigible egos who preach loyalty to the Covenant every
chance they get. These people, because of this kind of posturing (for
self-aggrandizement), in my observation, have done far more harm to the
Faith than the people
stigmatized as "Covenant-breakers," however justified or
incorrect. The covenantbreakers
are just easier targets.....while the
Big Fish get way with murder. It's all a matter of perspective. It's the
people with hidden agendas we need to worry about, not the soap box
preachers of questionable information.
>Any authority that gets in the way of achieving their aims becomes suspect
in their eyes.
Maybe. But before you cast Juan Cole (see post heading) as a traitor here,
you'd have to walk in his shoes first...something few Baha'is here have
done. As far as I know, the House hasn't branded him a covenantbreaker.
Until then, we shouldn't even be arguing this in reference to him.
>God preserve us from falling into such a trap.
The hysteria surrounding this issue is itself a self-deceptive trap.
If you don't agree with someone like him, simply ignore his message. But he
has every right to express his sincere beliefs (however critical) like
anyone else......as other people have a right to listen if they so choose.
We can be democratic about this,
after all.
----------
From: FG@aol.com[SMTP:FG@aol.com]
Sent: Friday, March 05, 1999 6:41 PM
To: RBCFAdmin@aol.com
Cc: FG@hotmail.com
Subject: Re: False TOS by Mark Foster - hikmat folder
I believe Foster is using his power to target people
with TOSs to silence and intimidate them and he
does it here as well by deleting the person's message.
Asserting false TOSs against people violates the TOS
rules, and Foster does it constantly in my opinion.
The ones he's alleged against me are the same type
and that's why I refused and refuse to accept the
burden of emailing you TOSsed messages. AOL has
them. I'm innocent untill proven guilty. The burden of
proof is on you and Foster.
He continues to use his "authority" to the detriment of
AOL members he disagrees with for religious reasons.
I and others, for instance, requested a Folder titled
"Bahai Censorship." He created one titled merely
Censorship which misses the entire point of the Forum.
Further, I've requested since August that alt.religion.bahai
and talk.religion.bahai be added to the Newsgroup menu
along with soc.religion.bahai, the fundamentalist newsgroup.
He has continually made excuses and continues to drag
it along.
I believe it's your responsibility to act as a fair arbiter and
intervene. Notice it's a fair request. Alt.religon.bahai has
had over 30,000 posts to it and existed since April of 1997.
Talk.religion.bahai, newly formed on a Big 8 hierarchy,
had 1,700+ posts in its first month.
AOL should not support the fundamentalists in what is
essentially a legitimate debate over religious interpretations
but allow a free and open discussion, which Foster is
doing everything in his power to stymie.
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Friday, March 05, 1999 6:45 PM
Subject: Re: fw Maneck on AOL Re: Personal Statement on Baha'u'llah, 3 years on
Maneck wrote:
While there were no doubt numerous mistakes made in the manner in which Dr.
>Cole and some other academics were dealt with,
Wow, is that ever a mouthful....
>for some could even go so far as to suggest that the House of Justice
itself
>has violated the Covenant.
The UHJ has certainly violated the Teachings on freedom of speech and
liberty....
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:<BR>
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,<BR>
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards<BR>
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Monday, March 08, 1999 7:52 AM
Subject: Bahais terminate my AOL account (Re: fw Ruletherod on AOL Re: Personal
Statement on Baha'u'llah, 3 years on)
Bahais on AOL have been successful in terminating
my account through a systematic campaign of slander
and deceit.
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: RobertNik@aol.com[SMTP:RobertNik@aol.com]
Sent: Monday, March 08, 1999 7:53 AM
To: FG@hotmail.com
Subject: Re: Bahais terminate my AOL account (Re: fw Ruletherod on AOL Re: Personal
St.
In a message dated 08/03/99 11:52:02 GMT, you write:
<< Bahais on AOL have been successful in terminating
my account through a systematic campaign of slander
and deceit.
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
>>
Oh no. I nver thought it would get to this. look its not that big a deal. its
just the internet after all.
all the best
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Monday, March 08, 1999 9:04 AM
Subject: Re: Censored e-mail to srb
budparker@my-dejanews.com wrote in message
<7br4pb$mg2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>
>It would not hurt to review what is the legitimate sphere of authority of
the
>UHJ!
>
>Speaking for myself, a Bahai of over 20 years, I never paid to much
attention
>to this and just
>lumped all their actions into "divinely inspired", but the events of last 5
>years have been a wake-up call to deepen myself on this topic.
It is my belief that their "legitimate sphere of authority"
is anything they say it is. What the Bahai Writings say is
irrelevant, especially in terms of individual rights and free
speech and liberty.
I hope my website documents many of the events of the last
ten years. I shall be adding pertinent messages relating to
the Majnun incidents before long, not to mention the events
now on AOL which have affected more people than just myself....
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Monday, March 08, 1999 12:48 PM
To: abuse@mindspring.net
Subject: Re: Issue 990304-3411539
>We feel our user is responsibly maintaining an opt-in mailing list.
>Have you tried the removal instructions? Although it's a bad idea
>to reply to most spam, this is a managed list and I feel that following
>the included procedure may work for you. Remember that someone may have
>owned the address FG@hotmail.com before.
>
>Regards,
>
>Len Gordon
>MindSpring AUP/Abuse Investigator
The spammer at testcase2@usa.net is definitely not running
an opt-in mailing list. I DID NOT request 1,700 pieces of
onelist.com email in a period of TWO days. My name is
extremely rare and no else has owned my address.
Please help stop this bombarding of my account by
deleting his and my address from every list you may run.
Thank you.
Fred Glaysher
FG@hotmail.com
-----Original Message-----
From: abuse@mindspring.net <abuse@mindspring.net>
To: FG@hotmail.com <FG@hotmail.com>
Date: Monday, March 08, 1999 11:04 AM
Subject: Issue 990304-3411539
>> Received: from unknown (HELO smtp1.mindspring.com) (207.69.200.31) by
>> pop.onelist.com with SMTP; 4 Mar 1999 13:55:55 -0000
>>
>>
>> >From testcase2@usa.net Thu Mar 4 05:40:36 1999
>> Received: (qmail 8075 invoked by uid 0); 4 Mar 1999 13:40:16 -0000
>> Received: from onelist.com [209.207.135.253] by mx03 via mtad (2.6)
>> with ESMTP id 700DcDNOo0172M03; Thu, 04 Mar 1999 13:40:15 GMT
>> Received: (qmail 29602 invoked by alias); 4 Mar 1999 13:35:28 -0000
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>> Received: from unknown (HELO smtp1.mindspring.com) (207.69.200.31) by
>> pop.onelist.com with SMTP; 4 Mar 1999 13:35:27 -0000
>> Received: from hp-customer (user-38lc01j.dialup.mindspring.com
>> [209.86.0.51]) by smtp1.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id
IAA01449;
>> Thu, 4 Mar 1999 08:40:03 -0500 (EST)
>> Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19990304083637.006a7b0c@pop.mindspring.com>
>> X-Sender: dufrinr@pop.mindspring.com
>> X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32)
>> Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 08:36:37 -0500
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----------
From: MrMahdi@aol.com[SMTP:MrMahdi@aol.com]
Sent: Monday, March 08, 1999 1:15 PM
To: FG@hotmail.com
Subject: Re: Bahais terminate my AOL account (Re: fw Ruletherod on AOL Re: Personal
St...
This is very unfortunate and quite sinister what the bahais on AOL did to you.
I had my account terminated twice, and all I did was get a new account on a
different credit (my mom's credit card so they wont recognize my first name).
Please dont let the fundamentalists win, meaning that if you dont ever get
back on AOL again. You need to stand up for what's right, and not let tyranny
make you quit. When my account was cancelled twice, in a few minutes I was
back on AOL with a different account and screen name because I knew that
injustice will never make me into a quitter. I hope you will do the same. I
am not sure if they will recognize your name if you use a credit card with the
same name, because on the first time my account was cancelled I use another
credit card with my name and nothing unusual happened. The second time I used
my mom's credit card because I didnt have any more credit cards. But I hope
to see you soon and back on AOL. Being back on AOL is a slap to the faces on
the bahais who were sucessful in their campaign in kicking you off. The next
post I will tell you about what happened while I was in the bahai chat, and
what Wendy said about you.
----------
From: MrMahdi@aol.com[SMTP:MrMahdi@aol.com]
Sent: Monday, March 08, 1999 1:23 PM
To: FG@hotmail.com
Subject: Re: Bahais terminate my AOL account (Re: fw Ruletherod on AOL Re: Personal
St...
Two days ago I was in the bahai chat room when I discussed bahai censorship
with Wendy. I asked her about the treatment of some bahais when it came to
independent thinking, and I cited you as an example. Wendy further said that
Fred Glaysher is not a bahai and he might have some mental problems. I asked
her why she said that about you, she replied that you spread lies about the
bahai faith, you attack people with no reason at all, and you are trying to
boost your ego. I told her what about all the personal verbal attacks against
you, she said that you deserve such "criticism" because you have shown nothing
but evil. I wonder where is Wendy's "compassion." Wendy said that bahais
love everybody including their enemies, but how she expressed herself about
you seem to be a clear cut contradiction to that priniciple.
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Monday, March 08, 1999 1:44 PM
To: MrMahdi@aol.com
Subject: Re: Bahais terminate my AOL account (Re: fw Ruletherod on AOL Re: Personal
St...
Thanks Mr. Mahdi for letting me know. May
I post your message on talk.religion.bahai?
Fred
-----Original Message-----
From: MrMahdi@aol.com <MrMahdi@aol.com>
To: FG@hotmail.com <FG@hotmail.com>
Date: Monday, March 08, 1999 12:23 PM
Subject: Re: Bahais terminate my AOL account (Re: fw Ruletherod on AOL Re:
Personal St...
>Two days ago I was in the bahai chat room when I discussed bahai censorship
>with Wendy. I asked her about the treatment of some bahais when it came to
>independent thinking, and I cited you as an example. Wendy further said
that
>Fred Glaysher is not a bahai and he might have some mental problems. I
asked
>her why she said that about you, she replied that you spread lies about the
>bahai faith, you attack people with no reason at all, and you are trying to
>boost your ego. I told her what about all the personal verbal attacks
against
>you, she said that you deserve such "criticism" because you have shown
nothing
>but evil. I wonder where is Wendy's "compassion." Wendy said that bahais
>love everybody including their enemies, but how she expressed herself about
>you seem to be a clear cut contradiction to that priniciple.
>
----------
From: MrMahdi@aol.com[SMTP:MrMahdi@aol.com]
Sent: Monday, March 08, 1999 1:56 PM
To: FG@hotmail.com
Subject: Re: Bahais terminate my AOL account (Re: fw Ruletherod on AOL Re: Personal
St...
Youre welcome. You can post my message, I feel that letting people know whats
going on is something that we need to do. Is it possible to give me a link to
"talk.religion.bahai?" I for some reason never tried to go and see that
place, mainly because I really didnt know where it was exactly. Also, will
you updating your web page any time soon? Would you also list the posts from
you and others that were yanked off by Mark?
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Monday, March 08, 1999 2:20 PM
To: MrMahdi@aol.com
Subject: Re: Bahais terminate my AOL account (Re: fw Ruletherod on AOL Re: Personal
St...
Thanks.
Sure will list my and others' suppressed posts. Send
anything you have and get them on as soon as I can
which may take a while though.
On AOL go Keyword Newsgroups and then
Expert Add talk.religion.bahai and it should be right
there for you. Let me know if you can't find it.
Fred
-----Original Message-----
From: MrMahdi@aol.com <MrMahdi@aol.com>
To: FG@hotmail.com <FG@hotmail.com>
Date: Monday, March 08, 1999 12:56 PM
Subject: Re: Bahais terminate my AOL account (Re: fw Ruletherod on AOL Re:
Personal St...
>Youre welcome. You can post my message, I feel that letting people know
whats
>going on is something that we need to do. Is it possible to give me a link
to
>"talk.religion.bahai?" I for some reason never tried to go and see that
>place, mainly because I really didnt know where it was exactly. Also, will
>you updating your web page any time soon? Would you also list the posts
from
>you and others that were yanked off by Mark?
>
----------
From: Ruletherod@aol.com[SMTP:Ruletherod@aol.com]
Sent: Monday, March 08, 1999 2:30 PM
To: FG@hotmail.com
Cc: Ruletherod@aol.com
Subject: Re: Bahais terminate my AOL account (Re: fw Ruletherod on AOL Re: Personal
St...
So they finally did it. I'm not surprised because most of the regulars at the
AOL board (there are many more where they came from) are the intolerant
supporters of Baha'i orthodoxy. And then you have the rabid fanatics (mostly
women in my opinion) who think they own the Baha'i faith ("Don't you go
messing with MY religion, buddy!"). Even some Baha'is who've recently joined
the Faith think it's their exclusive club and that you and I were born
yesterday--that we're the unwelcome Strangers in the Night. The irony is that
they're reducing the religions of both the Bab and Baha'u'llah to a series of
sentimental tea cliques and spoiled brat clubs for women. I had higher hopes,
but what can you accomplish when you're routinely perceived as one of the
enemy to be shunned.
It's their shunning mentality, backed up by select writings, that kills it for
me. (They conveniently forget the other writings about fanaticism, reason over
emotion, justice, etc.) The more they hold those self-serving writings up like
a crucifix and cloves of garlic, the more resigned I am never to support the
Baha'i faith again. If they want enemies, they'll have them. And their
definition of the word "enemy" is: "Think like us or you're not one of us."
One of our friends recently told me: The Baha'is like Wendy, Sunni
and Zaynab are doing untold damage to the reputation of the Faith themselves
(in they eyes of neutral lurkers) with their narrow-minded, smug and
exclusionary attitudes...and that the harm they're doing to the Faith is an
unrecognized justice. They're their own worst enemies but they're too filled
with "holy certitude" to know this. They think I'm the one with a screw
loose......but that's another story.
Let me know how things ultimately turn out for you. There's no one else to
side with me at the board anymore (as PL has left and Larry is too turned off)
and the regular crowd is giving me the cold shoulder in the hope that I'll
just leave. I've pretty much done that for now.
Mark's arrival has somehow dulled everything. It was better when it was a
free-for-all and the non-Bahai folder was at the top of the list. The threat
of censorship chills everything.
I was also surprised to learn that many of the regulars at the board like
Wendy, Roger, Debbie and some others are far older than I me.
I'll be 46 myself this May.
Please keep these thoughts confidential or they'll hang me with them. Thanks.
Take care, friend.
----------
From: MrMahdi@aol.com[SMTP:MrMahdi@aol.com]
Sent: Monday, March 08, 1999 3:15 PM
To: FG@hotmail.com
Subject: Re: Bahais terminate my AOL account (Re: fw Ruletherod on AOL Re: Personal
St...
Thanks again. I hope to see you back on AOL, I am sure that will be a slap in
the face of the bahais who were successful in getting your account terminated
(like they did mine account twice, but I came came with a "vengence" so to
speak).
----------
From: Ruletherod@aol.com[SMTP:Ruletherod@aol.com]
Sent: Monday, March 08, 1999 3:30 PM
To: FG@hotmail.com
Cc: Ruletherod@aol.com
Subject: A revision for public consumption
<<Message: Re: Bahais terminate my AOL account ...>>
Sure, Fred. Give me some time to make a revision that's more instructive than
inflammatory (I've got some errands to run today). I think it's always best to
try to reach (communicate with) the opposite camp instead of inspiring more of
the hatred that blinds them. And then there are the neutral observers that
need to be informed too without doing serious harm to the sincere ideals and
aims that the Faith has to offer.
Best wishes.
Until later.....Rule
----------
From: Ruletherod@aol.com[SMTP:Ruletherod@aol.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 1999 5:54 AM
To: FG@hotmail.com
Cc: Ruletherod@aol.com
Subject: FYI: Posted views on the board
Fred, I followed the stream of thought of our last e-mail discussion by
mentioning similar points (the one's that I wanted to reword) in some AOL
board folders.
I was replying to comments (to earlier postings of mine) by Wendy and Roy.
Wendy was saying I wasn't a Baha'i in the Forum Leader folder (not entirely
true--but still none of her business) and in the Baha'i Laws folder, Roy was
encouraging me to turn in my Baha'i card and "gracefully bow out." Anyway, I
took the opportunity to express my views. Just wanted you to know. --Rule
PS--I've noticed that the discussions at the Baha'i Studies list rarely
stoop to the levels we've encountered at the B. spirituality board. Susan
also sounds closer to some of our positions there, despite her committed
allegiance to the UHJ/Covenant. I would have been better suited to that
site....less frustrated, perhaps.
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 1999 7:40 AM
Subject: fw Mr Mahdi Re: Bahais terminate my AOL account (Re: fw Ruletherod on AOL
Re: Personal Statement on Baha'u'llah, 3 years on)
FYI
-----Original Message-----
From: MrMahdi@aol.com <MrMahdi@aol.com>
To: FG@hotmail.com <FG@hotmail.com>
Date: Monday, March 08, 1999 12:15 PM
Subject: Re: Bahais terminate my AOL account (Re: fw Ruletherod on AOL Re:
Personal St...
>This is very unfortunate and quite sinister what the bahais on AOL did to
you.
>I had my account terminated twice, and all I did was get a new account on a
>different credit (my mom's credit card so they wont recognize my first
name).
>Please dont let the fundamentalists win, meaning that if you dont ever get
>back on AOL again. You need to stand up for what's right, and not let
tyranny
>make you quit. When my account was cancelled twice, in a few minutes I was
>back on AOL with a different account and screen name because I knew that
>injustice will never make me into a quitter. I hope you will do the same.
I
>am not sure if they will recognize your name if you use a credit card with
the
>same name, because on the first time my account was cancelled I use another
>credit card with my name and nothing unusual happened. The second time I
used
>my mom's credit card because I didnt have any more credit cards. But I
hope
>to see you soon and back on AOL. Being back on AOL is a slap to the faces
on
>the bahais who were sucessful in their campaign in kicking you off. The
next
>post I will tell you about what happened while I was in the bahai chat, and
>what Wendy said about you.
>
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 1999 7:53 AM
Subject: Re: Baha'i Schools of Thought
Deana Marie Holmes wrote in message <36d83268.49279794@enews.newsguy.com>...
>
>I occasionally drop in on the Baha'i groups, and I am glad that t.r.b
>passed this time around. I've voted for it on at least two of the
>three occasions it was up for a vote, because I believe in unfettered
>discussion. I am glad to see Michael McKenny and Juan R. I. Cole
>posting here. It distresses me that there are people out there who
>simply have no concept of unfettered discussion, and are trying to
>suppress discussion in the name of what, I am not sure. If your faith
>is that insecure, then maybe you ought to examine your faith.
The people who now run the Bahai Faith are extremely insecure....
>
>I would only like to note that there are a number of people out there,
>including myself, who dislike chaining up discussion, and harassing
>people for their beliefs and their thoughts, and I am distressed to
>hear accounts that this is happening in the Baha'i Faith. I would
>only point to alt.religion.scientology and note that riling people up
>over these issues only tends to make them want to do something about
>it. I may not have much of an interest in Baha'i belief per se, but I
>do have quite an interest in free and open discussion, and I commend
>those who further that aim, and wonder about those whose intent is to
>shut down discussion. (You know who you are.)
Thanks for letting Bahais know how their censorship looks
from the outside.... Unfortunately, I'm sure they'll continue
to ignore such views.
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
>
>Carry on!
>
>
>Deana Marie Holmes / member of the "Gang of Three" (Rod Keller)
>The Few, The Proud, The Banned (2x + 1 ISP on Scientology ban list)
>$cientology: Sponsor Windows84: "Where CAN'T you go today?
>mirele@xmission.com
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 1999 7:58 AM
Subject: Re: Baha'i Schools of Thought
jrcole@umich.edu wrote in message <7ba4jh$bha$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>
>
>Dear Deana:
>
>Bless you! Ever since cyberspace emerged, members of the house of justice
>like Doug Martin, Farzam Arbab and Ian Semple, who live in Haifa, have been
>sending around "counselors" like Stephen Birkland (a professor at Metro
>University in Minneapolis!) and A.M. Ghadirian (Montreal), along with
lesser
>lackeys like their "Auxiliary Board Members" such as Freeman (Kansas City)
to
>call Baha'is to special meetings. At these meetings they are browbeaten
>about their email messages being too liberal, depicting Baha'u'llah as a
mere
>mortal, taking a historical view of scripture. And they are threatened that
>if they don't shut up, they will be disfellowshipped or even shunned.
(Being
>declared a "covenant breaker" in the Baha'i faith means that your Baha'i
>spouse has to divorce you ro face shunning, that Baha'i relatives can't see
>you at family reunions, and that all your Baha'i friends of 25 years must
cut
>you off without a further word).
This kind of shunning also takes place in cyberspace.
>
>And, of course, they simply declared Michael McKenny, a devoted Baha'i for
>quarter of a century, "not a Baha'i", which, of course, led to his
ostracism
>by many of his former Baha'i friends.
>
>The Baha'i authorities have also attempted to suppress scholarly papers,
like
>the one examining the possibility of women serving on the all-male house of
>justice.
>
>I had thought that they were behaving themselves better in the past year
and a
>half, as they allowed TRB to be voted in, and hadn't moved against any
Baha'i
>thinkers for a while. But in fact I have heard rumors of a new round of
>Inquisition recently.
The Bahai fascists in the Administration did not "allow"
talk.religion.bahai to be passed. They definitely fought
it tooth and nail right up to the very last shrieks of Susan
Maneck.... Once again, it was non-Bahais who voted for
and created talk.religion.bahai. The record is in the RESULT
on my website and elsewhere for those who care to look
more in detail.
Let me mention that the moment trb passed, the
fundamentalists dug in their heels on AOL by bringing
back Mark Foster as "Forum Leader." More on that
shortly.
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
>
>
>cheers Juan
>
>
>>
>
>Juan Cole
>History, U of Michigan
>https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai.htm
>
>-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
>https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 1999 8:00 AM
Subject: Re: Baha'i Schools of Thought
McKenny Michael wrote in message <7bbn72$5fv@freenet-news.carleton.ca>...
> Now, if any action is taken against anyone on account of what that
>person has written here, this action should be detailed completely here,
>so that the readers, Baha'is and non-Baha'is, may see what the current
>practise, or lack thereof, of Baha'i principle is.
I shall detail what has taken place to terminate my
AOL account shortly....
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
> If really Counsellor Birkland or Counsellor Ghadirian or any other
>Baha'i official is going after people who posted here, or, indeed, anyone
>at all, for the expression of personal opinion, let us read fully about
>it. Let us see what today is considered heresy in the Baha'i Faith, in
>contradiction to Baha'u'llah's urging harmony rather than divisive efforts
>to imposes uniform thought.
> In my opinion, the more openly this dark shadow of inquisition is
>exposed to the light of public scrutiny, the more hesitant officials will
>be to demonstrate their remoteness from the path presented by Baha'u'llah.
> Let us read a full account of all efforts to interfere with freedom of
>expression. I include here all encouragement by such Baha'i officials that
>talk.religion.bahai not be read. However, I especially underline the great
>necessity to place on public record any attempt by such as Counsellors
>Birkland and Ghadirian, acting on behalf of the UHJ, to intimidate and
>silence anyone. If such people succeed in keeping secret their visits and
>their demands people shut up, this allows them to imagine they can profit
>from such unprincipled action. May they realize fully the negative impact
>of such medieval behaviour.
> Let us see the true colour of this creature. In my opinion, by looking
>closely at this, gods willing, a metamorphosis will take place, and the
>entity will become what it was intended. Who, honestly, wishes to be known
>as heading a fundamentalist cult dispatching inquisitors around to enforce
>thought control? Since the thing is advertised as something quite different
>and more beneficial than that, let's shine the spotlight on it, and see if
>actually the light will banish these unwholesome shadows, leaving in real
>existence what is a blessing to humans.
> May no iota of efforts at suppression of conscience remain hidden.
> May the light ever banish all darkness.
> May those charged with diffusing spiritual fragrances be about their
>time consuming task, ceasing this contrary interference in matters of
>conscience.
> To the Future,
> Michael
>
>
>
>>
>> cheers Juan
>>
>--
>"My name's McKenny, Mike McKenny, Warrant Officer, Solar Guard."
> (Tom Corbett #1 STAND BY FOR MARS p2)
>
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 1999 9:24 AM
To: FG
Subject: Bahai Censorship on AOL
In August of 1998 I took out an account on AOL. It quickly
became apparent that my fellow Bahais were using AOL in
such a way as to further suppress knowledge and information.
It appeared to me that there were four main issues.
Alt.religion.bahai, which had been created in April of 1997
and which had had more than 20,000 messages posted
to it, was not even offered in the list of AOL newsgroups.
AOL personnel with which I spoke over the phone were
very puzzled why it wasn't and even implied that some
action would have had to have been taken to keep it from
automatically being picked up and added to their newsgroups.
It took more than a month of strenuous effort to get AOL to
add alt.religion.bahai.
On the AOL Bahai Forums it became apparent that Bahais
were manipulating and controlling information by NOT making
it available, by essentially preserving the frozen, non-functioning
state of affairs or the status quo:
1. The Libraries were not accepting new uploads for others
then to download and read.
2. The list of Newsgroups on the Main Menu for Bahai offered
only soc.religion.bahai with no mention of alt.religion.bahai
or talk.religion.bahai once it was created in January of 1999.
Coupled with soc.religion.bahai's suppression of all mention
of alt.religion.bahai or talk.religion.bahai, this prevents people
new to AOL from even hearing of their existence.
3. The available links for Web Sites on the Main Menu for Bahai
did not offered my website The Bahai Faith & Religious
Freedom of Conscience, though it has to be one of the most
visited sites on the Bahai Faith with more than 7,000 hits since
May 1998.
As the months went by my repeated attempts to improve these
deficiencies met with greater and greater opposition from the
Bahai fundamentalists on AOL. Similiarly, my requests, beginning
in August of 1998, that the Forum Leader, Mark Foster, who no
one had seen for months, resign, for derilection of duty, were
increasingly opposed while various excuses were offered for his
absence. Not until talk.religion.bahai was passed five months
later in January 1999 did he suddenly reappear only to begin
immediately reporting absolutely EVERY message I posted to
AOL as a TOS. It quickly became clearly to me that he was
back in order to target and build a case against me to have me
suspended from AOL. My account was then temporarily suspended
on three different occasions and finally terminated March 6, 1999.
Of the four issues, only two have partially been remedied.
1. Alt.religion.bahai and now talk.religion.bahai are available
on AOL's list of newsgroups.
2. The Libraries are accepting some uploads though Foster banned
the 15+ megabytes I uploaded in late February of my entire
archive of discussion for talk.religion.bahai and which is at least
available on my website. It's obvious Foster is finding pretexts for
suppressing uploads.
While Foster has claimed since mid-January that alt.religion.bahai
and talk.religion.bahai would be added to the Main Menu under
Newsgroups, he continued to make excuses for it not happening.
As of March 9, 1999 they were not yet listed under Newsgroups
along with soc.religion.bahai.
All of these factors, coupled with Mark Foster's abuse of his
position as Forum Leader and his harassing and targetting of
dissenting voices leaves no doubt in my mind that he and other
Bahais, undoubtedly some among the Bahai Administration,
are involved in censoring discourse on AOL.
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 1999 9:31 AM
Subject: Re: fw Mr Mahdi Re: Bahais terminate my AOL account (Re: fw Ruletherod on
AOL Re: Personal Statement on Baha'u'llah, 3 years on)
In August of 1998 I took out an account on AOL. It quickly
became apparent that my fellow Bahais were using AOL in
such a way as to further suppress knowledge and information.
It appeared to me that there were four main issues.
Alt.religion.bahai, which had been created in April of 1997
and which had had more than 20,000 messages posted
to it, was not even offered in the list of AOL newsgroups.
AOL personnel with which I spoke over the phone were
very puzzled why it wasn't and even implied that some
action would have had to have been taken to keep it from
automatically being picked up and added to their newsgroups.
It took more than a month of strenuous effort to get AOL to
add alt.religion.bahai.
On the AOL Bahai Forums it became apparent that Bahais
were manipulating and controlling information by NOT making
it available, by essentially preserving the frozen, non-functioning
state of affairs or the status quo:
1. The Libraries were not accepting new uploads for others
then to download and read.
2. The list of Newsgroups on the Main Menu for Bahai offered
only soc.religion.bahai with no mention of alt.religion.bahai
or talk.religion.bahai once it was created in January of 1999.
Coupled with soc.religion.bahai's suppression of all mention
of alt.religion.bahai or talk.religion.bahai, this prevents people
new to AOL from even hearing of their existence.
3. The available links for Web Sites on the Main Menu for Bahai
did not offered my website The Bahai Faith & Religious
Freedom of Conscience, though it has to be one of the most
visited sites on the Bahai Faith with more than 7,000 hits since
May 1998.
As the months went by my repeated attempts to improve these
deficiencies met with greater and greater opposition from the
Bahai fundamentalists on AOL. Similiarly, my requests, beginning
in August of 1998, that the Forum Leader, Mark Foster, who no
one had seen for months, resign, for derilection of duty, were
increasingly opposed while various excuses were offered for his
absence. Not until talk.religion.bahai was passed five months
later in January 1999 did he suddenly reappear only to begin
immediately reporting absolutely EVERY message I posted to
AOL as a TOS. It quickly became clearly to me that he was
back in order to target and build a case against me to have me
suspended from AOL. My account was then temporarily suspended
on three different occasions and finally terminated March 6, 1999.
Of the four issues, only two have partially been remedied.
1. Alt.religion.bahai and now talk.religion.bahai are available
on AOL's list of newsgroups.
2. The Libraries are accepting some uploads though Foster banned
the 15+ megabytes I uploaded in late February of my entire
archive of discussion for talk.religion.bahai and which is at least
available on my website. It's obvious Foster is finding pretexts for
suppressing uploads.
While Foster has claimed since mid-January that alt.religion.bahai
and talk.religion.bahai would be added to the Main Menu under
Newsgroups, he continued to make excuses for it not happening.
As of March 9, 1999 they were not yet listed under Newsgroups
along with soc.religion.bahai.
All of these factors, coupled with Mark Foster's abuse of his
position as Forum Leader and his harassing and targetting of
dissenting voices leaves no doubt in my mind that he and other
Bahais, undoubtedly some among the Bahai Administration,
are involved in censoring discourse on AOL.
The immediate pretext for terminating my account, according
to the AOL official with whom I spoke with on the phone, was that
I had point out in a newly created Folder called Censorship that I
and other AOL members requested one titled Bahai Censorship
and thereby undermined the authority of the Forum Leader....
In closing let me add that AOL personnel are extremely uninformed
about the Bahai Faith, especially its practice of censorship, and it's
ability to exploit its TOS system....
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 1999 9:42 AM
Subject: fw Mr Mahdi Re: Bahais terminate my AOL account (Re: fw Ruletherod on AOL
Re: Personal Statement on Baha'u'llah, 3 years on)
FYI
-----Original Message-----
From: MrMahdi@aol.com <MrMahdi@aol.com>
To: FG@hotmail.com <FG@hotmail.com>
Date: Monday, March 08, 1999 12:23 PM
Subject: Re: Bahais terminate my AOL account (Re: fw Ruletherod on AOL Re:
Personal St...
>Two days ago I was in the bahai chat room when I discussed bahai censorship
>with Wendy. I asked her about the treatment of some bahais when it came to
>independent thinking, and I cited you as an example. Wendy further said
that
>Fred Glaysher is not a bahai and he might have some mental problems. I
asked
>her why she said that about you, she replied that you spread lies about the
>bahai faith, you attack people with no reason at all, and you are trying to
>boost your ego. I told her what about all the personal verbal attacks
against
>you, she said that you deserve such "criticism" because you have shown
nothing
>but evil. I wonder where is Wendy's "compassion." Wendy said that bahais
>love everybody including their enemies, but how she expressed herself about
>you seem to be a clear cut contradiction to that priniciple.
>
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 1999 9:49 AM
Subject: Bahai Censorship on AOL (Re: Bahais terminate my AOL account)
In August of 1998 I took out an account on AOL. It quickly
became apparent that my fellow Bahais were using AOL in
such a way as to further suppress knowledge and information.
It appeared to me that there were four main issues.
Alt.religion.bahai, which had been created in April of 1997
and which had had more than 20,000 messages posted
to it, was not even offered in the list of AOL newsgroups.
AOL personnel with which I spoke over the phone were
very puzzled why it wasn't and even implied that some
action would have had to have been taken to keep it from
automatically being picked up and added to their newsgroups.
It took more than a month of strenuous effort to get AOL
to add alt.religion.bahai.
On the AOL Bahai Forums it became apparent that Bahais
were manipulating and controlling information by NOT making
it available, by essentially preserving the frozen, non-functioning
state of affairs or the status quo:
1. The Libraries were not accepting new uploads for others
then to download and read.
2. The list of Newsgroups on the Main Menu for Bahai offered
only soc.religion.bahai with no mention of alt.religion.bahai,
or talk.religion.bahai once it was created in January of 1999.
Coupled with soc.religion.bahai's suppression of all mention
of alt.religion.bahai or talk.religion.bahai, this prevents people
from even hearing of their existence.
3. The available links for Web Sites on the Main Menu for Bahai
did not offered my website The Bahai Faith & Religious
Freedom of Conscience, though it has to be one of the most
visited sites on the Bahai Faith with more than 7,000 hits since
May 1998.
As the months went by, my repeated attempts to improve these
deficiencies met with greater and greater opposition from the
Bahai fundamentalists on AOL. Similiarly, my requests, beginning
in August of 1998, that the Forum Leader, Mark Foster, who no
one had seen for months, resign, for derilection of duty, were
increasingly opposed while various excuses were offered for his
absence. Not until talk.religion.bahai was passed five months
later in January 1999 did he suddenly reappear only to begin
immediately reporting absolutely EVERY message I posted to
AOL as a TOS. It quickly became clear to me that he was
back in order to target and build a case against me to have me
suspended from AOL. My account was then temporarily suspended
on three different occasions and finally terminated March 6, 1999.
Of the four issues, only two have partially been remedied.
1. Alt.religion.bahai and now talk.religion.bahai are available
under AOL's Keyword Newsgroups, Expert Add.
2. The Libraries are accepting some uploads, though Foster banned
the 15+ megabytes I uploaded in late February of my entire
archive of discussion for talk.religion.bahai and which is at least
available on my website. It's obvious Foster is finding pretexts for
suppressing further uploads.
While Foster has claimed since mid-January that alt.religion.bahai
and talk.religion.bahai would be added to the Main Menu under
Newsgroups, he continued to make excuses for it not happening.
As of March 9, 1999 they were not yet listed under Newsgroups
along with soc.religion.bahai.
All of these factors, coupled with Mark Foster's abuse of his
position as Forum Leader and his harassing and targetting of
dissenting voices, not only mine, leaves no doubt that he and
other Bahais, including some among the Bahai Administration,
are involved in censoring discourse on AOL.
The immediate pretext for terminating my account, according
to the AOL official with whom I spoke with on the phone, was that
I had point out in a newly created Folder called Censorship that I
and other AOL members had requested one entitled Bahai Censorship
and thereby undermined the authority of the Forum Leader....
In closing let me add that AOL personnel are extremely uninformed
about the Bahai Faith, especially its practice of censorship, and its
ability to exploit the TOS system....
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 1999 9:51 AM
Subject: Re: fw Mr Mahdi Re: Bahais terminate my AOL account (Re: fw Ruletherod on
AOL Re: Personal Statement on Baha'u'llah, 3 years on)
FYI
-----Original Message-----
From: MrMahdi@aol.com <MrMahdi@aol.com>
To: FG@hotmail.com <FG@hotmail.com>
Date: Monday, March 08, 1999 2:15 PM
Subject: Re: Bahais terminate my AOL account (Re: fw Ruletherod on AOL Re:
Personal St...
>Thanks again. I hope to see you back on AOL, I am sure that will be a slap
in
>the face of the bahais who were successful in getting your account
terminated
>(like they did mine account twice, but I came came with a "vengence" so to
>speak).
>
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 1999 9:53 AM
Subject: fw Mr Mahdi Re: Bahais terminate my AOL account
FYI
-----Original Message-----
From: MrMahdi@aol.com <MrMahdi@aol.com>
To: FG@hotmail.com <FG@hotmail.com>
Date: Monday, March 08, 1999 12:56 PM
Subject: Re: Bahais terminate my AOL account (Re: fw Ruletherod on AOL Re:
Personal St...
>Youre welcome. You can post my message, I feel that letting people know
whats
>going on is something that we need to do. Is it possible to give me a link
to
>"talk.religion.bahai?" I for some reason never tried to go and see that
>place, mainly because I really didnt know where it was exactly. Also, will
>you updating your web page any time soon? Would you also list the posts
from
>you and others that were yanked off by Mark?
>
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 1999 9:57 AM
To: Ruletherod@aol.com
Subject: Re: Posted views on the board
>PS--I've noticed that the discussions at the Baha'i Studies list rarely
>stoop to the levels we've encountered at the B. spirituality board. Susan
>also sounds closer to some of our positions there, despite her committed
>allegiance to the UHJ/Covenant.
Don't trust Susan. I've watched her on
several lists and forums change and stab people
when it suits her purposes.... You should read her
article on hikmat to understand what she's really
doing. There's a link to it on my website and on
Cole's.
I'd really appreciate your revised message. It
would help people on trb to understand that I was
not alone in being attacked by Foster.
Fred
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 1999 9:59 AM
Subject: fw RobertNik@aol.com Re: Bahais terminate my AOL account
FYI
-----Original Message-----
From: RobertNik@aol.com <RobertNik@aol.com>
To: FG@hotmail.com <FG@hotmail.com>
Date: Monday, March 08, 1999 6:53 AM
Subject: Re: Bahais terminate my AOL account (Re: fw Ruletherod on AOL Re:
Personal St.
>In a message dated 08/03/99 11:52:02 GMT, you write:
>
><< Bahais on AOL have been successful in terminating
> my account through a systematic campaign of slander
> and deceit.
>
> FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
> https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
> alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
> >>
>
>Oh no. I nver thought it would get to this. look its not that big a deal.
its
>just the internet after all.
>
>
>all the best
>
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 1999 10:01 AM
Subject: Re: Bahais terminate my AOL account
Sent to Jerri White, Administrator, Lifestyles Forum,
at AOL prior to my termination:
-----Original Message-----
From: FG@aol.com <FG@aol.com>
To: RBCFAdmin@aol.com <RBCFAdmin@aol.com>
Cc: FG@hotmail.com <FG@hotmail.com>
Date: Friday, March 05, 1999 5:41 PM
Subject: Re: False TOS by Mark Foster - hikmat folder
>I believe Foster is using his power to target people
>with TOSs to silence and intimidate them and he
>does it here as well by deleting the person's message.
>Asserting false TOSs against people violates the TOS
>rules, and Foster does it constantly in my opinion.
>
>The ones he's alleged against me are the same type
>and that's why I refused and refuse to accept the
>burden of emailing you TOSsed messages. AOL has
>them. I'm innocent untill proven guilty. The burden of
>proof is on you and Foster.
>
>He continues to use his "authority" to the detriment of
>AOL members he disagrees with for religious reasons.
>I and others, for instance, requested a Folder titled
>"Bahai Censorship." He created one titled merely
>Censorship which misses the entire point of the Forum.
>Further, I've requested since August that alt.religion.bahai
>and talk.religion.bahai be added to the Newsgroup menu
>along with soc.religion.bahai, the fundamentalist newsgroup.
>He has continually made excuses and continues to drag
>it along.
>
>I believe it's your responsibility to act as a fair arbiter and
>intervene. Notice it's a fair request. Alt.religon.bahai has
>had over 30,000 posts to it and existed since April of 1997.
>Talk.religion.bahai, newly formed on a Big 8 hierarchy,
>had 1,700+ posts in its first month.
>
>AOL should not support the fundamentalists in what is
>essentially a legitimate debate over religious interpretations
>but allow a free and open discussion, which Foster is
>doing everything in his power to stymie.
>
>
>
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 1999 10:04 AM
To: ONElist Tech Support
Cc: abuse@usa.net
Subject: Re: TESTCASE2@USA.NET Thanks!
I just want to thank everyone involved in stopping the
testcase2@usa.net spammer. My mailbox is back
to a normal four or five messages a day instead of
800 plus!
Gratefully,
Fred Glaysher
FG@hotmail.com
-----Original Message-----
From: ONElist Tech Support <admin@onelist.com>
To: FG <FG@hotmail.com>
Date: Friday, March 05, 1999 2:34 PM
Subject: Re: TESTCASE2@USA.NET SPAMMER Re: Your account size is too large
>Hi Fred
>
>I have written to testcase2@usa.net and request he cease from sending you
any
>mail. As you are subscribed to ONElist it must be being forwarded
>directly from the email address.
>
>Kate
>ONElist Team
>--
>When replying to this message, please include the entire message.
>ONElist Tech Support Free Mailing Lists
>https://www.onelist.com admin@onelist.com
>
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 1999 2:12 PM
Subject: REVISED: Bahai Censorship on AOL
In August of 1998 I took out an account on AOL. It quickly
became apparent that my fellow Bahais were using AOL in
such a way as to further withhold knowledge and information
from AOL's more than 14 million members.
It appeared to me that there were four main issues.
Alt.religion.bahai, which had been created in April of 1997
and which had had more than 20,000 messages posted
to it, was not even offered in the list of AOL newsgroups.
AOL personnel with which I spoke over the phone were
very puzzled why it wasn't and even implied that some
action would have had to have been taken to keep it from
automatically being picked up and added to their newsgroups.
It took more than a month of strenuous effort to get AOL
to add alt.religion.bahai.
On the AOL Bahai Forums it became apparent that Bahais
were manipulating and controlling information by NOT making
it available, by essentially preserving the frozen, non-functioning
state of affairs or the status quo:
1. The Libraries were not accepting new uploads for others
then to download and read.
2. The list of Newsgroups on the Main Menu for Bahai offered
only soc.religion.bahai with no mention of alt.religion.bahai,
or talk.religion.bahai once it was created in January of 1999.
Coupled with soc.religion.bahai's suppression of all mention
of alt.religion.bahai or talk.religion.bahai, this prevents people
from even hearing of their existence.
3. The available links for Web Sites on the Main Menu for Bahai
did not offered my website The Bahai Faith & Religious
Freedom of Conscience, though it has to be one of the most
visited sites on the Bahai Faith with more than 7,000 hits since
May 1998.
As the months went by, my repeated attempts to improve these
deficiencies met with greater and greater opposition from the
Bahai fundamentalists on AOL. Similiarly, my requests, beginning
in August of 1998, that the Forum Leader, Mark Foster, who no
one had seen for months, resign, for derilection of duty, were
increasingly opposed while various excuses were offered for his
absence. Not until talk.religion.bahai was passed five months
later in January 1999 did he suddenly reappear only to begin
immediately reporting absolutely EVERY message I posted to
AOL as a TOS. It quickly became clear to me that he was
back in order to target and build a case against me to have me
suspended from AOL. My account was then temporarily suspended
on three different occasions and finally terminated March 6, 1999.
Of the four issues, only two have partially been remedied.
1. Alt.religion.bahai and now talk.religion.bahai are available
under AOL's Keyword Newsgroups, Expert Add.
2. The Libraries are accepting some uploads, though Foster banned
the 15+ megabytes I uploaded in late February of my entire
archive of discussion for talk.religion.bahai and which is at least
available on my website. It's obvious Foster is finding pretexts for
suppressing further uploads.
While Foster has claimed since mid-January that alt.religion.bahai
and talk.religion.bahai would be added to the Main Menu under
Newsgroups, he continued to make excuses for it not happening.
As of March 9, 1999 they were not yet listed under Newsgroups
along with soc.religion.bahai.
All of these factors, coupled with Mark Foster's abuse of his
position as Forum Leader and his harassing and targetting of
dissenting voices, not only mine, leaves no doubt that he and
other Bahais, including some among the Bahai Administration,
are involved in censoring discourse on AOL.
The immediate pretext for terminating my account, according
to the AOL official with whom I spoke with on the phone, was that
I had point out in a newly created Folder called Censorship that I
and other AOL members had requested one entitled Bahai Censorship
and thereby undermined the authority of the Forum Leader....
In closing let me add that AOL personnel are extremely uninformed
about the Bahai Faith, especially its practice of censorship, and its
ability to exploit the TOS system....
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 1999 8:54 AM
Subject: REVISED: Bahai Censorship on AOL
In August of 1998 I took out an account on AOL. It quickly
became apparent that my fellow Bahais were using AOL in
such a way as to further withhold knowledge and information
from AOL's more than 14 million members.
It appeared to me that there were four main issues.
Alt.religion.bahai, which had been created in April of 1997
and which had had more than 20,000 messages posted
to it, was not even offered in the list of AOL newsgroups.
AOL personnel with which I spoke over the phone were
very puzzled why it wasn't and even implied that some
action would have had to have been taken to keep it from
automatically being picked up and added to their newsgroups.
It took more than a month of strenuous effort to get AOL
to add alt.religion.bahai.
On the AOL Bahai Forums it became apparent that Bahais
were manipulating and controlling information by NOT making
it available, by essentially preserving the frozen, non-functioning
state of affairs or the status quo:
1. The Libraries were not accepting new uploads for others
then to download and read.
2. The list of Newsgroups on the Main Menu for Bahai offered
only soc.religion.bahai with no mention of alt.religion.bahai,
or talk.religion.bahai once it was created in January of 1999.
Coupled with soc.religion.bahai's suppression of all mention
of alt.religion.bahai or talk.religion.bahai, this prevents people
from even hearing of their existence.
3. The available links for Web Sites on the Main Menu for Bahai
did not offered my website The Bahai Faith & Religious
Freedom of Conscience, though it has to be one of the most
visited sites on the Bahai Faith with more than 7,000 hits since
May 1998.
As the months went by, my repeated attempts to improve these
deficiencies met with greater and greater opposition from the
Bahai fundamentalists on AOL. Similiarly, my requests, beginning
in August of 1998, that the Forum Leader, Mark Foster, who no
one had seen for months, resign, for derilection of duty, were
increasingly opposed while various excuses were offered for his
absence. Not until talk.religion.bahai was passed five months
later in January 1999 did he suddenly reappear only to begin
immediately reporting absolutely EVERY message I posted to
AOL as a TOS. It quickly became clear to me that he was
back in order to target and build a case against me to have me
suspended from AOL. My account was then temporarily suspended
on three different occasions and finally terminated March 6, 1999.
Of the four issues, only two have partially been remedied.
1. Alt.religion.bahai and now talk.religion.bahai are available
under AOL's Keyword Newsgroups, Expert Add.
2. The Libraries are accepting some uploads, though Foster banned
the 15+ megabytes I uploaded in late February of my entire
archive of discussion for talk.religion.bahai and which is at least
available on my website. It's obvious Foster is finding pretexts for
suppressing further uploads.
While Foster has claimed since mid-January that alt.religion.bahai
and talk.religion.bahai would be added to the Main Menu under
Newsgroups, he continued to make excuses for it not happening.
As of March 9, 1999 they were not yet listed under Newsgroups
along with soc.religion.bahai.
All of these factors, coupled with Mark Foster's abuse of his
position as Forum Leader and his harassing and targetting of
dissenting voices, not only mine, leaves no doubt that he and
other Bahais, including some among the Bahai Administration,
are involved in censoring discourse on AOL.
For an instance of "back-channel" email coercion on AOL see
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/AOL.htm
For an instance of Foster's double standard handling
fundamentalist Bahais see Susan Maneck's accusations on
AOL against me of "slander" and references to my views as
"garbage":
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/Maneck1.htm
The immediate pretext for terminating my account, according
to the AOL official with whom I spoke on the phone, was that
I had pointed out in a newly created Folder called Censorship that I
and other AOL members had requested a Folder entitled Bahai
Censorship and thereby undermined the authority of the Forum
Leader....
In closing let me add that AOL personnel are extremely uninformed
about the Bahai Faith, especially its practice of censorship, and its
ability to exploit the TOS system....
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, March 11, 1999 8:07 AM
To: Ruletherod@aol.com
Subject: Re: Bahais terminate my AOL account (Re: fw Ruletherod on AOL Re: Personal
St...
Rule,
Looking again at your message, I'm not sure you need
to revise it. I could post it as from an AOL member who
request annonymity. I don't see anything in it that would
identify you:
>So they finally did it. I'm not surprised because most of the regulars at
the
>AOL board (there are many more where they came from) are the intolerant
>supporters of Baha'i orthodoxy. And then you have the rabid fanatics
(mostly
>women in my opinion) who think they own the Baha'i faith ("Don't you go
>messing with MY religion, buddy!"). Even some Baha'is who've recently
joined
>the Faith think it's their exclusive club and that you and I were born
>yesterday--that we're the unwelcome Strangers in the Night. The irony is
that
>they're reducing the religions of both the Bab and Baha'u'llah to a series
of
>sentimental tea cliques and spoiled brat clubs for women. I had higher
hopes,
>but what can you accomplish when you're routinely perceived as one of the
>enemy to be shunned.
>
>It's their shunning mentality, backed up by select writings, that kills it
for
>me. (They conveniently forget the other writings about fanaticism, reason
over
>emotion, justice, etc.) The more they hold those self-serving writings up
like
>a crucifix and cloves of garlic, the more resigned I am never to support
the
>Baha'i faith again. If they want enemies, they'll have them. And their
>definition of the word "enemy" is: "Think like us or you're not one of
us."
>
>One of our friends recently told me: The Baha'is like Wendy, Sunni
>and Zaynab are doing untold damage to the reputation of the Faith
themselves
>(in they eyes of neutral lurkers) with their narrow-minded, smug and
>exclusionary attitudes...and that the harm they're doing to the Faith is an
>unrecognized justice. They're their own worst enemies but they're too
filled
>with "holy certitude" to know this. They think I'm the one with a screw
>loose......but that's another story.
>
>Let me know how things ultimately turn out for you. There's no one else to
>side with me at the board anymore (as PL has left and Larry is too turned
off)
>and the regular crowd is giving me the cold shoulder in the hope that I'll
>just leave. I've pretty much done that for now.
>
>Mark's arrival has somehow dulled everything. It was better when it was a
>free-for-all and the non-Bahai folder was at the top of the list. The
threat
>of censorship chills everything.
>
>I was also surprised to learn that many of the regulars at the board like
>Wendy, Roger, Debbie and some others are far older than I me.
>I'll be 46 myself this May.
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Friday, March 12, 1999 6:51 AM
Subject: Annonymous AOL member on Bahai Forums (REVISED: Bahai Censorship on
AOL)
FYI - TO PROTECT THE INNOCENT:
So they finally did it. I'm not surprised because most of the regulars at
the
AOL board (there are many more where they came from) are the intolerant
supporters of Baha'i orthodoxy. And then you have the rabid fanatics (mostly
women in my opinion) who think they own the Baha'i faith ("Don't you go
messing with MY religion, buddy!"). Even some Baha'is who've recently joined
the Faith think it's their exclusive club and that you and I were born
yesterday--that we're the unwelcome Strangers in the Night. The irony is
that
they're reducing the religions of both the Bab and Baha'u'llah to a series
of
sentimental tea cliques and spoiled brat clubs for women. I had higher
hopes,
but what can you accomplish when you're routinely perceived as one of the
enemy to be shunned.
It's their shunning mentality, backed up by select writings, that kills it
for
me. (They conveniently forget the other writings about fanaticism, reason
over
emotion, justice, etc.) The more they hold those self-serving writings up
like
a crucifix and cloves of garlic, the more resigned I am never to support the
Baha'i faith again. If they want enemies, they'll have them. And their
definition of the word "enemy" is: "Think like us or you're not one of us."
One of our friends recently told me: The Baha'is like Wendy, Sunni
and Zaynab are doing untold damage to the reputation of the Faith themselves
(in they eyes of neutral lurkers) with their narrow-minded, smug and
exclusionary attitudes...and that the harm they're doing to the Faith is an
unrecognized justice. They're their own worst enemies but they're too filled
with "holy certitude" to know this. They think I'm the one with a screw
loose......but that's another story.
Let me know how things ultimately turn out for you. There's no one else to
side with me at the board anymore (as PL has left and Larry is too turned
off)
and the regular crowd is giving me the cold shoulder in the hope that I'll
just leave. I've pretty much done that for now.
Mark's arrival has somehow dulled everything. It was better when it was a
free-for-all and the non-Bahai folder was at the top of the list. The threat
of censorship chills everything.
I was also surprised to learn that many of the regulars at the board like
Wendy, Roger, Debbie and some others are far older than I me.
I'll be 46 myself this May.
----------
From: Ruletherod@aol.com[SMTP:Ruletherod@aol.com]
Sent: Friday, March 12, 1999 8:16 AM
To: FG@hotmail.com
Cc: Ruletherod@aol.com
Subject: Revised version of my message for your site (anonymously)
Dear Fred,
I've edited the following Email you sent me (representing my previous
message). Such revision is necessary or all the people I've mentioned will get
hurt--not my intention. I want to avoid the personal and just speak to the
issue. Because of select words in my original message, some Baha'is would know
right away that I'd written it (and they might anyway). So I've changed them
too. Yes, you can leave my name off it this time so readers will just consider
the message on its own merits. People will be more accepting of my criticisms
if they're not quite so harsh (words that were written when I was upset).
After all, my target audience is a general one, representing all kinds of
lurkers. We have to be tactful and accurate in the final analysis.
Thank you.
______________________________________________________
>So they finally did it [terminated your account]. I'm not surprised because
some of the regulars at the AOL board (there are many more where they came
from) are the intolerant supporters of Baha'i orthodoxy. And then you have a
few zealous extremists who think they own the copyright on the name Baha'i
("Don't you go messing with MY religion, buddy!").
Because some Baha'is don't know "the opposition"
well, they imagine we were born yesterday and haven't studied the Writings;
that we're the unwelcome Strangers in the Night. The sad irony is that they're
reducing the religions of the Bab and Baha'u'llah to a series of sentimental
tea cliques and spoiled brat clubs for society's disfranchised women. I had
higher hopes, but what can you accomplish when you're routinely perceived as
one of the enemy to be shunned?
It's this shunning mentality, backed up by select Writings, that kills it for
me. (They conveniently forget the other writings about fanaticism, reason over
emotion, justice, etc.) The more they hold those self-serving
Writings up like a crucifix and cloves of garlic, the more resigned I am not
to support the Baha'is. If they want enemies, they'll have them.
And their definition of the word "enemy" is: "Think like us or you're not one
of us."
The religious extremists are their own worst enemies (an unrecognized
justice) but they're too filled with "holy certitude" to know this. They think
I'm the one with the screw loose.....but that's another story that I'm
presently consulting my shrink about.
----------
From: Ruletherod@aol.com[SMTP:Ruletherod@aol.com]
Sent: Friday, March 12, 1999 8:16 AM
To: FG@hotmail.com
Cc: Ruletherod@aol.com
Subject: Revised version of my message for your site (anonymously)
Dear Fred,
I've edited the following Email you sent me (representing my previous
message). Such revision is necessary or all the people I've mentioned will get
hurt--not my intention. I want to avoid the personal and just speak to the
issue. Because of select words in my original message, some Baha'is would know
right away that I'd written it (and they might anyway). So I've changed them
too. Yes, you can leave my name off it this time so readers will just consider
the message on its own merits. People will be more accepting of my criticisms
if they're not quite so harsh (words that were written when I was upset).
After all, my target audience is a general one, representing all kinds of
lurkers. We have to be tactful and accurate in the final analysis.
Thank you.
______________________________________________________
>So they finally did it [terminated your account]. I'm not surprised because
some of the regulars at the AOL board (there are many more where they came
from) are the intolerant supporters of Baha'i orthodoxy. And then you have a
few zealous extremists who think they own the copyright on the name Baha'i
("Don't you go messing with MY religion, buddy!").
Because some Baha'is don't know "the opposition"
well, they imagine we were born yesterday and haven't studied the Writings;
that we're the unwelcome Strangers in the Night. The sad irony is that they're
reducing the religions of the Bab and Baha'u'llah to a series of sentimental
tea cliques and spoiled brat clubs for society's disfranchised women. I had
higher hopes, but what can you accomplish when you're routinely perceived as
one of the enemy to be shunned?
It's this shunning mentality, backed up by select Writings, that kills it for
me. (They conveniently forget the other writings about fanaticism, reason over
emotion, justice, etc.) The more they hold those self-serving
Writings up like a crucifix and cloves of garlic, the more resigned I am not
to support the Baha'is. If they want enemies, they'll have them.
And their definition of the word "enemy" is: "Think like us or you're not one
of us."
The religious extremists are their own worst enemies (an unrecognized
justice) but they're too filled with "holy certitude" to know this. They think
I'm the one with the screw loose.....but that's another story that I'm
presently consulting my shrink about.
----------
From: Barthaman@aol.com[SMTP:Barthaman@aol.com]
Sent: Friday, March 12, 1999 10:30 AM
To: FG@hotmail.com
Cc: Barthaman@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: Annonymous AOL member on Bahai Forums (REVISED: Bahai
Censorship on AOL)
<<Message: Annonymous AOL member on Ba...>>
Fred, you need to take this version down immediately and replace it with the
one I sent you this morning. This will burn all my bridges as Baha'is and non-
Baha'is will be forwarding it to others. Larry won't like it either because it
was sent out without his permission.
Oh God, I thought you'd wait long enough for my response.
I'm writing under this screen name because I'd didn't see it under my other
one. Some of the Baha'is I mentioned below are friends who won't
like being listed in this context. I'm embarrassed and saddened. Zaynab, for
instance, changed toward me in recent days--now she'll think I've stabbed her
in the back.
----------
From: MrMahdi@aol.com[SMTP:MrMahdi@aol.com]
Sent: Saturday, March 13, 1999 2:06 AM
To: FG@hotmail.com
Subject: Re: Annonymous AOL member on Bahai Forums (REVISED: Bahai Censorship
on AOL)
Its sad what happened to you, I hope things will work out for the better. I
often am in the bahai chats, and some of the bahais like Wendy, Zaynab, and
Jool are elated at your non-presense on AOL. It is kind of sad that they will
consider you as a non-bahai and a mad man. I see often from people like then
a snobbish type of I am better than you and I will not deal with those below
me type of attitude. They give the impression that they are real bahais and
anybody who is not up to their standards are less bahai are not bahai at all.
Of course as you know I dont agree with the bahai faith, but that doesnt mean
I will not stand up for a fellow human being when he is being oppressed or
suppressed without right. In this case, a person's religion is irrelevant,
but his honor and him being human is relevant. I have seen persons or groups
of people try to bring down a person, but I never saw such a well-organized
campaign of trying to take a person down all because his views on censorships
are too much for them to handle.
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, March 13, 1999 9:36 AM
Subject: Re: Annonymous AOL member on Bahai Forums (REVISED: Bahai Censorship
on AOL)
FYI - Draft #2 TO PROTECT THE INNOCENT:
>So they finally did it [terminated your account]. I'm not surprised because
some of the regulars at the AOL board (there are many more where they came
from) are the intolerant supporters of Baha'i orthodoxy. And then you have a
few zealous extremists who think they own the copyright on the name Baha'i
("Don't you go messing with MY religion, buddy!").
Because some Baha'is don't know "the opposition"
well, they imagine we were born yesterday and haven't studied the Writings;
that we're the unwelcome Strangers in the Night. The sad irony is that
they're
reducing the religions of the Bab and Baha'u'llah to a series of sentimental
tea cliques and spoiled brat clubs for society's disfranchised women. I had
higher hopes, but what can you accomplish when you're routinely perceived as
one of the enemy to be shunned?
It's this shunning mentality, backed up by select Writings, that kills it
for
me. (They conveniently forget the other writings about fanaticism, reason
over
emotion, justice, etc.) The more they hold those self-serving
Writings up like a crucifix and cloves of garlic, the more resigned I am not
to support the Baha'is. If they want enemies, they'll have them.
And their definition of the word "enemy" is: "Think like us or you're not
one
of us."
The religious extremists are their own worst enemies (an unrecognized
justice) but they're too filled with "holy certitude" to know this. They
think
I'm the one with the screw loose.....but that's another story that I'm
presently consulting my shrink about.
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, March 13, 1999 9:44 AM
To: Barthaman@aol.com
Subject: Re: Annonymous AOL member on Bahai Forums (REVISED: Bahai Censorship
on AOL)
>Fred, you need to take this version down immediately and replace it with
the
>one I sent you this morning. This will burn all my bridges as Baha'is and
non-
>Baha'is will be forwarding it to others. Larry won't like it either because
it
>was sent out without his permission.
Barthaman, you are also Ruletherod, apparently?
I wouldn't worry about burning bridges with the Bahai
fanatics since none really exist.... Who's Larry?
>Oh God, I thought you'd wait long enough for my response.
>I'm writing under this screen name because I'd didn't see it under my other
>one. Some of the Baha'is I mentioned below are friends who won't
>like being listed in this context. I'm embarrassed and saddened. Zaynab,
for
>instance, changed toward me in recent days--now she'll think I've stabbed
her
>in the back.
You can blame it on me. My fellow Bahais need to
hear the undiluted Truth.... I'm sorry if you're mad at
me for posting it. I waited a few days and asked you
if it would be okay anonymously. I clipped your name
and closing and don't really think it will matter since the
fanatics have gone into the shunning mode with
anything I post.
Other people too need to know the truth....
You're first draft has more vigor and life to it.
Fred
----------
From: Barthaman@aol.com[SMTP:Barthaman@aol.com]
Sent: Saturday, March 13, 1999 11:26 AM
To: FG@hotmail.com
Cc: Barthaman@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: Annonymous AOL member on Bahai Forums (REVISED: Bahai
Censorship on AOL)
<<Message: Re: Annonymous AOL member on Bahai F...>>
I lost my computer connection during that time. Larry is Nadle.
Private conversations are often candidly to the point because we're
assuming our words are not being lurked upon by the people who would be most
offended -- including the people we care about. When we think otherwise, we're
less candid with the truth......unless it's a public forum.......and even
there we don't invite people into our locker rooms to study our anatomy.
I realize the misunderstanding in this instance. However, my silly comment
about some people being older than me may be taken wrong by some as a putdown
-- and age has nothing to do with the issues we've been addressing. Anyway, I
hope that when the dust clouds finally settle I won't be a handful of bones
six feet under.....with my soul stored
in someone's freezer.
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, March 14, 1999 2:36 PM
Subject: Re: Annonymous AOL member on Bahai Forums (REVISED: Bahai Censorship
on AOL)
Smaneck wrote in message <19990313145342.11473.00000238@ng-cg1.aol.com>...
>I have just finished communicating with the person who wrote this private
>message to Fred. He had specifically requested Fred *not* publicize his
private
>email and is extremely distressed that his wishes were ignored and his
privacy
>violated in this fashion.
"The Bahai Technique":
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/technique.htm
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, March 14, 1999 2:40 PM
Subject: fw MrMahdi Re: Bahai Censorship on AOL
FYI
From: MrMahdi@aol.com
To: FG@hotmail.com
Subject: Re: Annonymous AOL member on Bahai Forums (REVISED: Bahai
Censorship
on AOL)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 01:06:28 EST
MIME-Version: 1.0
From mrmahdi@aol.com Fri Mar 12 22:08:45 1999
Received: from MrMahdi@aol.comby imo17.mx.aol.com (IMOv19.3) id
iWAJa09661for
<FG@hotmail.com>; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 01:06:28 -0500 (EST)
Message-ID: <d62d26f5.36ea0064@aol.com>
X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 13
View Email Message Source
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Its sad what happened to you, I hope things will work out for the better. I
often am in the bahai chats, and some of the bahais like Wendy, Zaynab, and
Jool are elated at your non-presense on AOL. It is kind of sad that they
will
consider you as a non-bahai and a mad man. I see often from people like
then
a snobbish type of I am better than you and I will not deal with those below
me type of attitude. They give the impression that they are real bahais and
anybody who is not up to their standards are less bahai are not bahai at
all.
Of course as you know I dont agree with the bahai faith, but that doesnt
mean
I will not stand up for a fellow human being when he is being oppressed or
suppressed without right. In this case, a person's religion is irrelevant,
but his honor and him being human is relevant. I have seen persons or
groups
of people try to bring down a person, but I never saw such a well-organized
campaign of trying to take a person down all because his views on
censorships
are too much for them to handle.
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, March 14, 1999 2:44 PM
To: Barthaman@aol.com
Cc: FG@hotmail.com
Subject: Re: Fwd: Annonymous AOL member on Bahai Forums (REVISED: Bahai
Censorship on AOL)
Barthaman,
Maneck is making the claim below on talk.religion.bahai:
I have just finished communicating with the person who wrote this
private
message to Fred. He had specifically requested Fred *not* publicize his
private
email and is extremely distressed that his wishes were ignored and his
privacy
violated in this fashion.
Susan Stiles Maneck
History, Stetson University
May I post your message below there in response?
Fred
>From: Barthaman@aol.com
>To: FG@hotmail.com
>CC: Barthaman@aol.com
>Subject: Fwd: Annonymous AOL member on Bahai Forums (REVISED: Bahai
Censorship on AOL)
>Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 10:26:50 EST
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>From barthaman@aol.com Sat Mar 13 07:38:29 1999
>Received: from Barthaman@aol.comby imo23.mx.aol.com (IMOv19.3) id
iENJa15478;Sat, 13 Mar 1999 10:26:50 -0500 (EST)
>Message-ID: <472cc36f.36ea83ba@aol.com>
>X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4
>
>I lost my computer connection during that time. Larry is Nadle.
>
>Private conversations are often candidly to the point because we're
>assuming our words are not being lurked upon by the people who would be
most
>offended -- including the people we care about. When we think
otherwise, we're
>less candid with the truth......unless it's a public forum.......and
even
>there we don't invite people into our locker rooms to study our
anatomy.
>
>I realize the misunderstanding in this instance. However, my silly
comment
>about some people being older than me may be taken wrong by some as a
putdown
>-- and age has nothing to do with the issues we've been addressing.
Anyway, I
>hope that when the dust clouds finally settle I won't be a handful of
bones
>six feet under.....with my soul stored
>in someone's freezer.
>
><< attach3 >>
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at https://www.hotmail.com
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, March 14, 1999 2:56 PM
To: MrMahdi@aol.com
Subject: Re: Annonymous AOL member on Bahai Forums (REVISED: Bahai Censorship
on AOL)
Mr. Mahdi,
Thanks for saying all this. I appreciate hearing
from someone on AOL who's fair and honest about
what is taking place there. You fully understand the
complexity of the deceit that some Bahais are
committing there, unlike the people in charge of
the AOL TOS system.
I've posted your message on talk.religion.bahai.
Hope you don't mind. I think others would benefit
from hearing your views too.
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
-----Original Message-----
From: MrMahdi@aol.com <MrMahdi@aol.com>
To: FG@hotmail.com <FG@hotmail.com>
Date: Saturday, March 13, 1999 1:06 AM
Subject: Re: Annonymous AOL member on Bahai Forums (REVISED: Bahai
Censorship on AOL)
>Its sad what happened to you, I hope things will work out for the better.
I
>often am in the bahai chats, and some of the bahais like Wendy, Zaynab, and
>Jool are elated at your non-presense on AOL. It is kind of sad that they
will
>consider you as a non-bahai and a mad man. I see often from people like
then
>a snobbish type of I am better than you and I will not deal with those
below
>me type of attitude. They give the impression that they are real bahais
and
>anybody who is not up to their standards are less bahai are not bahai at
all.
>Of course as you know I dont agree with the bahai faith, but that doesnt
mean
>I will not stand up for a fellow human being when he is being oppressed or
>suppressed without right. In this case, a person's religion is irrelevant,
>but his honor and him being human is relevant. I have seen persons or
groups
>of people try to bring down a person, but I never saw such a well-organized
>campaign of trying to take a person down all because his views on
censorships
>are too much for them to handle.
>
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, March 14, 1999 3:02 PM
To: RBCFAdmin@aol.com
Subject: Re: fw MrMahdi Re: Bahai Censorship on AOL
Mr. Mahdi,
Thanks for saying all this. I appreciate hearing
from someone on AOL who's fair and honest about
what is taking place there. You fully understand the
complexity of the deceit that some Bahais are
committing on AOL, while those in charge of the AOL
TOS system definitely don't even have a clue....
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
FG wrote in message <7ch0ae$2f0u@news1.newsguy.com>...
>FYI
>
>From: MrMahdi@aol.com
>To: FG@hotmail.com
>Subject: Re: Annonymous AOL member on Bahai Forums (REVISED: Bahai
>Censorship
> on AOL)
>Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 01:06:28 EST
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>From mrmahdi@aol.com Fri Mar 12 22:08:45 1999
>Received: from MrMahdi@aol.comby imo17.mx.aol.com (IMOv19.3) id
>iWAJa09661for
> <FG@hotmail.com>; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 01:06:28 -0500 (EST)
>Message-ID: <d62d26f5.36ea0064@aol.com>
>X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 13
>View Email Message Source
>Reply Reply All Forward Delete Previous Next Close
>Content-Type: text/plain
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
>Its sad what happened to you, I hope things will work out for the better.
I
>often am in the bahai chats, and some of the bahais like Wendy, Zaynab, and
>Jool are elated at your non-presense on AOL. It is kind of sad that they
>will
>consider you as a non-bahai and a mad man. I see often from people like
>then
>a snobbish type of I am better than you and I will not deal with those
below
>me type of attitude. They give the impression that they are real bahais
and
>anybody who is not up to their standards are less bahai are not bahai at
>all.
>Of course as you know I dont agree with the bahai faith, but that doesnt
>mean
>I will not stand up for a fellow human being when he is being oppressed or
>suppressed without right. In this case, a person's religion is irrelevant,
>but his honor and him being human is relevant. I have seen persons or
>groups
>of people try to bring down a person, but I never saw such a well-organized
>campaign of trying to take a person down all because his views on
>censorships
>are too much for them to handle.
>
>
>
>
>
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Monday, March 15, 1999 7:40 AM
Subject: Re: fw MrMahdi Re: Bahai Censorship on AOL
"The Bahai Technique":
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/technique.htm
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
Ken Roberts wrote in message <36EC1374.D82B7DEC@worldnet.att.net>...
>Frederick,
>
>I have only perused this list twice now. I don't normally even view
>newsgroups, let alone participate in them. One thing, though, is
>immediately obvious:
>
>Whenever your name appears in a thread, your name is the ONLY name in
>the thread.
>
>Another thing that comes to mind is that you always claim there's some
>conspiracy someplace. I'm not saying that there isn't, exactly, since I
>have no firsthand knowledge.
>
>Consider this: On most lists I've heard of, being the only person on a
>thread that has many entries is considered spam. Spam is a big problem
>on the internet. Most internet service providers will lock a user out
>who can be proven to have sent spam. It's a perfectly valid complaint,
>like when neighbors complain that a stereo is too loud, or that a party
>is too obnoxious. Spam is like shouting in a library. Everyone knows
>you're there, but nobody will acknowledge your existence until someone
>comes to take you away.
>
>Perhaps you should consider toning your attacks down so that people
>would pay more attention? Talk with another human. It helps you get a
>perspective.
>
>
>FG wrote:
>>
>> Mr. Mahdi,
>>
>> Thanks for saying all this. I appreciate hearing
>> from someone on AOL who's fair and honest about
>> what is taking place there. You fully understand the
>> complexity of the deceit that some Bahais are
>> committing on AOL, while those in charge of the AOL
>> TOS system definitely don't even have a clue....
>>
>> FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
>> https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
>> alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Monday, March 15, 1999 8:07 AM
Subject: Re: Juan Cole and the "Orientalists"
mbkafes@bestweb.net wrote in message <7cc8fe$9vm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>Mr Mahdi--
>
>But why on earth would you want him to post a message where you admit to
>fradulently getting an account on AOL twice and encouraging others to do
so?
>Its fraud and illegal. You could get sued. But if you don't care, that's
>certainly ok with me.
Because he obviously doesn't have anything to hide, unlike
the fanatic Bahais on AOL; because he obviously isn't
about to allow himself to be beaten down by a hoard of
liars; because he obviously recognizes that AOL's TOS
system is rife with abuse and shortcomings, as do half the
people on the Internet....
The significant point in all this is the fact that Bahais
are manipulating AOL and driving people off it for
reasons of conscience....
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Monday, March 15, 1999 8:10 AM
Subject: Re: Juan Cole and the "Orientalists"
I defend the right of Mr. Mahdi and other Muslims to
express their point of view on AOL and elsewhere.
Further, it seems to me, the Bahai writings supposedly
guarantee free speech and conscience to all peoples,
including Muslims. I don't know of a caveat Baha'u'llah
ever made denying such rights to Muslims....
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
Mr Mahdi wrote in message <19990313143540.07250.00000152@ng67.aol.com>...
>Religion and obeying God are not the same, and dont cofuse the two. Islam
is
>about obeying God the way God want us to obey Him, not the way religion
wants
>us to obey Him.
>
>>Therefore, Baha'is do not 'convert' people from one religion to another.
>>Baha'is believe in and love the prophet Muhammad. From the Baha'i
viewpoint,
>>Muhammad is Jusus (Muhammad says that in the Koran) and Baha'u'llah is
>>Muhammad and Allah is Allah. Baha'is obey God as best they can, and
Muslims
>>do the same.
>
>I am sick and tired of the filthy lies coming from bahais about islam.
>Muhammad (saaw) never said he was Jesus, and nor does the Quran. Show me a
>verse where it says that. Islam is is based on Quran and sunnah, and Islam
>doesnt mean any religion that claims to "submit to God." "Buniya Islam
'ala
>khams" means Islam is built on five pillars, and the bahai faith dont have
>these five pillars. The devil bahaullah is not Muhammad, Muhammad (saaw)
will
>always be Muhammad ibn 'Abdullah. Bahaullah wasnt that. Muhamamd was sent
>with the Quran to all of mankind, while bahaullah try to undermine the
Quran.
>
>>With all that said, God made a covenant with humanity. He kept His
agreement,
>>and has given us Baha'u'llah, so that we might build the 'Kingdom of God
on
>>earth as it is in heaven'.
>
>God never breaks His promise like the Quran says. Read 3:85, 48:28, 5:3,
>3:110, and many other verses. Then come back to me with a response.
>
>>God renewed His Faith by sending Baha'u'llah, He did not 'abrogate' his
own
>>Faith. He changed certain social laws (as did Muhammad), due to changing
>>social conditions. He requires Baha'is to love the authors of all
religions,
>>for they are one, and God is one, and religion is one.
>
>Allah said that Islam is perfect, completed, and chosen. Perfection and
>Completion need no revision. Islam agrees with human natures, and human
nature
>hasnt changed since Adam and Eve. Allah changed laws, Muhammad didnt.
>Muhamamd was obeying Allah not Allah was obeying Muhammad (saaw).
>
>>Muhammad changed the Qiblih, and Baha'u'llah changed it also.
>>
>>Muhammad changed the laws on prayer and fasting. Baha'u'llah changed the
laws
>>also.
>
>Muhammad didnt change the Qiblah (not "Qiblih) nor did he change the prayer
and
>fasting, Allah did. Read 9:36 about the months. Muhammad said in his
"khutba
>ul-Wida' " that there will no new religion after me, nor will there be a
new
>prophet or messenger. This is in total contradiction to the bahai belief.
----------
From: Barthaman@aol.com[SMTP:Barthaman@aol.com]
Sent: Monday, March 15, 1999 11:31 AM
To: FG@hotmail.com
Cc: Barthaman@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: Annonymous AOL member on Bahai Forums (REVISED: Bahai
Censorship on AOL)
<<Message: Re: Fwd: Annonymous AOL member on Ba...>>
Nah, Fred. I'd rather you didn't. I'd like this particular thread to end,
because it's unnecessary. There are positive alternatives that you need to
explore now to achieve your goals. This one just takes us in circles.
Trust yourself. You can do better. Take care.
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 1999 8:00 AM
Subject: Re: fw MrMahdi Re: Bahai Censorship on AOL
"The Bahai Technique":
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/technique.htm
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
Ken Roberts wrote in message <36ED9DEC.934280AF@worldnet.att.net>...
>FG wrote:
>>
>> "The Bahai Technique":
>> https://members.tripod.com/~FG/technique.htm
>>
>> FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
>> https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
>> alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
>
>So, all you can do is post urls to pre-canned propaganda?
>
>I'm sorry I bothered to post a message to you. I can assure you it
>won't
>happen again.
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 1999 8:15 AM
Subject: Re: Love bombing, i.e., Bahai
Somehow I had missed this message when it
was first posted. I believe it is quite perceptive
of some of the tactics that are used in the Bahai
Faith, especially with new adherents who are
regularly flattered for being so spiritual as to perceive
and accept the Bahai truth....
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
Timothy F. Mulligan wrote in message <36D831DB.C4F8C463@central.uh.edu>...
> I would like to caution non-Baha'is about a
>conversion tactic employed in these newsgroups.
>It is called "love bombing," and it is a common
>cult recruitment ploy.
>
> Baha'i Robert Little is especially given to
>"love bombing." He commonly "bombs" inquirers
>with emotion. For instance, he once cited a
>woman's warm, grandmotherly hugs as a reason to
>believe in Baha'ism. Yesterday, he oozed about
>"laughter" and "joy."
>
> I do not believe that Bahaism meets all the
>criteria for a cult, although it does meet several
>of them. DO NOT underestimate your susceptibility
>to cult tactics like love bombing and the
>witholding by adherents of "difficult" facts about
>their religion.
>
> Mr. Little and other Baha'is here are as much
>victims as they are victimizers. It is a sad
>thing when a human life is spent trying to entice
>others to share a delusion.
>
> You should base your beliefs on solid evidence
>and sound reasoning. Accept no substitutes.
>
>Tim Mulligan
>tmulligan@central.uh.edu
>
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 1999 7:55 AM
Subject: Re: 'Here stand I..'
McKenny Michael wrote in message <7cmbsv$kmc@freenet-news.carleton.ca>...
The intent of Baha'u'llah was to
>provide an all-inclusive, universal framework. By abandoning the essential
>principles of the Baha'i Faith and underlining only the principle of
>obedience, the Universal House of Justice has transformed what was meant
>to be a world religion into a fundamentalist cult.
I believe these observations are true. Many non-Bahais need
to understand that ultimately it is the Universal House of Justice
that supports and encourages the fanaticism that some Bahais
continue to demonstrate in forum after forum on the Internet,
while negating and undermining the very words of Baha'u'llah
Himself....
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, March 18, 1999 7:30 AM
Subject: Re: Qur'anic use of rijal = women as well
McKenny Michael wrote in message <7co7rg$d3h@freenet-news.carleton.ca>...
>
In
>my opinion it is quite regretable that many people today, both Baha'is and
>those in many other religions, feel it necessary to exclude views and
>individuals, even considering such as inimical, which differ from their
>own.
The reality is that the gentle universalism of its Founders
has simply been lost as it has hardened into a fanatical
institutionalism....
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, March 18, 1999 7:37 AM
Subject: Re: xxx and the "Orientalists"
Still nursing your grudge?
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/technique.htm
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
Milissa Boyer Kafes wrote in message <7cpcm4$9rs$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>Frederick--
>
>You write:
>>the Bahai writings supposedly
>> guarantee free speech and conscience to all peoples,
>> including Muslims. I don't know of a caveat Baha'u'llah
>> ever made denying such rights to Muslims....
>
>
>This is, of course, correct.
>
>It is also true that Baha'u'llah enjoined Baha'is to defend their religion.
>Where is your post refuting Mr Mahd'i's calling Baha'u'llah a devil? Why do
>you hold other's rights to free speech higher than your own duty to defend
>Baha'u'llah?
>
>I think you will find your posts not only read, but much more persuasive if
>people could see *you* using *your* freedom of speech to do something other
>than bitch all the time.
>
>Peace
>Milissa Boyer Kafes
>mbkafes@bestweb.net
>
>-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
>https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Friday, March 19, 1999 7:32 AM
Subject: Re: 'Here stand I..'
Michael McKenny wrote in message <7crect$cr6@freenet-news.carleton.ca>...
>
> It is identical within Baha'i. Despite the persecution by the Universal
>House of Justice of those Baha'is who are able to convey convincingly the
>current distance of practise by the Universal House of Justice from the
>essential Baha'i principles, and the quite understandable rejection of the
>Baha'i Faith by those most in tune with these principles, still there is
>spirit in the Baha'i Faith and many spiritual people are drawing energy
>from and walking along this spiritual path.
I couldn't agree more....
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Monday, March 22, 1999 7:06 AM
Subject: Re: 'Here stand I..'
Michael McKenny wrote in message <7d0bua$l93@freenet-news.carleton.ca>...
>Fantastic constructions of "Compilations of compilations" of recorded
>words of the prophet, the master, the guardian, their secretaries, the
>UHJ, out of context and as literally understood, while permitting a
>certain mindset to feel it has comprehended and contained a vast effusion
>of spirituality, while allowing a certain temperament to exercise power
>and impose its personal perception as authoritative, excludes other views,
>drives away other people, divides instead of harmonizing humanity.
The "compilations" mentality is part of the problem
of Bahai fundamentalism. It often has led to a narrow-minded,
literal ignorance lording itself over others and driving people
out of the Bahai Faith by the tens of thousands.
> May those who have the most invested, in ego, in personal power, in
>self-identification as one of a tiny elite at the peak of an exclusive
>club be empowered by the inspired spirit which is the wellspring of the
>religion to take the essential, necessary and principled steps required
>to transform Baha'i from a divisive cult into a beneficial, constructive
>and harmonizing framework for the well-being, prosperity and advancement
>of human civilization.
It's concomitant is a "tiny elite" that has clawed its way
to the "top."
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Monday, March 22, 1999 7:27 AM
Subject: Re: The Meekness of God
Smaneck wrote in message <19990321202115.08406.00000457@ng-ch1.aol.com>...
>
>Dear friends,
>
>The problem which necessitated my withdrawal from this forum, I am happy to
>report has been fully and satisfactorily resolved. Now begins the more
>difficult task of finding ways to insure that this sort of thing does not
>happen in the future. Notwithstanding the resolution of this problem, I
have
>decided that my energies can best be devoted elsewhere than on this forum,
so I
>will be spending most of my time on managing the Baha'i Studies list
instead.
You mean your participation in the midwest inquisition
is now complete? How many lashes did you apply?
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 1999 7:44 AM
Subject: Re: The Meekness of God
Smaneck wrote in message <19990322075853.01127.00000001@ng-fi1.aol.com>...
FG wrote:
>>You mean your participation in the midwest inquisition
>>is now complete? How many lashes did you apply?
>>
>
>No one would believe that but you Fred.
Ms. Maneck's quip does not respond to the fact that
Juan Cole and she herself acknowledged approximately
a month ago that a new Bahai inquisition in the midwest had
begun. Perhaps she would like to share with people on
Usenet the verdict....
I can only take her earlier remark regarding her being more
"effective" on the bahai-studies mailing list to refer to her
ability to censor and manipulate the discussion there as
she and Mark Foster have done on AOL, and he in his
previous position as the "moderator" of bahai-studies.
Incidentally, evidence of Foster's censoring me on
bahai-studies may be found in my archives on my website
by searching for his name in files roughly a year to a
year and a half ago.
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/archive.htm
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 1999 7:29 AM
Subject: Re: The Meekness of God
Smaneck wrote in message <19990323083504.10126.00000018@ng-fi1.aol.com>...
FG wrote:
>>Ms. Maneck's quip does not respond to the fact that
>>Juan Cole and she herself acknowledged approximately
>>a month ago that a new Bahai inquisition in the midwest had
>>begun. Perhaps she would like to share with people on
>>Usenet the verdict....
>
>Innocent.
Quite laughable, really....
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 1999 7:35 AM
Subject: Re: The Meekness of God
Smaneck wrote in message <19990323085855.10138.00000022@ng-fi1.aol.com>...
FG wrote:
>>Perhaps she would like to share with people on
>>>Usenet the verdict....
>>
Maneck wrote:
>>Innocent.
>
And then Maneck added:
> The Universal House of Justice has made in clear that the Instituitons
are
>not to be concerned with policing the thoughts of the believers. But there
will
>always be individual members of the Institutions who just don't get it.
These
>matters can and do get corrected when one works *with* the Institutions.
How can you even write some a false and deceptive
statement? The UHJ has done nothing for the past
decade but tyrannize and terrorize the consciences
of many, many Bahais, driving literally TENS of
THOUSANDS out of the religion. Their tactics have been
amply demonstrated and revealed on the Internet by their
sycophants.
As far as I'm concerned, you're one of them....
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, March 25, 1999 8:09 AM
Subject: Re: The Meekness of God
FG wrote in message <7dai8l$vbe@news1.newsguy.com>...
>Smaneck wrote in message <19990323083504.10126.00000018@ng-fi1.aol.com>...
>
>FG wrote:
>>>Ms. Maneck's quip does not respond to the fact that
>>>Juan Cole and she herself acknowledged approximately
>>>a month ago that a new Bahai inquisition in the midwest had
>>>begun. Perhaps she would like to share with people on
>>>Usenet the verdict....
>>
>>Innocent.
>
>Quite laughable, really....
"These are effectual and sufficient proofs that the
conscience of man is sacred and to be respected;
and that liberty thereof produces widening of ideas,
amendment of morals, improvement of conduct,
disclosure of the secrets of the contingent world.
Moreover, if interrogation of conscience, which is one
of the private possessions of the heart and the soul, take
place in this world, what further recompense remains for
man in the court of divine justice at the day of general
resurrection? Convictions and ideas are within the scope
of the comprehension of the King of kings, not of kings;
and soul and conscience are between the fingers of control
of the Lord of hearts, not of [His] servants."
Abdul-Baha, A Traveler's Narrative, 91.
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, March 25, 1999 11:53 AM
Subject: Majnun page added to my website
I've added a page on the Majnun incident during
1996 for those interested. It may very well be the earliest
documented attack by Bahais on the Internet on free
speech and conscience.
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: billk@erols.com[SMTP:billk@erols.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 1999 4:24 PM
To: FG@hotmail.com
Subject: hello from a trb reader
Fredrick,
I have read your reposts today. I see you have requoted Juan Cole; I
guess because it is a public e-mail, that is okay to do?
I thought your letter to the UHJ was a move in the right direction.
While I do not support extremes of liberty (as Baha'u'allah has
written), I am distressed at the closing down of dialog, Talisman 1 -
and I think you should get an answer to your letter(s).
I do not equate the killing of an Iranian Bahai to be equal to the
supressing of certain literature -- killing is worse. I do think there
is an overboard attempt to get writing campaigns at every killing.
Wasn't it Shoghi Effendi who prohibited Bahai's from leaving Iran? And
now because of Fundamentalistic Muslims - they are being killed.
The effort a few months ago to actually go to school officials in local
communities to protest the closing of a Bahai college -- that was way
overboard -- and in that instance I could agree that it would be
hypocritical to ban publications and yet protest the closing of a
college.
Well I originally wrote not to critique your article but to ask you a
few questions...
Are you still a Bahai? With some Bahais resigning or being forced out,
I wasn't sure what your status was.
Was there ever pressure put on you to resign?
In the unlikely case anything I write here is of interest in stimulating
other conversation and because I am not sure of net etiquette, here is
the following request -- Do not put this or any part of this on your web
site, trb, or any other internet or other place. You may however exerpt
parts from it without naming me, however I would prefer if you just take
these ideas as your own.
(I am a Bahai from NJ)
Bill K
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 01, 1999 7:34 AM
Subject: fw a Bahai re Bahai Censorship
FYI
Notice the acknowledgment by this Bahai of "some
Bahais being forced out."
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/bahai.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai or Newsgroups
-----Original Message-----
From: [name & address deleted]
To: FG@hotmail.com <FG@hotmail.com>
Date: Tuesday, March 30, 1999 7:20 AM
Subject: hello from a trb reader
>Fredrick,
>
>I have read your reposts today. I see you have requoted Juan Cole; I
>guess because it is a public e-mail, that is okay to do?
>
>I thought your letter to the UHJ was a move in the right direction.
>While I do not support extremes of liberty (as Baha'u'allah has
>written), I am distressed at the closing down of dialog, Talisman 1 -
>and I think you should get an answer to your letter(s).
>
>I do not equate the killing of an Iranian Bahai to be equal to the
>supressing of certain literature -- killing is worse. I do think there
>is an overboard attempt to get writing campaigns at every killing.
>Wasn't it Shoghi Effendi who prohibited Bahai's from leaving Iran? And
>now because of Fundamentalistic Muslims - they are being killed.
>
>The effort a few months ago to actually go to school officials in local
>communities to protest the closing of a Bahai college -- that was way
>overboard -- and in that instance I could agree that it would be
>hypocritical to ban publications and yet protest the closing of a
>college.
>
>Well I originally wrote not to critique your article but to ask you a
>few questions...
>
>Are you still a Bahai? With some Bahais resigning or being forced out,
>I wasn't sure what your status was.
>
>Was there ever pressure put on you to resign?
>
. . .
>(I am a Bahai from [location delelted])
>
>[name deleted]
>
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 01, 1999 7:38 AM
Subject: Re: 'Here stand I..'
The reality of the situation is that both these
Bahais have repeatedly attacked and attempted or
been successful at censoring other Bahais and
non-Bahais in several different forums.
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/bahai.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai or Newsgroups
RBCF Mark wrote in message <19990329153653.23482.00002634@ng-ch1.aol.com>...
>Rick Schaut wrote:
>>Given that the institutions are
>>the ones calling for, and approving,
>>the compilations with which Mr.
>>Jamir is finding fault, this does
>>constitute an attack on those
>>institutions.
>
>Rick,
>
>Please don't take this message as anything other than the concern of a
Baha'i
>brother.
>
>I really don't see how any of us, as individuals, have the right to say
whether
>someone is attacking the institutions. Have you read many of Vinson's
postings?
>He is a polite and thoughtful believer with a deep understanding of the
>teachings.
>
>You seem, to me, to be arguing for something like verbal inerrancy, or
>propositional infallibility, which is not something that "the institutions"
you
>refer to (including the House of Justice) have, to my knowledge, ever
claimed
>for themselves.
>
>If I said, ten years ago, that I think it is unfortunate that the
Kitab-i-Iqan
>isn't numbered by paragraphs, would that be an attack on the institutions?
As
>you may know, future editions of that book will be numbered in this way.
>
>If I said that I think it is sad that more Writings of the Bab aren't
>published, would that be an attack on the institutions?
>
>My point, again, is that it only the institutions themselves which have the
>right to make this sort of determination. IMO, our responsibility, as
>individuals, is to focus on our own flaws while, at the same time, holding
a
>sin-covering eye to those of others.
>
>Mark A. Foster
>owner@sociologist.com
>RBCF Mark (on AOL only)
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 01, 1999 8:54 AM
Subject: Re: fw a Bahai re Bahai Censorship
It occurs to me I shouldn't excise this sentence
in my attempt to protect this person from
recrimination by our fellow Bahais:
"You may however excerpt
parts from it without naming me. . . ."
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/bahai.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai or Newsgroups
FG wrote in message <7dvlhs$6jc@news1.newsguy.com>...
>FYI
>
>Notice the acknowledgment by this Bahai of "some
>Bahais being forced out."
>
>FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
>https://members.tripod.com/~FG/bahai.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
>alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai or Newsgroups
>
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: [name & address deleted]
>To: FG@hotmail.com <FG@hotmail.com>
>Date: Tuesday, March 30, 1999 7:20 AM
>Subject: hello from a trb reader
>
>
>>Fredrick,
>>
>>I have read your reposts today. I see you have requoted Juan Cole; I
>>guess because it is a public e-mail, that is okay to do?
>>
>>I thought your letter to the UHJ was a move in the right direction.
>>While I do not support extremes of liberty (as Baha'u'allah has
>>written), I am distressed at the closing down of dialog, Talisman 1 -
>>and I think you should get an answer to your letter(s).
>>
>>I do not equate the killing of an Iranian Bahai to be equal to the
>>supressing of certain literature -- killing is worse. I do think there
>>is an overboard attempt to get writing campaigns at every killing.
>>Wasn't it Shoghi Effendi who prohibited Bahai's from leaving Iran? And
>>now because of Fundamentalistic Muslims - they are being killed.
>>
>>The effort a few months ago to actually go to school officials in local
>>communities to protest the closing of a Bahai college -- that was way
>>overboard -- and in that instance I could agree that it would be
>>hypocritical to ban publications and yet protest the closing of a
>>college.
>>
>>Well I originally wrote not to critique your article but to ask you a
>>few questions...
>>
>>Are you still a Bahai? With some Bahais resigning or being forced out,
>>I wasn't sure what your status was.
>>
>>Was there ever pressure put on you to resign?
>>
>. . .
>
>>(I am a Bahai from [location delelted])
>>
>>[name deleted]
>>
>
>
>
>
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Friday, April 02, 1999 9:51 AM
Subject: Re: Has Baha'u'llah's Blueprint changed
starjo8853@my-dejanews.com wrote in message
<7ds8mo$u5j$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>We know that prophecy is subject to change as all things are subject to
change
>and it seems as we examine the Baha'i Faith as it exists today that the
>Blueprint has altered......
Alas, you seem to be right.... The Bahai Faith appears to be
in the grips of a narrow-minded fanaticism that's thoroughly
intolerant of the liberty and freedom of conscience its Founders
lauded and respected. Like most reactionary coups, this one
too seems merely bent on retrenchment and denial....
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/bahai.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai or Newsgroups
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 1999 11:26 AM
Subject: Re: Survey Results: A Nosecount
"The Bahai Technique":
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/technique.htm
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
ktookey@mail.coin.missouri.edu wrote in message
<7eas90$2g9$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>Earlier, I posted a survey in hopes of getting a nosecount of readership in
>this forum. Here are the results, for what it is worth.
>
>Only 8 people responded to the survey. Of the eight, two classified
>themselves as regular Baha'is, three as Baha'is with unusual views, two as
>disaffected Baha'is, and one as a guest. Considering the number of posters
>exceeded 8 during the time period, I think these results say more about
>people's reluctance to participate in a survey than about readership.
>
>As a followup, I looked at posters for about one week. I counted 17
posters,
>many repeat posters. Of the 17, I inferred 6 were posting in favor of a
>standard Baha'i approach, one posted in favor of an unusual interpretation
of
>the Baha'i Faith, one in support of an administration other than the Haifa
>UHJ, two sounded like disaffected former Baha'is, one sounded like a guest,
>and one was definitely a critic. Five of the posters I was reluctant to
even
>infer a classification. I note in passing that most of the posts in favor
of
>a standard Baha'i approach were responses to an earlier post.
>
>Obviously there are no statistically significant results here. It seems to
me
>the majority of traffic is attacks on, disagreements with, and defenses of
>some standard Baha'i position. (This is no surprise on the Internet.) I
>initiated the survey upon noticing, while lurking, a distressing (to me)
lack
>of discussion about as opposed to attacks, disgreements, defenses. You may,
>of course, draw your own inferences at any time. Thanks for listening.
>
>------------------------the original survey------------------
>Out of my own curiosity, I would like to do a nose count of readers of this
>group.
>Please self-classify yourself by answering the following questions:
>(If I have accidently used a word offensive to you, please substitute your
own
>word)
>
>Do you post to this newsgroup regularly, occasionally, or not at all?
>Regular Occasional Quiet
>
>What is your relationship to the Baha'i Faith? (You may give your own
answer,
>but forgive me for suggesting a classification) Regular Baha'is with
standard
>views(usual Baha'i) Regular Baha'is with irregular views(unusual Baha'i)
>member of a competing administration(alternate Baha'i) Former member of the
>Baha'i Faith, involuntary termination (expelled Baha'i) Former member of
the
>Baha'i Faith, voluntary termination (disaffected Baha'i) Never enrolled in
>the Baha'i Faith, please pick a word you like: (seeker,friend,guest,critic)
>Usual, Unusual, Alternate, Expelled, Disaffected, Seeker, Friend, Guest,
>Critic
>
>I promise not to use your email address for anything other than clarifying
>the answer you send. (I accept anonymous answers, but please only one
>response per newsgroup reader) I will post this unscientific nose count
>(totals only) when responses stop coming, as a matter (I hope) of common
>interest. I am NOT asking for arguments in favor of your position, so
please
>keep your response short.
>
>
>Tookey
>
>-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
>https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 1999 3:00 PM
Subject: AOL Censorship page added to my website
For those interested I've added a 1/2 megabyte file
of messages relating specifically to Bahai censorship
on AOL. It may be found at
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/AOL.htm
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/bahai.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai or Newsgroups
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 1999 3:11 PM
Subject: AOL Bahai Censorship page added to my website
Make that AOL Bahai censorship....
FG wrote in message <7eg9us$na3$1@remarQ.com>...
>For those interested I've added a 1/2 megabyte file
>of messages relating specifically to Bahai censorship
>on AOL. It may be found at
>
>https://members.tripod.com/~FG/AOL.htm
>
>FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
>https://members.tripod.com/~FG/bahai.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
>alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai or Newsgroups
>
>
>
>
>
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, April 11, 1999 9:17 AM
Subject: Re: Maneck's Technique
planetjeff@my-dejanews.com wrote in message
<7egkdf$ri9$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>In article <uIZbbFRg#GA.239@upnetnews05>,
> "FG" <FG@email.msn.com> wrote:
>> Kent,
>>
>> I must say that that's the way I see it too.... The real
>> worry, though, to me is that the UHJ itself seems to
>> support the fanatics and fundamentalists and have
>> themselves perverted the Writings of Baha'u'llah
>> incontestably supporting free speech and conscience.
>>
>[clip]
>
>Huh?!?! In what way exactly do you believe the Universal House of Justice
>has "perverted" the Writings of Baha'u'llah? This sounds like an extreme
>stretch of the imagination and an intentional misuse of a word in an
>incendiary manner.
Not in the least extreme nor incendiary.... The UHJ has
betrayed the Teachings of Baha'u'llah on freedom of
speech and individual liberty. It's consistently support
the fundamentalists and fanatics on soc.religion.bahai,
the BCCA mailing lists, AOL, and elsewhere in cyberspace.
Offline, there's an irrefutable record of Bahai abuse of
the consciences of many, many Bahais and non-Bahais.
The responsibility for these many acts of suppression and
censorship lies in the hands of the members of the UHJ.
You might read Juan Cole's Modernity & the Millennium,
available from Columbia University Press, for a discussion
of Baha'u'llah and Abud'l-Baha's commitment to values
that the UHJ has definitely abandoned and undermined.
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/bahai.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai or Newsgroups
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Monday, April 12, 1999 6:35 AM
Subject: Re: technique (Glaysher) - > REPOST
"The Bahai Technique":
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/technique.htm
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/bahai.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
kohli@mail.ameritel.net wrote in message
<7ere32$f5l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>In article <923836925.376.102@news.remarQ.com>,
> "FG" <FG@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>(familiar compilation snipped)
>
>Dear Fred,
>
>I share your concern about freedom of expression. I find the internet a
>wonderful place for folks to express themselves. I see spam as one of the
>biggest obstacles to that expression. When one individual presumes that
their
>message is really what people want, despite lack of indication that the
>message is wanted, that message gets the same priority as a message that
>others really do want. With a sea of messages, spam dilutes the messages of
>others, messages that are wanted, messages that are other people's
>expressions.
>
>It is unfortunate that you have been banned from some segment(s) of the
>internet. Please consider that some may see you as spamming and what you
may
>see as censorship, others see as protection of their freedom of expression
>from someone who has their own canned means of diluting others expressions.
>
>v/r
>Pat
>
>-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
>https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Monday, April 12, 1999 4:59 PM
Subject: Re: Susan Maneck: The anti-muslim bigot
Mr Mahdi wrote in message <19990412142029.02130.00002193@ng-fr1.aol.com>...
>Susan has increased her racist attacks on Islam in the AOL bahai messages
>boards. I want people who are members AOL to got to the bahai message
boards
>and see for yourself. I am just amazed on how Susan has a PhD, her
rebuttals
>and her apologetic nature in intellectual discussion just makes you wonder
did
>she pay someone to approve her dissertation. She with the help of other
bahai
>fundies launched a campaign against Fred Glaysher as as you all know he was
>kicked off AOL. Susan can with impunity attack Islam and lie about
Muhammad
>(saaw) and the Quran and Hadith. But if a person is to respond to her
lies, he
>or she might get their post yanked off and sent to TOS. People need to the
>that Susan Maneck has a history of bigotry esp. towards Islam and Muslims.
>Mahdi
Can't say I'm surprised.... She has on many occasions
shown herself to be quite capable of the most unscrupulous
deceit and intrigue and on a number of forums. I doubt if
anyone at AOL has enough sophistication to see through
what she's really doing and how the AOL forums are
manipulated by her and Mark Foster.
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/bahai.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai or Newsgroups
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Monday, April 12, 1999 5:02 PM
Subject: Re: Susan Maneck
Ken2040 wrote in message <19990412153508.06955.00001764@ng136.aol.com>...
>Mahdi,
> Susan has said some wonderful things about Islam on the Message Boards. I
>don't think it is fair or accurate to name-call like this. Ken
Name call? I find it amusing that you defend her
on such a count. Vintage Bahai Technique....
If you're truly concerned about name calling, you might wish to
reprimand her for her references to my opinions as "slander"
and "garbage."
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/Maneck1.htm
Or do you find those references palatable?
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/bahai.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai or Newsgroups
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Monday, April 12, 1999 5:09 PM
Subject: Re: Susan Maneck: The anti-muslim bigot
R. G. Boomers wrote in message ...
>
>Dr. Maneck has been one of the most interesting, helpful,
>and friendly posters in the Bahai newsgroups. Not many are
>going to listen to your accusations without you providing
>examples of her alleged bigotry and lies.
>
>George
She's a deceiful liar who in conjuction with Mark Foster
is manipulating and suppressing information on AOL.
I suggest you and others honestly seeking to decide for
themselves read:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/AOL.htm
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/Maneck1.htm
https://209.185.176.10/~FG/AOLcensorship.txt
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/bahai.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai or Newsgroups
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 1999 6:41 AM
Subject: Re: Susan Maneck: The anti-muslim bigot
For an example of the way Wendy and other
Bahais, including Maneck, operate on AOL
see
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/AOL.htm
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/bahai.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai or Newsgroups
Mr Mahdi wrote in message <19990412200211.27487.00002043@ng16.aol.com>...
>>Dr. Maneck has been one of the most interesting, helpful,
>>and friendly posters in the Bahai newsgroups. Not many are
>>going to listen to your accusations without you providing
>>examples of her alleged bigotry and lies.
>
>LOL, only if you knew. I wish I can post all the things Susan said about
me,
>Islam, Fred, and many other people. After Fred was unjustly kicked off
AOL,
>Susan with boldness increased her misreprensatations by misquoting me,
Islamic
>texts, and other things and people in order to show me as a liar or one
that
>is ignorant, etc. I wish Fred was back on AOL or anybody else that can
post
>all of the posts in the AOL bahai message boards where Susan is launching a
>campaign against me. She and few other bahais esp. Wendy has tried to
advocate
>all the people who post on the message boards to not to respond to me, they
are
>calling for a boycott. They have went to main folder in the bahai message
>boards on AOL writing posts begging people to ignore me. This is pure
>censorship.
>Mahdi
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 1999 6:47 AM
Subject: Re: Susan Maneck: The anti-muslim bigot
Mr Mahdi wrote in message <19990412233126.27518.00002128@ng25.aol.com>...
>> I first met Mahdi in a chat room where he began
>>to swear at me in Persian crying, "Death to Baha'is."
>
>You are misquoting me like you always do, it is becasue you are not a fair
>minded or honest individual. You lack intellectual sincerity thats why you
>wont last a second in a debate with intlellectuals. Regarding the chat
room
>incident, I was asked about Islam's punishment for bahais who left Islam
for
>the bahai faith. I said that in Islam the punishment for apostasy is
death.
>Susan of course didnt tell you guys that, she rather twist the truth and
defame
>my character. Susan is proof that you dont have to be an intellectual to
get a
>PhD, you just got to past tests and do a lot of homework and research.
>
>>Incidently, for those of you who have been hanging out on arb and trb for
>>want
>>of anything better to do, SRB appears to be up and running again.
>
>Susan, you are even try to make people ignore me right here. You will see
me
>in SRB as well as here if that is requires me to do so. What you said just
now
>is little in comparision to what you have said in AOL, you do things with
>impunity, knowing that your posts wont be yanked.
It is true that she and the supposed "Forum Leader"
Mark Foster have learned how to manipulated and
cozen AOL personnel to their advantage and thereby
"yank" with impunity other people's messages now
on AOL.... It is a form of censorship and suppression.
You and the other cowards
>use the Internet to attack people you dont even know, you will never to
that to
>me in real life. You probably shake in your boots when you realize who you
>have been talking trash to all along. If you want to see me in person, I
be at
>the mosque at 1702 Hays St, San Antonio, TX 78202. I can assure you will
treat
>me with respect. You launch biased campaign agaist Fred Glaysher and
>unfortunately you guys were successful, but you guys have kicked me off
once
>before, but like a street soldier I came back harder and stronger than
ever.
>I hope people have the chance to have AOL and see what Susan and other
bahai
>fundamentalists have done on the message boards, esp. recently.
>Mahdi
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/AOL.htm
https://209.185.176.10/~FG/AOLcensorship.txt
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/Maneck1.htm
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/bahai.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai or Newsgroups
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 1999 6:55 AM
Subject: Re: Susan Maneck: The anti-muslim bigot
Smaneck wrote in message <19990412211918.05321.00000213@ng-ch1.aol.com>...
>
>Incidently, for those of you who have been hanging out on arb and trb for
want
>of anything better to do, SRB appears to be up and running again.
Where "scholars" like Maneck who refer to other
Bahais' ideas as "garbage" and "litter" are given
refuge and adjulation....
Her comment here above shows once again that
Bahais are very much attempting to control available
information to the unsuspecting....
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/bahai.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai or Newsgroups
From: Smaneck <smaneck@aol.com>
Subject: Re: AOL censorship via TOS allegations
Date: Thursday, February 18, 1999 2:17 PM
Fred writes:
>I highly doubt the veracity of the
>claim that he was so sick.
What do you need Fred, a doctors excuse?
>Regardless, I repeatedly emailed
>directly to him and requested that he resign, a request he's
>always ignored.
The nerve of Mark! When Fred issues a demand like that Mark should comply
immediately.
>Ms. Maneck herself referred to my opinions on AOL a number
>of times as "garbage."
And nobody else would *ever* charaterize the litter you spam these lists
with
in that manner.
Susan Stiles Maneck
History, Stetson University
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 1999 6:59 AM
Subject: Re: Susan Maneck: The anti-muslim bigot
"The Bahai Technique":
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/technique.htm
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/bahai.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
kohli@mail.ameritel.net wrote in message
<7euj71$51i$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>Mr Mahdi wrote:
>>
>> Susan has increased her racist attacks on Islam in the AOL bahai messages
>> boards.
>
>I doubt that Islam can be considered an ethnicity or a race. Perhaps we
>can play a game w/ racism. It is such a serious accusation, it
>shouldn't be made lightly and we can have a game so that racism can have
>an aspect of levity - see below.
>
>> I want people who are members AOL to got to the bahai message boards
>> and see for yourself. I am just amazed on how Susan has a PhD, her
>rebuttals
>> and her apologetic nature in intellectual discussion just makes you
>wonder did
>> she pay someone to approve her dissertation. She with the help of other
>bahai
>> fundies launched a campaign against Fred Glaysher as as you all know he
>was
>> kicked off AOL.
>
>Fred needed the help of no Baha'is other than himself in getting kicked
>off of AOL. His spamming approach to the internet is well known here.
>Despite reasoned attempts to explain the mistaken tactic to him, he
>seems to persist.
>
>> Susan can with impunity attack Islam and lie about Muhammad
>> (saaw) and the Quran and Hadith.
>
>Please cite your examples. I still remember the pste job you did from
>Imran and the similar attempt at character assasination on Dr. Cole, at
>your keyboard.
>
>> But if a person is to respond to her lies, he
>> or she might get their post yanked off and sent to TOS.
>
>Lies have ways of revealing themselves for what they are.
>
>> People need to the
>> that Susan Maneck has a history of bigotry esp. towards Islam and
>Muslims.
>
>Perhaps, if you know your racists you can identify who made the remarks
>below on alt.religion.bahai and/or talk.religion.baha1?
>
>For five points, who, speaking of Iranian Baha'is, wrote:
>"Part of their monoply is the absolute control they have to interpret
>out of existence the more liberal and democratic beliefs of Baha'u'llah
>and Abdul-Baha."?
>
>For five points, who wrote:
>"... It's so revealing of the mentality many Iranian Bahais seek to
>conceal behind their sneers of contempt.'?
>
>For ten points, about Iranians in general, not just Baha'is, who wrote:
>"Here we have it again.... This cultural racism of Iranians manifests
>itself in many ways in everyday Bahai "community" life...."?
>
>For ten points, who, when told that ethnic slurs have no place in the
>Baha'i community, wrote:
>"False. Nothing could be more common."?
>
>Since some reseach is allowed in this game, you might be able to get
>help at https://www.dejanews.com/; that is a clue.
>
>Mr. Mahdi, both Baha'u'llah and 'Abdu'l Baha discouraged us from being
>racists. As you may see, not all Baha'is take that guidance to heart.
>
>Blessings!
>- Pat
>
>-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
>https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 1999 7:27 AM
Subject: Re: Susan Maneck: The anti-muslim bigot
Juan Cole, February 13, 1999:
"It is a very, very, very weird religion. And if anyone is reading
Susan Maneck's absolutely bone-chilling screeds on the
desirability of Heresy Trials and carefulness in Shunning,
they are seeing what it is like at the core of the religion."
"I really am sorry for them and her, since they seem sort of filled with
hate and quite paranoid, yet say they are preaching love, unity and
tolerance. Susan will say, 'may your abdomen be split by lightning
and your guts fall out you filthy heretic whom I wish I could just have
shunned and buried', and then she'll sign herself "warmest" and
slander a university by adding it to her sig line. As if what she is
about has anything at all to do with *universities*!"
FG, February 15, 1999:
"Ms. Maneck's approach appears to me to be always to
shunt the discussion off or back to who said what where when
why how and so on.... The farther back in time the better, since
the person's memory, being human, is bound to be unable to
keep up or to have stocked the evidence needed on his or her
hard drive or find it on dejanews.com. And it then allows her
to claim pretty much anything she wants to while seeming to
have discredited her opponent. Further, she relies on the
tactics of demagoguery knowing they usually prevail and will be
supported by other fundamentalist Bahais. By shrieking
"slander" and referring to others' opinions as "garbage," she is
able to create an emotional atmosphere that essentially negates
whatever the topic or content might be and that allows her to
appear to win what is often a narrowly legalistic point or
interpretation."
"All of this is done, of course, in conjunction with her employing
the more common Bahai techniques of intimidation and
psychological demonization and terrorism."
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/Maneck1.htm
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/technique.htm
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/bahai.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai or Newsgroups
Smaneck wrote in message <19990412211918.05321.00000213@ng-ch1.aol.com>...
>
>>Susan has increased her racist attacks on Islam in the AOL bahai messages
>>boards.
>
>Mr. Mahdi appears to be under the misapprehension that Islam is a race
rather
>than a religion. I believe however that those following my controversy with
>Darrick are well aware of my views on racial issues. As for my views on
Islam
>and Muhammad, I dare say that I have a higher opinion of the Prophet and
his
>religion than does Mr. Mahdi who seems to be under the impression that
Islam
>sanctions violence and hatred. I first met Mahdi in a chat room where he
began
>to swear at me in Persian crying, "Death to Baha'is."
>
>Incidently, for those of you who have been hanging out on arb and trb for
want
>of anything better to do, SRB appears to be up and running again.
>
>Susan Stiles Maneck
>History, Stetson University
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Susan Stiles Maneck
>History, Stetson University
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 1999 7:33 AM
Subject: Re: Susan Maneck: The anti-muslim bigot
Maneck's scholarly, loving-Bahai references
to my views as garbage and "litter" may be
found at
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/Maneck7.htm
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/AOL.htm
https://209.185.176.10/~FG/AOLcensorship.txt
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/Maneck1.htm
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/bahai.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai or Newsgroups
FG wrote in message <924001102.466.101@news.remarQ.com>...
>
>
>"The Bahai Technique":
>https://members.tripod.com/~FG/technique.htm
>
>FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
>https://members.tripod.com/~FG/bahai.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
>alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
>
>
>
>
>kohli@mail.ameritel.net wrote in message
><7euj71$51i$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>>Mr Mahdi wrote:
>>>
>>> Susan has increased her racist attacks on Islam in the AOL bahai
messages
>>> boards.
>>
>>I doubt that Islam can be considered an ethnicity or a race. Perhaps we
>>can play a game w/ racism. It is such a serious accusation, it
>>shouldn't be made lightly and we can have a game so that racism can have
>>an aspect of levity - see below.
>>
>>> I want people who are members AOL to got to the bahai message boards
>>> and see for yourself. I am just amazed on how Susan has a PhD, her
>>rebuttals
>>> and her apologetic nature in intellectual discussion just makes you
>>wonder did
>>> she pay someone to approve her dissertation. She with the help of other
>>bahai
>>> fundies launched a campaign against Fred Glaysher as as you all know he
>>was
>>> kicked off AOL.
>>
>>Fred needed the help of no Baha'is other than himself in getting kicked
>>off of AOL. His spamming approach to the internet is well known here.
>>Despite reasoned attempts to explain the mistaken tactic to him, he
>>seems to persist.
>>
>>> Susan can with impunity attack Islam and lie about Muhammad
>>> (saaw) and the Quran and Hadith.
>>
>>Please cite your examples. I still remember the pste job you did from
>>Imran and the similar attempt at character assasination on Dr. Cole, at
>>your keyboard.
>>
>>> But if a person is to respond to her lies, he
>>> or she might get their post yanked off and sent to TOS.
>>
>>Lies have ways of revealing themselves for what they are.
>>
>>> People need to the
>>> that Susan Maneck has a history of bigotry esp. towards Islam and
>>Muslims.
>>
>>Perhaps, if you know your racists you can identify who made the remarks
>>below on alt.religion.bahai and/or talk.religion.baha1?
>>
>>For five points, who, speaking of Iranian Baha'is, wrote:
>>"Part of their monoply is the absolute control they have to interpret
>>out of existence the more liberal and democratic beliefs of Baha'u'llah
>>and Abdul-Baha."?
>>
>>For five points, who wrote:
>>"... It's so revealing of the mentality many Iranian Bahais seek to
>>conceal behind their sneers of contempt.'?
>>
>>For ten points, about Iranians in general, not just Baha'is, who wrote:
>>"Here we have it again.... This cultural racism of Iranians manifests
>>itself in many ways in everyday Bahai "community" life...."?
>>
>>For ten points, who, when told that ethnic slurs have no place in the
>>Baha'i community, wrote:
>>"False. Nothing could be more common."?
>>
>>Since some reseach is allowed in this game, you might be able to get
>>help at https://www.dejanews.com/; that is a clue.
>>
>>Mr. Mahdi, both Baha'u'llah and 'Abdu'l Baha discouraged us from being
>>racists. As you may see, not all Baha'is take that guidance to heart.
>>
>>Blessings!
>>- Pat
>>
>>-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
>>https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
>
>
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 1999 8:01 AM
Subject: Bahai Troll (Re: technique (Glaysher) - > REPOST)
This poster is obviously a Bahai troll - someone
pretending to be someone he is not.... This may
be confirmed by searching www.dejanews.com
for any other messages on Usenet posted by this
individual - ZERO....
It is evident the Bahai fundamentalists are behind
this technique too....
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/bahai.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai or Newsgroups
numero919@my-dejanews.com wrote in message
<7eugkd$2q6$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>Fred,
>
>In the post which I am responding to, you do nothing but clutter trb. You
do
>not acknowledge Pat. You do not say in what ways you might agree or
disagree
>with her. You just post back 3 some links to your writings and web site.
YOu
>have done this on other occasions.
>
>I agree with Pat (and I think she speaks for others) that you are
>overdoing your repetitive postings. I like many of the Bahai quotations, I
>think they need to heard in "these times", you have some interesting
>perspectives, but perhaps you could condense them to 1 or 2 postings.
>As far as every 2 week postings, if you feel that is your mission, fine
>but keep it to 1 or 2 postings.
>
>By persisiting in the way you are (spam postings and non-postings) you
>undermine the trb Forum which, I believe you aided in setting up.
>
>Also, let's hear more from you, (but new original stuff.)
>
>John
>
>In article <7esi89$95d$1@remarQ.com>,
> "FG" <FG@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> "The Bahai Technique":
>> https://members.tripod.com/~FG/technique.htm
>>
>> FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
>> https://members.tripod.com/~FG/bahai.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
>> alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
>
>**snip
>> >Dear Fred,
>> >
>> >I share your concern about freedom of expression. I find the internet a
>> >wonderful place for folks to express themselves. I see spam as one of
the
>
>**snip
>
>-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
>https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 1999 11:03 AM
To: Mr Mahdi
Subject: Re: Susan Maneck: The anti-muslim bigot
Mr. Mahdi,
I wonder whether you've noticed if alt.religion.bahai
and talk.religion.bahai have yet been added to the
Newsgroup menu on the main Bahai menu?
I had asked Foster to do it in the middle of January
and he continued to drag his feet on it and make
excuses about it. They obviously don't want the
14+ million people on AOL to know about either one.
I'd appreciate it if you could check and let us know
on talk.religion.bahai.
Thanks.
Fred
-----Original Message-----
From: Mr Mahdi <mrmahdi@aol.com>
Newsgroups: talk.religion.bahai
Date: Monday, April 12, 1999 11:31 PM
Subject: Re: Susan Maneck: The anti-muslim bigot
>> I first met Mahdi in a chat room where he began
>>to swear at me in Persian crying, "Death to Baha'is."
>
>You are misquoting me like you always do, it is becasue you are not a fair
>minded or honest individual. You lack intellectual sincerity thats why you
>wont last a second in a debate with intlellectuals. Regarding the chat
room
>incident, I was asked about Islam's punishment for bahais who left Islam
for
>the bahai faith. I said that in Islam the punishment for apostasy is
death.
>Susan of course didnt tell you guys that, she rather twist the truth and
defame
>my character. Susan is proof that you dont have to be an intellectual to
get a
>PhD, you just got to past tests and do a lot of homework and research.
>
>>Incidently, for those of you who have been hanging out on arb and trb for
>>want
>>of anything better to do, SRB appears to be up and running again.
>
>Susan, you are even try to make people ignore me right here. You will see
me
>in SRB as well as here if that is requires me to do so. What you said just
now
>is little in comparision to what you have said in AOL, you do things with
>impunity, knowing that your posts wont be yanked. You and the other
cowards
>use the Internet to attack people you dont even know, you will never to
that to
>me in real life. You probably shake in your boots when you realize who you
>have been talking trash to all along. If you want to see me in person, I
be at
>the mosque at 1702 Hays St, San Antonio, TX 78202. I can assure you will
treat
>me with respect. You launch biased campaign agaist Fred Glaysher and
>unfortunately you guys were successful, but you guys have kicked me off
once
>before, but like a street soldier I came back harder and stronger than
ever.
>I hope people have the chance to have AOL and see what Susan and other
bahai
>fundamentalists have done on the message boards, esp. recently.
>Mahdi
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 1999 5:46 PM
To: Ruletherod
Subject: A favor to ask
Rule,
I wonder whether you've noticed if alt.religion.bahai
and talk.religion.bahai have yet been added to the
Newsgroup menu on the main Bahai menu?
I had asked Foster to do it in the middle of January
and he continued to drag his feet on it and make
excuses about it. They obviously don't want the
14+ million people on AOL to know about either one.
I'd appreciate it if you could check and let me know.
Thanks.
Fred
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 1999 6:58 AM
Subject: Re: FAQ - The TRUTH about FRED
Humor doesn't conceal
"The Bahai Technique":
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/technique.htm
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/bahai.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
Gyr Falcon wrote in message <3715b05b.1198095@news.dave-world.net>...
>Now that trb is a reality, the three creators of the cyberjoke called
>"FRED," Dr. Juanito Coleslaw of Michigan, Francesca Muffin Baker of
>Champaign-Urbana and Ron Hovel of Australia, announced the true nature
>of the project today.
>
>FRED (Fanatical Robot E-Demonstration) is a computer science
>experiment in artificial intelligence, the three explained.
>
>Dr. Juanito Coleslaw, noted Arabist and cunnilinctus, said from his
>Michigan campus, "This whole episode just shows the gullibility of
>fundamentalist Baha'is who are being led like sheep by the ayatollahs
>of the uhj. Do you really think an entity, FRED, stupid enough to get
>thrown off Talisman I, all BCCA lists and even AOL could be a real
>person?"
>
>Dr. Coleslaw noted that in the first two instances the FRED ploy might
>have seemed credible. "But rabid racists, pornographers and pedophiles
>don't get thrown off AOL. That should have been the giveaway," he
>chuckled.
>
>"I can't believe that people took what was basically a random-thought
>generator and spam program seriously," said Francesca Muffin Baker.
>"Do they think a real person would spam hundreds of lists, message
>boards and newsgroups with the same messages over and over? How can
>people be so stupid?
>
>"I take that back. They fell for the Melissa virus too," she added.
>
>"The poetry on the FRED homepage should have given us away," said
>noted Australian misogynist Ron Hovel who never met a woman he didn't
>dislike. "We entered all the poetry of T.S. Eliot, Lord Byron, and Rod
>Mckuen into a poetry-generator and used the scrambled results to
>create the FRED poetry pages. We really had a belly laugh over that
>pretentious drivel."
>
>When the anemic trio emailed the FRED-bot of their plans to reveal its
>identity, FRED parsed the message and wrote back: "It is one of those
>Antinomian antinomies of human nature I'll just have to live with."
>
>Reaction from arb and trb regulars was swift.
>
>"I still bet I'm taller than FRED," huffed humorist and mental midget
>Timothy Mullandgin.
>
>Noted theologian Darrick Everkid of the Church of Latter Day Kooks,
>founder of the CAIN project, remarked, "And I always thought FRED was
>a negro."
----------
From: Ruletherod@aol.com[SMTP:Ruletherod@aol.com]
Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 1999 2:47 PM
To: FG@hotmail.com
Cc: Ruletherod@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: A favor to ask
<<Message: A favor to ask>>
Yes, Fred, I checked and they're all up and listed now.
--Rule
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 15, 1999 6:57 AM
Subject: Re: Hate mail from Fred
This allegation is false. The message this troll
cites below as mine was not sent by me.
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/bahai.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai or Newsgroups
Gyr Falcon wrote in message <3715c0f6.8509420@news.dave-world.net>...
>I received the following:
>
>
>Read Message
> Help
> - Next
> Back to Inbox
> Message - Download
>
>
> From:
> "FG" <FG@hotmail.com> Add to
> Address Book
> To:
> "Gyr Falcon" <gyrfalcon01@yahoo.com>
> Date:
> Tue, 13 Apr 1999 21:30:43 -0500
> Subject:
> Leave me alone
> Reply-to:
> FG@hotmail.com
>
>
>Gyr Falcon, what an idiotic name. I know you are some
>fundamentalist hiding behind that fake name. Leave me the hell
>alone you little worm or I will have you thrown off the Internet. You
>people are disgusting.
>
>
>FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of
>Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~FG/bahai.htm On
>talk.religion.bahai, alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai or
>Newsgroups
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit https://www.msn.com
>
> Message - Download
>
> - Next
> Back to Inbox
>
>Terms of Service
>Copyright © 1994-1999 Yahoo! Inc. All rights reserved.
>
>
>
>
>
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Friday, April 16, 1999 8:55 AM
Subject: Bahai Bullies & the UHJ's Fundamentalism
I'm alarmed at the recent Bahai attempts, by someone
writing under the pseudonym Gyr Falcon and others, at
character assassination, ridicule, and generally portraying
me and others as disturbed individuals. Please notice that
the Bahai who is hiding behind Gyr Falcon has also been
posting false messages under my name yet not a single Bahai
has protested his doing so.
I have never claimed to be perfect. At times I have
apologized to Bahais, Muslims, and other non-Bahais
when I felt, or was convinced, that I was wrong or had
spoken unfairly. I find the constant technique to portray
me as a megalomanic or paranoid quite offensive.
Fair-minded Bahai and non-Bahai observers may
judge for themselves whether my and others' allegations of
censorship are valid by reading the "Assorted Controversial
Documents" on my website at
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/bahai.htm
As further corroboration that I am not the only person
concerned with the intolerance and censorship that has
overtaken the Bahai Faith, I recommend Professor Juan Cole's
new book Modernity & the Millennium: The Genesis of the
Bahai Faith in the Nineteenth-Century Middle East, available
through Columbia University Press or Amazon.com at
https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0231110812/o/qid=924015204/sr=2-1/002
-1823748
-4014252
In his conclusion, which would never have passed the
system of Bahai "review" that the UHJ imposes
on all publications brought out under their control,
Professor Cole quite accurately identifies the distortions
that have been wreaked upon Baha'u'llah's Teachings:
"Some contemporary leaders of the Baha'i Faith have given
answers increasingly similar to those of fundamentalists,
stressing scriptural literalism, patriachy, theocracy,
censorship, intellectual intolerance, and denying key
democratic values. While the values of the nineteenth-
century Baha'i movement, which was far more tolerant,
continue to exist as a minority view, by the late 1990s a
different set of emphases prevailed." (196)
He himself and many others have suffered at the hands
of the fundamentalists who have taken control of the
religion:
"The rise of academic Baha'i scholarship has caused
tension in the community, whose present-day leadership
tends to be fundamentalist and antiliberal in orientation,
and this has led to pressure on a number of prominent
academics to resign or dissociate themselves from the
movement." (201)
These same forces of fundamentalist orthodoxy are
evident on talk.religion.bahai and alt.religion.bahai
for impartial viewers to witness. They will be evident
to all perceptive observers of whatever forum Bahais may
be trying to influence.
As a Bahai for more than 23 years, I myself have always
found especially repulsive the manner in which Bahai
fundamentalists attempt to manipulate the institutions and
leaders of government, the United Nations, and public
opinion, while pretending to values they deride in private
or at Bahai-only meetings.
Ultimately, it is the Bahai Universal House of Justice that
is responsible for the perversion and corruption of such clear
and elevating teachings of Baha'u'llah and Abdul-Baha as
the following:
"These are effectual and sufficient proofs that the
conscience of man is sacred and to be respected; and that
liberty thereof produces widening of ideas, amendment of
morals, improvement of conduct, disclosure of the secrets
of the contingent world."
Abdul-Baha, A Traveler's Narrative, 91.
The UHJ is in the end responsible for inciting Bahai fanatics
and fundamentalists to attack other Bahais and non-Bahais
merely for their views expressed on and off line in free forums
of public discussion.
I recommend all newcomers to these matters read
"The Bahai Technique":
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/technique.htm
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/bahai.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai or Newsgroups
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@email.msn.com]
Sent: Friday, April 16, 1999 9:01 AM
Subject: Bahai Bullies & the UHJ's Fundamentalism
I'm alarmed at the recent Bahai attempts, by someone
writing under the pseudonym Gyr Falcon and others, at
character assassination, ridicule, and generally portraying
me and others as disturbed individuals. Please notice that
the Bahai who is hiding behind Gyr Falcon has also been
posting false messages under my name yet not a single Bahai
has protested his doing so.
I have never claimed to be perfect. At times I have
apologized to Bahais, Muslims, and other non-Bahais
when I felt, or was convinced, that I was wrong or had
spoken unfairly. I find the constant technique to portray
me as a megalomanic or paranoid quite offensive.
Fair-minded Bahai and non-Bahai observers may
judge for themselves whether my and others' allegations of
censorship are valid by reading the "Assorted Controversial
Documents" on my website at
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/bahai.htm
As further corroboration that I am not the only person
concerned with the intolerance and censorship that has
overtaken the Bahai Faith, I recommend Professor Juan Cole's
new book Modernity & the Millennium: The Genesis of the
Bahai Faith in the Nineteenth-Century Middle East, available
through Columbia University Press or Amazon.com at
https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0231110812/o/qid=924015204/sr=2-1/002
-1823748-4014252
In his conclusion, which would never have passed the
system of Bahai "review" that the UHJ imposes
on all publications brought out under their control,
Professor Cole quite accurately identifies the distortions
that have been wreaked upon Baha'u'llah's Teachings:
"Some contemporary leaders of the Baha'i Faith have given
answers increasingly similar to those of fundamentalists,
stressing scriptural literalism, patriachy, theocracy,
censorship, intellectual intolerance, and denying key
democratic values. While the values of the nineteenth-
century Baha'i movement, which was far more tolerant,
continue to exist as a minority view, by the late 1990s a
different set of emphases prevailed." (196)
He himself and many others have suffered at the hands
of the fundamentalists who have taken control of the
religion:
"The rise of academic Baha'i scholarship has caused
tension in the community, whose present-day leadership
tends to be fundamentalist and antiliberal in orientation,
and this has led to pressure on a number of prominent
academics to resign or dissociate themselves from the
movement." (201)
These same forces of fundamentalist orthodoxy are
evident on talk.religion.bahai and alt.religion.bahai
for impartial viewers to witness. They will be evident
to all perceptive observers of whatever forum Bahais may
be trying to influence.
As a Bahai for more than 23 years, I myself have always
found especially repulsive the manner in which Bahai
fundamentalists attempt to manipulate the institutions and
leaders of government, the United Nations, and public
opinion, while pretending to values they deride in private
or at Bahai-only meetings.
Ultimately, it is the Bahai Universal House of Justice that
is responsible for the perversion and corruption of such clear
and elevating teachings of Baha'u'llah and Abdul-Baha as
the following:
"These are effectual and sufficient proofs that the
conscience of man is sacred and to be respected; and that
liberty thereof produces widening of ideas, amendment of
morals, improvement of conduct, disclosure of the secrets
of the contingent world."
Abdul-Baha, A Traveler's Narrative, 91.
The UHJ is in the end responsible for inciting Bahai fanatics
and fundamentalists to attack other Bahais and non-Bahais
merely for their views expressed on and off line in free forums
of public discussion.
I recommend all newcomers to these matters read
"The Bahai Technique":
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/technique.htm
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/bahai.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Friday, April 16, 1999 12:04 PM
Subject: Re: Bahai Bullies & the UHJ's Fundamentalism
mcnabb.dave-world.net
From: gyrfalcon01@yahoo.com (Gyr Falcon)
Newsgroups: alt.religion.bahai,talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Bahai Bullies & the UHJ's Fundamentalism
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 15:31:26 GMT
Message-ID: <371c5765.7757226@news.dave-world.net>
References: <OHIGikAi#GA.226@upnetnews03>
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NNTP-Posting-Host: m006.mcnabb.dave-world.net
Lines: 52
Path:
rQdQ!remarQ73!supernews.com!remarQ.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed.cwix.c
om!204.189.73.222!nt.dave-world.net!m006.mcnabb.dave-world.net
Xref: rQdQ alt.religion.bahai:8447 talk.religion.misc:417204
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Friday, April 16, 1999 5:20 PM
Subject: Re: Note to FG
macleod wrote in message
<924295110.22693.0.nnrp-04.c2de8324@news.demon.co.uk>...
>Dear Fred,
>This is just a note to express my sincere admiration for the courage and
>constancy with which you fight for what you believe.
>John MacLeod
Thank you, John. Such words have been few and far
between, and I appreciate them, as well as your own
courage....
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/bahai.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai or Newsgroups
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Friday, April 23, 1999 6:24 PM
To: Newsmaster@email.msn.com
Subject: Re: talk.religion.bahai
I notice talk.religion.bahai is not yet available on
MSN.com. I'd really appreciate seeing it added
before my free one month trial runs out so I don't
have to go back to AOL....
FG
FG@hotmail.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Newsmaster@email.msn.com <Newsmaster@email.msn.com>
To: FG <FG@hotmail.com>
Date: Thursday, April 15, 1999 10:39 AM
Subject: Re:
>Dear Mr. Glaysher,
>
>Thank you for your inquiry. You have the correct contact for requesting the
>addition of a new newsgroup. I will submit your request for review. It may
>take into next week as we are involved with some newsgroup work that will
>delay adding new newsgroups, but your request is in the loop now.
>
>Sincerely,
>Newsmaster
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: FG <FG@hotmail.com>
>To: newsmaster@msn.com <newsmaster@msn.com>
>Cc: FG@hotmail.com <FG@hotmail.com>
>Date: Thursday, April 15, 1999 4:11 AM
>
>
>>Dear Newsmaster:
>>
>>About two weeks ago I took out a trial membership
>>with MSN.com. There's a newsgroup I'd really like
>>to be able to access that's not available on MSN.
>>
>>There are three newsgroups on the Bahai Faith:
>>
>>alt.religion.bahai (a typical alt group)
>>soc.religion.bahai (moderated, even censored)
>>talk.religion.bahai (unmoderated but better than alt)
>>
>>MSN offers the first two but not the last one:
>>talk.religion.bahai, which covers different topics
>>from the first two. Talk.religion.bahai was created
>>in January 1999 after a Usenet-wide vote but does
>>not seem to have been automatically picked up by
>>MSN.
>>
>>I know all three of the Bahai newsgroups are available
>>on AOL and would hate to have to go back to AOL....
>>
>>Could you, or whoever the person would be,
>>consider adding talk.religion.bahai too? I'd
>>appreciate it.
>>
>>FG
>>FG@hotmail.com
>>FG@msn.com
>>
>>PS. I've written twice now to other people at
>>MSN and they have referred me to you for help.
>>
>>_______________________________________________________________
>>Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit https://www.msn.com
>>
>
>
>
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@email.msn.com]
Sent: Saturday, April 24, 1999 7:02 AM
Subject: Re: Dismissal of Chairman of US National Bahai Assembly for Stealing Money
from a Deceased Old Widow
"The Bahai Technique":
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/technique.htm
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/bahai.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
Richard Boyle wrote in message <37209175.48D6C566@penetics.com>...
>And the proof of this statement is where?
>
>FG wrote:
>
>> This type of crime has happened repeatedly in the Bahai Faith
>> and will certainly continue as long as there are no structural
>> mechanisms to balance and limit the power and ruthlessness
>> of Bahai administrators.
>>
>> --
>> FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
>> https://members.tripod.com/~FG/bahai.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
>> alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai or Newsgroups
>
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Monday, April 26, 1999 6:55 AM
Subject: Re: Me, Fred, and Justice are victims of bahai bigotry
Mr Mahdi's allegations of Bahai censorship on AOL
are quite true.... For corroborating evidence, see
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/AOL.htm
https://209.185.176.10/~FG/AOLcensorship.txt
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/Maneck1.htm
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/bahai.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai or Newsgroups
Mr Mahdi wrote in message <19990423173650.10048.00000661@ng34.aol.com>...
>I would like to say that people who raise legitimate points here and in
other
>forums where bahais frequent are often victims of bahai bullying where to a
>point a person telling the truth is seen as disturbed, selfish, malicious,
etc.
> The attempts to ridicule Fred by creating a web page mocking him is just
>anothet example of people who hate to hear the truth. The bahais I met
online
>have shown me a new side to truth hating, blind faith, and intolerance of
>legitimate ideas and points. I and many other people on AOL had their
posts
>yanked by Mark Foster while other posts from bahai extremists and bigots
like
>Susan and of course Wendy were not yanked, even when they were making fun
of
>me, insulting me, and backbiting Fred. When Fred was expelled from AOL,
people
>like Wendy were elated at the news and said that Fred was not a member of
the
>bahai faith, and he belongs to some pseudo-bahai cult. I am a muslim who
tries
>to invite people to truth, to show the falsehood in falsehood, to make
people
>think with their minds first not emotions, etc. The bahais I have met
except
>for a few like Fred have shown how ultra extremist fanatics can actually
work
>hard enough to a point where the truth is portrayed by them as a lie and a
lie
>is portrayed as the truth. Al I have seen from these bahai bigots is a
all-out
>offensivre against justice and truth.
>Mahdi
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Monday, April 26, 1999 7:03 AM
Subject: Re: SRB service interruptions
A clear and irrefutable disclosure that the BCCA
does indeed own and run soc.religion.bahai....
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/bahai.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai or Newsgroups
Boatright Family wrote in message <1104_925057592@rickboat>...
>As most of you know, Soc.Religion.Bahai is a moderated
>newsgroup.
>
>That means, that all posts to SRB go through a single gateway
>machine. Unfortunately, that gateway has become unreliable of
>late, and the sponsors who provide ISP service to SRB are
>attempting to replace it with a newer computer.
>
>Until that happens, occasional service delays like the failing a
>couple of weeks ago may continue on SRB.
>
>We are really sorry, and if anyone has a pentium class computer
> in the 75 to 133 MHz range with 128 meg of ram that they
>would like to donate to BCCA please let me know.
>
>Rick Boatright
>co-moderator
>soc.religion.bahai
>
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Monday, April 26, 1999 7:06 AM
Subject: Re: obedience,humaninsm,ect
The usual anti-intellectual ignorance....
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/bahai.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai or Newsgroups
Mike C wrote in message <925082597.803.28@news.remarQ.com>...
>
> Dear juan,
>
>
>I have been reading your web site, you have a huge knowledge of the baha'i
>faith. But i am really stunned that you are missing something which is the
>cornerstone of the bahai faith. And this thing is the covenant of
>Baha'u'llah. To understand and believe the convenant of Baha'u'llah is
>unusual in this today 's society when
>our leaders are not behaving right , not only them ,but all of us who are
>products of this today 's corrupted
>society . how can we believe in " light",when we know or only live only "
in
>darkenness"
>
> The other thing, you need to make a distingtion between members of
>universal house of justice and
>the Universal house of justice.Those members do mistakes like us, there are
>human beings.But Baha'u'llah
>talks about the UHJ as one body which is ordained to be guided.
>
>your main concern ,if you are baha'i ,should be to accomplish your conenant
>with God , instead of trying to
>change the Authority and blessings ( "ie. will and testament
>ofAbdul-Baha") ,Baha'u'llah (and Abdul-Baha) granted to the UHJ.
>
>Although you have this huge knowledge of the baha'i faith,I am sorry to
>tell you tthat you need to read more about "the convenant of
Baha'u'llah."
>
>
>
>
>juan said :
><<Baha'u'llah most assuredly never called the Universal House of Justice
>"infallible." There is a difference between being generally fortified by
>inspiration and never being wrong. Moreover, he did not give its members
the
>charge of doing any blessed thing that comes into their heads. In the 8th
>Ishraq it is written:>>
>
>Here you go with some passages from the " will and Testament of abdu'l-
>baha"
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
>--------------------------------
>Abdu'lbaha said:"
>
>*****Page19 "Unto the most holy book,every one must turn and all that is no
>expressly recorded therein must
> be refered to the universal house of justice.That which this body
>,whether unanimously or by a majority
> doth carry,that is verily the truth and the purpose of God
>himself."
>
> Page 14 " And now concerning the house of justice which God
>ordained as the source of all good and
> freed from all error,it must be elected by universal suffrage ,
>that is ,by all believers . "
>
>
> I think your problems is not disbelieving the UHJ, instead i think you
>don't believe in the "will and Testament of abdu'l- baha". i think It is
>just beyond your mind ,reason, or human capacity. Remenber The all mighty
>God is all powerfull, can change a weak to be strong,a fallible house to
be
>infallible.
>
>
>Juan said :
><<It is very bad for the Baha'i community to capitulate to the sort of
>unthinking infallibilism you have proposed. It leads to rigidity and
>stagnation, and it places an unfair and impossible burden on our
>ordinary, every-day human brothers in the faith, the members of the House
of
>Justice, who cannot possibly live up to those sorts of expectations and
>should
>not have to try.>>
>
>****Juan , this is your human,finite mind which leads you of not believing
>the covenant.
> You can't know understand infallibilty because you are fallible or
not
>perfect ,you are a
> human being.
> Myself , i don't understand it, but my main concern is just to follow
>the covenant of Baha'u'llah.
> I care less about what the members of justice behave, or if some of
>them didn't act nicely toward you,
> but i give all my respects ,submissioons to The House( May peace be
>upon it ,may my life be a sacrifice
> for it) when acted as one BODY, when taking decisions,as prescribed
>by Baha'u'llah.
>
>
>Juan said:
><<I have to say that there was a time I was really angry with them because
>they
>bungled the advent of Baha'i cyberspace and the advent of Baha'i academia.
>>>
>
> ***** About the advent of Baha'i cyberspace , i don't know about what was
>going on,
> but we need to see things in persepecive, we need to use wisdom ,because
>this faith is still
>in its enfancy,we need to take care of it , protect it , because this is
the
>shelter of mankind .
>Is not Abdul-Baha who said that this faith ,to be still around just one
day
>,means that it is traversing a 1000
>years
>
> About the advent of Baha'i academia, i have a different view, if
>you are Baha'i , you need to be considered scholar relatively. Now Holy
>books of past religions are opened , if you know little bit about the
>baha'i faith, Understanding past religions is easy. This is the power of
>this faith.
> A really baha'i academia should focused on understanding the
>covenant. A scholar who don't
>know or believe in covenant should no be called a scholar, because " the
>will and testament of Abdul-Baha is
>clear , even someone who is uneducated , just kew how to read ,can
>understand it.
> You wonder why baha'u'llah abolished priesthood.
>
> Baha'u'llah said: "Verily ,i say! No one hath apprehended the root of
>this cause.It is incumbent
>upon everyone,in this day to perceive in this day with the eye of God and
>to hearken with his ear.
>None among the manifestations of old ,except to a prescribed degree,hath
>ever completelty ap-
>prehended the nature of this revelation"
>
> Juan, with this passage above, don't you see that none knows the nature
of
>this revelation.
>in other words there is no any baha'i, included members of the house
>individually ,can proclaim to know how baha'is can practice or live this
>faith.
>So, be carefull with with your reasons or intellectual capacities. Because
>without using those
>gifts in right directions, they can hurt you spiritually.
>
>juan said :
><<
>But on mature reflection I see that it was unreasonable for me to expect
>them
>to deal unerringly with these new and unfamiliar phenomena, especially
since
>they were outside both the expertise of the individual members and the
>purview of the House's sphere of authority. Let's not ask so much of them,
>let's not be so inhumane.>>
>
> After all , I think you need some affections or love, probably ,you have
>been hurt , i don't know.
> I give you all my kindess bahai love to you.
>
> May all mankind come to immerse itself in this ocean of love,essence of
>happiness
> ( bahai faith).
>
>
> Adelard Rubangura
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Monday, April 26, 1999 7:15 AM
Subject: Re: Me, Fred, and Justice are victims of bahai bigotry
During more than several months of reading the
AOL Bahai Forum Message Boards, I never read
anything by Mr Mahdi that was a threat against anyone,
though Bahais frequently harassed and atttempted to
fabricate reasons for throwing him off AOL, as they
successfully did with me on three separate occasions....
As a Muslim, Mr Mahdi's opinions are anathama to the
fundamentalist Bahais, but he's entitled to his views.
Foster's concocting of specious reasons for driving
Mahdi and others off AOL is thinly disguised fascism,
clear and simple....
Jerri White, Spirituality Forums Administrator for AOL,
is an extremely naive person when it comes to understanding
what Bahais like Mark Foster and Susan Maneck are actually
using AOL for. It seemed to me at times he might even be
sympathetic to the Bahai fundamentalist view of things and
consciously protecting it. Those interested could write him at
RBCFAdmin@aol.com
It seems to me Foster is bring his campaign of lies and
character assassination against Mr Mahdi on AOL over
here to trb. Perhaps Mr Mahdi should contact the FBI for
Foster's stalking him....
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/bahai.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai or Newsgroups
RBCF Mark wrote in message <19990426015048.20855.00001200@ng-ch1.aol.com>...
>Mahdi,
>
>If I misunderstood your comments, then so did all the folks who run the
Life
>Area on AOL misunderstand them.
>
>Actually, I never even thought about contacting the authorities. I did it
based
>on the suggestions of my supervisors and one or two others.
>
>I don't have you (or anyone) blocked. However, if you try to email me from
the
>AOL newsgroup interface, it won't reach me. I block all Internet email on
AOL
>because of the constant flow of porn. You need to email me directly from an
AOL
>mail window.
>
>Mark A. Foster
>owner@sociologist.com
>RBCF Mark (on AOL only)
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Monday, April 26, 1999 7:25 AM
Subject: Re: Baha'i Scriptures and Universal Declaration of Human Rights
Juan,
Thank you for sharing this link with all of us on
talk.religion.bahai. I look forward to reading your
article.
Let me thank you for your book Modernity & the
Millenium, which I have just recently read. It was a
profound pleasure to read an intelligent work by a
fellow Bahai on the great divide of modernity and
Baha'u'llah's grappling with its awesome forces....
It's a pity and lasting disgrace that the ignoramuses
on Mount Carmel have driven you out of the faith....
Please accept my heart-felt apologies.
Vaclav Havel: "It is my opinion that the advantage of a
clear conscience is always paramount."
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/bahai.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai or Newsgroups
jrcole@umich.edu wrote in message <7frkae$aq8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>
>
>FYI - Juan
>
>------
>Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 16:36:03 -0700
>Sender: H-NET List for Bahai Studies
>From: Bill Garlington
>Subject: Publication Announcement
>
>H-Bahai proudly announces the latest addition to its Occasional Papers in
>Shaykhi, Babi and Baha'i Studies series:
>
>
>Juan R. I. Cole. "The Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the Baha'i
>Scriptures." Occasional Papers in Shaykhi, Babi and Baha'i Studies, vol. 3,
>no. 2 (April, 1999), available on the World Wide Web at
>https://h-net2.msu.edu/~bahai/bhpapers/vol3/rights.htm
>
>or via
>
>https://h-net2.msu.edu/~bahai/bhpapers.htm
>
>Bill Garlington [editor]
>
>
>
>--
>Juan Cole, History, U of Michigan
>https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai.htm
>Buy *Modernity and the Millennium: The Genesis of the Baha'i Faith* at:
>https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN%3D0231110812/002-4036721-8058448
>
>-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
>https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Monday, April 26, 1999 7:50 AM
Subject: Re: Baha'i Faith pointer
Comparing apples with oranges...
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/bahai.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai or Newsgroups
Richard Boyle wrote in message <371FAA07.47911944@penetics.com>...
>And do you REALLY think they should? After all I doubt very much whether
you
>would do that if the positions were reversed. I mean, how much of the
valid
>criticism and contraty point of view to what you believe do you promote on
your
>web site?
>
>FG wrote:
>
>> Robert A. Little <rlittle33@my-dejanews.com> wrote in message
>> news:7fir7r$fqp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com...
>> >
>> > If you are here in this newsgroup because you want to know something
about
>> the
>> > Baha'i Faith, then I humbly suggest that you go (electronically) to
>> > www.bahai.org or www.bahai.com. These sites await your thirst for
>> knowledge,
>> > and should provide answers to most of your questions. You are
encouraged
>> also
>> > to look up the Baha'is in your non-virtual community and get a feel for
>> how
>> > they behave.
>>
>> Please note that such a pointer to my website or talk.religion.bahai
>> could not appear on soc.religion.bahai, which continues it more
>> than two year policy of suppressing all mention of both....
>>
>> --
>> FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
>> https://members.tripod.com/~FG/bahai.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
>> alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai or Newsgroups
>
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Monday, April 26, 1999 7:51 AM
Subject: Re: A troll goes offline
Obiously a Bahai troll.... One of many....
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/bahai.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai or Newsgroups
kohli@mail.ameritel.net wrote in message
<7fjgul$2n2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>Greetings!
>
>I wanted to get the news out and Eric's message was not yet showing on
>dejanews, so I'm starting a new thread. Despite my assumption that it
would
>take a go round or two w/ dejanews, I've a recent report that the
>fgaysher@dejanews.com troll may be taking a break from his newsgroup
>contributions. I am not sure about the FGAYsher@hotmail.com troll. So
that
>me be one yet to go.
>
>Blessings!
>- Pat
>
>
>-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
>https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Monday, April 26, 1999 7:56 AM
Subject: Re: Dismissal of Chairman of US National Assembly
jrcole@umich.edu wrote in message <7fthko$s34$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>
>The secretive and dictatorial way that the National Baha'i administration
in
>the U.S. is run is the primary reason for which the national community is
>sunk in stagnation, for which its intellectual life is stunted, for which
>individual initiative is actively punished, for which so few are willing to
>devote themselves wholeheartedly to its service
All of this is true too of the UHJ in Haifa.
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/bahai.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai or Newsgroups
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Monday, April 26, 1999 7:57 AM
Subject: Re: Dismissal of Chairman of US National Bahai Assembly for Stealing Money
from a Deceased Old Widow
The proof is widely known to Bahais who have
any integrity whatsoever....
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/bahai.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai or Newsgroups
Richard Boyle wrote in message <37209175.48D6C566@penetics.com>...
>And the proof of this statement is where?
>
>FG wrote:
>
>> This type of crime has happened repeatedly in the Bahai Faith
>> and will certainly continue as long as there are no structural
>> mechanisms to balance and limit the power and ruthlessness
>> of Bahai administrators.
>>
>> --
>> FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
>> https://members.tripod.com/~FG/bahai.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
>> alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai or Newsgroups
>
----------
From: Mr Mahdi[SMTP:mrmahdi@aol.com]
Sent: Monday, April 26, 1999 12:43 PM
To: FG@hotmail.com
Subject: Example of Mark's fanaticism
Subj:TOS
Date:4/26/99 1:37:05 AM Central Daylight Time
From:RBCF Mark
To:Mr Mahdi
And another one - for the same reason. Mahdi, you are returning to your old
style.
Subject: Re: Muhammad said it would fall 1400 years ago
Date: 04/25/1999 1:51 a.m. Central Daylight Time
From: Mr Mahdi
Message-id: <19990425025158.13284.00001299@ng16.aol.com>
>By the way, I finished posting that long article on the Finality of
>Prophethood in the Interfaith discussion folder. I look forward to your
>responses there after you have finished the entire article. You can access
>the first part here: A Bahá'í Approach to theClaim of Finality in Islam p. 1
Susan, I have read the article. It is amazing that the article quotes hadiths
that clearly indicate the finality of Muhammad (saaw) and Islam, but it doesnt
try to refute the source, all it does is give how Muslims somehow "developed
attitudes" that made them "believe" that Islam is the last and Muhammad (saaw)
is what he is, khatam an nabiyeen. It is pure beating around the bush, anti
Islamic polemics. In order to make a refuted belief sound not
refuted or make a belief that refutes your belief to make it like it doesnt
refute you belief techniques such as twisting the text, not answering or
refuting the comments occurs. If Islam cleary shows in many ahadiths and ayats
the finality of Muhammad (saaw) why dont you guys try to show the hadith is
weak my checking the isnad? When Muslims read this, they from their point of
view become more convinced that bahais are against Islam by twisting
the text and not even answering the question. I thought when reading the
article I would see bahais trying to refute the source of the ahadith by
showing a defective isnad, etc., but actually they tried to blame muslims for
wrongly assuming such clear cut texts really meant what it says.
Mahdi
Subj:TOS
Date:4/26/99 1:32:21 AM Central Daylight Time
From:RBCF Mark
To:Mr Mahdi
Another one sent to TOS for the same reason.
-----------
Subject: Re: Muhammad said it would fall 1400 years ago
Date: 04/25/1999 8:14 p.m. Central Daylight Time
From: Mr Mahdi
Message-id: <19990425211411.03525.00001465@ng-fr1.aol.com>
>Because any sound academic scholarship illustrates that isnad criticism is
>inadequate for determining the authenticity of a hadith. The article you read
>utilized the modern academic techniques of higher criticism which, as I
>mentioned, I accept. As I also mentioned, when one rejects such techniques
>one is a fundamentalist by definition. That is why it is absurd to consider
>me one. These methods, recognize what any reputable academic scholar on Islam
>knows, that hadiths largely reached their present form two or three centuries
>after Muhammad and pretty much reflected the concerns of the Islamic
>community at that time.
Get out here, the orientalists also said that the Quran developed its present
form after many years, despite the copies of the Quran from the caliph Uthman
era. When you have independent thought and an enlighten mind, you develope not
just common sense but you set intellectual trends not just follow trends like
orientalism designed to discredit Islam. You dont accpet real criticism of
ahadith because it doesnt agree with your beliefs, but you
accpet "modern criticism" because not only people like you can formulate wild
theories but it gives you a flexibility to discredit Islam that real criticism
doesnt allow. You know that you cant find any hadith isnad as faulty, thats
why you cling to the orietalists standards so tighly. The reason why the
orientalists developed this standard was because they knew that they couldnt
discredit the ahadith or Quran thru studying the sources, isnad,
text, etc., but they figured out if they develope some standard that allow
them to formulate wild theories it can give them a chance to try to discredit
Islam. A person is known best for setting a standard, for having enlighten
thought that allows him or her to give new ensight to something. A person who
lacks these attributes just believes in the hype and makes it bigger by being a
spokeperson for it. I know that you were part of the 5-year plan
in Lebanon that tried to convert Muslims to the bahai faith. So discrediting
Islam and having a genuine almost innate hatred for Islam is very apparent from
you. Like Allah said in the Quran, the enemies of Allah try to put out the
Light of Allah but Allah's Light can never be put out. The movement to
discredit Islam has plagued Muslims since day one, but Allah is making Muslims
every second and even all of the attempts from the enemies of Islam
will prove futile. La'anat Allah 'ala Kafireen.
Mahdi
Subj:sent to TOS
Date:4/26/99 1:28:05 AM Central Daylight Time
From:RBCF Mark
To:Mr Mahdi
Mahdi,
Again, you cannot argue with Baha'is. It was better when you were asking
questions.
Mark A. Foster
-----
Subject: Susan: Farewell Sermon Revisited
Date: 04/25/1999 10:44 p.m. Central Daylight Time
From: Mr Mahdi
Message-id: <19990425234417.11709.00001820@ng26.aol.com>
Susan often talks about the so-called "modern standard" of criticism. Based on
this concept, Susan rejects to examine the isnad or chain of the hadith, the
source, the text, etc., because she claims that these things alone are not
sufficient in determining the validity of something. Since Susan does not set
intellectual trends but rather follows them, and easily believes the hype, she
has adopted the orientalist
standard in evaluating Islam that was solely designed to discredit Islam. The
point I like to make here is that biographies of Muhammad (saaw) written by non
muslim orientalist have in their books the Farewell Sermon of Muhammad (saaw).
The interesting point is that Susan rejects this hadith although her fellow
academic peers with their "modern standard" use this very hadith in their
books. She rejects this hadith because 1. it conflicts the bahai
belief and 2. is doesnt refute Islam's claim of finality. To emphasize an
obvious double standard, I would like Susan to comment on this to "clear"
things up. If Susan can somehow prove that their is no double standard and
their is intellectual sincerity on her part, I would Susan to immediately
address it.
Mahdi
Mahdi
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 1999 7:50 AM
Subject: Re: Baha'i Scriptures and Universal Declaration of Human Rights
Juan,
Not kind nor generous but honest. Modernity & the
Millenium is a brilliant reading of the historical Baha'u'llah
and the forces that helped to shape his revelation. It
establishes beyond question what a huge variance exists
between the Teachings of Baha'u'llah and the distortions the
Bahai administration continues to fob off today on Bahais and
non-Bahais.
Actually, I wrote an essay on Hayden a few years ago but
have been unable to find a journal willing to publish it since
his thinking on spirituality and race are very far indeed from
the prevailing postmodern cliches and, for that matter, the
one-dimensional thinking of the UHJ....
I too believe it is part of God's wisdom to have mutilated
the UHJ, restricting it to only legislative matters, though
they continue to transgress on the consciences of avowed
believers and others. You say at the end of your article that
"There is room for optimism about the future." I must disagree
with you. I really can't believe the future holds much promise
for the Bahai Faith or the UHJ. The many abuses during the last
decade show how flawed the institution is and how extreme the
measures are to which it is willing to go to retain a kind of
tyranny over people's minds and souls that Baha'u'llah
himself denounced, as you document so well in your book
and articles. These tensions and antinomies will prove lasting
ones for the Bahai Faith, as they are for the human soul....
I do concur that public opinion is now the only recourse for
counterbalancing the tyranny of the UHJ. If it is going to lie
to people in general, as well as to elected government officials,
about the nature of the Bahai Faith and its practices, there
should be consequences. If it won't engage and answer direct
questions or appeals, it should have to hear the same questions
from the sources of intelligent social opinion that it seeks ultimately
to seduce and deceive into its ranks. If I have learnt anything during
the more than two year battle for talk.religion.bahai, it is that
driving everything into the open for people to judge and decide
for themselves is the only way to handle the outright lies and
deceptions that are now routine in Bahai circles.
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/bahai.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai or Newsgroups
jrcole@umich.edu wrote in message <7g2ven$esq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>Thanks so much for the kind words, Fred. I hope you will also do some
>writing, on things like Robert Hayden's spirituality (I know it is far more
>complex than the biographies allow).
>
>It is true that a subcommittee of the Universal House of Justice composed
of
>Farzam Arbab, Douglas Martin and Ian Semple had the counselors of the
>International Teaching Center accuse me of 'making statements contrary to
the
>Covenant' in April 1996, just because they did not like my email postings.
As
>a result, I was confused for two and a half years. After all, I had not in
>my own mind contravened "the Covenant" in any way. I mean, had I claimed
to
>be the 17th Guardian? No! Had I claimed to be able to do more than
express
>my personal and non-authoritative opinion about the meaning of Baha'i
>scripture? No! Had I made any unreasonable demands on the UHJ? No! At
that
>very time, the UHJ had asked me and I had agreed to help with the
>retranslation of *Some Answered Questions*! I had offered them, and they
had
>accepted, my provisional translations of the Tablets. What weird sort of
>dealings did they have with people, to essentially employ them on the one
>hand but to horsewhip them on the other? I'm afraid I thought that the only
>sort of persons went about behind the scenes threatening college professors
>with being shunned unless they fell silent were wild-eyed cultists, and I'm
>afraid that is still my opinion of Farzam Arbab, Doug Martin, Ian Semple,
>Fred Schechter, Monajjem, Stephen Birkland et al. Unfortunately, there are
>lots of nooks and crannies in the Baha'i administration where cultists can
>hide out and abuse adherents.
>
>However, I worked my way through things, and found my faith in Baha'u'llah
>once more, even if I have become convinced by my dealings with them that
the
>Universal House of Justice has in fact been mutilated by the absence of a
>living Guardian, just as he predicted would happen. But this 'mutilation'
>can be a good thing, too. I think the reason we don't have a Guardian is
>because God decided human beings needed to grow up and stand on their own
two
>feet. This maturity of humankind, which Baha'u'llah proclaims when he
talks
>of the "advent of Universal Reason" among "the people," is incompatible
with
>having someone interpret our scriptures for us authoritatively. So, we
have
>been left with a purely legislative body (the UHJ), and everyone is now
free
>to express their conscience and proclaim their views about Baha'i theology
>and social principles.
>
>Because the UHJ has been, unfortunately, mutilated by the absence of a
living
>Guardian, they have no one, as Shoghi Effendi explicitly predicted, to tell
>them when they are straying from their proper legislative functions into
>matters where they have no scriptural or constitutional authority (like the
>email messages of Baha'i professors or those of Baha'i fiction writers like
>Michael McKenny). I fear I have concluded that the *only* force that can
in
>some ways repair the damage of the mutilation, the only prosthesis that can
>allow the House of Justice to walk normally again, is Baha'i Public Opinion
>and the consensus of the believers. And that is why I speak out and will
>continue to speak out every time the Baha'i administration contravenes the
>Universal Declaration of Human Rights with regard to its own adherents,
given
>the close fit between the ideals of that document and those of Baha'u'llah
>and the other holy figures.
>
>So, you see, in the end I haven't been 'driven out' of anything. I am a
>Baha'i, just like any other Baha'i, a believer in Baha'u'llah. Whether
>others wish to recognize and acknowledge that, and whether they wish to
>backbite me or listen to others backbite an innocent person, is completely
>irrelevant to the facts.
>
>cheers Juan
>
>
>--
>Juan Cole, History, U of Michigan
>https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai.htm
>Buy *Modernity and the Millennium: The Genesis of the Baha'i Faith* at:
>https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN%3D0231110812/002-4036721-8058448
>
>-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
>https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 1999 8:01 AM
Subject: Re: An Example of Bahai Censorship on AOL
Mr Mahdi,
Thanks for posting this any other examples of
Foster's double standard. You're apparenlty the only
honest voice left on AOL....
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/bahai.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai or Newsgroups
Mr Mahdi wrote in message <19990426124444.14294.00007684@ng-cm1.aol.com>...
>Subj: TOS
>Date: 4/26/99 1:37:05 AM Central Daylight Time
>From: RBCF Mark
>To: Mr Mahdi
>
>And another one - for the same reason. Mahdi, you are returning to your old
>style.
>
>Subject: Re: Muhammad said it would fall 1400 years ago
>Date: 04/25/1999 1:51 a.m. Central Daylight Time
>From: Mr Mahdi
>Message-id: <19990425025158.13284.00001299@ng16.aol.com>
>
>>By the way, I finished posting that long article on the Finality of
>>Prophethood in the Interfaith discussion folder. I look forward to your
>>responses there after you have finished the entire article. You can access
>>the first part here: A Bahá'í Approach to theClaim of Finality in Islam
p. 1
>
>Susan, I have read the article. It is amazing that the article quotes
hadiths
>that clearly indicate the finality of Muhammad (saaw) and Islam, but it
doesnt
>try to refute the source, all it does is give how Muslims somehow
"developed
>attitudes" that made them "believe" that Islam is the last and Muhammad
(saaw)
>is what he is, khatam an nabiyeen. It is pure beating around the bush,
anti
>Islamic polemics. In order to make a refuted belief sound not
>refuted or make a belief that refutes your belief to make it like it doesnt
>refute you belief techniques such as twisting the text, not answering or
>refuting the comments occurs. If Islam cleary shows in many ahadiths and
ayats
>the finality of Muhammad (saaw) why dont you guys try to show the hadith is
>weak my checking the isnad? When Muslims read this, they from their point
of
>view become more convinced that bahais are against Islam by twisting
>the text and not even answering the question. I thought when reading the
>article I would see bahais trying to refute the source of the ahadith by
>showing a defective isnad, etc., but actually they tried to blame muslims
for
>wrongly assuming such clear cut texts really meant what it says.
>Mahdi
>
>Subj: TOS
>Date: 4/26/99 1:32:21 AM Central Daylight Time
>From: RBCF Mark
>To: Mr Mahdi
>
>Another one sent to TOS for the same reason.
>-----------
>
>Subject: Re: Muhammad said it would fall 1400 years ago
>Date: 04/25/1999 8:14 p.m. Central Daylight Time
>From: Mr Mahdi
>Message-id: <19990425211411.03525.00001465@ng-fr1.aol.com>
>
>>Because any sound academic scholarship illustrates that isnad criticism is
>>inadequate for determining the authenticity of a hadith. The article you
read
>>utilized the modern academic techniques of higher criticism which, as I
>>mentioned, I accept. As I also mentioned, when one rejects such techniques
>>one is a fundamentalist by definition. That is why it is absurd to
consider
>>me one. These methods, recognize what any reputable academic scholar on
Islam
>>knows, that hadiths largely reached their present form two or three
centuries
>>after Muhammad and pretty much reflected the concerns of the Islamic
>>community at that time.
>
>Get out here, the orientalists also said that the Quran developed its
present
>form after many years, despite the copies of the Quran from the caliph
Uthman
>era. When you have independent thought and an enlighten mind, you develope
not
>just common sense but you set intellectual trends not just follow trends
like
>orientalism designed to discredit Islam. You dont accpet real criticism of
>ahadith because it doesnt agree with your beliefs, but you
>accpet "modern criticism" because not only people like you can formulate
wild
>theories but it gives you a flexibility to discredit Islam that real
criticism
>doesnt allow. You know that you cant find any hadith isnad as faulty,
thats
>why you cling to the orietalists standards so tighly. The reason why the
>orientalists developed this standard was because they knew that they
couldnt
>discredit the ahadith or Quran thru studying the sources, isnad,
>text, etc., but they figured out if they develope some standard that allow
>them to formulate wild theories it can give them a chance to try to
discredit
>Islam. A person is known best for setting a standard, for having enlighten
>thought that allows him or her to give new ensight to something. A person
who
>lacks these attributes just believes in the hype and makes it bigger by
being a
>spokeperson for it. I know that you were part of the 5-year plan
>in Lebanon that tried to convert Muslims to the bahai faith. So
discrediting
>Islam and having a genuine almost innate hatred for Islam is very apparent
from
>you. Like Allah said in the Quran, the enemies of Allah try to put out the
>Light of Allah but Allah's Light can never be put out. The movement to
>discredit Islam has plagued Muslims since day one, but Allah is making
Muslims
>every second and even all of the attempts from the enemies of Islam
>will prove futile. La'anat Allah 'ala Kafireen.
>Mahdi
>
>Subj: sent to TOS
>Date: 4/26/99 1:28:05 AM Central Daylight Time
>From: RBCF Mark
>To: Mr Mahdi
>
>Mahdi,
>
>Again, you cannot argue with Baha'is. It was better when you were asking
>questions.
>
>Mark A. Foster
>-----
>
>Subject: Susan: Farewell Sermon Revisited
>Date: 04/25/1999 10:44 p.m. Central Daylight Time
>From: Mr Mahdi
>Message-id: <19990425234417.11709.00001820@ng26.aol.com>
>
>Susan often talks about the so-called "modern standard" of criticism.
Based on
>this concept, Susan rejects to examine the isnad or chain of the hadith,
the
>source, the text, etc., because she claims that these things alone are not
>sufficient in determining the validity of something. Since Susan does not
set
>intellectual trends but rather follows them, and easily believes the hype,
she
>has adopted the orientalist
>standard in evaluating Islam that was solely designed to discredit Islam.
The
>point I like to make here is that biographies of Muhammad (saaw) written by
non
>muslim orientalist have in their books the Farewell Sermon of Muhammad
(saaw).
>The interesting point is that Susan rejects this hadith although her fellow
>academic peers with their "modern standard" use this very hadith in their
>books. She rejects this hadith because 1. it conflicts the bahai
>belief and 2. is doesnt refute Islam's claim of finality. To emphasize an
>obvious double standard, I would like Susan to comment on this to "clear"
>things up. If Susan can somehow prove that their is no double standard and
>their is intellectual sincerity on her part, I would Susan to immediately
>address it.
>Mahdi
>
>Mahdi
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 1999 8:06 AM
Subject: Re: quotations re soc.religion.bahai censorship
A clear and irrefutable disclosure that the BCCA
does indeed own and run soc.religion.bahai....
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/bahai.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai or Newsgroups
Boatright Family wrote in message <1104_925057592@rickboat>...
>As most of you know, Soc.Religion.Bahai is a moderated
>newsgroup.
>
>That means, that all posts to SRB go through a single gateway
>machine. Unfortunately, that gateway has become unreliable of
>late, and the sponsors who provide ISP service to SRB are
>attempting to replace it with a newer computer.
>
>Until that happens, occasional service delays like the failing a
>couple of weeks ago may continue on SRB.
>
>We are really sorry, and if anyone has a pentium class computer
> in the 75 to 133 MHz range with 128 meg of ram that they
>would like to donate to BCCA please let me know.
>
>Rick Boatright
>co-moderator
>soc.religion.bahai
>
Boatright Family wrote in message <1103_925057137@rickboat>...
>Well, perhaps a word is in order from one of us.
>
>Seldom enough do any of the moderators of SRB choose to
>post. In general, we have agreed amoung ourselves not to
>participate in the fray _IN_ srb, and generally, we try to stay out
>of the fray _OFF_ srb too.
>
>There are serious differences between what the various
>moderators will post, with myself clearly the most "liberal"
>amoung the group.
>
>However, we try to stay focused on the charter of the
>newsgroup, that is, SRB is chartered for discussion of the
>BELIEFS AND TEACHINGS OF THE BAHA'I FAITH. Collateral
>discussions, about the administration of SRB, about the beliefs
>of individuals, personal histories of faith or of accusation, none
>of these has any place in that newsgroup.
>
>In addition, a few years back, the moderators faced a crisis of
>faith regarding those who promote a belief in an alternace
>succession of authority within the Baha'i Faith. Long and heart
>breaking discussion about freedom of speech, the role of the
>internet, and our personal faith, led to the conclusion that
>Baha'u'llah's injunction to shun Covenant breakers means shun,
>and that we would not post messages by known cb's and would
>not post messages argueing in favor of an alternate succession
>of authority within the faith. This was, and continues to be a
>horrid burdon.
>
>At this time, posts get rejected for several reasons.
>
>1) not about the beliefs and teachings of the Baha'i Faith
>2) arguementative, not polite, insulting, obnoxious, rude. -- you
>may say anything you like about the other persons position, but
>you may say nothing about them. the moderators INSIST on
>polite discourse
>3) the alternate authority arguement above
>4) signal to noise repetative multiple answer to the same
>quesiton.
>
>I know of no other reasons for rejection in the past year.
>
>The second is a _very_ subjective and individual decision.
>Each person on the hot seat has to choose for themselves
>where to draw that line.
>
>Anyone interested in applying for a position as a mod, is
>welcome to ask. It is a horrid, difficult, painful, hard, task.
>
>Rick Boatright
>co-moderator
>soc.religion.bahai
>
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 1999 8:06 AM
Subject: Re: Fred, SRB and censorship.
A clear and irrefutable disclosure that the BCCA
does indeed own and run soc.religion.bahai....
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/bahai.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai or Newsgroups
Boatright Family wrote in message <1104_925057592@rickboat>...
>As most of you know, Soc.Religion.Bahai is a moderated
>newsgroup.
>
>That means, that all posts to SRB go through a single gateway
>machine. Unfortunately, that gateway has become unreliable of
>late, and the sponsors who provide ISP service to SRB are
>attempting to replace it with a newer computer.
>
>Until that happens, occasional service delays like the failing a
>couple of weeks ago may continue on SRB.
>
>We are really sorry, and if anyone has a pentium class computer
> in the 75 to 133 MHz range with 128 meg of ram that they
>would like to donate to BCCA please let me know.
>
>Rick Boatright
>co-moderator
>soc.religion.bahai
>
Boatright Family wrote in message <1106_925058942@rickboat>...
>Please note: I don't make it a habit to read this newsgroup, and
>I don't intend to make it a habit to reply to Fred or anyone else
>here, but for the third time today, I return to my keyboard to
>clarify an issue about the operation of the moderators of SRB.
>
>The moderators of SRB are authorized and supervised by no
>insititution of the Baha'i adiministration. We have been known
>to exchange emails with members of the protection Board, and
>with the Conselors, but our policies, and our procedures, and
>our decisions are entirely our own. We have _never_ received
>direct instruction from any NSA, nor from the House. The
>moderation of SRB, like the creation of TRB, the direction of the
>Baha'i areas on AOL, the variousl Baha'i email lists, etc etc are a
>function of individual initiative. What faults we may have, what
>mistakes we may make are entirely our own.
>
>As to the censorhsip of discussion about TRB during its
>formation, the moderators made the decision that we made a
>mistake at the start allowing that discussion, since SRB is
>chartered for the discussion of the Beliefs and Teachings of the
>Baha'i Faith and not for the discussion of Usenet administration.
> We consistantly directed that discussion to soc.religion.misc
>and to news.groups, which are appropriate forums for that
>discussion.
>
>Are the moderators of SRB censoring discussion there? Sure!
>We reject posts, just as moderators do in _any_ moderated
>group. Therefore, we censor. We choose this message and
>not that one. Further, since our decisions are individual and not
>corporate, the posting of a message may well depend on the
>week, and moderator who takes the message as well as the
>content. We're human, and we're trying to have aplace to have
>a polite discussion of Baha'i beliefs. Most of the time we
>manage that.
>
>Don't expect me to participate in a long drawn out discussion of
>this, or my other messages, I do not make it a habit to read this
>newsgroup. I hope that these short messages have provided
>some clarification about our intent.
>
>Rick Boatright
>co-moderator
>soc.religion.bahai
>
>
----------
From: Mr Mahdi[SMTP:mrmahdi@aol.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 29, 1999 12:25 AM
To: FG@hotmail.com
Subject: The Identity of Gry Falcon
Fred, I am 99.99 percent certain that the cowardly clown aka "Gry Falcon" is an
AOL member who is very familiar with the bahai message boards. On the page
mocking me, he used the same backround that I used on my webpage that is only
available to AOL members. Second, somehow he knew my AOL experience with
bahais and the bahai message boards. I have narrowed it down to a few
candidates who could be Gry Falcon: Ruletherod (Rule has recently "reverted" to
the bahai faith and made an apology to all bahais he offended and retracted on
his previous beliefs of bahai censorship), Nadle, Susan, and of course Mark. I
believe it to be Rule because for the simple fact of the style of the "humor,"
but it could be any of the above.
Mahdi
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Friday, April 30, 1999 6:36 AM
Subject: Bahai Censorship - Technique
During the last several years or more a number of observers have noted
the common methods many Bahais use to avoid various issues or
discredit people who hold opinions other than their own:
FG, May 12, 1992:
"The Baha'i Faith has become very oppressive and manipulative of
the individual. That to me is merely a statement of fact, as I
have experienced it, for nearly sixteen years now [over 22]. The usual
stratagem in dealing with anyone who would express his conscience
in good faith is to pretend the Cause is above any kind of
criticism whatsoever while intimating that anyone who would speak
honestly must have something wrong with him, i.e., his spiritual
life isn't what it should be, he doesn't understand the nature of
unity, or he's accused of trying to obtain power for himself,
which at times seems merely a calculated way of discrediting the
person, and so on. Another common strategy used to acquire
control over the individual is to humor the person by letting him
pour himself out, etc., and then self-righteously giving him the
Truth."
Ron House, November 14, 1997:
"I know what you mean. I've found over the years that
there is a technique used by traditional Baha'is and
others to squash dissension: harry the dissenter so
much he says something intemperate, then point out
how 'loving' and 'compassionate' they are and how
nasty the dissenter is. The trouble is that this
technique works, so I've been making a conscious
effort not to fall for it. Also, when they get the
dissenter discouraged and miserable enough, he
invariably makes a slip-up sooner or later that they
can REALLY let loose the venom over. IMHO, they did
this to you when you misread Sharon's intentions.
At any other time, they would overlook faults, as
Baha'u'llah says, but when they're in this mode
they go for the jugular. Very sad."
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/House2.htm
FG, June 1998:
"Some of the most striking methods demonstrated repeatedly by
many Bahais during the last year and a half of discussion about
an unmoderated newsgroup is their refusal to listen and respond to
the criticisms of those who are in favor of talk.religion.bahai,
ignoring their concerns, never responding analytically to their
messages and reasoning and logic and evidence, attacking them
through character assassination and ad hominem, ganging up
on individuals, and "circling the wagons" around every action
of the srb moderators or others who are opposed to
talk.religion.bahai."
"More than twenty different people on my web site have posted messages
explaining their experience with srb censorship yet many srb Bahais
NEVER address their concerns. Ignoring such charges will not make
them go away. NO ONE has to "try" to link the trb interest poll with
censorship on srb; the moderators themselves have done that by
suppressing droves of people for years. There are many people who
believe such suppression is part and parcel of the Bahai
community as it exists today. A YES vote need not necessarily
support such a belief. There are other reasons Bahais might vote
YES."
Fran Baker, May 1998:
"Just have to say that in my experience this is a common
technique of manipulative people in general; it is especially
effective with thoughtful people who are willing to see both
sides of things, i.e., their own fault. I consider this brow-beating
technique to be a form of abuse. The only way to deal with it is
to call them on it every time and to refuse to let yourself be beat
up, i.e., not to do your part of the "tango." This can be very hard
to do, but it works.You can break this pattern in a personal
relationship. I don't know whether it's possible when a group
acts this way. Very scary."
Dr. Juan Cole, June 12, 1998:
"Let me ask you why in the world you think that I would risk my professional
reputation by publicly stating falsehoods? ...The very technique of the
more glaze-eyed among these people is to unbearably bully a Baha'i whom
they don't like, use unjustified threats of declaring him or her a CB to
silence the individual, and if the person will not be silenced, then to
depend upon the gullibility of the Baha'is in refusing to listen to any
victim's story because, of course, the Baha'i institutions are infallible
and divinely guided and could never do anything wrong. It is a perfect
racket."
"Of course, this technique of making liberals go away has been enormously
successful, and ex-Baha'i liberals have no credibility with the remaining
Baha'is nor do most of them have any energy to continue to make a case,
either to the Baha'is or the outside world, for the incredible abuses that
go on inside this organization ostensibly committed to tolerance!"
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/Cole10.htm
K. Paul Johnson, September 15, 1998:
"If that principle [people are innocent until proven guilty]
were followed by Baha'i administration and individuals in
their condemnations of their fellow believers, I
would have very little to complain about regarding Baha'i
affairs. But character assassination by innuendo is the
preferred way of dealing with anything remotely resembling
dissidence. Seems like that's exactly what you're doing to Juan
Cole in your message. Saying I don't want to know what you've
"got" on him, thus attacking me but insinuating you have some
awful proof of unspecified guilt on his part. If that's not
character assassination by innuendo, what is?"
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/Johnson18.htm
Gibro28W, October 12, 1998:
"In summary, the biggest problem, as I see it,
is that most Baha'is don't take criticism seriously--they tune it out as
"negative" or "harmful to spiritual growth." This selfish
attitude is very stupid. First of all, Baha'is entice people to join them.
When they do, they indoctrinate them until they think like the group. But as
soon as a red flare of doubt goes up in the convert's mind, they're cordoned
off by the group and reminded of their "spiritual" obligations in the name
of Baha'u'llah or the "Covenant." If left unresolved and doubt gives vent to
prolonged criticism, the convert is sent packing or is kicked out. What
we have here is a broken family that had failed to truly listen to the needs
of its members in the first place."
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/srb73.htm
Barthaman on September 14, 1998:
"Baha'i dissenters, more or less, are wounded souls abandoned
by their fathers,so-to-speak. They have been cast out and
dismissed or shunned without having had a fair hearing. Consider
their pain when the rest of their "family" dismisses them too.
Can you know what it's like to be accused of heresy and shunned
following a sincere intellectual conflict (inspired by doubt)--
after you've sacrificed years in devoted service to your religion?
Can you comprehend their sense of betrayal and injustice? This is
why disillusioned believers leave their religions each year--while
some still hang around, banging on the door now and then, demanding
a refund for their lost youth. In time they will have to move on,
however, writing the Baha'i Faith off as another lesson in fraud.
Mock these people all you want--but for the grace of God, the next
dissenter could be you. Don't be too confident, my friend."
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/srb66.htm
Juan Cole wrote, February 23, 1999:
"There is nothing to be puzzled by. Right wing Baha'is only like to hear
the
sound of their own voices (which are the only voices they will admit to
being
"Baha'i" at all)."
"Obviously, the world is so constructed that they cannot in fact only hear
their own voices. They are forced to hear other voices that differ from
theirs. This most disturbs them when the voices come from enrolled Baha'is
or when the voices speak of the Baha'i faith."
"The way they sometimes deal with the enrolled Baha'is is to summon them to
a
heresy inquiry and threaten them with being shunned if they do not fall
silent."
"With non-Baha'is or with ex-Baha'is, they deal with their speech about the
faith by backbiting, slandering and libelling the speaker. You will note
that since I've been on this list I have been accused of long-term heresy,
of
"claiming authority," of out and out lying (though that was retracted,
twice), of misrepresentation, of 'playing fast and loose with the facts,'
and
even of being 'delusional.' I have been accused of all these falsehoods by
*Baha'is*, by prominent Baha'is. I have been backbitten by them."
"This shows that all the talk about the danger a sharp tongue can do, all
the
talk about the need for harmony, for returning poison with honey, for a
sin-covering eye, is just *talk* among right wing Baha'is. No one fights
dirtier than they when they discover a voice they cannot silence and cannot
refute."
"Paul Johnson has seen all these things, as well, for the past five years.
He
can explain it to you."
Cf. K. Paul Johnson's general reflections on coercive techniques
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/Johnson21.htm
And LaAeterna's method of silencing opponents
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/srb65.htm
Comments on the related techniques of Susan Maneck:
Juan Cole, February 13, 1999:
"It is a very, very, very weird religion. And if anyone is reading
Susan Maneck's absolutely bone-chilling screeds on the
desirability of Heresy Trials and carefulness in Shunning,
they are seeing what it is like at the core of the religion."
"I really am sorry for them and her, since they seem sort of filled with
hate and quite paranoid, yet say they are preaching love, unity and
tolerance. Susan will say, 'may your abdomen be split by lightning
and your guts fall out you filthy heretic whom I wish I could just have
shunned and buried', and then she'll sign herself "warmest" and
slander a university by adding it to her sig line. As if what she is
about has anything at all to do with *universities*!"
FG, February 15, 1999:
"Ms. Maneck's approach appears to me to be always to
shunt the discussion off or back to who said what where when
why how and so on.... The farther back in time the better, since
the person's memory, being human, is bound to be unable to
keep up or to have stocked the evidence needed on his or her
hard drive or find it on dejanews.com. And it then allows her
to claim pretty much anything she wants to while seeming to
have discredited her opponent. Further, she relies on the
tactics of demagoguery knowing they usually prevail and will be
supported by other fundamentalist Bahais. By shrieking
"slander" and referring to others' opinions as "garbage," she is
able to create an emotional atmosphere that essentially negates
whatever the topic or content might be and that allows her to
appear to win what is often a narrowly legalistic point or
interpretation."
"All of this is done, of course, in conjunction with her employing
the more common Bahai techniques of intimidation and
psychological demonization and terrorism."
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/Maneck1.htm
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/technique.htm
This document at
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/technique.htm
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/bahai.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Friday, April 30, 1999 6:38 AM
Subject: Bahai Censorship - arb/trb FAQ
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) for
Alt.Religion.Bahai, Talk.Religion.Bahai
April 30, 1999
This FAQ will be reposted approximately every two weeks.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
People with only web access might want to use www.dejanews.com
www.reference.com or www.newsguy.com They all offer reading and
posting capabilities for people who can't directly access
alt.religion.bahai or talk.religion.bahai and filter out spam.
Alt.religion.bahai and talk.religion.bahai are available on
America Online (AOL) Keyword, Newsgroups, then search for
alt.religion.bahai or talk.religion.bahai
If your ISP does not offer talk.religion.bahai, follow this
news.groupie advice: "If your ISP doesn't have the group shortly,
I suggest that you ask the newsmaster there to add it (Try
news@isp.net, or newsmaster@isp.net) Ask politely. Include
the msg ID of the results posting, and of the newgroup msg."
Dave Cornejo's RESULT posting:
https://x3.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=431106082&CONTEXT=918305125.781648012&hi
tnum=0
David Lawrence's newgroup msg creating talk.religion.bahai:
https://x3.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=434026333&CONTEXT=918304600.713490686&hi
tnum=3
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
NOTE: Not all people agree on the interpretations given below.
Question #1 "Why create arb or t.r.b.?"
ANSWER #1: Because many people believe they experienced or
are continuing to experience censorship when attempting to post to
soc.religion.bahai. See the quotations from Abdul-Baha:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/bahai.htm
ANSWER #2: Because the Bahai writings support free speech and
religious conscience.
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/bahai.htm
ANSWER #3: [fill in the blank according to your own opinion.]
Question #2: "Why do the srb moderators oppose trb?"
ANSWER: Perhaps they'll supply an answer to place here.
(Two years later their NO votes are their only answer.)
Question #3: "Are Bahais opposed to freedom of speech and
conscience?"
ANSWER: Despite glowing words of love and support for
other people's opinions, despite the Universal House of Justice
stating at least publicly it is not opposed to an unmoderated forum,
the record of actual behavior by Bahais and on soc.religion.bahai
and the experience of many Bahais and people who have left the
Bahai Faith give serious reason for concern.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chronology of major events: talk.religion.bahai
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
January 17, 1997: The 1st proposal for talk.religion.bahai was
submitted to news.announce.newgroups.
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/1stRFD.htm
Early March 1997: Mark Towfiq, chairman of the BCCA, the
Bahai Computer and Communication Association, posts to
three Bahai-only mailing lists a call for Bahais to vote NO
against talk.religion.bahai.
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/Towfiq.htm
March 1997: soc.religion.bahai bans all discussion of
talk.religion.bahai from its newsgroup. This ban is still in
effect more than a year and a half later.
March 31, 1997: The 1st proposal was defeated 157 YES to
691 NO.
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/1stRESULT.htm
April 3, 1997: Jonathan Grobe, a non-Bahai, creates
alt.religion.bahai.
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/arb.htm
October 14, 1997: The Universal House of Justice releases
a message stating it has no objection to unmoderated
newsgroups:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/UHJ1.htm
November 1997: At a time when discussion was highly
favorable in support of talk.religion.bahai, the BCCA deprives
FG of access to the private Bahai-only mailing
list bahai-discuss and all of its other lists, inflaming Bahai
passions against trb. See bahai-discuss archived files and
correspondence between FG and the BCCA
committee:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/archive.htm
December 19, 1997: The Universal House of Justice releases
a message that suggests it does not understand the nature of
Usenet interest polling:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/UHJ2.htm
January 12, 1998: The 2nd proposal for talk.religion.bahai was
submitted.
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/2ndRFD.htm
February 22, 1998: The 2nd proposal was defeated 109 YES
to 65 NO.
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/2ndRESULT.htm
May 25, 1998: srb bans all messages from FG
that contain his signature file:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/srb23.htm
September 9,1998: America Online (AOL) places a
Bahai-inspired TOS against FG; AOL
removes the TOS after considering both sides of the
issue, i.e., Bahai messages attacking and threatening
him and the experience of others:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/AOL.htm
September 14, 1998: soc.religion.bahai extends its ban on
FG's signature file to include all signature
files and URLs from all posters, allowing only email addresses
and the name of the poster:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/srbban.htm
October 14, 1998: Soc.religion.bahai moderator Bill Hyman
backbites and casts aspersions on proponent Ron House
and attempts to undermine the new support for the
"neutral" RFD:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/srb67.htm
December 3, 1998: The Call For Votes (CFV) was posted
to news.announce.newgroups and news.groups for the
3rd interest poll for talk.religion.bahai.
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/3rdRFD.htm
December 7, 1998: Bahai scholar Susan Maneck begins
her NO vote campaign on AOL and alt.religion.bahai.
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/Maneck1.htm
January 10, 1999:
Talk.religion.bahai passes 218: 63.
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/3rdRESULT.htm
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
For past discussion of censorship on soc.religion.bahai and
other issues, including censorship within the Bahai community,
see the website The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
This document at https://members.tripod.com/~FG/FAQ.htm
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/bahai.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai or Newsgroups
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Friday, April 30, 1999 6:45 AM
Subject: Bahai Censorship - On AOL
In August of 1998 I took out an account on AOL. It quickly
became apparent that my fellow Bahais were using AOL in
such a way as to further withhold knowledge and information
from AOL's more than 14 million members.
It appeared to me that there were four main issues.
Alt.religion.bahai, which had been created in April of 1997
and which had had more than 20,000 messages posted
to it, was not even offered in the list of AOL newsgroups.
AOL personnel with which I spoke over the phone were
very puzzled why it wasn't and even implied that some
action would have had to have been taken to keep it from
automatically being picked up and added to their newsgroups.
It took more than a month of strenuous effort to get AOL
to add alt.religion.bahai.
On the AOL Bahai Forums it became apparent that Bahais
were manipulating and controlling information by NOT making
it available, by essentially preserving the frozen, non-functioning
state of affairs or the status quo:
1. The Libraries were not accepting new uploads for others
then to download and read.
2. The list of Newsgroups on the Main Menu for Bahai offered
only soc.religion.bahai with no mention of alt.religion.bahai,
or talk.religion.bahai once it was created in January of 1999.
Coupled with soc.religion.bahai's suppression of all mention
of alt.religion.bahai or talk.religion.bahai, this prevents people
from even hearing of their existence.
3. The available links for Web Sites on the Main Menu for Bahai
did not offered my website The Bahai Faith & Religious
Freedom of Conscience, though it has to be one of the most
visited sites on the Bahai Faith with more than 7,000 hits since
May 1998.
As the months went by, my repeated attempts to improve these
deficiencies met with greater and greater opposition from the
Bahai fundamentalists on AOL. Similiarly, my requests, beginning
in August of 1998, that the Forum Leader, Mark Foster, who no
one had seen for months, resign, for derilection of duty, were
increasingly opposed while various excuses were offered for his
absence. Not until talk.religion.bahai was passed five months
later in January 1999 did he suddenly reappear only to begin
immediately reporting absolutely EVERY message I posted to
AOL as a TOS. It quickly became clear to me that he was
back in order to target and build a case against me to have me
suspended from AOL. My account was then temporarily suspended
on three different occasions and finally terminated March 6, 1999.
Of the four issues, only two have partially been remedied.
1. Alt.religion.bahai and now talk.religion.bahai are available
under AOL's Keyword Newsgroups, Expert Add.
2. The Libraries are accepting some uploads, though Foster banned
the 15+ megabytes I uploaded in late February of my entire
archive of discussion for talk.religion.bahai and which is at least
available on my website. It's obvious Foster is finding pretexts for
suppressing further uploads.
While Foster has claimed since mid-January that alt.religion.bahai
and talk.religion.bahai would be added to the Main Menu under
Newsgroups, he continued to make excuses for it not happening.
As of March 9, 1999 they were not yet listed under Newsgroups
along with soc.religion.bahai.
All of these factors, coupled with Mark Foster's abuse of his
position as Forum Leader and his harassing and targetting of
dissenting voices, not only mine, leaves no doubt that he and
other Bahais, including some among the Bahai Administration,
are involved in censoring discourse on AOL.
For an instance of "back-channel" email coercion on AOL see
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/AOL.htm
For an instance of Foster's double standard handling
fundamentalist Bahais see Susan Maneck's accusations on
AOL against me of "slander" and references to my views as
"garbage":
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/Maneck1.htm
The immediate pretext for terminating my account, according
to the AOL official with whom I spoke on the phone, was that
I had pointed out in a newly created Folder called Censorship that I
and other AOL members had requested a Folder entitled Bahai
Censorship and thereby undermined the authority of the Forum
Leader....
In closing let me add that AOL personnel are extremely uninformed
about the Bahai Faith, especially its practice of censorship, and its
ability to exploit the TOS system....
Half a megabyte of messages documenting Bahai censorship
on AOL may be found at
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/AOL.htm
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/bahai.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai or Newsgroups
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Friday, April 30, 1999 6:46 AM
Subject: Bahai Censorship - UHJ's Betrayal of Baha'u'llah
From: FG <FG@hotmail.com>
To: UHJ <secretariat@bwc.org>; Letters to Editor <letters@nytimes.com>;
bahai-faith @ makelist.com <bahai-faith@makelist.com>
Subject: To UHJ July 24, 1998
Date: Friday, July 24, 1998 9:03 PM
July 24,1998
Dear Members of the Universal House of Justice:
As a Bahai, I am saddened by the news of the execution of yet
another Bahai in Iran. However, the immediate public statements
made by Firuz Kazemzadeh of the National Spiritual Assembly
of the United States, reminiscent of Robert Henderson's piece in
The New York Times on January 13th of this year, appear equally
lamentable for their blatant hypocrisy: "We had hoped that President
Khatami's assertions about freedom, justice and the rule of law in Iran
would apply to the Baha'is of that country.... We urge the international
community to protest vigorously Mr. Rowhani's killing and to seek
justice for the beleaguered Iranian Baha'i community."
The tragic loss of Bahai lives in Iran and the subsequent exploitation
of their deaths by Bahai spokesmen, often in the American media,
always courting the President and other members of the government,
has become a predictable pattern rendered intolerable in the context
of continuing and pervasive Bahai censorship and denial of human
and civil rights in the United States and elsewhere. Such incidents as
I queried you about in my unanswered email of March 31, 1997,
available on my Web site, regarding the crushing of the magazine
Dialogue, the resignations of a number of scholars from the Bahai
Encyclopedia, the attacks on the listserv known as Talisman I at
Indiana University, the harassing and blacklisting of many individuals,
Bahai and non-Bahai, suggest profoundly deep-seated problems within
the Bahai community and administration.
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/To-UHJ1.htm
To these incidents must now be added the apparent conspiracy for more
than a year and a half of the Bahai Computer and Communications
Committee (BCCA), under the chairmanship of Mark Towfiq, to defeat
twice now, along with the collusion of other Bahais, the creation of an
unmoderated newsgroup on the Bahai Faith which would be known as
talk.religion.bahai. You may find extensive documentation for all of
these violations of the basic human rights of many Bahais and
non-Bahais on my Web site, "The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom
of Conscience": https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm
Because the third interest poll for talk.religion.bahai on Usenet is
approaching, after August 28th, I ask you again to investigate the
BCCA and its depriving me of access last November from all private
Bahai-only mailing lists at a crucial moment just when the tide of
discussion was going very much in favor of the newsgroup, noted by
many observers. I also ask whether you supported or were involved in
that decision? The relevant files can be found on my Web site under
Bahai-Discuss Archives.
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/archive.htm
Similarly, I would like to know whether your institution or the BCCA has
approved of or advocated the recent ban of my email signature file by
the moderators of soc.religion.bahai, as well as their complete ban for
more than a year and a half now on all discussion regarding
talk.religion.bahai.
The prevailing atmosphere of suppression of free speech and
religious conscience that now characterizes the Bahai Faith cannot
but call into question the honesty of many members of the Bahai
administration and perhaps the institutions themselves.
I ask once more whether censorship is allowed in the Bahai Faith and
what passages of the Bahai Writings support it, what are the "rules," if
you will, of Bahai censorship?
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/bahai.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai or Newsgroups
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Friday, April 30, 1999 6:47 AM
Subject: Bahai Censorship - soc.religion.bahai
Robert J. Pease, December 5, 1998:
"I support your efforts to expose SRB as a fundamentalist group."
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/srb84.htm
Kent Johnson:
"It turns my stomach that they call themselves a Baha'i Group
while doing these things so obviously partisan and consciously
unjust."
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/srb61.htm
Ron House:
"I think the following is a clear case of malicious
rejection of an article by the worst of the moderators of
soc.religion.bahai."
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/srb53.htm
Timothy Mulligan:
"(Sigh) Fred, I'm beginning to think you're right about those
SRB moderators."
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/srb59.htm
RobertNik:
"these guys are pompous arseholes IMHO."
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/srb54.htm
Bruce Burrill:
"What are Baha'i afraid of?"
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/srb60.htm
Zuteflute:
"Frankly I could not see anything in the letter I wrote which
would prompt someone to ask whether or not I am a Baha'i."
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/srb50.htm
YU ZIR:
"But as an outsider, I can perhaps see the point Fred Glaysher
is making, and which point none of SRB's defenders seem to
address."
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/srb46.htm
Matthew Cromer:
"The current moderators regulate the contents--posting articles
which they agree with...."
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/srb47.htm
Kavosh Soltani, December 9, 1998:
"So many Bahais on these forums
have shown to be ready to forget logic and reason, ignore
clear evidence and Word of God, and come up with exactly the
same line of tired and inaccurate excuses and arguments to
justify their position, that it can not be a simple coincidence."
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/srb77.htm
Shakti3, December 4, 1998:
"Sorry to hear that you've been surpressed on srb. Your comments
were alway very "right on." Altho it does not surprise me one bit,
seeing the way these newsgroups operate."
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/Ex7.htm
Harold Shinsato:
"It seems like there is an oppression over the Baha'i Faith."
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/srb33.htm
Steve Tomljenovic, December 3, 1998:
"The moderators are a bit overzealous at times. Since all the
controversy started, it has gotten worse."
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/srb79.htm
Laeterna:
"To say I was flabberghasted at this type of "moderating" was
putting it mildly indeed."
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/censored2.htm
Guy Macon"
"Please explain which portion of the charter the following
post violates."
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/censored1.htm
Robin Peters:
"I think you're to be commended for your persistence in the
face of consistent censorship."
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/srb43.htm
jgoldberg:
"I refuse to post on soc.religion.bahai because of the arbitrary and
mean-spirited manner of censorship practiced by the moderators. "
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/srb57.htm
Ruletherod, November 17, 1998:
"Too much damage has already been done in the name and to
the name of Baha'u'llah by right-wing administrative bullies,
linear-thinking apologists, and doctrinaire-fundamentalists. You
can't just blame it all on the critics."
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/srb76.htm
Many other similar messages may be found on my web site under
soc.religion.bahai censorship.
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/srb.htm
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/bahai.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai or Newsgroups
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Friday, April 30, 1999 6:50 AM
Subject: Bahai Censorship - Bullying & UHJ's Fundamentalism
I'm alarmed at the recent Bahai attempts, by the troll
Gyr Falcon and others, at character assassination, ridicule,
and generally portraying me and others as disturbed individuals.
I have never claimed to be perfect. At times I have
apologized to Bahais, Muslims, and other non-Bahais
when I felt, or was convinced, that I was wrong or had
spoken unfairly. I find the constant technique to portray
me as a megalomanic or paranoid quite offensive.
Similarly, the tactic of accusing me of spam for posting
my opinions is calculated to discredit the validity of my and
others' concerns regarding censorship in Bahai forums and
has also been used on AOL. Such accusations reveal the
frustration that Bahai fundamentalists apparently feel over
my having found ways of enduring and resisting the onslaught of
their concerted attacks, while preserving a historical record on
a markedly ephermeral medium for innocent Bahais and
non-Bahais....
Fair-minded Bahai and non-Bahai observers may
judge for themselves whether my and others' allegations of
censorship are valid by reading the record preserved under
"Assorted Controversial Documents" on my website at
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/bahai.htm
As further corroboration that I am not the only person
concerned with the intolerance and censorship that has
overtaken the Bahai Faith, I recommend Professor Juan Cole's
new book Modernity & the Millennium: The Genesis of the
Bahai Faith in the Nineteenth-Century Middle East, available
through Columbia University Press or Amazon.com at
https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0231110812/o/qid=924015204/sr=2-1/002
-1823748-4014252
In his conclusion, which would never have passed the
system of Bahai "review" that the UHJ imposes on all
publications brought out under its tight control, Professor Cole,
of the Department of History at The University of Michigan,
quite accurately identifies the distortions that have been
wreaked upon Baha'u'llah's Teachings:
"Some contemporary leaders of the Baha'i Faith have given
answers increasingly similar to those of fundamentalists,
stressing scriptural literalism, patriachy, theocracy,
censorship, intellectual intolerance, and denying key
democratic values. While the values of the nineteenth-
century Baha'i movement, which was far more tolerant,
continue to exist as a minority view, by the late 1990s a
different set of emphases prevailed." (196)
He himself and many others, as evidence under the
"Assorted Controversial Documents," have suffered at the
hands of the fundamentalists who have taken control of the
religion:
"The rise of academic Baha'i scholarship has caused
tension in the community, whose present-day leadership
tends to be fundamentalist and antiliberal in orientation,
and this has led to pressure on a number of prominent
academics to resign or dissociate themselves from the
movement." (201)
These same forces of fundamentalist orthodoxy are
evident on AOL, talk.religion.bahai, and alt.religion.bahai
for impartial viewers to witness. They will be evident
to all perceptive observers of whatever forum Bahais may
be trying to control and influence.
As a Bahai for more than 23 years, I myself have always
found especially repulsive the manner in which Bahai
fundamentalists attempt to manipulate the institutions and
leaders of government, the United Nations, and public
opinion, while pretending to values they deride in private
or at Bahai-only meetings.
Ultimately, it is the Bahai Universal House of Justice that
is responsible for the perversion and corruption of such clear
and elevating teachings of Baha'u'llah and Abdul-Baha as
the following:
"These are effectual and sufficient proofs that the
conscience of man is sacred and to be respected; and that
liberty thereof produces widening of ideas, amendment of
morals, improvement of conduct, disclosure of the secrets
of the contingent world."
Abdul-Baha, A Traveler's Narrative, 91.
The UHJ is also in the end responsible for inciting Bahai fanatics
and fundamentalists to attack other Bahais and non-Bahais
merely for their views expressed on and off line in free forums
of public discussion.
I recommend all newcomers to these matters read
"The Bahai Technique":
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/technique.htm
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/bahai.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai or Newsgroups
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Friday, April 30, 1999 7:09 AM
Subject: Re: Susan: the academic outcast
Comments on the related techniques of Susan Maneck:
Juan Cole, February 13, 1999:
"It is a very, very, very weird religion. And if anyone is reading
Susan Maneck's absolutely bone-chilling screeds on the
desirability of Heresy Trials and carefulness in Shunning,
they are seeing what it is like at the core of the religion."
"I really am sorry for them and her, since they seem sort of filled with
hate and quite paranoid, yet say they are preaching love, unity and
tolerance. Susan will say, 'may your abdomen be split by lightning
and your guts fall out you filthy heretic whom I wish I could just have
shunned and buried', and then she'll sign herself "warmest" and
slander a university by adding it to her sig line. As if what she is
about has anything at all to do with *universities*!"
FG, February 15, 1999:
"Ms. Maneck's approach appears to me to be always to
shunt the discussion off or back to who said what where when
why how and so on.... The farther back in time the better, since
the person's memory, being human, is bound to be unable to
keep up or to have stocked the evidence needed on his or her
hard drive or find it on dejanews.com. And it then allows her
to claim pretty much anything she wants to while seeming to
have discredited her opponent. Further, she relies on the
tactics of demagoguery knowing they usually prevail and will be
supported by other fundamentalist Bahais. By shrieking
"slander" and referring to others' opinions as "garbage," she is
able to create an emotional atmosphere that essentially negates
whatever the topic or content might be and that allows her to
appear to win what is often a narrowly legalistic point or
interpretation."
"All of this is done, of course, in conjunction with her employing
the more common Bahai techniques of intimidation and
psychological demonization and terrorism."
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/Maneck1.htm
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/bahai.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai or Newsgroups
Mr Mahdi wrote in message <19990430012924.10949.00000381@ng-cm1.aol.com>...
>Susan has been kicked out of several institutions because of her
controverisal
>academic views that many academics regard as "herectical." Susan is known
for
>responding or "rebutting" with an insult rather than an answer. Her
absolute
>lack of independent and enlighten thought shows her inability to carry a
>serious intellectual conversation. I am amazed that an "educated" women
can
>have the most simple-minded easy-to-rebut responses in the world. She
lacks
>the ability to debate. Susan is an expert in insulting people, thinking
people
>as inferior if they dont have a PhD, etc. Susan is like a walking
reference
>book, all she knows how to is just repeat what she learned. She cant go
any
>further and give ensight or an enlighten explanation of what she knows.
Thats
>why you see Susan attack people with independent thought like Fred and a
few
>other people. Susan is the poster-child and spokesperson for rigid
>fundamentalists views and beliefs of her bigotted fundamentalist peers.
Susan
>will continue to avoid critical questions and comments, she will continue
to
>answer with insults and lies, etc. This is Susan. I have a saying that
some
>of the most dumbest people on earth have PhDs, and Susan is one of them.
You
>wonder how can a person who knows so much understands so little. You
wonder
>why cant all that knowldge give her the ability to debate and have
independent
>and enlighten thought and not a person who believes the hype when it suits
>their selfish agendas.
>Mahdi
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Friday, April 30, 1999 7:16 AM
Subject: Bahai NSA Chairman Steals from Deceased Widow
FYIDismissal of Judge James F. Nelson, Chair of the National Spiritual
Assembly
of the Baha'is of the United States, in April, 1999.April 6, 1999
Delegates to the 1999 Baha'i National ConventionBeloved Friends,
We deeply regret the necessity of informing you that James F. Nelson has
been guilty of gross negligence in the performance of his duties as a member
of the National Spiritual Assembly and that, although he has expressed his
profound regret for the related occurrences, and has effected full
restitution of the damage done, he has felt impelled, by his awareness of
the high responsibility of the post in which he has been serving, to tender
his resignation from the membership of the National Spiritual Assembly, and
the National Spiritual Assembly has accepted this resignation.
At this painful moment the National Spiritual Assembly offers James Nelson
its loving support and prayers.
NATIONAL SPIRITUAL ASSEMBLY OF THE BAHA'IS OF THE UNITED STATES[signed]
Robert C. HendersonSecretary-General
cc: Continental Counselors serving tthe United States
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CommentaryDate: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 09:14:15 -0700From: Steven Scholl
Subject: NelsonTo: talisman@umich.edu
Here is all I know about the situation.
Jim Nelson was helping an elderly Baha'i in Pasadena with her finances. I
believe he had some power to sign checks from her account for paying bills,
etc. She told Jim that she wanted her payment to the huquq [the 19% tax on
some income to be paid to the Universal House of Justice in Haifa, Israel
according to Baha'i law] to be set up as an endowment rather than being a
lump sum payment. On her death, Jim placed the huquq funds from her accounts
into a new account under his name. This led to protests from the estate's
executor and prompted the NSA to go on the war path with claims of
wrongdoing. I do not know if the executor of the estate is a Baha'i or not.
Since the huquq funds would be directed to Haifa, one can imagine why
[National Spiritual Assembly secretary-general Robert C.] Henderson would be
upset by Jim's action. Henderson has been accused in the past of
mismanagement of funds, of hijacking contributions earmarked to the World
Centre into a special NSA account, skimming off the interest and then at the
end of the year sending the principle along to Haifa. But this is purely
personal speculation on my part.
This is the only thing I have heard in terms of "wrongdoing" on Nelson's
part, whereas Henderson's letter to the delegates refers to "related
occurrences" in the plural. As for restitution, I understand that the money
never went anywhere and, in the end, the funds were handled according to the
wishes of the deceased Baha'i in the way Jim was planning to set up in the
first place.
So, what does this all indicate? My take is that for years there has been
rivalries and factions on the NSA, especially between the West Coast Gang
led by the Nelsons (with Bill Davis and Juana Conrad) vs. the
Henderson/Kazemzadeh block. I have heard that in their rebuke to Nelson the
NSA refered to his "careless" behavior, while in the letter to the delegates
they refer to "gross negligence in the performance of duties." My view is
that if the NSA was sincere in their concern for Nelson and his spiritual
growth, they would have simply accepted his resignation and informed the
delegates that after years of service, Judge Nelson has resigned for health
or personal reasons. The letter to the delegates seems to me to be a blatant
campaign maneuver. It seems aimed at (1) publicly humiliating Jim Nelson and
(2) helping guide the delegates in their voting for a candidate from the
Henderson/Kazemzadeh Good Old Boys Network rather than from the now suspect
Nelson Network.
As someone who has dealt with Henderson and Kazemzadeh in the past and had
them use lies and slander in their attacks on my beliefs and behavior, this
latest outburst is not at all surprising and fits their modus operandi
perfectly. That is to say, the timing and the pure sleeziness of this
blatant political manuvering fits with their history of self-promotion
combined with vicious personal attacks against those who might threaten
their grip of power over the American Baha'i community.
Having been absent from these Baha'i cultural wars now for several years, I
do find it fascinating that since many of us old "heretics" have either left
the faith, lost rights, or gone into the grand occultation of self-imposed
exile and inactivity, the leadership, at a loss for enemies, seems intent on
feeding on each other.
Needless to say, it will be interesting how the delegates respond to this
news, whether they will back Henderson and Kazemzadeh by voting in one of
their cronies or protest this action by voting in a West coast candidate.
Steve
-----------------------------------------------------Date: 4-14-99
To: talisman@umich.eduFrom: Juan ColeSubject: Re: NSA elections
Actually, early twentieth century Baha'is under `Abdul-Baha had perfectly
democratic elections, and were instructed to do it that way by `Abdul-Baha.
During WW I when there was conflict over whether to support the war effort
or adopt a pacifist stance, hawks like Mason Remey organized a campaign for
the NSA in 1917 in which they captured it and reversed the previous pacifist
policy! Older Baha'is spoke of the times when Republican and Democratic
Baha'is wouldn't speak with one another.
The problem with the current situation is not merely that the voting records
of the NSA members are completely unknown. It is that the activities and
policies of the NSA as a whole are almost completely unknown! What exactly
do these people do? What policies have they made? What effect have the
policies had? Have they been good for the growth of the community,
numerically and spiritually? Without knowing the answer to this question,
how can the delegates even begin to vote intelligently? Though, as we have
seen, the very rules of the elections leave them with little
potentialimpact.
We know that there were about 48,000 adult Baha'is with good addresses in
the US in 1978. There are now about 60,000. In the meantime 12,000 Iranians
immigrated. This means that there has been no growth in over twenty years.
*None*. Of course, hundreds if not a few thousands of people have come in
during the past two decades, but enormous numbers of them have gone right
back out. Would any CEO who had not increased his earnings a single penny
over twenty years be reappointed by the board?
The exclusivistic policies of Mr. Henderson, who is frankly mean-spirited,
have contributed enormously to this Great Stagnation. He was the one who
cracked down on Dialogue magazine in such a nasty way. He bullied Baha'i
travel agents in 1991, for the Lord knows what reward from the corrupt
Corporate Travel Consultants. He agitated behind the scenes for a crackdown
on talisman@indiana.edu. He has chased travel teachers out of the country,
seeing them as an electoral threat should they become successful. I have no
idea about the propriety of Jim Nelson's book-keeping practices, but surely
for Henderson to publicly smear him after Jim served on the NSA 1971-1999,
in circumstances where Nelson cannot even publicly defend himself, is the
height of sleaze. Henderson has arranged for himself to live rent free free
in a 9-bedroom mansion (having the Bourgeois studio knocked down to build
it, against UHJ instructions) with free Baha'i maids and gardeners, and his
main business seems to be bullying Baha'is into silence behind the scenes.
And I fully acknowledge that he is probably acting rationally given the way
the Baha'i system is structured.
So, I think all these things are related: the fact that the Baha'i faith in
the US has been going nowhere fast for decades; the fact that the electoral
system seems to elect the ambitious and greedy (and paranoid) to the top
offices; the fact that even initially upright people are made perpetual
incumbents, exposing them to the temptations of absolute power held for
decades and corrupting them; the fact that the electoral system provides an
incentive for the incumbents to slap down and chase out potential
competitors; the fact that it would not be in the incumbents' interest for
the faith to expand, become more open, attract a lot of new voters who might
rock the boat.
Term limits would go a long way toward solving all these problems. In fact,
why not have staggered elections for 4-year terms? You could elect 5 members
in 2000 and 4 in 2002. People who don't serve as long as Nelson did might
not become tempted to act high-handedly. They wouldn't face reelection and
so would have no reason to fear being unseated by active young folks.
Counselor Fred Schechter, one of the people who falsely accused me, once
told a friend of mine that anyone who becomes active in the faith will be
attacked (by the faith's officials, it is implied). We hadn't at the time
realized that Schechter intended to *act* on this observation!
This is a dysfunctional system, folks. There are ways in which it destroyed
Dan Jordan (forcing him to live a lie and to resort to secret trysts), Allen
Ward, and now Jim Nelson--not to mention the spiritual harm it has wreaked
on the Baby Boom intellectuals who were enticed in with promises of
tolerance and justice (!!!).
When Glenford Mitchell had become a huge pain in the ass as NSA secretary
and was finally elected off it to the UHJ, everyone breathed a big sigh of
relief. And when Henderson came in, the word was that he was a good guy, and
we were all relieved. And then in a few short years he demonstrated that he
was an even bigger pain in the ass than Mitchell had been. Even dumping
Henderson wouldn't solve the problem. The *system* creates the Hendersons
and the Nelsons. If anyone cared about the fortunes of the faith as opposed
to the size of their marble offices, they would fix the system.
cheers Juan
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Return to DocumentsTo Baha'i StudiesTo Talisman
<jricole@my-dejanews.com> wrote in message
news:7focup$gi9$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com...
> Documents and discussions regarding the recent dismissal of the chairmanof
> the National Spiritual Assembly of the Baha'is of the US for 'financial
> improprieties' may be found at:>
> https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/bhnsa.htm>> cheers
Juan>>> --
> Juan Cole, History, U of Michigan
> https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai.htm
> Buy *Modernity and the Millennium: The Genesis of the Baha'i Faith* at:
> https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN%3D0231110812/002-4036721-8058448>
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Friday, April 30, 1999 7:30 AM
Subject: Re: An Example of Bahai Censorship on AOL
This is all sheer duplicity. Foster targets people
on AOL. See....
https://ccwf.cc.utexas.edu/~saf/bahai/docs/hikmat.html
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/AOL.htm
https://209.185.176.10/~FG/AOLcensorship.txt
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/Maneck1.htm
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/bahai.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai or Newsgroups
Mark A. Foster wrote in message
<19990427114940.24242.00000010@ng-ch1.aol.com>...
>Mahdi,
>
>When violates TOS, I send them a warning. If they persist, I report them to
>TOS. That is what you are referring to.
>
>I realize you probably don't believe me about the Baha'i Faith Forum being
a
>"support" forum, so you might want to check with the manager of the Muslim
>Forum. He will tell you the same thing.
>
>The religion forums exist almost exclusively for the host religions (and
for
>non-members to post non-argumentative, non-proselytizing questions).
>
>Mark A. Foster
>owner@sociologist.com
>RBCF Mark (on AOL only)
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