From: Ron House[SMTP:house@usq.edu.au]
Sent: Sunday, January 03, 1999 11:51 PM
To: FG
Cc: Dave Cornejo; Frank Baker; Fran Baker; John Walker
Subject: Re: Fw: Automatic reply to your test message.
FG wrote:
> Dave,
>
> I've hesitated to bring this message that was falsely
> posted using my name and email address to your attention.
> I've decided I should let you know about it in case you've heard of
> it or it affects the poll in some way I don't realize.
I had a reply from a uni in England over what seems to be an identical
message with my address as false author.
--
Ron House house@usq.edu.au
You can only be right if you have the courage to be wrong.
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Monday, January 04, 1999 7:52 AM
Subject: Re: Censorship on soc.religion.bahai
Kavosh Soltani wrote in message <76k41b$icq$13@remarQ.com>...
>rlittle33@my-dejanews.com wrote in message
><74p4oh$ps6$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
rlittle wrote:
>>Firstly, moderators are "hired" (actually, they do this
>>on their own time, using their own personal computers for
>>no material compensation) to enforce a charter which was
>>voted into existence through a democratic election.
The present "charter" was never voted on. It was imposed
during the fall of 1996 by the "moderators" emphasizing in
a new and major way covenant breaking and the "moderators"
right to suppress it.
Most people on Usenet as well as most Bahais do not realize this
important fact about soc.religion.bahai's "charter."
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm
On alt.religion.bahai and AOL, Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Monday, January 04, 1999 8:59 AM
Subject: Demagoguery - The Bahai Technique
During the last year and a half, a number of observers have noted
several common methods many Bahais use to avoid various issues
or discredit people who hold opinions other than their own:
FG, May 12, 1992:
"The Baha'i Faith has become very oppressive and manipulative of
the individual. That to me is merely a statement of fact, as I
have experienced it, for nearly sixteen years now [over 22]. The usual
stratagem in dealing with anyone who would express his conscience
in good faith is to pretend the Cause is above any kind of
criticism whatsoever while intimating that anyone who would speak
honestly must have something wrong with him, i.e., his spiritual
life isn't what it should be, he doesn't understand the nature of
unity, or he's accused of trying to obtain power for himself,
which at times seems merely a calculated way of discrediting the
person, and so on. Another common strategy used to acquire
control over the individual is to humor the person by letting him
pour himself out, etc., and then self-righteously giving him the
Truth."
Ron House, November 14, 1997:
"I know what you mean. I've found over the years that
there is a technique used by traditional Baha'is and
others to squash dissension: harry the dissenter so
much he says something intemperate, then point out
how 'loving' and 'compassionate' they are and how
nasty the dissenter is. The trouble is that this
technique works, so I've been making a conscious
effort not to fall for it. Also, when they get the
dissenter discouraged and miserable enough, he
invariably makes a slip-up sooner or later that they
can REALLY let loose the venom over. IMHO, they did
this to you when you misread Sharon's intentions.
At any other time, they would overlook faults, as
Baha'u'llah says, but when they're in this mode
they go for the jugular. Very sad."
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/House2.htm
FG, June 1998:
"Some of the most striking methods demonstrated repeatedly by
many Bahais during the last year and a half of discussion about
an unmoderated newsgroup is their refusal to listen and respond to
the criticisms of those who are in favor of talk.religion.bahai,
ignoring their concerns, never responding analytically to their
messages and reasoning and logic and evidence, attacking them
through character assassination and ad hominem, ganging up
on individuals, and "circling the wagons" around every action
of the srb moderators or others who are opposed to
talk.religion.bahai."
"More than twenty different people on my web site have posted messages
explaining their experience with srb censorship yet many srb Bahais
NEVER address their concerns. Ignoring such charges will not make
them go away. NO ONE has to "try" to link the trb interest poll with
censorship on srb; the moderators themselves have done that by
suppressing droves of people for years. There are many people who
believe such suppression is part and parcel of the Bahai
community as it exists today. A YES vote need not necessarily
support such a belief. There are other reasons Bahais might vote
YES."
Fran Baker, May 1998:
"Just have to say that in my experience this is a common
technique of manipulative people in general; it is especially
effective with thoughtful people who are willing to see both
sides of things, i.e., their own fault. I consider this brow-beating
technique to be a form of abuse. The only way to deal with it is
to call them on it every time and to refuse to let yourself be beat
up, i.e., not to do your part of the "tango." This can be very hard
to do, but it works.You can break this pattern in a personal
relationship. I don't know whether it's possible when a group
acts this way. Very scary."
Dr. Juan Cole, June 12, 1998:
"Let me ask you why in the world you think that I would risk my professional
reputation by publicly stating falsehoods? ...The very technique of the
more glaze-eyed among these people is to unbearably bully a Baha'i whom
they don't like, use unjustified threats of declaring him or her a CB to
silence the individual, and if the person will not be silenced, then to
depend upon the gullibility of the Baha'is in refusing to listen to any
victim's story because, of course, the Baha'i institutions are infallible
and divinely guided and could never do anything wrong. It is a perfect
racket."
"Of course, this technique of making liberals go away has been enormously
successful, and ex-Baha'i liberals have no credibility with the remaining
Baha'is nor do most of them have any energy to continue to make a case,
either to the Baha'is or the outside world, for the incredible abuses that
go on inside this organization ostensibly committed to tolerance!"
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/Cole10.htm
K. Paul Johnson, September 15, 1998:
"If that principle [people are innocent until proven guilty]
were followed by Baha'i administration and individuals in
their condemnations of their fellow believers, I
would have very little to complain about regarding Baha'i
affairs. But character assassination by innuendo is the
preferred way of dealing with anything remotely resembling
dissidence. Seems like that's exactly what you're doing to Juan
Cole in your message. Saying I don't want to know what you've
"got" on him, thus attacking me but insinuating you have some
awful proof of unspecified guilt on his part. If that's not
character assassination by innuendo, what is?"
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/Johnson18.htm
K. Paul Johnson, December 30, 1998:
"It seems to me that part of what Fred calls "the Baha'i
technique" is in fact far broader. It's the technique of all
defenders of some religious orthodoxy or another in response to
criticism of their beliefs or organization. And you're engaging
in it here. Some principles by which it can be discerned:
1. Show scornful contempt for all criticisms, and the individuals
making them. This has the advantage of furthering
group solidarity and encouraging believers to regard criticism as
contemptible. It also tells them "This will happen to you, too,
if you step out of line." Unfortunately, it has the
disadvantage of saying to observers, "We true believers are a
bunch of hostile, sarcastic nasties who don't care at all what
people in the outside world think of us, since we're too busy
bashing critics to worry about the impression our tone or
attitude makes." (See the Eckists or Scientologists or
fundamentalist Christians on Usenet for real virtuosity in
this regard.)
2. Personalize, personalize, personalize. If you can
relentlessly focus attention on the individual(s) raising
difficult issues, you just might keep yourself and others
from facing the issues themselves. Not facing the crucial issues
is of utmost priority.
3. Polarize at all possible opportunities. Never give an inch.
Don't acknowledge even a single point that an "enemy" makes, or
modify your vigilant tone for an instant. Prove that you're a
"spiritual warrior" for the "true faith." Kindness is weakness,
forbearance is never appropriate when God's on your side."
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/Johnson22.htm
Gibro28W, October 12, 1998:
"In summary, the biggest problem, as I see it,
is that most Baha'is don't take criticism seriously--they tune it out as
"negative" or "harmful to spiritual growth." This selfish
attitude is very stupid. First of all, Baha'is entice people to join them.
When they do, they indoctrinate them until they think like the group. But as
soon as a red flare of doubt goes up in the convert's mind, they're cordoned
off by the group and reminded of their "spiritual" obligations in the name
of Baha'u'llah or the "Covenant." If left unresolved and doubt gives vent to
prolonged criticism, the convert is sent packing or is kicked out. What
we have here is a broken family that had failed to truly listen to the needs
of its members in the first place.
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/srb73.htm
Barthaman on September 14, 1998:
"Baha'i dissenters, more or less, are wounded souls abandoned
by their fathers,so-to-speak. They have been cast out and
dismissed or shunned without having had a fair hearing. Consider
their pain when the rest of their "family" dismisses them too.
Can you know what it's like to be accused of heresy and shunned
following a sincere intellectual conflict (inspired by doubt)--
after you've sacrificed years in devoted service to your religion?
Can you comprehend their sense of betrayal and injustice? This is
why disillusioned believers leave their religions each year--while
some still hang around, banging on the door now and then, demanding
a refund for their lost youth. In time they will have to move on,
however, writing the Baha'i Faith off as another lesson in fraud.
Mock these people all you want--but for the grace of God, the next
dissenter could be you. Don't be too confident, my friend."
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/srb66.htm
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Cf. K. Paul Johnson's general reflections on coercive techniques
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/Johnson21.htm
And LaAeterna's method of silencing opponents
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/srb65.htm
This document at
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/technieque.htm
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm
On alt.religion.bahai and AOL, Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Monday, January 04, 1999 5:38 PM
To: Dave Cornejo
Subject: RESULTS?
Dave,
I've tried not to bother you knowing you had accepted
handling the poll on the condition of extra time. People
are emailing me and wondering what's going on. It
has been ten days now. I'd appreciate your just letting
people know the RESULTS as soon as possible.
Thanks, again, for volunteering and contributing your
time and effort on such a volatile proposal....
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm
On alt.religion.bahai and AOL, Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: Dave Cornejo[SMTP:dave@dogwood.com]
Sent: Monday, January 04, 1999 5:46 PM
To: FG
Subject: Re: RESULTS?
FG wrote:
> I've tried not to bother you knowing you had accepted
> handling the poll on the condition of extra time. People
> are emailing me and wondering what's going on. It
> has been ten days now. I'd appreciate your just letting
> people know the RESULTS as soon as possible.
>
> Thanks, again, for volunteering and contributing your
> time and effort on such a volatile proposal....
I noted in the CFV that the results would be delayed - I anticipate
that I will have the results tabulated next weekend. The results or
an explanation of whatever actions will be posted then.
--
Dave Cornejo - Dogwood Media, Fremont, California
General Magician & Registered Be Developer
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Monday, January 04, 1999 6:13 PM
Subject: Re: Censorship on soc.religion.bahai
Roger Reini wrote in message <3690de57.49706053@news.newsguy.com>...
>There was a note from the moderators which said that they could not
>reject the message, since it did fall within the charter of the
>newsgroup as it was at that time. The charter was revised shortly
>thereafter to prevent CB material from being posted in the future.
>This is a revision that I support.
The "moderators" at soc.religion.bahai are violating other
parts of the "charter" by doing so and transgressing on the
basic covenant they entered into when Usenet permitted
them to form a newsgroup....
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm
On alt.religion.bahai and AOL, Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Monday, January 04, 1999 6:16 PM
To: Dave Cornejo
Cc: Ron House; Frank Baker; Fran Baker; John Walker
Subject: Re: RESULTS?
Dave,
I appreciate your letting us know the time frame
you have in mind. I understand you have other
things to do in life, and it was the holidays.
Thanks.
Fred
-----Original Message-----
From: Dave Cornejo <dave@dogwood.com>
To: FG <FG@hotmail.com>
Date: Monday, January 04, 1999 4:46 PM
Subject: Re: RESULTS?
>FG wrote:
>> I've tried not to bother you knowing you had accepted
>> handling the poll on the condition of extra time. People
>> are emailing me and wondering what's going on. It
>> has been ten days now. I'd appreciate your just letting
>> people know the RESULTS as soon as possible.
>>
>> Thanks, again, for volunteering and contributing your
>> time and effort on such a volatile proposal....
>
>I noted in the CFV that the results would be delayed - I anticipate
>that I will have the results tabulated next weekend. The results or
>an explanation of whatever actions will be posted then.
>
>--
>Dave Cornejo - Dogwood Media, Fremont, California
>General Magician & Registered Be Developer
>
----------
From: Frank Baker[SMTP:fbaker@ncsa.uiuc.edu]
Sent: Monday, January 04, 1999 7:18 PM
To: FG; Dave Cornejo
Cc: Ron House; Frank Baker; Fran Baker; John Walker
Subject: Re: RESULTS?
Thanks, Dave, for the status note. And I just want to second
Frederick's comment that we sincerely appreciate your willingness
to accept and follow through on this vote-taking task.
And thanks, Frederick, for checking with Dave.
I'm sure that I speak for all of the proponents in saying that
we look forward to learning the results.
Regards,
-- Frank
At 05:16 PM 1/4/99 -0500, FG wrote:
>Dave,
>
>I appreciate your letting us know the time frame
>you have in mind. I understand you have other
>things to do in life, and it was the holidays.
>
>Thanks.
>
>Fred
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Dave Cornejo <dave@dogwood.com>
>To: FG <FG@hotmail.com>
>Date: Monday, January 04, 1999 4:46 PM
>Subject: Re: RESULTS?
>
>
>>FG wrote:
>>> I've tried not to bother you knowing you had accepted
>>> handling the poll on the condition of extra time. People
>>> are emailing me and wondering what's going on. It
>>> has been ten days now. I'd appreciate your just letting
>>> people know the RESULTS as soon as possible.
>>>
>>> Thanks, again, for volunteering and contributing your
>>> time and effort on such a volatile proposal....
>>
>>I noted in the CFV that the results would be delayed - I anticipate
>>that I will have the results tabulated next weekend. The results or
>>an explanation of whatever actions will be posted then.
>>
>>--
>>Dave Cornejo - Dogwood Media, Fremont, California
>>General Magician & Registered Be Developer
>>
>
>
----------
From: K. Paul Johnson[SMTP:pjohnson@vsla.edu]
Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 1999 12:45 PM
To: FG@hotmail.com
Subject: trb etc.
Dear Fred,
Is there anything you can tell me about why the vote should be
taking so long? Seems like there must be some problem with the
vote.
I wrote a comment on Roger R.'s last post, but when I did so as a
followup to him the server rejected it. So I posted again, this
time as a separate post entitled "Baha'i Fear and Loathing."
Could you forward that from trm to arb? I don't have the means
to do so.
Hope all works out well this time. Happy 1999,
Paul
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 1999 7:31 AM
Subject: REVISED - soc.religion.bahai - brief quotations
Robert J. Pease, December 5, 1998:
"I support your efforts to expose SRB as a fundamentalist group."
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/srb84.htm
Kent Johnson:
"It turns my stomach that they call themselves a Baha'i Group
while doing these things so obviously partisan and consciously
unjust."
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/srb61.htm
Ron House:
"I think the following is a clear case of malicious
rejection of an article by the worst of the moderators of
soc.religion.bahai."
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/srb53.htm
Timothy Mulligan:
"(Sigh) Fred, I'm beginning to think you're right about those
SRB moderators."
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/srb59.htm
RobertNik:
"these guys are pompous arseholes IMHO."
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/srb54.htm
Bruce Burrill:
"What are Baha'i afraid of?"
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/srb60.htm
Zuteflute:
"Frankly I could not see anything in the letter I wrote which
would prompt someone to ask whether or not I am a Baha'i."
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/srb50.htm
YU ZIR:
"But as an outsider, I can perhaps see the point Fred Glaysher
is making, and which point none of SRB's defenders seem to
address."
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/srb46.htm
Matthew Cromer:
"The current moderators regulate the contents--posting articles
which they agree with...."
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/srb47.htm
Kavosh Soltani, December 9, 1998:
"So many Bahais on these forums
have shown to be ready to forget logic and reason, ignore
clear evidence and Word of God, and come up with exactly the
same line of tired and inaccurate excuses and arguments to
justify their position, that it can not be a simple coincidence."
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/srb77.htm
Melissa Boyer Kafes:
"For me, I have posted a couple of times on soc.religion.bahai
and have gotten a couple of nasty emails...."
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/srb44.htm
Shakti3, December 4, 1998:
"Sorry to hear that you've been surpressed on srb. Your comments
were alway very "right on." Altho it does not surprise me one bit,
seeing the way these newsgroups operate."
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/Ex7.htm
Harold Shinsato:
"It seems like there is an oppression over the Baha'i Faith."
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/srb33.htm
Steve Tomljenovic, December 3, 1998:
"The moderators are a bit overzealous at times. Since all the
controversy started, it has gotten worse."
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/srb79.htm
Laeterna:
"To say I was flabberghasted at this type of "moderating" was
putting it mildly indeed."
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/censored2.htm
Guy Macon"
"Please explain which portion of the charter the following
post violates."
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/censored1.htm
Robin Peters:
"I think you're to be commended for your persistence in the
face of consistent censorship."
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/srb43.htm
jgoldberg:
"I refuse to post on soc.religion.bahai because of the arbitrary and
mean-spirited manner of censorship practiced by the moderators. "
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/srb57.htm
Ruletherod, November 17, 1998:
"Too much damage has already been done in the name and to
the name of Baha'u'llah by right-wing administrative bullies,
linear-thinking apologists, and doctrinaire-fundamentalists. You
can't just blame it all on the critics."
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/srb76.htm
Many other similar messages may be found on my web site under
soc.religion.bahai censorship.
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/srb.htm
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm
On alt.religion.bahai and AOL, Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 1999 2:08 PM
To: K. Paul Johnson
Subject: fw Paul Johnson Re: Censorship on soc.religion.bahai
[Paul Johnson has asked me to forward this message to
alt.religion.bahai. His server's having some kind of trouble
denying him access to the alt.* hierarchy.]
-----Original Message-----
From: K. Paul Johnson <pjohnson@vlinsvr.vsla.edu>
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Date: Tuesday, January 05, 1999 10:41 AM
Subject: Baha'i Fear and Loathing
>Roger Reini writes that a 1996 post to soc.religion.bahai was
>"an attack on the Covenant and the institutions of the Baha'i
>Faith," which said "very disturbing things about the Hands of the
>Cause of God that filled me with revulsion." This caused him
>to "immediately see the wisdom behind the direction for Baha'is
>to avoid materials by Covenant breakers." He supports the revision
>in the srb charter allowing censorship of all "Covenant-breaker"
>posts since even two years later "Even thinking about that
>message gives me the creeps!"
>
>Not being privy to the particular message in question, I can
>nevertheless perceive Mr. Reini's attitude and wish to
>comment on it. The post presumably said that the Hands of the
>Cause had acted improperly in not accepting Charles Mason Remey's
>claims. This *in itself* would be perceived by Baha'is as
>"an attack on the Covenant and the institutions of the Baha'i
>Faith." First, some parallels: Protestants reject the papacy,
>saying its authority claims are not legitimate and past popes
>have acted improperly. Should Catholics therefore demand that no
>Protestant be allowed to say this on Christian discussion groups,
>because it's hate-spewing, attacking the Pope, disturbing and
>revolting to believers in his claims? More to the point, Baha'is
>are regarded by Muslims as a minor sect, not a real world
>religion, and one that has no legitimacy and which should be at
>best discouraged and at worst exterminated. Should Muslims be
>able to demand that Baha'is not be allowed to say anything about
>their beliefs on a Muslim newsgroup, because an expression of
>said belief is implicitly an attack on Islam and its
>institutions, and Baha'i beliefs are inherently
>"disturbing" and "revolting?" Ad nauseum.
>
>The way the post was phrased suggested that the "disturbing" and
>"revolting" and "attacking" were *objective* qualities of the
>"Covenant-breaker" post. In fact, they were *subjective* reactions
>of a Baha'i who has been conditioned to be disturbed and revolted
>by any challenge to the authority claims of his religious
>institutions. If such subjective and conditioned reactions are
>to be taken as criteria justifying censorship *by* Baha'is, then
>does Mr. Reini accept that other people's fear/loathing reactions
>should justify censorship *of* Baha'is?
>
>A crucial element of spiritual awakening is liberating oneself
>from the fear-based reactions that have been conditioned by
>religious authorities, and looking directly at challenging issues
>without shivering or trying to silence those who raise them.
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 1999 2:08 PM
Subject: fw Paul Johnson Re: Censorship on soc.religion.bahai
[Paul Johnson has asked me to forward this message to
alt.religion.bahai. His server's having some kind of trouble
denying him access to the alt.* hierarchy.]
-----Original Message-----
From: K. Paul Johnson <pjohnson@vlinsvr.vsla.edu>
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Date: Tuesday, January 05, 1999 10:41 AM
Subject: Baha'i Fear and Loathing
>Roger Reini writes that a 1996 post to soc.religion.bahai was
>"an attack on the Covenant and the institutions of the Baha'i
>Faith," which said "very disturbing things about the Hands of the
>Cause of God that filled me with revulsion." This caused him
>to "immediately see the wisdom behind the direction for Baha'is
>to avoid materials by Covenant breakers." He supports the revision
>in the srb charter allowing censorship of all "Covenant-breaker"
>posts since even two years later "Even thinking about that
>message gives me the creeps!"
>
>Not being privy to the particular message in question, I can
>nevertheless perceive Mr. Reini's attitude and wish to
>comment on it. The post presumably said that the Hands of the
>Cause had acted improperly in not accepting Charles Mason Remey's
>claims. This *in itself* would be perceived by Baha'is as
>"an attack on the Covenant and the institutions of the Baha'i
>Faith." First, some parallels: Protestants reject the papacy,
>saying its authority claims are not legitimate and past popes
>have acted improperly. Should Catholics therefore demand that no
>Protestant be allowed to say this on Christian discussion groups,
>because it's hate-spewing, attacking the Pope, disturbing and
>revolting to believers in his claims? More to the point, Baha'is
>are regarded by Muslims as a minor sect, not a real world
>religion, and one that has no legitimacy and which should be at
>best discouraged and at worst exterminated. Should Muslims be
>able to demand that Baha'is not be allowed to say anything about
>their beliefs on a Muslim newsgroup, because an expression of
>said belief is implicitly an attack on Islam and its
>institutions, and Baha'i beliefs are inherently
>"disturbing" and "revolting?" Ad nauseum.
>
>The way the post was phrased suggested that the "disturbing" and
>"revolting" and "attacking" were *objective* qualities of the
>"Covenant-breaker" post. In fact, they were *subjective* reactions
>of a Baha'i who has been conditioned to be disturbed and revolted
>by any challenge to the authority claims of his religious
>institutions. If such subjective and conditioned reactions are
>to be taken as criteria justifying censorship *by* Baha'is, then
>does Mr. Reini accept that other people's fear/loathing reactions
>should justify censorship *of* Baha'is?
>
>A crucial element of spiritual awakening is liberating oneself
>from the fear-based reactions that have been conditioned by
>religious authorities, and looking directly at challenging issues
>without shivering or trying to silence those who raise them.
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 1999 2:16 PM
To: K. Paul Johnson
Subject: Re: trb etc.
I don't know what's going on either. I'm worried something
is really up. The votetaker had asked for more than
the standard 5 days after the vote. We all assumed
it was because of the holiday season. He's saying
now he wants through this coming weekend....
I forwarded your message to arb.
I appreciate your words defending me to some extent
lately. Few seem to realize I'm not the monster Bahais
make me out to be....
Happy '99!
Fred
-----Original Message-----
From: K. Paul Johnson <pjohnson@vsla.edu>
To: FG@hotmail.com <FG@hotmail.com>
Date: Tuesday, January 05, 1999 3:46 AM
Subject: trb etc.
>Dear Fred,
>
>Is there anything you can tell me about why the vote should be
>taking so long? Seems like there must be some problem with the
>vote.
>
>I wrote a comment on Roger R.'s last post, but when I did so as a
>followup to him the server rejected it. So I posted again, this
>time as a separate post entitled "Baha'i Fear and Loathing."
>Could you forward that from trm to arb? I don't have the means
>to do so.
>
>Hope all works out well this time. Happy 1999,
>
>Paul
----------
From: K. Paul Johnson[SMTP:pjohnson@vsla.edu]
Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 1999 4:29 PM
To: FG
Subject: Re: trb etc.
Dear Fred,
Thanks for forwarding the post. It's not that I can't access the
alt. hierarchy; never have been able to access arb from my
server. But in addition, when I tried to answer Roger, I got an
error message saying it was rejected. Otherwise my response
would have gone to arb because it was already in the headers,
even though I can't read it.
Could you also post this (leaving out the above para and this
line):
Having received anonymous abusive email in the past from the UK,
with the same slangy style as shown by today's anonymous Brit, I
was curious about who might be up to this on arb today, and if it might
be the same person who wrote to me a couple of years ago. So I looked
up an author profile for his/her account. Someone at this account has
posted to srb as Rachael, a 28-year-old lifetime Baha'i whose parents
wouldn't celebrate Christmas but who encourages her own
children to do so. But s/he or another also posted from the
same account as "Pete," with a style more in keeping with today's
anonymous offerings on arb-- enthusing about someone calling Tim
"Tiffany."
What I'd like to know is what any Baha'i can possibly be thinking
when s/he posts like this. What impression of the Faith does
s/he imagine is being created before the public? Care to
explain, Pete/Rachael?
----------
From: Milissa Boyer Kafes[SMTP:mbkafes@bestweb.net]
Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 1999 6:36 PM
To: FG
Subject: Context of my quote
Hello everybody--
On numerous occasions Frederick has posted a list of quotes regarding
censorship and SRB. He quotes me:
>>For me, I have posted a couple of
>>times on soc.religion.bahai and have gotten a couple of nasty emails andit
>>just ruins my whole day!
This is an accurate quote. However, I think Frederick is
misunderstanding/misusing the context. He is rightly concerned about
censorship on SRB when posts are rejected. My comment, however, was about
responses I received to posts that *were* put on SRB by the moderators. My
comment, then, was not about censorship, since I did get to say what I
wanted to. Some people did not like what I said and told me so. As far as
I know they were not moderators.
In light of this, I'd appreciate it if Frederick would remove me from this
list of quotes. Thanks.
Peace
Milissa Boyer Kafes
mbkafes@bestweb.net
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 1999 9:37 PM
Subject: fw Paul Johnson 2nd message Re: Censorship on soc.religion.bahai
[Mr. Johnson has also asked me to forward this 2nd message
to alt.religion.bahai since he's receiving some type of error
message that is preventing his crossposting from talk.religion.misc.]
-----Original Message-----
From: K. Paul Johnson <pjohnson@vsla.edu>
To: FG <FG@hotmail.com>
Date: Tuesday, January 05, 1999 3:29 PM
Subject: Re: trb etc.
>Having received anonymous abusive email in the past from the UK,
>with the same slangy style as shown by today's anonymous Brit, I
>was curious about who might be up to this on arb today, and if it might
>be the same person who wrote to me a couple of years ago. So I looked
>up an author profile for his/her account. Someone at this account has
>posted to srb as Rachael, a 28-year-old lifetime Baha'i whose parents
>wouldn't celebrate Christmas but who encourages her own
>children to do so. But s/he or another also posted from the
>same account as "Pete," with a style more in keeping with today's
>anonymous offerings on arb-- enthusing about someone calling Tim
>"Tiffany."
>
>What I'd like to know is what any Baha'i can possibly be thinking
>when s/he posts like this. What impression of the Faith does
>s/he imagine is being created before the public? Care to
>explain, Pete/Rachael?
>
>
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 1999 9:56 PM
To: K. Paul Johnson
Subject: Re: fw Paul Johnson 2nd message Re: Censorship on soc.religion.bahai
"Rachael" and "Pete" have also attacked me numerous times
and I believe their messages may be found somewhere in my
archives.
A Muslim, I believe Kavosh Soltani, remarked recently that
Bahais are posting to alt.religion.bahai using various false
accounts. I've noticed and suspected it myself many times....
I wonder if these "two" also "NeoLuddite":
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/hate11.htm
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm
On alt.religion.bahai and AOL, Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
FG wrote in message <76ueoj$4f8@news1.newsguy.com>...
>[Mr. Johnson has also asked me to forward this 2nd message
>to alt.religion.bahai since he's receiving some type of error
>message that is preventing his crossposting from talk.religion.misc.]
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: K. Paul Johnson <pjohnson@vsla.edu>
>To: FG <FG@hotmail.com>
>Date: Tuesday, January 05, 1999 3:29 PM
>Subject: Re: trb etc.
>
>>Having received anonymous abusive email in the past from the UK,
>>with the same slangy style as shown by today's anonymous Brit, I
>>was curious about who might be up to this on arb today, and if it might
>>be the same person who wrote to me a couple of years ago. So I looked
>>up an author profile for his/her account. Someone at this account has
>>posted to srb as Rachael, a 28-year-old lifetime Baha'i whose parents
>>wouldn't celebrate Christmas but who encourages her own
>>children to do so. But s/he or another also posted from the
>>same account as "Pete," with a style more in keeping with today's
>>anonymous offerings on arb-- enthusing about someone calling Tim
>>"Tiffany."
>>
>>What I'd like to know is what any Baha'i can possibly be thinking
>>when s/he posts like this. What impression of the Faith does
>>s/he imagine is being created before the public? Care to
>>explain, Pete/Rachael?
>>
>>
>
>
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 1999 9:56 PM
Subject: Re: fw Paul Johnson 2nd message Re: Censorship on soc.religion.bahai
"Rachael" and "Pete" have also attacked me numerous times
and I believe their messages may be found somewhere in my
archives.
A Muslim, I believe Kavosh Soltani, remarked recently that
Bahais are posting to alt.religion.bahai using various false
accounts. I've noticed and suspected it myself many times....
I wonder if these "two" also "NeoLuddite":
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/hate11.htm
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm
On alt.religion.bahai and AOL, Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
FG wrote in message <76ueoj$4f8@news1.newsguy.com>...
>[Mr. Johnson has also asked me to forward this 2nd message
>to alt.religion.bahai since he's receiving some type of error
>message that is preventing his crossposting from talk.religion.misc.]
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: K. Paul Johnson <pjohnson@vsla.edu>
>To: FG <FG@hotmail.com>
>Date: Tuesday, January 05, 1999 3:29 PM
>Subject: Re: trb etc.
>
>>Having received anonymous abusive email in the past from the UK,
>>with the same slangy style as shown by today's anonymous Brit, I
>>was curious about who might be up to this on arb today, and if it might
>>be the same person who wrote to me a couple of years ago. So I looked
>>up an author profile for his/her account. Someone at this account has
>>posted to srb as Rachael, a 28-year-old lifetime Baha'i whose parents
>>wouldn't celebrate Christmas but who encourages her own
>>children to do so. But s/he or another also posted from the
>>same account as "Pete," with a style more in keeping with today's
>>anonymous offerings on arb-- enthusing about someone calling Tim
>>"Tiffany."
>>
>>What I'd like to know is what any Baha'i can possibly be thinking
>>when s/he posts like this. What impression of the Faith does
>>s/he imagine is being created before the public? Care to
>>explain, Pete/Rachael?
>>
>>
>
>
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 1999 9:41 AM
Subject: Re: Context of my quote
Milissa Boyer Kafes wrote in message ...
>In light of this, I'd appreciate it if Frederick would remove me from this
>list of quotes. Thanks.
I apologize for accidentally misrepresenting your views. It was
not my intention. I shall be happy to remove the quotation from
the next posting.
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm
On alt.religion.bahai and AOL, Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 1999 9:44 AM
Subject: Antinomies - Robert Browning, Dostoevsky
From a May 1992 letter:
I've been reading lately a narrative poem by Robert
Browning, "Bishop Blougram's Apology." I've read it a number of
times over the years, and it's one that I continue to think
about. The character of the bishop is partly based on John Henry
Newman and another contemporary figure in the Roman Catholic
Church, the latter of whom was especially noted for his abuse of
power and position. Over dinner, the bishop justifies his
corruption to a young journalist who has noticed his calculation,
insincerity, and hypocrisy. In much of the poem, Browning is
dealing with the nature of religious doubt. While the bishop is
a hypocrite who embraces Catholicism because it gives him "cabin
comforts" and the "estimation" of the masses, the journalist is
charmingly naive in his insistence that religious faith should be
"absolute." In a marvelous passage Browning recognizes the
complex duality of the human soul:
No, when the fight begins within himself,
A man's worth something. God stoops o'er his head,
Satan looks up between his feet--both tug--
He's left, himself, i' the middle: the soul wakes
And grows. Prolong that battle through his life!
Never leave growing till the life to come!
ll. 690
Putting this truth in a sophist's mouth, Browning probes much
deeper into the struggle for faith than the "pious" usually allow
themselves. To my mind, the health of the spirit requires that
freedom--given by God--to doubt and question and probe every
single dogma of religion in its oppressively organized phase. On
the other hand, Browning's point is partly that doubt itself,
like evil and suffering, is a test of one's belief, for mature
belief can only grow out of the struggle with doubt.
There is something deeply, inescapably, eternally
dialectical in the human being and in the very nature of
existence, the way it develops, evolves, progresses.
Dostoevsky, in his chapter "The Grand Inquisitor," In The
Brothers Karamazov, meditates dialectically on the dilemma of
free will and obedience to religious authority. Christ returns
during the Spanish Inquisition and is imprisoned by the Grand
Inquisitor who accuses Christ of leading men into confusion by
giving them freedom of choice and conscience. The Grand
Inquisitor informs Christ that
We have corrected Your work and have now founded it on
miracle, mystery, and authority. And men rejoice at
being led like cattle again, with the terrible gift of
freedom that brought them so much suffering removed
from them.
The Inquisitor goes on to tell Christ that man's "greatest need
on earth" is "to find someone to worship, someone who can relieve
him of the burden of his conscience, thus enabling him finally to
unite into a harmonious ant-hill where there are no dissenting
voices. . . ." In place of individual responsibility to God, the
Inquisitor promises to free mankind from "the frightening torment
they know today when they have to decide for themselves how to
act." Christ listens to this sophist without uttering a word,
and then, at the end, before being allowed to leave, rises and
kisses the Inquisitor. Ivan, a nihilist, who relates this story,
asserts all too accurately that in the modern world "everything
is permitted." The Grand Inquisitor, grasping for power, a
character to whom Nietzsche must have responded deeply, "doesn't
believe in God." Dostoevsky knew these rich tensions were part
of human nature. At times, the Bahá'í administration grossly
fails to understand that Bahá'u'lláh has also blessed humankind
with this burden of freedom and responsibility.
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm
On alt.religion.bahai and AOL, Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: Ron House[SMTP:house@usq.edu.au]
Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 1999 11:14 PM
To: FG
Subject: Re: RESULTS?
FG wrote:
>
> Dave,
>
> I appreciate your letting us know the time frame
> you have in mind. I understand you have other
> things to do in life, and it was the holidays.
Hi Fred, I must have missed something over my break. What's the latest?
--
Ron House house@usq.edu.au
You can only be right if you have the courage to be wrong.
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, January 07, 1999 9:19 AM
To: Ron House
Subject: Re: RESULTS?
Dave said he'd have to wait until this coming
weekend to finish tabulating the RESULTS.
I cc-ed you on it. I don't why it's taking so long.
Fred
-----Original Message-----
From: Ron House <house@usq.edu.au>
To: FG <FG@hotmail.com>
Date: Wednesday, January 06, 1999 2:39 PM
Subject: Re: RESULTS?
>FG wrote:
>>
>> Dave,
>>
>> I appreciate your letting us know the time frame
>> you have in mind. I understand you have other
>> things to do in life, and it was the holidays.
>
>Hi Fred, I must have missed something over my break. What's the latest?
>
>--
>Ron House house@usq.edu.au
>
>You can only be right if you have the courage to be wrong.
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Friday, January 08, 1999 11:01 AM
Subject: fw K. Paul Johnson Re: Considering Bahaism? Fact #4
Paul,
Hope you don't stop reading and contributing! I don't
mind forwarding for you or others.
-----Original Message-----
From: K. Paul Johnson <pjohnson@vsla.edu>
To: FG@hotmail.com <FG@hotmail.com>
Date: Friday, January 08, 1999 1:33 AM
Subject: Baha's Arabic
>Dear Fred,
>
>I hate to keep asking you to forward. It's frustrating to be
>able to read arb but not to be able to post. Thought I'd gotten
>Dejanews functioning to that end, but so far no success. Could
>you please forward this (and a couple more) and then I'll stop
>reading rather than keep bothering you:
>
>Dear Arbdenizens:
>
>Intrigued by the Schaut/Mulligan discussion about Baha'u'llah's
>Arabic, I wrote to an expert in both the author and the language
>in question. Here's what Juan Cole replied: "Baha'u'llah was a
>high notable, whose father was at one point the governor of
>Luristan and Burujird (and who had married into the royal
>family), and he had an excellent liberal arts education,
>including in the basics of Arabic. However, his Arabic was not
>in fact flawless. His early tablets are full of grammatical
>errors and idiosyncrasies. Only later in life did he have these
>rewritten in standard Arabic."
>
>Hope this sheds some light,
>
>Paul
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Friday, January 08, 1999 11:04 AM
Subject: fw K. Paul Johnson Critiqued or attacked? (Re: Considering Bahaism? Fact #4)
-----Original Message-----
From: K. Paul Johnson <pjohnson@vsla.edu>
To: FG@hotmail.com <FG@hotmail.com>
Date: Friday, January 08, 1999 1:48 AM
Subject: Critiqued or attacked?
>Dear Arbians,
>
>Robert Little says that "critiqued, attacked, assaulted, reviled,
>it depends on your point of view." There's a grain of truth in
>that but a large amount of error. The true part, from my own
>perspective: I wrote books about H.P. Blavatsky and Edgar Cayce
>that did the same thing, placing their work in historical
>perspective, examining the sources of their teachings, evaluating
>the claims made on their behalf. In each case I ended up with a
>revisionist account of a movement founder that established a
>middle way between the hagiographies of believers and the attacks
>of debunkers. But while Theosophical officialdom predominantly
>saw this as "attacking, reviling" etc., the Cayce family and
>A.R.E. leaders saw it as "critique" which they welcome with open
>arms and have publicly embraced. The difference was indeed one
>of point of view. Baha'is, too, if told "I think Baha'u'llah was
>about half right and half wrong" (roughly my position) would tend
>to see this in much more hostile terms than Cayceans. Why?
>Cayce admitted his fallibility, didn't believe everything that
>came through his trances, encouraged people to test and weigh and
>discard whatever didn't suit them personally, and thus created a
>climate much more friendly to critique. Baha, and implicitly
>Blavatsky, made claims to infallibility which created an
>atmosphere of rigid hyperorthodoxy and defensiveness in their
>followers.
>
>Nevertheless, in recent posts here Baha'u'llah *has* been
>"attacked, assaulted, reviled"-- something I have never done. It
>irks me somewhat to think that some Baha'is lump all criticism
>together, not making the distinction between blatantly hostile
>and disrespectful commentary and simple disagreement and
>critique. The difference is not simply one of point of view of
>the reader. It is objective. Scorn, contempt, ridicule have no
>legitimate place in discourse among people committed to inter-religious
>fellowship and discussion-- be they Baha'is or ex. IMO.
>
>Cheers,
>Paul
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Friday, January 08, 1999 11:15 AM
Subject: fw K. Paul Johnson CB double standard
-----Original Message-----
From: K. Paul Johnson <pjohnson@vsla.edu>
To: FG@hotmail.com <FG@hotmail.com>
Date: Friday, January 08, 1999 2:08 AM
Subject: CB double standard
>Dear Arbites,
>
>One does not have to know all the details of a situation to
>recognize the attitude expressed by someone reacting to it.
>Roger Reini's reaction to a CB post involved revulsion, shivers,
>being "made sick" thinking about it, and so on. This is
>obviously fear-based and rests on an attitude. That attitude is
>that "challenges to the legitimacy and authority of Baha'i
>institutions are an outrage."
>
>It has already been pointed out that Baha'is have no qualms about
>making nasty personal remarks about CBs in history; read Shoghi
>Effendi or Adib Taherzadeh for examples. But I am more concerned
>about the double standard involving how Baha'is want to be
>treated by other religions and how they treat their own
>dissenters.
>
>As a Christian, I find Baha'i claims about the Second Coming to
>be misguided, misleading, and unfortunate. But not outrageous,
>or offensive, or something to feel revulsion and shivers and
>sickness over. Yet Baha'is are saying to Christians essentially
>the same thing CBs are saying to Baha'is: "Your religious leaders
>have it all wrong. The true succession is in our hands, not
>yours. We are the true representatives of the Covenant, whereas
>you have violated it." How have Christians reacted to this,
>historically? "Well, fine, whatever you say. Come on in,
>compete in the marketplace of ideas, see what you can accomplish.
>We disagree with your claims but welcome you to press them
>however you wish." Not all Christians, but Christian-dominated
>societies have taken this approach all over the world. Same with
>Hindu and Buddhist societies. Baha'i has been welcomed despite
>its claims to supersede these religions. Why? Christianity,
>Hinduism and Buddhism have such a long history of growing
>tolerance for internal diversity (with a hell of a lot of
>bloodshed and oppression getting to that point) that a climate
>has been created which Baha'i can take advantage of, put down
>roots and flourish. What world religion has been most hostile to
>Baha'i? Islam, which was responsible for thousands of martyrdoms
>and continues to either persecute or suppress Baha'i believers.
>Yet Baha'is preach to Christians and Hindus and Buddhists that we
>should accept Islam as the next stage in spiritual evolution, and
>Baha'i as the one after that. We should embrace the Quran as
>holy, and regard Islam as an advance on everything that went
>before it. That is an extremely hard idea to sell to followers
>of other world religions, all of which have experienced Islam
>more as oppressive and destructive than as liberating and
>enlightening.
>
>But I digress. The problem with Baha'i attitudes to CBs as a
>double standard is this. Baha'is think that the proper response
>to people making succession claims at variance with orthodoxy is
>to shun and silence them. Yet they don't want to be shunned and
>silenced themselves, and are making parallel claims vis-a-vis
>Judaism, Christianity, Hinduism, Buddhism, and Islam.
>
>Do unto others...
>
>PJ
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, January 09, 1999 12:27 PM
Subject: Re: Good show!
"The Bahai Technique":
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/technique.htm
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm
On alt.religion.bahai and AOL, Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, January 10, 1999 9:22 AM
To: RMckin6046
Subject: Re: Good show!
I have not read your message. Please do not
email when replying on arb.
-----Original Message-----
From: RMckin6046 <rmckin6046@aol.com>
Newsgroups: alt.religion.bahai
To: FG@hotmail.com <FG@hotmail.com>
Date: Sunday, January 10, 1999 2:01 AM
Subject: Re: Good show!
>Fred:
>
>I must apologize for offending you. I am sorry.
>
>Perhaps I am naive. Perhaps I am mistaken. But I did not think that I
>deserves the standard "The Bahai Technique" reply to my recent post.
>
>I sincerely meant my last sentence: "I appreciate them both. Keep up the
good
>work." This was a complimentary statement from me to you. It was not a
dig
>nor was it some back-handed way to insult you.
>
>I have disagreed with you at times. And, I have tried to keep my posts on
>topic, not on personality. Surely, it is okay that we disagree in an open
>forum.
>
>I have also agreed with you at times, and I have said so. I have
especially
>agreed that people tend to respond in the manner that they are addressed
>causing them to react to your personality and to slights that they perceive
>were aimed personally at them. I once suggested that we guard against
>responding to the manner in which we perceive the posts were written and
stick
>to the content of the posts. As I recall, your initial response to this
post
>was favorable, but later you criticized it.
>
>I am at a loss. Can we discuss things without my criticizing your manner
and
>the way you write and without you questioning my motives? Is there a way
that
>we can be friends without me becoming a critic of the Faith and the
Baha'is?
>
>Sincerely,
>
>Richard
>
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, January 10, 1999 9:50 AM
Subject: Re: Context of my quote
For the non-Bahai or news.groupie, I am responding to this
message. Bahais have repeatedly, consistently attempted
to threaten, intimidate, and coerce other Bahais and non-Bahais
through "private" email. I agree with the many, many observers
over the last few years that the only way to prevent such tactics
by Bahais is the open light of day.... where all may read and
judge for themselves. Important links might be:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/hate.htm
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/AOL.htm
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/Maneck1.htm
Among others....
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm
On alt.religion.bahai and AOL, Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
Smaneck wrote in message <19990109154142.00851.00010954@ng-fi1.aol.com>...
>Dear Milissa,
>
>I applaud your integrity in not letting Fred take your statement out of
>context. I'm surprised to see that he did agree to remove your quote. What
>would be most appropriate would be if he removed everything he has put up
>without the author's consent, especially those who have made it quite clear
>that they object to his having done this. I point especially to the private
>correspondence which he has placed on his website.
>warmest,
>
>Susan
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Monday, January 11, 1999 7:53 AM
To: bahai-faith @ egroups.com
Cc: talisman
Subject: Fw: RESULT: talk.religion.bahai passes 218:63
-----Original Message-----
From: Dave Cornejo <dave@dogwood.com>
Newsgroups:
news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,alt.religion.bahai,soc.rights.human,talk
.religion.misc
Date: Sunday, January 10, 1999 10:41 PM
Subject: RESULT: talk.religion.bahai passes 218:63
> RESULT
> unmoderated group talk.religion.bahai passes 218:63
>
>There were 218 YES votes and 63 NO votes, for a total of 281 valid
>votes. There were 6 abstentions and 8 invalid ballots.
>
>For a group to pass, YES votes must be at least 2/3 of all valid
>(YES and NO) votes. There must also be at least 100 more YES votes
>than NO votes.
>
>A five day discussion period follows this announcement. If no
>serious allegations of voting irregularities are raised, the
>moderator of news.announce.newgroups will create the group shortly
>thereafter.
>
>Newsgroups line:
>talk.religion.bahai Discussion of the Baha'i Faith.
>
>Voting closed at 23:59:59 UTC, 25 Dec 1998.
>
>This vote was conducted by a neutral third party. Questions
>about the proposed group should be directed to the proponent.
>
>Proponent: FG <FG@hotmail.com>
>Proponent: Ron House <house@usq.edu.au>
>Proponent: Fran Baker <fran@crhc.uiuc.edu>
>Proponent: Frank Baker <fbaker@ncsa.uiuc.edu>
>Proponent: John Walker <johnwalker@ozemail.com.au>
>Votetaker: Dave Cornejo <dave@dogwood.com>
>
>RATIONALE: talk.religion.bahai
>
>The newsgroup talk.religion.bahai is proposed to meet the need for an
>open and unmoderated forum for discussion of the Baha'i Faith within
>the structure of the Big 8 hierarchies.
>
>The proponents intend that talk.religion.bahai will complement, rather
>than supplant, the existing moderated group soc.religion.bahai, and
>will provide those without access to alt.religion.bahai the
>opportunity to participate. It is noted that the alt.* hierarchy is
>less well propagated than the talk.* hierarchy; this has meant that
>many people who have voted YES on earlier proposals have been unable
>to join discussions on alt.religion.bahai.
>
>CHARTER: talk.religion.bahai
>
>All topics or ideas relevant to the Baha'i faith -- its history,
>teachings, theology, etc. -- would be appropriate areas for
>discussion.
>
>Talk.religion.bahai fills the need for a fully open and universally
>accessible Internet forum about the Baha'i Faith. Postings may take
>any point of view with regard to the Baha'i Faith. While this allows
>criticism, it also fully opens the door for enquirers to see with
>their own eyes and not through the eyes of their neighbors, asking
>questions and reading replies from anyone who is interested in their
>question.
>
>Readers are asked to observe standard netiquette in their use of this
>newsgroup.
>
>Readers are asked to observe Baha'i standards of conduct and not to
>start or prolong flamewars in the group, but to focus instead on
>articles and threads written in more moderate terms.
>
>The posting of articles not relevant to the Baha'i Faith is
>prohibited. Large ASCII graphics, large binaries, pornography, spam,
>and any postings of a purely personal or commercial nature are
>prohibited. To facilitate viewing in news readers that are not
>HTML-capable, HTML-formatted postings are strongly discouraged.
>
>Cross-posting to irrelevant groups is also discouraged, and readers
>are encouraged to redirect follow-ups to reduce excessive
>cross-posting. Readers may also post articles that have been rejected
>>from soc.religion.bahai, so long as they conform to this charter.
>
>END CHARTER.
>
>
>DISTRIBUTION:
>
>In addition to the groups named in the Newsgroups: header, the CFV
>and the eventual RESULT posts will be mailed to these mailing lists:
>
>Mailing list name: Talisman
>Submission address: talisman@umich.edu
>Request address: jsgreen@umich.edu
>
>Mailing list name: Bahai Studies
>Submission address: bahai-st@johnco.cc.ks.us
>Request address: major@johnco.cc.ks.us
>
>Mailing list name: h-Bahai
>Submission address: h-Bahai@h-net.msu.edu
>Request address: jrcole@umich.edu
>
>Mailing list name: bahai-faith
>Submission address: bahai-faith@egroups.com
>Request address: bahai-faith-subscribe@egroups.com
>
>Pointers directing readers to this CFV will be posted in these groups:
>
>alt.religion
>soc.religion.eastern
>soc.religion.gnosis
>soc.religion.hindu
>soc.religion.paganism
>soc.religion.quaker
>soc.religion.unitarian-univ
>talk.religion.buddhism
>talk.religion.newage
>talk.philosophy.humanism
>talk.philosophy.misc
>uk.religion.interfaith
>uk.religion.misc
>uk.religion.other-faiths
>
>
>
>talk.religion.bahai Final Voter list
>
>Voted YES
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
>garner#looksmart.com.au Rena
Garner
>johnn#mpx.com.au John
New
>mclark#tpgi.com.au Martin
Clark
>house#usq.edu.au Ron
House
>jmara#cyllene.uwa.edu.au Joel Jani
Marangella
>ghous#osr.nsw.gov.au Gitie
House
>billbrwr#compusmart.ab.ca Bill
Brewer
>sugimotm#cuug.ab.ca Mike
Sugimoto
>crleech#freenet.carleton.ca Colin R.
Leech
>shaheedi#nbnet.nb.ca Afzal
Shaheedi
>trustone#bc.sympatico.ca Akbarally
Meherally
>zarepour#mathstat.uottawa.ca Mahmoud
Zarepour.
>narayan123#123india.com Kanva
Narayan
>tierney#alloymail.com Sal
Tierney
>hanv#angelfire.com Haq
Hanvey
>AAli929596#aol.com Abdulnasser
Ali
>BRaynor781#aol.com
>CRust60001#aol.com
>FG#aol.com FG
>HANI72#aol.com Hani
Ayyad
>Jimo3#aol.com Jim
Overmyer
>JoySafari#aol.com Marcella
Hamilton
>KevinEco#aol.com Kevin
Haines
>Macho786#aol.com Maaz
Khan
>Member1700#aol.com Anthony A.
Lee
>PParvin#aol.com
>RayHanania#aol.com John
Doe
>RobertNik#aol.com Robert S
Nikjoo
>SAMaso#aol.com J. Eddie
Parent.
>Shaksway#aol.com jim Davis
(shaksway)
>Smastr#aol.com Sam
Masters
>amasri#dcn.att.com Ala'a
Elmasri
>macleod#beloved.com John
MacLeod
>alexdawson#bigfoot.com Alex
Dawson
>kindervater#businessweekmail.com "Doc"
Kindervater
>tom4#canoemail.com Thomas
Buckland
>sandraa#ccnmail.com
S. A.
>habuhant#CH2M.com Haytham
Abu-Hantash
>markow#chickmail.com Sassy
Markow
>Laudrigan#collegeclub.com Bud
Laudrigan
>jgoldberg#condolawyers.com Jeffrey A.
Goldberg
>kathleenm#cybertrails.com McKibben
Family
>eridani#databasix.com
Belinda
>booda#datasync.com Martin H.
Booda
>guymacon#deltanet.com guymacon#deltanet.com (Guy
Macon)
>vminai#spd.dsccc.com Viqar
Minai
>carducci#easypost.com Ladislaus
Carducci
>UNGARINO#ECardMail.Com Eleanor
Ungarino
>john_brownston#educastmail.com John
Brownston
>mercado959#email.com Jennifer
Mercado
>edwardiii#england.com Edward
III
>stomljen#enteract.com Steve
Tomljenovic
>rothbrian#mail.entrepreneurmag.com Brian
Roth
>alshawa#erols.com Amer
Alshawa
>shaukat#erols.com Khalid
Shaukat
>tutstone#eudoramail.com Marlene
Tutstone
>lopezaz#excite.com Jaime
Lopez
>umaraadil#excite.com
> Umar Aadil Abdul Rahman McKloskey
Abdullah
>gkerley#execpc.com Gillam
Kerley
>david#farrar.com David
Farrar
>lucie_vendome#fcmail.com Lucie
Vendome
>wilsonj#flashemail.com Jack
Wilson
>runchey467#fnmail.com Jeff
Runchey
>dave#frackit.com Dave
Ratcliffe
>howie#giantsfan.com Ron
Howard
>kendrick64#GNWMail.com Steve
Kendrick
>BHoyt#goplay.com Brian
Hoyt
>bjv#herbison.com B.J.
Herbison
>maher#home.com Maher
Barakat
>c.nunez#hotbot.com Cindy
Nunez
>burnettcj#hotmail.com Clara
Frade-Burnett
>shakir_husain#hotmail.com Shakir
Husain
>rdetweil#boi.hp.com Dick
Detweiler
>rshane#us.ibm.com Randall
Shane
>goodlett#ignmail.com Jim
Goodlett
>takriti#ihorizons.com Mohamad
Takriti
>hopegartner#iname.com Alice
Hopegartner
>matthew_cromer#iname.com Matthew
Cromer
>ramirazodi#iname.com Roohi
Amirazodi
>muntada#inix.com
Rashid
>jaed#jaedworks.com Jeanne A. E.
DeVoto
>kwame#jahoopa.com Kwame
Unanda
>samorgan#java-man.com
<FONT =
>r_lee#jerusalemail.com Lee
Rusan
>Aansari#dc.jones.com
Aamir=20
>o_elkordy#juno.com Omar El
Kordy
>Christensen#kansascity.com Len
Christensen
>henry42#mail.kmsp.com Henry
Wadsworth
>todomanana#latino.com Miguel
Hernandez
>David.Vessell#lpcorp.com David L.
Vessell
>sponseller#lycosmail.com David
Sponseller
>EdythBadalian#MailAndNews.com Edyth
Badalian
>ogreen#mailcity.com
Ogreen
>jensen29#mailtag.com Edward
Jensen
>hoffman#mailwire.com Larry
Hoffman
>cipher#mindspring.com
Cipher
>unrein#cig.mot.com W.
Sanders-Unrein
>billmc#email.msn.com Bill
McJohn
>chesshazlett#email.msn.com " and be immediately
followed
>olav#viking.mv.com Olav
Nieuwejaar
>hyle#my-dejanews.com Sohayl
Shambashi
>marifok#my-dejanews.com Arif
Muljadi
>rlittle33#my-dejanews.com Robert
Little
>sutherland55#netradiomail.com Lisa
Sutherland
>mirele#newsguy.com Deana M.
Holmes
>dmarasco#npsnet.com David
Marasco
>cgruber#us.oracle.com Christian Edward
Gruber
>jtidwell#animato.pn.com Jenifer P.
Tidwell
>rlcarr#animato.pn.com Rich
Carreiro
>ellenberg#popmail.com Jane
Ellenberg
>E.Adams#pousa.com Eileen
Adams
>MRaflin#PREMIER-OIL.com Muhammad
Raflin
>robertwarren#prontomail.com Robert
Warren
>timken#prontomail.com Ruth
Timken
>Safir_Ulhaque#raytheon.com Safir
Ulhaque
>jasonmeller#recyclermail.com Jason
Meller
>griffin#rednecks.com Bud
Griffin
>chvatel#rotfl.com David
Chvatel
>maruyama#sacbeemail.com Victor
Maruyama
>harold#shinsato.com Harold
Shinsato
>imran#spsnet.com Imran A.
Mufti
>pan#syix.com
Pan
>s.humes#talk21.com Shirley
Humes
>josephb#tezcat.com Joe
Bernstein
>charlotte#thedorm.com Charlotte
<BR>
>lininger#theheadoffice.com Lininger
<BR>
>AlvartRiecker#unbounded.com Alvart
Riecker
>smahmud#uop.com Shahid
Mahmud
>lingel#email.women.com Sam
Lingel
>haldi#worldmailer.com Kenneth
Haldi
>arman_taj#yahoo.com Arman
Tajarobi
>galaxy001#yahoo.com
j.s.
>kruposki#yahoo.com Andrew
Krupowicz
>nimans#yahoo.com Niman
Shukairy
>padidehjan#yahoo.com
PadidehjAn
>uhler668#yahoo.com Nancy
Uhler
>kakhtar#yours.com Khalid
Akhtar
>vote#kholdan.snafu.de tobias
erle
>indratmoko.poerwanto#heim6.tu-clausthal.de Indratmoko
Poerwanto
>cstone#uclink4.berkeley.edu Chris
Stone
>nmcnelly#bu.edu N.A.F.
McNelly
>hfung#CSUPomona.Edu Henry
Fung
>jdeutsch#osf1.gmu.edu Jeffrey
Deutsch
>jdresner#fas.harvard.edu Jonathan
Dresner
>jwalbrid#indiana.edu John
Walbridge
>moslem#MIT.EDU Tarik
Alatovic
>osborndo#pilot.msu.edu Donald Z
Osborn
>akhtars#ee.eng.ohio-state.edu Siraj
Akhtar
>daas#bobcat.ent.ohiou.edu Mutaz
Daas
>wajahat#bobcat.ent.ohiou.edu Wajahat A
Khan
>slipstk#olemiss.edu Gordon
Smith
>kopetsbj#cs.purdue.edu Brett J.
Kopetsky
>DELETE_Massoud.Ajami#sdsu.edu Massoud
Ajami
>fran#crhc.uiuc.edu Frances R.
Baker
>fbaker#ncsa.uiuc.edu Frank
Baker
>ashaikh#eecs.umich.edu Anees
Shaikh
>nedsaleh#engin.umich.edu Nedal
Saleh
>jrcole#umich.edu Juan
Cole
>nizam#umich.edu Nizam
Arain
>harinath#cs.umn.edu Raja R
Harinath
>hougen#cs.umn.edu Dean
Hougen
>whitl005#tc.umn.edu Jonathan R
Whitling
>dbowie#sas.upenn.edu David
Bowie
>aabdalla#pollux.usc.edu Ahmed
Abd-Allah
>endro#sys3.cs.usu.edu Endro
Kusumo
>malo#pop3.utoledo.edu Mohammed
Alo
>ASyamil#uoft02.utoledo.edu John
Doe
>pjohnson#vsla.edu K. Paul
Johnson
>aahmed#biology.biosci.wayne.edu Aamina
Ahmed
>nali#med.wayne.edu Nasima
Ali
>rufinus#mbe.ece.wisc.edu J
Rufinus
>Paul.S.Wolf#alum.wpi.edu Paul S.
Wolf
>vsaarine#cs.Helsinki.FI Vesa
Saarinen
>bmcewan#healthnet.mrc.gm Bob
McEwan.
>nmas#otenet.gr Nikos
Mastrakoulis
>khairol#tm.net.my Khairol Azmi
Yussof
>rinerin#tm.net.my shahrin shah bin abdul
rahman
>sl1pbx#ameritech.net Gene
Truto
>mbkafes#bestweb.net Milissa
Boyer=20
>davetayl#concentric.net David
Taylor
>islam662#CSSN.NET Sabeel
Ahmed</FONT>
>booko#earthlink.net Sharon
Bouchard
>oreocat#ETINTERNET.NET Gary L.
King
>ljmoore#freespace.net
LarryMoore
>sas#frontiernet.net
Stuart S
>baird#gate.net Baird
Stafford
>sinanju#gateway.net John
Noland
>lightspring#jps.net Thomas
Spellman
>rreini#mediaone.net Roger
Reini
>peterry#megalink.net
Peter=20
>bmathieu#micron.net Brent
Mathieu
>EPierce#ns.net Eric D.
Pierce
>jonboy#onlink.net Trevor
Tymchuk
>r.marsou#pmail.net Robert
Marsou
>RPittman#postmark.net Richard
Pittman
>trhan#serv.net Teri
Rhan
>alhadid#SoftHome.net
Muhammad=20
>m-t-head#surfari.net Lloyd
Madansky
>ayloush#usa.net Hussam
Ayloush
>ceo4life#usa.net Harry
Clinkhammer
>Toadis#usa.net Andres Gutierrez de
Cos
>tommycarter#usa.net Tommy
Carter
>emilyjackson#webtv.net Emily
Jackson
>kaitlin_forrest#zensearch.net Kaitlin
Forrest
>irina#rempt.xs4all.nl Irina
Rempt
>forumbahai#es.co.nz Steve
Marshall
>iio#iio.org Islamic Information
Office
>irshad#irshad.org Muhammad
Irshad
>peewee#scc.mi.org Jason
Wright
>barthelmes#studentcenter.org Sophia
Barthelmes
>andrew#erlenstar.demon.co.uk Andrew
Gierth
>neil#nkelley.demon.co.uk neil
kelley
>Chambers#fetchmail.co.uk Scott
Chambers
>SamtheMan#postmaster.co.uk
SamTHEMan
>
>Voted NO
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
>mansouri#one.net.au Shahab
Mansouri
>dany.steyaert#ping.be Dany
Steyaert
>carol_bowie#mindlink.bc.ca David
Bowie
>towfiq#401kforum.com Mark
Towfiq
>AErfani#aol.com
>Hlpflhanna#aol.com Debbie
Jenkins
>Mac0000013#aol.com
>Starlet001#aol.com Katherine
Mayerovitch
>kimdv#best.com Kim
DeVaughn
>stainles#bga.com Dwight
Brown
>david.ritscher#bigfoot.com David
Ritscher
>r.woodlock#bigfoot.com Rachel
Butson
>lcs#zk3.dec.com Larry
Smith
>camm#enhanced.com Camm
Maguire
>caryenochr#enochsvision.com Enoch's Vision, Inc. (Cary Enoch
R.)
>wcol#erols.com William
Collins
>tom-hodges#geocities.com Tom
Hodges
>aromatica45#hotmail.com Victoria
Williams
>bearone1#hotmail.com Gary
Rosenbaum
>fazlollahi#hotmail.com Ahmad
Fazlollahi
>rachel_t#hotmail.com Theresa
McClendon
>screamingb#hotmail.com Screaming
Banshee
>swatchking#hotmail.com Fred
Tague
>jjam#spica.hpl.hp.com Jim
Jam
>nightbrd#humboldt1.com Douglas
Myers
>shohre#itis.com Shohreh
Mansouri
>bruce.limber#juno.com Bruce D.
Limber
>lpolk01#juno.com Linda L
Polk
>palmtop#mailtag.com Bonnie
Blanford
>djull#mindspring.com David
Jull
>slr1bpz#mindspring.com George
McCoy
>bfwkendo#netvigator.com Brian
Walker
>chriseb#nortelnetworks.com Chris
Ebenezer
>dc#panix.com David W.
Crawford
>persia#persia.com Robert
Moldenhauer
>Sandy-Allan#dial.pipex.com Sandy
Allan
>billh#samoatelco.com Bill
Hyman
>doug.obrien#the-spa.com Doug
O'Brien
>manialip#wowmail.com Kate
Sparks
>francis_uy#yahoo.com
F Uy
>Ekkehard.Uthke#gmx.de Ekkehard
Uthke
>naddy#mips.rhein-neckar.de Christian
Weisgerber
>cnelson#calpoly.edu Craig
Nelson
>aull#ll.mit.edu Brian
Aull
>rick#bcm.tmc.edu Richard H.
Miller
>kohli#mail.ameritel.net Pat
Kohli
>helenko#bellsouth.net Helen
Oney
>cybrmage#dave-world.net Bud
Polk
>rogerb#foxinternet.net Roger
Borseth
>ellis#ftel.net Rick
Ellis
>vpdura#hiwaay.net Vic
Dura
>Scarecro#ime.net Tim
Griffin
>jcornell#lightspeed.net John B.
Cornell
>verbrugh#pionet.net Albert
Verbrugh
>okoboji#prodigy.net
Loriann=20
>mehyar22#siol.net Mehyar
Badii-Azandahi
>scooter#taranaki.ac.nz
>NUFAITH#wcnet.org Dennis
Rule
>tr8770#bristol.ac.uk Tom
Richards
>srm103#york.ac.uk Simon
Mawhinney
>merlin#A470.demon.co.uk Darren Wyn
Rees
>Graham#fragrant.demon.co.uk Graham
Sorenson
>leili#Justice.Medford.MA.US Leili
Towfigh
>
>Abstained
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
>sw.unit02.msn#cwix.com Sue Klein
Gennario
>chris#kzim.com Christopher Robin
Zimmerman
>tikal#mailcity.com Samandar
Roshan-Zamir
>neilc#wallaby.stanford.edu Neil
Crellin
>schuette#s.imap.itd.umich.edu Wade
Schuette
>rick#helix.nih.gov Rick
Troxel
>
>Invalid ballots
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
>afshin.afrashteh#utoronto.ca Afshin
Afrashteh
> ! Disqualified
>webmaster#muntada.com Abdul-Rashid
Abdullah
> ! Ineligible address
>ALTAFH#aol.com
> ! No vote statement in message
>MeCraigB#aol.com Craig
Boyd
> ! No vote statement in message
>LISTSERV#H-NET.MSU.EDU L-Soft list server at H-Net - Humanities On-Line
(1.8c)
> ! No vote statement in message
>lbhollin#ust.hk Richard
Hollinger
> ! No vote statement in message
>smeanver#tm.net.my
smeanver
> ! No vote statement in message
>mezmer#globalnet.co.uk
Bob/Zannie
> ! No vote statement in message
>
>To restore the email addresses above, pipe the ack list through the
>following command:
>
> sed -e 's/#/@/g'
>
>--
>Voting question & problems: Dave Cornejo <dave@dogwood.com>
>Voting address: vote@dogwood.com
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Monday, January 11, 1999 6:43 PM
To: afshin.afrashteh@utoronto.ca
Subject: Re: RESULT: talk.religion.bahai passes 218:63
Afshin,
I couldn't agree more!
I better not say this on news.groups right now,
but thanks for your and your fellow Muslims' help.
It's hard to be sure, but I count possibly 48 Muslim
YES votes.
Fred
-----Original Message-----
From: afshin.afrashteh@utoronto.ca <afshin.afrashteh@utoronto.ca>
Newsgroups: news.groups
Date: Monday, January 11, 1999 4:00 PM
Subject: Re: RESULT: talk.religion.bahai passes 218:63
>In article <916026106.17084@isc.org>,
> Dave Cornejo <dave@dogwood.com> wrote:
>> RESULT
>> unmoderated group talk.religion.bahai passes 218:63
>>
>
>Peace be upon those that receive true guidance,
>
>Well I have to say I am extremely pleased and thank the Lord that this
passed.
>Everyone who voted YES deserves credit (whether my muslim brothers and
>sisters or bahai's or for that matter other non-baha'is) for being
open-minded
>and not afraid of open discussion.
>
>I campaigned for the YES side based on a principle...that I and other
muslims
>should have the right and freedom to post articles on the truth of Islam
>whenever we wished.
>
>I will be sure to take full advantage of this new development come summer
time
>:) For now...back to studies it is....wheeeewwww!
>
>PS...it seems that soc.religion.bahai has been on a downward trend in terms
of
>articles posted there lately. May this new development
(talk.religion.bahai)
>serve as the nail in the coffin for that cesspool of censorship.
>
>Peace,
>
>Afshin Afrashteh
>
>Answering Bahaullah
>https://www.geocities.com/pentagon/3016/main.htm
>
>-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
>https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
----------
From: Dentler[SMTP:pcdd3@mw.sisna.com]
Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 1999 2:41 AM
To: FG@hotmail.com
Subject: conference of the birds
Greetings. I recently finished reading this book as well as stumbling
upon the bcca.org site. You mentioned that you taught this text in a
course. I would be very interested in learning more about this text. Is
there anyway I could purchase lecture notes, handouts, supplemental
sources, etc. that you used while teaching? It would be greatly
appreciated.
Best,
David
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 1999 8:48 AM
To: pcdd3@mw.sisna.com
Subject: Re: conference of the birds
Thank you for your interest but I've learnt not to
respond to Bahais through private email. I'd be
happy to discuss it on the newly created
talk.religion.bahai or alt.religion.bahai. The former
should be widely available within a week or so.
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm
On alt.religion.bahai and AOL, Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
-----Original Message-----
From: Dentler <pcdd3@mw.sisna.com>
To: FG@hotmail.com <FG@hotmail.com>
Date: Monday, January 11, 1999 7:40 PM
Subject: conference of the birds
>Greetings. I recently finished reading this book as well as stumbling
>upon the bcca.org site. You mentioned that you taught this text in a
>course. I would be very interested in learning more about this text. Is
>there anyway I could purchase lecture notes, handouts, supplemental
>sources, etc. that you used while teaching? It would be greatly
>appreciated.
>
>Best,
>David
>
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 1999 9:19 AM
To: Dave Cornejo
Cc: Ron House; Frank Baker; Fran Baker; John Walker
Subject: RESULT: talk.religion.bahai
Dave,
Thanks for taking on such a stormy proposal. I know it
hasn't been easy for you and probably often a royal
pain....
Has the RESULT been sent to soc.religion.bahai?
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm
On alt.religion.bahai and AOL, Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: Fran Baker[SMTP:fran@crhc.uiuc.edu]
Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 1999 12:36 PM
To: FG
Cc: Dave Cornejo; Ron House; Frank Baker; John Walker
Subject: Re: RESULT: talk.religion.bahai
FG wrote:
>
> Dave,
>
> Thanks for taking on such a stormy proposal. I know it
> hasn't been easy for you and probably often a royal
> pain....
>
> Has the RESULT been sent to soc.religion.bahai?
>
> FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
> https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm
> On alt.religion.bahai and AOL, Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
Dear Fred, Ron, John, Frank, Dave,
I am SO happy that the vote succeeded. I wish we could get
together and exchange hugs. I feel so good about this.
I feel the newsgroup will be a chink to let light in
(though perhaps other stuff, too, but it's an imperfect world).
Love and good wishes for the future to you all,
Fran
----------
From: John Walker[SMTP:johnwalker@ozemail.com.au]
Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 1999 7:22 AM
To: Fran Baker; Frank Baker; FG; Ron House
Subject: Successful vote for TRB
Dear fellow proponents
Even though I had a very limited role to play in the process of establishing
Talk Religion Baha'i I am very happy to see that the vote was successful and
congratulate you all in its success.
Unfortunately I don't have very much spare time and you probably won't see
many contributions from me on TRB, nevertheless, I hope that the quality of
the debate is both positive and highly stimulating and conducted in a true
Baha'i spirit that will attract the hearts of people and assist them to come
to a better understanding of the knowledge and love revealed by Baha'u'llah
and which is so sorely needed in the world at this time.
John Walker
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 1999 7:38 AM
Subject: Bahai threats
"The Bahai Technique":
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/technique.htm
For the non-Bahai or news.groupie, I am responding to this
message. Bahais have repeatedly, consistently attempted
to threaten, intimidate, and coerce other Bahais and non-Bahais
through "private" email. I agree with the many, many observers
over the last few years that the only way to prevent such tactics
by Bahais is the open light of day.... where all may read and
judge for themselves. Important links might be:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/hate.htm
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/AOL.htm
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/Maneck1.htm
Among others....
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm
On alt.religion.bahai and AOL, Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 1999 7:49 AM
To: Fran Baker; Frank Baker; Ron House; Dave Cornejo
Subject: Re: RESULT: talk.religion.bahai passes 218:63
I'd like to thank Dave Cornejo, the votetaker, for
volunteering to conduct this 3rd interest poll for
talk.religion.bahai. Usenet truly depends on such people
contributing their time and labor for the benefit of others.
I also thank all of the news.groups regulars who have
participated and contributed in one way or another
during this 3rd interest poll and/or the previous two polls
over the last two years.
I and other Bahais and non-Bahais are deeply indebted
to all of you for your help and advice.
Thank you....
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm
On alt.religion.bahai and AOL, Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 1999 7:49 AM
Subject: Re: RESULT: talk.religion.bahai passes 218:63
I'd like to thank Dave Cornejo, the votetaker, for
volunteering to conduct this 3rd interest poll for
talk.religion.bahai. Usenet truly depends on such people
contributing their time and labor for the benefit of others.
I also thank all of the news.groups regulars who have
participated and contributed in one way or another
during this 3rd interest poll and/or the previous two polls
over the last two years.
I and other Bahais and non-Bahais are deeply indebted
to all of you for your help and advice.
Thank you....
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm
On alt.religion.bahai and AOL, Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 1999 8:09 AM
To: John Walker; Fran Baker; Frank Baker; Ron House
Subject: Re: Successful vote for TRB
Re: "John Walker"
I don't believe you've had any role to play. You
never once posted a single message in a public
forum supporting trb nor did you even vote for
the newsgroup, so profound was your "support"
for it.
I've never been convinced that you were at all honest
in your involvement and remained unconvinced. I find
your message below quite contemptible....
Do not email me again....
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm
talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
-----Original Message-----
From: John Walker <johnwalker@ozemail.com.au>
To: Fran Baker <fran@crhc.uiuc.edu>; Frank Baker <fbaker@ncsa.uiuc.edu>;
FG <FG@hotmail.com>; Ron House <house@usq.edu.au>
Date: Wednesday, January 13, 1999 6:23 AM
Subject: Successful vote for TRB
>Dear fellow proponents
>
>Even though I had a very limited role to play in the process of
establishing
>Talk Religion Baha'i I am very happy to see that the vote was successful
and
>congratulate you all in its success.
>
>Unfortunately I don't have very much spare time and you probably won't see
>many contributions from me on TRB, nevertheless, I hope that the quality of
>the debate is both positive and highly stimulating and conducted in a true
>Baha'i spirit that will attract the hearts of people and assist them to
come
>to a better understanding of the knowledge and love revealed by Baha'u'llah
>and which is so sorely needed in the world at this time.
>
>John Walker
>
>
>
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 1999 9:00 AM
To: FG
Subject: Antinomies - Frodo, Prospero
Frodo:
"But I have been too deeply hurt, Sam. I tried to save the Shire,
and it has been saved, but not for me. It must often be so, Sam,
when things are in danger; some one has to give them up, lose
them, so that others may keep them. But you are my heir...."
Prospero:
"Now my charms are all o'erthrown,
And what strength I have's mine own,
Which is most faint....
But release me from my bands,
With the help of your good hands.
Gentle breath of yours my sails
Must fill, or else my project fails,
Which was to please. Now I want
Spirits to enforce, art to enchant;
And my ending is despair
Unless I be relieved by prayer,
Which pierces so, that it assaults
Mercy itself, and frees all faults.
As you from crimes would pardoned be,
Let your indulgence set me free."
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm
talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 1999 12:53 PM
Subject: talk.religion.bahai RESULT on soc.religion.bahai?
Has anyone seen the RESULT posted on soc.religion.bahai? It has
appeared on the other newsgroups listed in the CFV.
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm
talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: Ron House[SMTP:house@usq.edu.au]
Sent: Thursday, January 14, 1999 1:29 AM
To: FG
Subject: Re: Successful vote for TRB
FG wrote:
>
> Re: "John Walker"
>
> I don't believe you've had any role to play. You
> never once posted a single message in a public
> forum supporting trb nor did you even vote for
> the newsgroup, so profound was your "support"
> for it.
>
> I've never been convinced that you were at all honest
> in your involvement and remained unconvinced. I find
> your message below quite contemptible....
>
> Do not email me again....
Don't be a dill, Fred! I KNOW why John joined and where his time goes,
and people have told me that such a proponent made them think twice.
Anyway, a sign of a great person is to be gracious in victory.
--
Ron House house@usq.edu.au
You can only be right if you have the courage to be wrong.
----------
From: K. Paul Johnson[SMTP:pjohnson@vsla.edu]
Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 1999 5:40 PM
To: FG@hotmail.com
Subject: Congrats
Dear Fred,
I know you must be pleased with the results, as I am. Thanks for
all your effort on behalf of trb. I just hope the bastards
aren't cooking up some scheme to abort it. But the time is
almost up for that.
Schaut is a real piece of work! 5 personal attacks on me in one
day, a record. Think I'll start ignoring him again. Even though
he's a total asshole and deserves harassment since he's dished it
out so much, I'm softhearted and can't help feeling sorry for him
the way Tim is lambasting him. "Epistle to the Weasel" indeed.
Funny that Tim abuses him, I'm polite to him, but he abuses me
and not Tim. Wonder what's behind that. Well, he's shut up
today as far as I'm involved which is good to see.
Congratulations and let's hope the new newsgroup gets more
traffic than srb and arb combined!
Cheers,
Paul
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 1999 6:38 PM
To: K. Paul Johnson
Subject: Re: Congrats
<<File: Annotated NO voters - 3rd interest poll.txt>>
-----Original Message-----
From: K. Paul Johnson <pjohnson@vsla.edu>
To: FG@hotmail.com <FG@hotmail.com>
Date: Wednesday, January 13, 1999 4:40 PM
Subject: Congrats
>Dear Fred,
>
>I know you must be pleased with the results, as I am. Thanks for
>all your effort on behalf of trb. I just hope the bastards
>aren't cooking up some scheme to abort it. But the time is
>almost up for that.
Thanks. You're about the only person who has said anything
kind about it! I'm worrying too that they're up to something.
They always have been in the past.... I've done an Annotated
NO voters this time too but am waiting until trb is up and
running before posting it there and on arb. I'll attach it, though,
for you....
>
>Schaut is a real piece of work! 5 personal attacks on me in one
>day, a record. Think I'll start ignoring him again. Even though
>he's a total asshole and deserves harassment since he's dished it
>out so much, I'm softhearted and can't help feeling sorry for him
>the way Tim is lambasting him. "Epistle to the Weasel" indeed.
>Funny that Tim abuses him, I'm polite to him, but he abuses me
>and not Tim. Wonder what's behind that. Well, he's shut up
>today as far as I'm involved which is good to see.
I couldn't agree more with you about Schaut. If he shows
up again refer to him as "Schauting"-- Fran used it in email
with me last August and when I accused him of it a few
times he disappeared for months! Probably Reini and some
of the other literalists tell him to back off as well.
>
>Congratulations and let's hope the new newsgroup gets more
>traffic than srb and arb combined!
I appreciate it. Srb has really been on
the boards lately. If you would, point out too that they
haven't posted the RESULT as they should have as
members of Usenet and participants all along otherwise
in this poll. I love to kick Hyman every chance I get....
Srb shot itself in the foot (or ass) this time around in
a number of ways. But I'm waiting for the 10 period to
expire before I really get into it.
Thanks for all your help too, Paul. The first time I was
really a lone voice. You and others have really made
the difference....
Fred
>
>Cheers,
>
>Paul
>
----------
From: Ron House[SMTP:house@usq.edu.au]
Sent: Thursday, January 14, 1999 1:06 AM
To: FG; Dave Cornejo; Frank Baker; Fran Baker; John Walker
Subject: Re: RESULT: talk.religion.bahai
I wanted to thank all of my co-proponents, and you, Dave, for all the
hard work and efforts that have gone into this proposal. I know it has
been a hard road and tempers have frayed and feelings been hurt at
times, but the result shows that we all can co-operate and achieve
results. When the NG is actually formed, I suggest that all of us
proponents start with a fresh slate and make it a happy, pleasant place
for people to go.
At long last we can start discussing issues rather than why we haven't
got a place to discuss issues... :-)
--
Ron House house@usq.edu.au
You can only be right if you have the courage to be wrong.
----------
From: Ron House[SMTP:house@usq.edu.au]
Sent: Thursday, January 14, 1999 1:16 AM
To: Fran Baker
Cc: FG; Frank Baker; John Walker
Subject: Re: RESULT: talk.religion.bahai
Hi Fran,
> I am SO happy that the vote succeeded. I wish we could get
> together and exchange hugs. I feel so good about this.
> I feel the newsgroup will be a chink to let light in
> (though perhaps other stuff, too, but it's an imperfect world).
It's nice when things work out, especially as this one was a long time
coming. I do think a major tragedy was averted for the Baha'i Faith, as
failure would have resulted in a huge amount of accusations of
intolerance and censorship. It will be interesting to see the pattern of
posting to the NG. I notice that SRB struggles these days to get half a
dozen posts a day, but I can not believe that that is the limit of
world-wide interest in the Baha'i Faith. Clearly a better forum is
needed, and TRB can be IT!
We have to start well, though. People have criticised Fred for posting
so much to alt.religion.bahai, but Fred has had to cross-post other
people's posts to mailing lists etc., which people don't seem to take
account of. It would be good if we get a wide variety of participants
instead of having the bulk of the articles from just a few. I believe it
is up to us to set the tone, avoid acrimony, avoid discussing the past
history of this proposal, and focus on the future. But like you, Fran, I
believe we can do it.
--
Ron House house@usq.edu.au
You can only be right if you have the courage to be wrong.
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, January 14, 1999 7:44 AM
To: Fran Baker; Frank Baker; Ron House; Dave Cornejo
Subject: Re: RESULT: talk.religion.bahai passes 218:63
The RESULT posting has not yet appeared on
soc.religion.bahai as it should.
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On
talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, January 14, 1999 7:44 AM
Subject: Re: RESULT: talk.religion.bahai passes 218:63
The RESULT posting has not yet appeared on
soc.religion.bahai as it should.
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On
talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Friday, January 15, 1999 8:49 AM
To: Fran Baker; Frank Baker; Ron House; Dave Cornejo
Subject: Re: RESULT: talk.religion.bahai passes 218:63
From the RFD:
DISTRIBUTION:
This RFD has been posted to the following newsgroups:
news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,soc.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai,talk.religion.misc,soc.rights.human
From the CFV:
Date: 1998/12/04
Forums: news.announce.newgroups, news.groups, alt.religion.bahai,
soc.rights.human, talk.religion.misc
Dave Cornejo had removed srb and posted the RFD and CFV
to soc.religion.bahai via email. It only stands to reason that
it should also be done for the RESULT. If soc.religion.bahai
is a participating member of Usenet, I don't see why they
should object to sharing the news with their members and
welcoming a newly formed group.
Because soc.religion.bahai has been suppressing all messages
from me since May 29, 1998, I hardly seem to be the person
now to post the RESULT.
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Friday, January 15, 1999 8:49 AM
Subject: Re: RESULT: talk.religion.bahai passes 218:63
From the RFD:
DISTRIBUTION:
This RFD has been posted to the following newsgroups:
news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,soc.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai,talk.religion.misc,soc.rights.human
From the CFV:
Date: 1998/12/04
Forums: news.announce.newgroups, news.groups, alt.religion.bahai,
soc.rights.human, talk.religion.misc
Dave Cornejo had removed srb and posted the RFD and CFV
to soc.religion.bahai via email. It only stands to reason that
it should also be done for the RESULT. If soc.religion.bahai
is a participating member of Usenet, I don't see why they
should object to sharing the news with their members and
welcoming a newly formed group.
Because soc.religion.bahai has been suppressing all messages
from me since May 29, 1998, I hardly seem to be the person
now to post the RESULT.
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Friday, January 15, 1999 8:53 AM
Subject: fw Juan Cole on mass teaching & Maneck's AOL slander
Subj: Re: What's going on?
Date: 1/15/1999 2:09:31 AM Eastern Standard Time
From: jrcole@umich.edu (Juan Cole)
To: FG@aol.com (FG)
Dear Fred:
I became a Baha'i in 1972, when the news of the entry by troops in South
Carolina was still fresh, and all of us were excited by it. What I did not
know was that by then the NSA had already pulled the plug on the process.
They ordered the traveling teachers, like Mag Carney, out (and sanctioned
those who did not obey this order), and pulled monetary resources out of
teaching and put it into 'consolidation.' There is no doubt that the NSA
did stop the process; I have done interviews with a number of eyewitnesses
of the time. A reporter who interviewed an NSA member told me that the
latter admitted that 'we [the NSA] put the skids on it.'
Chain conversion, like chain immigration, is a spontaneous process. It
spreads by word of mouth. You had entire Baptist congregations declaring
for Baha'u'llah, the minister included. You saw notices outside Black
churches advertising 'Baha'i meeting on Sunday Night at 7:00 pm.' There
were some declaration cards that were signed in error. I know of no
scientific study of what proportion of them were. Robert Stockman has
suggested that the proportion has been exaggerated.
But when you stop chain conversion, it can often go cold altogether. It is
over with. Forever. The immediate networks and conditions that made it
possible evaporate. This is what happened in the South. The NSA stomped
out entry by troops, with deliberation and aforethought (and over the
objections of a minority of NSA members like Dick Betts).
Why exactly the NSA stopped the process is not entirely clear. Obviously,
the more conservative members of that body have tended to be very worried
about losing their tight control over local communities, and the entry of
large numbers of poor, rural, largely illiterate Blacks challenged their
system of control mechanisms (you can't dissolve a sassy LSA if there isn't
an LSA at all). Eyewitnesses did report to me hearing conservative NSA
members speaking of their worries over loss of control. One Baha'i I knew
personally who had done travel teaching in SC in 1971 mentioned to me
problems with charismatic converts who raised alarums in Wilmette about the
possibility for schism.
Eric Pierce reported that one prominent African-American believer active in
the teaching work was convinced that it was stopped because of fears in
Wilmette that the community would be swamped by the newcomers and that they
might in turn elect a new NSA. I have lots of evidence that over the years
the NSA's more repressive actions have often been motivated by fears of
being unseated, and certainly a big demographic shift of this nature must
have raised such fears. Whether they were the primary reason for the NSA
to shut down the conversion process, I do not know. That some informed
veteran Baha'is of the time thought they were is indisputable.
Dan Jordan told one friend of mine that in the mid-60s the NSA had voted on
whether to punish a southern white Baha'i who refused to desegregate his
shop. The NSA decided to take away his administrative rights. But
Charlotte Linfoot had opposed this action. It seems to me incredible that
in 1970-71 Charlotte was suddenly just delighted with the prospect of the
influx of tens of thousands of poor, rural African-Americans (whom she had
been content to have suffer Jim Crow segregation at the hands of *Baha'i*
white shopkeepers on a few years before). Or that the idea that they might
come to dominate the NSA thrilled her. Maneck has said that the NSA would
have been delighted to see the South Carolina converts show up at national
convention. Can she cite even one contemporary document, or even an
interview with a principal, which would corroborate this unlikely
proposition? It is a typical characteristic of propaganda that baseless
allegations are put forward that seem contrary to common sense, which their
authors hope will become plausible by virtue of the fallacy of authority or
through constant repetition.
I have said before that I personally think that the issues in control
outweighed the issues in race among most of the NSA members (but not all).
I think both issues were present. What is truly amazing is that on the
whole the NSA managed to a) stop this spontaneous chain conversion, b)
avoid most of the community coming to know that they had stopped it, c)
avoid any accountability whatsoever for doing so, and d) to implement a
policy of disrupting further such outbreaks of spontaneous mass conversion,
which they have pursued behind the scenes ever since. Do you think, if a
referendum had been held in early 1971, a majority of US Baha'is would have
voted to deliberately *stop* the process of the entry by troops in the
South? Of course not. If the NSA had been so proud of what it did, it
wouldn't have virtually covered it up. House of Justice member Ali
Nakhjavani complained that this step set back the Baha'i faith in the U.S.
'by a generation.' He underestimated its impact.
But the real question is what can be learned from all this. The indication
is that the structure and functioning of Baha'i national elections actually
works against the best interests of the faith. The anxiety of sitting
members about being unseated has caused them to act repressively over and
over again. That is why I used to argue for term limits for NSA members,
and for the abolition of a paid Secretary. Someone who receives $150,000
or more per annum in cash and perquisites will naturally be worried about
losing that income. If the NSA members were unremunerated and knew they
would only be on for 3-5 years, then they would be less likely to worry
about being unseated, and would allow more free and open discourse and
teaching work in the community.
The current system is clearly a failure. If one subtracts the Iranian
immigrants, there are no more adult Baha'is in the US now than there were
in 1978. Many of the most capable Baha'is have been chased out of the
faith. And anyone who points out the problems is branded an enemy of the
faith.
So I just plead with the open-minded to ask themselves this question: What
went wrong in 1971 such that the entry by troops was stopped? And how
could things be changed so as to make this sort of ultra-conservative
cautiousness less of a constraint on community growth in the future? The
point is not to condemn what happened in the past, but to make things
better. The Baha'i faith has a great deal to offer the world. Its leaders
are ensuring that its light is hidden under a bushel.
cheers Juan Cole
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Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 02:10:39 -0500
To: FG@aol.com (FG)
From: Juan Cole <jrcole@umich.edu>
Subject: Re: What's going on?
In-Reply-To: <19990114065156.27856.00000472@ng28.aol.com>
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----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Friday, January 15, 1999 8:57 AM
To: K. Paul Johnson
Subject: Maneck responds
Subject: Re: 2nd: Maneck on AOL about YOU!
Date: 1/14/1999 9:49 PM Eastern Standard Time
From: Smaneck
Message-id: <19990114214936.09878.00001354@ng-fi1.aol.com>
Dear Paul,
I hardly see anything which I posted in my introductory remarks which is all
that different than what you yourself have said. Nor do I see how they could
be interpreted as calmunies. For many of us the distinction between "serial
monogamists" and "stable polygamists" in the spiritual realm is not all that
important. The major purpose of my own introductory remarks was mostly to
point out that you were not an unbiased observer but rather a disgruntled
ex-Baha'i with a distaste for authority and a preference for the spiritual
"flea market" approach of New Age Movements. I stand by that
characteriazation. Or would you like to tell us you are not an ex-Baha'i,
that you are pefectly happy with the Faith the way it is, or that obedience
to authority presents no problems for you? If so, I will cheerfully admit
my mistake and retract my remarks.
Susan
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Friday, January 15, 1999 8:58 AM
To: K. Paul Johnson
Subject: 2nd maneck
Subject: Re: Maneck on AOL about YOU!
Date: 1/14/1999 9:32 PM Eastern Standard Time
From: Smaneck
Message-id: <19990114213227.09878.00001339@ng-fi1.aol.com>
K. Paul Johnson wrote:
>>PS-- All the ins and outs of the Talisman situation should be
>>discussed on talk.religion.bahai, where some of the principals
>>are likely to be. I'm copying this to Juan Cole so he will know
>>of your personal attack, and may comment himself.
Dear Paul,
I discussed the article here because it was posted here. Had it not been, I
certainly would not have brought it up! When you write things like this for
publicly distribution their contents will be discussed and critiqued
publicly. It is truly amazing to me the way you guys will say anything about
anyone and then scream "backbiting" when anyone responds to your
misrepresentations! But it was this hypocrisy that caused me to eventually
begin see
through all of this in the first place. Baha'u'llah urged the rulers to
observe justice *adl* and the learned fairmindedness *infsaf*, but I found
no fairmindedness among those who styled themselves "scholars."
Susan
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Friday, January 15, 1999 9:25 AM
To: Fran Baker; Frank Baker; Ron House; Dave Cornejo
Subject: Re: RESULT: talk.religion.bahai passes 218:63
The "Bogus Usenet Groups" regularly posted by David
Lawrence states:
talk.religion.bahai failed vote (use soc.religion.bahai)
I realize he'll know how to take care of this listing and send
out the command to properly establish talk.religion.bahai
but will the former bogus status create any kind of special
problem, such as administrative reluctance to add it?
It has been five days since the RESULT was posted on
January 10th by Dave Cornejo. What happens now?
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Friday, January 15, 1999 9:25 AM
Subject: Re: RESULT: talk.religion.bahai passes 218:63
The "Bogus Usenet Groups" regularly posted by David
Lawrence states:
talk.religion.bahai failed vote (use soc.religion.bahai)
I realize he'll know how to take care of this listing and send
out the command to properly establish talk.religion.bahai
but will the former bogus status create any kind of special
problem, such as administrative reluctance to add it?
It has been five days since the RESULT was posted on
January 10th by Dave Cornejo. What happens now?
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Friday, January 15, 1999 9:38 AM
To: Dave Cornejo
Subject: RESULT on soc.religion.bahai?
Dave,
Please let me know whether or not you emailed the
RESULT to soc.religion.bahai. It's important for the
historical record.
Thanks.
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: Dave Cornejo[SMTP:dave@dogwood.com]
Sent: Friday, January 15, 1999 11:00 AM
To: FG
Cc: fran@crhc.uiuc.edu; fbaker@ncsa.uiuc.edu; house@usq.edu.au; dave@dogwood.com
Subject: Re: RESULT: talk.religion.bahai passes 218:63
Frederick,
I would appreciate it if you would not send me email anymore. I will
see what happened to the soc.religion.bahai posting if/when I have
time - despite your feelings on the matter it is hardly important for
the record to get it posted there. The "record" resides on an isc.org
ftp site and it is automatically maintained.
WRT when the group gets created; I don't know when that will happen,
I don't and can't issue that message. Tale does that and quite
frankly he's so busy right now I really wouldn't expect an answer any
time soon. Emailing him will only annoy him and not acheive
anything. It is in his queue and when he gets to it, it will be
done. I'm sorry, but that's the state of Usenet today.
As for me, my participation in the process for talk.religion.bahai is
all but over - you got your group passed so be happy and patient.
--
Dave Cornejo - Dogwood Media, Fremont, California
General Magician & Registered Be Developer
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Friday, January 15, 1999 6:20 PM
Subject: fw K. Paul Johnson re The Spirit of Truth
-----Original Message-----
From: K. Paul Johnson <pjohnson@vsla.edu>
To: FG@hotmail.com <FG@hotmail.com>
Date: Friday, January 15, 1999 10:19 AM
Subject: The Spirit of Truth
>Dear Fred,
>
>This is my swan song on arb; will be on trb when it comes up, and
>hopefully able to post directly. Please forward for me one last
>time:
>
>The Spirit of Truth
>
>Arguing over whether Muhammad or Baha'u'llah is the "Spirit of
>Truth" of the Farewell Discourses in the Gospel of John is quite
>misguided, as most any Christian would tell you. Not for
>dogmatic reasons of not wanting to accept subsequent religions,
>but simply because of the text and context of the quote. Jesus
>is most emphatically *not* telling people "Wait 600 or 1800
>years, and then a man will be sent from God with a message." He
>is saying "as soon as I depart, you will have direct access to
>the Father through the Spirit of Truth." I'll quote from my own
>book Edgar Cayce in Context where this is discussed, because
>Cayce most frequently recommended the Farewell Discourses
>(chapters 14 through 17) of all Bible passages:
>
>In dozens of readings, Cayce recommended study of one small
>section of the Bible which he said contained the essential
>spiritual message of his own work. The fourteenth through
>seventeenth chapters of the Gospel of John are known as the
>"Farewell discourses." This is a core text for "paracletic"
>Christian theosophy, asserting the interpenetration of the
>Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit, and the soul of the believer.
>After Jesus says at the conclusion of chapter 13 that he is going
>where his disciples cannot follow, he reassures them that this
>need not deprive them of his presence: "Let not your hearts be
>troubled, ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's
>house are many mansions; if it were not so I would have told you.
>I go to prepare a place for you." When Thomas asks how the
>disciples could know the way without Jesus to show them, he
>answers "I am the way, the truth, and the life; no man cometh
>unto the Father, but my me. If ye had known me, you would have
>known my father also; and from henceforth ye know him, and have
>seen him." Philip then asks to be shown the Father, to which
>Jesus replies that those who had seen him had seen the Father,
>for "I am in the Father, and the Father in me...the Father that
>dwelleth in me, he doeth the works...He that believeth on me, the
>works that I do shall he do also, and greater works than these
>shall he do..." Jesus then promises that the Father will send a
>Counselor, the Spirit of truth, and manifest himself to all who
>love him and keep his commandments.
>
>Chapter 15 opens with the metaphor of Jesus as the true vine, the
>Father as the husbandman, and the believer as the branch. "I am
>the vine, ye are the branches. He that abideth in me, and I in
>him, the same bringeth forth much fruit, without me ye can do
>nothing." Disciples are not servants of Christ but friends, for
>he has shared all his knowledge of the Father with them. But
>this friendship will bring persecution; in chapter 16, Jesus
>develops the theme that terrible hatred will afflict the
>disciples, but reiterates that the Spirit of truth will be sent
>to guide them into all truth, closing with the promise that "In
>the world ye shall have tribulation, but be of good cheer; I have
>overcome the world.." In the seventeenth chapter, Jesus
>announces that the hour of his sacrifice has come, but that no
>outward separation can break the bond between him and his
>friends, which will extend to all they convert after his death.
>"Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall
>believe in me through their word, that they may all be one; as
>thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one
>in us: that the world may believe that thou has sent me. And the
>glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be
>one, even as we are one; I in them and thou in me, that they may
>be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou has
>sent me and hast loved them, as thou has loved me."
>
>There are valid historical questions about whether Jesus really
>said any of this, since John was the last of the four gospels
>and has quite distinctive emphases. But whether or not he spoke
>these words, the promise conveyed in them has nothing to do with
>the transcendent God of Islam and Baha'i, or with some far-off
>messenger with a new set of laws. It is about the immanent God
>of Jesus himself, whose immediate disciples are promised that
>they can experience the same immanence and do even greater good
>deeds. Jesus says "God and I are within you, and you are my friend and my
>equal." Muhammad and Baha'u'llah say "God is without you, I am
>in a privileged position closer to God than you are, and you have
>to do what I say to get right with God." Take your choice. But
>consider that "gospel" means "good news" and only one of these
>options seems like particularly good news.
>
>Cheers,
>Paul
>
----------
From: Juan Cole[SMTP:jrcole@umich.edu]
Sent: Saturday, January 16, 1999 4:27 PM
To: FG
Subject: Re: Fw: fw Juan Cole on mass teaching & Maneck's AOL slander
1) I have never said that the motive or even a motive of the NSA in
closing down the mass teaching in the South in the early '70s was 'racism.'
It can be alleged all anyone likes that I have said this, but it cannot
be demonstrated, because I have not. I have simply reported that some
African-Americans at the time feared that such considerations entered in,
and I have specifically admitted that they may well have been wrong. It
seems to me, given the NSA's record, that without any doubt whatsoever a
kind of paternalism was involved.
There is evidence that Charlotte Linfoot was consistently unsympathetic to
Baha'i involvement in the civil rights movement from the lunch counter
demonstrations of 1960 forward, and I am afraid the interviewing I've done
with people who knew her leads me strongly to suspect that her quietism
acted as a screen for discomfort with uppity Blacks. Whether this feeling
entered into her vote on the South Carolina process, I am happy to admit I
do not know. I am glad that it is now uncontested that the NSA did shut
down the mass conversions, because only once that is established can there
then be reasoned consultation on what the full range of motives for that
was, and whether that was a good thing. I think you can imagine what
Ruhiyyih Khanum thought about it.
2) Bill Davis in one of his interrogations of the Dialogue editors in
spring, 1988, specifically said that the NSA had been worried that 'A
Modest Proposal' might come across to the delegates as a critique of the
sitting NSA's record (enrollments had fallen off drastically and virtually
no money was being put into teaching), and cost some of them election.
Only the poor naifs who have never actually had anything serious to do with
Wilmette are under the impression that no NSA member cares if he or she is
reelected. Some of these elected officials are drawing substantial money
out of the faith. The men all think they have a shot at getting elected to
the UHJ, and moving up to salaries in the large six figures as well as
enormous power in a community of 3 million. It is worries about being
reelected that drives the poor things to be so repressive sometimes, which
hurts the community generally, and the community if it were smart would
find a way out of this bad situation.
3) I have never called 'the Baha'i faith' a 'cult' globally. I rather
like most Baha'is I have known, and I admire the values for which the
Baha'i faith stands. I'd like to see it succeed better than it has. My
definition of a cult is a religious organization that exercises undue
control over adherents and that engages in deviant practices. The Baha'i
faith is not deviant, though there is a certain amount of personal
corruption among its officials. In some communities, and at some levels,
the degree of control that officials attempt to gain over adherents is
troubling to me. In particular, I believe that in an open society like the
U.S., the practice of shunning is generally a cult marker (as you have it
among Jehovah's Witnesses, e.g.). Thus, what I would say is that in some
communities and among some officials there are cult-like behaviors among
Baha'is, and that there is more such cult-like behavior in the Baha'i
community than there is in the Episcopalian or Methodist or Unitarian
Universalist communinities.
4)
>It should be clear to anyone by now who has been following these discussion
>that what happened between certain academics and the Baha'i administration
>had little to do with scholarship *per se.*
Our current discussion cannot in fact shed any light whatsoever on the
issues that caused Haifa to launch false and outrageous heresy accusations
against a number of Baha'i academics and intellectuals in April, 1996, for
their email messages. (Such a tolerant, universal, loving, Baha'i-like
action!) One of the cheap polemical tricks used by some people is to
employ things I have said and stances I have taken since I was mysteriously
and suddenly assaulted as ex post facto justifications for the assault.
Some of Talisman@indiana.edu is up on the Web. Anyone who can read my
messages there and conclude that I was a covenant breaker is just a sicko.
Obviously, once the high administration revealed to me how weird they are,
I went on to critique them more seriously on the basis of this new
knowledge. But using these new critiques, by someone now an outsider, to
justify the initial assault is like saying the victim of an attempted rape
provoked the rape when she sprayed mace at her assailant.
>As the House of Justice wrote me on
>Feb. 8, 1998:
>
> "They sought to use the language, the occasions and the credibility of
>scholarly activity to lend a counterfeit authority to a private enterprise
>which was essentially ideological in nature and self-motivated in origin."
This sentence means absolutely nothing. It is obscurantist gobbledegook
written by someone very anti-intellectual, very malicious and not very
bright. 'Unduly vague' doesn't even come close! If this were a charge
against a criminal in a U.S. judicial proceeding it would be laughed out
of court.
I did not 'use' the language, 'occasions' (what does this mean--can't they
learn *English*?), or 'credibility' (this also seems awkward) of academic
scholarship. I *practiced* academic scholarship. I engaged my subject
with the tools of analysis, contextualization, and the weighting of
causality. I engaged in academic scholarship, in a sincere and frank
search for the truth as I saw it (which I thought was what a Baha'i was
*supposed* to do). I did this with regard to 19th century Iranian Baha'i
history. I did it with regard to 20th century American. If I got
something wrong, it would have been enough to present alternative evidence
and analysis for my consideration. As an academic scholar, I am always
open to the latter. Instead, I was presented with threats and demands I
fall silent on pain of being shunned. How nice, gentle, loving, tolerant
that was.
What does it mean that this so-called 'counterfeit' authority was being
lent to an enterprise that was 'self-motivated?' I was sending email
messages to friends. How could that not be 'self-motivated?' Which of you
reading this has sent email messages to friends about a subject of interest
to you in a way that was not 'self-motivated?' I fear that the word
'cult-like' leaps out from this phrase. Behavior cannot be
'self-motivated' in the Baha'i faith? Everything has to come from Central
Direction, a la the Bolsheviks?
And how were my talisman@indiana.edu messages any more or less
'ideological' than the messages of anyone else who posted there, including
the UHJ itself, which certainly at any one time has a collective 'ideology'
(even though it shouldn't, and this is not its prerogative)? I'll bet you
our friends in Haifa couldn't even *define* ideology in a way that made any
social science sense. The real problem was not 'ideology' but 'ideas.'
And the fact is that a majority on the UHJ (or maybe even a minority--the
institution doesn't act in a rationalized fashion) didn't *like* my ideas,
and they didn't want me sharing them publicly.
The problem is that my ideas, expressed as non-authoritative individual
opinion, were none of their business. They are only authorized to
legislate. They aren't historians, they aren't sociologists, and they
aren't even theologians. Some of them are electrical engineers. If they
had any sense whatsoever they would keep their opinions about things like
professional history to themselves, because no one is interested in what
some fundamentalist engineer thinks about history, regardless of what he's
managed to get himself elected to. And because they couldn't debate my
ideas, they took the creepy, lazy path and declared them heretical and
tried to make them taboo. In doing this they only made themselves look
ridiculous for all time. In a hundred years people will still be reading
my book on Baha'u'llah. In a hundred years no one will have heard of any
of the current House members.
>They go on to say:
>
>"Your own familiarity with these same persons' behaviour will have provided
>you with ample illustration of the violence being done by their public and
>private statements to Baha'u'llah's teachings,
O.K. Somebody give me a concrete example of some 'behavior' of mine that
did 'violence' to Baha'u'llah's teachings any time in the period August
1972-April 1996. Anything at all. These Baha'i officials don't have the
slightest idea what Baha'u'llah even stood for on most issues, and they
reverse him whenever they find him inconvenient.
>which they profess to honour,
I did honor Baha'u'llah's teachings when I was a Baha'i. Someone should
give me some evidence to the contrary. Some of the people these individuals
in Haifa have promoted have been real sleazeballs, so who are they to stand
in judgment of my profession of faith 1972-1996?
>and to the cause of scholarship, which they profess to serve.
I have spent my life in the cause of academic scholarship. I have never,
ever, done violence to its methods, its integrity, or its findings. In
fact, to agree to allow myself to be silenced or censored by the UHJ or NSA
and to withhold from the public my research findings, as they insisted,
would have been a very serious derogation of my professional duties and a
betrayal of the public trust. These people don't have any respect for
academic scholarship. They have never supported it in any way. The insist
it be vetted (and therefore distorted and made dishonest). They have
managed to throw out or alienate a majority of the Baha'i academics in
Middle East studies who have dared actually pursue their profession and
write something serious on Baha'i studies.
>We cannot separate method from spirit and character."
Again, the UHJ is not empowered to stand in judgment of the character of
Baha'is. It is supposed to be leading Baha'is to build Mashriqu'l-Adhkars,
according to `Abdul-Baha. It is supposed to be doing major
philanthropical and charitable work, according to Shoghi Effendi. It is
supposed to legislate laws. It can only sanction actual behavior, not
sincere non-authoritative expressions of individual conscience. This is
scriptural. In fact, the UHJ has become a center of tyranny, of
authoritarianism, of censorship, of repression, of imposed superstition and
dogma. It has almost completely betrayed everything the Baha'i holy
figures stood for. And it could not do that if there weren't some *very*
serious flaws in the character of its members. Everyone should please pray
for them, and for me.
cheers Juan Cole
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, January 16, 1999 9:23 AM
To: FG
Subject: Antinomies - Milosz
"It appears that my oeuvre is Christian and even (practically)
irreproachable according to the criteria of Catholic theology.
I am not so sure, though I like to hear this. Certainly, it stands
out against the background of twentieth century poetry, also
Polish poetry, which is agnostic or atheist. Yet the religious
content of my poems is not the result of design by a believer;
it grew out of my doubts, turmoil, and despair, as they
searched for a form. If not for a strong heretical seasoning,
the religious content would not have been there. Thus, my
resistance to being squeezed into the rubric of "Catholic
poet" was well founded."
Czeslaw Milosz, Road-side Dog
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, January 16, 1999 9:30 AM
To: Juan Cole
Subject: Fw: fw Juan Cole on mass teaching & Maneck's AOL slander
FYI
-----Original Message-----
From: Smaneck <smaneck@aol.com>
Newsgroups: alt.religion.bahai
Date: Saturday, January 16, 1999 1:43 AM
Subject: Re: fw Juan Cole on mass teaching & Maneck's AOL slander
>Let's look at Dr. Cole's post. He starts out with this statement about mass
>teaching in South Carolina,
>
>"There is no doubt that the NSA
>>did stop the process."
>
>No, there isn't. In fact as I recall we were just discussing the problems
that
>arose in South Carolina when this controversy erupted on the Board. I
myself
>had been involved in some of the mass teaching efforts during this period,
>although not the ones in South Carolina. The technique they tried to teach
us
>was to go up to someone on the street and start talking about the Baha'i
>teachings. We would mention a principle such as "equality of men and
>women." Then we would say "You believe in equality of men and women, don't
>you?" And we were supposed to nod our heads so they would nod their heads.
By
>the use of this techinique we would go through the Baha'i basics and then
fill
>out a declaration card for them and ask them to sign. It was the same
technique
>one generally uses to sale cars or vacum cleaners! We were told that when
we
>would go back to these people we might well find them hiding
>behind the door and we were also taught techiniques for what to do when
that
>happens.
>
>Now Dr. Cole has gone on record accusing the Baha'i Faith of being a cult,
yet
>he is critical of the Baha'i NSA for putting the skids on such cultish
>practices! He has also accused the NSA of exaggerating its membership roles
>when numbers of these do not participate in the community. Yet he objects
to
>the NSA stopping teaching projects that had declarants hiding behind the
doors
>rather than having to meet a Baha'i again! In California I was one of
>the few mass teachers that bothered to stay around for the "consolidation"
work
>and I can tell you there was very little to consolidate indeed. I had other
>friends who went pioneering to South Carolina to help consolidate. Some of
them
>became so disillusioned by what they saw there, they ended up leaving the
>Faith. To this day South Carolina has the lowest percentage of acitve
Baha'is
>relative to their overall numbers on paper.
>
>Juan writes:
>
>>Why exactly the NSA stopped the process is not entirely clear. Obviously,
>>the more conservative members of that body have tended to be very worried
>>about losing their tight control over local communities
>
>Notice how Dr. Cole phrases these two sentences. First he says it is "not
>entirely clear" why the NSA stopped the process but then he asserts
>categorically that "Obviously" they were "worried about losing their tight
>control over local communities." The only thing that is "obvious" to me is
that
>one of those assertions has to be false!
>
>But notice the implication of racism in how he words the rest of the
sentence:
>
>>the entry of
>>large numbers of poor, rural, largely illiterate Blacks challenged their
>>system of control mechanisms
>
>Juan goes on to say:
>
>>Eric Pierce reported that one prominent African-American believer active
in
>>the teaching work was convinced that it was stopped because of fears in
>>Wilmette that the community would be swamped by the newcomers and that
they
>>might in turn elect a new NSA.
>
>I see. And because one mass teacher, unhappy with the NSA decision to stop
the
>project speculates, on the basis of no evidence whatsoever, that the
members of
>the NSA were doing this because they were afraid of losing their (mostly
>unpaid) jobs to the votes of a bunch of "poor, rural, largely illiterate
>Blacks" then it must be true! No responsible academic would give any
credence
>to something like this, let alone publish such unsubstantiated
>allegations in an academic journal!
>
>> I have lots of evidence that over the years
>>the NSA's more repressive actions have often been motivated by fears of
>>being unseated,
>
>No doubt "evidence" as solid as the one he just presented!
>
>But this statement of Dr. Cole's is quite interesting. He writes:
>
>>Dan Jordan told one friend of mine that in the mid-60s the NSA had voted
on
>>whether to punish a southern white Baha'i who refused to desegregate his
>>shop. The NSA decided to take away his administrative rights. But
>>Charlotte Linfoot had opposed this action. It seems to me incredible that
>>in 1970-71 Charlotte was suddenly just delighted with the prospect of the
>>influx of tens of thousands of poor, rural African-Americans (whom she had
>>been content to have suffer Jim Crow segregation at the hands of *Baha'i*
>>white shopkeepers on a few years before).
>
>Let's consider what is being said here. It is the mid-60's when the
controversy
>over segregation in the deep south is at its height. What other religion
would
>have even considered punishing its members for refusing to desegregate
their
>private businesses? Keep in mind, that to this day, churches are the most
>segregated institution in America! And the egregationist in this case,
despite
>one person's objections was punished. Again, what other religion
>would have done this? Help me out Mahdi! What would happen in Islam? I know
>what the penalty is for drunkness or slander; 80 lashes. I know what the
>penalty is for fornification; 100 lashes. Pray tell me, what is the
punishment
>in Islam for racism?
>Now we have one person on that NSA who objected to these sanctions, no
doubt
>feeling that punishment was not the best way to bring about the elimination
of
>prejudice in the Baha'i community. On the basis of that evidence, Dr. Cole
>would have us believe, that the NSA would not want to see a large influx of
>black people into the Baha'i community!
>
> Maneck has said that the NSA would
>>have been delighted to see the South Carolina converts show up at national
>>convention.
>
>Actually, I was thinking of District Conventions where the delegates to the
>National Covention are elected. To have dominated the National Convention
South
>Carolina would have had to be given a lot more districts!
>
> Can she cite even one contemporary document, or even an
>>interview with a principal, which would corroborate this unlikely
>>proposition?
>
>Gee, Dr. Cole we can ask those people who were serving on the NSA at the
time
>how they would have felt about a large number of enthusiasitcally active
new
>converts showing up for convention! I'm sure they would be happy to tell
us.
>:-)
>
> It is a typical characteristic of propaganda that baseless
>>allegations are put forward that seem contrary to common sense, which
their
>>authors hope will become plausible by virtue of the fallacy of authority
or
>>through constant repetition.
>
>NO KIDDING! Dr. Cole is giving us such a prime example of just that.
>
>But Dr. Cole continues his constant and baseless repetition of the charge
that
>they must have stopped the mass teaching because they were afraid of being
>voted off the NSA! To support this he writes:
>
>>Someone who receives $150,000
>>or more per annum in cash and perquisites will naturally be worried about
>>losing that income.
>
>As if *anyone* on the NSA in the early '70's got anywhere near that amount
of
>money! In fact at present I think the only person who comes even close is
>likely the Afro-American who serves as Secretary-General.
>
>I frankly do not know whether or not the American NSA made the right
decision
>in stopping the mass teaching. I know from my own experience with it that I
>myself had grave misgivings about the rightness of what were doing. It
might
>have been better to have allowed to run its course, I don't know. What I do
>know is that the NSA had legitimate reasons for being concerned. And to
suggest
>that they were motivated by racism or fear of not being re-elected
>is nothing but sheer slander.
>
>It should be clear to anyone by now who has been following these discussion
>that what happened between certain academics and the Baha'i administration
had
>little to do with scholarship *per se.* As the House of Justice wrote me on
>Feb. 8, 1998:
>
> "They sought to use the language, the occasions and the credibility of
>scholarly activity to lend a counterfeit authority to a private enterprise
>which was essentially ideological in nature and self-motivated in origin."
>
>They go on to say:
>
>"Your own familiarity with these same persons' behaviour will have provided
you
>with ample illustration of the violence being done by their public and
private
>statements to Baha'u'llah's teachings, which they profess to honour, and to
the
>cause of scholarship, which they profess to serve. We cannot separate
method
>from spirit and character."
>
>Indeed it has.
>
>warmest,
>
>Susan Maneck
>
>"Lay not aside the fear of God, O ye the learned of the world, and judge
>fairly"
>Gleanings, p. 98
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>warmest,
>
>Susan
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, January 16, 1999 9:31 AM
To: Juan Cole
Subject: Fw: fw Juan Cole on mass teaching & Maneck's AOL slander
FYI
-----Original Message-----
From: david dorkin <ddorkin@aye.net>
Newsgroups: alt.religion.bahai
To: Smaneck <smaneck@aol.com>
Date: Saturday, January 16, 1999 3:02 AM
Subject: Re: fw Juan Cole on mass teaching & Maneck's AOL slander
>Your analysis is difficult to follow; Cole spoke of what "the more
>conservative members of that body" could have been expected to desire
>which allows for a more nuanced interplay of competing social actors and
>factors. It is not at all evident that this is contradictory.
>
> COLE:
>> >Why exactly the NSA stopped the process is not entirely clear.
Obviously,
>> >the more conservative members of that body have tended to be very
worried
>> >about losing their tight control over local communities
>
>MANECK:
>> Notice how Dr. Cole phrases these two sentences. First he says it is "not
>> entirely clear" why the NSA stopped the process but then he asserts
>> categorically that "Obviously" they were "worried about losing their
tight
>> control over local communities." The only thing that is "obvious" to me
is that
>> one of those assertions has to be false!
>
>> But notice the implication of racism in how he words the rest of the
sentence:
>>
>> >the entry of
>> >large numbers of poor, rural, largely illiterate Blacks challenged their
>> >system of control mechanisms
>
>The implication of racism is not at all evident. No part of that
>statement is out of place in any sociological document.
>
>> Juan goes on to say:
>>
>> >Eric Pierce reported that one prominent African-American believer active
in
>> >the teaching work was convinced that it was stopped because of fears in
>> >Wilmette that the community would be swamped by the newcomers and that
they
>> >might in turn elect a new NSA.
>>
>> I see. And because one mass teacher, unhappy with the NSA decision to
stop the
>> project speculates, on the basis of no evidence whatsoever, that the
members of
>> the NSA were doing this because they were afraid of losing their (mostly
>> unpaid) jobs to the votes of a bunch of "poor, rural, largely
illiterate
>> Blacks" then it must be true! No responsible academic would give any
credence
>> to something like this, let alone publish such unsubstantiated
>> allegations in an academic journal!
>
>
>If you mean to say that anecdotal evidence is inadmissable in general,
>you might have quite a few problems explaining Bahai texts and claims as
>well as many others.
>
>> > I have lots of evidence that over the years
>> >the NSA's more repressive actions have often been motivated by fears of
>> >being unseated,
>>
>> No doubt "evidence" as solid as the one he just presented!
>
>I would like to be referred to "evidence" concerning divine revelation,
>if you have a moment
>
>> But this statement of Dr. Cole's is quite interesting. He writes:
>>
>> >Dan Jordan told one friend of mine that in the mid-60s the NSA had voted
on
>> >whether to punish a southern white Baha'i who refused to desegregate his
>> >shop. The NSA decided to take away his administrative rights. But
>> >Charlotte Linfoot had opposed this action. It seems to me incredible
that
>> >in 1970-71 Charlotte was suddenly just delighted with the prospect of
the
>> >influx of tens of thousands of poor, rural African-Americans (whom she
had
>> >been content to have suffer Jim Crow segregation at the hands of
*Baha'i*
>> >white shopkeepers on a few years before).
>>
>> Let's consider what is being said here. It is the mid-60's when the
controversy
>> over segregation in the deep south is at its height. What other religion
would
>> have even considered punishing its members for refusing to desegregate
their
>> private businesses? Keep in mind, that to this day, churches are the most
>> segregated institution in America! And the egregationist in this case,
despite
>> one person's objections was punished. Again, what other religion
>> would have done this? Help me out Mahdi! What would happen in Islam? I
know
>> what the penalty is for drunkness or slander; 80 lashes. I know what the
>> penalty is for fornification; 100 lashes. Pray tell me, what is the
punishment
>> in Islam for racism?
>> Now we have one person on that NSA who objected to these sanctions, no
doubt
>> feeling that punishment was not the best way to bring about the
elimination of
>> prejudice in the Baha'i community. On the basis of that evidence, Dr.
Cole
>> would have us believe, that the NSA would not want to see a large influx
of
>> black people into the Baha'i community!
>
>I think a more nuanced view is being put forth here; the issue is one of
>organizational survival versus growth
>
>>
>> Maneck has said that the NSA would
>> >have been delighted to see the South Carolina converts show up at
national
>> >convention.
>>
>> Actually, I was thinking of District Conventions where the delegates to
the
>> National Covention are elected. To have dominated the National Convention
South
>> Carolina would have had to be given a lot more districts!
>>
>> Can she cite even one contemporary document, or even an
>> >interview with a principal, which would corroborate this unlikely
>> >proposition?
>>
>> Gee, Dr. Cole we can ask those people who were serving on the NSA at the
time
>> how they would have felt about a large number of enthusiasitcally active
new
>> converts showing up for convention! I'm sure they would be happy to tell
us.
>
>Will this now be considered to be more incontrovertable evidence in this
>face of competing explanations for why they might do so, easily
>obtainable from game theory or psychology?
>
>
>> > It is a typical characteristic of propaganda that baseless
>> >allegations are put forward that seem contrary to common sense, which
their
>> >authors hope will become plausible by virtue of the fallacy of authority
or
>> >through constant repetition.
>>
>> NO KIDDING! Dr. Cole is giving us such a prime example of just that.
>
>Cole is vastly outnumbered in point of fact; very little in the way of
>this position is available when contrasted with information made
>available by Bahais, as I have discovered while attempting to find
>sociological surveys on Bahais
>
> > But Dr. Cole continues his constant and baseless repetition of the
>charge that
>> they must have stopped the mass teaching because they were afraid of
being
>> voted off the NSA! To support this he writes:
>>
>> >Someone who receives $150,000
>> >or more per annum in cash and perquisites will naturally be worried
about
>> >losing that income.
>>
>> As if *anyone* on the NSA in the early '70's got anywhere near that
amount of
>> money! In fact at present I think the only person who comes even close is
>> likely the Afro-American who serves as Secretary-General.
>> I frankly do not know whether or not the American NSA made the right
decision
>> in stopping the mass teaching. I know from my own experience with it that
I
>> myself had grave misgivings about the rightness of what were doing. It
might
>> have been better to have allowed to run its course, I don't know. What I
do
>> know is that the NSA had legitimate reasons for being concerned. And to
suggest
>> that they were motivated by racism or fear of not being re-elected
>> is nothing but sheer slander.
>>
>> It should be clear to anyone by now who has been following these
discussion
>> that what happened between certain academics and the Baha'i
administration had
>> little to do with scholarship *per se.* As the House of Justice wrote me
on
>> Feb. 8, 1998:
>>
>> "They sought to use the language, the occasions and the credibility of
>> scholarly activity to lend a counterfeit authority to a private
enterprise
>> which was essentially ideological in nature and self-motivated in
origin."
>
>What ideological is to mean here is unclear to me. Please explain and
>perhaps we can discuss together epistemological differences as well as
>how one could theoretically disprove tautological contentions while the
>introduction of evidence or reasoning which might result in cognitive
>dissonance or theoretical revision to the believer is ex ante
>inadmissable
>
>Thank you
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, January 16, 1999 9:39 AM
Subject: Re: TRB
Roger Reini wrote in message <36a18369.44740702@news.newsguy.com>...
>On 16 Jan 1999 08:11:02 GMT, rmckin6046@aol.com (RMckin6046) wrote:
>
>>Good morning all!
>>
>>I was able to access talk.religion.bahai [TRB] this morning from the list
of
>>newsgroups on AOL. You know it was months after its creation before I
could
>>access ARB from AOL.
>>
>>God bless all of you and the new newsgroup.
>>
>>Richard
>
>A bogus version of TRB has been in circulation for a few months, and
>it was known to be on AOL. I don't believe that the official
>newsgroup control messages have gone out yet, so this may still be the
>bogus group.
>
>As of yesterday evening, Newsguy did not have t.r.b.
>
>
>Roger (rreini@wwnet.net)
>https://fp-www.wwnet.net/~rreini/
Roger's right, Richard. The legitimate talk.religion.bahai
has not yet been created by David Lawrence; maybe
within the week. In the meantime, you've posted to the
bogus one!
My, how complicated life can be....
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, January 16, 1999 9:50 AM
To: FG
Subject: soc.religion.bahai - brief quotations
Robert J. Pease, December 5, 1998:
"I support your efforts to expose SRB as a fundamentalist group."
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/srb84.htm
Kent Johnson:
"It turns my stomach that they call themselves a Baha'i Group
while doing these things so obviously partisan and consciously
unjust."
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/srb61.htm
Ron House:
"I think the following is a clear case of malicious
rejection of an article by the worst of the moderators of
soc.religion.bahai."
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/srb53.htm
Timothy Mulligan:
"(Sigh) Fred, I'm beginning to think you're right about those
SRB moderators."
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/srb59.htm
RobertNik:
"these guys are pompous arseholes IMHO."
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/srb54.htm
Bruce Burrill:
"What are Baha'i afraid of?"
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/srb60.htm
Zuteflute:
"Frankly I could not see anything in the letter I wrote which
would prompt someone to ask whether or not I am a Baha'i."
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/srb50.htm
YU ZIR:
"But as an outsider, I can perhaps see the point Fred Glaysher
is making, and which point none of SRB's defenders seem to
address."
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/srb46.htm
Matthew Cromer:
"The current moderators regulate the contents--posting articles
which they agree with...."
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/srb47.htm
Kavosh Soltani, December 9, 1998:
"So many Bahais on these forums
have shown to be ready to forget logic and reason, ignore
clear evidence and Word of God, and come up with exactly the
same line of tired and inaccurate excuses and arguments to
justify their position, that it can not be a simple coincidence."
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/srb77.htm
Shakti3, December 4, 1998:
"Sorry to hear that you've been surpressed on srb. Your comments
were alway very "right on." Altho it does not surprise me one bit,
seeing the way these newsgroups operate."
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/Ex7.htm
Harold Shinsato:
"It seems like there is an oppression over the Baha'i Faith."
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/srb33.htm
Steve Tomljenovic, December 3, 1998:
"The moderators are a bit overzealous at times. Since all the
controversy started, it has gotten worse."
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/srb79.htm
Laeterna:
"To say I was flabberghasted at this type of "moderating" was
putting it mildly indeed."
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/censored2.htm
Guy Macon"
"Please explain which portion of the charter the following
post violates."
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/censored1.htm
Robin Peters:
"I think you're to be commended for your persistence in the
face of consistent censorship."
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/srb43.htm
jgoldberg:
"I refuse to post on soc.religion.bahai because of the arbitrary and
mean-spirited manner of censorship practiced by the moderators. "
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/srb57.htm
Ruletherod, November 17, 1998:
"Too much damage has already been done in the name and to
the name of Baha'u'llah by right-wing administrative bullies,
linear-thinking apologists, and doctrinaire-fundamentalists. You
can't just blame it all on the critics."
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/srb76.htm
Many other similar messages may be found on my web site under
soc.religion.bahai censorship.
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/srb.htm
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm
On alt.religion.bahai and AOL, Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: McKenny Michael[SMTP:bn872@freenet.carleton.ca]
Sent: Saturday, January 16, 1999 10:57 PM
To: FG@hotmail.com
Subject: Re: TRB
Greetings, Frederick, from Ottawa.
Congratulations on the successful vote.
You have put an enormous amount of effort into this and you deserve
a tremendous amount of appreciation.
You have my sincerest top wishes that this newsgroup will astound
everyone in every beneficial way. May it have a remarkable and quite
pleasing influence.
May this find you very well, and may the future amaze us by how well
things turn out.
All the Best,
Michael
>
> Roger's right, Richard. The legitimate talk.religion.bahai
> has not yet been created by David Lawrence; maybe
> within the week. In the meantime, you've posted to the
> bogus one!
>
> My, how complicated life can be....
>
> FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
> https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
> alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
>
>
>
>
>
--
"My name's McKenny, Mike McKenny, Warrant Officer, Solar Guard."
(Tom Corbett #1 STAND BY FOR MARS p2)
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, January 17, 1999 4:33 PM
Subject: fw 2nd Juan Cole on mass teaching & Maneck's AOL slander
-----Original Message-----
From: Juan Cole <jrcole@umich.edu>
To: FG <FG@hotmail.com>
Date: Saturday, January 16, 1999 7:26 AM
Subject: Re: Fw: fw Juan Cole on mass teaching & Maneck's AOL slander
>
>
>1) I have never said that the motive or even a motive of the NSA in
>closing down the mass teaching in the South in the early '70s was 'racism.'
> It can be alleged all anyone likes that I have said this, but it cannot
>be demonstrated, because I have not. I have simply reported that some
>African-Americans at the time feared that such considerations entered in,
>and I have specifically admitted that they may well have been wrong. It
>seems to me, given the NSA's record, that without any doubt whatsoever a
>kind of paternalism was involved.
>
>There is evidence that Charlotte Linfoot was consistently unsympathetic to
>Baha'i involvement in the civil rights movement from the lunch counter
>demonstrations of 1960 forward, and I am afraid the interviewing I've done
>with people who knew her leads me strongly to suspect that her quietism
>acted as a screen for discomfort with uppity Blacks. Whether this feeling
>entered into her vote on the South Carolina process, I am happy to admit I
>do not know. I am glad that it is now uncontested that the NSA did shut
>down the mass conversions, because only once that is established can there
>then be reasoned consultation on what the full range of motives for that
>was, and whether that was a good thing. I think you can imagine what
>Ruhiyyih Khanum thought about it.
>
>2) Bill Davis in one of his interrogations of the Dialogue editors in
>spring, 1988, specifically said that the NSA had been worried that 'A
>Modest Proposal' might come across to the delegates as a critique of the
>sitting NSA's record (enrollments had fallen off drastically and virtually
>no money was being put into teaching), and cost some of them election.
>Only the poor naifs who have never actually had anything serious to do with
>Wilmette are under the impression that no NSA member cares if he or she is
>reelected. Some of these elected officials are drawing substantial money
>out of the faith. The men all think they have a shot at getting elected to
>the UHJ, and moving up to salaries in the large six figures as well as
>enormous power in a community of 3 million. It is worries about being
>reelected that drives the poor things to be so repressive sometimes, which
>hurts the community generally, and the community if it were smart would
>find a way out of this bad situation.
>
>3) I have never called 'the Baha'i faith' a 'cult' globally. I rather
>like most Baha'is I have known, and I admire the values for which the
>Baha'i faith stands. I'd like to see it succeed better than it has. My
>definition of a cult is a religious organization that exercises undue
>control over adherents and that engages in deviant practices. The Baha'i
>faith is not deviant, though there is a certain amount of personal
>corruption among its officials. In some communities, and at some levels,
>the degree of control that officials attempt to gain over adherents is
>troubling to me. In particular, I believe that in an open society like the
>U.S., the practice of shunning is generally a cult marker (as you have it
>among Jehovah's Witnesses, e.g.). Thus, what I would say is that in some
>communities and among some officials there are cult-like behaviors among
>Baha'is, and that there is more such cult-like behavior in the Baha'i
>community than there is in the Episcopalian or Methodist or Unitarian
>Universalist communinities.
>
>4)
>
>>It should be clear to anyone by now who has been following these
discussion
>>that what happened between certain academics and the Baha'i administration
>>had little to do with scholarship *per se.*
>
>Our current discussion cannot in fact shed any light whatsoever on the
>issues that caused Haifa to launch false and outrageous heresy accusations
>against a number of Baha'i academics and intellectuals in April, 1996, for
>their email messages. (Such a tolerant, universal, loving, Baha'i-like
>action!) One of the cheap polemical tricks used by some people is to
>employ things I have said and stances I have taken since I was mysteriously
>and suddenly assaulted as ex post facto justifications for the assault.
>Some of Talisman@indiana.edu is up on the Web. Anyone who can read my
>messages there and conclude that I was a covenant breaker is just a sicko.
>Obviously, once the high administration revealed to me how weird they are,
>I went on to critique them more seriously on the basis of this new
>knowledge. But using these new critiques, by someone now an outsider, to
>justify the initial assault is like saying the victim of an attempted rape
>provoked the rape when she sprayed mace at her assailant.
>
>
>>As the House of Justice wrote me on
>>Feb. 8, 1998:
>>
>> "They sought to use the language, the occasions and the credibility of
>>scholarly activity to lend a counterfeit authority to a private enterprise
>>which was essentially ideological in nature and self-motivated in origin."
>
>This sentence means absolutely nothing. It is obscurantist gobbledegook
>written by someone very anti-intellectual, very malicious and not very
>bright. 'Unduly vague' doesn't even come close! If this were a charge
>against a criminal in a U.S. judicial proceeding it would be laughed out
>of court.
>
>I did not 'use' the language, 'occasions' (what does this mean--can't they
>learn *English*?), or 'credibility' (this also seems awkward) of academic
>scholarship. I *practiced* academic scholarship. I engaged my subject
>with the tools of analysis, contextualization, and the weighting of
>causality. I engaged in academic scholarship, in a sincere and frank
>search for the truth as I saw it (which I thought was what a Baha'i was
>*supposed* to do). I did this with regard to 19th century Iranian Baha'i
>history. I did it with regard to 20th century American. If I got
>something wrong, it would have been enough to present alternative evidence
>and analysis for my consideration. As an academic scholar, I am always
>open to the latter. Instead, I was presented with threats and demands I
>fall silent on pain of being shunned. How nice, gentle, loving, tolerant
>that was.
>
>What does it mean that this so-called 'counterfeit' authority was being
>lent to an enterprise that was 'self-motivated?' I was sending email
>messages to friends. How could that not be 'self-motivated?' Which of you
>reading this has sent email messages to friends about a subject of interest
>to you in a way that was not 'self-motivated?' I fear that the word
>'cult-like' leaps out from this phrase. Behavior cannot be
>'self-motivated' in the Baha'i faith? Everything has to come from Central
>Direction, a la the Bolsheviks?
>
>And how were my talisman@indiana.edu messages any more or less
>'ideological' than the messages of anyone else who posted there, including
>the UHJ itself, which certainly at any one time has a collective 'ideology'
>(even though it shouldn't, and this is not its prerogative)? I'll bet you
>our friends in Haifa couldn't even *define* ideology in a way that made any
>social science sense. The real problem was not 'ideology' but 'ideas.'
>And the fact is that a majority on the UHJ (or maybe even a minority--the
>institution doesn't act in a rationalized fashion) didn't *like* my ideas,
>and they didn't want me sharing them publicly.
>
>The problem is that my ideas, expressed as non-authoritative individual
>opinion, were none of their business. They are only authorized to
>legislate. They aren't historians, they aren't sociologists, and they
>aren't even theologians. Some of them are electrical engineers. If they
>had any sense whatsoever they would keep their opinions about things like
>professional history to themselves, because no one is interested in what
>some fundamentalist engineer thinks about history, regardless of what he's
>managed to get himself elected to. And because they couldn't debate my
>ideas, they took the creepy, lazy path and declared them heretical and
>tried to make them taboo. In doing this they only made themselves look
>ridiculous for all time. In a hundred years people will still be reading
>my book on Baha'u'llah. In a hundred years no one will have heard of any
>of the current House members.
>
>>They go on to say:
>>
>>"Your own familiarity with these same persons' behaviour will have
provided
>>you with ample illustration of the violence being done by their public and
>>private statements to Baha'u'llah's teachings,
>
>O.K. Somebody give me a concrete example of some 'behavior' of mine that
>did 'violence' to Baha'u'llah's teachings any time in the period August
>1972-April 1996. Anything at all. These Baha'i officials don't have the
>slightest idea what Baha'u'llah even stood for on most issues, and they
>reverse him whenever they find him inconvenient.
>
>>which they profess to honour,
>
>I did honor Baha'u'llah's teachings when I was a Baha'i. Someone should
>give me some evidence to the contrary. Some of the people these individuals
>in Haifa have promoted have been real sleazeballs, so who are they to stand
>in judgment of my profession of faith 1972-1996?
>
>>and to the cause of scholarship, which they profess to serve.
>
>I have spent my life in the cause of academic scholarship. I have never,
>ever, done violence to its methods, its integrity, or its findings. In
>fact, to agree to allow myself to be silenced or censored by the UHJ or NSA
>and to withhold from the public my research findings, as they insisted,
>would have been a very serious derogation of my professional duties and a
>betrayal of the public trust. These people don't have any respect for
>academic scholarship. They have never supported it in any way. The insist
>it be vetted (and therefore distorted and made dishonest). They have
>managed to throw out or alienate a majority of the Baha'i academics in
>Middle East studies who have dared actually pursue their profession and
>write something serious on Baha'i studies.
>
>>We cannot separate method from spirit and character."
>
>Again, the UHJ is not empowered to stand in judgment of the character of
>Baha'is. It is supposed to be leading Baha'is to build Mashriqu'l-Adhkars,
>according to `Abdul-Baha. It is supposed to be doing major
>philanthropical and charitable work, according to Shoghi Effendi. It is
>supposed to legislate laws. It can only sanction actual behavior, not
>sincere non-authoritative expressions of individual conscience. This is
>scriptural. In fact, the UHJ has become a center of tyranny, of
>authoritarianism, of censorship, of repression, of imposed superstition and
>dogma. It has almost completely betrayed everything the Baha'i holy
>figures stood for. And it could not do that if there weren't some *very*
>serious flaws in the character of its members. Everyone should please pray
>for them, and for me.
>
>
>cheers Juan Cole
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, January 17, 1999 4:39 PM
To: bn872@freenet.carleton.ca
Subject: Re: TRB
Thanks, Michael. You're one of the very few who have
said anything nice about it, as you might imagine....
-----Original Message-----
From: McKenny Michael <bn872@freenet.carleton.ca>
To: FG@hotmail.com <FG@hotmail.com>
Date: Saturday, January 16, 1999 9:57 PM
Subject: Re: TRB
>Greetings, Frederick, from Ottawa.
> Congratulations on the successful vote.
> You have put an enormous amount of effort into this and you deserve
>a tremendous amount of appreciation.
> You have my sincerest top wishes that this newsgroup will astound
>everyone in every beneficial way. May it have a remarkable and quite
>pleasing influence.
> May this find you very well, and may the future amaze us by how well
>things turn out.
> All the Best,
> Michael
>
>>
>> Roger's right, Richard. The legitimate talk.religion.bahai
>> has not yet been created by David Lawrence; maybe
>> within the week. In the meantime, you've posted to the
>> bogus one!
>>
>> My, how complicated life can be....
>>
>> FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
>> https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
>> alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>--
>"My name's McKenny, Mike McKenny, Warrant Officer, Solar Guard."
> (Tom Corbett #1 STAND BY FOR MARS p2)
>
>
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, January 17, 1999 4:43 PM
To: Juan Cole
Subject: Fw: Mass Teaching in the '70's
For your amusement.....
-----Original Message-----
From: Smaneck <smaneck@aol.com>
Newsgroups: alt.religion.bahai
Date: Sunday, January 17, 1999 3:37 PM
Subject: Mass Teaching in the '70's
>
>Dear friends,
>
>As I was thinking about the mass teaching that
>went on in the 70's I remembered a conversation
>I had with the late Borah Kavelin who was then
>serving on the Universal House of Justice.
>
>You see when I had been involved in mass
>teaching we often had deepenings in which it was
>stressed that this was the kind of teaching the
>House of Justice was calling for. We even
>believed that those Baha'is who did not support
>it were somehow less 'firm" in the Covenant than
>we were.(Oh, to be young again and imagine yone
>knows all about the Covenant!) Then came my
>experiences trying to consolidate which forced
>me to rethink what we were doing (although the
>methods I was taught bothered me even before
>that.) Yet I still had in my mind that these
>methods were what the House of Justice was
>endorsing and hence doubts arose within me about
>the House itself.
>
>Most of what I'm writing here I am taking
>directly out of my diary which I had written at
>the time. although I've added a few
>recollections which I hadn't written down.
>
>My pilgrimage was in 1978 when I was 22 and we
>met Mr. Kavelin in the Pilgrim's House. I raised
>the question of mass teaching there and
>expressed, in a voice that cracked, my own
>reservations that we were not respecting the
>integrity of the people we taught, that we
>seemed to be placing numerical goals over
>everything else. Someone said something about
>there not being enough consolidation but I
>described how those of us who dedicated
>ourselves to this task found ourselves with
>basically nothing to consolidate after hundreds
>of declarations.
>
>Mr. Kavelin carefully avoided saying whether the
>methods I was describing were right or wrong.
>But he said we must not become discouraged. We
>must have faith and confidence and trust in our
>Institutions. He said that the National
>Spiritual Assembly knew what was happening and
>was in contact with the World Centre. The
>Baha'is, he said, needed to teach with certitude
>and not out of desperation, then we would have
>results. When we are presented with a challenge
>we must strive to meet it, but not with
>desperation. If one thing doesn't work we should
>try something else with *faith and confidence.*
>
>After the meeting he seized my arm, held it very
>tightly and said to me very intently that I must
>decide for myself which way is right for me.
>"Don't be a puppet, Suzy. Don't be a follower,
>find your own way and become a leader, then you
>will see how to reach the hearts."
>
>warmest, Susan
>
>
>
>warmest,
>
>Susan
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, January 17, 1999 4:48 PM
Subject: Re: RESULT: talk.religion.bahai passes 218:63
Dave Ratcliffe wrote in message <36a385c5.92318762@news.ptd.net>...
>
>Post a copy of it there yourself if you wish.
Actually, thanks for the suggestion. I'll send the RESULT
in to srb right away, just to be sure they receive it.
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, January 17, 1999 4:56 PM
To: srb
Cc: billh@samoatelco.com
Subject: RESULT: talk.religion.bahai passes 218: 63
Dear Mr. Hyman:
Since I have not seen the RESULT appear on soc.religion.bahai,
I am taking the advice of a news.groupie and sending you myself
a copy of it. You may verify its authenticity on news.groups or
news.announce.newgroups.
I'm sure people on soc.religion.bahai, having read the RFD and
the CFV, would like to hear of the RESULT.
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
--------------
RESULT
unmoderated group talk.religion.bahai passes 218:63
There were 218 YES votes and 63 NO votes, for a total of 281 valid
votes. There were 6 abstentions and 8 invalid ballots.
For a group to pass, YES votes must be at least 2/3 of all valid
(YES and NO) votes. There must also be at least 100 more YES votes
than NO votes.
A five day discussion period follows this announcement. If no
serious allegations of voting irregularities are raised, the
moderator of news.announce.newgroups will create the group shortly
thereafter.
Newsgroups line:
talk.religion.bahai Discussion of the Baha'i Faith.
Voting closed at 23:59:59 UTC, 25 Dec 1998.
This vote was conducted by a neutral third party. Questions
about the proposed group should be directed to the proponent.
Proponent: FG <FG@hotmail.com>
Proponent: Ron House <house@usq.edu.au>
Proponent: Fran Baker <fran@crhc.uiuc.edu>
Proponent: Frank Baker <fbaker@ncsa.uiuc.edu>
Proponent: John Walker <johnwalker@ozemail.com.au>
Votetaker: Dave Cornejo <dave@dogwood.com>
RATIONALE: talk.religion.bahai
The newsgroup talk.religion.bahai is proposed to meet the need for an
open and unmoderated forum for discussion of the Baha'i Faith within
the structure of the Big 8 hierarchies.
The proponents intend that talk.religion.bahai will complement, rather
than supplant, the existing moderated group soc.religion.bahai, and
will provide those without access to alt.religion.bahai the
opportunity to participate. It is noted that the alt.* hierarchy is
less well propagated than the talk.* hierarchy; this has meant that
many people who have voted YES on earlier proposals have been unable
to join discussions on alt.religion.bahai.
CHARTER: talk.religion.bahai
All topics or ideas relevant to the Baha'i faith -- its history,
teachings, theology, etc. -- would be appropriate areas for
discussion.
Talk.religion.bahai fills the need for a fully open and universally
accessible Internet forum about the Baha'i Faith. Postings may take
any point of view with regard to the Baha'i Faith. While this allows
criticism, it also fully opens the door for enquirers to see with
their own eyes and not through the eyes of their neighbors, asking
questions and reading replies from anyone who is interested in their
question.
Readers are asked to observe standard netiquette in their use of this
newsgroup.
Readers are asked to observe Baha'i standards of conduct and not to
start or prolong flamewars in the group, but to focus instead on
articles and threads written in more moderate terms.
The posting of articles not relevant to the Baha'i Faith is
prohibited. Large ASCII graphics, large binaries, pornography, spam,
and any postings of a purely personal or commercial nature are
prohibited. To facilitate viewing in news readers that are not
HTML-capable, HTML-formatted postings are strongly discouraged.
Cross-posting to irrelevant groups is also discouraged, and readers
are encouraged to redirect follow-ups to reduce excessive
cross-posting. Readers may also post articles that have been rejected
>from soc.religion.bahai, so long as they conform to this charter.
END CHARTER.
DISTRIBUTION:
In addition to the groups named in the Newsgroups: header, the CFV
and the eventual RESULT posts will be mailed to these mailing lists:
Mailing list name: Talisman
Submission address: talisman@umich.edu
Request address: jsgreen@umich.edu
Mailing list name: Bahai Studies
Submission address: bahai-st@johnco.cc.ks.us
Request address: major@johnco.cc.ks.us
Mailing list name: h-Bahai
Submission address: h-Bahai@h-net.msu.edu
Request address: jrcole@umich.edu
Mailing list name: bahai-faith
Submission address: bahai-faith@egroups.com
Request address: bahai-faith-subscribe@egroups.com
Pointers directing readers to this CFV will be posted in these groups:
alt.religion
soc.religion.eastern
soc.religion.gnosis
soc.religion.hindu
soc.religion.paganism
soc.religion.quaker
soc.religion.unitarian-univ
talk.religion.buddhism
talk.religion.newage
talk.philosophy.humanism
talk.philosophy.misc
uk.religion.interfaith
uk.religion.misc
uk.religion.other-faiths
talk.religion.bahai Final Voter list
Voted YES
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
garner#looksmart.com.au Rena
Garner
johnn#mpx.com.au John
New
mclark#tpgi.com.au Martin
Clark
house#usq.edu.au Ron
House
jmara#cyllene.uwa.edu.au Joel Jani
Marangella
ghous#osr.nsw.gov.au Gitie
House
billbrwr#compusmart.ab.ca Bill
Brewer
sugimotm#cuug.ab.ca Mike
Sugimoto
crleech#freenet.carleton.ca Colin R.
Leech
shaheedi#nbnet.nb.ca Afzal
Shaheedi
trustone#bc.sympatico.ca Akbarally
Meherally
zarepour#mathstat.uottawa.ca Mahmoud
Zarepour.
narayan123#123india.com Kanva
Narayan
tierney#alloymail.com Sal
Tierney
hanv#angelfire.com Haq
Hanvey
AAli929596#aol.com Abdulnasser
Ali
BRaynor781#aol.com
CRust60001#aol.com
FG#aol.com FG
HANI72#aol.com Hani
Ayyad
Jimo3#aol.com Jim
Overmyer
JoySafari#aol.com Marcella
Hamilton
KevinEco#aol.com Kevin
Haines
Macho786#aol.com Maaz
Khan
Member1700#aol.com Anthony A.
Lee
PParvin#aol.com
RayHanania#aol.com John
Doe
RobertNik#aol.com Robert S
Nikjoo
SAMaso#aol.com J. Eddie
Parent.
Shaksway#aol.com jim Davis
(shaksway)
Smastr#aol.com Sam
Masters
amasri#dcn.att.com Ala'a
Elmasri
macleod#beloved.com John
MacLeod
alexdawson#bigfoot.com Alex
Dawson
kindervater#businessweekmail.com "Doc"
Kindervater
tom4#canoemail.com Thomas
Buckland
sandraa#ccnmail.com S.
A.
habuhant#CH2M.com Haytham
Abu-Hantash
markow#chickmail.com Sassy
Markow
Laudrigan#collegeclub.com Bud
Laudrigan
jgoldberg#condolawyers.com Jeffrey A.
Goldberg
kathleenm#cybertrails.com McKibben
Family
eridani#databasix.com
Belinda
booda#datasync.com Martin H.
Booda
guymacon#deltanet.com guymacon#deltanet.com (Guy
Macon)
vminai#spd.dsccc.com Viqar
Minai
carducci#easypost.com Ladislaus
Carducci
UNGARINO#ECardMail.Com Eleanor
Ungarino
john_brownston#educastmail.com John
Brownston
mercado959#email.com Jennifer
Mercado
edwardiii#england.com Edward
III
stomljen#enteract.com Steve
Tomljenovic
rothbrian#mail.entrepreneurmag.com Brian
Roth
alshawa#erols.com Amer
Alshawa
shaukat#erols.com Khalid
Shaukat
tutstone#eudoramail.com Marlene
Tutstone
lopezaz#excite.com Jaime
Lopez
umaraadil#excite.com
Umar Aadil Abdul Rahman McKloskey
Abdullah
gkerley#execpc.com Gillam
Kerley
david#farrar.com David
Farrar
lucie_vendome#fcmail.com Lucie
Vendome
wilsonj#flashemail.com Jack
Wilson
runchey467#fnmail.com Jeff
Runchey
dave#frackit.com Dave
Ratcliffe
howie#giantsfan.com Ron
Howard
kendrick64#GNWMail.com Steve
Kendrick
BHoyt#goplay.com Brian
Hoyt
bjv#herbison.com B.J.
Herbison
maher#home.com Maher
Barakat
c.nunez#hotbot.com Cindy
Nunez
burnettcj#hotmail.com Clara
Frade-Burnett
shakir_husain#hotmail.com Shakir
Husain
rdetweil#boi.hp.com Dick
Detweiler
rshane#us.ibm.com Randall
Shane
goodlett#ignmail.com Jim
Goodlett
takriti#ihorizons.com Mohamad
Takriti
hopegartner#iname.com Alice
Hopegartner
matthew_cromer#iname.com Matthew
Cromer
ramirazodi#iname.com Roohi
Amirazodi
muntada#inix.com
Rashid
jaed#jaedworks.com Jeanne A. E.
DeVoto
kwame#jahoopa.com Kwame
Unanda
samorgan#java-man.com
<FONT =
r_lee#jerusalemail.com Lee
Rusan
Aansari#dc.jones.com
Aamir=20
o_elkordy#juno.com Omar El
Kordy
Christensen#kansascity.com Len
Christensen
henry42#mail.kmsp.com Henry
Wadsworth
todomanana#latino.com Miguel
Hernandez
David.Vessell#lpcorp.com David L.
Vessell
sponseller#lycosmail.com David
Sponseller
EdythBadalian#MailAndNews.com Edyth
Badalian
ogreen#mailcity.com
Ogreen
jensen29#mailtag.com Edward
Jensen
hoffman#mailwire.com Larry
Hoffman
cipher#mindspring.com
Cipher
unrein#cig.mot.com W.
Sanders-Unrein
billmc#email.msn.com Bill
McJohn
chesshazlett#email.msn.com " and be immediately
followed
olav#viking.mv.com Olav
Nieuwejaar
hyle#my-dejanews.com Sohayl
Shambashi
marifok#my-dejanews.com Arif
Muljadi
rlittle33#my-dejanews.com Robert
Little
sutherland55#netradiomail.com Lisa
Sutherland
mirele#newsguy.com Deana M.
Holmes
dmarasco#npsnet.com David
Marasco
cgruber#us.oracle.com Christian Edward
Gruber
jtidwell#animato.pn.com Jenifer P.
Tidwell
rlcarr#animato.pn.com Rich
Carreiro
ellenberg#popmail.com Jane
Ellenberg
E.Adams#pousa.com Eileen
Adams
MRaflin#PREMIER-OIL.com Muhammad
Raflin
robertwarren#prontomail.com Robert
Warren
timken#prontomail.com Ruth
Timken
Safir_Ulhaque#raytheon.com Safir
Ulhaque
jasonmeller#recyclermail.com Jason
Meller
griffin#rednecks.com Bud
Griffin
chvatel#rotfl.com David
Chvatel
maruyama#sacbeemail.com Victor
Maruyama
harold#shinsato.com Harold
Shinsato
imran#spsnet.com Imran A.
Mufti
pan#syix.com
Pan
s.humes#talk21.com Shirley
Humes
josephb#tezcat.com Joe
Bernstein
charlotte#thedorm.com Charlotte
<BR>
lininger#theheadoffice.com Lininger
<BR>
AlvartRiecker#unbounded.com Alvart
Riecker
smahmud#uop.com Shahid
Mahmud
lingel#email.women.com Sam
Lingel
haldi#worldmailer.com Kenneth
Haldi
arman_taj#yahoo.com Arman
Tajarobi
galaxy001#yahoo.com
j.s.
kruposki#yahoo.com Andrew
Krupowicz
nimans#yahoo.com Niman
Shukairy
padidehjan#yahoo.com
PadidehjAn
uhler668#yahoo.com Nancy
Uhler
kakhtar#yours.com Khalid
Akhtar
vote#kholdan.snafu.de tobias
erle
indratmoko.poerwanto#heim6.tu-clausthal.de Indratmoko
Poerwanto
cstone#uclink4.berkeley.edu Chris
Stone
nmcnelly#bu.edu N.A.F.
McNelly
hfung#CSUPomona.Edu Henry
Fung
jdeutsch#osf1.gmu.edu Jeffrey
Deutsch
jdresner#fas.harvard.edu Jonathan
Dresner
jwalbrid#indiana.edu John
Walbridge
moslem#MIT.EDU Tarik
Alatovic
osborndo#pilot.msu.edu Donald Z
Osborn
akhtars#ee.eng.ohio-state.edu Siraj
Akhtar
daas#bobcat.ent.ohiou.edu Mutaz
Daas
wajahat#bobcat.ent.ohiou.edu Wajahat A
Khan
slipstk#olemiss.edu Gordon
Smith
kopetsbj#cs.purdue.edu Brett J.
Kopetsky
DELETE_Massoud.Ajami#sdsu.edu Massoud
Ajami
fran#crhc.uiuc.edu Frances R.
Baker
fbaker#ncsa.uiuc.edu Frank
Baker
ashaikh#eecs.umich.edu Anees
Shaikh
nedsaleh#engin.umich.edu Nedal
Saleh
jrcole#umich.edu Juan
Cole
nizam#umich.edu Nizam
Arain
harinath#cs.umn.edu Raja R
Harinath
hougen#cs.umn.edu Dean
Hougen
whitl005#tc.umn.edu Jonathan R
Whitling
dbowie#sas.upenn.edu David
Bowie
aabdalla#pollux.usc.edu Ahmed
Abd-Allah
endro#sys3.cs.usu.edu Endro
Kusumo
malo#pop3.utoledo.edu Mohammed
Alo
ASyamil#uoft02.utoledo.edu John
Doe
pjohnson#vsla.edu K. Paul
Johnson
aahmed#biology.biosci.wayne.edu Aamina
Ahmed
nali#med.wayne.edu Nasima
Ali
rufinus#mbe.ece.wisc.edu J
Rufinus
Paul.S.Wolf#alum.wpi.edu Paul S.
Wolf
vsaarine#cs.Helsinki.FI Vesa
Saarinen
bmcewan#healthnet.mrc.gm Bob
McEwan.
nmas#otenet.gr Nikos
Mastrakoulis
khairol#tm.net.my Khairol Azmi
Yussof
rinerin#tm.net.my shahrin shah bin abdul
rahman
sl1pbx#ameritech.net Gene
Truto
mbkafes#bestweb.net Milissa
Boyer=20
davetayl#concentric.net David
Taylor
islam662#CSSN.NET Sabeel
Ahmed</FONT>
booko#earthlink.net Sharon
Bouchard
oreocat#ETINTERNET.NET Gary L.
King
ljmoore#freespace.net
LarryMoore
sas#frontiernet.net
Stuart S
baird#gate.net Baird
Stafford
sinanju#gateway.net John
Noland
lightspring#jps.net Thomas
Spellman
rreini#mediaone.net Roger
Reini
peterry#megalink.net
Peter=20
bmathieu#micron.net Brent
Mathieu
EPierce#ns.net Eric D.
Pierce
jonboy#onlink.net Trevor
Tymchuk
r.marsou#pmail.net Robert
Marsou
RPittman#postmark.net Richard
Pittman
trhan#serv.net Teri
Rhan
alhadid#SoftHome.net
Muhammad=20
m-t-head#surfari.net Lloyd
Madansky
ayloush#usa.net Hussam
Ayloush
ceo4life#usa.net Harry
Clinkhammer
Toadis#usa.net Andres Gutierrez de
Cos
tommycarter#usa.net Tommy
Carter
emilyjackson#webtv.net Emily
Jackson
kaitlin_forrest#zensearch.net Kaitlin
Forrest
irina#rempt.xs4all.nl Irina
Rempt
forumbahai#es.co.nz Steve
Marshall
iio#iio.org Islamic Information
Office
irshad#irshad.org Muhammad
Irshad
peewee#scc.mi.org Jason
Wright
barthelmes#studentcenter.org Sophia
Barthelmes
andrew#erlenstar.demon.co.uk Andrew
Gierth
neil#nkelley.demon.co.uk neil
kelley
Chambers#fetchmail.co.uk Scott
Chambers
SamtheMan#postmaster.co.uk
SamTHEMan
Voted NO
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
mansouri#one.net.au Shahab
Mansouri
dany.steyaert#ping.be Dany
Steyaert
carol_bowie#mindlink.bc.ca David
Bowie
towfiq#401kforum.com Mark
Towfiq
AErfani#aol.com
Hlpflhanna#aol.com Debbie
Jenkins
Mac0000013#aol.com
Starlet001#aol.com Katherine
Mayerovitch
kimdv#best.com Kim
DeVaughn
stainles#bga.com Dwight
Brown
david.ritscher#bigfoot.com David
Ritscher
r.woodlock#bigfoot.com Rachel
Butson
lcs#zk3.dec.com Larry
Smith
camm#enhanced.com Camm
Maguire
caryenochr#enochsvision.com Enoch's Vision, Inc. (Cary Enoch
R.)
wcol#erols.com William
Collins
tom-hodges#geocities.com Tom
Hodges
aromatica45#hotmail.com Victoria
Williams
bearone1#hotmail.com Gary
Rosenbaum
fazlollahi#hotmail.com Ahmad
Fazlollahi
rachel_t#hotmail.com Theresa
McClendon
screamingb#hotmail.com Screaming
Banshee
swatchking#hotmail.com Fred
Tague
jjam#spica.hpl.hp.com Jim
Jam
nightbrd#humboldt1.com Douglas
Myers
shohre#itis.com Shohreh
Mansouri
bruce.limber#juno.com Bruce D.
Limber
lpolk01#juno.com Linda L
Polk
palmtop#mailtag.com Bonnie
Blanford
djull#mindspring.com David
Jull
slr1bpz#mindspring.com George
McCoy
bfwkendo#netvigator.com Brian
Walker
chriseb#nortelnetworks.com Chris
Ebenezer
dc#panix.com David W.
Crawford
persia#persia.com Robert
Moldenhauer
Sandy-Allan#dial.pipex.com Sandy
Allan
billh#samoatelco.com Bill
Hyman
doug.obrien#the-spa.com Doug
O'Brien
manialip#wowmail.com Kate
Sparks
francis_uy#yahoo.com F
Uy
Ekkehard.Uthke#gmx.de Ekkehard
Uthke
naddy#mips.rhein-neckar.de Christian
Weisgerber
cnelson#calpoly.edu Craig
Nelson
aull#ll.mit.edu Brian
Aull
rick#bcm.tmc.edu Richard H.
Miller
kohli#mail.ameritel.net Pat
Kohli
helenko#bellsouth.net Helen
Oney
cybrmage#dave-world.net Bud
Polk
rogerb#foxinternet.net Roger
Borseth
ellis#ftel.net Rick
Ellis
vpdura#hiwaay.net Vic
Dura
Scarecro#ime.net Tim
Griffin
jcornell#lightspeed.net John B.
Cornell
verbrugh#pionet.net Albert
Verbrugh
okoboji#prodigy.net
Loriann=20
mehyar22#siol.net Mehyar
Badii-Azandahi
scooter#taranaki.ac.nz
NUFAITH#wcnet.org Dennis
Rule
tr8770#bristol.ac.uk Tom
Richards
srm103#york.ac.uk Simon
Mawhinney
merlin#A470.demon.co.uk Darren Wyn
Rees
Graham#fragrant.demon.co.uk Graham
Sorenson
leili#Justice.Medford.MA.US Leili
Towfigh
Abstained
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
sw.unit02.msn#cwix.com Sue Klein
Gennario
chris#kzim.com Christopher Robin
Zimmerman
tikal#mailcity.com Samandar
Roshan-Zamir
neilc#wallaby.stanford.edu Neil
Crellin
schuette#s.imap.itd.umich.edu Wade
Schuette
rick#helix.nih.gov Rick
Troxel
Invalid ballots
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
afshin.afrashteh#utoronto.ca Afshin
Afrashteh
! Disqualified
webmaster#muntada.com Abdul-Rashid
Abdullah
! Ineligible address
ALTAFH#aol.com
! No vote statement in message
MeCraigB#aol.com Craig
Boyd
! No vote statement in message
LISTSERV#H-NET.MSU.EDU L-Soft list server at H-Net - Humanities On-Line
(1.8c)
! No vote statement in message
lbhollin#ust.hk Richard
Hollinger
! No vote statement in message
smeanver#tm.net.my
smeanver
! No vote statement in message
mezmer#globalnet.co.uk
Bob/Zannie
! No vote statement in message
To restore the email addresses above, pipe the ack list through the
following command:
sed -e 's/#/@/g'
--
Voting question & problems: Dave Cornejo <dave@dogwood.com>
Voting address: vote@dogwood.com
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, January 17, 1999 4:58 PM
Subject: To SRB & Bill Hyman (Re: RESULT: talk.religion.bahai passes 218:63)
-----Original Message-----
From: FG <FG@hotmail.com>
To: srb <srb-mods@bcca.org>
Cc: billh@samoatelco.com <billh@samoatelco.com>
Date: Sunday, January 17, 1999 3:56 PM
Subject: RESULT: talk.religion.bahai passes 218: 63
>Dear Mr. Hyman:
>
>Since I have not seen the RESULT appear on soc.religion.bahai,
>I am taking the advice of a news.groupie and sending you myself
>a copy of it. You may verify its authenticity on news.groups or
>news.announce.newgroups.
>
>I'm sure people on soc.religion.bahai, having read the RFD and
>the CFV, would like to hear of the RESULT.
>
>FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
>https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
>alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
>
>
>
>--------------
> RESULT
> unmoderated group talk.religion.bahai passes 218:63
>
>There were 218 YES votes and 63 NO votes, for a total of 281 valid
>votes. There were 6 abstentions and 8 invalid ballots.
>
>For a group to pass, YES votes must be at least 2/3 of all valid
>(YES and NO) votes. There must also be at least 100 more YES votes
>than NO votes.
>
>A five day discussion period follows this announcement. If no
>serious allegations of voting irregularities are raised, the
>moderator of news.announce.newgroups will create the group shortly
>thereafter.
>
>Newsgroups line:
>talk.religion.bahai Discussion of the Baha'i Faith.
>
>Voting closed at 23:59:59 UTC, 25 Dec 1998.
>
>This vote was conducted by a neutral third party. Questions
>about the proposed group should be directed to the proponent.
>
>Proponent: FG <FG@hotmail.com>
>Proponent: Ron House <house@usq.edu.au>
>Proponent: Fran Baker <fran@crhc.uiuc.edu>
>Proponent: Frank Baker <fbaker@ncsa.uiuc.edu>
>Proponent: John Walker <johnwalker@ozemail.com.au>
>Votetaker: Dave Cornejo <dave@dogwood.com>
>
>RATIONALE: talk.religion.bahai
>
>The newsgroup talk.religion.bahai is proposed to meet the need for an
>open and unmoderated forum for discussion of the Baha'i Faith within
>the structure of the Big 8 hierarchies.
>
>The proponents intend that talk.religion.bahai will complement, rather
>than supplant, the existing moderated group soc.religion.bahai, and
>will provide those without access to alt.religion.bahai the
>opportunity to participate. It is noted that the alt.* hierarchy is
>less well propagated than the talk.* hierarchy; this has meant that
>many people who have voted YES on earlier proposals have been unable
>to join discussions on alt.religion.bahai.
>
>CHARTER: talk.religion.bahai
>
>All topics or ideas relevant to the Baha'i faith -- its history,
>teachings, theology, etc. -- would be appropriate areas for
>discussion.
>
>Talk.religion.bahai fills the need for a fully open and universally
>accessible Internet forum about the Baha'i Faith. Postings may take
>any point of view with regard to the Baha'i Faith. While this allows
>criticism, it also fully opens the door for enquirers to see with
>their own eyes and not through the eyes of their neighbors, asking
>questions and reading replies from anyone who is interested in their
>question.
>
>Readers are asked to observe standard netiquette in their use of this
>newsgroup.
>
>Readers are asked to observe Baha'i standards of conduct and not to
>start or prolong flamewars in the group, but to focus instead on
>articles and threads written in more moderate terms.
>
>The posting of articles not relevant to the Baha'i Faith is
>prohibited. Large ASCII graphics, large binaries, pornography, spam,
>and any postings of a purely personal or commercial nature are
>prohibited. To facilitate viewing in news readers that are not
>HTML-capable, HTML-formatted postings are strongly discouraged.
>
>Cross-posting to irrelevant groups is also discouraged, and readers
>are encouraged to redirect follow-ups to reduce excessive
>cross-posting. Readers may also post articles that have been rejected
>>from soc.religion.bahai, so long as they conform to this charter.
>
>END CHARTER.
>
>
>DISTRIBUTION:
>
>In addition to the groups named in the Newsgroups: header, the CFV
>and the eventual RESULT posts will be mailed to these mailing lists:
>
>Mailing list name: Talisman
>Submission address: talisman@umich.edu
>Request address: jsgreen@umich.edu
>
>Mailing list name: Bahai Studies
>Submission address: bahai-st@johnco.cc.ks.us
>Request address: major@johnco.cc.ks.us
>
>Mailing list name: h-Bahai
>Submission address: h-Bahai@h-net.msu.edu
>Request address: jrcole@umich.edu
>
>Mailing list name: bahai-faith
>Submission address: bahai-faith@egroups.com
>Request address: bahai-faith-subscribe@egroups.com
>
>Pointers directing readers to this CFV will be posted in these groups:
>
>alt.religion
>soc.religion.eastern
>soc.religion.gnosis
>soc.religion.hindu
>soc.religion.paganism
>soc.religion.quaker
>soc.religion.unitarian-univ
>talk.religion.buddhism
>talk.religion.newage
>talk.philosophy.humanism
>talk.philosophy.misc
>uk.religion.interfaith
>uk.religion.misc
>uk.religion.other-faiths
>
>
>
>talk.religion.bahai Final Voter list
>
>Voted YES
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
>---
>garner#looksmart.com.au Rena
>Garner
>johnn#mpx.com.au John
>New
>mclark#tpgi.com.au Martin
>Clark
>house#usq.edu.au Ron
>House
>jmara#cyllene.uwa.edu.au Joel Jani
>Marangella
>ghous#osr.nsw.gov.au Gitie
>House
>billbrwr#compusmart.ab.ca Bill
>Brewer
>sugimotm#cuug.ab.ca Mike
>Sugimoto
>crleech#freenet.carleton.ca Colin R.
>Leech
>shaheedi#nbnet.nb.ca Afzal
>Shaheedi
>trustone#bc.sympatico.ca Akbarally
>Meherally
>zarepour#mathstat.uottawa.ca Mahmoud
>Zarepour.
>narayan123#123india.com Kanva
>Narayan
>tierney#alloymail.com Sal
>Tierney
>hanv#angelfire.com Haq
>Hanvey
>AAli929596#aol.com Abdulnasser
>Ali
>BRaynor781#aol.com
>CRust60001#aol.com
>FG#aol.com Frederick
>Glaysher
>HANI72#aol.com Hani
>Ayyad
>Jimo3#aol.com Jim
>Overmyer
>JoySafari#aol.com Marcella
>Hamilton
>KevinEco#aol.com Kevin
>Haines
>Macho786#aol.com Maaz
>Khan
>Member1700#aol.com Anthony A.
>Lee
>PParvin#aol.com
>RayHanania#aol.com John
>Doe
>RobertNik#aol.com Robert S
>Nikjoo
>SAMaso#aol.com J. Eddie
>Parent.
>Shaksway#aol.com jim Davis
>(shaksway)
>Smastr#aol.com Sam
>Masters
>amasri#dcn.att.com Ala'a
>Elmasri
>macleod#beloved.com John
>MacLeod
>alexdawson#bigfoot.com Alex
>Dawson
>kindervater#businessweekmail.com "Doc"
>Kindervater
>tom4#canoemail.com Thomas
>Buckland
>sandraa#ccnmail.com
S.
>A.
>habuhant#CH2M.com Haytham
>Abu-Hantash
>markow#chickmail.com Sassy
>Markow
>Laudrigan#collegeclub.com Bud
>Laudrigan
>jgoldberg#condolawyers.com Jeffrey A.
>Goldberg
>kathleenm#cybertrails.com McKibben
>Family
>eridani#databasix.com
>Belinda
>booda#datasync.com Martin H.
>Booda
>guymacon#deltanet.com guymacon#deltanet.com (Guy
>Macon)
>vminai#spd.dsccc.com Viqar
>Minai
>carducci#easypost.com Ladislaus
>Carducci
>UNGARINO#ECardMail.Com Eleanor
>Ungarino
>john_brownston#educastmail.com John
>Brownston
>mercado959#email.com Jennifer
>Mercado
>edwardiii#england.com Edward
>III
>stomljen#enteract.com Steve
>Tomljenovic
>rothbrian#mail.entrepreneurmag.com Brian
>Roth
>alshawa#erols.com Amer
>Alshawa
>shaukat#erols.com Khalid
>Shaukat
>tutstone#eudoramail.com Marlene
>Tutstone
>lopezaz#excite.com Jaime
>Lopez
>umaraadil#excite.com
> Umar Aadil Abdul Rahman McKloskey
>Abdullah
>gkerley#execpc.com Gillam
>Kerley
>david#farrar.com David
>Farrar
>lucie_vendome#fcmail.com Lucie
>Vendome
>wilsonj#flashemail.com Jack
>Wilson
>runchey467#fnmail.com Jeff
>Runchey
>dave#frackit.com Dave
>Ratcliffe
>howie#giantsfan.com Ron
>Howard
>kendrick64#GNWMail.com Steve
>Kendrick
>BHoyt#goplay.com Brian
>Hoyt
>bjv#herbison.com B.J.
>Herbison
>maher#home.com Maher
>Barakat
>c.nunez#hotbot.com Cindy
>Nunez
>burnettcj#hotmail.com Clara
>Frade-Burnett
>shakir_husain#hotmail.com Shakir
>Husain
>rdetweil#boi.hp.com Dick
>Detweiler
>rshane#us.ibm.com Randall
>Shane
>goodlett#ignmail.com Jim
>Goodlett
>takriti#ihorizons.com Mohamad
>Takriti
>hopegartner#iname.com Alice
>Hopegartner
>matthew_cromer#iname.com Matthew
>Cromer
>ramirazodi#iname.com Roohi
>Amirazodi
>muntada#inix.com
>Rashid
>jaed#jaedworks.com Jeanne A. E.
>DeVoto
>kwame#jahoopa.com Kwame
>Unanda
>samorgan#java-man.com
><FONT =
>r_lee#jerusalemail.com Lee
>Rusan
>Aansari#dc.jones.com
>Aamir=20
>o_elkordy#juno.com Omar El
>Kordy
>Christensen#kansascity.com Len
>Christensen
>henry42#mail.kmsp.com Henry
>Wadsworth
>todomanana#latino.com Miguel
>Hernandez
>David.Vessell#lpcorp.com David L.
>Vessell
>sponseller#lycosmail.com David
>Sponseller
>EdythBadalian#MailAndNews.com Edyth
>Badalian
>ogreen#mailcity.com
>Ogreen
>jensen29#mailtag.com Edward
>Jensen
>hoffman#mailwire.com Larry
>Hoffman
>cipher#mindspring.com
>Cipher
>unrein#cig.mot.com W.
>Sanders-Unrein
>billmc#email.msn.com Bill
>McJohn
>chesshazlett#email.msn.com " and be immediately
>followed
>olav#viking.mv.com Olav
>Nieuwejaar
>hyle#my-dejanews.com Sohayl
>Shambashi
>marifok#my-dejanews.com Arif
>Muljadi
>rlittle33#my-dejanews.com Robert
>Little
>sutherland55#netradiomail.com Lisa
>Sutherland
>mirele#newsguy.com Deana M.
>Holmes
>dmarasco#npsnet.com David
>Marasco
>cgruber#us.oracle.com Christian Edward
>Gruber
>jtidwell#animato.pn.com Jenifer P.
>Tidwell
>rlcarr#animato.pn.com Rich
>Carreiro
>ellenberg#popmail.com Jane
>Ellenberg
>E.Adams#pousa.com Eileen
>Adams
>MRaflin#PREMIER-OIL.com Muhammad
>Raflin
>robertwarren#prontomail.com Robert
>Warren
>timken#prontomail.com Ruth
>Timken
>Safir_Ulhaque#raytheon.com Safir
>Ulhaque
>jasonmeller#recyclermail.com Jason
>Meller
>griffin#rednecks.com Bud
>Griffin
>chvatel#rotfl.com David
>Chvatel
>maruyama#sacbeemail.com Victor
>Maruyama
>harold#shinsato.com Harold
>Shinsato
>imran#spsnet.com Imran A.
>Mufti
>pan#syix.com
>Pan
>s.humes#talk21.com Shirley
>Humes
>josephb#tezcat.com Joe
>Bernstein
>charlotte#thedorm.com Charlotte
><BR>
>lininger#theheadoffice.com Lininger
><BR>
>AlvartRiecker#unbounded.com Alvart
>Riecker
>smahmud#uop.com Shahid
>Mahmud
>lingel#email.women.com Sam
>Lingel
>haldi#worldmailer.com Kenneth
>Haldi
>arman_taj#yahoo.com Arman
>Tajarobi
>galaxy001#yahoo.com
>j.s.
>kruposki#yahoo.com Andrew
>Krupowicz
>nimans#yahoo.com Niman
>Shukairy
>padidehjan#yahoo.com
>PadidehjAn
>uhler668#yahoo.com Nancy
>Uhler
>kakhtar#yours.com Khalid
>Akhtar
>vote#kholdan.snafu.de tobias
>erle
>indratmoko.poerwanto#heim6.tu-clausthal.de Indratmoko
>Poerwanto
>cstone#uclink4.berkeley.edu Chris
>Stone
>nmcnelly#bu.edu N.A.F.
>McNelly
>hfung#CSUPomona.Edu Henry
>Fung
>jdeutsch#osf1.gmu.edu Jeffrey
>Deutsch
>jdresner#fas.harvard.edu Jonathan
>Dresner
>jwalbrid#indiana.edu John
>Walbridge
>moslem#MIT.EDU Tarik
>Alatovic
>osborndo#pilot.msu.edu Donald Z
>Osborn
>akhtars#ee.eng.ohio-state.edu Siraj
>Akhtar
>daas#bobcat.ent.ohiou.edu Mutaz
>Daas
>wajahat#bobcat.ent.ohiou.edu Wajahat A
>Khan
>slipstk#olemiss.edu Gordon
>Smith
>kopetsbj#cs.purdue.edu Brett J.
>Kopetsky
>DELETE_Massoud.Ajami#sdsu.edu Massoud
>Ajami
>fran#crhc.uiuc.edu Frances R.
>Baker
>fbaker#ncsa.uiuc.edu Frank
>Baker
>ashaikh#eecs.umich.edu Anees
>Shaikh
>nedsaleh#engin.umich.edu Nedal
>Saleh
>jrcole#umich.edu Juan
>Cole
>nizam#umich.edu Nizam
>Arain
>harinath#cs.umn.edu Raja R
>Harinath
>hougen#cs.umn.edu Dean
>Hougen
>whitl005#tc.umn.edu Jonathan R
>Whitling
>dbowie#sas.upenn.edu David
>Bowie
>aabdalla#pollux.usc.edu Ahmed
>Abd-Allah
>endro#sys3.cs.usu.edu Endro
>Kusumo
>malo#pop3.utoledo.edu Mohammed
>Alo
>ASyamil#uoft02.utoledo.edu John
>Doe
>pjohnson#vsla.edu K. Paul
>Johnson
>aahmed#biology.biosci.wayne.edu Aamina
>Ahmed
>nali#med.wayne.edu Nasima
>Ali
>rufinus#mbe.ece.wisc.edu J
>Rufinus
>Paul.S.Wolf#alum.wpi.edu Paul S.
>Wolf
>vsaarine#cs.Helsinki.FI Vesa
>Saarinen
>bmcewan#healthnet.mrc.gm Bob
>McEwan.
>nmas#otenet.gr Nikos
>Mastrakoulis
>khairol#tm.net.my Khairol Azmi
>Yussof
>rinerin#tm.net.my shahrin shah bin abdul
>rahman
>sl1pbx#ameritech.net Gene
>Truto
>mbkafes#bestweb.net Milissa
>Boyer=20
>davetayl#concentric.net David
>Taylor
>islam662#CSSN.NET Sabeel
>Ahmed</FONT>
>booko#earthlink.net Sharon
>Bouchard
>oreocat#ETINTERNET.NET Gary L.
>King
>ljmoore#freespace.net
>LarryMoore
>sas#frontiernet.net
>Stuart S
>baird#gate.net Baird
>Stafford
>sinanju#gateway.net John
>Noland
>lightspring#jps.net Thomas
>Spellman
>rreini#mediaone.net Roger
>Reini
>peterry#megalink.net
>Peter=20
>bmathieu#micron.net Brent
>Mathieu
>EPierce#ns.net Eric D.
>Pierce
>jonboy#onlink.net Trevor
>Tymchuk
>r.marsou#pmail.net Robert
>Marsou
>RPittman#postmark.net Richard
>Pittman
>trhan#serv.net Teri
>Rhan
>alhadid#SoftHome.net
>Muhammad=20
>m-t-head#surfari.net Lloyd
>Madansky
>ayloush#usa.net Hussam
>Ayloush
>ceo4life#usa.net Harry
>Clinkhammer
>Toadis#usa.net Andres Gutierrez de
>Cos
>tommycarter#usa.net Tommy
>Carter
>emilyjackson#webtv.net Emily
>Jackson
>kaitlin_forrest#zensearch.net Kaitlin
>Forrest
>irina#rempt.xs4all.nl Irina
>Rempt
>forumbahai#es.co.nz Steve
>Marshall
>iio#iio.org Islamic Information
>Office
>irshad#irshad.org Muhammad
>Irshad
>peewee#scc.mi.org Jason
>Wright
>barthelmes#studentcenter.org Sophia
>Barthelmes
>andrew#erlenstar.demon.co.uk Andrew
>Gierth
>neil#nkelley.demon.co.uk neil
>kelley
>Chambers#fetchmail.co.uk Scott
>Chambers
>SamtheMan#postmaster.co.uk
>SamTHEMan
>
>Voted NO
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
>---
>mansouri#one.net.au Shahab
>Mansouri
>dany.steyaert#ping.be Dany
>Steyaert
>carol_bowie#mindlink.bc.ca David
>Bowie
>towfiq#401kforum.com Mark
>Towfiq
>AErfani#aol.com
>Hlpflhanna#aol.com Debbie
>Jenkins
>Mac0000013#aol.com
>Starlet001#aol.com Katherine
>Mayerovitch
>kimdv#best.com Kim
>DeVaughn
>stainles#bga.com Dwight
>Brown
>david.ritscher#bigfoot.com David
>Ritscher
>r.woodlock#bigfoot.com Rachel
>Butson
>lcs#zk3.dec.com Larry
>Smith
>camm#enhanced.com Camm
>Maguire
>caryenochr#enochsvision.com Enoch's Vision, Inc. (Cary Enoch
>R.)
>wcol#erols.com William
>Collins
>tom-hodges#geocities.com Tom
>Hodges
>aromatica45#hotmail.com Victoria
>Williams
>bearone1#hotmail.com Gary
>Rosenbaum
>fazlollahi#hotmail.com Ahmad
>Fazlollahi
>rachel_t#hotmail.com Theresa
>McClendon
>screamingb#hotmail.com Screaming
>Banshee
>swatchking#hotmail.com Fred
>Tague
>jjam#spica.hpl.hp.com Jim
>Jam
>nightbrd#humboldt1.com Douglas
>Myers
>shohre#itis.com Shohreh
>Mansouri
>bruce.limber#juno.com Bruce D.
>Limber
>lpolk01#juno.com Linda L
>Polk
>palmtop#mailtag.com Bonnie
>Blanford
>djull#mindspring.com David
>Jull
>slr1bpz#mindspring.com George
>McCoy
>bfwkendo#netvigator.com Brian
>Walker
>chriseb#nortelnetworks.com Chris
>Ebenezer
>dc#panix.com David W.
>Crawford
>persia#persia.com Robert
>Moldenhauer
>Sandy-Allan#dial.pipex.com Sandy
>Allan
>billh#samoatelco.com Bill
>Hyman
>doug.obrien#the-spa.com Doug
>O'Brien
>manialip#wowmail.com Kate
>Sparks
>francis_uy#yahoo.com
F
>Uy
>Ekkehard.Uthke#gmx.de Ekkehard
>Uthke
>naddy#mips.rhein-neckar.de Christian
>Weisgerber
>cnelson#calpoly.edu Craig
>Nelson
>aull#ll.mit.edu Brian
>Aull
>rick#bcm.tmc.edu Richard H.
>Miller
>kohli#mail.ameritel.net Pat
>Kohli
>helenko#bellsouth.net Helen
>Oney
>cybrmage#dave-world.net Bud
>Polk
>rogerb#foxinternet.net Roger
>Borseth
>ellis#ftel.net Rick
>Ellis
>vpdura#hiwaay.net Vic
>Dura
>Scarecro#ime.net Tim
>Griffin
>jcornell#lightspeed.net John B.
>Cornell
>verbrugh#pionet.net Albert
>Verbrugh
>okoboji#prodigy.net
>Loriann=20
>mehyar22#siol.net Mehyar
>Badii-Azandahi
>scooter#taranaki.ac.nz
>NUFAITH#wcnet.org Dennis
>Rule
>tr8770#bristol.ac.uk Tom
>Richards
>srm103#york.ac.uk Simon
>Mawhinney
>merlin#A470.demon.co.uk Darren Wyn
>Rees
>Graham#fragrant.demon.co.uk Graham
>Sorenson
>leili#Justice.Medford.MA.US Leili
>Towfigh
>
>Abstained
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
>---
>sw.unit02.msn#cwix.com Sue Klein
>Gennario
>chris#kzim.com Christopher Robin
>Zimmerman
>tikal#mailcity.com Samandar
>Roshan-Zamir
>neilc#wallaby.stanford.edu Neil
>Crellin
>schuette#s.imap.itd.umich.edu Wade
>Schuette
>rick#helix.nih.gov Rick
>Troxel
>
>Invalid ballots
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
>---
>afshin.afrashteh#utoronto.ca Afshin
>Afrashteh
> ! Disqualified
>webmaster#muntada.com Abdul-Rashid
>Abdullah
> ! Ineligible address
>ALTAFH#aol.com
> ! No vote statement in message
>MeCraigB#aol.com Craig
>Boyd
> ! No vote statement in message
>LISTSERV#H-NET.MSU.EDU L-Soft list server at H-Net - Humanities On-Line
>(1.8c)
> ! No vote statement in message
>lbhollin#ust.hk Richard
>Hollinger
> ! No vote statement in message
>smeanver#tm.net.my
>smeanver
> ! No vote statement in message
>mezmer#globalnet.co.uk
>Bob/Zannie
> ! No vote statement in message
>
>To restore the email addresses above, pipe the ack list through the
>following command:
>
> sed -e 's/#/@/g'
>
>--
>Voting question & problems: Dave Cornejo <dave@dogwood.com>
>Voting address: vote@dogwood.com
>
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, January 17, 1999 5:03 PM
To: K. Paul Johnson
Subject: Maneck aplogizes?
Subject: Re: Paul Johnson on Maneck's slander
Date: 1/16/1999 5:05 PM Eastern Standard Time
From: Smaneck
Message-id: <19990116170503.26738.00003246@ng-cg1.aol.com>
Dear friends,
I have continued the discussion of the Gnosis article with Mr. Paul Johnson
on another list. I appears there were a number of misunderstandings. Besides
being upset with my characterization of his religious background, Mr.
Johnson believed I had compared his article to the National Enquirer and
this prompted him to accuse me of backbiting. In fact I was comparing the
National Enquirer to the discussions of community affairs that had gone on
on
Talisman, an assessment to which Mr. Johnson told me he agrees. He has since
apologized to me. I would like to apologize to Mr. Johnson as well if I have
misunderstood or misrepresented his spiritual journey in any way.
warmest,
Susan Maneck
"Lay not aside the fear of God, O ye the learned of the world, and judge
fairly"
Gleanings, p. 98
----------
From: Island Business Center (Bill Hyman)[SMTP:billh@samoatelco.com]
Sent: Monday, January 18, 1999 3:16 PM
To: FG@hotmail.com
Cc: srb
Subject: FW: RESULT: talk.religion.bahai passes 218: 63
Dear Mr. Glaysher:
Congratulations. Persistence pays off.
I am aware of the result of the TRB vote as one of the moderating team
forwarded it to the moderators from another forum, for their information.
The reason that the result has not been posted to soc.religion.bahai is that
it has not yet been received as a submission for posting. The address
bahai-faith@egroups.com is unknown to me.
If you would care to submit it I will post it. The address for submissions
is:
bahai-faith@bcca.org. I suggest that you do not include the charter as this
was already posted with the CFV and, as Baha'is believe in secret ballots, I
will take posting the names of individual voters under advisement with the
other moderators.
Our present policy is that only names and return addresses can be present in
submitters' signatures.
Bill Hyman
co-moderator
soc.religion.bahai
----------
From: "FG" <FG@hotmail.com>
To: "srb" <srb-mods@bcca.org>
Subject: RESULT: talk.religion.bahai passes 218: 63
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 15:56:07 -0500
Dear Mr. Hyman:
Since I have not seen the RESULT appear on soc.religion.bahai,
I am taking the advice of a news.groupie and sending you myself
a copy of it. You may verify its authenticity on news.groups or
news.announce.newgroups.
I'm sure people on soc.religion.bahai, having read the RFD and
the CFV, would like to hear of the RESULT.
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
--------------
RESULT
unmoderated group talk.religion.bahai passes 218:63
There were 218 YES votes and 63 NO votes, for a total of 281 valid
votes. There were 6 abstentions and 8 invalid ballots.
For a group to pass, YES votes must be at least 2/3 of all valid
(YES and NO) votes. There must also be at least 100 more YES votes
than NO votes.
A five day discussion period follows this announcement. If no
serious allegations of voting irregularities are raised, the
moderator of news.announce.newgroups will create the group shortly
thereafter.
Newsgroups line:
talk.religion.bahai Discussion of the Baha'i Faith.
Voting closed at 23:59:59 UTC, 25 Dec 1998.
This vote was conducted by a neutral third party. Questions
about the proposed group should be directed to the proponent.
Proponent: FG <FG@hotmail.com>
Proponent: Ron House <house@usq.edu.au>
Proponent: Fran Baker <fran@crhc.uiuc.edu>
Proponent: Frank Baker <fbaker@ncsa.uiuc.edu>
Proponent: John Walker <johnwalker@ozemail.com.au>
Votetaker: Dave Cornejo <dave@dogwood.com>
RATIONALE: talk.religion.bahai
The newsgroup talk.religion.bahai is proposed to meet the need for an
open and unmoderated forum for discussion of the Baha'i Faith within
the structure of the Big 8 hierarchies.
The proponents intend that talk.religion.bahai will complement, rather
than supplant, the existing moderated group soc.religion.bahai, and
will provide those without access to alt.religion.bahai the
opportunity to participate. It is noted that the alt.* hierarchy is
less well propagated than the talk.* hierarchy; this has meant that
many people who have voted YES on earlier proposals have been unable
to join discussions on alt.religion.bahai.
CHARTER: talk.religion.bahai
All topics or ideas relevant to the Baha'i faith -- its history,
teachings, theology, etc. -- would be appropriate areas for
discussion.
Talk.religion.bahai fills the need for a fully open and universally
accessible Internet forum about the Baha'i Faith. Postings may take
any point of view with regard to the Baha'i Faith. While this allows
criticism, it also fully opens the door for enquirers to see with
their own eyes and not through the eyes of their neighbors, asking
questions and reading replies from anyone who is interested in their
question.
Readers are asked to observe standard netiquette in their use of this
newsgroup.
Readers are asked to observe Baha'i standards of conduct and not to
start or prolong flamewars in the group, but to focus instead on
articles and threads written in more moderate terms.
The posting of articles not relevant to the Baha'i Faith is
prohibited. Large ASCII graphics, large binaries, pornography, spam,
and any postings of a purely personal or commercial nature are
prohibited. To facilitate viewing in news readers that are not
HTML-capable, HTML-formatted postings are strongly discouraged.
Cross-posting to irrelevant groups is also discouraged, and readers
are encouraged to redirect follow-ups to reduce excessive
cross-posting. Readers may also post articles that have been rejected
>from soc.religion.bahai, so long as they conform to this charter.
END CHARTER.
DISTRIBUTION:
In addition to the groups named in the Newsgroups: header, the CFV
and the eventual RESULT posts will be mailed to these mailing lists:
Mailing list name: Talisman
Submission address: talisman@umich.edu
Request address: jsgreen@umich.edu
Mailing list name: Bahai Studies
Submission address: bahai-st@johnco.cc.ks.us
Request address: major@johnco.cc.ks.us
Mailing list name: h-Bahai
Submission address: h-Bahai@h-net.msu.edu
Request address: jrcole@umich.edu
Mailing list name: bahai-faith
Submission address: bahai-faith@egroups.com
Request address: bahai-faith-subscribe@egroups.com
Pointers directing readers to this CFV will be posted in these groups:
alt.religion
soc.religion.eastern
soc.religion.gnosis
soc.religion.hindu
soc.religion.paganism
soc.religion.quaker
soc.religion.unitarian-univ
talk.religion.buddhism
talk.religion.newage
talk.philosophy.humanism
talk.philosophy.misc
uk.religion.interfaith
uk.religion.misc
uk.religion.other-faiths
talk.religion.bahai Final Voter list
Voted YES
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
garner#looksmart.com.au Rena
Garner
johnn#mpx.com.au John
New
mclark#tpgi.com.au Martin
Clark
house#usq.edu.au Ron
House
jmara#cyllene.uwa.edu.au Joel Jani
Marangella
ghous#osr.nsw.gov.au Gitie
House
billbrwr#compusmart.ab.ca Bill
Brewer
sugimotm#cuug.ab.ca Mike
Sugimoto
crleech#freenet.carleton.ca Colin R.
Leech
shaheedi#nbnet.nb.ca Afzal
Shaheedi
trustone#bc.sympatico.ca Akbarally
Meherally
zarepour#mathstat.uottawa.ca Mahmoud
Zarepour.
narayan123#123india.com Kanva
Narayan
tierney#alloymail.com Sal
Tierney
hanv#angelfire.com Haq
Hanvey
AAli929596#aol.com Abdulnasser
Ali
BRaynor781#aol.com
CRust60001#aol.com
FG#aol.com FG
HANI72#aol.com Hani
Ayyad
Jimo3#aol.com Jim
Overmyer
JoySafari#aol.com Marcella
Hamilton
KevinEco#aol.com Kevin
Haines
Macho786#aol.com Maaz
Khan
Member1700#aol.com Anthony A.
Lee
PParvin#aol.com
RayHanania#aol.com John
Doe
RobertNik#aol.com Robert S
Nikjoo
SAMaso#aol.com J. Eddie
Parent.
Shaksway#aol.com jim Davis
(shaksway)
Smastr#aol.com Sam
Masters
amasri#dcn.att.com Ala'a
Elmasri
macleod#beloved.com John
MacLeod
alexdawson#bigfoot.com Alex
Dawson
kindervater#businessweekmail.com "Doc"
Kindervater
tom4#canoemail.com Thomas
Buckland
sandraa#ccnmail.com S.
A.
habuhant#CH2M.com Haytham
Abu-Hantash
markow#chickmail.com Sassy
Markow
Laudrigan#collegeclub.com Bud
Laudrigan
jgoldberg#condolawyers.com Jeffrey A.
Goldberg
kathleenm#cybertrails.com McKibben
Family
eridani#databasix.com
Belinda
booda#datasync.com Martin H.
Booda
guymacon#deltanet.com guymacon#deltanet.com (Guy
Macon)
vminai#spd.dsccc.com Viqar
Minai
carducci#easypost.com Ladislaus
Carducci
UNGARINO#ECardMail.Com Eleanor
Ungarino
john_brownston#educastmail.com John
Brownston
mercado959#email.com Jennifer
Mercado
edwardiii#england.com Edward
III
stomljen#enteract.com Steve
Tomljenovic
rothbrian#mail.entrepreneurmag.com Brian
Roth
alshawa#erols.com Amer
Alshawa
shaukat#erols.com Khalid
Shaukat
tutstone#eudoramail.com Marlene
Tutstone
lopezaz#excite.com Jaime
Lopez
umaraadil#excite.com
Umar Aadil Abdul Rahman McKloskey
Abdullah
gkerley#execpc.com Gillam
Kerley
david#farrar.com David
Farrar
lucie_vendome#fcmail.com Lucie
Vendome
wilsonj#flashemail.com Jack
Wilson
runchey467#fnmail.com Jeff
Runchey
dave#frackit.com Dave
Ratcliffe
howie#giantsfan.com Ron
Howard
kendrick64#GNWMail.com Steve
Kendrick
BHoyt#goplay.com Brian
Hoyt
bjv#herbison.com B.J.
Herbison
maher#home.com Maher
Barakat
c.nunez#hotbot.com Cindy
Nunez
burnettcj#hotmail.com Clara
Frade-Burnett
shakir_husain#hotmail.com Shakir
Husain
rdetweil#boi.hp.com Dick
Detweiler
rshane#us.ibm.com Randall
Shane
goodlett#ignmail.com Jim
Goodlett
takriti#ihorizons.com Mohamad
Takriti
hopegartner#iname.com Alice
Hopegartner
matthew_cromer#iname.com Matthew
Cromer
ramirazodi#iname.com Roohi
Amirazodi
muntada#inix.com
Rashid
jaed#jaedworks.com Jeanne A. E.
DeVoto
kwame#jahoopa.com Kwame
Unanda
samorgan#java-man.com
<FONT =
r_lee#jerusalemail.com Lee
Rusan
Aansari#dc.jones.com
Aamir=20
o_elkordy#juno.com Omar El
Kordy
Christensen#kansascity.com Len
Christensen
henry42#mail.kmsp.com Henry
Wadsworth
todomanana#latino.com Miguel
Hernandez
David.Vessell#lpcorp.com David L.
Vessell
sponseller#lycosmail.com David
Sponseller
EdythBadalian#MailAndNews.com Edyth
Badalian
ogreen#mailcity.com
Ogreen
jensen29#mailtag.com Edward
Jensen
hoffman#mailwire.com Larry
Hoffman
cipher#mindspring.com
Cipher
unrein#cig.mot.com W.
Sanders-Unrein
billmc#email.msn.com Bill
McJohn
chesshazlett#email.msn.com " and be immediately
followed
olav#viking.mv.com Olav
Nieuwejaar
hyle#my-dejanews.com Sohayl
Shambashi
marifok#my-dejanews.com Arif
Muljadi
rlittle33#my-dejanews.com Robert
Little
sutherland55#netradiomail.com Lisa
Sutherland
mirele#newsguy.com Deana M.
Holmes
dmarasco#npsnet.com David
Marasco
cgruber#us.oracle.com Christian Edward
Gruber
jtidwell#animato.pn.com Jenifer P.
Tidwell
rlcarr#animato.pn.com Rich
Carreiro
ellenberg#popmail.com Jane
Ellenberg
E.Adams#pousa.com Eileen
Adams
MRaflin#PREMIER-OIL.com Muhammad
Raflin
robertwarren#prontomail.com Robert
Warren
timken#prontomail.com Ruth
Timken
Safir_Ulhaque#raytheon.com Safir
Ulhaque
jasonmeller#recyclermail.com Jason
Meller
griffin#rednecks.com Bud
Griffin
chvatel#rotfl.com David
Chvatel
maruyama#sacbeemail.com Victor
Maruyama
harold#shinsato.com Harold
Shinsato
imran#spsnet.com Imran A.
Mufti
pan#syix.com
Pan
s.humes#talk21.com Shirley
Humes
josephb#tezcat.com Joe
Bernstein
charlotte#thedorm.com Charlotte
<BR>
lininger#theheadoffice.com Lininger
<BR>
AlvartRiecker#unbounded.com Alvart
Riecker
smahmud#uop.com Shahid
Mahmud
lingel#email.women.com Sam
Lingel
haldi#worldmailer.com Kenneth
Haldi
arman_taj#yahoo.com Arman
Tajarobi
galaxy001#yahoo.com
j.s.
kruposki#yahoo.com Andrew
Krupowicz
nimans#yahoo.com Niman
Shukairy
padidehjan#yahoo.com
PadidehjAn
uhler668#yahoo.com Nancy
Uhler
kakhtar#yours.com Khalid
Akhtar
vote#kholdan.snafu.de tobias
erle
indratmoko.poerwanto#heim6.tu-clausthal.de Indratmoko
Poerwanto
cstone#uclink4.berkeley.edu Chris
Stone
nmcnelly#bu.edu N.A.F.
McNelly
hfung#CSUPomona.Edu Henry
Fung
jdeutsch#osf1.gmu.edu Jeffrey
Deutsch
jdresner#fas.harvard.edu Jonathan
Dresner
jwalbrid#indiana.edu John
Walbridge
moslem#MIT.EDU Tarik
Alatovic
osborndo#pilot.msu.edu Donald Z
Osborn
akhtars#ee.eng.ohio-state.edu Siraj
Akhtar
daas#bobcat.ent.ohiou.edu Mutaz
Daas
wajahat#bobcat.ent.ohiou.edu Wajahat A
Khan
slipstk#olemiss.edu Gordon
Smith
kopetsbj#cs.purdue.edu Brett J.
Kopetsky
DELETE_Massoud.Ajami#sdsu.edu Massoud
Ajami
fran#crhc.uiuc.edu Frances R.
Baker
fbaker#ncsa.uiuc.edu Frank
Baker
ashaikh#eecs.umich.edu Anees
Shaikh
nedsaleh#engin.umich.edu Nedal
Saleh
jrcole#umich.edu Juan
Cole
nizam#umich.edu Nizam
Arain
harinath#cs.umn.edu Raja R
Harinath
hougen#cs.umn.edu Dean
Hougen
whitl005#tc.umn.edu Jonathan R
Whitling
dbowie#sas.upenn.edu David
Bowie
aabdalla#pollux.usc.edu Ahmed
Abd-Allah
endro#sys3.cs.usu.edu Endro
Kusumo
malo#pop3.utoledo.edu Mohammed
Alo
ASyamil#uoft02.utoledo.edu John
Doe
pjohnson#vsla.edu K. Paul
Johnson
aahmed#biology.biosci.wayne.edu Aamina
Ahmed
nali#med.wayne.edu Nasima
Ali
rufinus#mbe.ece.wisc.edu J
Rufinus
Paul.S.Wolf#alum.wpi.edu Paul S.
Wolf
vsaarine#cs.Helsinki.FI Vesa
Saarinen
bmcewan#healthnet.mrc.gm Bob
McEwan.
nmas#otenet.gr Nikos
Mastrakoulis
khairol#tm.net.my Khairol Azmi
Yussof
rinerin#tm.net.my shahrin shah bin abdul
rahman
sl1pbx#ameritech.net Gene
Truto
mbkafes#bestweb.net Milissa
Boyer=20
davetayl#concentric.net David
Taylor
islam662#CSSN.NET Sabeel
Ahmed</FONT>
booko#earthlink.net Sharon
Bouchard
oreocat#ETINTERNET.NET Gary L.
King
ljmoore#freespace.net
LarryMoore
sas#frontiernet.net
Stuart S
baird#gate.net Baird
Stafford
sinanju#gateway.net John
Noland
lightspring#jps.net Thomas
Spellman
rreini#mediaone.net Roger
Reini
peterry#megalink.net
Peter=20
bmathieu#micron.net Brent
Mathieu
EPierce#ns.net Eric D.
Pierce
jonboy#onlink.net Trevor
Tymchuk
r.marsou#pmail.net Robert
Marsou
RPittman#postmark.net Richard
Pittman
trhan#serv.net Teri
Rhan
alhadid#SoftHome.net
Muhammad=20
m-t-head#surfari.net Lloyd
Madansky
ayloush#usa.net Hussam
Ayloush
ceo4life#usa.net Harry
Clinkhammer
Toadis#usa.net Andres Gutierrez de
Cos
tommycarter#usa.net Tommy
Carter
emilyjackson#webtv.net Emily
Jackson
kaitlin_forrest#zensearch.net Kaitlin
Forrest
irina#rempt.xs4all.nl Irina
Rempt
forumbahai#es.co.nz Steve
Marshall
iio#iio.org Islamic Information
Office
irshad#irshad.org Muhammad
Irshad
peewee#scc.mi.org Jason
Wright
barthelmes#studentcenter.org Sophia
Barthelmes
andrew#erlenstar.demon.co.uk Andrew
Gierth
neil#nkelley.demon.co.uk neil
kelley
Chambers#fetchmail.co.uk Scott
Chambers
SamtheMan#postmaster.co.uk
SamTHEMan
Voted NO
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
mansouri#one.net.au Shahab
Mansouri
dany.steyaert#ping.be Dany
Steyaert
carol_bowie#mindlink.bc.ca David
Bowie
towfiq#401kforum.com Mark
Towfiq
AErfani#aol.com
Hlpflhanna#aol.com Debbie
Jenkins
Mac0000013#aol.com
Starlet001#aol.com Katherine
Mayerovitch
kimdv#best.com Kim
DeVaughn
stainles#bga.com Dwight
Brown
david.ritscher#bigfoot.com David
Ritscher
r.woodlock#bigfoot.com Rachel
Butson
lcs#zk3.dec.com Larry
Smith
camm#enhanced.com Camm
Maguire
caryenochr#enochsvision.com Enoch's Vision, Inc. (Cary Enoch
R.)
wcol#erols.com William
Collins
tom-hodges#geocities.com Tom
Hodges
aromatica45#hotmail.com Victoria
Williams
bearone1#hotmail.com Gary
Rosenbaum
fazlollahi#hotmail.com Ahmad
Fazlollahi
rachel_t#hotmail.com Theresa
McClendon
screamingb#hotmail.com Screaming
Banshee
swatchking#hotmail.com Fred
Tague
jjam#spica.hpl.hp.com Jim
Jam
nightbrd#humboldt1.com Douglas
Myers
shohre#itis.com Shohreh
Mansouri
bruce.limber#juno.com Bruce D.
Limber
lpolk01#juno.com Linda L
Polk
palmtop#mailtag.com Bonnie
Blanford
djull#mindspring.com David
Jull
slr1bpz#mindspring.com George
McCoy
bfwkendo#netvigator.com Brian
Walker
chriseb#nortelnetworks.com Chris
Ebenezer
dc#panix.com David W.
Crawford
persia#persia.com Robert
Moldenhauer
Sandy-Allan#dial.pipex.com Sandy
Allan
billh#samoatelco.com Bill
Hyman
doug.obrien#the-spa.com Doug
O'Brien
manialip#wowmail.com Kate
Sparks
francis_uy#yahoo.com F
Uy
Ekkehard.Uthke#gmx.de Ekkehard
Uthke
naddy#mips.rhein-neckar.de Christian
Weisgerber
cnelson#calpoly.edu Craig
Nelson
aull#ll.mit.edu Brian
Aull
rick#bcm.tmc.edu Richard H.
Miller
kohli#mail.ameritel.net Pat
Kohli
helenko#bellsouth.net Helen
Oney
cybrmage#dave-world.net Bud
Polk
rogerb#foxinternet.net Roger
Borseth
ellis#ftel.net Rick
Ellis
vpdura#hiwaay.net Vic
Dura
Scarecro#ime.net Tim
Griffin
jcornell#lightspeed.net John B.
Cornell
verbrugh#pionet.net Albert
Verbrugh
okoboji#prodigy.net
Loriann=20
mehyar22#siol.net Mehyar
Badii-Azandahi
scooter#taranaki.ac.nz
NUFAITH#wcnet.org Dennis
Rule
tr8770#bristol.ac.uk Tom
Richards
srm103#york.ac.uk Simon
Mawhinney
merlin#A470.demon.co.uk Darren Wyn
Rees
Graham#fragrant.demon.co.uk Graham
Sorenson
leili#Justice.Medford.MA.US Leili
Towfigh
Abstained
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
sw.unit02.msn#cwix.com Sue Klein
Gennario
chris#kzim.com Christopher Robin
Zimmerman
tikal#mailcity.com Samandar
Roshan-Zamir
neilc#wallaby.stanford.edu Neil
Crellin
schuette#s.imap.itd.umich.edu Wade
Schuette
rick#helix.nih.gov Rick
Troxel
Invalid ballots
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
afshin.afrashteh#utoronto.ca Afshin
Afrashteh
! Disqualified
webmaster#muntada.com Abdul-Rashid
Abdullah
! Ineligible address
ALTAFH#aol.com
! No vote statement in message
MeCraigB#aol.com Craig
Boyd
! No vote statement in message
LISTSERV#H-NET.MSU.EDU L-Soft list server at H-Net - Humanities On-Line
(1.8c)
! No vote statement in message
lbhollin#ust.hk Richard
Hollinger
! No vote statement in message
smeanver#tm.net.my
smeanver
! No vote statement in message
mezmer#globalnet.co.uk
Bob/Zannie
! No vote statement in message
To restore the email addresses above, pipe the ack list through the
following command:
sed -e 's/#/@/g'
--
Voting question & problems: Dave Cornejo <dave@dogwood.com>
Voting address: vote@dogwood.com
----------
From: Island Business Center (Bill Hyman)[SMTP:billh@samoatelco.com]
Sent: Monday, January 18, 1999 7:18 PM
To: dave@dogwood.com
Cc: srb
Subject: FW: RESULT: talk.religion.bahai passes 218:63
Dear Mr. Cornejo:
I have been forwarded the results of the CFV for talk.religion.bahai, by Mr.
Glaysher, one of the proponents. I have no problem with posting the results,
but query posting the Rationale and the Charter, which have already been
posted on srb, but were included with the results. I consider that posting
how individuals voted is also questionable unless each voter's permission
has been obtained.I have placed these matters under advisement with the rest
of the moderating team, but I would like your views on the subject before we
make a decision.
Many thanks,
Bill Hyman
co-moderator
soc.religion.bahai
----------
From: "FG" <FG@hotmail.com>
To: <bahai-faith@bcca.org>
Subject: RESULT: talk.religion.bahai passes 218:63
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 17:25:58 -0500
From: Dave Cornejo <dave@dogwood.com>
Subject: RESULT: talk.religion.bahai passes 218:63
Date: Sunday, January 10, 1999 10:41 PM
RESULT
unmoderated group talk.religion.bahai passes 218:63
There were 218 YES votes and 63 NO votes, for a total of 281 valid
votes. There were 6 abstentions and 8 invalid ballots.
For a group to pass, YES votes must be at least 2/3 of all valid
(YES and NO) votes. There must also be at least 100 more YES votes
than NO votes.
A five day discussion period follows this announcement. If no
serious allegations of voting irregularities are raised, the
moderator of news.announce.newgroups will create the group shortly
thereafter.
Newsgroups line:
talk.religion.bahai Discussion of the Baha'i Faith.
Voting closed at 23:59:59 UTC, 25 Dec 1998.
This vote was conducted by a neutral third party. Questions
about the proposed group should be directed to the proponent.
Proponent: FG <FG@hotmail.com>
Proponent: Ron House <house@usq.edu.au>
Proponent: Fran Baker <fran@crhc.uiuc.edu>
Proponent: Frank Baker <fbaker@ncsa.uiuc.edu>
Proponent: John Walker <johnwalker@ozemail.com.au>
Votetaker: Dave Cornejo <dave@dogwood.com>
RATIONALE: talk.religion.bahai
The newsgroup talk.religion.bahai is proposed to meet the need for an
open and unmoderated forum for discussion of the Baha'i Faith within
the structure of the Big 8 hierarchies.
The proponents intend that talk.religion.bahai will complement, rather
than supplant, the existing moderated group soc.religion.bahai, and
will provide those without access to alt.religion.bahai the
opportunity to participate. It is noted that the alt.* hierarchy is
less well propagated than the talk.* hierarchy; this has meant that
many people who have voted YES on earlier proposals have been unable
to join discussions on alt.religion.bahai.
CHARTER: talk.religion.bahai
All topics or ideas relevant to the Baha'i faith -- its history,
teachings, theology, etc. -- would be appropriate areas for
discussion.
Talk.religion.bahai fills the need for a fully open and universally
accessible Internet forum about the Baha'i Faith. Postings may take
any point of view with regard to the Baha'i Faith. While this allows
criticism, it also fully opens the door for enquirers to see with
their own eyes and not through the eyes of their neighbors, asking
questions and reading replies from anyone who is interested in their
question.
Readers are asked to observe standard netiquette in their use of this
newsgroup.
Readers are asked to observe Baha'i standards of conduct and not to
start or prolong flamewars in the group, but to focus instead on
articles and threads written in more moderate terms.
The posting of articles not relevant to the Baha'i Faith is
prohibited. Large ASCII graphics, large binaries, pornography, spam,
and any postings of a purely personal or commercial nature are
prohibited. To facilitate viewing in news readers that are not
HTML-capable, HTML-formatted postings are strongly discouraged.
Cross-posting to irrelevant groups is also discouraged, and readers
are encouraged to redirect follow-ups to reduce excessive
cross-posting. Readers may also post articles that have been rejected
>from soc.religion.bahai, so long as they conform to this charter.
END CHARTER.
DISTRIBUTION:
In addition to the groups named in the Newsgroups: header, the CFV
and the eventual RESULT posts will be mailed to these mailing lists:
Mailing list name: Talisman
Submission address: talisman@umich.edu
Request address: jsgreen@umich.edu
Mailing list name: Bahai Studies
Submission address: bahai-st@johnco.cc.ks.us
Request address: major@johnco.cc.ks.us
Mailing list name: h-Bahai
Submission address: h-Bahai@h-net.msu.edu
Request address: jrcole@umich.edu
Mailing list name: bahai-faith
Submission address: bahai-faith@egroups.com
Request address: bahai-faith-subscribe@egroups.com
Pointers directing readers to this CFV will be posted in these groups:
alt.religion
soc.religion.eastern
soc.religion.gnosis
soc.religion.hindu
soc.religion.paganism
soc.religion.quaker
soc.religion.unitarian-univ
talk.religion.buddhism
talk.religion.newage
talk.philosophy.humanism
talk.philosophy.misc
uk.religion.interfaith
uk.religion.misc
uk.religion.other-faiths
talk.religion.bahai Final Voter list
Voted YES
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
garner#looksmart.com.au Rena
Garner
johnn#mpx.com.au John
New
mclark#tpgi.com.au Martin
Clark
house#usq.edu.au Ron
House
jmara#cyllene.uwa.edu.au Joel Jani
Marangella
ghous#osr.nsw.gov.au Gitie
House
billbrwr#compusmart.ab.ca Bill
Brewer
sugimotm#cuug.ab.ca Mike
Sugimoto
crleech#freenet.carleton.ca Colin R.
Leech
shaheedi#nbnet.nb.ca Afzal
Shaheedi
trustone#bc.sympatico.ca Akbarally
Meherally
zarepour#mathstat.uottawa.ca Mahmoud
Zarepour.
narayan123#123india.com Kanva
Narayan
tierney#alloymail.com Sal
Tierney
hanv#angelfire.com Haq
Hanvey
AAli929596#aol.com Abdulnasser
Ali
BRaynor781#aol.com
CRust60001#aol.com
FG#aol.com FG
HANI72#aol.com Hani
Ayyad
Jimo3#aol.com Jim
Overmyer
JoySafari#aol.com Marcella
Hamilton
KevinEco#aol.com Kevin
Haines
Macho786#aol.com Maaz
Khan
Member1700#aol.com Anthony A.
Lee
PParvin#aol.com
RayHanania#aol.com John
Doe
RobertNik#aol.com Robert S
Nikjoo
SAMaso#aol.com J. Eddie
Parent.
Shaksway#aol.com jim Davis
(shaksway)
Smastr#aol.com Sam
Masters
amasri#dcn.att.com Ala'a
Elmasri
macleod#beloved.com John
MacLeod
alexdawson#bigfoot.com Alex
Dawson
kindervater#businessweekmail.com "Doc"
Kindervater
tom4#canoemail.com Thomas
Buckland
sandraa#ccnmail.com S.
A.
habuhant#CH2M.com Haytham
Abu-Hantash
markow#chickmail.com Sassy
Markow
Laudrigan#collegeclub.com Bud
Laudrigan
jgoldberg#condolawyers.com Jeffrey A.
Goldberg
kathleenm#cybertrails.com McKibben
Family
eridani#databasix.com
Belinda
booda#datasync.com Martin H.
Booda
guymacon#deltanet.com guymacon#deltanet.com (Guy
Macon)
vminai#spd.dsccc.com Viqar
Minai
carducci#easypost.com Ladislaus
Carducci
UNGARINO#ECardMail.Com Eleanor
Ungarino
john_brownston#educastmail.com John
Brownston
mercado959#email.com Jennifer
Mercado
edwardiii#england.com Edward
III
stomljen#enteract.com Steve
Tomljenovic
rothbrian#mail.entrepreneurmag.com Brian
Roth
alshawa#erols.com Amer
Alshawa
shaukat#erols.com Khalid
Shaukat
tutstone#eudoramail.com Marlene
Tutstone
lopezaz#excite.com Jaime
Lopez
umaraadil#excite.com
Umar Aadil Abdul Rahman McKloskey
Abdullah
gkerley#execpc.com Gillam
Kerley
david#farrar.com David
Farrar
lucie_vendome#fcmail.com Lucie
Vendome
wilsonj#flashemail.com Jack
Wilson
runchey467#fnmail.com Jeff
Runchey
dave#frackit.com Dave
Ratcliffe
howie#giantsfan.com Ron
Howard
kendrick64#GNWMail.com Steve
Kendrick
BHoyt#goplay.com Brian
Hoyt
bjv#herbison.com B.J.
Herbison
maher#home.com Maher Bara
kat
c.nunez#hotbot.com Cindy
Nunez
burnettcj#hotmail.com Clara
Frade-Burnett
shakir_husain#hotmail.com Shakir
Husain
rdetweil#boi.hp.com Dick
Detweiler
rshane#us.ibm.com Randall
Shane
goodlett#ignmail.com Jim
Goodlett
takriti#ihorizons.com Mohamad
Takriti
hopegartner#iname.com Alice
Hopegartner
matthew_cromer#iname.com Matthew
Cromer
ramirazodi#iname.com Roohi
Amirazodi
muntada#inix.com
Rashid
jaed#jaedworks.com Jeanne A. E.
DeVoto
kwame#jahoopa.com Kwame
Unanda
samorgan#java-man.com
<FONT =
r_lee#jerusalemail.com Lee
Rusan
Aansari#dc.jones.com
Aamir=20
o_elkordy#juno.com Omar El
Kordy
Christensen#kansascity.com Len
Christensen
henry42#mail.kmsp.com Henry
Wadsworth
todomanana#latino.com Miguel
Hernandez
David.Vessell#lpcorp.com David L.
Vessell
sponseller#lycosmail.com David
Sponseller
EdythBadalian#MailAndNews.com Edyth
Badalian
ogreen#mailcity.com
Ogreen
jensen29#mailtag.com Edward
Jensen
hoffman#mailwire.com Larry
Hoffman
cipher#mindspring.com
Cipher
unrein#cig.mot.com W.
Sanders-Unrein
billmc#email.msn.com Bill
McJohn
chesshazlett#email.msn.com " and be immediately
followed
olav#viking.mv.com Olav
Nieuwejaar
hyle#my-dejanews.com Sohayl
Shambashi
marifok#my-dejanews.com Arif
Muljadi
rlittle33#my-dejanews.com Robert
Little
sutherland55#netradiomail.com Lisa
Sutherland
mirele#newsguy.com Deana M.
Holmes
dmarasco#npsnet.com David
Marasco
cgruber#us.oracle.com Christian Edward
Gruber
jtidwell#animato.pn.com Jenifer P.
Tidwell
rlcarr#animato.pn.com Rich
Carreiro
ellenberg#popmail.com Jane
Ellenberg
E.Adams#pousa.com Eileen
Adams
MRaflin#PREMIER-OIL.com Muhammad
Raflin
robertwarren#prontomail.com Robert
Warren
timken#prontomail.com Ruth
Timken
Safir_Ulhaque#raytheon.com Safir
Ulhaque
jasonmeller#recyclermail.com Jason
Meller
griffin#rednecks.com Bud
Griffin
chvatel#rotfl.com David
Chvatel
maruyama#sacbeemail.com Victor
Maruyama
harold#shinsato.com Harold
Shinsato
imran#spsnet.com Imran A.
Mufti
pan#syix.com
Pan
s.humes#talk21.com Shirley
Humes
josephb#tezcat.com Joe
Bernstein
charlotte#thedorm.com Charlotte
<BR>
lininger#theheadoffice.com Lininger
<BR>
AlvartRiecker#unbounded.com Alvart
Riecker
smahmud#uop.com Shahid
Mahmud
lingel#email.women.com Sam
Lingel
haldi#worldmailer.com Kenneth
Haldi
arman_taj#yahoo.com Arman
Tajarobi
galaxy001#yahoo.com
j.s.
kruposki#yahoo.com Andrew
Krupowicz
nimans#yahoo.com Niman
Shukairy
padidehjan#yahoo.com
PadidehjAn
uhler668#yahoo.com Nancy
Uhler
kakhtar#yours.com Khalid
Akhtar
vote#kholdan.snafu.de tobias
erle
indratmoko.poerwanto#heim6.tu-clausthal.de Indratmoko
Poerwanto
cstone#uclink4.berkeley.edu Chris
Stone
nmcnelly#bu.edu N.A.F.
McNelly
hfung#CSUPomona.Edu Henry
Fung
jdeutsch#osf1.gmu.edu Jeffrey
Deutsch
jdresner#fas.harvard.edu Jonathan
Dresner
jwalbrid#indiana.edu John
Walbridge
moslem#MIT.EDU Tarik
Alatovic
osborndo#pilot.msu.edu Donald Z
Osborn
akhtars#ee.eng.ohio-state.edu Siraj
Akhtar
daas#bobcat.ent.ohiou.edu Mutaz
Daas
wajahat#bobcat.ent.ohiou.edu Wajahat A
Khan
slipstk#olemiss.edu Gordon
Smith
kopetsbj#cs.purdue.edu Brett J.
Kopetsky
DELETE_Massoud.Ajami#sdsu.edu Massoud
Ajami
fran#crhc.uiuc.edu Frances R.
Baker
fbaker#ncsa.uiuc.edu Frank
Baker
ashaikh#eecs.umich.edu Anees
Shaikh
nedsaleh#engin.umich.edu Nedal
Saleh
jrcole#umich.edu Juan
Cole
nizam#umich.edu Nizam
Arain
harinath#cs.umn.edu Raja R
Harinath
hougen#cs.umn.edu Dean
Hougen
whitl005#tc.umn.edu Jonathan R
Whitling
dbowie#sas.upenn.edu David
Bowie
aabdalla#pollux.usc.edu Ahmed
Abd-Allah
endro#sys3.cs.usu.edu Endro
Kusumo
malo#pop3.utoledo.edu Mohammed
Alo
ASyamil#uoft02.utoledo.edu John
Doe
pjohnson#vsla.edu K. Paul
Johnson
aahmed#biology.biosci.wayne.edu Aamina
Ahmed
nali#med.wayne.edu Nasima
Ali
rufinus#mbe.ece.wisc.edu J
Rufinus
Paul.S.Wolf#alum.wpi.edu Paul S.
Wolf
vsaarine#cs.Helsinki.FI Vesa
Saarinen
bmcewan#healthnet.mrc.gm Bob
McEwan.
nmas#otenet.gr Nikos
Mastrakoulis
khairol#tm.net.my Khairol Azmi
Yussof
rinerin#tm.net.my shahrin shah bin abdul
rahman
sl1pbx#ameritech.net Gene
Truto
mbkafes#bestweb.net Milissa
Boyer=20
davetayl#concentric.net David
Taylor
islam662#CSSN.NET Sabeel
Ahmed</FONT>
booko#earthlink.net Sharon
Bouchard
oreocat#ETINTERNET.NET Gary L.
King
ljmoore#freespace.net
LarryMoore
sas#frontiernet.net
Stuart S
baird#gate.net Baird
Stafford
sinanju#gateway.net John
Noland
lightspring#jps.net Thomas
Spellman
rreini#mediaone.net Roger
Reini
peterry#megalink.net
Peter=20
bmathieu#micron.net Brent
Mathieu
EPierce#ns.net Eric D.
Pierce
jonboy#onlink.net Trevor
Tymchuk
r.marsou#pmail.net Robert
Marsou
RPittman#postmark.net Richard
Pittman
trhan#serv.net Teri
Rhan
alhadid#SoftHome.net
Muhammad=20
m-t-head#surfari.net Lloyd
Madansky
ayloush#usa.net Hussam
Ayloush
ceo4life#usa.net Harry
Clinkhammer
Toadis#usa.net Andres Gutierrez de
Cos
tommycarter#usa.net Tommy
Carter
emilyjackson#webtv.net Emily
Jackson
kaitlin_forrest#zensearch.net Kaitlin
Forrest
irina#rempt.xs4all.nl Irina
Rempt
forumbahai#es.co.nz Steve
Marshall
iio#iio.org Islamic Information
Office
irshad#irshad.org Muhammad
Irshad
peewee#scc.mi.org Jason
Wright
barthelmes#studentcenter.org Sophia
Barthelmes
andrew#erlenstar.demon.co.uk Andrew
Gierth
neil#nkelley.demon.co.uk neil
kelley
Chambers#fetchmail.co.uk Scott
Chambers
SamtheMan#postmaster.co.uk
SamTHEMan
Voted NO
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
mansouri#one.net.au Shahab
Mansouri
dany.steyaert#ping.be Dany
Steyaert
carol_bowie#mindlink.bc.ca David
Bowie
towfiq#401kforum.com Mark
Towfiq
AErfani#aol.com
Hlpflhanna#aol.com Debbie
Jenkins
Mac0000013#aol.com
Starlet001#aol.com Katherine
Mayerovitch
kimdv#best.com Kim
DeVaughn
stainles#bga.com Dwight
Brown
david.ritscher#bigfoot.com David
Ritscher
r.woodlock#bigfoot.com Rachel
Butson
lcs#zk3.dec.com Larry
Smith
camm#enhanced.com Camm
Maguire
caryenochr#enochsvision.com Enoch's Vision, Inc. (Cary Enoch
R.)
wcol#erols.com William
Collins
tom-hodges#geocities.com Tom
Hodges
aromatica45#hotmail.com Victoria
Williams
bearone1#hotmail.com Gary
Rosenbaum
fazlollahi#hotmail.com Ahmad
Fazlollahi
rachel_t#hotmail.com Theresa
McClendon
screamingb#hotmail.com Screaming
Banshee
swatchking#hotmail.com Fred
Tague
jjam#spica.hpl.hp.com Jim
Jam
nightbrd#humboldt1.com Douglas
Myers
shohre#itis.com Shohreh
Mansouri
bruce.limber#juno.com Bruce D.
Limber
lpolk01#juno.com Linda L
Polk
palmtop#mailtag.com Bonnie
Blanford
djull#mindspring.com David
Jull
slr1bpz#mindspring.com George
McCoy
bfwkendo#netvigator.com Brian
Walker
chriseb#nortelnetworks.com Chris
Ebenezer
dc#panix.com David W.
Crawford
persia#persia.com Robert
Moldenhauer
Sandy-Allan#dial.pipex.com Sandy
Allan
billh#samoatelco.com Bill
Hyman
doug.obrien#the-spa.com Doug
O'Brien
manialip#wowmail.com Kate
Sparks
francis_uy#yahoo.com F
Uy
Ekkehard.Uthke#gmx.de Ekkehard
Uthke
naddy#mips.rhein-neckar.de Christian
Weisgerber
cnelson#calpoly.edu Craig
Nelson
aull#ll.mit.edu Brian
Aull
rick#bcm.tmc.edu Richard H.
Miller
kohli#mail.ameritel.net Pat
Kohli
helenko#bellsouth.net Helen
Oney
cybrmage#dave-world.net Bud
Polk
rogerb#foxinternet.net Roger
Borseth
ellis#ftel.net Rick
Ellis
vpdura#hiwaay.net Vic
Dura
Scarecro#ime.net Tim
Griffin
jcornell#lightspeed.net John B.
Cornell
verbrugh#pionet.net Albert
Verbrugh
okoboji#prodigy.net
Loriann=20
mehyar22#siol.net Mehyar
Badii-Azandahi
scooter#taranaki.ac.nz
NUFAITH#wcnet.org Dennis
Rule
tr8770#bristol.ac.uk Tom
Richards
srm103#york.ac.uk Simon
Mawhinney
merlin#A470.demon.co.uk Darren Wyn
Rees
Graham#fragrant.demon.co.uk Graham
Sorenson
leili#Justice.Medford.MA.US Leili
Towfigh
Abstained
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
sw.unit02.msn#cwix.com Sue Klein
Gennario
chris#kzim.com Christopher Robin
Zimmerman
tikal#mailcity.com Samandar
Roshan-Zamir
neilc#wallaby.stanford.edu Neil
Crellin
schuette#s.imap.itd.umich.edu Wade
Schuette
rick#helix.nih.gov Rick
Troxel
Invalid ballots
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
afshin.afrashteh#utoronto.ca Afshin
Afrashteh
! Disqualified
webmaster#muntada.com Abdul-Rashid
Abdullah
! Ineligible address
ALTAFH#aol.com
! No vote statement in message
MeCraigB#aol.com Craig
Boyd
! No vote statement in message
LISTSERV#H-NET.MSU.EDU L-Soft list server at H-Net - Humanities On-Line
(1.8c)
! No vote statement in message
lbhollin#ust.hk Richard
Hollinger
! No vote statement in message
smeanver#tm.net.my
smeanver
! No vote statement in message
mezmer#globalnet.co.uk
Bob/Zannie
! No vote statement in message
To restore the email addresses above, pipe the ack list through the
following command:
sed -e 's/#/@/g'
--
Voting question & problems: Dave Cornejo <dave@dogwood.com>
Voting address: vote@dogwood.com
----------
From: Island Business Center (Bill Hyman)[SMTP:billh@samoatelco.com]
Sent: Monday, January 18, 1999 9:15 PM
To: FG
Cc: dave@dogwood.com
Subject: Re: RESULT: talk.religion.bahai passes 218:63
Dear Mr. Glaysher:
Your submission containing the results of the CFV for talk.religion.bahai
will be replaced by the official report which has been requested.
Bill Hyman
co-moderator
soc.religion.bahai
----------
> From: "FG" <FG@hotmail.com>
> To: <bahai-faith@bcca.org>
> Subject: RESULT: talk.religion.bahai passes 218:63
> Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 17:25:58 -0500
>
>From: Dave Cornejo <dave@dogwood.com>
>Subject: RESULT: talk.religion.bahai passes 218:63
>Date: Sunday, January 10, 1999 10:41 PM
>
> RESULT
> unmoderated group talk.religion.bahai passes 218:63
>
>There were 218 YES votes and 63 NO votes, for a total of 281 valid
>votes. There were 6 abstentions and 8 invalid ballots.
>
>For a group to pass, YES votes must be at least 2/3 of all valid
>(YES and NO) votes. There must also be at least 100 more YES votes
>than NO votes.
>
>A five day discussion period follows this announcement. If no
>serious allegations of voting irregularities are raised, the
>moderator of news.announce.newgroups will create the group shortly
>thereafter.
>
>Newsgroups line:
>talk.religion.bahai Discussion of the Baha'i Faith.
>
>Voting closed at 23:59:59 UTC, 25 Dec 1998.
>
>This vote was conducted by a neutral third party. Questions
>about the proposed group should be directed to the proponent.
>
>Proponent: FG <FG@hotmail.com>
>Proponent: Ron House <house@usq.edu.au>
>Proponent: Fran Baker <fran@crhc.uiuc.edu>
>Proponent: Frank Baker <fbaker@ncsa.uiuc.edu>
>Proponent: John Walker <johnwalker@ozemail.com.au>
>Votetaker: Dave Cornejo <dave@dogwood.com>
>
>RATIONALE: talk.religion.bahai
>
>The newsgroup talk.religion.bahai is proposed to meet the need for an
>open and unmoderated forum for discussion of the Baha'i Faith within
>the structure of the Big 8 hierarchies.
>
>The proponents intend that talk.religion.bahai will complement, rather
>than supplant, the existing moderated group soc.religion.bahai, and
>will provide those without access to alt.religion.bahai the
>opportunity to participate. It is noted that the alt.* hierarchy is
>less well propagated than the talk.* hierarchy; this has meant that
>many people who have voted YES on earlier proposals have been unable
>to join discussions on alt.religion.bahai.
>
>CHARTER: talk.religion.bahai
>
>All topics or ideas relevant to the Baha'i faith -- its history,
>teachings, theology, etc. -- would be appropriate areas for
>discussion.
>
>Talk.religion.bahai fills the need for a fully open and universally
>accessible Internet forum about the Baha'i Faith. Postings may take
>any point of view with regard to the Baha'i Faith. While this allows
>criticism, it also fully opens the door for enquirers to see with
>their own eyes and not through the eyes of their neighbors, asking
>questions and reading replies from anyone who is interested in their
>question.
>
>Readers are asked to observe standard netiquette in their use of this
>newsgroup.
>
>Readers are asked to observe Baha'i standards of conduct and not to
>start or prolong flamewars in the group, but to focus instead on
>articles and threads written in more moderate terms.
>
>The posting of articles not relevant to the Baha'i Faith is
>prohibited. Large ASCII graphics, large binaries, pornography, spam,
>and any postings of a purely personal or commercial nature are
>prohibited. To facilitate viewing in news readers that are not
>HTML-capable, HTML-formatted postings are strongly discouraged.
>
>Cross-posting to irrelevant groups is also discouraged, and readers
>are encouraged to redirect follow-ups to reduce excessive
>cross-posting. Readers may also post articles that have been rejected
>>from soc.religion.bahai, so long as they conform to this charter.
>
>END CHARTER.
>
>
>DISTRIBUTION:
>
>In addition to the groups named in the Newsgroups: header, the CFV
>and the eventual RESULT posts will be mailed to these mailing lists:
>
>Mailing list name: Talisman
>Submission address: talisman@umich.edu
>Request address: jsgreen@umich.edu
>
>Mailing list name: Bahai Studies
>Submission address: bahai-st@johnco.cc.ks.us
>Request address: major@johnco.cc.ks.us
>
>Mailing list name: h-Bahai
>Submission address: h-Bahai@h-net.msu.edu
>Request address: jrcole@umich.edu
>
>Mailing list name: bahai-faith
>Submission address: bahai-faith@egroups.com
>Request address: bahai-faith-subscribe@egroups.com
>
>Pointers directing readers to this CFV will be posted in these groups:
>
>alt.religion
>soc.religion.eastern
>soc.religion.gnosis
>soc.religion.hindu
>soc.religion.paganism
>soc.religion.quaker
>soc.religion.unitarian-univ
>talk.religion.buddhism
>talk.religion.newage
>talk.philosophy.humanism
>talk.philosophy.misc
>uk.religion.interfaith
>uk.religion.misc
>uk.religion.other-faiths
>
>
>
>talk.religion.bahai Final Voter list
>
>Voted YES
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
>---
>garner#looksmart.com.au Rena
>Garner
>johnn#mpx.com.au John
>New
>mclark#tpgi.com.au Martin
>Clark
>house#usq.edu.au Ron
>House
>jmara#cyllene.uwa.edu.au Joel Jani
>Marangella
>ghous#osr.nsw.gov.au Gitie
>House
>billbrwr#compusmart.ab.ca Bill
>Brewer
>sugimotm#cuug.ab.ca Mike
>Sugimoto
>crleech#freenet.carleton.ca Colin R.
>Leech
>shaheedi#nbnet.nb.ca Afzal
>Shaheedi
>trustone#bc.sympatico.ca Akbarally
>Meherally
>zarepour#mathstat.uottawa.ca Mahmoud
>Zarepour.
>narayan123#123india.com Kanva
>Narayan
>tierney#alloymail.com Sal
>Tierney
>hanv#angelfire.com Haq
>Hanvey
>AAli929596#aol.com Abdulnasser
>Ali
>BRaynor781#aol.com
>CRust60001#aol.com
>FG#aol.com Frederick
>Glaysher
>HANI72#aol.com Hani
>Ayyad
>Jimo3#aol.com Jim
>Overmyer
>JoySafari#aol.com Marcella
>Hamilton
>KevinEco#aol.com Kevin
>Haines
>Macho786#aol.com Maaz
>Khan
>Member1700#aol.com Anthony A.
>Lee
>PParvin#aol.com
>RayHanania#aol.com John
>Doe
>RobertNik#aol.com Robert S
>Nikjoo
>SAMaso#aol.com J. Eddie
>Parent.
>Shaksway#aol.com jim Davis
>(shaksway)
>Smastr#aol.com Sam
>Masters
>amasri#dcn.att.com Ala'a
>Elmasri
>macleod#beloved.com John
>MacLeod
>alexdawson#bigfoot.com Alex
>Dawson
>kindervater#businessweekmail.com "Doc"
>Kindervater
>tom4#canoemail.com Thomas
>Buckland
>sandraa#ccnmail.com
S.
>A.
>habuhant#CH2M.com Haytham
>Abu-Hantash
>markow#chickmail.com Sassy
>Markow
>Laudrigan#collegeclub.com Bud
>Laudrigan
>jgoldberg#condolawyers.com Jeffrey A.
>Goldberg
>kathleenm#cybertrails.com McKibben
>Family
>eridani#databasix.com
>Belinda
>booda#datasync.com Martin H.
>Booda
>guymacon#deltanet.com guymacon#deltanet.com (Guy
>Macon)
>vminai#spd.dsccc.com Viqar
>Minai
>carducci#easypost.com Ladislaus
>Carducci
>UNGARINO#ECardMail.Com Eleanor
>Ungarino
>john_brownston#educastmail.com John
>Brownston
>mercado959#email.com Jennifer
>Mercado
>edwardiii#england.com Edward
>III
>stomljen#enteract.com Steve
>Tomljenovic
>rothbrian#mail.entrepreneurmag.com Brian
>Roth
>alshawa#erols.com Amer
>Alshawa
>shaukat#erols.com Khalid
>Shaukat
>tutstone#eudoramail.com Marlene
>Tutstone
>lopezaz#excite.com Jaime
>Lopez
>umaraadil#excite.com
> Umar Aadil Abdul Rahman McKloskey
>Abdullah
>gkerley#execpc.com Gillam
>Kerley
>david#farrar.com David
>Farrar
>lucie_vendome#fcmail.com Lucie
>Vendome
>wilsonj#flashemail.com Jack
>Wilson
>runchey467#fnmail.com Jeff
>Runchey
>dave#frackit.com Dave
>Ratcliffe
>howie#giantsfan.com Ron
>Howard
>kendrick64#GNWMail.com Steve
>Kendrick
>BHoyt#goplay.com Brian
>Hoyt
>bjv#herbison.com B.J.
>Herbison
>maher#home.com Maher
Bara
>kat
>c.nunez#hotbot.com Cindy
>Nunez
>burnettcj#hotmail.com Clara
>Frade-Burnett
>shakir_husain#hotmail.com Shakir
>Husain
>rdetweil#boi.hp.com Dick
>Detweiler
>rshane#us.ibm.com Randall
>Shane
>goodlett#ignmail.com Jim
>Goodlett
>takriti#ihorizons.com Mohamad
>Takriti
>hopegartner#iname.com Alice
>Hopegartner
>matthew_cromer#iname.com Matthew
>Cromer
>ramirazodi#iname.com Roohi
>Amirazodi
>muntada#inix.com
>Rashid
>jaed#jaedworks.com Jeanne A. E.
>DeVoto
>kwame#jahoopa.com Kwame
>Unanda
>samorgan#java-man.com
><FONT =
>r_lee#jerusalemail.com Lee
>Rusan
>Aansari#dc.jones.com
>Aamir=20
>o_elkordy#juno.com Omar El
>Kordy
>Christensen#kansascity.com Len
>Christensen
>henry42#mail.kmsp.com Henry
>Wadsworth
>todomanana#latino.com Miguel
>Hernandez
>David.Vessell#lpcorp.com David L.
>Vessell
>sponseller#lycosmail.com David
>Sponseller
>EdythBadalian#MailAndNews.com Edyth
>Badalian
>ogreen#mailcity.com
>Ogreen
>jensen29#mailtag.com Edward
>Jensen
>hoffman#mailwire.com Larry
>Hoffman
>cipher#mindspring.com
>Cipher
>unrein#cig.mot.com W.
>Sanders-Unrein
>billmc#email.msn.com Bill
>McJohn
>chesshazlett#email.msn.com " and be immediately
>followed
>olav#viking.mv.com Olav
>Nieuwejaar
>hyle#my-dejanews.com Sohayl
>Shambashi
>marifok#my-dejanews.com Arif
>Muljadi
>rlittle33#my-dejanews.com Robert
>Little
>sutherland55#netradiomail.com Lisa
>Sutherland
>mirele#newsguy.com Deana M.
>Holmes
>dmarasco#npsnet.com David
>Marasco
>cgruber#us.oracle.com Christian Edward
>Gruber
>jtidwell#animato.pn.com Jenifer P.
>Tidwell
>rlcarr#animato.pn.com Rich
>Carreiro
>ellenberg#popmail.com Jane
>Ellenberg
>E.Adams#pousa.com Eileen
>Adams
>MRaflin#PREMIER-OIL.com Muhammad
>Raflin
>robertwarren#prontomail.com Robert
>Warren
>timken#prontomail.com Ruth
>Timken
>Safir_Ulhaque#raytheon.com Safir
>Ulhaque
>jasonmeller#recyclermail.com Jason
>Meller
>griffin#rednecks.com Bud
>Griffin
>chvatel#rotfl.com David
>Chvatel
>maruyama#sacbeemail.com Victor
>Maruyama
>harold#shinsato.com Harold
>Shinsato
>imran#spsnet.com Imran A.
>Mufti
>pan#syix.com
>Pan
>s.humes#talk21.com Shirley
>Humes
>josephb#tezcat.com Joe
>Bernstein
>charlotte#thedorm.com Charlotte
><BR>
>lininger#theheadoffice.com Lininger
><BR>
>AlvartRiecker#unbounded.com Alvart
>Riecker
>smahmud#uop.com Shahid
>Mahmud
>lingel#email.women.com Sam
>Lingel
>haldi#worldmailer.com Kenneth
>Haldi
>arman_taj#yahoo.com Arman
>Tajarobi
>galaxy001#yahoo.com
>j.s.
>kruposki#yahoo.com Andrew
>Krupowicz
>nimans#yahoo.com Niman
>Shukairy
>padidehjan#yahoo.com
>PadidehjAn
>uhler668#yahoo.com Nancy
>Uhler
>kakhtar#yours.com Khalid
>Akhtar
>vote#kholdan.snafu.de tobias
>erle
>indratmoko.poerwanto#heim6.tu-clausthal.de Indratmoko
>Poerwanto
>cstone#uclink4.berkeley.edu Chris
>Stone
>nmcnelly#bu.edu N.A.F.
>McNelly
>hfung#CSUPomona.Edu Henry
>Fung
>jdeutsch#osf1.gmu.edu Jeffrey
>Deutsch
>jdresner#fas.harvard.edu Jonathan
>Dresner
>jwalbrid#indiana.edu John
>Walbridge
>moslem#MIT.EDU Tarik
>Alatovic
>osborndo#pilot.msu.edu Donald Z
>Osborn
>akhtars#ee.eng.ohio-state.edu Siraj
>Akhtar
>daas#bobcat.ent.ohiou.edu Mutaz
>Daas
>wajahat#bobcat.ent.ohiou.edu Wajahat A
>Khan
>slipstk#olemiss.edu Gordon
>Smith
>kopetsbj#cs.purdue.edu Brett J.
>Kopetsky
>DELETE_Massoud.Ajami#sdsu.edu Massoud
>Ajami
>fran#crhc.uiuc.edu Frances R.
>Baker
>fbaker#ncsa.uiuc.edu Frank
>Baker
>ashaikh#eecs.umich.edu Anees
>Shaikh
>nedsaleh#engin.umich.edu Nedal
>Saleh
>jrcole#umich.edu Juan
>Cole
>nizam#umich.edu Nizam
>Arain
>harinath#cs.umn.edu Raja R
>Harinath
>hougen#cs.umn.edu Dean
>Hougen
>whitl005#tc.umn.edu Jonathan R
>Whitling
>dbowie#sas.upenn.edu David
>Bowie
>aabdalla#pollux.usc.edu Ahmed
>Abd-Allah
>endro#sys3.cs.usu.edu Endro
>Kusumo
>malo#pop3.utoledo.edu Mohammed
>Alo
>ASyamil#uoft02.utoledo.edu John
>Doe
>pjohnson#vsla.edu K. Paul
>Johnson
>aahmed#biology.biosci.wayne.edu Aamina
>Ahmed
>nali#med.wayne.edu Nasima
>Ali
>rufinus#mbe.ece.wisc.edu J
>Rufinus
>Paul.S.Wolf#alum.wpi.edu Paul S.
>Wolf
>vsaarine#cs.Helsinki.FI Vesa
>Saarinen
>bmcewan#healthnet.mrc.gm Bob
>McEwan.
>nmas#otenet.gr Nikos
>Mastrakoulis
>khairol#tm.net.my Khairol Azmi
>Yussof
>rinerin#tm.net.my shahrin shah bin abdul
>rahman
>sl1pbx#ameritech.net Gene
>Truto
>mbkafes#bestweb.net Milissa
>Boyer=20
>davetayl#concentric.net David
>Taylor
>islam662#CSSN.NET Sabeel
>Ahmed</FONT>
>booko#earthlink.net Sharon
>Bouchard
>oreocat#ETINTERNET.NET Gary L.
>King
>ljmoore#freespace.net
>LarryMoore
>sas#frontiernet.net
>Stuart S
>baird#gate.net Baird
>Stafford
>sinanju#gateway.net John
>Noland
>lightspring#jps.net Thomas
>Spellman
>rreini#mediaone.net Roger
>Reini
>peterry#megalink.net
>Peter=20
>bmathieu#micron.net Brent
>Mathieu
>EPierce#ns.net Eric D.
>Pierce
>jonboy#onlink.net Trevor
>Tymchuk
>r.marsou#pmail.net Robert
>Marsou
>RPittman#postmark.net Richard
>Pittman
>trhan#serv.net Teri
>Rhan
>alhadid#SoftHome.net
>Muhammad=20
>m-t-head#surfari.net Lloyd
>Madansky
>ayloush#usa.net Hussam
>Ayloush
>ceo4life#usa.net Harry
>Clinkhammer
>Toadis#usa.net Andres Gutierrez de
>Cos
>tommycarter#usa.net Tommy
>Carter
>emilyjackson#webtv.net Emily
>Jackson
>kaitlin_forrest#zensearch.net Kaitlin
>Forrest
>irina#rempt.xs4all.nl Irina
>Rempt
>forumbahai#es.co.nz Steve
>Marshall
>iio#iio.org Islamic Information
>Office
>irshad#irshad.org Muhammad
>Irshad
>peewee#scc.mi.org Jason
>Wright
>barthelmes#studentcenter.org Sophia
>Barthelmes
>andrew#erlenstar.demon.co.uk Andrew
>Gierth
>neil#nkelley.demon.co.uk neil
>kelley
>Chambers#fetchmail.co.uk Scott
>Chambers
>SamtheMan#postmaster.co.uk
>SamTHEMan
>
>Voted NO
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
>---
>mansouri#one.net.au Shahab
>Mansouri
>dany.steyaert#ping.be Dany
>Steyaert
>carol_bowie#mindlink.bc.ca David
>Bowie
>towfiq#401kforum.com Mark
>Towfiq
>AErfani#aol.com
>Hlpflhanna#aol.com Debbie
>Jenkins
>Mac0000013#aol.com
>Starlet001#aol.com Katherine
>Mayerovitch
>kimdv#best.com Kim
>DeVaughn
>stainles#bga.com Dwight
>Brown
>david.ritscher#bigfoot.com David
>Ritscher
>r.woodlock#bigfoot.com Rachel
>Butson
>lcs#zk3.dec.com Larry
>Smith
>camm#enhanced.com Camm
>Maguire
>caryenochr#enochsvision.com Enoch's Vision, Inc. (Cary Enoch
>R.)
>wcol#erols.com William
>Collins
>tom-hodges#geocities.com Tom
>Hodges
>aromatica45#hotmail.com Victoria
>Williams
>bearone1#hotmail.com Gary
>Rosenbaum
>fazlollahi#hotmail.com Ahmad
>Fazlollahi
>rachel_t#hotmail.com Theresa
>McClendon
>screamingb#hotmail.com Screaming
>Banshee
>swatchking#hotmail.com Fred
>Tague
>jjam#spica.hpl.hp.com Jim
>Jam
>nightbrd#humboldt1.com Douglas
>Myers
>shohre#itis.com Shohreh
>Mansouri
>bruce.limber#juno.com Bruce D.
>Limber
>lpolk01#juno.com Linda L
>Polk
>palmtop#mailtag.com Bonnie
>Blanford
>djull#mindspring.com David
>Jull
>slr1bpz#mindspring.com George
>McCoy
>bfwkendo#netvigator.com Brian
>Walker
>chriseb#nortelnetworks.com Chris
>Ebenezer
>dc#panix.com David W.
>Crawford
>persia#persia.com Robert
>Moldenhauer
>Sandy-Allan#dial.pipex.com Sandy
>Allan
>billh#samoatelco.com Bill
>Hyman
>doug.obrien#the-spa.com Doug
>O'Brien
>manialip#wowmail.com Kate
>Sparks
>francis_uy#yahoo.com
F
>Uy
>Ekkehard.Uthke#gmx.de Ekkehard
>Uthke
>naddy#mips.rhein-neckar.de Christian
>Weisgerber
>cnelson#calpoly.edu Craig
>Nelson
>aull#ll.mit.edu Brian
>Aull
>rick#bcm.tmc.edu Richard H.
>Miller
>kohli#mail.ameritel.net Pat
>Kohli
>helenko#bellsouth.net Helen
>Oney
>cybrmage#dave-world.net Bud
>Polk
>rogerb#foxinternet.net Roger
>Borseth
>ellis#ftel.net Rick
>Ellis
>vpdura#hiwaay.net Vic
>Dura
>Scarecro#ime.net Tim
>Griffin
>jcornell#lightspeed.net John B.
>Cornell
>verbrugh#pionet.net Albert
>Verbrugh
>okoboji#prodigy.net
>Loriann=20
>mehyar22#siol.net Mehyar
>Badii-Azandahi
>scooter#taranaki.ac.nz
>NUFAITH#wcnet.org Dennis
>Rule
>tr8770#bristol.ac.uk Tom
>Richards
>srm103#york.ac.uk Simon
>Mawhinney
>merlin#A470.demon.co.uk Darren Wyn
>Rees
>Graham#fragrant.demon.co.uk Graham
>Sorenson
>leili#Justice.Medford.MA.US Leili
>Towfigh
>
>Abstained
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
>---
>sw.unit02.msn#cwix.com Sue Klein
>Gennario
>chris#kzim.com Christopher Robin
>Zimmerman
>tikal#mailcity.com Samandar
>Roshan-Zamir
>neilc#wallaby.stanford.edu Neil
>Crellin
>schuette#s.imap.itd.umich.edu Wade
>Schuette
>rick#helix.nih.gov Rick
>Troxel
>
>Invalid ballots
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
>---
>afshin.afrashteh#utoronto.ca Afshin
>Afrashteh
> ! Disqualified
>webmaster#muntada.com Abdul-Rashid
>Abdullah
> ! Ineligible address
>ALTAFH#aol.com
> ! No vote statement in message
>MeCraigB#aol.com Craig
>Boyd
> ! No vote statement in message
>LISTSERV#H-NET.MSU.EDU L-Soft list server at H-Net - Humanities On-Line
>(1.8c)
> ! No vote statement in message
>lbhollin#ust.hk Richard
>Hollinger
> ! No vote statement in message
>smeanver#tm.net.my
>smeanver
> ! No vote statement in message
>mezmer#globalnet.co.uk
>Bob/Zannie
> ! No vote statement in message
>
>To restore the email addresses above, pipe the ack list through the
>following command:
>
> sed -e 's/#/@/g'
>
>--
>Voting question & problems: Dave Cornejo <dave@dogwood.com>
>Voting address: vote@dogwood.com
>
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Monday, January 18, 1999 6:23 PM
To: Island Business Center (Bill Hyman)
Subject: Re: RESULT: talk.religion.bahai passes 218: 63
-----Original Message-----
From: Island Business Center (Bill Hyman) <billh@samoatelco.com>
To: FG@hotmail.com <FG@hotmail.com>
Cc: srb <srb-mods@bcca.org>
Date: Sunday, January 17, 1999 5:28 PM
Subject: FW: RESULT: talk.religion.bahai passes 218: 63
>Dear Mr. Glaysher:
>
>Congratulations. Persistence pays off.
>
>I am aware of the result of the TRB vote as one of the moderating team
>forwarded it to the moderators from another forum, for their information.
>The reason that the result has not been posted to soc.religion.bahai is
that
>it has not yet been received as a submission for posting. The address
>bahai-faith@egroups.com is unknown to me.
>
>If you would care to submit it I will post it. The address for submissions
>is:
>bahai-faith@bcca.org. I suggest that you do not include the charter as this
>was already posted with the CFV and, as Baha'is believe in secret ballots,
I
>will take posting the names of individual voters under advisement with the
>other moderators.
I do not believe either one of us has the authority to
delete the charter from the RESULT. It is part of the
document and appears properly in each stage of the
group formation process as regularly observed on
Usenet. I am therefore sending you the original RESULT
in a separate message to the address above.
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
>
>Our present policy is that only names and return addresses can be present
in
>submitters' signatures.
>
>Bill Hyman
>co-moderator
>soc.religion.bahai
>----------
>From: "FG" <FG@hotmail.com>
>To: "srb" <srb-mods@bcca.org>
>Subject: RESULT: talk.religion.bahai passes 218: 63
>Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 15:56:07 -0500
>
>Dear Mr. Hyman:
>
>Since I have not seen the RESULT appear on soc.religion.bahai,
>I am taking the advice of a news.groupie and sending you myself
>a copy of it. You may verify its authenticity on news.groups or
>news.announce.newgroups.
>
>I'm sure people on soc.religion.bahai, having read the RFD and
>the CFV, would like to hear of the RESULT.
>
>FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
>https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
>alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
>
>
>
>--------------
> RESULT
> unmoderated group talk.religion.bahai passes 218:63
>
>There were 218 YES votes and 63 NO votes, for a total of 281 valid
>votes. There were 6 abstentions and 8 invalid ballots.
>
>For a group to pass, YES votes must be at least 2/3 of all valid
>(YES and NO) votes. There must also be at least 100 more YES votes
>than NO votes.
>
>A five day discussion period follows this announcement. If no
>serious allegations of voting irregularities are raised, the
>moderator of news.announce.newgroups will create the group shortly
>thereafter.
>
>Newsgroups line:
>talk.religion.bahai Discussion of the Baha'i Faith.
>
>Voting closed at 23:59:59 UTC, 25 Dec 1998.
>
>This vote was conducted by a neutral third party. Questions
>about the proposed group should be directed to the proponent.
>
>Proponent: FG <FG@hotmail.com>
>Proponent: Ron House <house@usq.edu.au>
>Proponent: Fran Baker <fran@crhc.uiuc.edu>
>Proponent: Frank Baker <fbaker@ncsa.uiuc.edu>
>Proponent: John Walker <johnwalker@ozemail.com.au>
>Votetaker: Dave Cornejo <dave@dogwood.com>
>
>RATIONALE: talk.religion.bahai
>
>The newsgroup talk.religion.bahai is proposed to meet the need for an
>open and unmoderated forum for discussion of the Baha'i Faith within
>the structure of the Big 8 hierarchies.
>
>The proponents intend that talk.religion.bahai will complement, rather
>than supplant, the existing moderated group soc.religion.bahai, and
>will provide those without access to alt.religion.bahai the
>opportunity to participate. It is noted that the alt.* hierarchy is
>less well propagated than the talk.* hierarchy; this has meant that
>many people who have voted YES on earlier proposals have been unable
>to join discussions on alt.religion.bahai.
>
>CHARTER: talk.religion.bahai
>
>All topics or ideas relevant to the Baha'i faith -- its history,
>teachings, theology, etc. -- would be appropriate areas for
>discussion.
>
>Talk.religion.bahai fills the need for a fully open and universally
>accessible Internet forum about the Baha'i Faith. Postings may take
>any point of view with regard to the Baha'i Faith. While this allows
>criticism, it also fully opens the door for enquirers to see with
>their own eyes and not through the eyes of their neighbors, asking
>questions and reading replies from anyone who is interested in their
>question.
>
>Readers are asked to observe standard netiquette in their use of this
>newsgroup.
>
>Readers are asked to observe Baha'i standards of conduct and not to
>start or prolong flamewars in the group, but to focus instead on
>articles and threads written in more moderate terms.
>
>The posting of articles not relevant to the Baha'i Faith is
>prohibited. Large ASCII graphics, large binaries, pornography, spam,
>and any postings of a purely personal or commercial nature are
>prohibited. To facilitate viewing in news readers that are not
>HTML-capable, HTML-formatted postings are strongly discouraged.
>
>Cross-posting to irrelevant groups is also discouraged, and readers
>are encouraged to redirect follow-ups to reduce excessive
>cross-posting. Readers may also post articles that have been rejected
>>from soc.religion.bahai, so long as they conform to this charter.
>
>END CHARTER.
>
>
>DISTRIBUTION:
>
>In addition to the groups named in the Newsgroups: header, the CFV
>and the eventual RESULT posts will be mailed to these mailing lists:
>
>Mailing list name: Talisman
>Submission address: talisman@umich.edu
>Request address: jsgreen@umich.edu
>
>Mailing list name: Bahai Studies
>Submission address: bahai-st@johnco.cc.ks.us
>Request address: major@johnco.cc.ks.us
>
>Mailing list name: h-Bahai
>Submission address: h-Bahai@h-net.msu.edu
>Request address: jrcole@umich.edu
>
>Mailing list name: bahai-faith
>Submission address: bahai-faith@egroups.com
>Request address: bahai-faith-subscribe@egroups.com
>
>Pointers directing readers to this CFV will be posted in these groups:
>
>alt.religion
>soc.religion.eastern
>soc.religion.gnosis
>soc.religion.hindu
>soc.religion.paganism
>soc.religion.quaker
>soc.religion.unitarian-univ
>talk.religion.buddhism
>talk.religion.newage
>talk.philosophy.humanism
>talk.philosophy.misc
>uk.religion.interfaith
>uk.religion.misc
>uk.religion.other-faiths
>
>
>
>talk.religion.bahai Final Voter list
>
>Voted YES
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
>---
>garner#looksmart.com.au Rena
>Garner
>johnn#mpx.com.au John
>New
>mclark#tpgi.com.au Martin
>Clark
>house#usq.edu.au Ron
>House
>jmara#cyllene.uwa.edu.au Joel Jani
>Marangella
>ghous#osr.nsw.gov.au Gitie
>House
>billbrwr#compusmart.ab.ca Bill
>Brewer
>sugimotm#cuug.ab.ca Mike
>Sugimoto
>crleech#freenet.carleton.ca Colin R.
>Leech
>shaheedi#nbnet.nb.ca Afzal
>Shaheedi
>trustone#bc.sympatico.ca Akbarally
>Meherally
>zarepour#mathstat.uottawa.ca Mahmoud
>Zarepour.
>narayan123#123india.com Kanva
>Narayan
>tierney#alloymail.com Sal
>Tierney
>hanv#angelfire.com Haq
>Hanvey
>AAli929596#aol.com Abdulnasser
>Ali
>BRaynor781#aol.com
>CRust60001#aol.com
>FG#aol.com Frederick
>Glaysher
>HANI72#aol.com Hani
>Ayyad
>Jimo3#aol.com Jim
>Overmyer
>JoySafari#aol.com Marcella
>Hamilton
>KevinEco#aol.com Kevin
>Haines
>Macho786#aol.com Maaz
>Khan
>Member1700#aol.com Anthony A.
>Lee
>Glaysher
>PParvin#aol.com
>RayHanania#aol.com John
>Doe
>RobertNik#aol.com Robert S
>Nikjoo
>SAMaso#aol.com J. Eddie
>Parent.
>Shaksway#aol.com jim Davis
>(shaksway)
>Smastr#aol.com Sam
>Masters
>amasri#dcn.att.com Ala'a
>Elmasri
>macleod#beloved.com John
>MacLeod
>alexdawson#bigfoot.com Alex
>Dawson
>kindervater#businessweekmail.com "Doc"
>Kindervater
>tom4#canoemail.com Thomas
>Buckland
>sandraa#ccnmail.com
S.
>A.
>habuhant#CH2M.com Haytham
>Abu-Hantash
>markow#chickmail.com Sassy
>Markow
>Laudrigan#collegeclub.com Bud
>Laudrigan
>jgoldberg#condolawyers.com Jeffrey A.
>Goldberg
>kathleenm#cybertrails.com McKibben
>Family
>eridani#databasix.com
>Belinda
>booda#datasync.com Martin H.
>Booda
>guymacon#deltanet.com guymacon#deltanet.com (Guy
>Macon)
>vminai#spd.dsccc.com Viqar
>Minai
>carducci#easypost.com Ladislaus
>Carducci
>UNGARINO#ECardMail.Com Eleanor
>Ungarino
>john_brownston#educastmail.com John
>Brownston
>mercado959#email.com Jennifer
>Mercado
>edwardiii#england.com Edward
>III
>stomljen#enteract.com Steve
>Tomljenovic
>rothbrian#mail.entrepreneurmag.com Brian
>Roth
>alshawa#erols.com Amer
>Alshawa
>shaukat#erols.com Khalid
>Shaukat
>tutstone#eudoramail.com Marlene
>Tutstone
>lopezaz#excite.com Jaime
>Lopez
>umaraadil#excite.com
> Umar Aadil Abdul Rahman McKloskey
>Abdullah
>gkerley#execpc.com Gillam
>Kerley
>david#farrar.com David
>Farrar
>lucie_vendome#fcmail.com Lucie
>Vendome
>wilsonj#flashemail.com Jack
>Wilson
>runchey467#fnmail.com Jeff
>Runchey
>dave#frackit.com Dave
>Ratcliffe
>howie#giantsfan.com Ron
>Howard
>kendrick64#GNWMail.com Steve
>Kendrick
>BHoyt#goplay.com Brian
>Hoyt
>bjv#herbison.com B.J.
>Herbison
>maher#home.com Maher
>Barakat
>c.nunez#hotbot.com Cindy
>Nunez
>burnettcj#hotmail.com Clara
>Frade-Burnett
>shakir_husain#hotmail.com Shakir
>Husain
>rdetweil#boi.hp.com Dick
>Detweiler
>rshane#us.ibm.com Randall
>Shane
>goodlett#ignmail.com Jim
>Goodlett
>takriti#ihorizons.com Mohamad
>Takriti
>hopegartner#iname.com Alice
>Hopegartner
>matthew_cromer#iname.com Matthew
>Cromer
>ramirazodi#iname.com Roohi
>Amirazodi
>muntada#inix.com
>Rashid
>jaed#jaedworks.com Jeanne A. E.
>DeVoto
>kwame#jahoopa.com Kwame
>Unanda
>samorgan#java-man.com
><FONT =
>r_lee#jerusalemail.com Lee
>Rusan
>Aansari#dc.jones.com
>Aamir=20
>o_elkordy#juno.com Omar El
>Kordy
>Christensen#kansascity.com Len
>Christensen
>henry42#mail.kmsp.com Henry
>Wadsworth
>todomanana#latino.com Miguel
>Hernandez
>David.Vessell#lpcorp.com David L.
>Vessell
>sponseller#lycosmail.com David
>Sponseller
>EdythBadalian#MailAndNews.com Edyth
>Badalian
>ogreen#mailcity.com
>Ogreen
>jensen29#mailtag.com Edward
>Jensen
>hoffman#mailwire.com Larry
>Hoffman
>cipher#mindspring.com
>Cipher
>unrein#cig.mot.com W.
>Sanders-Unrein
>billmc#email.msn.com Bill
>McJohn
>chesshazlett#email.msn.com " and be immediately
>followed
>olav#viking.mv.com Olav
>Nieuwejaar
>hyle#my-dejanews.com Sohayl
>Shambashi
>marifok#my-dejanews.com Arif
>Muljadi
>rlittle33#my-dejanews.com Robert
>Little
>sutherland55#netradiomail.com Lisa
>Sutherland
>mirele#newsguy.com Deana M.
>Holmes
>dmarasco#npsnet.com David
>Marasco
>cgruber#us.oracle.com Christian Edward
>Gruber
>jtidwell#animato.pn.com Jenifer P.
>Tidwell
>rlcarr#animato.pn.com Rich
>Carreiro
>ellenberg#popmail.com Jane
>Ellenberg
>E.Adams#pousa.com Eileen
>Adams
>MRaflin#PREMIER-OIL.com Muhammad
>Raflin
>robertwarren#prontomail.com Robert
>Warren
>timken#prontomail.com Ruth
>Timken
>Safir_Ulhaque#raytheon.com Safir
>Ulhaque
>jasonmeller#recyclermail.com Jason
>Meller
>griffin#rednecks.com Bud
>Griffin
>chvatel#rotfl.com David
>Chvatel
>maruyama#sacbeemail.com Victor
>Maruyama
>harold#shinsato.com Harold
>Shinsato
>imran#spsnet.com Imran A.
>Mufti
>pan#syix.com
>Pan
>s.humes#talk21.com Shirley
>Humes
>josephb#tezcat.com Joe
>Bernstein
>charlotte#thedorm.com Charlotte
><BR>
>lininger#theheadoffice.com Lininger
><BR>
>AlvartRiecker#unbounded.com Alvart
>Riecker
>smahmud#uop.com Shahid
>Mahmud
>lingel#email.women.com Sam
>Lingel
>haldi#worldmailer.com Kenneth
>Haldi
>arman_taj#yahoo.com Arman
>Tajarobi
>galaxy001#yahoo.com
>j.s.
>kruposki#yahoo.com Andrew
>Krupowicz
>nimans#yahoo.com Niman
>Shukairy
>padidehjan#yahoo.com
>PadidehjAn
>uhler668#yahoo.com Nancy
>Uhler
>kakhtar#yours.com Khalid
>Akhtar
>vote#kholdan.snafu.de tobias
>erle
>indratmoko.poerwanto#heim6.tu-clausthal.de Indratmoko
>Poerwanto
>cstone#uclink4.berkeley.edu Chris
>Stone
>nmcnelly#bu.edu N.A.F.
>McNelly
>hfung#CSUPomona.Edu Henry
>Fung
>jdeutsch#osf1.gmu.edu Jeffrey
>Deutsch
>jdresner#fas.harvard.edu Jonathan
>Dresner
>jwalbrid#indiana.edu John
>Walbridge
>moslem#MIT.EDU Tarik
>Alatovic
>osborndo#pilot.msu.edu Donald Z
>Osborn
>akhtars#ee.eng.ohio-state.edu Siraj
>Akhtar
>daas#bobcat.ent.ohiou.edu Mutaz
>Daas
>wajahat#bobcat.ent.ohiou.edu Wajahat A
>Khan
>slipstk#olemiss.edu Gordon
>Smith
>kopetsbj#cs.purdue.edu Brett J.
>Kopetsky
>DELETE_Massoud.Ajami#sdsu.edu Massoud
>Ajami
>fran#crhc.uiuc.edu Frances R.
>Baker
>fbaker#ncsa.uiuc.edu Frank
>Baker
>ashaikh#eecs.umich.edu Anees
>Shaikh
>nedsaleh#engin.umich.edu Nedal
>Saleh
>jrcole#umich.edu Juan
>Cole
>nizam#umich.edu Nizam
>Arain
>harinath#cs.umn.edu Raja R
>Harinath
>hougen#cs.umn.edu Dean
>Hougen
>whitl005#tc.umn.edu Jonathan R
>Whitling
>dbowie#sas.upenn.edu David
>Bowie
>aabdalla#pollux.usc.edu Ahmed
>Abd-Allah
>endro#sys3.cs.usu.edu Endro
>Kusumo
>malo#pop3.utoledo.edu Mohammed
>Alo
>ASyamil#uoft02.utoledo.edu John
>Doe
>pjohnson#vsla.edu K. Paul
>Johnson
>aahmed#biology.biosci.wayne.edu Aamina
>Ahmed
>nali#med.wayne.edu Nasima
>Ali
>rufinus#mbe.ece.wisc.edu J
>Rufinus
>Paul.S.Wolf#alum.wpi.edu Paul S.
>Wolf
>vsaarine#cs.Helsinki.FI Vesa
>Saarinen
>bmcewan#healthnet.mrc.gm Bob
>McEwan.
>nmas#otenet.gr Nikos
>Mastrakoulis
>khairol#tm.net.my Khairol Azmi
>Yussof
>rinerin#tm.net.my shahrin shah bin abdul
>rahman
>sl1pbx#ameritech.net Gene
>Truto
>mbkafes#bestweb.net Milissa
>Boyer=20
>davetayl#concentric.net David
>Taylor
>islam662#CSSN.NET Sabeel
>Ahmed</FONT>
>booko#earthlink.net Sharon
>Bouchard
>oreocat#ETINTERNET.NET Gary L.
>King
>ljmoore#freespace.net
>LarryMoore
>sas#frontiernet.net
>Stuart S
>baird#gate.net Baird
>Stafford
>sinanju#gateway.net John
>Noland
>lightspring#jps.net Thomas
>Spellman
>rreini#mediaone.net Roger
>Reini
>peterry#megalink.net
>Peter=20
>bmathieu#micron.net Brent
>Mathieu
>EPierce#ns.net Eric D.
>Pierce
>jonboy#onlink.net Trevor
>Tymchuk
>r.marsou#pmail.net Robert
>Marsou
>RPittman#postmark.net Richard
>Pittman
>trhan#serv.net Teri
>Rhan
>alhadid#SoftHome.net
>Muhammad=20
>m-t-head#surfari.net Lloyd
>Madansky
>ayloush#usa.net Hussam
>Ayloush
>ceo4life#usa.net Harry
>Clinkhammer
>Toadis#usa.net Andres Gutierrez de
>Cos
>tommycarter#usa.net Tommy
>Carter
>emilyjackson#webtv.net Emily
>Jackson
>kaitlin_forrest#zensearch.net Kaitlin
>Forrest
>irina#rempt.xs4all.nl Irina
>Rempt
>forumbahai#es.co.nz Steve
>Marshall
>iio#iio.org Islamic Information
>Office
>irshad#irshad.org Muhammad
>Irshad
>peewee#scc.mi.org Jason
>Wright
>barthelmes#studentcenter.org Sophia
>Barthelmes
>andrew#erlenstar.demon.co.uk Andrew
>Gierth
>neil#nkelley.demon.co.uk neil
>kelley
>Chambers#fetchmail.co.uk Scott
>Chambers
>SamtheMan#postmaster.co.uk
>SamTHEMan
>
>Voted NO
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
>---
>mansouri#one.net.au Shahab
>Mansouri
>dany.steyaert#ping.be Dany
>Steyaert
>carol_bowie#mindlink.bc.ca David
>Bowie
>towfiq#401kforum.com Mark
>Towfiq
>AErfani#aol.com
>Hlpflhanna#aol.com Debbie
>Jenkins
>Mac0000013#aol.com
>Starlet001#aol.com Katherine
>Mayerovitch
>kimdv#best.com Kim
>DeVaughn
>stainles#bga.com Dwight
>Brown
>david.ritscher#bigfoot.com David
>Ritscher
>r.woodlock#bigfoot.com Rachel
>Butson
>lcs#zk3.dec.com Larry
>Smith
>camm#enhanced.com Camm
>Maguire
>caryenochr#enochsvision.com Enoch's Vision, Inc. (Cary Enoch
>R.)
>wcol#erols.com William
>Collins
>tom-hodges#geocities.com Tom
>Hodges
>aromatica45#hotmail.com Victoria
>Williams
>bearone1#hotmail.com Gary
>Rosenbaum
>fazlollahi#hotmail.com Ahmad
>Fazlollahi
>rachel_t#hotmail.com Theresa
>McClendon
>screamingb#hotmail.com Screaming
>Banshee
>swatchking#hotmail.com Fred
>Tague
>jjam#spica.hpl.hp.com Jim
>Jam
>nightbrd#humboldt1.com Douglas
>Myers
>shohre#itis.com Shohreh
>Mansouri
>bruce.limber#juno.com Bruce D.
>Limber
>lpolk01#juno.com Linda L
>Polk
>palmtop#mailtag.com Bonnie
>Blanford
>djull#mindspring.com David
>Jull
>slr1bpz#mindspring.com George
>McCoy
>bfwkendo#netvigator.com Brian
>Walker
>chriseb#nortelnetworks.com Chris
>Ebenezer
>dc#panix.com David W.
>Crawford
>persia#persia.com Robert
>Moldenhauer
>Sandy-Allan#dial.pipex.com Sandy
>Allan
>billh#samoatelco.com Bill
>Hyman
>doug.obrien#the-spa.com Doug
>O'Brien
>manialip#wowmail.com Kate
>Sparks
>francis_uy#yahoo.com
F
>Uy
>Ekkehard.Uthke#gmx.de Ekkehard
>Uthke
>naddy#mips.rhein-neckar.de Christian
>Weisgerber
>cnelson#calpoly.edu Craig
>Nelson
>aull#ll.mit.edu Brian
>Aull
>rick#bcm.tmc.edu Richard H.
>Miller
>kohli#mail.ameritel.net Pat
>Kohli
>helenko#bellsouth.net Helen
>Oney
>cybrmage#dave-world.net Bud
>Polk
>rogerb#foxinternet.net Roger
>Borseth
>ellis#ftel.net Rick
>Ellis
>vpdura#hiwaay.net Vic
>Dura
>Scarecro#ime.net Tim
>Griffin
>jcornell#lightspeed.net John B.
>Cornell
>verbrugh#pionet.net Albert
>Verbrugh
>okoboji#prodigy.net
>Loriann=20
>mehyar22#siol.net Mehyar
>Badii-Azandahi
>scooter#taranaki.ac.nz
>NUFAITH#wcnet.org Dennis
>Rule
>tr8770#bristol.ac.uk Tom
>Richards
>srm103#york.ac.uk Simon
>Mawhinney
>merlin#A470.demon.co.uk Darren Wyn
>Rees
>Graham#fragrant.demon.co.uk Graham
>Sorenson
>leili#Justice.Medford.MA.US Leili
>Towfigh
>
>Abstained
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
>---
>sw.unit02.msn#cwix.com Sue Klein
>Gennario
>chris#kzim.com Christopher Robin
>Zimmerman
>tikal#mailcity.com Samandar
>Roshan-Zamir
>neilc#wallaby.stanford.edu Neil
>Crellin
>schuette#s.imap.itd.umich.edu Wade
>Schuette
>rick#helix.nih.gov Rick
>Troxel
>
>Invalid ballots
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
>---
>afshin.afrashteh#utoronto.ca Afshin
>Afrashteh
> ! Disqualified
>webmaster#muntada.com Abdul-Rashid
>Abdullah
> ! Ineligible address
>ALTAFH#aol.com
> ! No vote statement in message
>MeCraigB#aol.com Craig
>Boyd
> ! No vote statement in message
>LISTSERV#H-NET.MSU.EDU L-Soft list server at H-Net - Humanities On-Line
>(1.8c)
> ! No vote statement in message
>lbhollin#ust.hk Richard
>Hollinger
> ! No vote statement in message
>smeanver#tm.net.my
>smeanver
> ! No vote statement in message
>mezmer#globalnet.co.uk
>Bob/Zannie
> ! No vote statement in message
>
>To restore the email addresses above, pipe the ack list through the
>following command:
>
> sed -e 's/#/@/g'
>
>--
>Voting question & problems: Dave Cornejo <dave@dogwood.com>
>Voting address: vote@dogwood.com
>
>
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Monday, January 18, 1999 6:25 PM
To: bahai-faith@bcca.org
Subject: RESULT: talk.religion.bahai passes 218:63
From: Dave Cornejo <dave@dogwood.com>
Subject: RESULT: talk.religion.bahai passes 218:63
Date: Sunday, January 10, 1999 10:41 PM
RESULT
unmoderated group talk.religion.bahai passes 218:63
There were 218 YES votes and 63 NO votes, for a total of 281 valid
votes. There were 6 abstentions and 8 invalid ballots.
For a group to pass, YES votes must be at least 2/3 of all valid
(YES and NO) votes. There must also be at least 100 more YES votes
than NO votes.
A five day discussion period follows this announcement. If no
serious allegations of voting irregularities are raised, the
moderator of news.announce.newgroups will create the group shortly
thereafter.
Newsgroups line:
talk.religion.bahai Discussion of the Baha'i Faith.
Voting closed at 23:59:59 UTC, 25 Dec 1998.
This vote was conducted by a neutral third party. Questions
about the proposed group should be directed to the proponent.
Proponent: FG <FG@hotmail.com>
Proponent: Ron House <house@usq.edu.au>
Proponent: Fran Baker <fran@crhc.uiuc.edu>
Proponent: Frank Baker <fbaker@ncsa.uiuc.edu>
Proponent: John Walker <johnwalker@ozemail.com.au>
Votetaker: Dave Cornejo <dave@dogwood.com>
RATIONALE: talk.religion.bahai
The newsgroup talk.religion.bahai is proposed to meet the need for an
open and unmoderated forum for discussion of the Baha'i Faith within
the structure of the Big 8 hierarchies.
The proponents intend that talk.religion.bahai will complement, rather
than supplant, the existing moderated group soc.religion.bahai, and
will provide those without access to alt.religion.bahai the
opportunity to participate. It is noted that the alt.* hierarchy is
less well propagated than the talk.* hierarchy; this has meant that
many people who have voted YES on earlier proposals have been unable
to join discussions on alt.religion.bahai.
CHARTER: talk.religion.bahai
All topics or ideas relevant to the Baha'i faith -- its history,
teachings, theology, etc. -- would be appropriate areas for
discussion.
Talk.religion.bahai fills the need for a fully open and universally
accessible Internet forum about the Baha'i Faith. Postings may take
any point of view with regard to the Baha'i Faith. While this allows
criticism, it also fully opens the door for enquirers to see with
their own eyes and not through the eyes of their neighbors, asking
questions and reading replies from anyone who is interested in their
question.
Readers are asked to observe standard netiquette in their use of this
newsgroup.
Readers are asked to observe Baha'i standards of conduct and not to
start or prolong flamewars in the group, but to focus instead on
articles and threads written in more moderate terms.
The posting of articles not relevant to the Baha'i Faith is
prohibited. Large ASCII graphics, large binaries, pornography, spam,
and any postings of a purely personal or commercial nature are
prohibited. To facilitate viewing in news readers that are not
HTML-capable, HTML-formatted postings are strongly discouraged.
Cross-posting to irrelevant groups is also discouraged, and readers
are encouraged to redirect follow-ups to reduce excessive
cross-posting. Readers may also post articles that have been rejected
>from soc.religion.bahai, so long as they conform to this charter.
END CHARTER.
DISTRIBUTION:
In addition to the groups named in the Newsgroups: header, the CFV
and the eventual RESULT posts will be mailed to these mailing lists:
Mailing list name: Talisman
Submission address: talisman@umich.edu
Request address: jsgreen@umich.edu
Mailing list name: Bahai Studies
Submission address: bahai-st@johnco.cc.ks.us
Request address: major@johnco.cc.ks.us
Mailing list name: h-Bahai
Submission address: h-Bahai@h-net.msu.edu
Request address: jrcole@umich.edu
Mailing list name: bahai-faith
Submission address: bahai-faith@egroups.com
Request address: bahai-faith-subscribe@egroups.com
Pointers directing readers to this CFV will be posted in these groups:
alt.religion
soc.religion.eastern
soc.religion.gnosis
soc.religion.hindu
soc.religion.paganism
soc.religion.quaker
soc.religion.unitarian-univ
talk.religion.buddhism
talk.religion.newage
talk.philosophy.humanism
talk.philosophy.misc
uk.religion.interfaith
uk.religion.misc
uk.religion.other-faiths
talk.religion.bahai Final Voter list
Voted YES
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
garner#looksmart.com.au Rena
Garner
johnn#mpx.com.au John
New
mclark#tpgi.com.au Martin
Clark
house#usq.edu.au Ron
House
jmara#cyllene.uwa.edu.au Joel Jani
Marangella
ghous#osr.nsw.gov.au Gitie
House
billbrwr#compusmart.ab.ca Bill
Brewer
sugimotm#cuug.ab.ca Mike
Sugimoto
crleech#freenet.carleton.ca Colin R.
Leech
shaheedi#nbnet.nb.ca Afzal
Shaheedi
trustone#bc.sympatico.ca Akbarally
Meherally
zarepour#mathstat.uottawa.ca Mahmoud
Zarepour.
narayan123#123india.com Kanva
Narayan
tierney#alloymail.com Sal
Tierney
hanv#angelfire.com Haq
Hanvey
AAli929596#aol.com Abdulnasser
Ali
BRaynor781#aol.com
CRust60001#aol.com
FG#aol.com FG
HANI72#aol.com Hani
Ayyad
Jimo3#aol.com Jim
Overmyer
JoySafari#aol.com Marcella
Hamilton
KevinEco#aol.com Kevin
Haines
Macho786#aol.com Maaz
Khan
Member1700#aol.com Anthony A.
Lee
PParvin#aol.com
RayHanania#aol.com John
Doe
RobertNik#aol.com Robert S
Nikjoo
SAMaso#aol.com J. Eddie
Parent.
Shaksway#aol.com jim Davis
(shaksway)
Smastr#aol.com Sam
Masters
amasri#dcn.att.com Ala'a
Elmasri
macleod#beloved.com John
MacLeod
alexdawson#bigfoot.com Alex
Dawson
kindervater#businessweekmail.com "Doc"
Kindervater
tom4#canoemail.com Thomas
Buckland
sandraa#ccnmail.com S.
A.
habuhant#CH2M.com Haytham
Abu-Hantash
markow#chickmail.com Sassy
Markow
Laudrigan#collegeclub.com Bud
Laudrigan
jgoldberg#condolawyers.com Jeffrey A.
Goldberg
kathleenm#cybertrails.com McKibben
Family
eridani#databasix.com
Belinda
booda#datasync.com Martin H.
Booda
guymacon#deltanet.com guymacon#deltanet.com (Guy
Macon)
vminai#spd.dsccc.com Viqar
Minai
carducci#easypost.com Ladislaus
Carducci
UNGARINO#ECardMail.Com Eleanor
Ungarino
john_brownston#educastmail.com John
Brownston
mercado959#email.com Jennifer
Mercado
edwardiii#england.com Edward
III
stomljen#enteract.com Steve
Tomljenovic
rothbrian#mail.entrepreneurmag.com Brian
Roth
alshawa#erols.com Amer
Alshawa
shaukat#erols.com Khalid
Shaukat
tutstone#eudoramail.com Marlene
Tutstone
lopezaz#excite.com Jaime
Lopez
umaraadil#excite.com
Umar Aadil Abdul Rahman McKloskey
Abdullah
gkerley#execpc.com Gillam
Kerley
david#farrar.com David
Farrar
lucie_vendome#fcmail.com Lucie
Vendome
wilsonj#flashemail.com Jack
Wilson
runchey467#fnmail.com Jeff
Runchey
dave#frackit.com Dave
Ratcliffe
howie#giantsfan.com Ron
Howard
kendrick64#GNWMail.com Steve
Kendrick
BHoyt#goplay.com Brian
Hoyt
bjv#herbison.com B.J.
Herbison
maher#home.com Maher Bara
kat
c.nunez#hotbot.com Cindy
Nunez
burnettcj#hotmail.com Clara
Frade-Burnett
shakir_husain#hotmail.com Shakir
Husain
rdetweil#boi.hp.com Dick
Detweiler
rshane#us.ibm.com Randall
Shane
goodlett#ignmail.com Jim
Goodlett
takriti#ihorizons.com Mohamad
Takriti
hopegartner#iname.com Alice
Hopegartner
matthew_cromer#iname.com Matthew
Cromer
ramirazodi#iname.com Roohi
Amirazodi
muntada#inix.com
Rashid
jaed#jaedworks.com Jeanne A. E.
DeVoto
kwame#jahoopa.com Kwame
Unanda
samorgan#java-man.com
<FONT =
r_lee#jerusalemail.com Lee
Rusan
Aansari#dc.jones.com
Aamir=20
o_elkordy#juno.com Omar El
Kordy
Christensen#kansascity.com Len
Christensen
henry42#mail.kmsp.com Henry
Wadsworth
todomanana#latino.com Miguel
Hernandez
David.Vessell#lpcorp.com David L.
Vessell
sponseller#lycosmail.com David
Sponseller
EdythBadalian#MailAndNews.com Edyth
Badalian
ogreen#mailcity.com
Ogreen
jensen29#mailtag.com Edward
Jensen
hoffman#mailwire.com Larry
Hoffman
cipher#mindspring.com
Cipher
unrein#cig.mot.com W.
Sanders-Unrein
billmc#email.msn.com Bill
McJohn
chesshazlett#email.msn.com " and be immediately
followed
olav#viking.mv.com Olav
Nieuwejaar
hyle#my-dejanews.com Sohayl
Shambashi
marifok#my-dejanews.com Arif
Muljadi
rlittle33#my-dejanews.com Robert
Little
sutherland55#netradiomail.com Lisa
Sutherland
mirele#newsguy.com Deana M.
Holmes
dmarasco#npsnet.com David
Marasco
cgruber#us.oracle.com Christian Edward
Gruber
jtidwell#animato.pn.com Jenifer P.
Tidwell
rlcarr#animato.pn.com Rich
Carreiro
ellenberg#popmail.com Jane
Ellenberg
E.Adams#pousa.com Eileen
Adams
MRaflin#PREMIER-OIL.com Muhammad
Raflin
robertwarren#prontomail.com Robert
Warren
timken#prontomail.com Ruth
Timken
Safir_Ulhaque#raytheon.com Safir
Ulhaque
jasonmeller#recyclermail.com Jason
Meller
griffin#rednecks.com Bud
Griffin
chvatel#rotfl.com David
Chvatel
maruyama#sacbeemail.com Victor
Maruyama
harold#shinsato.com Harold
Shinsato
imran#spsnet.com Imran A.
Mufti
pan#syix.com
Pan
s.humes#talk21.com Shirley
Humes
josephb#tezcat.com Joe
Bernstein
charlotte#thedorm.com Charlotte
<BR>
lininger#theheadoffice.com Lininger
<BR>
AlvartRiecker#unbounded.com Alvart
Riecker
smahmud#uop.com Shahid
Mahmud
lingel#email.women.com Sam
Lingel
haldi#worldmailer.com Kenneth
Haldi
arman_taj#yahoo.com Arman
Tajarobi
galaxy001#yahoo.com
j.s.
kruposki#yahoo.com Andrew
Krupowicz
nimans#yahoo.com Niman
Shukairy
padidehjan#yahoo.com
PadidehjAn
uhler668#yahoo.com Nancy
Uhler
kakhtar#yours.com Khalid
Akhtar
vote#kholdan.snafu.de tobias
erle
indratmoko.poerwanto#heim6.tu-clausthal.de Indratmoko
Poerwanto
cstone#uclink4.berkeley.edu Chris
Stone
nmcnelly#bu.edu N.A.F.
McNelly
hfung#CSUPomona.Edu Henry
Fung
jdeutsch#osf1.gmu.edu Jeffrey
Deutsch
jdresner#fas.harvard.edu Jonathan
Dresner
jwalbrid#indiana.edu John
Walbridge
moslem#MIT.EDU Tarik
Alatovic
osborndo#pilot.msu.edu Donald Z
Osborn
akhtars#ee.eng.ohio-state.edu Siraj
Akhtar
daas#bobcat.ent.ohiou.edu Mutaz
Daas
wajahat#bobcat.ent.ohiou.edu Wajahat A
Khan
slipstk#olemiss.edu Gordon
Smith
kopetsbj#cs.purdue.edu Brett J.
Kopetsky
DELETE_Massoud.Ajami#sdsu.edu Massoud
Ajami
fran#crhc.uiuc.edu Frances R.
Baker
fbaker#ncsa.uiuc.edu Frank
Baker
ashaikh#eecs.umich.edu Anees
Shaikh
nedsaleh#engin.umich.edu Nedal
Saleh
jrcole#umich.edu Juan
Cole
nizam#umich.edu Nizam
Arain
harinath#cs.umn.edu Raja R
Harinath
hougen#cs.umn.edu Dean
Hougen
whitl005#tc.umn.edu Jonathan R
Whitling
dbowie#sas.upenn.edu David
Bowie
aabdalla#pollux.usc.edu Ahmed
Abd-Allah
endro#sys3.cs.usu.edu Endro
Kusumo
malo#pop3.utoledo.edu Mohammed
Alo
ASyamil#uoft02.utoledo.edu John
Doe
pjohnson#vsla.edu K. Paul
Johnson
aahmed#biology.biosci.wayne.edu Aamina
Ahmed
nali#med.wayne.edu Nasima
Ali
rufinus#mbe.ece.wisc.edu J
Rufinus
Paul.S.Wolf#alum.wpi.edu Paul S.
Wolf
vsaarine#cs.Helsinki.FI Vesa
Saarinen
bmcewan#healthnet.mrc.gm Bob
McEwan.
nmas#otenet.gr Nikos
Mastrakoulis
khairol#tm.net.my Khairol Azmi
Yussof
rinerin#tm.net.my shahrin shah bin abdul
rahman
sl1pbx#ameritech.net Gene
Truto
mbkafes#bestweb.net Milissa
Boyer=20
davetayl#concentric.net David
Taylor
islam662#CSSN.NET Sabeel
Ahmed</FONT>
booko#earthlink.net Sharon
Bouchard
oreocat#ETINTERNET.NET Gary L.
King
ljmoore#freespace.net
LarryMoore
sas#frontiernet.net
Stuart S
baird#gate.net Baird
Stafford
sinanju#gateway.net John
Noland
lightspring#jps.net Thomas
Spellman
rreini#mediaone.net Roger
Reini
peterry#megalink.net
Peter=20
bmathieu#micron.net Brent
Mathieu
EPierce#ns.net Eric D.
Pierce
jonboy#onlink.net Trevor
Tymchuk
r.marsou#pmail.net Robert
Marsou
RPittman#postmark.net Richard
Pittman
trhan#serv.net Teri
Rhan
alhadid#SoftHome.net
Muhammad=20
m-t-head#surfari.net Lloyd
Madansky
ayloush#usa.net Hussam
Ayloush
ceo4life#usa.net Harry
Clinkhammer
Toadis#usa.net Andres Gutierrez de
Cos
tommycarter#usa.net Tommy
Carter
emilyjackson#webtv.net Emily
Jackson
kaitlin_forrest#zensearch.net Kaitlin
Forrest
irina#rempt.xs4all.nl Irina
Rempt
forumbahai#es.co.nz Steve
Marshall
iio#iio.org Islamic Information
Office
irshad#irshad.org Muhammad
Irshad
peewee#scc.mi.org Jason
Wright
barthelmes#studentcenter.org Sophia
Barthelmes
andrew#erlenstar.demon.co.uk Andrew
Gierth
neil#nkelley.demon.co.uk neil
kelley
Chambers#fetchmail.co.uk Scott
Chambers
SamtheMan#postmaster.co.uk
SamTHEMan
Voted NO
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
mansouri#one.net.au Shahab
Mansouri
dany.steyaert#ping.be Dany
Steyaert
carol_bowie#mindlink.bc.ca David
Bowie
towfiq#401kforum.com Mark
Towfiq
AErfani#aol.com
Hlpflhanna#aol.com Debbie
Jenkins
Mac0000013#aol.com
Starlet001#aol.com Katherine
Mayerovitch
kimdv#best.com Kim
DeVaughn
stainles#bga.com Dwight
Brown
david.ritscher#bigfoot.com David
Ritscher
r.woodlock#bigfoot.com Rachel
Butson
lcs#zk3.dec.com Larry
Smith
camm#enhanced.com Camm
Maguire
caryenochr#enochsvision.com Enoch's Vision, Inc. (Cary Enoch
R.)
wcol#erols.com William
Collins
tom-hodges#geocities.com Tom
Hodges
aromatica45#hotmail.com Victoria
Williams
bearone1#hotmail.com Gary
Rosenbaum
fazlollahi#hotmail.com Ahmad
Fazlollahi
rachel_t#hotmail.com Theresa
McClendon
screamingb#hotmail.com Screaming
Banshee
swatchking#hotmail.com Fred
Tague
jjam#spica.hpl.hp.com Jim
Jam
nightbrd#humboldt1.com Douglas
Myers
shohre#itis.com Shohreh
Mansouri
bruce.limber#juno.com Bruce D.
Limber
lpolk01#juno.com Linda L
Polk
palmtop#mailtag.com Bonnie
Blanford
djull#mindspring.com David
Jull
slr1bpz#mindspring.com George
McCoy
bfwkendo#netvigator.com Brian
Walker
chriseb#nortelnetworks.com Chris
Ebenezer
dc#panix.com David W.
Crawford
persia#persia.com Robert
Moldenhauer
Sandy-Allan#dial.pipex.com Sandy
Allan
billh#samoatelco.com Bill
Hyman
doug.obrien#the-spa.com Doug
O'Brien
manialip#wowmail.com Kate
Sparks
francis_uy#yahoo.com F
Uy
Ekkehard.Uthke#gmx.de Ekkehard
Uthke
naddy#mips.rhein-neckar.de Christian
Weisgerber
cnelson#calpoly.edu Craig
Nelson
aull#ll.mit.edu Brian
Aull
rick#bcm.tmc.edu Richard H.
Miller
kohli#mail.ameritel.net Pat
Kohli
helenko#bellsouth.net Helen
Oney
cybrmage#dave-world.net Bud
Polk
rogerb#foxinternet.net Roger
Borseth
ellis#ftel.net Rick
Ellis
vpdura#hiwaay.net Vic
Dura
Scarecro#ime.net Tim
Griffin
jcornell#lightspeed.net John B.
Cornell
verbrugh#pionet.net Albert
Verbrugh
okoboji#prodigy.net
Loriann=20
mehyar22#siol.net Mehyar
Badii-Azandahi
scooter#taranaki.ac.nz
NUFAITH#wcnet.org Dennis
Rule
tr8770#bristol.ac.uk Tom
Richards
srm103#york.ac.uk Simon
Mawhinney
merlin#A470.demon.co.uk Darren Wyn
Rees
Graham#fragrant.demon.co.uk Graham
Sorenson
leili#Justice.Medford.MA.US Leili
Towfigh
Abstained
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
sw.unit02.msn#cwix.com Sue Klein
Gennario
chris#kzim.com Christopher Robin
Zimmerman
tikal#mailcity.com Samandar
Roshan-Zamir
neilc#wallaby.stanford.edu Neil
Crellin
schuette#s.imap.itd.umich.edu Wade
Schuette
rick#helix.nih.gov Rick
Troxel
Invalid ballots
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
afshin.afrashteh#utoronto.ca Afshin
Afrashteh
! Disqualified
webmaster#muntada.com Abdul-Rashid
Abdullah
! Ineligible address
ALTAFH#aol.com
! No vote statement in message
MeCraigB#aol.com Craig
Boyd
! No vote statement in message
LISTSERV#H-NET.MSU.EDU L-Soft list server at H-Net - Humanities On-Line
(1.8c)
! No vote statement in message
lbhollin#ust.hk Richard
Hollinger
! No vote statement in message
smeanver#tm.net.my
smeanver
! No vote statement in message
mezmer#globalnet.co.uk
Bob/Zannie
! No vote statement in message
To restore the email addresses above, pipe the ack list through the
following command:
sed -e 's/#/@/g'
--
Voting question & problems: Dave Cornejo <dave@dogwood.com>
Voting address: vote@dogwood.com
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, January 19, 1999 9:45 AM
To: Fran Baker; Frank Baker; Ron House
Subject: Fw: RESULT: talk.religion.bahai passes 218: 63
The latest ignorance from Hyman......
-----Original Message-----
From: Island Business Center (Bill Hyman) <billh@samoatelco.com>
To: FG@hotmail.com <FG@hotmail.com>
Cc: srb <srb-mods@bcca.org>
Date: Sunday, January 17, 1999 5:28 PM
Subject: FW: RESULT: talk.religion.bahai passes 218: 63
>Dear Mr. Glaysher:
>
>Congratulations. Persistence pays off.
>
>I am aware of the result of the TRB vote as one of the moderating team
>forwarded it to the moderators from another forum, for their information.
>The reason that the result has not been posted to soc.religion.bahai is
that
>it has not yet been received as a submission for posting. The address
>bahai-faith@egroups.com is unknown to me.
>
>If you would care to submit it I will post it. The address for submissions
>is:
>bahai-faith@bcca.org. I suggest that you do not include the charter as this
>was already posted with the CFV and, as Baha'is believe in secret ballots,
I
>will take posting the names of individual voters under advisement with the
>other moderators.
>
>Our present policy is that only names and return addresses can be present
in
>submitters' signatures.
>
>Bill Hyman
>co-moderator
>soc.religion.bahai
>----------
>From: "FG" <FG@hotmail.com>
>To: "srb" <srb-mods@bcca.org>
>Subject: RESULT: talk.religion.bahai passes 218: 63
>Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 15:56:07 -0500
>
>Dear Mr. Hyman:
>
>Since I have not seen the RESULT appear on soc.religion.bahai,
>I am taking the advice of a news.groupie and sending you myself
>a copy of it. You may verify its authenticity on news.groups or
>news.announce.newgroups.
>
>I'm sure people on soc.religion.bahai, having read the RFD and
>the CFV, would like to hear of the RESULT.
>
>FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
>https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
>alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
>
>
>
>--------------
> RESULT
> unmoderated group talk.religion.bahai passes 218:63
>
>There were 218 YES votes and 63 NO votes, for a total of 281 valid
>votes. There were 6 abstentions and 8 invalid ballots.
>
>For a group to pass, YES votes must be at least 2/3 of all valid
>(YES and NO) votes. There must also be at least 100 more YES votes
>than NO votes.
>
>A five day discussion period follows this announcement. If no
>serious allegations of voting irregularities are raised, the
>moderator of news.announce.newgroups will create the group shortly
>thereafter.
>
>Newsgroups line:
>talk.religion.bahai Discussion of the Baha'i Faith.
>
>Voting closed at 23:59:59 UTC, 25 Dec 1998.
>
>This vote was conducted by a neutral third party. Questions
>about the proposed group should be directed to the proponent.
>
>Proponent: FG <FG@hotmail.com>
>Proponent: Ron House <house@usq.edu.au>
>Proponent: Fran Baker <fran@crhc.uiuc.edu>
>Proponent: Frank Baker <fbaker@ncsa.uiuc.edu>
>Proponent: John Walker <johnwalker@ozemail.com.au>
>Votetaker: Dave Cornejo <dave@dogwood.com>
>
>RATIONALE: talk.religion.bahai
>
>The newsgroup talk.religion.bahai is proposed to meet the need for an
>open and unmoderated forum for discussion of the Baha'i Faith within
>the structure of the Big 8 hierarchies.
>
>The proponents intend that talk.religion.bahai will complement, rather
>than supplant, the existing moderated group soc.religion.bahai, and
>will provide those without access to alt.religion.bahai the
>opportunity to participate. It is noted that the alt.* hierarchy is
>less well propagated than the talk.* hierarchy; this has meant that
>many people who have voted YES on earlier proposals have been unable
>to join discussions on alt.religion.bahai.
>
>CHARTER: talk.religion.bahai
>
>All topics or ideas relevant to the Baha'i faith -- its history,
>teachings, theology, etc. -- would be appropriate areas for
>discussion.
>
>Talk.religion.bahai fills the need for a fully open and universally
>accessible Internet forum about the Baha'i Faith. Postings may take
>any point of view with regard to the Baha'i Faith. While this allows
>criticism, it also fully opens the door for enquirers to see with
>their own eyes and not through the eyes of their neighbors, asking
>questions and reading replies from anyone who is interested in their
>question.
>
>Readers are asked to observe standard netiquette in their use of this
>newsgroup.
>
>Readers are asked to observe Baha'i standards of conduct and not to
>start or prolong flamewars in the group, but to focus instead on
>articles and threads written in more moderate terms.
>
>The posting of articles not relevant to the Baha'i Faith is
>prohibited. Large ASCII graphics, large binaries, pornography, spam,
>and any postings of a purely personal or commercial nature are
>prohibited. To facilitate viewing in news readers that are not
>HTML-capable, HTML-formatted postings are strongly discouraged.
>
>Cross-posting to irrelevant groups is also discouraged, and readers
>are encouraged to redirect follow-ups to reduce excessive
>cross-posting. Readers may also post articles that have been rejected
>>from soc.religion.bahai, so long as they conform to this charter.
>
>END CHARTER.
>
>
>DISTRIBUTION:
>
>In addition to the groups named in the Newsgroups: header, the CFV
>and the eventual RESULT posts will be mailed to these mailing lists:
>
>Mailing list name: Talisman
>Submission address: talisman@umich.edu
>Request address: jsgreen@umich.edu
>
>Mailing list name: Bahai Studies
>Submission address: bahai-st@johnco.cc.ks.us
>Request address: major@johnco.cc.ks.us
>
>Mailing list name: h-Bahai
>Submission address: h-Bahai@h-net.msu.edu
>Request address: jrcole@umich.edu
>
>Mailing list name: bahai-faith
>Submission address: bahai-faith@egroups.com
>Request address: bahai-faith-subscribe@egroups.com
>
>Pointers directing readers to this CFV will be posted in these groups:
>
>alt.religion
>soc.religion.eastern
>soc.religion.gnosis
>soc.religion.hindu
>soc.religion.paganism
>soc.religion.quaker
>soc.religion.unitarian-univ
>talk.religion.buddhism
>talk.religion.newage
>talk.philosophy.humanism
>talk.philosophy.misc
>uk.religion.interfaith
>uk.religion.misc
>uk.religion.other-faiths
>
>
>
>talk.religion.bahai Final Voter list
>
>Voted YES
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
>---
>garner#looksmart.com.au Rena
>Garner
>johnn#mpx.com.au John
>New
>mclark#tpgi.com.au Martin
>Clark
>house#usq.edu.au Ron
>House
>jmara#cyllene.uwa.edu.au Joel Jani
>Marangella
>ghous#osr.nsw.gov.au Gitie
>House
>billbrwr#compusmart.ab.ca Bill
>Brewer
>sugimotm#cuug.ab.ca Mike
>Sugimoto
>crleech#freenet.carleton.ca Colin R.
>Leech
>shaheedi#nbnet.nb.ca Afzal
>Shaheedi
>trustone#bc.sympatico.ca Akbarally
>Meherally
>zarepour#mathstat.uottawa.ca Mahmoud
>Zarepour.
>narayan123#123india.com Kanva
>Narayan
>tierney#alloymail.com Sal
>Tierney
>hanv#angelfire.com Haq
>Hanvey
>AAli929596#aol.com Abdulnasser
>Ali
>BRaynor781#aol.com
>CRust60001#aol.com
>FG#aol.com Frederick
>Glaysher
>HANI72#aol.com Hani
>Ayyad
>Jimo3#aol.com Jim
>Overmyer
>JoySafari#aol.com Marcella
>Hamilton
>KevinEco#aol.com Kevin
>Haines
>Macho786#aol.com Maaz
>Khan
>Member1700#aol.com Anthony A.
>Lee
>PParvin#aol.com
>RayHanania#aol.com John
>Doe
>RobertNik#aol.com Robert S
>Nikjoo
>SAMaso#aol.com J. Eddie
>Parent.
>Shaksway#aol.com jim Davis
>(shaksway)
>Smastr#aol.com Sam
>Masters
>amasri#dcn.att.com Ala'a
>Elmasri
>macleod#beloved.com John
>MacLeod
>alexdawson#bigfoot.com Alex
>Dawson
>kindervater#businessweekmail.com "Doc"
>Kindervater
>tom4#canoemail.com Thomas
>Buckland
>sandraa#ccnmail.com
S.
>A.
>habuhant#CH2M.com Haytham
>Abu-Hantash
>markow#chickmail.com Sassy
>Markow
>Laudrigan#collegeclub.com Bud
>Laudrigan
>jgoldberg#condolawyers.com Jeffrey A.
>Goldberg
>kathleenm#cybertrails.com McKibben
>Family
>eridani#databasix.com
>Belinda
>booda#datasync.com Martin H.
>Booda
>guymacon#deltanet.com guymacon#deltanet.com (Guy
>Macon)
>vminai#spd.dsccc.com Viqar
>Minai
>carducci#easypost.com Ladislaus
>Carducci
>UNGARINO#ECardMail.Com Eleanor
>Ungarino
>john_brownston#educastmail.com John
>Brownston
>mercado959#email.com Jennifer
>Mercado
>edwardiii#england.com Edward
>III
>stomljen#enteract.com Steve
>Tomljenovic
>rothbrian#mail.entrepreneurmag.com Brian
>Roth
>alshawa#erols.com Amer
>Alshawa
>shaukat#erols.com Khalid
>Shaukat
>tutstone#eudoramail.com Marlene
>Tutstone
>lopezaz#excite.com Jaime
>Lopez
>umaraadil#excite.com
> Umar Aadil Abdul Rahman McKloskey
>Abdullah
>gkerley#execpc.com Gillam
>Kerley
>david#farrar.com David
>Farrar
>lucie_vendome#fcmail.com Lucie
>Vendome
>wilsonj#flashemail.com Jack
>Wilson
>runchey467#fnmail.com Jeff
>Runchey
>dave#frackit.com Dave
>Ratcliffe
>howie#giantsfan.com Ron
>Howard
>kendrick64#GNWMail.com Steve
>Kendrick
>BHoyt#goplay.com Brian
>Hoyt
>bjv#herbison.com B.J.
>Herbison
>maher#home.com Maher
>Barakat
>c.nunez#hotbot.com Cindy
>Nunez
>burnettcj#hotmail.com Clara
>Frade-Burnett
>shakir_husain#hotmail.com Shakir
>Husain
>rdetweil#boi.hp.com Dick
>Detweiler
>rshane#us.ibm.com Randall
>Shane
>goodlett#ignmail.com Jim
>Goodlett
>takriti#ihorizons.com Mohamad
>Takriti
>hopegartner#iname.com Alice
>Hopegartner
>matthew_cromer#iname.com Matthew
>Cromer
>ramirazodi#iname.com Roohi
>Amirazodi
>muntada#inix.com
>Rashid
>jaed#jaedworks.com Jeanne A. E.
>DeVoto
>kwame#jahoopa.com Kwame
>Unanda
>samorgan#java-man.com
><FONT =
>r_lee#jerusalemail.com Lee
>Rusan
>Aansari#dc.jones.com
>Aamir=20
>o_elkordy#juno.com Omar El
>Kordy
>Christensen#kansascity.com Len
>Christensen
>henry42#mail.kmsp.com Henry
>Wadsworth
>todomanana#latino.com Miguel
>Hernandez
>David.Vessell#lpcorp.com David L.
>Vessell
>sponseller#lycosmail.com David
>Sponseller
>EdythBadalian#MailAndNews.com Edyth
>Badalian
>ogreen#mailcity.com
>Ogreen
>jensen29#mailtag.com Edward
>Jensen
>hoffman#mailwire.com Larry
>Hoffman
>cipher#mindspring.com
>Cipher
>unrein#cig.mot.com W.
>Sanders-Unrein
>billmc#email.msn.com Bill
>McJohn
>chesshazlett#email.msn.com " and be immediately
>followed
>olav#viking.mv.com Olav
>Nieuwejaar
>hyle#my-dejanews.com Sohayl
>Shambashi
>marifok#my-dejanews.com Arif
>Muljadi
>rlittle33#my-dejanews.com Robert
>Little
>sutherland55#netradiomail.com Lisa
>Sutherland
>mirele#newsguy.com Deana M.
>Holmes
>dmarasco#npsnet.com David
>Marasco
>cgruber#us.oracle.com Christian Edward
>Gruber
>jtidwell#animato.pn.com Jenifer P.
>Tidwell
>rlcarr#animato.pn.com Rich
>Carreiro
>ellenberg#popmail.com Jane
>Ellenberg
>E.Adams#pousa.com Eileen
>Adams
>MRaflin#PREMIER-OIL.com Muhammad
>Raflin
>robertwarren#prontomail.com Robert
>Warren
>timken#prontomail.com Ruth
>Timken
>Safir_Ulhaque#raytheon.com Safir
>Ulhaque
>jasonmeller#recyclermail.com Jason
>Meller
>griffin#rednecks.com Bud
>Griffin
>chvatel#rotfl.com David
>Chvatel
>maruyama#sacbeemail.com Victor
>Maruyama
>harold#shinsato.com Harold
>Shinsato
>imran#spsnet.com Imran A.
>Mufti
>pan#syix.com
>Pan
>s.humes#talk21.com Shirley
>Humes
>josephb#tezcat.com Joe
>Bernstein
>charlotte#thedorm.com Charlotte
><BR>
>lininger#theheadoffice.com Lininger
><BR>
>AlvartRiecker#unbounded.com Alvart
>Riecker
>smahmud#uop.com Shahid
>Mahmud
>lingel#email.women.com Sam
>Lingel
>haldi#worldmailer.com Kenneth
>Haldi
>arman_taj#yahoo.com Arman
>Tajarobi
>galaxy001#yahoo.com
>j.s.
>kruposki#yahoo.com Andrew
>Krupowicz
>nimans#yahoo.com Niman
>Shukairy
>padidehjan#yahoo.com
>PadidehjAn
>uhler668#yahoo.com Nancy
>Uhler
>kakhtar#yours.com Khalid
>Akhtar
>vote#kholdan.snafu.de tobias
>erle
>indratmoko.poerwanto#heim6.tu-clausthal.de Indratmoko
>Poerwanto
>cstone#uclink4.berkeley.edu Chris
>Stone
>nmcnelly#bu.edu N.A.F.
>McNelly
>hfung#CSUPomona.Edu Henry
>Fung
>jdeutsch#osf1.gmu.edu Jeffrey
>Deutsch
>jdresner#fas.harvard.edu Jonathan
>Dresner
>jwalbrid#indiana.edu John
>Walbridge
>moslem#MIT.EDU Tarik
>Alatovic
>osborndo#pilot.msu.edu Donald Z
>Osborn
>akhtars#ee.eng.ohio-state.edu Siraj
>Akhtar
>daas#bobcat.ent.ohiou.edu Mutaz
>Daas
>wajahat#bobcat.ent.ohiou.edu Wajahat A
>Khan
>slipstk#olemiss.edu Gordon
>Smith
>kopetsbj#cs.purdue.edu Brett J.
>Kopetsky
>DELETE_Massoud.Ajami#sdsu.edu Massoud
>Ajami
>fran#crhc.uiuc.edu Frances R.
>Baker
>fbaker#ncsa.uiuc.edu Frank
>Baker
>ashaikh#eecs.umich.edu Anees
>Shaikh
>nedsaleh#engin.umich.edu Nedal
>Saleh
>jrcole#umich.edu Juan
>Cole
>nizam#umich.edu Nizam
>Arain
>harinath#cs.umn.edu Raja R
>Harinath
>hougen#cs.umn.edu Dean
>Hougen
>whitl005#tc.umn.edu Jonathan R
>Whitling
>dbowie#sas.upenn.edu David
>Bowie
>aabdalla#pollux.usc.edu Ahmed
>Abd-Allah
>endro#sys3.cs.usu.edu Endro
>Kusumo
>malo#pop3.utoledo.edu Mohammed
>Alo
>ASyamil#uoft02.utoledo.edu John
>Doe
>pjohnson#vsla.edu K. Paul
>Johnson
>aahmed#biology.biosci.wayne.edu Aamina
>Ahmed
>nali#med.wayne.edu Nasima
>Ali
>rufinus#mbe.ece.wisc.edu J
>Rufinus
>Paul.S.Wolf#alum.wpi.edu Paul S.
>Wolf
>vsaarine#cs.Helsinki.FI Vesa
>Saarinen
>bmcewan#healthnet.mrc.gm Bob
>McEwan.
>nmas#otenet.gr Nikos
>Mastrakoulis
>khairol#tm.net.my Khairol Azmi
>Yussof
>rinerin#tm.net.my shahrin shah bin abdul
>rahman
>sl1pbx#ameritech.net Gene
>Truto
>mbkafes#bestweb.net Milissa
>Boyer=20
>davetayl#concentric.net David
>Taylor
>islam662#CSSN.NET Sabeel
>Ahmed</FONT>
>booko#earthlink.net Sharon
>Bouchard
>oreocat#ETINTERNET.NET Gary L.
>King
>ljmoore#freespace.net
>LarryMoore
>sas#frontiernet.net
>Stuart S
>baird#gate.net Baird
>Stafford
>sinanju#gateway.net John
>Noland
>lightspring#jps.net Thomas
>Spellman
>rreini#mediaone.net Roger
>Reini
>peterry#megalink.net
>Peter=20
>bmathieu#micron.net Brent
>Mathieu
>EPierce#ns.net Eric D.
>Pierce
>jonboy#onlink.net Trevor
>Tymchuk
>r.marsou#pmail.net Robert
>Marsou
>RPittman#postmark.net Richard
>Pittman
>trhan#serv.net Teri
>Rhan
>alhadid#SoftHome.net
>Muhammad=20
>m-t-head#surfari.net Lloyd
>Madansky
>ayloush#usa.net Hussam
>Ayloush
>ceo4life#usa.net Harry
>Clinkhammer
>Toadis#usa.net Andres Gutierrez de
>Cos
>tommycarter#usa.net Tommy
>Carter
>emilyjackson#webtv.net Emily
>Jackson
>kaitlin_forrest#zensearch.net Kaitlin
>Forrest
>irina#rempt.xs4all.nl Irina
>Rempt
>forumbahai#es.co.nz Steve
>Marshall
>iio#iio.org Islamic Information
>Office
>irshad#irshad.org Muhammad
>Irshad
>peewee#scc.mi.org Jason
>Wright
>barthelmes#studentcenter.org Sophia
>Barthelmes
>andrew#erlenstar.demon.co.uk Andrew
>Gierth
>neil#nkelley.demon.co.uk neil
>kelley
>Chambers#fetchmail.co.uk Scott
>Chambers
>SamtheMan#postmaster.co.uk
>SamTHEMan
>
>Voted NO
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
>---
>mansouri#one.net.au Shahab
>Mansouri
>dany.steyaert#ping.be Dany
>Steyaert
>carol_bowie#mindlink.bc.ca David
>Bowie
>towfiq#401kforum.com Mark
>Towfiq
>AErfani#aol.com
>Hlpflhanna#aol.com Debbie
>Jenkins
>Mac0000013#aol.com
>Starlet001#aol.com Katherine
>Mayerovitch
>kimdv#best.com Kim
>DeVaughn
>stainles#bga.com Dwight
>Brown
>david.ritscher#bigfoot.com David
>Ritscher
>r.woodlock#bigfoot.com Rachel
>Butson
>lcs#zk3.dec.com Larry
>Smith
>camm#enhanced.com Camm
>Maguire
>caryenochr#enochsvision.com Enoch's Vision, Inc. (Cary Enoch
>R.)
>wcol#erols.com William
>Collins
>tom-hodges#geocities.com Tom
>Hodges
>aromatica45#hotmail.com Victoria
>Williams
>bearone1#hotmail.com Gary
>Rosenbaum
>fazlollahi#hotmail.com Ahmad
>Fazlollahi
>rachel_t#hotmail.com Theresa
>McClendon
>screamingb#hotmail.com Screaming
>Banshee
>swatchking#hotmail.com Fred
>Tague
>jjam#spica.hpl.hp.com Jim
>Jam
>nightbrd#humboldt1.com Douglas
>Myers
>shohre#itis.com Shohreh
>Mansouri
>bruce.limber#juno.com Bruce D.
>Limber
>lpolk01#juno.com Linda L
>Polk
>palmtop#mailtag.com Bonnie
>Blanford
>djull#mindspring.com David
>Jull
>slr1bpz#mindspring.com George
>McCoy
>bfwkendo#netvigator.com Brian
>Walker
>chriseb#nortelnetworks.com Chris
>Ebenezer
>dc#panix.com David W.
>Crawford
>persia#persia.com Robert
>Moldenhauer
>Sandy-Allan#dial.pipex.com Sandy
>Allan
>billh#samoatelco.com Bill
>Hyman
>doug.obrien#the-spa.com Doug
>O'Brien
>manialip#wowmail.com Kate
>Sparks
>francis_uy#yahoo.com
F
>Uy
>Ekkehard.Uthke#gmx.de Ekkehard
>Uthke
>naddy#mips.rhein-neckar.de Christian
>Weisgerber
>cnelson#calpoly.edu Craig
>Nelson
>aull#ll.mit.edu Brian
>Aull
>rick#bcm.tmc.edu Richard H.
>Miller
>kohli#mail.ameritel.net Pat
>Kohli
>helenko#bellsouth.net Helen
>Oney
>cybrmage#dave-world.net Bud
>Polk
>rogerb#foxinternet.net Roger
>Borseth
>ellis#ftel.net Rick
>Ellis
>vpdura#hiwaay.net Vic
>Dura
>Scarecro#ime.net Tim
>Griffin
>jcornell#lightspeed.net John B.
>Cornell
>verbrugh#pionet.net Albert
>Verbrugh
>okoboji#prodigy.net
>Loriann=20
>mehyar22#siol.net Mehyar
>Badii-Azandahi
>scooter#taranaki.ac.nz
>NUFAITH#wcnet.org Dennis
>Rule
>tr8770#bristol.ac.uk Tom
>Richards
>srm103#york.ac.uk Simon
>Mawhinney
>merlin#A470.demon.co.uk Darren Wyn
>Rees
>Graham#fragrant.demon.co.uk Graham
>Sorenson
>leili#Justice.Medford.MA.US Leili
>Towfigh
>
>Abstained
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
>---
>sw.unit02.msn#cwix.com Sue Klein
>Gennario
>chris#kzim.com Christopher Robin
>Zimmerman
>tikal#mailcity.com Samandar
>Roshan-Zamir
>neilc#wallaby.stanford.edu Neil
>Crellin
>schuette#s.imap.itd.umich.edu Wade
>Schuette
>rick#helix.nih.gov Rick
>Troxel
>
>Invalid ballots
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
>---
>afshin.afrashteh#utoronto.ca Afshin
>Afrashteh
> ! Disqualified
>webmaster#muntada.com Abdul-Rashid
>Abdullah
> ! Ineligible address
>ALTAFH#aol.com
> ! No vote statement in message
>MeCraigB#aol.com Craig
>Boyd
> ! No vote statement in message
>LISTSERV#H-NET.MSU.EDU L-Soft list server at H-Net - Humanities On-Line
>(1.8c)
> ! No vote statement in message
>lbhollin#ust.hk Richard
>Hollinger
> ! No vote statement in message
>smeanver#tm.net.my
>smeanver
> ! No vote statement in message
>mezmer#globalnet.co.uk
>Bob/Zannie
> ! No vote statement in message
>
>To restore the email addresses above, pipe the ack list through the
>following command:
>
> sed -e 's/#/@/g'
>
>--
>Voting question & problems: Dave Cornejo <dave@dogwood.com>
>Voting address: vote@dogwood.com
>
>
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, January 19, 1999 9:46 AM
To: Fran Baker; Frank Baker; Ron House
Subject: Fw: RESULT: talk.religion.bahai passes 218:63
More benightedness....
-----Original Message-----
From: Island Business Center (Bill Hyman) <billh@samoatelco.com>
To: FG <FG@hotmail.com>
Cc: dave@dogwood.com <dave@dogwood.com>
Date: Sunday, January 17, 1999 11:23 PM
Subject: Re: RESULT: talk.religion.bahai passes 218:63
>Dear Mr. Glaysher:
>Your submission containing the results of the CFV for talk.religion.bahai
>will be replaced by the official report which has been requested.
>
>Bill Hyman
>co-moderator
>soc.religion.bahai
>----------
>> From: "FG" <FG@hotmail.com>
>> To: <bahai-faith@bcca.org>
>> Subject: RESULT: talk.religion.bahai passes 218:63
>> Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 17:25:58 -0500
>>
>>From: Dave Cornejo <dave@dogwood.com>
>>Subject: RESULT: talk.religion.bahai passes 218:63
>>Date: Sunday, January 10, 1999 10:41 PM
>>
>> RESULT
>> unmoderated group talk.religion.bahai passes 218:63
>>
>>There were 218 YES votes and 63 NO votes, for a total of 281 valid
>>votes. There were 6 abstentions and 8 invalid ballots.
>>
>>For a group to pass, YES votes must be at least 2/3 of all valid
>>(YES and NO) votes. There must also be at least 100 more YES votes
>>than NO votes.
>>
>>A five day discussion period follows this announcement. If no
>>serious allegations of voting irregularities are raised, the
>>moderator of news.announce.newgroups will create the group shortly
>>thereafter.
>>
>>Newsgroups line:
>>talk.religion.bahai Discussion of the Baha'i Faith.
>>
>>Voting closed at 23:59:59 UTC, 25 Dec 1998.
>>
>>This vote was conducted by a neutral third party. Questions
>>about the proposed group should be directed to the proponent.
>>
>>Proponent: FG <FG@hotmail.com>
>>Proponent: Ron House <house@usq.edu.au>
>>Proponent: Fran Baker <fran@crhc.uiuc.edu>
>>Proponent: Frank Baker <fbaker@ncsa.uiuc.edu>
>>Proponent: John Walker <johnwalker@ozemail.com.au>
>>Votetaker: Dave Cornejo <dave@dogwood.com>
>>
>>RATIONALE: talk.religion.bahai
>>
>>The newsgroup talk.religion.bahai is proposed to meet the need for an
>>open and unmoderated forum for discussion of the Baha'i Faith within
>>the structure of the Big 8 hierarchies.
>>
>>The proponents intend that talk.religion.bahai will complement, rather
>>than supplant, the existing moderated group soc.religion.bahai, and
>>will provide those without access to alt.religion.bahai the
>>opportunity to participate. It is noted that the alt.* hierarchy is
>>less well propagated than the talk.* hierarchy; this has meant that
>>many people who have voted YES on earlier proposals have been unable
>>to join discussions on alt.religion.bahai.
>>
>>CHARTER: talk.religion.bahai
>>
>>All topics or ideas relevant to the Baha'i faith -- its history,
>>teachings, theology, etc. -- would be appropriate areas for
>>discussion.
>>
>>Talk.religion.bahai fills the need for a fully open and universally
>>accessible Internet forum about the Baha'i Faith. Postings may take
>>any point of view with regard to the Baha'i Faith. While this allows
>>criticism, it also fully opens the door for enquirers to see with
>>their own eyes and not through the eyes of their neighbors, asking
>>questions and reading replies from anyone who is interested in their
>>question.
>>
>>Readers are asked to observe standard netiquette in their use of this
>>newsgroup.
>>
>>Readers are asked to observe Baha'i standards of conduct and not to
>>start or prolong flamewars in the group, but to focus instead on
>>articles and threads written in more moderate terms.
>>
>>The posting of articles not relevant to the Baha'i Faith is
>>prohibited. Large ASCII graphics, large binaries, pornography, spam,
>>and any postings of a purely personal or commercial nature are
>>prohibited. To facilitate viewing in news readers that are not
>>HTML-capable, HTML-formatted postings are strongly discouraged.
>>
>>Cross-posting to irrelevant groups is also discouraged, and readers
>>are encouraged to redirect follow-ups to reduce excessive
>>cross-posting. Readers may also post articles that have been rejected
>>>from soc.religion.bahai, so long as they conform to this charter.
>>
>>END CHARTER.
>>
>>
>>DISTRIBUTION:
>>
>>In addition to the groups named in the Newsgroups: header, the CFV
>>and the eventual RESULT posts will be mailed to these mailing lists:
>>
>>Mailing list name: Talisman
>>Submission address: talisman@umich.edu
>>Request address: jsgreen@umich.edu
>>
>>Mailing list name: Bahai Studies
>>Submission address: bahai-st@johnco.cc.ks.us
>>Request address: major@johnco.cc.ks.us
>>
>>Mailing list name: h-Bahai
>>Submission address: h-Bahai@h-net.msu.edu
>>Request address: jrcole@umich.edu
>>
>>Mailing list name: bahai-faith
>>Submission address: bahai-faith@egroups.com
>>Request address: bahai-faith-subscribe@egroups.com
>>
>>Pointers directing readers to this CFV will be posted in these groups:
>>
>>alt.religion
>>soc.religion.eastern
>>soc.religion.gnosis
>>soc.religion.hindu
>>soc.religion.paganism
>>soc.religion.quaker
>>soc.religion.unitarian-univ
>>talk.religion.buddhism
>>talk.religion.newage
>>talk.philosophy.humanism
>>talk.philosophy.misc
>>uk.religion.interfaith
>>uk.religion.misc
>>uk.religion.other-faiths
>>
>>
>>
>>talk.religion.bahai Final Voter list
>>
>>Voted YES
>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
>-
>>---
>>garner#looksmart.com.au Rena
>>Garner
>>johnn#mpx.com.au
John
>>New
>>mclark#tpgi.com.au Martin
>>Clark
>>house#usq.edu.au Ron
>>House
>>jmara#cyllene.uwa.edu.au Joel Jani
>>Marangella
>>ghous#osr.nsw.gov.au Gitie
>>House
>>billbrwr#compusmart.ab.ca Bill
>>Brewer
>>sugimotm#cuug.ab.ca Mike
>>Sugimoto
>>crleech#freenet.carleton.ca Colin R.
>>Leech
>>shaheedi#nbnet.nb.ca Afzal
>>Shaheedi
>>trustone#bc.sympatico.ca Akbarally
>>Meherally
>>zarepour#mathstat.uottawa.ca Mahmoud
>>Zarepour.
>>narayan123#123india.com Kanva
>>Narayan
>>tierney#alloymail.com Sal
>>Tierney
>>hanv#angelfire.com Haq
>>Hanvey
>>AAli929596#aol.com
Abdulnasser
>>Ali
>>BRaynor781#aol.com
>>CRust60001#aol.com
>>FG#aol.com Frederick
>>Glaysher
>>HANI72#aol.com Hani
>>Ayyad
>>Jimo3#aol.com Jim
>>Overmyer
>>JoySafari#aol.com Marcella
>>Hamilton
>>KevinEco#aol.com Kevin
>>Haines
>>Macho786#aol.com Maaz
>>Khan
>>Member1700#aol.com Anthony
A.
>>Lee
>>PParvin#aol.com
>>RayHanania#aol.com
John
>>Doe
>>RobertNik#aol.com Robert S
>>Nikjoo
>>SAMaso#aol.com J. Eddie
>>Parent.
>>Shaksway#aol.com jim Davis
>>(shaksway)
>>Smastr#aol.com Sam
>>Masters
>>amasri#dcn.att.com Ala'a
>>Elmasri
>>macleod#beloved.com John
>>MacLeod
>>alexdawson#bigfoot.com Alex
>>Dawson
>>kindervater#businessweekmail.com "Doc"
>>Kindervater
>>tom4#canoemail.com Thomas
>>Buckland
>>sandraa#ccnmail.com
>S.
>>A.
>>habuhant#CH2M.com Haytham
>>Abu-Hantash
>>markow#chickmail.com Sassy
>>Markow
>>Laudrigan#collegeclub.com Bud
>>Laudrigan
>>jgoldberg#condolawyers.com Jeffrey A.
>>Goldberg
>>kathleenm#cybertrails.com McKibben
>>Family
>>eridani#databasix.com
>>Belinda
>>booda#datasync.com Martin H.
>>Booda
>>guymacon#deltanet.com guymacon#deltanet.com (Guy
>>Macon)
>>vminai#spd.dsccc.com Viqar
>>Minai
>>carducci#easypost.com Ladislaus
>>Carducci
>>UNGARINO#ECardMail.Com Eleanor
>>Ungarino
>>john_brownston#educastmail.com John
>>Brownston
>>mercado959#email.com Jennifer
>>Mercado
>>edwardiii#england.com
Edward
>>III
>>stomljen#enteract.com Steve
>>Tomljenovic
>>rothbrian#mail.entrepreneurmag.com Brian
>>Roth
>>alshawa#erols.com Amer
>>Alshawa
>>shaukat#erols.com Khalid
>>Shaukat
>>tutstone#eudoramail.com Marlene
>>Tutstone
>>lopezaz#excite.com Jaime
>>Lopez
>>umaraadil#excite.com
>> Umar Aadil Abdul Rahman McKloskey
>>Abdullah
>>gkerley#execpc.com Gillam
>>Kerley
>>david#farrar.com David
>>Farrar
>>lucie_vendome#fcmail.com Lucie
>>Vendome
>>wilsonj#flashemail.com Jack
>>Wilson
>>runchey467#fnmail.com Jeff
>>Runchey
>>dave#frackit.com Dave
>>Ratcliffe
>>howie#giantsfan.com Ron
>>Howard
>>kendrick64#GNWMail.com Steve
>>Kendrick
>>BHoyt#goplay.com Brian
>>Hoyt
>>bjv#herbison.com B.J.
>>Herbison
>>maher#home.com Maher
>Bara
>>kat
>>c.nunez#hotbot.com Cindy
>>Nunez
>>burnettcj#hotmail.com Clara
>>Frade-Burnett
>>shakir_husain#hotmail.com Shakir
>>Husain
>>rdetweil#boi.hp.com Dick
>>Detweiler
>>rshane#us.ibm.com Randall
>>Shane
>>goodlett#ignmail.com Jim
>>Goodlett
>>takriti#ihorizons.com Mohamad
>>Takriti
>>hopegartner#iname.com Alice
>>Hopegartner
>>matthew_cromer#iname.com Matthew
>>Cromer
>>ramirazodi#iname.com Roohi
>>Amirazodi
>>muntada#inix.com
>>Rashid
>>jaed#jaedworks.com Jeanne A. E.
>>DeVoto
>>kwame#jahoopa.com Kwame
>>Unanda
>>samorgan#java-man.com
>><FONT =
>>r_lee#jerusalemail.com Lee
>>Rusan
>>Aansari#dc.jones.com
>>Aamir=20
>>o_elkordy#juno.com Omar El
>>Kordy
>>Christensen#kansascity.com Len
>>Christensen
>>henry42#mail.kmsp.com Henry
>>Wadsworth
>>todomanana#latino.com Miguel
>>Hernandez
>>David.Vessell#lpcorp.com David L.
>>Vessell
>>sponseller#lycosmail.com David
>>Sponseller
>>EdythBadalian#MailAndNews.com Edyth
>>Badalian
>>ogreen#mailcity.com
>>Ogreen
>>jensen29#mailtag.com Edward
>>Jensen
>>hoffman#mailwire.com Larry
>>Hoffman
>>cipher#mindspring.com
>>Cipher
>>unrein#cig.mot.com W.
>>Sanders-Unrein
>>billmc#email.msn.com Bill
>>McJohn
>>chesshazlett#email.msn.com " and be immediately
>>followed
>>olav#viking.mv.com Olav
>>Nieuwejaar
>>hyle#my-dejanews.com Sohayl
>>Shambashi
>>marifok#my-dejanews.com Arif
>>Muljadi
>>rlittle33#my-dejanews.com Robert
>>Little
>>sutherland55#netradiomail.com Lisa
>>Sutherland
>>mirele#newsguy.com Deana M.
>>Holmes
>>dmarasco#npsnet.com David
>>Marasco
>>cgruber#us.oracle.com Christian Edward
>>Gruber
>>jtidwell#animato.pn.com Jenifer P.
>>Tidwell
>>rlcarr#animato.pn.com Rich
>>Carreiro
>>ellenberg#popmail.com Jane
>>Ellenberg
>>E.Adams#pousa.com Eileen
>>Adams
>>MRaflin#PREMIER-OIL.com Muhammad
>>Raflin
>>robertwarren#prontomail.com Robert
>>Warren
>>timken#prontomail.com Ruth
>>Timken
>>Safir_Ulhaque#raytheon.com Safir
>>Ulhaque
>>jasonmeller#recyclermail.com Jason
>>Meller
>>griffin#rednecks.com Bud
>>Griffin
>>chvatel#rotfl.com David
>>Chvatel
>>maruyama#sacbeemail.com Victor
>>Maruyama
>>harold#shinsato.com Harold
>>Shinsato
>>imran#spsnet.com Imran A.
>>Mufti
>>pan#syix.com
>>Pan
>>s.humes#talk21.com Shirley
>>Humes
>>josephb#tezcat.com Joe
>>Bernstein
>>charlotte#thedorm.com Charlotte
>><BR>
>>lininger#theheadoffice.com Lininger
>><BR>
>>AlvartRiecker#unbounded.com Alvart
>>Riecker
>>smahmud#uop.com Shahid
>>Mahmud
>>lingel#email.women.com Sam
>>Lingel
>>haldi#worldmailer.com Kenneth
>>Haldi
>>arman_taj#yahoo.com Arman
>>Tajarobi
>>galaxy001#yahoo.com
>>j.s.
>>kruposki#yahoo.com Andrew
>>Krupowicz
>>nimans#yahoo.com Niman
>>Shukairy
>>padidehjan#yahoo.com
>>PadidehjAn
>>uhler668#yahoo.com Nancy
>>Uhler
>>kakhtar#yours.com Khalid
>>Akhtar
>>vote#kholdan.snafu.de tobias
>>erle
>>indratmoko.poerwanto#heim6.tu-clausthal.de Indratmoko
>>Poerwanto
>>cstone#uclink4.berkeley.edu Chris
>>Stone
>>nmcnelly#bu.edu N.A.F.
>>McNelly
>>hfung#CSUPomona.Edu Henry
>>Fung
>>jdeutsch#osf1.gmu.edu Jeffrey
>>Deutsch
>>jdresner#fas.harvard.edu Jonathan
>>Dresner
>>jwalbrid#indiana.edu John
>>Walbridge
>>moslem#MIT.EDU Tarik
>>Alatovic
>>osborndo#pilot.msu.edu Donald Z
>>Osborn
>>akhtars#ee.eng.ohio-state.edu Siraj
>>Akhtar
>>daas#bobcat.ent.ohiou.edu Mutaz
>>Daas
>>wajahat#bobcat.ent.ohiou.edu Wajahat A
>>Khan
>>slipstk#olemiss.edu Gordon
>>Smith
>>kopetsbj#cs.purdue.edu Brett J.
>>Kopetsky
>>DELETE_Massoud.Ajami#sdsu.edu Massoud
>>Ajami
>>fran#crhc.uiuc.edu Frances R.
>>Baker
>>fbaker#ncsa.uiuc.edu Frank
>>Baker
>>ashaikh#eecs.umich.edu Anees
>>Shaikh
>>nedsaleh#engin.umich.edu Nedal
>>Saleh
>>jrcole#umich.edu Juan
>>Cole
>>nizam#umich.edu Nizam
>>Arain
>>harinath#cs.umn.edu Raja R
>>Harinath
>>hougen#cs.umn.edu Dean
>>Hougen
>>whitl005#tc.umn.edu Jonathan R
>>Whitling
>>dbowie#sas.upenn.edu David
>>Bowie
>>aabdalla#pollux.usc.edu Ahmed
>>Abd-Allah
>>endro#sys3.cs.usu.edu Endro
>>Kusumo
>>malo#pop3.utoledo.edu
Mohammed
>>Alo
>>ASyamil#uoft02.utoledo.edu
John
>>Doe
>>pjohnson#vsla.edu K. Paul
>>Johnson
>>aahmed#biology.biosci.wayne.edu Aamina
>>Ahmed
>>nali#med.wayne.edu
Nasima
>>Ali
>>rufinus#mbe.ece.wisc.edu J
>>Rufinus
>>Paul.S.Wolf#alum.wpi.edu Paul S.
>>Wolf
>>vsaarine#cs.Helsinki.FI Vesa
>>Saarinen
>>bmcewan#healthnet.mrc.gm Bob
>>McEwan.
>>nmas#otenet.gr Nikos
>>Mastrakoulis
>>khairol#tm.net.my Khairol Azmi
>>Yussof
>>rinerin#tm.net.my shahrin shah bin abdul
>>rahman
>>sl1pbx#ameritech.net Gene
>>Truto
>>mbkafes#bestweb.net Milissa
>>Boyer=20
>>davetayl#concentric.net David
>>Taylor
>>islam662#CSSN.NET Sabeel
>>Ahmed</FONT>
>>booko#earthlink.net Sharon
>>Bouchard
>>oreocat#ETINTERNET.NET Gary L.
>>King
>>ljmoore#freespace.net
>>LarryMoore
>>sas#frontiernet.net
>>Stuart S
>>baird#gate.net Baird
>>Stafford
>>sinanju#gateway.net John
>>Noland
>>lightspring#jps.net Thomas
>>Spellman
>>rreini#mediaone.net Roger
>>Reini
>>peterry#megalink.net
>>Peter=20
>>bmathieu#micron.net Brent
>>Mathieu
>>EPierce#ns.net Eric D.
>>Pierce
>>jonboy#onlink.net Trevor
>>Tymchuk
>>r.marsou#pmail.net Robert
>>Marsou
>>RPittman#postmark.net Richard
>>Pittman
>>trhan#serv.net Teri
>>Rhan
>>alhadid#SoftHome.net
>>Muhammad=20
>>m-t-head#surfari.net Lloyd
>>Madansky
>>ayloush#usa.net Hussam
>>Ayloush
>>ceo4life#usa.net Harry
>>Clinkhammer
>>Toadis#usa.net Andres Gutierrez
de
>>Cos
>>tommycarter#usa.net Tommy
>>Carter
>>emilyjackson#webtv.net Emily
>>Jackson
>>kaitlin_forrest#zensearch.net Kaitlin
>>Forrest
>>irina#rempt.xs4all.nl Irina
>>Rempt
>>forumbahai#es.co.nz Steve
>>Marshall
>>iio#iio.org Islamic Information
>>Office
>>irshad#irshad.org Muhammad
>>Irshad
>>peewee#scc.mi.org Jason
>>Wright
>>barthelmes#studentcenter.org Sophia
>>Barthelmes
>>andrew#erlenstar.demon.co.uk Andrew
>>Gierth
>>neil#nkelley.demon.co.uk neil
>>kelley
>>Chambers#fetchmail.co.uk Scott
>>Chambers
>>SamtheMan#postmaster.co.uk
>>SamTHEMan
>>
>>Voted NO
>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
>-
>>---
>>mansouri#one.net.au Shahab
>>Mansouri
>>dany.steyaert#ping.be Dany
>>Steyaert
>>carol_bowie#mindlink.bc.ca David
>>Bowie
>>towfiq#401kforum.com Mark
>>Towfiq
>>AErfani#aol.com
>>Hlpflhanna#aol.com Debbie
>>Jenkins
>>Mac0000013#aol.com
>>Starlet001#aol.com Katherine
>>Mayerovitch
>>kimdv#best.com Kim
>>DeVaughn
>>stainles#bga.com Dwight
>>Brown
>>david.ritscher#bigfoot.com David
>>Ritscher
>>r.woodlock#bigfoot.com Rachel
>>Butson
>>lcs#zk3.dec.com Larry
>>Smith
>>camm#enhanced.com Camm
>>Maguire
>>caryenochr#enochsvision.com Enoch's Vision, Inc. (Cary
Enoch
>>R.)
>>wcol#erols.com William
>>Collins
>>tom-hodges#geocities.com Tom
>>Hodges
>>aromatica45#hotmail.com Victoria
>>Williams
>>bearone1#hotmail.com Gary
>>Rosenbaum
>>fazlollahi#hotmail.com Ahmad
>>Fazlollahi
>>rachel_t#hotmail.com Theresa
>>McClendon
>>screamingb#hotmail.com Screaming
>>Banshee
>>swatchking#hotmail.com Fred
>>Tague
>>jjam#spica.hpl.hp.com
Jim
>>Jam
>>nightbrd#humboldt1.com Douglas
>>Myers
>>shohre#itis.com Shohreh
>>Mansouri
>>bruce.limber#juno.com Bruce D.
>>Limber
>>lpolk01#juno.com Linda L
>>Polk
>>palmtop#mailtag.com Bonnie
>>Blanford
>>djull#mindspring.com David
>>Jull
>>slr1bpz#mindspring.com George
>>McCoy
>>bfwkendo#netvigator.com Brian
>>Walker
>>chriseb#nortelnetworks.com Chris
>>Ebenezer
>>dc#panix.com David W.
>>Crawford
>>persia#persia.com Robert
>>Moldenhauer
>>Sandy-Allan#dial.pipex.com Sandy
>>Allan
>>billh#samoatelco.com Bill
>>Hyman
>>doug.obrien#the-spa.com Doug
>>O'Brien
>>manialip#wowmail.com Kate
>>Sparks
>>francis_uy#yahoo.com
>F
>>Uy
>>Ekkehard.Uthke#gmx.de Ekkehard
>>Uthke
>>naddy#mips.rhein-neckar.de Christian
>>Weisgerber
>>cnelson#calpoly.edu Craig
>>Nelson
>>aull#ll.mit.edu Brian
>>Aull
>>rick#bcm.tmc.edu Richard H.
>>Miller
>>kohli#mail.ameritel.net Pat
>>Kohli
>>helenko#bellsouth.net Helen
>>Oney
>>cybrmage#dave-world.net Bud
>>Polk
>>rogerb#foxinternet.net Roger
>>Borseth
>>ellis#ftel.net Rick
>>Ellis
>>vpdura#hiwaay.net Vic
>>Dura
>>Scarecro#ime.net Tim
>>Griffin
>>jcornell#lightspeed.net John B.
>>Cornell
>>verbrugh#pionet.net Albert
>>Verbrugh
>>okoboji#prodigy.net
>>Loriann=20
>>mehyar22#siol.net Mehyar
>>Badii-Azandahi
>>scooter#taranaki.ac.nz
>>NUFAITH#wcnet.org Dennis
>>Rule
>>tr8770#bristol.ac.uk Tom
>>Richards
>>srm103#york.ac.uk Simon
>>Mawhinney
>>merlin#A470.demon.co.uk Darren Wyn
>>Rees
>>Graham#fragrant.demon.co.uk Graham
>>Sorenson
>>leili#Justice.Medford.MA.US Leili
>>Towfigh
>>
>>Abstained
>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
>-
>>---
>>sw.unit02.msn#cwix.com Sue Klein
>>Gennario
>>chris#kzim.com Christopher Robin
>>Zimmerman
>>tikal#mailcity.com Samandar
>>Roshan-Zamir
>>neilc#wallaby.stanford.edu Neil
>>Crellin
>>schuette#s.imap.itd.umich.edu Wade
>>Schuette
>>rick#helix.nih.gov Rick
>>Troxel
>>
>>Invalid ballots
>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
>-
>>---
>>afshin.afrashteh#utoronto.ca Afshin
>>Afrashteh
>> ! Disqualified
>>webmaster#muntada.com Abdul-Rashid
>>Abdullah
>> ! Ineligible address
>>ALTAFH#aol.com
>> ! No vote statement in message
>>MeCraigB#aol.com Craig
>>Boyd
>> ! No vote statement in message
>>LISTSERV#H-NET.MSU.EDU L-Soft list server at H-Net - Humanities On-Line
>>(1.8c)
>> ! No vote statement in message
>>lbhollin#ust.hk Richard
>>Hollinger
>> ! No vote statement in message
>>smeanver#tm.net.my
>>smeanver
>> ! No vote statement in message
>>mezmer#globalnet.co.uk
>>Bob/Zannie
>> ! No vote statement in message
>>
>>To restore the email addresses above, pipe the ack list through the
>>following command:
>>
>> sed -e 's/#/@/g'
>>
>>--
>>Voting question & problems: Dave Cornejo <dave@dogwood.com>
>>Voting address: vote@dogwood.com
>>
>
>
>
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, January 19, 1999 9:46 AM
To: Fran Baker; Frank Baker; Ron House
Subject: Fw: RESULT: talk.religion.bahai passes 218:63
The coup de grace....
-----Original Message-----
From: Island Business Center (Bill Hyman) <billh@samoatelco.com>
To: dave@dogwood.com <dave@dogwood.com>
Cc: srb <srb-mods@bcca.org>
Date: Sunday, January 17, 1999 9:24 PM
Subject: FW: RESULT: talk.religion.bahai passes 218:63
>Dear Mr. Cornejo:
>
>I have been forwarded the results of the CFV for talk.religion.bahai, by
Mr.
>Glaysher, one of the proponents. I have no problem with posting the
results,
>but query posting the Rationale and the Charter, which have already been
>posted on srb, but were included with the results. I consider that posting
>how individuals voted is also questionable unless each voter's permission
>has been obtained.I have placed these matters under advisement with the
rest
>of the moderating team, but I would like your views on the subject before
we
>make a decision.
>
>Many thanks,
>Bill Hyman
>co-moderator
>soc.religion.bahai
>----------
>From: "FG" <FG@hotmail.com>
>To: <bahai-faith@bcca.org>
>Subject: RESULT: talk.religion.bahai passes 218:63
>Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 17:25:58 -0500
>
>From: Dave Cornejo <dave@dogwood.com>
>Subject: RESULT: talk.religion.bahai passes 218:63
>Date: Sunday, January 10, 1999 10:41 PM
>
> RESULT
> unmoderated group talk.religion.bahai passes 218:63
>
>There were 218 YES votes and 63 NO votes, for a total of 281 valid
>votes. There were 6 abstentions and 8 invalid ballots.
>
>For a group to pass, YES votes must be at least 2/3 of all valid
>(YES and NO) votes. There must also be at least 100 more YES votes
>than NO votes.
>
>A five day discussion period follows this announcement. If no
>serious allegations of voting irregularities are raised, the
>moderator of news.announce.newgroups will create the group shortly
>thereafter.
>
>Newsgroups line:
>talk.religion.bahai Discussion of the Baha'i Faith.
>
>Voting closed at 23:59:59 UTC, 25 Dec 1998.
>
>This vote was conducted by a neutral third party. Questions
>about the proposed group should be directed to the proponent.
>
>Proponent: FG <FG@hotmail.com>
>Proponent: Ron House <house@usq.edu.au>
>Proponent: Fran Baker <fran@crhc.uiuc.edu>
>Proponent: Frank Baker <fbaker@ncsa.uiuc.edu>
>Proponent: John Walker <johnwalker@ozemail.com.au>
>Votetaker: Dave Cornejo <dave@dogwood.com>
>
>RATIONALE: talk.religion.bahai
>
>The newsgroup talk.religion.bahai is proposed to meet the need for an
>open and unmoderated forum for discussion of the Baha'i Faith within
>the structure of the Big 8 hierarchies.
>
>The proponents intend that talk.religion.bahai will complement, rather
>than supplant, the existing moderated group soc.religion.bahai, and
>will provide those without access to alt.religion.bahai the
>opportunity to participate. It is noted that the alt.* hierarchy is
>less well propagated than the talk.* hierarchy; this has meant that
>many people who have voted YES on earlier proposals have been unable
>to join discussions on alt.religion.bahai.
>
>CHARTER: talk.religion.bahai
>
>All topics or ideas relevant to the Baha'i faith -- its history,
>teachings, theology, etc. -- would be appropriate areas for
>discussion.
>
>Talk.religion.bahai fills the need for a fully open and universally
>accessible Internet forum about the Baha'i Faith. Postings may take
>any point of view with regard to the Baha'i Faith. While this allows
>criticism, it also fully opens the door for enquirers to see with
>their own eyes and not through the eyes of their neighbors, asking
>questions and reading replies from anyone who is interested in their
>question.
>
>Readers are asked to observe standard netiquette in their use of this
>newsgroup.
>
>Readers are asked to observe Baha'i standards of conduct and not to
>start or prolong flamewars in the group, but to focus instead on
>articles and threads written in more moderate terms.
>
>The posting of articles not relevant to the Baha'i Faith is
>prohibited. Large ASCII graphics, large binaries, pornography, spam,
>and any postings of a purely personal or commercial nature are
>prohibited. To facilitate viewing in news readers that are not
>HTML-capable, HTML-formatted postings are strongly discouraged.
>
>Cross-posting to irrelevant groups is also discouraged, and readers
>are encouraged to redirect follow-ups to reduce excessive
>cross-posting. Readers may also post articles that have been rejected
>>from soc.religion.bahai, so long as they conform to this charter.
>
>END CHARTER.
>
>
>DISTRIBUTION:
>
>In addition to the groups named in the Newsgroups: header, the CFV
>and the eventual RESULT posts will be mailed to these mailing lists:
>
>Mailing list name: Talisman
>Submission address: talisman@umich.edu
>Request address: jsgreen@umich.edu
>
>Mailing list name: Bahai Studies
>Submission address: bahai-st@johnco.cc.ks.us
>Request address: major@johnco.cc.ks.us
>
>Mailing list name: h-Bahai
>Submission address: h-Bahai@h-net.msu.edu
>Request address: jrcole@umich.edu
>
>Mailing list name: bahai-faith
>Submission address: bahai-faith@egroups.com
>Request address: bahai-faith-subscribe@egroups.com
>
>Pointers directing readers to this CFV will be posted in these groups:
>
>alt.religion
>soc.religion.eastern
>soc.religion.gnosis
>soc.religion.hindu
>soc.religion.paganism
>soc.religion.quaker
>soc.religion.unitarian-univ
>talk.religion.buddhism
>talk.religion.newage
>talk.philosophy.humanism
>talk.philosophy.misc
>uk.religion.interfaith
>uk.religion.misc
>uk.religion.other-faiths
>
>
>
>talk.religion.bahai Final Voter list
>
>Voted YES
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
>---
>garner#looksmart.com.au Rena
>Garner
>johnn#mpx.com.au John
>New
>mclark#tpgi.com.au Martin
>Clark
>house#usq.edu.au Ron
>House
>jmara#cyllene.uwa.edu.au Joel Jani
>Marangella
>ghous#osr.nsw.gov.au Gitie
>House
>billbrwr#compusmart.ab.ca Bill
>Brewer
>sugimotm#cuug.ab.ca Mike
>Sugimoto
>crleech#freenet.carleton.ca Colin R.
>Leech
>shaheedi#nbnet.nb.ca Afzal
>Shaheedi
>trustone#bc.sympatico.ca Akbarally
>Meherally
>zarepour#mathstat.uottawa.ca Mahmoud
>Zarepour.
>narayan123#123india.com Kanva
>Narayan
>tierney#alloymail.com Sal
>Tierney
>hanv#angelfire.com Haq
>Hanvey
>AAli929596#aol.com Abdulnasser
>Ali
>BRaynor781#aol.com
>CRust60001#aol.com
>FG#aol.com Frederick
>Glaysher
>HANI72#aol.com Hani
>Ayyad
>Jimo3#aol.com Jim
>Overmyer
>JoySafari#aol.com Marcella
>Hamilton
>KevinEco#aol.com Kevin
>Haines
>Macho786#aol.com Maaz
>Khan
>Member1700#aol.com Anthony A.
>Lee
>PParvin#aol.com
>RayHanania#aol.com John
>Doe
>RobertNik#aol.com Robert S
>Nikjoo
>SAMaso#aol.com J. Eddie
>Parent.
>Shaksway#aol.com jim Davis
>(shaksway)
>Smastr#aol.com Sam
>Masters
>amasri#dcn.att.com Ala'a
>Elmasri
>macleod#beloved.com John
>MacLeod
>alexdawson#bigfoot.com Alex
>Dawson
>kindervater#businessweekmail.com "Doc"
>Kindervater
>tom4#canoemail.com Thomas
>Buckland
>sandraa#ccnmail.com
S.
>A.
>habuhant#CH2M.com Haytham
>Abu-Hantash
>markow#chickmail.com Sassy
>Markow
>Laudrigan#collegeclub.com Bud
>Laudrigan
>jgoldberg#condolawyers.com Jeffrey A.
>Goldberg
>kathleenm#cybertrails.com McKibben
>Family
>eridani#databasix.com
>Belinda
>booda#datasync.com Martin H.
>Booda
>guymacon#deltanet.com guymacon#deltanet.com (Guy
>Macon)
>vminai#spd.dsccc.com Viqar
>Minai
>carducci#easypost.com Ladislaus
>Carducci
>UNGARINO#ECardMail.Com Eleanor
>Ungarino
>john_brownston#educastmail.com John
>Brownston
>mercado959#email.com Jennifer
>Mercado
>edwardiii#england.com Edward
>III
>stomljen#enteract.com Steve
>Tomljenovic
>rothbrian#mail.entrepreneurmag.com Brian
>Roth
>alshawa#erols.com Amer
>Alshawa
>shaukat#erols.com Khalid
>Shaukat
>tutstone#eudoramail.com Marlene
>Tutstone
>lopezaz#excite.com Jaime
>Lopez
>umaraadil#excite.com
> Umar Aadil Abdul Rahman McKloskey
>Abdullah
>gkerley#execpc.com Gillam
>Kerley
>david#farrar.com David
>Farrar
>lucie_vendome#fcmail.com Lucie
>Vendome
>wilsonj#flashemail.com Jack
>Wilson
>runchey467#fnmail.com Jeff
>Runchey
>dave#frackit.com Dave
>Ratcliffe
>howie#giantsfan.com Ron
>Howard
>kendrick64#GNWMail.com Steve
>Kendrick
>BHoyt#goplay.com Brian
>Hoyt
>bjv#herbison.com B.J.
>Herbison
>maher#home.com Maher
Bara
>kat
>c.nunez#hotbot.com Cindy
>Nunez
>burnettcj#hotmail.com Clara
>Frade-Burnett
>shakir_husain#hotmail.com Shakir
>Husain
>rdetweil#boi.hp.com Dick
>Detweiler
>rshane#us.ibm.com Randall
>Shane
>goodlett#ignmail.com Jim
>Goodlett
>takriti#ihorizons.com Mohamad
>Takriti
>hopegartner#iname.com Alice
>Hopegartner
>matthew_cromer#iname.com Matthew
>Cromer
>ramirazodi#iname.com Roohi
>Amirazodi
>muntada#inix.com
>Rashid
>jaed#jaedworks.com Jeanne A. E.
>DeVoto
>kwame#jahoopa.com Kwame
>Unanda
>samorgan#java-man.com
><FONT =
>r_lee#jerusalemail.com Lee
>Rusan
>Aansari#dc.jones.com
>Aamir=20
>o_elkordy#juno.com Omar El
>Kordy
>Christensen#kansascity.com Len
>Christensen
>henry42#mail.kmsp.com Henry
>Wadsworth
>todomanana#latino.com Miguel
>Hernandez
>David.Vessell#lpcorp.com David L.
>Vessell
>sponseller#lycosmail.com David
>Sponseller
>EdythBadalian#MailAndNews.com Edyth
>Badalian
>ogreen#mailcity.com
>Ogreen
>jensen29#mailtag.com Edward
>Jensen
>hoffman#mailwire.com Larry
>Hoffman
>cipher#mindspring.com
>Cipher
>unrein#cig.mot.com W.
>Sanders-Unrein
>billmc#email.msn.com Bill
>McJohn
>chesshazlett#email.msn.com " and be immediately
>followed
>olav#viking.mv.com Olav
>Nieuwejaar
>hyle#my-dejanews.com Sohayl
>Shambashi
>marifok#my-dejanews.com Arif
>Muljadi
>rlittle33#my-dejanews.com Robert
>Little
>sutherland55#netradiomail.com Lisa
>Sutherland
>mirele#newsguy.com Deana M.
>Holmes
>dmarasco#npsnet.com David
>Marasco
>cgruber#us.oracle.com Christian Edward
>Gruber
>jtidwell#animato.pn.com Jenifer P.
>Tidwell
>rlcarr#animato.pn.com Rich
>Carreiro
>ellenberg#popmail.com Jane
>Ellenberg
>E.Adams#pousa.com Eileen
>Adams
>MRaflin#PREMIER-OIL.com Muhammad
>Raflin
>robertwarren#prontomail.com Robert
>Warren
>timken#prontomail.com Ruth
>Timken
>Safir_Ulhaque#raytheon.com Safir
>Ulhaque
>jasonmeller#recyclermail.com Jason
>Meller
>griffin#rednecks.com Bud
>Griffin
>chvatel#rotfl.com David
>Chvatel
>maruyama#sacbeemail.com Victor
>Maruyama
>harold#shinsato.com Harold
>Shinsato
>imran#spsnet.com Imran A.
>Mufti
>pan#syix.com
>Pan
>s.humes#talk21.com Shirley
>Humes
>josephb#tezcat.com Joe
>Bernstein
>charlotte#thedorm.com Charlotte
><BR>
>lininger#theheadoffice.com Lininger
><BR>
>AlvartRiecker#unbounded.com Alvart
>Riecker
>smahmud#uop.com Shahid
>Mahmud
>lingel#email.women.com Sam
>Lingel
>haldi#worldmailer.com Kenneth
>Haldi
>arman_taj#yahoo.com Arman
>Tajarobi
>galaxy001#yahoo.com
>j.s.
>kruposki#yahoo.com Andrew
>Krupowicz
>nimans#yahoo.com Niman
>Shukairy
>padidehjan#yahoo.com
>PadidehjAn
>uhler668#yahoo.com Nancy
>Uhler
>kakhtar#yours.com Khalid
>Akhtar
>vote#kholdan.snafu.de tobias
>erle
>indratmoko.poerwanto#heim6.tu-clausthal.de Indratmoko
>Poerwanto
>cstone#uclink4.berkeley.edu Chris
>Stone
>nmcnelly#bu.edu N.A.F.
>McNelly
>hfung#CSUPomona.Edu Henry
>Fung
>jdeutsch#osf1.gmu.edu Jeffrey
>Deutsch
>jdresner#fas.harvard.edu Jonathan
>Dresner
>jwalbrid#indiana.edu John
>Walbridge
>moslem#MIT.EDU Tarik
>Alatovic
>osborndo#pilot.msu.edu Donald Z
>Osborn
>akhtars#ee.eng.ohio-state.edu Siraj
>Akhtar
>daas#bobcat.ent.ohiou.edu Mutaz
>Daas
>wajahat#bobcat.ent.ohiou.edu Wajahat A
>Khan
>slipstk#olemiss.edu Gordon
>Smith
>kopetsbj#cs.purdue.edu Brett J.
>Kopetsky
>DELETE_Massoud.Ajami#sdsu.edu Massoud
>Ajami
>fran#crhc.uiuc.edu Frances R.
>Baker
>fbaker#ncsa.uiuc.edu Frank
>Baker
>ashaikh#eecs.umich.edu Anees
>Shaikh
>nedsaleh#engin.umich.edu Nedal
>Saleh
>jrcole#umich.edu Juan
>Cole
>nizam#umich.edu Nizam
>Arain
>harinath#cs.umn.edu Raja R
>Harinath
>hougen#cs.umn.edu Dean
>Hougen
>whitl005#tc.umn.edu Jonathan R
>Whitling
>dbowie#sas.upenn.edu David
>Bowie
>aabdalla#pollux.usc.edu Ahmed
>Abd-Allah
>endro#sys3.cs.usu.edu Endro
>Kusumo
>malo#pop3.utoledo.edu Mohammed
>Alo
>ASyamil#uoft02.utoledo.edu John
>Doe
>pjohnson#vsla.edu K. Paul
>Johnson
>aahmed#biology.biosci.wayne.edu Aamina
>Ahmed
>nali#med.wayne.edu Nasima
>Ali
>rufinus#mbe.ece.wisc.edu J
>Rufinus
>Paul.S.Wolf#alum.wpi.edu Paul S.
>Wolf
>vsaarine#cs.Helsinki.FI Vesa
>Saarinen
>bmcewan#healthnet.mrc.gm Bob
>McEwan.
>nmas#otenet.gr Nikos
>Mastrakoulis
>khairol#tm.net.my Khairol Azmi
>Yussof
>rinerin#tm.net.my shahrin shah bin abdul
>rahman
>sl1pbx#ameritech.net Gene
>Truto
>mbkafes#bestweb.net Milissa
>Boyer=20
>davetayl#concentric.net David
>Taylor
>islam662#CSSN.NET Sabeel
>Ahmed</FONT>
>booko#earthlink.net Sharon
>Bouchard
>oreocat#ETINTERNET.NET Gary L.
>King
>ljmoore#freespace.net
>LarryMoore
>sas#frontiernet.net
>Stuart S
>baird#gate.net Baird
>Stafford
>sinanju#gateway.net John
>Noland
>lightspring#jps.net Thomas
>Spellman
>rreini#mediaone.net Roger
>Reini
>peterry#megalink.net
>Peter=20
>bmathieu#micron.net Brent
>Mathieu
>EPierce#ns.net Eric D.
>Pierce
>jonboy#onlink.net Trevor
>Tymchuk
>r.marsou#pmail.net Robert
>Marsou
>RPittman#postmark.net Richard
>Pittman
>trhan#serv.net Teri
>Rhan
>alhadid#SoftHome.net
>Muhammad=20
>m-t-head#surfari.net Lloyd
>Madansky
>ayloush#usa.net Hussam
>Ayloush
>ceo4life#usa.net Harry
>Clinkhammer
>Toadis#usa.net Andres Gutierrez de
>Cos
>tommycarter#usa.net Tommy
>Carter
>emilyjackson#webtv.net Emily
>Jackson
>kaitlin_forrest#zensearch.net Kaitlin
>Forrest
>irina#rempt.xs4all.nl Irina
>Rempt
>forumbahai#es.co.nz Steve
>Marshall
>iio#iio.org Islamic Information
>Office
>irshad#irshad.org Muhammad
>Irshad
>peewee#scc.mi.org Jason
>Wright
>barthelmes#studentcenter.org Sophia
>Barthelmes
>andrew#erlenstar.demon.co.uk Andrew
>Gierth
>neil#nkelley.demon.co.uk neil
>kelley
>Chambers#fetchmail.co.uk Scott
>Chambers
>SamtheMan#postmaster.co.uk
>SamTHEMan
>
>Voted NO
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
>---
>mansouri#one.net.au Shahab
>Mansouri
>dany.steyaert#ping.be Dany
>Steyaert
>carol_bowie#mindlink.bc.ca David
>Bowie
>towfiq#401kforum.com Mark
>Towfiq
>AErfani#aol.com
>Hlpflhanna#aol.com Debbie
>Jenkins
>Mac0000013#aol.com
>Starlet001#aol.com Katherine
>Mayerovitch
>kimdv#best.com Kim
>DeVaughn
>stainles#bga.com Dwight
>Brown
>david.ritscher#bigfoot.com David
>Ritscher
>r.woodlock#bigfoot.com Rachel
>Butson
>lcs#zk3.dec.com Larry
>Smith
>camm#enhanced.com Camm
>Maguire
>caryenochr#enochsvision.com Enoch's Vision, Inc. (Cary Enoch
>R.)
>wcol#erols.com William
>Collins
>tom-hodges#geocities.com Tom
>Hodges
>aromatica45#hotmail.com Victoria
>Williams
>bearone1#hotmail.com Gary
>Rosenbaum
>fazlollahi#hotmail.com Ahmad
>Fazlollahi
>rachel_t#hotmail.com Theresa
>McClendon
>screamingb#hotmail.com Screaming
>Banshee
>swatchking#hotmail.com Fred
>Tague
>jjam#spica.hpl.hp.com Jim
>Jam
>nightbrd#humboldt1.com Douglas
>Myers
>shohre#itis.com Shohreh
>Mansouri
>bruce.limber#juno.com Bruce D.
>Limber
>lpolk01#juno.com Linda L
>Polk
>palmtop#mailtag.com Bonnie
>Blanford
>djull#mindspring.com David
>Jull
>slr1bpz#mindspring.com George
>McCoy
>bfwkendo#netvigator.com Brian
>Walker
>chriseb#nortelnetworks.com Chris
>Ebenezer
>dc#panix.com David W.
>Crawford
>persia#persia.com Robert
>Moldenhauer
>Sandy-Allan#dial.pipex.com Sandy
>Allan
>billh#samoatelco.com Bill
>Hyman
>doug.obrien#the-spa.com Doug
>O'Brien
>manialip#wowmail.com Kate
>Sparks
>francis_uy#yahoo.com
F
>Uy
>Ekkehard.Uthke#gmx.de Ekkehard
>Uthke
>naddy#mips.rhein-neckar.de Christian
>Weisgerber
>cnelson#calpoly.edu Craig
>Nelson
>aull#ll.mit.edu Brian
>Aull
>rick#bcm.tmc.edu Richard H.
>Miller
>kohli#mail.ameritel.net Pat
>Kohli
>helenko#bellsouth.net Helen
>Oney
>cybrmage#dave-world.net Bud
>Polk
>rogerb#foxinternet.net Roger
>Borseth
>ellis#ftel.net Rick
>Ellis
>vpdura#hiwaay.net Vic
>Dura
>Scarecro#ime.net Tim
>Griffin
>jcornell#lightspeed.net John B.
>Cornell
>verbrugh#pionet.net Albert
>Verbrugh
>okoboji#prodigy.net
>Loriann=20
>mehyar22#siol.net Mehyar
>Badii-Azandahi
>scooter#taranaki.ac.nz
>NUFAITH#wcnet.org Dennis
>Rule
>tr8770#bristol.ac.uk Tom
>Richards
>srm103#york.ac.uk Simon
>Mawhinney
>merlin#A470.demon.co.uk Darren Wyn
>Rees
>Graham#fragrant.demon.co.uk Graham
>Sorenson
>leili#Justice.Medford.MA.US Leili
>Towfigh
>
>Abstained
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
>---
>sw.unit02.msn#cwix.com Sue Klein
>Gennario
>chris#kzim.com Christopher Robin
>Zimmerman
>tikal#mailcity.com Samandar
>Roshan-Zamir
>neilc#wallaby.stanford.edu Neil
>Crellin
>schuette#s.imap.itd.umich.edu Wade
>Schuette
>rick#helix.nih.gov Rick
>Troxel
>
>Invalid ballots
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
>---
>afshin.afrashteh#utoronto.ca Afshin
>Afrashteh
> ! Disqualified
>webmaster#muntada.com Abdul-Rashid
>Abdullah
> ! Ineligible address
>ALTAFH#aol.com
> ! No vote statement in message
>MeCraigB#aol.com Craig
>Boyd
> ! No vote statement in message
>LISTSERV#H-NET.MSU.EDU L-Soft list server at H-Net - Humanities On-Line
>(1.8c)
> ! No vote statement in message
>lbhollin#ust.hk Richard
>Hollinger
> ! No vote statement in message
>smeanver#tm.net.my
>smeanver
> ! No vote statement in message
>mezmer#globalnet.co.uk
>Bob/Zannie
> ! No vote statement in message
>
>To restore the email addresses above, pipe the ack list through the
>following command:
>
> sed -e 's/#/@/g'
>
>--
>Voting question & problems: Dave Cornejo <dave@dogwood.com>
>Voting address: vote@dogwood.com
>
>
>
>
----------
From: McKenny Michael[SMTP:bn872@freenet.carleton.ca]
Sent: Tuesday, January 19, 1999 11:02 AM
To: FG@hotmail.com
Subject: Re: TRB
Greetings, Frederick.
Thanks for your comment.
Well, whether others say anything nice or not, the credit is yours
and the newsgroup has the potential to exert a beneficial influence, a
bit like a free press in a totalitarian state. Personally, I'm pretty
busy with many other things, and doubt I'll post much. Yet, I hope the
free flow of information will be very helpful.
Thanks again for such persistence in the face of such adversity.
May this find you with everything going well, and may the future
be ever better than what it replaces.
All the Best,
Michael
>
>Thanks, Michael. You're one of the very few who have
>said anything nice about it, as you might imagine....
>
>
--
"My name's McKenny, Mike McKenny, Warrant Officer, Solar Guard."
(Tom Corbett #1 STAND BY FOR MARS p2)
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, January 19, 1999 1:24 PM
Subject: Re: talk.religion.bahai
Kathy I. Morgan wrote in message
<1dlvabi.nhv2ie1b6aq8qN@dialups-50.tok.ptialaska.net>...
>
>The newsgroup is now available on the NewsGuy server, which doesn't
>honor the bogus newgroup messages, so it is official now. The official
>newgroup messages are signed with PGP, so servers which check for
>validity are able to tell the difference.
Thanks for letting us know.
Thanks again to everyone on news.groups.
Best wishes....
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, January 19, 1999 1:28 PM
To: talisman; bahai-faith @ egroups.com
Subject: talk.religion.bahai now available
Talk.religion.bahai does now seem to be available
with several new posts to it.
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, January 19, 1999 1:28 PM
Subject: talk.religion.bahai now available
Talk.religion.bahai does now seem to be available
with several new posts to it.
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, January 19, 1999 1:44 PM
Subject: Re: talk.religion.bahai now available
It might be necessary to reset or redownload your
newsgroups list or file to receive it.
>Talk.religion.bahai does now seem to be available
>with several new posts to it.
>
>FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
>https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
>alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
>
>
>
>
>
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 1999 7:34 AM
Subject: cmsg newgroup talk.religion.bahai
WWW.dejanews.com is already archiving talk.religion.bahai.
David Lawrence's control message is below or at the link
given:
https://x3.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=434147783&CONTEXT=916831681.318373975&hi
tnum=20
cmsg newgroup talk.religion.bahai
Author: David C Lawrence <group-admin@isc.org>
Date: 1999/01/18
Forum: talk.religion.bahai
more headers author posting history
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
talk.religion.bahai is an unmoderated newsgroup which passed its vote for
creation by 218:63 as reported in news.announce.newgroups on 11 Jan 1999.
For your newsgroups file:
talk.religion.bahai Discussion of the Baha'i Faith.
The charter, culled from the vote result announcement:
All topics or ideas relevant to the Baha'i faith -- its history,
teachings, theology, etc. -- would be appropriate areas for
discussion.
Talk.religion.bahai fills the need for a fully open and universally
accessible Internet forum about the Baha'i Faith. Postings may take
any point of view with regard to the Baha'i Faith. While this allows
criticism, it also fully opens the door for enquirers to see with
their own eyes and not through the eyes of their neighbors, asking
questions and reading replies from anyone who is interested in their
question.
Readers are asked to observe standard netiquette in their use of this
newsgroup.
Readers are asked to observe Baha'i standards of conduct and not to
start or prolong flamewars in the group, but to focus instead on
articles and threads written in more moderate terms.
The posting of articles not relevant to the Baha'i Faith is
prohibited. Large ASCII graphics, large binaries, pornography, spam,
and any postings of a purely personal or commercial nature are
prohibited. To facilitate viewing in news readers that are not
HTML-capable, HTML-formatted postings are strongly discouraged.
Cross-posting to irrelevant groups is also discouraged, and readers
are encouraged to redirect follow-ups to reduce excessive
cross-posting. Readers may also post articles that have been rejected
>from soc.religion.bahai, so long as they conform to this charter.
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 1999 7:38 AM
Subject: Antinomies - Frodo
Frodo:
"But I have been too deeply hurt, Sam. I tried to save the Shire,
and it has been saved, but not for me. It must often be so, Sam,
when things are in danger; some one has to give them up, lose
them, so that others may keep them. But you are my heir...."
J.R.R. Tolkien
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 1999 8:04 AM
To: Juan Cole
Subject: Maneck again; trb now available
If you wish, you could respond to her on trb.... I'm a little
weary of playing the messenger.
Subject: Re: fw 2nd Juan Cole on mass teaching
Date: 1/19/1999 3:47 PM Eastern Standard Time
From: Smaneck
Message-id: <19990119154759.01069.00001016@ng-fi1.aol.com>
DR Cole writes:
>>1) I have never said that the motive or even a motive of the NSA in
>>closing down the mass teaching in the South in the early '70s was
'racism.'
But then goes on to say of one of the members of that institution:
>the interviewing I've done
>>with people who knew her leads me strongly to suspect that her quietism
>>acted as a screen for discomfort with uppity Blacks.
Does anyone but me see a contradiction between those two statements? Why
would one even bring this into the discussion if one did not feel it
impacted the NSA's decision?
But I can do no better here than to quote the statement of one Baha'i on
arb:
"The implication of racism seems abundantly clear to me. For someone to
halt
the influx of membership because the race of the people entering the
orgainzation "challenged their system of control mechanisms" is the very
definition of racism."
As evidence that the NSA was concerned with their re-election prospects Juan
writes:
>>2) Bill Davis in one of his interrogations of the Dialogue editors in
>>spring, 1988, specifically said that the NSA had been worried that 'A
>>Modest Proposal' might come across to the delegates as a critique of the
>>sitting NSA's record (enrollments had fallen off drastically and
>virtually
>>no money was being put into teaching), and cost some of them election.
My recollection is that Bill Davis' concern was not articulated in this way.
He believed that the desire to distribute the paper to the delegates
represented an attempt to manipulate the elections. From the standpoint of
the NSA there was concern that this represented a form of campaigning
forbidden in the Baha'i electoral process.
>>Only the poor naifs who have never actually had anything serious to do
with
>>Wilmette are under the impression that no NSA member cares if he or she is
>>reelected.
Not the issue. The issue is whether such personal considerations, whether
or not they might exist, swayed the decisions of the NSA such that they
would have attempted to call a halt to mass teaching in order to stop an
influx of black believers who might shake the status quo. Even if the NSA
members were as enamored with their position as Dr. Cole would have us
believe, such an action would have been totally illogical. Dr. Cole knows
as well as I
that people brought in through mass teaching efforts rarely vote in Baha'i
elections. Not in the US not elsewhere. As we've seen even ex-Baha'is like
Larry who had seen the aftermath of mass teaching projects were prepared to
attest that this is so. India is the area with the most experience with
mass teaching. Both Dr. Cole and myself have conducted research in India so
we are both well informed of the situation there. In a few decades the size
of the Baha'i community grew from a few thousand to millions. Along with
this increase in numbers was a fast shift in the demographic makeup of the
community. Hitherto it had been made up of middle class urbanites mostly of
Zoroastrian and Muslim background, with a few Hindu intellectuals. As a
result of mass teaching the majority of Baha'is are now of Hindu background,
often tribals or untouchables. This vast demographic shift seems to have
little effect at the level of administration, where things still tend to be
dominated by these same urbanite Baha'is often of Irani Zoroastrian
extraction, who controlled things previously.
>Some of these elected officials are drawing substantial money
>>out of the faith.
I believe only four members of the current NSA are drawing any kind of
salary. There were even fewer in the early seventies, which is the period
we are talking about.
>The men all think they have a shot at getting elected to
>>the UHJ, and moving up to salaries in the large six figures as well as
>>enormous power in a community of 3 million.
Oh my, *all* the men think they have a shot at this? I'd sure like to see
the evidence for this. Remember, since we are talking about "all the men"
we have to have more evidence than an anecdotal story about one member.
Also, I'd like to see the evidence that members of the House of Justice
receive six digit salaries.
>>3) I have never called 'the Baha'i faith' a 'cult' globally.
On July 31, 1996 Dr. Cole wrote me the following: "This thing is a
totalitarian cult, Susan; it destroys any thinking person who becomes active
in it. Be careful." The title of Dr. Cole's article in the JSSR was to
have been "Sects, Cults and Asian Religions: The Baha'i Faith in America as
Panopticon, 1963-1996." I'm sure I can find other instances of this, if I
had the time to look.
>But using these new critiques, by someone now an outsider, to
>>justify the initial assault is like saying the victim of an attempted rape
>>provoked the rape when she sprayed mace at her assailant.
Not a good analogy. A better one would be this: if a woman accuses another
person of rape and then goes on to tell fantastic and impossible stories
about her so-called assailant, how credible is her witness to the original
crime?
Dr. Cole has given us here an example of his "scholarship" where the
flimsiest evidence was being adduced, as Bruce points out, clearly to
further a political agenda. From what I've seen of the Talisman archives,
what Dr. Cole is doing now he was doing then, howbeit somewhat less
hysterically.
>>What does it mean that this so-called 'counterfeit' authority was being
>>lent to an enterprise that was 'self-motivated?'
It means people were using their authority as scholars to try and remake the
Faith in their own image. Seems pretty clear to me, although perhaps it
would not have six months earlier. The House of Justice had told me in
their July 20, 1997 letter that I was being handed a crock of manure. I
didn't believe them. So Baha'u'llah spent the next six months rubbing my
nose in it. Eventually, I got the "whiff."
> In a hundred years people will still be reading
>>my book on Baha'u'llah. In a hundred years no one will have heard of any
>>of the current House members
Modest, aren't we? :-^)
>>Again, the UHJ is not empowered to stand in judgment of the character of
>>Baha'is
It is empowered to stand in judgment, period. According to the Will and
Testament:
"Whatsoever they decide is of God. Whoso obeyeth him not, neither obeyeth
them, hath not obeyed God; whoso rebelleth against him and against them hath
rebelled against God; whoso opposeth him hath opposed God; whoso contendeth
with them hath contended with God; whoso disputeth with him hath disputed
with God; whoso denieth him hath denied God; whoso disbelieveth in him hath
disbelieved in God; whoso deviateth, separateth himself and turneth aside
from him hath in truth deviated, separated himself and turned aside from
God. May the wrath, the fierce indignation, the vengeance of God rest upon
him!"
and
"Unto the Most Holy Book every one must turn, and all that is not expressly
recorded therein must be referred to the Universal House of Justice. That
which this body, whether unanimously or by a majority doth carry, that is
verily the truth and the purpose of God Himself. Whoso doth deviate
therefrom is verily of them that love discord, hath shown forth malice, and
turned away from the Lord of the Covenant."
Juan writes:
>It can only sanction actual behavior, not
>>sincere non-authoritative expressions of individual conscience.
However, 'Abdul-Baha writes:
"To none is given the right to put forth his own opinion or express his
particular conviction. All must seek guidance and turn unto the Center of
the Cause and the House of Justice. And he that turneth unto whatsoever else
is indeed in grievous error."
Now as we have already discussed "opinion" in this case largely revolves
around expressing opinions in matters of Baha'i law which go against the
interpretations of the Guardian and the rulings of the House of Justice. It
does not prohibit the expression of individual views (nazar) in general.
But in many instances Dr. Cole was engaging in the former rather than the
latter. In the case of the review he had been actively seeking to persuade
people
to boycott the review process. In other cases he had been encouraging
agitation against various decisions on the part of the House of Justice.
I submit that such behavior clearly constitutes *ra'i* in the explicit sense
that it was intended in the Will and Testament.
warmest,
Susan Maneck
"Lay not aside the fear of God, O ye the learned of the world, and judge
fairly"
Gleanings, p. 98
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 1999 8:22 AM
To: bahai-faith @ egroups.com
Subject: [bahai-faith] 20 subscribers on bahai-faith@egroups.com
<<File: [bahai-faith] 20 subscribers on bahai-faith@egroups.com.htm>>
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 1999 8:22 AM
To: bahai-faith @ egroups.com
Subject: 20 subscribers on bahai-faith@egroups.com
There are currently 20 subscribers on bahai-faith:
Member Label Since Mode
aborzo@hotmail.com (alias borzo) 09/22/98 e-mail
amy-n-ezra@mindspring.com (Amy & Ezra Libowsky) 01/12/99 e-mail
bintyaya@aol.com 05/11/98 e-mail
dmarasco@npsnet.com 10/09/98 Web
ewl@harvey.lib.il.us 01/08/99 e-mail
FG@hotmail.com (FG) 04/15/98 e-mail
harris632@aol.com 04/18/98 e-mail
house@usq.edu.au (Ron House) 05/19/98 e-mail
kathleenm@cybertrails.com (McKibben Family) 10/08/98 e-mail
laaeterna@aol.com 04/18/98 e-mail
mjavid@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca (Mesbah Javid) 05/16/98 e-mail
musdrava@c3.hu (Dráva Múzeum) 12/17/98 e-mail
rbccrc@bellatlantic.net 09/29/98 Web
seanm@bwc.org 11/20/98 e-mail
shadab7@hotmail.com (hamid keshavarz) 11/15/98 e-mail
silverwings@montana.com 09/25/98 e-mail
stephenb@polarnet.ca 04/20/98 e-mail
tracid@idirect.com 01/19/99 e-mail
whitbrandt@mailcity.com (John Whitbrandt) 05/16/98 e-mail
xto73@dial.pipex.com 08/10/98 e-mail
Talk.religion.bahai is now available. You may have to
reset or redownload the list or file of newsgroups from your
ISP in order to subscribe to it. Since the purpose of the this
mailing list was to help those unable to follow the discussion
on alt.religion.bahai to do so until trb was formed, it is no
longer needed.
I will be deleting it as a viable mailing list in just a few minutes.
If any of you wish to continue it, you have everyone's address
above with which to do so. Please do not include me.
Thank you one and all for participating!
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 1999 8:28 AM
Subject: Re: talk.religion.bahai RESULT on soc.religion.bahai?
The RESULT was posted on January 10th by the votetaker.
It has not yet appeared on soc.religion.bahai.
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
FG wrote in message <77ij27$bnl@news3.newsguy.com>...
>Has anyone seen the RESULT posted on soc.religion.bahai? It has
>appeared on the other newsgroups listed in the CFV.
>
>FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
>https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm
>talk.religion.bahai,
>alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
>
>
>
>
>
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 1999 8:33 AM
Subject: bahai-faith@egroups.com deleted
-----Original Message-----
From: FG <FG@hotmail.com>
To: bahai-faith @ egroups.com <bahai-faith@egroups.com>
Date: Wednesday, January 20, 1999 7:22 AM
Subject: 20 subscribers on bahai-faith@egroups.com
>There are currently 20 subscribers on bahai-faith:
>
> Member Label Since Mode
> aborzo@hotmail.com (alias borzo) 09/22/98 e-mail
> amy-n-ezra@mindspring.com (Amy & Ezra Libowsky) 01/12/99 e-mail
> bintyaya@aol.com 05/11/98 e-mail
> dmarasco@npsnet.com 10/09/98 Web
> ewl@harvey.lib.il.us 01/08/99 e-mail
> FG@hotmail.com (FG) 04/15/98 e-mail
> harris632@aol.com 04/18/98 e-mail
> house@usq.edu.au (Ron House) 05/19/98 e-mail
> kathleenm@cybertrails.com (McKibben Family) 10/08/98 e-mail
> laaeterna@aol.com 04/18/98 e-mail
> mjavid@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca (Mesbah Javid) 05/16/98 e-mail
> musdrava@c3.hu (Dráva Múzeum) 12/17/98 e-mail
> rbccrc@bellatlantic.net 09/29/98 Web
> seanm@bwc.org 11/20/98 e-mail
> shadab7@hotmail.com (hamid keshavarz) 11/15/98 e-mail
> silverwings@montana.com 09/25/98 e-mail
> stephenb@polarnet.ca 04/20/98 e-mail
> tracid@idirect.com 01/19/99 e-mail
> whitbrandt@mailcity.com (John Whitbrandt) 05/16/98 e-mail
> xto73@dial.pipex.com 08/10/98 e-mail
>
>Talk.religion.bahai is now available. You may have to
>reset or redownload the list or file of newsgroups from your
>ISP in order to subscribe to it. Since the purpose of the this
>mailing list was to help those unable to follow the discussion
>on alt.religion.bahai to do so until trb was formed, it is no
>longer needed.
>
>I will be deleting it as a viable mailing list in just a few minutes.
>
>If any of you wish to continue it, you have everyone's address
>above with which to do so. Please do not include me.
>
>Thank you one and all for participating!
>
>FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
>https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
>alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
----------
From: McKenny Michael[SMTP:bn872@freenet.carleton.ca]
Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 1999 10:47 AM
To: FG@hotmail.com
Subject: Re: Antinomies - Frodo
Greetings, Frederick.
If you are well, it is well.
This is just a short not to let you know that TRB is being picked
up on FreeNet here.
May the future exceed your highest hopes.
All the Best,
Michael
"FG" (FG@hotmail.com) writes:
> Frodo:
> "But I have been too deeply hurt, Sam. I tried to save the Shire,
> and it has been saved, but not for me. It must often be so, Sam,
> when things are in danger; some one has to give them up, lose
> them, so that others may keep them. But you are my heir...."
> J.R.R. Tolkien
>
> FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
> https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
> alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
>
>
>
>
>
--
"My name's McKenny, Mike McKenny, Warrant Officer, Solar Guard."
(Tom Corbett #1 STAND BY FOR MARS p2)
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 1999 11:35 AM
To: bn872@freenet.carleton.ca
Subject: Re: Antinomies - Frodo
Thanks! I appreciate knowing it.
Fred
-----Original Message-----
From: McKenny Michael <bn872@freenet.carleton.ca>
To: FG@hotmail.com <FG@hotmail.com>
Date: Wednesday, January 20, 1999 9:47 AM
Subject: Re: Antinomies - Frodo
>Greetings, Frederick.
> If you are well, it is well.
> This is just a short not to let you know that TRB is being picked
>up on FreeNet here.
> May the future exceed your highest hopes.
> All the Best,
> Michael
>
>
>
>"FG" (FG@hotmail.com) writes:
>> Frodo:
>> "But I have been too deeply hurt, Sam. I tried to save the Shire,
>> and it has been saved, but not for me. It must often be so, Sam,
>> when things are in danger; some one has to give them up, lose
>> them, so that others may keep them. But you are my heir...."
>> J.R.R. Tolkien
>>
>> FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
>> https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
>> alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>--
>"My name's McKenny, Mike McKenny, Warrant Officer, Solar Guard."
> (Tom Corbett #1 STAND BY FOR MARS p2)
>
>
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 1999 7:51 PM
To: Juan Cole
Subject: Also....
Juan,
Let me add again that Maneck is still trying to
get herself appointed, as I've mentioned, on AOL as
the replacement for Mark Foster who disappeared
more than several months ago. AOL has over 14
MILLION subscribers, and a lot of them have to check
in on the Bahai Forums since the Faith is listed on the
main menus along with Xianity, Judaism, etc. There
was a hugh influx in August onto alt.religion.bahai when
I subscribed to AOL and a lot of AOL people voted YES
this time around.
There are no URLs for newsgroups. Usenet is a
separate system from the Web. Www.dejanews.com is
the major archive for it; everything else is partial, e.g.,
www.reference.com.
Hope you persevere and stick around, Juan. You're needed.
After two years of constant warfare, pretty much alone, I'm
trying to phase myself out....
Fred
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, January 21, 1999 7:57 AM
To: jrcole@umich.edu
Subject: Netscape
Juan,
Okay, then, you're using Netscape. Click on Options at the
top of the screen; then Mail and News Preferences; Servers;
News (NNTP) Server is where the name of the U of M news
server or whatever one you're using goes. Mine is
news.newsguy.com
News RC Directory there should be a path on your
hard drive for saving to:
d:\netscape\news
Click OK
Your menus might be slightly different with the
version of Netscape you're using but essentially
the same most likely.
Click on File; Add Newsgroup; enter talk.religion.bahai
and see what happens. You may have to download the list
of new newsgroups in order to find it since the old one
won't have it.
Ask a tech person at U of M what the name of the
newsreader is. There must be one people are using there
somewhere.
Good luck!
Fred
--
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, January 21, 1999 8:17 AM
Subject: Pointers announcing talk.religion.bahai sent
A pointer has been sent to all of the newsgroups listed
in the RFD and CFV, under Distribution, announcing
talk.religion.bahai.
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, January 21, 1999 8:28 AM
Subject: Antinomies - Czeslaw Milosz
"It appears that my oeuvre is Christian and even (practically)
irreproachable according to the criteria of Catholic theology.
I am not so sure, though I like to hear this. Certainly, it stands
out against the background of twentieth century poetry, also
Polish poetry, which is agnostic or atheist. Yet the religious
content of my poems is not the result of design by a believer;
it grew out of my doubts, turmoil, and despair, as they
searched for a form. If not for a strong heretical seasoning,
the religious content would not have been there. Thus, my
resistance to being squeezed into the rubric of "Catholic
poet" was well founded."
Czeslaw Milosz, Road-side Dog
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, January 21, 1999 8:31 AM
To: Juan Cole
Subject: Re: Maneck again; trb now available
>Until then, I personally am stuck with DejaNews for it; I haven't found it
>a problem.
You have too many important things to do with your time....
Netscape will make posting much easier and faster. Don't give
up on it though it may take some effort to get it correctly
configured. Work on it for a while and then let me know if you
can't get it connected.
Fred
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, January 21, 1999 9:45 AM
To: Juan Cole
Subject: Re: Maneck again; trb now available
>Netscape's Collabra still does not find TRB among new lists quite yet.
A thought: Explain to me what Collabra is - a software version of
Netscape or a newgroup service on its website? If the later, you
may have to ask the webmaster to add it to the list of available
newsgroups. See below:
FYI
From: D E Siegel <desiegel@aol.com>
Subject: Re: RESULT: talk.religion.bahai passes 218:63
Date: Wednesday, January 13, 1999 6:59 PM
sharaf@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>What happens now?
>
>How is the new newsgroup promulgated?
Sometime shortly after the end of the 5-day discussion period, David
Lawerence
will send out the newgroup msg. He will repeat it after 1 week and 1 month.
Many ISPs will automatically ad the group based on this msg. Some will not.
If your ISP doesn't have the group shortly, I suggest that you ask the
newsmaster there to add it (Try news@isp.net, or newsmaster@isp.net) Ask
politely. Include the msg ID of the results posting, and of the newgroup
msg.
Good luck.
----------
From: Island Business Center (Bill Hyman)[SMTP:billh@samoatelco.com]
Sent: Friday, January 22, 1999 5:12 PM
To: mods
Cc: FG@hotmail.com; fig99a@aol.com; frodo@teleport.com; eld4c@virginia.edu
Subject: Re: talk.religion.bahai passed & now available on Usenet
gnox@vianet.on.ca
, Oreocat@etinternet.net
, gata@aol.com
, geof@vortex.is
,
glenda@smithville.net
, gdicks@UVic.CA
, slipstick@photobooks.com
,
thehans@iol.ie
, ctaylor@nque.com
, HellmannPete@pra-ww.com
,
Herbigjoe@aol.com
, heroinmyiz@aol.com
, howard_perkins@hotmail.com
,
notme@nothere.net
, ak777@extra.lafn.org
, mosseler@onlink.net
,
jeffb716@aol.com
, bsolka@fls.infi.net
, Jet@linetap.com
,
jhonp@bellatlantic.net
, millington@on.aibn.com
, joanymom@aol.com
,
jcornell@lightspeed.net
, johnb@ipa.net
, jondavey@bconnex.net
,
jjozsa@webtv.net
, vj.mehrabi@zetnet.co.uk
Mime-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Mr. Glaysher decided, on his own, not to submit to srb when his signature
was truncated for containing a web-site address which had pointers to CB
material. I had the privilege of truncated that first signature (after
consultation with the other moderators). He accused me in other forums of
forgery. It was mainly due to him that the moderators decided not to allow
signatures to have more than the name and e-mail address. Mr. Glaysher has
been able to post to srb at any time he so desired as long as he kept within
our charter and current policy. This is still the case.
Bill Hyman
co-moderator
soc.religion.bahai
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: FG [SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
>> Sent: Friday, January 22, 1999 5:42 AM
>> To: FG@hotmail.com
>> Cc: fig99a@aol.com; frodo@teleport.com; eld4c@virginia.edu;
>> gnox@vianet.on.ca; Oreocat@etinternet.net; gata@aol.com; geof@vortex.is;
>> glenda@smithville.net; gdicks@UVic.CA; slipstick@photobooks.com;
>> thehans@iol.ie; ctaylor@nque.com; HellmannPete@pra-ww.com;
>> Herbigjoe@aol.com; heroinmyiz@aol.com; howard_perkins@hotmail.com;
>> notme@nothere.net; ak777@extra.lafn.org; mosseler@onlink.net;
>> jeffb716@aol.com; bsolka@fls.infi.net; Jet@linetap.com;
>> jhonp@bellatlantic.net; millington@on.aibn.com; joanymom@aol.com;
>> jcornell@lightspeed.net; johnb@ipa.net; jondavey@bconnex.net;
>> jjozsa@webtv.net; vj.mehrabi@zetnet.co.uk
>> Subject: talk.religion.bahai passed & now available on Usenet
>>
>> I am emailing you because the "moderator" of soc.religion.bahai
>> has banned any posts from me since May of last year.
>> https://members.tripod.com/~FG/srb23.htm
>>
>> Talk.religion.bahai has now passed a Usenet interest poll and
>> is available. Some people may have to reset or redownload the
>> list of newsgroups on their news service in order to receive
>> it. Others may have to request their ISP add it.
>>
>> It is already available on www.newsguy.com, www.dejanews.com,
>> AOL, and elsewhere.
>>
>> --
>> FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
>> https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
>> alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: Manley, Timothy/CVO[SMTP:tmanley@CH2M.com]
Sent: Friday, January 22, 1999 11:03 AM
To: FG
Subject: RE: talk.religion.bahai passed & now available on Usenet
Fred....you and I have talked about this and I've talked to the Moderators @
soc.religion.bahai as well. But I see that this is your torch, either I'm
amazed that in this world you can't find better issues to spend your efforts
on that not helping Baha'is have access to CBs.
To reiterate what I thought was a made point:
1. Your signature provides links to groups that are frequented and
supported by Covenant Breakers.
2. SRB will post your messages if you remove those links.
3. You won't remove those links, SRB has no problem with anything you say,
they just don't want links to CB sites.
4. If you are a Baha'i, and you read the writings, then you should know
that Baha'u'llah wishes us all to eschew the ungodly. Those that have been
declared Covenant Breakers are pretty much the definition of this category.
I don't care if their case is made strongly or not, or if you think they've
been wrongly 'accused' or not. The choice of association is yours, the
choice of declaring one a Covenant Breaker is not. If you become a Baha'i
you are agreeing to certain principals and certain restrictions. If you are
unwilling to be a Baha'i then don't, there is nothing forcing you.
What is my opinion on this?
Why I agree with your belief on freedom and the freedom of speech, I think
your efforts are misplaced. From the communications I've had with you I
think your perception of the Faith and supposed suppression in the Faith is
warped. You can feel any way you wish, you can do anything you wish. SRB
is a MODERATED newsgroup and as such reserves the right to not allow any
posts that they see fit, just as any other moderated newsgroup, just as I
moderate the mail-lists that I administrate. Move onto something else.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: FG [SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
> Sent: Friday, January 22, 1999 2:43 AM
> To: FG@hotmail.com
> Cc: jet@linetap.com; jwiegley@inprise.com; orion@alaska.net;
> judyojudy@aol.com; jules.joubert@tip.nl; jules@webaxs.net;
> juliab@clear.net.nz; K0MPUTER@WORLDNET.ATT.NET; kjherman@RT66.com;
> qadr@sympatico.ca; kathy@cati.org; BNDATTIE@inco.com.lb;
> compx2k@javanet.com; Sharna@tm.net.my; lduper@aol.com;
> lib.mike@mailexcite.com; lindax@edgenet.net; lindaet@netidea.com;
> knight@hrfn.net; lmering@aol.com; LSchu23519@aol.com; Lspri80202@aol.com;
> sparrow9@flash.net; mlut@u.washington.edu; mac0000013@aol.com;
> tmanley@CH2M.com; marco@kidprov.com; m.mcdowell@bigfoot.com;
> martydor@prodigy.net; mpower@uio.telconet.net; Merlin98@webtv.net;
> mbacarter@aol.com; mclark@tpgi.com.au; mehyar22@siol.net
> Subject: talk.religion.bahai passed & now available on Usenet
>
> I am emailing you because the "moderator" of soc.religion.bahai
> has banned any posts from me since May of last year.
> https://members.tripod.com/~FG/srb23.htm
>
> Talk.religion.bahai has now passed a Usenet interest poll and
> is available. Some people may have to reset or redownload the
> list of newsgroups on their news service in order to receive
> it. Others may have to request their ISP add it.
>
> It is already available on www.newsguy.com, www.dejanews.com,
> AOL, and elsewhere.
>
>
> --
> FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
> https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
> alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: Dr. Jai Maharaj[SMTP:jai@mantra.com]
Sent: Friday, January 22, 1999 9:09 PM
To: FG
Subject: RE: talk.religion.bahai passed & now available on Usenet
Greetings:
Censorship must be eradicated.
It is strongly recommended that all posts appearing in the
moderated newsgroup soc.religion.bahai be downloaded
and then posted in the unmoderated talk.religion.bahai
so that they can be discussed freely.
In freedom,
Jai Maharaj
jai@mantra.com
https://www.flex.com/~jai
Om Shanti
> -----Original Message-----
> From: FG [mailto:FG@hotmail.com]
> Date: Friday, January 22, 1999
> To: FG@hotmail.com
> Cc: bhhxx@yahoo.com; camm@enhanced.com; captcck@my-dejanews.com;
> cbrehmer@northlink.com; Carol_Bowie@mindlink.bc.ca; ehudgens@ufl.edu;
> cch19@aol.com; cecilia.lind@swipnet.se; Chainwhl@aol.com;
> lips@ihug.co.nz; ChessHazlett@msn.com; sevdy@webtv.net;
> cNOSPAMkoller@worldnet.att.net; cafugate@worldnet.att.net;
> curtis@leaco.net; dp10006@cam.ac.uk; djensen@kaweah.com;
> grolin@mip.ou.dk; nabil@tm.net.my; Amicus@webtv.net;
> dseagraves@worldnet.att.net; forthedean@yahoo.com;
> dennisrt@ix.netcom.com; markite@gorge.net; jai@mantra.com;
> dsaly33635@aol.com; sticking@wdg.mot.com; emaguire@nospam.rutgers.edu;
> ethnomtrx@aol.com; faithc@hotmail.com; Felixthecatsays@hotmail.com
> Subject: talk.religion.bahai passed & now available on Usenet
>
>
> I am emailing you because the "moderator" of soc.religion.bahai
> has banned any posts from me since May of last year.
> https://members.tripod.com/~FG/srb23.htm
>
> Talk.religion.bahai has now passed a Usenet interest poll and
> is available. Some people may have to reset or redownload the
> list of newsgroups on their news service in order to receive
> it. Others may have to request their ISP add it.
>
> It is already available on www.newsguy.com, www.dejanews.com,
> AOL, and elsewhere.
>
> --
> FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
> https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
> alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
>
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Friday, January 22, 1999 6:38 AM
To: FG@hotmail.com
Cc: ae.rose@sympatico.ca; Abeatle@aol.com; agrove1756@aol.com; hodgfran@islands.vi; ab@iws.net.au; Angefly27@aol.com; afurlong@cs.mun.ca; annieruth@aol.com; anyela0000@aol.com; aruban4942@aol.com; arubangura@aol.com; arunm@qualcomm.com; Arved@my-dejanews.com; news@chal.demon.co.uk; abowden@caribe.net; avicenna9@aol.com; baclem@tri-lakesonline.net; b.mclellan@auckland.ac.nz; barefoot@borg.com; bberger@ix.netcom.com; BARRYW9@prodigy.net; benlafr@aol.com; wpike@doitnow.com; bwood.is.not@maine.rr.com; blinlee@aol.com; bobcharnes@aol.com; bvonhof@completebbs.com; aull@ll.mit.edu
Subject: talk.religion.bahai passed & now available on Usenet
I am emailing you because the "moderator" of soc.religion.bahai has
banned any posts from me since May of last year.
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/srb23.htm
Talk.religion.bahai has now passed a Usenet interest poll and
is available. Some people may have to reset or redownload the
list of newsgroups on their news service in order to receive
it. Others may have to request their ISP add it.
It is already available on www.newsguy.com, www.dejanews.com,
AOL, and elsewhere.
--
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Friday, January 22, 1999 6:40 AM
To: FG@hotmail.com
Cc: bhhxx@yahoo.com; camm@enhanced.com; captcck@my-dejanews.com; cbrehmer@northlink.com; Carol_Bowie@mindlink.bc.ca; ehudgens@ufl.edu; cch19@aol.com; cecilia.lind@swipnet.se; Chainwhl@aol.com; lips@ihug.co.nz; ChessHazlett@msn.com; sevdy@webtv.net; cNOSPAMkoller@worldnet.att.net; cafugate@worldnet.att.net; curtis@leaco.net; dp10006@cam.ac.uk; djensen@kaweah.com; grolin@mip.ou.dk; nabil@tm.net.my; Amicus@webtv.net; dseagraves@worldnet.att.net; forthedean@yahoo.com; dennisrt@ix.netcom.com; markite@gorge.net; jai@mantra.com; dsaly33635@aol.com; sticking@wdg.mot.com; emaguire@nospam.rutgers.edu; ethnomtrx@aol.com; faithc@hotmail.com; Felixthecatsays@hotmail.com
Subject: talk.religion.bahai passed & now available on Usenet
I am emailing you because the "moderator" of soc.religion.bahai
has banned any posts from me since May of last year.
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/srb23.htm
Talk.religion.bahai has now passed a Usenet interest poll and
is available. Some people may have to reset or redownload the
list of newsgroups on their news service in order to receive
it. Others may have to request their ISP add it.
It is already available on www.newsguy.com, www.dejanews.com,
AOL, and elsewhere.
--
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Friday, January 22, 1999 6:42 AM
To: FG@hotmail.com
Cc: fig99a@aol.com; frodo@teleport.com; eld4c@virginia.edu; gnox@vianet.on.ca; Oreocat@etinternet.net; gata@aol.com; geof@vortex.is; glenda@smithville.net; gdicks@UVic.CA; slipstick@photobooks.com; thehans@iol.ie; ctaylor@nque.com; HellmannPete@pra-ww.com; Herbigjoe@aol.com; heroinmyiz@aol.com; howard_perkins@hotmail.com; notme@nothere.net; ak777@extra.lafn.org; mosseler@onlink.net; jeffb716@aol.com; bsolka@fls.infi.net; Jet@linetap.com; jhonp@bellatlantic.net; millington@on.aibn.com; joanymom@aol.com; jcornell@lightspeed.net; johnb@ipa.net; jondavey@bconnex.net; jjozsa@webtv.net; vj.mehrabi@zetnet.co.uk
Subject: talk.religion.bahai passed & now available on Usenet
I am emailing you because the "moderator" of soc.religion.bahai
has banned any posts from me since May of last year.
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/srb23.htm
Talk.religion.bahai has now passed a Usenet interest poll and
is available. Some people may have to reset or redownload the
list of newsgroups on their news service in order to receive
it. Others may have to request their ISP add it.
It is already available on www.newsguy.com, www.dejanews.com,
AOL, and elsewhere.
--
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Friday, January 22, 1999 6:43 AM
To: FG@hotmail.com
Cc: jet@linetap.com; jwiegley@inprise.com; orion@alaska.net; judyojudy@aol.com; jules.joubert@tip.nl; jules@webaxs.net; juliab@clear.net.nz; K0MPUTER@WORLDNET.ATT.NET; kjherman@RT66.com; qadr@sympatico.ca; kathy@cati.org; BNDATTIE@inco.com.lb; compx2k@javanet.com; Sharna@tm.net.my; lduper@aol.com; lib.mike@mailexcite.com; lindax@edgenet.net; lindaet@netidea.com; knight@hrfn.net; lmering@aol.com; LSchu23519@aol.com; Lspri80202@aol.com; sparrow9@flash.net; mlut@u.washington.edu; mac0000013@aol.com; tmanley@CH2M.com; marco@kidprov.com; m.mcdowell@bigfoot.com; martydor@prodigy.net; mpower@uio.telconet.net; Merlin98@webtv.net; mbacarter@aol.com; mclark@tpgi.com.au; mehyar22@siol.net
Subject: talk.religion.bahai passed & now available on Usenet
I am emailing you because the "moderator" of soc.religion.bahai
has banned any posts from me since May of last year.
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/srb23.htm
Talk.religion.bahai has now passed a Usenet interest poll and
is available. Some people may have to reset or redownload the
list of newsgroups on their news service in order to receive
it. Others may have to request their ISP add it.
It is already available on www.newsguy.com, www.dejanews.com,
AOL, and elsewhere.
--
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Friday, January 22, 1999 6:44 AM
To: FG@hotmail.com
Cc: lomike@freeyellow.com; mikebanister@mindspring.com; mikejb@ma.ultranet.com; MHeister@linkline.com; ak835@cleveland.Freenet.Edu; mrranjba@expert.cc.purdue.edu; majaj.bell@sk.sympatico.ca; deanmoriarty@usa.net; MikeGhouse@aol.com; moin@qatar.net.qa; Mona.M.Sana@aexp.com; mspittal@isomedia.com; mystiykal@aol.com; nehoyle@mindlink.bc.ca; nhough@innocon.com; nbatra@rigel.oac.uci.edu; zeke22@webtv.net; OdessJ@aol.com; freyd@uni-muenster.de; omnist@my-dejanews.com; PConway@NetComUK.Co.UK; paul@scorpionics.demon.co.uk; peiss@dialup.nacamar.de; PHowardell@aol.com; plunkettm@aol.com; provi@snet.net; r.g.boomers@centuryinter.net; r.woodlock@bigfoot.com; ramr@indigo.ie; rdsteph@ibm.net
Subject: talk.religion.bahai passed & now available on Usenet
I am emailing you because the "moderator" of soc.religion.bahai
has banned any posts from me since May of last year.
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/srb23.htm
Talk.religion.bahai has now passed a Usenet interest poll and
is available. Some people may have to reset or redownload the
list of newsgroups on their news service in order to receive
it. Others may have to request their ISP add it.
It is already available on www.newsguy.com, www.dejanews.com,
AOL, and elsewhere.
--
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Friday, January 22, 1999 6:46 AM
To: FG@hotmail.com
Cc: RBCCRC@bellatlantic.net; rfisher@bo.net; rscrawford@bigfoot.com.spamblock; rick@bounty.bcca.org; rj519@earthlink.net; rmckin6046@aol.com; bobpease@concentric.net; glad-tidings@erols.com; roberta@olypen.com; robertnik@aol.com; neyman@cmd.com; ROHANIART@aol.com; landie@concentric.net; rpsmith@earthlink.net; hedayati@iglobal.net; sageflower@aol.com; Salar@pogo.isys.net; finagain@bu.edu; sandilee@cyberhighway.net; santanna@stc.com.br; see_below@ibm.net; scott_mckee@bc.sympatico.ca; softqual@mindspring.com; seeker@indiana.edu; serge@primenet.com; shakti3@aol.com; sheddey@aol.com; shohreh9@macau.ctm.net; pin00987@ping.be; simon.mawhinney@hertford.ox.ac.uk
Subject: talk.religion.bahai passed & now available on Usenet
I am emailing you because the "moderator" of soc.religion.bahai
has banned any posts from me since May of last year.
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/srb23.htm
Talk.religion.bahai has now passed a Usenet interest poll and
is available. Some people may have to reset or redownload the
list of newsgroups on their news service in order to receive
it. Others may have to request their ISP add it.
It is already available on www.newsguy.com, www.dejanews.com,
AOL, and elsewhere.
--
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Friday, January 22, 1999 6:47 AM
To: FG@hotmail.com
Cc: soheila1@airmail.net; stampcathy@aol.com; Sunday122@aol.com; gerstner@bart.nl; darlene@compworldnet.com; teresareitinger@worldnet.att.net; thamm40820@aol.com; tayallan@tm.net.my; casey@smart.net.au; tmanley@proaxis.com; todaysmews@aol.com; tricia@glonet.co.nz; vengel@webtv.net; verbus@hotmail.com; vinsonjamir@usa.net; warted1@aol.com; DR_DE@panam.edu; wnthompson@aol.com; writefast@aol.com; WRLDpaul@aol.com; wrldunity9@aol.com; wscott1995@aol.com
Subject: talk.religion.bahai passed & now available on Usenet
I am emailing you because the "moderator" of soc.religion.bahai
has banned any posts from me since May of last year.
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/srb23.htm
Talk.religion.bahai has now passed a Usenet interest poll and
is available. Some people may have to reset or redownload the
list of newsgroups on their news service in order to receive
it. Others may have to request their ISP add it.
It is already available on www.newsguy.com, www.dejanews.com,
AOL, and elsewhere.
--
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: Diana Gale Kite[SMTP:markite@gorge.net]
Sent: Friday, January 22, 1999 2:04 PM
To: FG
Subject: Re: talk.religion.bahai passed & now available on Usenet
Frederick,
Where have I seen your name before? I am
trying to remember the context...were you involved
in a thread of posts concerning covenant breaking
and a CB web-site a while back???
thanks,
di
FG wrote:
> I am emailing you because the "moderator" of soc.religion.bahai
> has banned any posts from me since May of last year.
> https://members.tripod.com/~FG/srb23.htm
>
> Talk.religion.bahai has now passed a Usenet interest poll and
> is available. Some people may have to reset or redownload the
> list of newsgroups on their news service in order to receive
> it. Others may have to request their ISP add it.
>
> It is already available on www.newsguy.com, www.dejanews.com,
> AOL, and elsewhere.
>
> --
> FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
> https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
> alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Friday, January 22, 1999 6:56 AM
Subject: 200+ srb posters notified of talk.religion.bahai (Re: Pointers announcing talk.religion.bahai sent)
I've sent the following message to over 200 people who have
posted to soc.religion.bahai since last June:
I am emailing you because the "moderator" of soc.religion.bahai
has banned any posts from me since May of last year.
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/srb23.htm
Talk.religion.bahai has now passed a Usenet interest poll and
is available. Some people may have to reset or redownload the
list of newsgroups on their news service in order to receive
it. Others may have to request their ISP add it.
It is already available on www.newsguy.com, www.dejanews.com,
AOL, and elsewhere.
--
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Friday, January 22, 1999 7:51 AM
Subject: Annotated NO voters - 3rd interest poll
Searching www.dejanews.com for a history of posting to Usenet, the
following results are obtained:
Voted NO
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
B=Bahai
N=no hits on www.dejanews.com or fewer than a recent dozen
T=techie
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
22 Bahais voted NO (only 27 YES)
10 Techies
26 or more NO hits or so very few as to raise the question of
the legitimacy of the email address.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
mansouri#one.net.au Shahab Mansouri N
dany.steyaert#ping.be Dany Steyaert T
carol_bowie#mindlink.bc.ca David Bowie B
towfiq#401kforum.com Mark Towfiq B
Aerfani#aol.com Abbas Erfani B
Hlpflhanna#aol.com Debbie Jenkins B
Mac0000013#aol.com Dennis M. McDonnell B
Starlet001#aol.com Katherine Mayerovitch N
kimdv#best.com Kim DeVaughn T
stainles#bga.com Dwight Brown T
david.ritscher#bigfoot.com David Ritscher N
r.woodlock#bigfoot.com Rachel Butson B
lcs#zk3.dec.com Larry Smith games
camm#enhanced.com Camm Maguire T
caryenochr#enochsvision.comEnoch's Vision Cary Enoch N
wcol#erols.com William Collins B
tom-hodges#geocities.com Tom Hodges B
aromatica45#hotmail.com Victoria Williams N
bearone1#hotmail.com Gary Rosenbaum N
fazlollahi#hotmail.com Ahmad Fazlollahi N
rachel_t#hotmail.com Theresa McClendon N
screamingb#hotmail.com Screaming Banshee N
swatchking#hotmail.com Fred Tague N
jjam#spica.hpl.hp.com Jim Jam N
nightbrd#humboldt1.com Douglas Myers B
shohre#itis.com Shohreh Mansouri B
bruce.limber#juno.com Bruce D. Limber B
lpolk01#juno.com Linda L Polk B
palmtop#mailtag.com Bonnie Blanford N
djull#mindspring.com David Jull N
slr1bpz#mindspring.com George McCoy T
bfwkendo#netvigator.com Brian Walker B
chriseb#nortelnetworks.com Chris Ebenezer N
dc#panix.com David W. Crawford T
persia#persia.com Robert Moldenhauer B
Sandy-Allan#dial.pipex.com Sandy Allan B
billh#samoatelco.com Bill Hyman B
doug.obrien#the-spa.com Doug O'Brien travel
manialip#wowmail.com Kate Sparks N
francis_uy#yahoo.com F Uy T
Ekkehard.Uthke#gmx.de Ekkehard Uthke T
naddy#mips.rhein-neckar.de Christian Weisgerber T
cnelson#calpoly.edu Craig Nelson N
aull#ll.mit.edu Brian Aull N
rick#bcm.tmc.edu Richard H. Miller N
kohli#mail.ameritel.net Pat Kohli B
helenko#bellsouth.net Helen Oney a.fan. happyman
cybrmage#dave-world.net Bud Polk B
rogerb#foxinternet.net Roger Borseth B
ellis#ftel.net Rick Ellis T
vpdura#hiwaay.net Vic Dura N
Scarecro#ime.net Tim Griffin N
jcornell#lightspeed.net John B. Cornell N
verbrugh#pionet.net Albert Verbrugh B
okoboji#prodigy.net Loriann=20 B
mehyar22#siol.net Mehyar Badii-Azandahi N
scooter#taranaki.ac.nz Scooter B
NUFAITH#wcnet.org Dennis Rule N
tr8770#bristol.ac.uk Tom Richards N
srm103#york.ac.uk Simon Mawhinney N
merlin#A470.demon.co.uk Darren Wyn Rees N
Graham#fragrant.demon.co.uk Graham Sorenson B
leili#Justice.Medford.MA.US Leili Towfigh N
----------------------------------------------------------------------
A few comments:
Mark Towfiq, a member of the "BCCA," the Bahai
Computer and Communication Association, the far
right wing of the Universal House of Justice online,
campaigned against the 1st proposal for talk.religion.bahai:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/Towfiq.htm
BCCA at https://members.tripod.com/~FG/BCCA.txt
Bill Hyman vowed as early as August 1997 to censor me
and is a notorious "moderator" of soc.religion.bahai:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/srb29.htm
Albert Verbrugh is also a "moderator" of soc.religion.bahai;
William Collins is a Bahai "administrator" in South Africa.
Robert Moldenhauer, Graham Sorenson, and Tom Hodges are
extremely rigid minds whose fanatical outpourings may be read
in my BCCA archive opposing the 2nd interest poll:
https://209.185.180.230/~FG/Bahai-Discuss-Archive.txt
This document available in a conveniently highlighted version:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/NOvoters3rd.htm
Some might wish to compare this to the Annotated NO voters
for the 2nd interest poll:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/NOvoters.htm
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Friday, January 22, 1999 3:04 PM
To: Dr. Jai Maharaj
Subject: Re: talk.religion.bahai passed & now available on Usenet
Dr. Maharaj:
Thanks for responding. Your suggestion sounds like
a good idea. Would you be willing to repost them?
I'm afraid I'm very busy with talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and the AOL Bahai Message Boards.
If you can regularly or once in a while, you might
mark each subject as "SRB: " so people can
distinguish them from those originally posted to
talk.religion.bahai.
Thanks again.
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
-----Original Message-----
From: Dr. Jai Maharaj <jai@mantra.com>
To: FG <FG@hotmail.com>
Date: Friday, January 22, 1999 4:10 AM
Subject: RE: talk.religion.bahai passed & now available on Usenet
>Greetings:
>
>Censorship must be eradicated.
>It is strongly recommended that all posts appearing in the
>moderated newsgroup soc.religion.bahai be downloaded
>and then posted in the unmoderated talk.religion.bahai
>so that they can be discussed freely.
>
>In freedom,
>
>Jai Maharaj
>jai@mantra.com
>https://www.flex.com/~jai
>Om Shanti
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: FG [mailto:FG@hotmail.com]
>> Date: Friday, January 22, 1999
>> To: FG@hotmail.com
>> Cc: bhhxx@yahoo.com; camm@enhanced.com; captcck@my-dejanews.com;
>> cbrehmer@northlink.com; Carol_Bowie@mindlink.bc.ca; ehudgens@ufl.edu;
>> cch19@aol.com; cecilia.lind@swipnet.se; Chainwhl@aol.com;
>> lips@ihug.co.nz; ChessHazlett@msn.com; sevdy@webtv.net;
>> cNOSPAMkoller@worldnet.att.net; cafugate@worldnet.att.net;
>> curtis@leaco.net; dp10006@cam.ac.uk; djensen@kaweah.com;
>> grolin@mip.ou.dk; nabil@tm.net.my; Amicus@webtv.net;
>> dseagraves@worldnet.att.net; forthedean@yahoo.com;
>> dennisrt@ix.netcom.com; markite@gorge.net; jai@mantra.com;
>> dsaly33635@aol.com; sticking@wdg.mot.com; emaguire@nospam.rutgers.edu;
>> ethnomtrx@aol.com; faithc@hotmail.com; Felixthecatsays@hotmail.com
>> Subject: talk.religion.bahai passed & now available on Usenet
>>
>>
>> I am emailing you because the "moderator" of soc.religion.bahai
>> has banned any posts from me since May of last year.
>> https://members.tripod.com/~FG/srb23.htm
>>
>> Talk.religion.bahai has now passed a Usenet interest poll and
>> is available. Some people may have to reset or redownload the
>> list of newsgroups on their news service in order to receive
>> it. Others may have to request their ISP add it.
>>
>> It is already available on www.newsguy.com, www.dejanews.com,
>> AOL, and elsewhere.
>>
>> --
>> FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
>> https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
>> alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
>>
>
----------
From: Star Saffa[SMTP:starjo@arach.net.au]
Sent: Saturday, January 23, 1999 6:19 AM
To: FG@hotmail.com
Subject: Deja News
Hi Fred - Can you please explain to me on Deja News for Talk.Religion. Bahai why the amount of postings keeps decreasing. When I first got on there were 52 and today there are only 19 - what happens to the rest? Thanx
<starjo@arach.net.au>
Love is the bonding force of the Universe -
----------
From: also write to[SMTP:nbatra@ea.oac.uci.edu]
Sent: Saturday, January 23, 1999 2:30 AM
To: FG
Cc: lomike@freeyellow.com; mikebanister@mindspring.com; mikejb@ma.ultranet.com; MHeister@linkline.com; ak835@cleveland.Freenet.Edu; mrranjba@expert.cc.purdue.edu; majaj.bell@sk.sympatico.ca; deanmoriarty@usa.net; MikeGhouse@aol.com; moin@qatar.net.qa; Mona.M.Sana@aexp.com; mspittal@isomedia.com; mystiykal@aol.com; nehoyle@mindlink.bc.ca; nhough@innocon.com; nbatra@ea.oac.uci.edu; zeke22@webtv.net; OdessJ@aol.com; freyd@uni-muenster.de; omnist@my-dejanews.com; PConway@NetComUK.Co.UK; paul@scorpionics.demon.co.uk; peiss@dialup.nacamar.de; PHowardell@aol.com; plunkettm@aol.com; provi@snet.net; r.g.boomers@centuryinter.net; r.woodlock@bigfoot.com; ramr@indigo.ie; rdsteph@ibm.net
Subject: Re: talk.religion.bahai passed & now available on Usenet
Mr. Glaysher, why did the moderator ban you from posting? I don't have the
Web.
----------
From: Dr. Jai Maharaj[SMTP:jai@mantra.com]
Sent: Saturday, January 23, 1999 8:27 PM
To: FG
Subject: RE: talk.religion.bahai passed & now available on Usenet
Greetings:
Certainly, I will, but please post an announcement
every few days on talk.religion.bahai that
particpants are invited to bring censored discussions
out into the open by cutting-and-pasting posts from
soc.religion.bahai into talk.religion.bahai and
thus starting unmoderated threads. This technique
works if several persons take this measure! It
evetually results in the moderated newsgroup dying down.
Best wishes,
Jai Maharaj
Om Shanti
> -----Original Message-----
> From: FG <FG@hotmail.com>
> Date: Friday, January 22, 1999
> To: Dr. Jai Maharaj
> Subject: Re: talk.religion.bahai passed & now available on Usenet
>
>
> Dr. Maharaj:
>
> Thanks for responding. Your suggestion sounds like
> a good idea. Would you be willing to repost them?
> I'm afraid I'm very busy with talk.religion.bahai,
> alt.religion.bahai, and the AOL Bahai Message Boards.
>
> If you can regularly or once in a while, you might
> mark each subject as "SRB: " so people can
> distinguish them from those originally posted to
> talk.religion.bahai.
>
> Thanks again.
>
> FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
> https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
> alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dr. Jai Maharaj <jai@mantra.com>
> To: FG <FG@hotmail.com>
> Date: Friday, January 22, 1999 4:10 AM
> Subject: RE: talk.religion.bahai passed & now available on Usenet
>
>
> >Greetings:
> >
> >Censorship must be eradicated.
> >It is strongly recommended that all posts appearing in the
> >moderated newsgroup soc.religion.bahai be downloaded
> >and then posted in the unmoderated talk.religion.bahai
> >so that they can be discussed freely.
> >
> >In freedom,
> >
> >Jai Maharaj
> >jai@mantra.com
> >https://www.flex.com/~jai
> >Om Shanti
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: FG [mailto:FG@hotmail.com]
> >> Date: Friday, January 22, 1999
> >> To: FG@hotmail.com
> >> Cc: bhhxx@yahoo.com; camm@enhanced.com; captcck@my-dejanews.com;
> >> cbrehmer@northlink.com; Carol_Bowie@mindlink.bc.ca; ehudgens@ufl.edu;
> >> cch19@aol.com; cecilia.lind@swipnet.se; Chainwhl@aol.com;
> >> lips@ihug.co.nz; ChessHazlett@msn.com; sevdy@webtv.net;
> >> cNOSPAMkoller@worldnet.att.net; cafugate@worldnet.att.net;
> >> curtis@leaco.net; dp10006@cam.ac.uk; djensen@kaweah.com;
> >> grolin@mip.ou.dk; nabil@tm.net.my; Amicus@webtv.net;
> >> dseagraves@worldnet.att.net; forthedean@yahoo.com;
> >> dennisrt@ix.netcom.com; markite@gorge.net; jai@mantra.com;
> >> dsaly33635@aol.com; sticking@wdg.mot.com; emaguire@nospam.rutgers.edu;
> >> ethnomtrx@aol.com; faithc@hotmail.com; Felixthecatsays@hotmail.com
> >> Subject: talk.religion.bahai passed & now available on Usenet
> >>
> >>
> >> I am emailing you because the "moderator" of soc.religion.bahai
> >> has banned any posts from me since May of last year.
> >> https://members.tripod.com/~FG/srb23.htm
> >>
> >> Talk.religion.bahai has now passed a Usenet interest poll and
> >> is available. Some people may have to reset or redownload the
> >> list of newsgroups on their news service in order to receive
> >> it. Others may have to request their ISP add it.
> >>
> >> It is already available on www.newsguy.com, www.dejanews.com,
> >> AOL, and elsewhere.
> >>
> >> --
> >> FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of
> Conscience:
> >> https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On
> talk.religion.bahai,
> >> alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
> >>
> >
>
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, January 23, 1999 9:37 AM
Subject: soc.religion.bahai - brief quotations
Robert J. Pease, December 5, 1998:
"I support your efforts to expose SRB as a fundamentalist group."
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/srb84.htm
Kent Johnson:
"It turns my stomach that they call themselves a Baha'i Group
while doing these things so obviously partisan and consciously
unjust."
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/srb61.htm
Ron House:
"I think the following is a clear case of malicious
rejection of an article by the worst of the moderators of
soc.religion.bahai."
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/srb53.htm
Timothy Mulligan:
"(Sigh) Fred, I'm beginning to think you're right about those
SRB moderators."
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/srb59.htm
RobertNik:
"these guys are pompous arseholes IMHO."
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/srb54.htm
Bruce Burrill:
"What are Baha'i afraid of?"
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/srb60.htm
Zuteflute:
"Frankly I could not see anything in the letter I wrote which
would prompt someone to ask whether or not I am a Baha'i."
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/srb50.htm
YU ZIR:
"But as an outsider, I can perhaps see the point Fred Glaysher
is making, and which point none of SRB's defenders seem to
address."
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/srb46.htm
Matthew Cromer:
"The current moderators regulate the contents--posting articles
which they agree with...."
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/srb47.htm
Kavosh Soltani, December 9, 1998:
"So many Bahais on these forums
have shown to be ready to forget logic and reason, ignore
clear evidence and Word of God, and come up with exactly the
same line of tired and inaccurate excuses and arguments to
justify their position, that it can not be a simple coincidence."
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/srb77.htm
Shakti3, December 4, 1998:
"Sorry to hear that you've been surpressed on srb. Your comments
were alway very "right on." Altho it does not surprise me one bit,
seeing the way these newsgroups operate."
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/Ex7.htm
Harold Shinsato:
"It seems like there is an oppression over the Baha'i Faith."
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/srb33.htm
Steve Tomljenovic, December 3, 1998:
"The moderators are a bit overzealous at times. Since all the
controversy started, it has gotten worse."
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/srb79.htm
Laeterna:
"To say I was flabberghasted at this type of "moderating" was
putting it mildly indeed."
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/censored2.htm
Guy Macon"
"Please explain which portion of the charter the following
post violates."
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/censored1.htm
Robin Peters:
"I think you're to be commended for your persistence in the
face of consistent censorship."
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/srb43.htm
jgoldberg:
"I refuse to post on soc.religion.bahai because of the arbitrary and
mean-spirited manner of censorship practiced by the moderators. "
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/srb57.htm
Ruletherod, November 17, 1998:
"Too much damage has already been done in the name and to
the name of Baha'u'llah by right-wing administrative bullies,
linear-thinking apologists, and doctrinaire-fundamentalists. You
can't just blame it all on the critics."
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/srb76.htm
Many other similar messages may be found on my web site under
soc.religion.bahai censorship.
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/srb.htm
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, January 23, 1999 9:43 AM
To: also write to
Subject: Re: talk.religion.bahai passed & now available on Usenet
From: Island Business Center (Bill Hyman) <billh@samoatelco.com>
To: FG@hotmail.com <FG@hotmail.com>
Cc: srb-mods@bcca.org <srb-mods@bcca.org>
Subject: FW: SRB censored 5-25-98
Date: Sunday, May 31, 1998 8:31 PM
Mr. Glaysher:
This submission will not be posted to srb as we do not accept cross posting.
I considered advertising maillist.com to the srb readership against our
charter as it has been posting CB material. Your web page address has
already been posted, and due to negative comments from srb readers I will
not be be posting it again.
All your submissions, which meet the standards of our charter will be
posted, but your advertising will not.
Was the real purpose of your submission to srb to advertise your e-mail
addresses, or to submit a quotation of Abdul-Baha? If the latter, your goal
was attained - so why are you complaining?
Bill Hyman
co-moderator
soc.religion.bahai
----------
From: "FG" <FG@hotmail.com>
To: "SRB" <bahai-faith@bcca.org>,"bahai-faith @ makelist.com"
<bahai-faith@makelist.com>,"talisman" <talisman@umich.edu>
Subject: Re: SRB censored 5-25-98
Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 08:27:25 -0400
Maryam Butson wrote in message <896225055.167484@kermit.netlink.com.au>...
>Hmmmm...I am generally *for* the SRB moderators, but even *I* can see this
>looks nothing LIKE a mere "personal note".
>
>Maryam
>
>>>As this appears to be a personal note I have not posted it to srb.
>
>
Here's another instance of srb censoring in a subtle way. I post this
to srb on the 18th. They only posted after I emailed them as I explain
in another current thread you might read here. What they finally
actually posted to srb clips my signature file, everything below
alt.religion.bahai. See the current version on srb for yourself. Please
note that while doing that the "moderator" added back in the
right arrow symbol, ">," concealing his changes from unsuspecting
readers of srb....
-----Original Message-----
From: FG <FG@hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai
Date: Monday, May 18, 1998 6:45 AM
Subject: Re: New site: "The Baha'i Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience"
>Roger Borseth wrote in message <"DRnaXC.A.mAG.lOvX1"@bounty.bcca.org>...
>>
>>
>>Say: True liberty consisteth....
>
>"These are effectual and sufficient proofs that the conscience of man is
>sacred and to be respected; and that liberty thereof produces widening
>of ideas, amendment of morals, improvement of conduct, disclosure of
>the secrets of the contingent world. Moreover, if interrogation of
>conscience, which is one of the private possessions of the heart and
>the soul, take place in this world, what further recompense remains for
>man in the court of divine justice at the day of general resurrection?
>Convictions and ideas are within the scope of the comprehension of the
>King of kings, not of kings; and soul and conscience are between the
>fingers of control of the Lord of hearts, not of [His] servants."
>
>Abdul-Baha, A Traveler's Narrative, 91.
>
>
>FG
>Usenet: alt.religion.bahai
>
>Listserv: bahai-faith@makelist.com
>List Archive & Subscription: https://www.findmail.com/listsaver/bahai-faith/
>Email subscription: bahai-faith-subscribe@makelist.com
>
>The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
> https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm
>
>
>
>
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Homepage
Bahai
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
---------------------------------------------------------------------------F
rom: Maryam Butson <maryam@netlink.com.au>
To: srb-mods@bcca.org <srb-mods@bcca.org>; billh@samoatelco.com
<billh@samoatelco.com>; FG@hotmail.com <FG@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: SRB censored 5-25-98
Date: Tuesday, June 02, 1998 11:05 AM
Hmmm I re-read this in another area - and whilst this whole thing may seem
rather petty - I can see where Fred is coming from (and believe me, anyone
who searches the archives will see that Fred and I have occasionally had our
"moments" - I am not his greatest fan (sorry Fred)). The thing that
concerns me is this:
>>Mr. Glaysher:
>>
>>This submission will not be posted to srb as we do not accept cross
>posting.
AFAIK I've cross-posted before and gotten away with it, I was not aware this
was a "rule". (Must admit Fred, sometimes it's a bit much to see the same
post on every newsgroup I try to read), but notwithstanding that, this seems
rather flimsy as I have seen SRB posters cross-post, and I've done it myself
from time to time.
I can understand rules against someone spamming every newsgroup under the
sun, but I don't think Fred has quite reached THAT level yet.
>>I considered advertising maillist.com to the srb readership against our
>>charter as it has been posting CB material.
Firstly, there is nothing in Fred's sig. file that mentions CB material. If
THAT were a genuine excuse all Baha'is should be banned from the internet
because CB material exists on it! The fact that on an open list CB material
*can* be posted is hardly a valid reason for snipping an entire sig. file
that merely mentions the list - *not* the CB material. One might as well
ban any header that says AOL because some CBers have AOL accounts.
Not to mention that this one is WAY out there for another reason. I've
never seen *other* SRB posters have their signature files snipped left right
and centre, not to mention that Fred's sig. file is hardly a huge
advertisement. Bill you are giving Fred fuel for his fire. I used to
think Fred was paranoid - now I am not so sure! Justice *is* the Best
Beloved of all things remember, regardless if it means you have to
occasionally allow Fred to post to SRB.
You may not like what Fred has to say, but purposefully snipping his
sig.file to try and make it as difficult as possible for people to *hear*
what he has to say, comes across at best, petty ... at worst, confirmation
of his accusations.
Anyway here is Fred's file:
FG
Usenet: alt.religion.bahai
Listserv: bahai-faith@makelist.com
List Archive & Subscription:
https://www.findmail.com/listsaver/bahai-faith/
Email subscription: bahai-faith-subscribe@makelist.com
The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm
Now lets look at some other SRB poster's sig. files:
Trisha Rainsford's:
TeeCee
TeeCee Publishing
P. O. Box 9110
Hamilton
New Zealand
Ph/Fax: 64-7-846-7484
email: tricia@glonet.co.nz
Graham Sorenson's (who happens to be a very good friend of mine - and I like
all his sig.files *G*)
https://www.fragrant.demon.co.uk/bahai.html -- https://www.bahai.org
https://www.baha.demon.co.uk -- https://www.onecountry.org
https://www.bcca.org/~glittle -- https://www.bcca.org/~cvoogt
"The Baha'is". A magazine format, Wonderful introduction to the Faith.
https://oneworld.wa.com/bahai/magazine/cover.html
and Chris Manvell's
Chris Manvell, Isle of Skye, Scotland.
Tel.:+44+(0)1471-822317--
Newsgroup readers: Please remove SPAMGUARD from address before e-mailing.
Verily, Jesus said: "Come ye after Me, and I will make you to become
fishers of men." In this day, however, We say: "Come ye after Me, that
We may make you to become quickeners of mankind." [Baha'u'llah]
For more info goto: <https://www.fragrant.demon.co.uk/bahai.html>
<https://www.miracles.win-uk.net/Bahai>, or <https://www.baha.demon.co.uk>
All of whom as much advertising as Fred.
>>Your web page address has
>>already been posted, and due to negative comments from srb readers I will
>>not be be posting it again.
I'd be interested in seeing what these complaints are. I must admit I find
it difficult to believe that SRB readers *specifically* objected to Fred
posting his signature file because they didn't like his web page.
>>
>>All your submissions, which meet the standards of our charter will be
>>posted, but your advertising will not.
>>
>>Was the real purpose of your submission to srb to advertise your e-mail
>>addresses, or to submit a quotation of Abdul-Baha? If the latter, your
>goal
>>was attained - so why are you complaining?
>>
I am starting to understand *why* Fred is paranoid.
>>Bill Hyman
>>co-moderator
>>soc.religion.bahai
For my two cents Bill, and I normally have a fairly high regard for SRB
moderation, the more you try and silence Fred, the more he will object,
struggle, and a larger issue will be made. If he really has nothing of
import to say - then air it and let it dissolve - this suppression only
feeds fuel to the fire and makes people like *me* sympathetic to what he has
to say about SRB.
Regards as always
Maryam
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Homepage
Bahai
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
-----
-----Original Message-----
From: also write to <nbatra@ea.oac.uci.edu>
To: FG <FG@hotmail.com>
Cc: lomike@freeyellow.com <lomike@freeyellow.com>;
mikebanister@mindspring.com <mikebanister@mindspring.com>;
mikejb@ma.ultranet.com <mikejb@ma.ultranet.com>; MHeister@linkline.com
<MHeister@linkline.com>; ak835@cleveland.Freenet.Edu
<ak835@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>; mrranjba@expert.cc.purdue.edu
<mrranjba@expert.cc.purdue.edu>; majaj.bell@sk.sympatico.ca
<majaj.bell@sk.sympatico.ca>; deanmoriarty@usa.net <deanmoriarty@usa.net>;
MikeGhouse@aol.com <MikeGhouse@aol.com>; moin@qatar.net.qa
<moin@qatar.net.qa>; Mona.M.Sana@aexp.com <Mona.M.Sana@aexp.com>;
mspittal@isomedia.com <mspittal@isomedia.com>; mystiykal@aol.com
<mystiykal@aol.com>; nehoyle@mindlink.bc.ca <nehoyle@mindlink.bc.ca>;
nhough@innocon.com <nhough@innocon.com>; nbatra@ea.oac.uci.edu
<nbatra@ea.oac.uci.edu>; zeke22@webtv.net <zeke22@webtv.net>; OdessJ@aol.com
<OdessJ@aol.com>; freyd@uni-muenster.de <freyd@uni-muenster.de>;
omnist@my-dejanews.com <omnist@my-dejanews.com>; PConway@NetComUK.Co.UK
<PConway@NetComUK.Co.UK>; paul@scorpionics.demon.co.uk
<paul@scorpionics.demon.co.uk>; peiss@dialup.nacamar.de
<peiss@dialup.nacamar.de>; PHowardell@aol.com <PHowardell@aol.com>;
plunkettm@aol.com <plunkettm@aol.com>; provi@snet.net <provi@snet.net>;
r.g.boomers@centuryinter.net <r.g.boomers@centuryinter.net>;
r.woodlock@bigfoot.com <r.woodlock@bigfoot.com>; ramr@indigo.ie
<ramr@indigo.ie>; rdsteph@ibm.net <rdsteph@ibm.net>
Date: Saturday, January 23, 1999 1:30 AM
Subject: Re: talk.religion.bahai passed & now available on Usenet
>Mr. Glaysher, why did the moderator ban you from posting? I don't have the
>Web.
>
>
>
>
>
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, January 23, 1999 9:47 AM
To: Star Saffa
Subject: Re: Deja News
No idea. They'll vary depending on the weather
and how you do the search....
-----Original Message-----
From: Star Saffa <starjo@arach.net.au>
To: FG@hotmail.com <FG@hotmail.com>
Date: Friday, January 22, 1999 9:13 PM
Subject: Deja News
Hi Fred - Can you please explain to me on Deja News for Talk.Religion. Bahai why the amount of postings keeps decreasing. When I first got on there were 52 and today there are only 19 - what happens to the rest? Thanx
<starjo@arach.net.au>
Love is the bonding force of the Universe -
----------
From: Angefly27@aol.com[SMTP:Angefly27@aol.com]
Sent: Saturday, January 23, 1999 10:52 PM
To: FG@hotmail.com
Subject: Re: talk.religion.bahai passed & now available on Usenet
I haven't been on that the other Bahai newsgroup in several months, and I only
read over the posts briefly when I was there. Why were you banned from
posting? Are you a Bahai? I'm not an LSA member or anything like that, but I
am a Bahai. I still have my card and I get my newspaper from National, at
least. There are some issues I'm trying to resolve in my mind, so I'm just
curious as to what happened on the newsgroup.
Sincerely,
Angela Shortt
----------
From: Barbara L McLellan[SMTP:b.mclellan@auckland.ac.nz]
Sent: Sunday, January 24, 1999 4:55 PM
To: FG
Subject: Re: talk.religion.bahai passed & now available on Usenet
Dear paranoid Freddie
I read all about the new discussion list on
soc.religion.bahai.
Why don't you check the list before sending out your
inaccurate emails?
Barbara
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, January 24, 1999 7:24 PM
Subject: Re: Exterminating the Poor
starjo8853@my-dejanews.com wrote in message
<78e47t$143$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
So
>while Baha'is are ignoring this fundamental principle the Pope is having
the
>courage to address it more honestly than we seem to presently be
>doing.......Can we all really afford 'spiritually' to stick our heads in
the
>sand?......Star*
While Baha'u'llah enjoined Bahais to hear "the midnight sighing of the
poor," I've never met too many AO types who really cared enough to give
them a second thought, especially the Iranians....
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, January 24, 1999 7:59 PM
Subject: Re: Speak Up, Softly
McKenny Michael wrote in message <787sba$74j@freenet-news.carleton.ca>...
> How eagerly I will read evidences that Baha'is, especially those in
>high office, are following the fundamental principles of the Faith, that
>they are a source of inspiration to everyone hoping that the future of
>the human species will include that open, tolerant, accepting society,
>that civilized place, matured above past oppressions and discriminations,
>that peaceful, decent world which was the vision of the Founder of the
>Faith.
I am reminded of the words of Montaigne, with a hundred years of
religious wars behind them:
"In trying to make themselves angels, men transform themselves
into beasts."
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Monday, January 25, 1999 9:29 AM
Subject: rmgroup: soc.religion.bahai (Re: Annotated NO voters - 3rd interest poll)
I believe soc.religion.bahai has violated its charter and
obligations to Usenet so thoroughly and the evidence of
it is so overwhelming that the best interests of Bahais
and non-Bahais would be served by removing
soc.religion.bahai from Usenet. Usenet provides for this
process. While I cannot be the driving force behind such an
effort, I would support and vote for it.
I believe a number of news.groupies would support the
removal of soc.religion.bahai for the above reasons.
The BCCA's complicity in the two years of opposition to
talk.religion.bahai is indisputable and were involved in
attempting to defeat the proposal once again this third
time through putting together the same carefully calculated NO
vote that succeeded the 2nd time in scuttling the proposal.
Their vow that "steps have been taken to prevent his
[FG's] posting to any forum for which we
have responsibility [including soc.religion.bahai] and repeated
interference in the interest polls violates the duties and
obligations owed to Usenet:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/Towfiq.htm
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/BCCAvows.txt
To all fair-minded observers, who scrutinize the RESULT
with an impartial eye, it should be clear that
Bahais did not vote for nor pass the talk.religion.bahai
proposal. It was passed by mostly non-Bahais who could
no longer tolerate the pervasive fanaticism and intolerance
of the soc.religion.bahai "moderators."
Along these lines it has been suggested to me that people
wishing to discuss a thread on soc.religion.bahai should
repost it to talk.religion.bahai, perhaps marking each one in the
Subject as "SRB:" so that all topics may be openly and freely
discussed. Overtime, this should further ameliorate the censorship
that has descended on srb and on the discussion of the Faith.
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Monday, January 25, 1999 9:40 AM
Subject: TRB: Over 161 messages in one week....
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Monday, January 25, 1999 3:26 PM
Subject: Re: bickering intellectuals
jrcole@umich.edu wrote in message <78i7d6$r27$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>What is this, an auto-da-fe? Look, my point was that Susan Maneck reacted
to
>"Counselor" Birkland's fascist 1996 letter to a Baha'i academic (which may
be
>read in all its glory at
>https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/bhcouns.htm ) at the time like
>any normal person would have. She was appalled. She thought about leaving
>the faith if this was followed through on. She could not imagine someone
>being ordered to think differently than they thought.
Thank you for sharing this link. Since it's obviously a controversial
document I've added a link to it on my website so that others may
judge for themselves.
I must say I do agree with Juan's overall observations on Ms. Maneck,
who was quite dishonest in her opposition to talk.religion.bahai and
on trying to get herself appointed Bahai Forum Leader on AOL:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/Maneck1.htm
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Monday, January 25, 1999 3:39 PM
Subject: Re: destroying intellectuals
jrcole@umich.edu wrote in message <78abup$4tq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
The comparison is not meant to be
>grandiose, since I am well aware I'm just a historian, but I think it
>is true that to any extent that I am remembered at all in the future
>it is as likely I will be seen as a 'Baha'i' as that Spinoza is now
>seen as a Jew, despite his excommunication.
Juan,
I consider you a Bahai, more of a Bahai than the
fanatics parading around on srb, or me, for that matter....
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Monday, January 25, 1999 3:47 PM
Subject: Re: destroying intellectuals
jrcole@umich.edu wrote in message <78fnr5$2kr$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
I suggest not even acknowledging the
>sniping of what Shoghi Effendi contemptuously dismissed as the 'extreme
>orthodox' "Baha'is."
What about all of their hate mail and accusations of
covenant breaking and so forth?
I believe the only way to deal with them is to expose them
to the light of day.... I shall continue to do so. It's the only
way to get them to leave one alone.... It should come as
no surprise that many of them whine so once caught....
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Monday, January 25, 1999 3:50 PM
Subject: Re: destroying intellectuals
Smaneck wrote in message <19990124152435.23373.00003227@ng-cg1.aol.com>...
>
>Then the bulk of Mr. Glaysher's website is certainly illegal. As Dr. Cole
is
>undoubtedly aware quoting a sentence or two from someone's letter would not
be
>taken seriously in any court. But I think there is certainly grounds for
>considering a class action suit against that website.
My, what a frustrated fanatic you appear to be.... Loosing your little
NO vote campaign seems to have really hurt your little feelings....
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Monday, January 25, 1999 3:57 PM
Subject: Re: destroying intellectuals
jrcole@umich.edu wrote in message <78egu6$98k$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>His intent clearly was to establish a religious liberty that would match
the
>political liberty he so admired in the United States.
I believe this statement to be obviously true to any intelligent
reading of the Bahai Writings....
Obviously, any system
>of liberty must be a system of the rule of law, and officers of the court
may
>not blithely disregard the precedents and rulings of the highest judicial
>body in the system. But ordinary believers may in `Abdul-Baha's view put
>forth their beliefs and conscience without fear or trepidation.
Not today in the Bahai Faith....
Nor can this
>vision, so attractive, so liberal, so unlike any existing religion with the
>possible exception of Unitarian Universalism, forever be distorted or
>prevented from coming to fruition.
I'm not so confident.... It may be hamstrung forever....
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Monday, January 25, 1999 4:11 PM
Subject: Re: Scent of the Bahji Rose
Matthew Cromer wrote in message <78eqg0$6ko$1@camel29.mindspring.com>...
>
>
>----------
>In article <78egu6$98k$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, jrcole@umich.edu wrote:
>
>
>> His intent clearly was to establish a religious liberty that would match
the
>> political liberty he so admired in the United States. Obviously, any
system
>> of liberty must be a system of the rule of law, and officers of the court
may
>> not blithely disregard the precedents and rulings of the highest judicial
>> body in the system. But ordinary believers may in `Abdul-Baha's view
put
>> forth their beliefs and conscience without fear or trepidation. Nor can
this
>> vision, so attractive, so liberal, so unlike any existing religion with
the
>> possible exception of Unitarian Universalism, forever be distorted or
>> prevented from coming to fruition.
>
>So where do we go from here?
>
>We have, on the one hand, a Baha'i religious heirarchy that has rejected
its
>own, cast away its scholars, made its thinkers depart, and assumed a moral
>rigidity that has made countless more leave.
Many TENS of THOUSANDS have left or been driven
out of the Bahai Faith by its "adminstrators."
>
>On the other hand, we have the sweet words of Baha'u'llah and Abdul-Baha
>and such shining examples among some of the other believers so as to make
>hearts weep with joy and sadness at a world so indifferent to their melody.
>
>We have stalwart moral intellectuals like Juan, the Waldbridges, and
others,
>who have been silenced or driven from the faith. Others were driven from
the
>faith by assemblies that decided to prosecute moral choices.
Such is the reception that people of capacity always receive
in the Bahai Faith. What irony, give all the despite pleas
to convert such people.... There's a real disconnect on the
part of the "adminstrators."
>
>I speak for myself when I say that I cannot leave Baha'i behind. I can't
>"get past it". Nor can I associate myself with the witch-hunts, spiritual
>pogroms, or the moneylenders in the temple who enrich themselves in marble
>halls with the gold of the credulous. Where are the people like me to go?
Alas, the late Modern Soul....
>
>I know Juan is finding some degree of compatibility with UU. But my
parents
>became Baha'is when I was two years old, I grew in the crucible of Baha'i
>culture, sang Baha'i songs, saw the unity, heard the chants.
>
>Something draws me forward, something keeps me irrevocably away.
I respect your antinomies....
>
>Can there be a faith that is Baha'i without a ministry of the orthodox
>telling us all how to think, how me must live our lives, upon pain of
>excommunication for any questioning of authority?
Fanatics at the top seem to approve....
Is there a spirit that is
>Baha'i that is inclusive, that embraces us all with our varying beliefs,
>that does not require dogma and doctrine but allows all of us to call
>ourselves Baha'i because we find something so Beautiful in the tales of the
>Prince of Persia? Not that I can ever again believe the exclusivity
>doctrine, or the belief that every word must never be questioned,
regardless
>if it came from that Blessed Beauty or someone else. My mind and heart
tell
>me that belief ends up in a wasteland.
>
>I don't know. But I do know that I love something deep about this faith, I
>miss something about this faith. And I loathe what they have done to it,
>the mockery they have made of it.
So do I....
The commanders of the army of inclusion
>has chosen excommunication, character assassination, vilification,
>censorship, and all manner of evil deeds to perform against their own
people
>in pursuit of that which cannot last.
The only possibility is to drive the money changers from the
temple.... It's my dearest wish that trb will help do precisely
that....
But I cannot forget the scent of
>Bahji Rose, I cannot leave behind the tapestry of life hung upon the walls,
>I still taste the Pilgrim's tea, remember the pomegranate freshly plucked
>from a tree so near that blessed spot.
>
>And this is but one dance among many, but one way to the Source, but it was
>my way. One does not forget the walls and halls of childhood, they guide
>the mind, they are the framework of every thought and dream and hope. And
>my childhood was Baha'i, I learned to love God by loving the _Baha'i_ God,
>and this cannot be undone, the cloth is woven, and ne'er shall be undone.
>And yet I stand outside the garden now, in the winter land of ice and snow.
>And the gate is barred by human hand--an army of occupation. No, that is
>not correct--this army is instead a misery-infested bunch of turncoats who
>have seized the gates and barred them shut to those who wish to enter, and
>cast from within any who question their actions. Oh Tablet of the Holy
>Mariner!
The masses, when they enter the Bahai Faith, will throw
them out, you see, and THEY realize it.... The Writings
state this unequivocally, by the way....
>
>So I stand outside, the doors are closed, the walls insurmountable. But I
>will honor the Gardener, and remember the fruits, and speak kindly of the
>Planter, even if his successors deserve none of it.
All they deserve is a kick in the ass.... You could help drive
them out by leading the charge to rmgroup soc.religion.bahai....
Alas, I'm exhausted from the last two years.... Someone else
must pick up the banner and mount the barricades, O Heroes of
God....
>I am not a Baha'i, and they are. I do not believe in infallibility, or
>giving one's will to another person, regardless of how Holy He may be. And
>they do. And they are the Baha'is, and I am not. A tear glistens in the
>corner of the eye.
Life is bitter and tragic. Expect nothing else from
it but sacrifice and struggle.... Wipe away the modern
sentimental tear and DO something to scatter the forces
of fanaticism and absolutely drive them into the obscurity
they deserve....
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
>
>Matthew Cromer
>
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Monday, January 25, 1999 5:21 PM
Subject: Re: Redefining the Baha'i Faith
McKenny Michael wrote in message <78f3fc$mal@freenet-news.carleton.ca>...
>
>Greetings, Susan, from Ottawa.
> You wrote:
>>
>> It means people were using their authority as scholars to try and remake
the
>> Faith in their own image.
This is the usual anti-intellectualism one hears from the
literalists among Bahais, who of course are running the
lemonade stand.... Real leaders wouldn't worry about the
kind of things Michael mentions below but respect the
diversity of human opinion and temperament....
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
>
> Let's be more specific. Let's list some of these views which Susan
>calls a redefining of the Baha'i Faith, some of these beliefs considered
>so threatening to those in authority, some of these ideas deemed in the
>past so worthy of censorship, harrassment and exclusion from the Baha'i
>Faith.
> Such views include that the Baha'i Faith be run according to the
>fundamental principles of the Baha'i Faith, that discrimination cease in
>the Baha'i Faith, that, as the prophet said there is no evil, then there
>are no enemies, that there is room in the Baha'i Faith for those who
>agree with the prophet that where the findings of modern science conflict
>with the literal text of scripture, then science may be correct, that the
>Baha'i "world" religion is big enough to include people of a Sufi-like
>temperament, people who perceive deity with a feminine aspect, people
>who understand that when a woman asked the son of the prophet before
>World War One why only men were running Baha'i affairs in Chicago, the
>answer was not tolerate a Baha'i world patriarchate to be established
>in 1963.
> These are some of the so shocking opinions, some of the so heretical
>views (in a movement whose founder so insightfully said there are no
>heretical views) that academic work was censored, that scholars were
>interrogated, that some of the most broad minded members of the religion
>were hounded out of it.
> Now in an uncontrolled forum everyone will have the opportunity to
>see these views, to observe what the reaction to them is now, to witness
>just how the Baha'i Faith really is defined.
> May this find you very well, and may each day ahead of us be better
>than the one it succeeds.
> All the Best,
> Michael
>
>
>
>--
>"My name's McKenny, Mike McKenny, Warrant Officer, Solar Guard."
> (Tom Corbett #1 STAND BY FOR MARS p2)
>
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Monday, January 25, 1999 5:27 PM
Subject: Re: Redefining the Baha'i Faith
Much of the problem stems from the fact that most of the
"Bahai leaders" are illiterate, ignorant Bozos and philistines who have
only received technical educations and have relatively no experience
in handling ideas....
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
McKenny Michael wrote in message <78i3is$f73@freenet-news.carleton.ca>...
>
>Greetings, Susan.
> You write:
>> The chief conflict here is not in regards to the
>> items Mr. McKenny names, but in regards to the authority of
>> the Covenant.
>>
> Another time when I have more time I'll try to speak at some
>considered length on this issue you see as most vital. Now, off the top
>of my head, let me say that the issue of authority would not have been
>involved had Baha'u'llah's insight in saying anyone could speak her/his
>mind been followed, as well as other basic Baha'i principles.
> What is authority? I think it comes from the Latin word auctoritas
>and this word included what we think of as influence. The leaders of the
>Baha'i Faith would exert more influence through the implementation of
>the fundamental principles of the religion, by walking the talk, by
>really living as Baha'u'llah intended than they possibly could through
>such means as censorship, interrogation and insistence of a literalist
>compliance with any command soever.
> Yes, undeniably there are individuals who can be trained to obey
>anything whatsoever, intimidated, compelled, forced to do all sorts of
>unconscienable deeds. This is one of the things to check off in the
>cult list I've asked be posted here. So, yes, one can exert unhealthy
>influence over some people. Yet, looking at things with the broad-
>minded vision of Baha'u'llah, if there is to be influence, and beneficial
>influence at that, exerted by Baha'i leaders upon humanity as a whole,
>then this preoccupation with absolute and literal compliance with un-
>principled commands will be cast away.
> I'm outta time. I hope this is clear enough, especially to Baha'i
>leaders.
> All the Best,
> Michael
>
>
>>
>> warmest,
>>
>> Susan
>
>
>--
>"My name's McKenny, Mike McKenny, Warrant Officer, Solar Guard."
> (Tom Corbett #1 STAND BY FOR MARS p2)
>
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Monday, January 25, 1999 5:32 PM
Subject: Re: destroying intellectuals
Smaneck wrote in message <19990124021337.01049.00001385@ng-ch1.aol.com>...
>Oh, really? Well then let's get the specifics of those laws posted up here
>immediately! That way we can force Fred Glaysher to take down all the
>*numerous* complete private correspondence he has posted on his website.
What's the matter, Susan, got something to hide? Your NO vote campaign?
Not the kind of thing you'd like your colleagues to know about?
Ashamed of yourself, at last?
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Monday, January 25, 1999 5:36 PM
Subject: Re: destroying intellectuals
Smaneck wrote in message <19990124123938.23380.00003346@ng-cg1.aol.com>...
But we cannot
>pick and choose when we will obey the Institutions and the provisions of
the
>Covenant and when we will not.
What Susan is really saying here is HER interpretation of
the covenant....
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Monday, January 25, 1999 5:50 PM
Subject: Re: rmgroup: soc.religion.bahai (Re: Annotated NO voters - 3rd interest poll)
Roger Reini wrote in message <36ad8800.11406303@news.newsguy.com>...
>On Mon, 25 Jan 1999 08:29:54 -0500, "FG"
><FG@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>To all fair-minded observers, who scrutinize the RESULT
>>with an impartial eye, it should be clear that
>>Bahais did not vote for nor pass the talk.religion.bahai
>>proposal. It was passed by mostly non-Bahais who could
>>no longer tolerate the pervasive fanaticism and intolerance
>>of the soc.religion.bahai "moderators."
>
>IMHO, there are not enough Baha'is who use Usenet to be able to vote a
>newsgroup into existence solely on their own. There would have to be
>participation from non-Baha'is. Besides, did not more Baha'is vote
>yes than no?
Over 600 Bahais voted NO on the first proposal. Roughly 240
voted YES for srb in 1995. Nevertheless, there are enough votes
to rmgroup soc.religion.bahai, and I believe it should be done in
the best interests of the Faith. Bill Hyman and his little band of
fanatics has revealed all too appallingly that the dangers of
fundamentalism exist in the Bahai Faith too.... No one should
control who or what gets a hearing, and Abdul-Baha thought
so....
Far from censoring srb, rmgrouping it would be preserving
the gains made here with trb and assuring that all the literalists have
no alternative but to learn to tolerate other opinions and religions,
such as Islam....
It's quite clear that the BCCA runs soc.religion.bahai and has
played a role all along in trying to defeat trb. A religion should
not control a newsgroup, newsgroupies agree, and, I believe,
will help to remove it....
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
>
>I have nothing to say about the remainder of the proposal other than
>this: I would not support removing s.r.b.
>
>Roger (rreini@wwnet.net)
>https://fp-www.wwnet.net/~rreini/
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Monday, January 25, 1999 5:58 PM
To: Angefly27@aol.com
Subject: Re: talk.religion.bahai passed & now available on Usenet
Much of this is all answered on my website or
on talk.religion.bahai.
Check in and see what you think.
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
-----Original Message-----
From: Angefly27@aol.com <Angefly27@aol.com>
To: FG@hotmail.com <FG@hotmail.com>
Date: Saturday, January 23, 1999 1:53 PM
Subject: Re: talk.religion.bahai passed & now available on Usenet
>I haven't been on that the other Bahai newsgroup in several months, and I
only
>read over the posts briefly when I was there. Why were you banned from
>posting? Are you a Bahai? I'm not an LSA member or anything like that,
but I
>am a Bahai. I still have my card and I get my newspaper from National, at
>least. There are some issues I'm trying to resolve in my mind, so I'm just
>curious as to what happened on the newsgroup.
>
>Sincerely,
>
>Angela Shortt
----------
From: Bill & Jane Hyman[SMTP:hymanfam@samoatelco.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 1999 2:12 AM
To: FG@hotmail.com
Subject: Response to Windmill
Dear Fred:
Do you really think that you will get much support for your current goal
to have Usenet unclassify srb? Many Baha'is and non-Baha'is like a
moderated channel. It is so much more warm and friendly. I have found
that even unmoderated Baha'i channels are less polite than srb due to
the moderators being there to make sure that submissions comply to the
charter.
I suggest you find a more realistic windmill.
I was the only member of the moderating team to vote for or against the
formation of trb. The moderators of srb did not discuss it and my vote
was purely personal. You admit that it was mostly non-Baha'is that
caused its passage. Doesn't that tell you something? I voted against it
because I was a subscriber to bahai-faith@coollist.com, a mail-list you
started when your previous bid for trb failed. I did not like the
constant bickering, most of it yours. Without moderators it is hard to
stop. trb's charter is very similar to srb's, the main difference being
that srb can enforce its charter. It brings out the best in people.
Unfortunately there is no local newsgroup server here and trb does not
have e-mail mirroring otherwise I would subscribe to trb to see how it
is turning out. I will visit it on the archives occasionally.
Bill Hyman
> Subject: rmgroup: soc.religion.bahai (Re: Annotated NO voters -
> 3rd interest poll)
> From: "FG" <FG@hotmail.com>
> Date: 1/25/99 8:29 AM Eastern Standard Time
> Message-id: <78hrjr$19t@news1.newsguy.com>
>
> I believe soc.religion.bahai has violated its charter and
> obligations to Usenet so thoroughly and the evidence of
> it is so overwhelming that the best interests of Bahais
> and non-Bahais would be served by removing
> soc.religion.bahai from Usenet. Usenet provides for this
> process. While I cannot be the driving force behind such an
> effort, I would support and vote for it.
>
> I believe a number of news.groupies would support the
> removal of soc.religion.bahai for the above reasons.
>
> The BCCA's complicity in the two years of opposition to
> talk.religion.bahai is indisputable and were involved in
> attempting to defeat the proposal once again this third
> time through putting together the same carefully calculated NO
> vote that succeeded the 2nd time in scuttling the proposal.
>
> Their vow that "steps have been taken to prevent his
> [FG's] posting to any forum for which we
> have responsibility [including soc.religion.bahai] and repeated
> interference in the interest polls violates the duties and
> obligations owed to Usenet:
> https://members.tripod.com/~FG/Towfiq.htm
>
> https://members.tripod.com/~FG/BCCAvows.txt
>
> To all fair-minded observers, who scrutinize the RESULT
> with an impartial eye, it should be clear that
> Bahais did not vote for nor pass the talk.religion.bahai
> proposal. It was passed by mostly non-Bahais who could
> no longer tolerate the pervasive fanaticism and intolerance
> of the soc.religion.bahai "moderators."
>
> Along these lines it has been suggested to me that people
> wishing to discuss a thread on soc.religion.bahai should
> repost it to talk.religion.bahai, perhaps marking each one in the
> Subject as "SRB:" so that all topics may be openly and freely
> discussed. Overtime, this should further ameliorate the censorship
> that has descended on srb and on the discussion of the Faith.
>
> FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
> https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
> alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
>
>
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 1999 7:04 AM
Subject: Re: Undermining the Baha'i Faith
dareve@my-dejanews.com wrote in message <78jgso$uit$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
There IS evil. It has a
>negative existence, but not a negative non-existence. Study Islamic
Theosophy,
>and you'll know better how to interpret the words of the Central Figures.
Now you're saying something I can relate to.... The trivialization of
the Bahai Writings hinge on the common misreading of this dark
Reality....
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 1999 8:22 AM
Subject: Re: rmgroup: soc.religion.bahai (Re: Annotated NO voters - 3rd interest poll)
Emma Pease wrote in message ...
>
>Let s.r.b. alone, and, if as you believe the moderators are so
>terrible, the difference between t.r.b. and s.r.b. should make it
>obvious to any thinking person.
I think you're right. The problem comes in that srb is controlled
by an appointed body, the BCCA or Bahai Computer
and Communication Association, directly installed by the
Bahai administrative order. Think about that: a newsgroup
CONTROLLED by a religious organization. The BCCA has
been central to the efforts to defeat trb all along. Proof of this
can be found in their statement to me that "steps have been
taken to prevent his posting to any forum for which we have
responsibility" during the 2nd poll when many people began
to support the idea of trb. One such forum they control is
soc.religion.bahai though Bahais often lie about it and deny it.
See https://members.tripod.com/~FG/BCCAvows.txt
Far be it here from the oppressed becoming the oppressors;
rather, this oppressed one would like to see a new world
order in which others will not be likewise oppressed. That
they can be shunted off to trb would be to permit indignities
that are still transgressions of the basic openness of Usenet,
committed by a religious body exploiting a free system of
communication.
There can be no doubt that the Bahai Universal House of
Justice itself has condoned the actions of the BCCA and
soc.religion.bahai.
Such travesties will only contine while srb exists.
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 1999 5:40 PM
Subject: Re: Juan Cole=Pseudo-Baha'i and Rumi=Pseudo-Muslim
jrcole@umich.edu wrote in message <78kqqh$12p$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>The great mystic Jalalu'd-Din Rumi was accused by narrow minded legalist
>Muslims of not being a Muslim. He dared speak of `ishq or passionate love
of
>God! This is what he said to them, and I say it to you:
>
>What is to be done, O Moslems? for I do not recognise myself.
>I am neither Christian, nor Jew, nor Gabr, nor Moslem.
Nor Bahai....
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: Roger Reini[SMTP:rreini@wwnet.net]
Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 1999 1:44 PM
To: FG
Subject: RE: soc.religion.bahai - brief quotations
I believe it was "jgoldberg", which I believe is a reference to Jeffrey
Goldberg. I'm not 100% certain, but I'm pretty sure of this.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: FG [mailto:FG@hotmail.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 1999 8:39 AM
> To: rreini@wwnet.net
> Subject: Re: soc.religion.bahai - brief quotations
>
>
> Roger,
>
> Please let me know the person's name.
>
> Fred
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Roger Reini <rreini@wwnet.net>
> Newsgroups: talk.religion.bahai
> Date: Saturday, January 23, 1999 8:02 PM
> Subject: Re: soc.religion.bahai - brief quotations
>
>
> >I have another observation: I believe that one of the individuals
> >quoted in the posting is actually a Covenant breaker. I recall
> >reading the formal notification of that individual's expulsion from
> >the Faith in "The American Baha'i", and I also recall that individual
> >posting to alt.religion.bahai. This happened about 1 1/2 to 2 years
> >ago.
> >
> >If my recollection is correct (you'll not I am not identifying the
> >individual here), then it's understandable that he/she would claim
> >that he/she was being censored by the moderators on s.r.b, as his/her
> >submissions violated the charter of the newsgroup.
> >
> >
> >On 23 Jan 1999 16:45:38 GMT, smaneck@aol.com (Smaneck) wrote:
> >
> >>Fred Glaysher put up a bunch of quotations from people in
> connection with
> >>soc.religion.bahai leaving readers with the impression that all of these
> >>individuals had been victims of censorship on newsgroup. I would like to
> point
> >>out that some of the people Fred quoted knew nothing about that
> newsgroup,
> >>whatsoever. I just communicated with Ruletherod, for instance,
> who when I
> >>asked him about his experience of censorship on soc.religion.bahai wrote
> me the
> >>following:
> >>
> >>"What is soc.baha'i relig. I've honestly never kept track. I
> think all if
> the
> >>things he's taken were from Talisman and AOL Bahai boards--where I've
> remained"
> >>
> >>
> >>As in the case of Rachel's message, Mr. Glaysher apparently has
> no qualms
> about
> >> taking people's statements completely out of the context. I wonder how
> many
> >>others he has done this with?
> >>warmest,
> >>
> >>Susan
> >
> >Roger (rreini@wwnet.net)
> >https://fp-www.wwnet.net/~rreini/
>
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 1999 7:44 AM
Subject: Re: Baha'u'llah's Tablet of Maqsud, on human unity, pt. 3
Juan,
At the outset I concede I'm unqualified to discuss the
linguistic subtleties of Farsi and balk to even mention I was
once many years ago a mediocre student of the language at the
University of Michigan, retaining now next to nothing of the tongue,
having learnt then very little of it.... With that plea for mercy, here
goes:
>The 'station of learning'
>or maqa:m-i ta`li:m is a reference to the entire range of learning,
religious
>and secular.
It seems to me the "received" translation also suggests the broad
meaning; at least, I've always read it broadly....
>I think the phrase, "The Absolute Truth has taken nothing for himself" is
>yet another proof-text for Baha'u'llah's opposition to the idea of
theocracy.
> That is, God wants nothing of the world for himself or his religion, and
his
>religion is not to attempt to rule. God only wants the human soul for
>himself.
You seem to neglect Baha'u'llah's passages relating to the
creation of an organizational structure of some type. Metaphysically
speaking, I agree with you.
> Baha'u'llah argues here for all human beings feeling themselves as 'one
>soul' regardless of their backgrounds or beliefs, and he underlines that
this
>spiritual unity involves *kindness* and *compassion* toward all. It is not
a
>regimented unity imposed on individuals, but a voluntary unity that comes
out
>of a sense of God's spiritual power and an emulation of his tenderness and
>mercy toward everyone.
"Regimented unity imposed": Your referent is clear; I would argue
Baha'u'llah Himself does foreshadow this type of development in
many tablets.... Given the nature of the human being, which is not
capable of fundamental change, a teaching I would argue of
Baha'u'llah himself, it only stands to reason....
> For "the clerics of this age" (`ulama:-yi `as.r ) the official translation
>gives: "the learned and worldly-wise men of this age." This rendering is
not
>only erroneous but extremely misleading, since the Arabic word `ulama:' in
>such a Persian passage could *only* mean at that point the Muslim clerics.
>'Worldly-wise men' would have been something like da:nishmanda:n. And there
>is no parallelism in the original Persian. Only the `ulama' are mentioned,
>and in an unflattering manner.
At what point historically does the "official" translation suppress the
word Ulama? Does a translation exist of this passage prior to the
publication of the Tablets of Baha'u'llah in 1978? The anti-
intellectual spin of "the learned and worldy-wise men of this
age" has an obviously cynical usefulness in Bahai circles;
many will admit having seen it put to such uses.... E.g., against people
on Talisman, the Bahai Encyclopedia, Dialogue, etc....
>This point is important, because Baha'u'llah is wishing, in the original
that
>the `ulama'/clerics as a social class *allow* free investigation of his
>religion. If that happened, he says, *and* if human beings discovered love
and
>unity, then the true meaning of liberty (hurriyyat) would become apparent.
Right here at this point is where the literalists may intervene
and object. What a strange perverting of Baha'u'llah's own
concerns.... Incidentally, I've always thought highly of your reading
of the passage on liberty versus license.
>If we turn this around, we may conclude that he believed that people were
>being prevented from discovering the meaning of liberty a) by the Muslim
>clergy of that time and b) by a lack of appreciation for the need for human
>beings to pull together harmoniously. In short, religious traditionalism on
>the one hand and petty factionalism on the other stood in the way of the
>recognition of the true nature of liberty. . . . He is *advocating*
liberty,
>and seems to me to be taking clear sides in the culture wars of the early
>1880s.
My wife and I have often derisively referred to the "Bahai wars" over the
last few years....
>Here is a case where I think the official translation turns the meaning of
>the passage on its head, implying that Baha'u'llah is denouncing the
notables
>and intellectuals (men of the world) who were advocating liberty at that
>time, for not understanding its true nature. If we realize he was
denouncing
>the reactionary ulama or Muslim clergy, it is immediately clear that he was
>*siding* with the pro-democracy notables (though perhaps admonishing them
>against undue factionalism and rancor).
To what extent do you believe the Bahai administration has
made a calculated effort to obscure such aspects of Baha'u'llah's
Writings? It has, I believe, often been my praise of such
references and dimensions of his or Abdul-Baha's thought that has
brought about the frenzied opposition of the fundamentalists. They're
very threatened by this kind of reading of Baha'u'llah's Writings;
i.e., recognizing their blatant support for freedom, liberty, and
democracy.
>In this
>context of Muslim reformist parliamentarism, and resistance to it by
>colonially minded Europeans who manifested their superiority by attacking
>'fanatical' Islam in the press and by occupying Muslim lands, Baha'u'llah's
>defense of Muhammad and Islam seems exactly the sort of thing liberal
Muslims
>like Muhammad `Abduh were engaging in at precisely that time. Again, for
>Baha'u'llah to begin by criticizing Muslim clerics for preventing the
people
>from appreciating "liberty" and at the same time to criticize those who
>attacked Islam, situates him in the camp of Muslim modernism.
Can you speculate on why it appears so many Iranian Bahais
and others have ended up in such a fanatical mindset? Why
have they joined ranks with Khomeini?
Translating Baha'u'llah:
>The evidence of hypocrisy is
>visible everywhere under the horizon, even though all were created for the
>sake of unity and concord.
>Juan Cole
>History, U of Michigan
> https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai.htm
Interesting use of the word "hypocrisy" in this passage. It's
certainly been my experience of life, Bahai included....
What tragedy. It makes me remember Robert Hayden's lines:
"Oh, what a world we make,
oppressor and oppressed."
Life has left me little time for the last few years. I intend now to
buy your book and read it.
Is your article from JSSR, or whatever it was, which has recently
ruffled some feathers, available on your website?
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 1999 7:49 AM
Subject: Re: rmgroup: soc.religion.bahai (Re: Annotated NO voters - 3rd interest poll)
Ron House wrote in message <36AEA887.42EE953E@usq.edu.au>...
>
>This isn't true. Scanning the list, I see positively heaps of names of
>Baha'is and Persian names (likely Baha'is). I know our usenet friends
>helped a great deal, but EVERYONE pulled together to get this NG.
Ron, you're mistaken. VERY FEW Bahais voted YES.... If you can
annotated the YES, do so; I doubt there are more than the 27 Bahai
names I identified, four of them including my family....
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 1999 8:47 AM
Subject: Re: What is a Cult?
jrcole@umich.edu wrote in message <78kq9i$ji$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>It would be silly to call the Baha'i faith a "dangerous religious cult," or
>even a "cult" at all in an unqualified fashion. The position I have
finally
>come to is, however, that the Baha'i community is highly segmented.
>Communities are quite different from one another. Individual
administrators
>differ radically from one another. This diversity means there are liberals
>and conservatives, former hippies and retired colonels, all sorts of people
>in the movement. Community discourse and community face-to-face
interactions
>are actually set up so as to allow Baha'is to mask from one another how
>different they are. This is why cyberspace is so interesting, because for
>the first time you get the frank statement of individual views in all their
>variety. That information is so suppressed and the community is so various
>helps explain why most liberal Baha'is don't even know the kinds of things
>that go on behind the scenes, and find them difficult to believe when they
do
>hear them.
>
>What becomes clear is that amongst all this diversity, there are
>administrators with a cult-like mentality, and there are some communities
>that are more cult-like than others. It is also clear that the power
>structures can act to reinforce such tendencies, though sometimes they
>counteract them. The situation is extremely complex, which is why it is so
>hard to understand.
>
>But let's look at the first checklist:
>
>>
>> 1. Signs of unhealthy involvement
>
>These are there for some persons, not for others.
Yes, it would depend on the individual; however, I've never
witnessed an administrator caution those who go TOO far
in their zeal, almost destroying their own lives in the process.
>
>> 2. Isolation from everyone or everything outside of the group and its
>> control.
>
>Not characteristic of the Baha'i faith except in a very mild way. Though
note
>that the inability to join political parties or groups like Amnesty
>International and the exhortation to pioneer can all have the effect of
>isolating individuals more from mainstream society than would otherwise be
the
>case.
I take exception with Juan here. ISOLATION is highly characteristic
of the Bahai Faith. I would not describe it as "very mild." Pioneering
is certainly used to skim off many problem personalities by sending
them out to the frontier, as it were. In my opinion, DAILY Bahai life
is highly structured to create pyschological ISOLATION which
thereby increases the control the authorities have over such persons.
This is a MAJOR factor in Bahai community life that needs to be
recognized and discussed much more. The whole battle against
trb has been an attempted to keep Bahais ISOLATED from others'
views and typifies much of what I am referring to.
>
>> 3. A we/they mentality. All those outside the group are somehow
>> negative or not equal; one must be a member. Partial commitment
>> or belief is not tolerated (no shades of gray).
>
>I think you will find this particular characteristic quite common among
some
>Baha'is, and I think it is obvious in some posters to this list.
Many Bahais very much have a cult-like mentality in this regard.
I've witnessed it in several different Bahai "communities" in two
countries.
>
>
>> 4. Everything outside of the group is evil, of the devil, or worldly.
>
>Some Baha'is do excoriate everything to do with the "Old World Order" (i.e.
>everything outside the group). Even the Bill of Rights in the U.S.
>constitution is sometimes trashed.
Including democracy, the "West," anything the Iranians running
the Bahai Faith disapprove of. It occurs to me that the most
ISOLATED Bahais are indeed the poor Iranians clinging to
their derision of America and all of the above.
>
>> 5. Excessive fasting and praying, extreme tension or stress, which
>> may result in eating disorders, chronic depression, acute anxiety,
>> physical exhaustion, or illness.
>
>Not characteristic of Baha'is.
I agree Bahais are not extreme in this regard. Moderation
is usually the hallmark of Bahai fasting and prayer.
>
>> 6. Hallucinations (i.e. visions or messages from God).
>
>Not characteristic of Baha'is
>
>> 7. Compulsively talking about the group, its leaders, and its
>> doctrines.
>
>Characteristic of some Baha'is.
"Doctrines": It would have to be the covenant and the fanatical
intrepretation given to it by the zealots whipping others with it....
Much evidence on this point has appeared online during the
two years of discussion for trb.
>
>> 8. Repeatedly quoting certain scriptures emphasized by the group.
>
>Characteristic of some Baha'is.
Again, covenant fanatics....
>
>> 9. Refusing to engage in conversation that may question the group
>> and its leaders. Such criticism may even be characterized as satanic.
>
>Obviously, the shunning of covenant breakers and even of anyone who
disagrees
>with the religion's leaders is characteristic of many Baha'is so that point
9
>is present to a fair degree.
I would say it pervades Bahai life.... And I link it again to the ISOLATION
that indeed does exist and shape EVERY Bahai and community.
>
>> 10. Almost complete or total domination of the participant's time by
>> the group. Attending study, crusades, revivals, prayer meetings,
>> services, or other group activities constantly. With little time
is
>> left for family, old friends, or other interests.
>
>characteristic of some Baha'is.
Most in my experience. There is no life outside the Bahai
community for the true believer, kudos to Eric Hoffer....
>
>> 11. The group discourages questions concerning its leaders or
>> doctrines.
>
>This is an attribute that is very strongly rooted in the Baha'i community.
The struggle over talk.religon.bahai certainly provides overwhelming
evidence of this. It should be noted how the "administrators" use and
hide behind stooges and lackies to accomplish their dirty work. The
BCCA has especially been used this way by the UHJ.
>
>> 12. Doubt may be equated to an attack by the devil upon the follower's
>> mind.
>
>Doubts are not exactly encouraged by most Baha'is.
You're supposed to repent and believe all the more zealously....
>
>> 13. Compulsively and constantly witnessing their beliefs to everyone,
>> often in a confrontational or extreme manner.
>
>Characteristic of some Baha'is.
Again evident online; worse for some individuals.
>
>> Author: Rick Ross, an exit-counselor Copyright 1995 IFAS Walk
>> Away
>>
>> ***********************************************************************
>
>So, on this list, the Baha'i community racks up some mild scores, but is
>obviously only minimally in this ballpark.
I disagree. I would not call them "mild scores," quite the reverse.
>
>
>Now let us turn to AFF's list.
>
>
> Checklist of Cult Characteristics -AFF Research
>>
>> Checklist of Cult Characteristics
>>
>> 1. The group is focused on a living leader to whom members seem to
>> display excessively zealous, unquestioning commitment.
>
>
>Well, if we put this in the plural and say "leaders", then the whole
>infallibility of the UHJ thing and the manner in which it is forbidden to
>dissent from their point of view certainly seems to fit this criterion.
I agree. What happens to the individual who expresses
any point of view other than the received one is evident
in what happened to Michael McKenny et al.
>
>> 2. The group is preoccupied with bringing in new members.
>
>Characteristic of Baha'is. Many communities and some leaders are fixated
on
>sudden mass conversion.
It IS the Bahai Faith.
>
>> 3. The group is preoccupied with making money.
>
>You can't spend $500 million on remodeling Mt. Carmel unless you have
raised
>that kind of money. The old Persian man who taught me the faith is in his
>90s, and has resigned. "They turned that religion into an auction," he
>complained to me. We have heard from many new Baha'is in cyberspace their
>horror stories of being constantly dunned for money in their local
>communities and on videotape from National.
The Bahai Faith should be on the Dow Jones along with other
international businesses....
>
>> 4. Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged or even punished.
>
>This is characteristic of the Baha'i faith. People are threatened behind
the
>scenes with being shunned for even mild dissent. And then it is denied
that
>this happens!
Proof of this can be seen in many places on my website.
The threats I received from a "counselor" at the end of
the 1st interest poll can be read at the end of
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/To-UHJ1.htm
>
>> 5. Mind-numbing techniques (such as meditation, chanting, speaking in
>> tongues, denunciation sessions, debilitating work routines) are
>> used to suppress doubts about the group and its leader(s).
>
>The denunciation sessions are the only part that is characteristic of the
>Baha'i faith. Most of my friends have had them with ABMs or Counselors.
>
>> 6. The leadership dictates sometimes in great detail how members
>> should think, act,and feel (for example: members must get
permission
>> from leaders to date, change jobs, get married; leaders
>> may prescribe what types of clothes to wear, where to
>> live, how to discipline children, and so forth).
>
>Only mildly so among Baha'is. They have sometimes been told where they can
>live (not in Palestine/Israel, e.g.).
It is more subtle in the Bahai Faith but should be described
as "mild" in my opinion.
>
>> 7. The group is elitist, claiming a special, exalted status for
>> itself, its leader(s), and members (for example: the leader is
>> considered the Messiah or an avatar; the group and/or the leader
>> has a special mission to save humanity).
>
>This is characteristic of a lot of Baha'is.
The afnans and personality worship should be considered
here: "prominent."
>
>> 8. The group has a polarized us- versus-them mentality, which causes
>> conflict with the wider society.
>
>The polarization is often there (New World Order versus Old World Order,
>corrupt liberal democracy versus campaignless elections), but not the
>conflict.
Trb has revealed this bias against free speech often....
>
>> 9. The group's leader is not accountable to any authorities (as
>> are, for example, military commanders and ministers, priests,
>> monks, and rabbis of mainstream denominations).
>
>The UHJ is certainly not accountable to any outside body. No figures are
>given for members' salaries and perquisites (which are rumored to be very
>high). They order Counselors to push people out of the faith and then deny
>they did so, etc., etc.
There is a long litany now of casualties, carefully concealed
from the new converts. Again, the frenzy to oppose trb has
often been motivated by a desire to hide the truth on such
things....
>
>> 10. The group teaches or implies that its supposedly exalted ends
>> justify means that members would have considered unethical before
>> joining the group (for example: collecting money for bogus charities).
>
>Some Baha'is fall into this.
True.
>
>> 11. The leadership induces guilt feelings in members in order to control
>> them.
>
>This is done in every issue of the American Baha'i.
I'm glad Juan has brought the "American" Bahai, a piece of
propaganda trash I unsubscribed to 2 and half years ago
out of disgust with the ever-worsening fanaticism and banality
of the thing. I was shocked to receive a letter questioning my
basic "loyalty" to the covenant and Baha'u'llah when I had merely
asked that I not receive it anymore.... Clearly, it serves other
purposes.
>
>> 12. Members' subservience to the group causes them to cut ties with
>> family and friends, and to give up personal goals and activities
>> that were of interest before joining the group.
>
>Not typical of the Baha'i faith.
It does happen. I've seen it. Many marriages are destroyed and
so forth.
>
>> 13. Members are expected to devote inordinate amounts of time to the
>> group.
>
>Can happen.
Often does, wrecking again families and marriages.
>
>> 14. Members are encouraged or required to live and/or socialize only
>> with other group members
>
>Not typical of the Baha'i faith.
ISOLATION, though, does take place and can be encouraged
in some cases.
>
>> USED WITH PERMISSION
>> Copyright ©1996 American Family Foundation, Inc. - A
>> secular, nonprofit, tax-exempt research center and educational
>> corporation, Bonita Springs, Florida All rights reserved.
>
>
>I think we may conclude that the Baha'i community in the U.S. is very far
from
>being in the 'dangerous cult' category of the first list. But it does
score
>pretty high on the AFF checklist merely for 'cults'.
Overall, I would include it in the cult category.
>
>What I would conclude, then, is that most Baha'is are not cultists, but
there
>are some cultists who are Baha'is, and some of them are extremely powerful.
>The way the community is structured, with manipulated national and
>international elections, infallible and unchallengeable leaders, and no
>accountability for their actions or even in how money is spent, tends to
>enable cult-like behavior on the part of some. But I think the high values
>of the Baha'i scriptures, with their emphasis on human dignity, militate
>against these tendencies, and that in the long run the community will be
able
>to overcome some of its current bad habits.
>
>
>Juan Cole
>History, U of Michigan
>https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai.htm
I'm not so confident as Juan. While I agree all of the above
corruption takes place in the Bahai Faith, I doubt it can be
remedied. I often expect it only to worsen or continue.
Business is good as it is; why risk changing it? What would
be the motivation?
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 1999 8:52 AM
Subject: Re: bickering intellectuals
Smaneck wrote in message <19990126142356.22194.00004332@ng-fi1.aol.com>...
>My opposition to talk.religion.bahai was based solely on the slander being
used
>to promote it. As for trying to get myself appointed Forum Leader, I was
asked
>by several people to serve in that capacity who themselves arranged for my
>nomination. I never sought or volunteered for the postion.
Maneck's deceitful accusations of "slander" and references to my
opinions as "garbage" may be read at
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/Maneck1.htm
One can understand why now she would wish to suppress the truth
of this record.
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 1999 8:58 AM
Subject: Re: destroying intellectuals
Smaneck wrote in message <19990126164707.22194.00004429@ng-fi1.aol.com
>There was never a campaign for a no vote. I suggested that anyone on the
AOL
>Message Board that objected to the slander you were putting up in order to
>promote your list to register their dissatisfaction by voting no.
Subsequently
>for the week proceeding the end of the call for votes you stopped doing
this.
>Therefore I made no further mention of it
>on AOL and did not even bother to vote myself. I'm sure you know this from
>examining the no votes.
You're a deceitful liar, like so many Bahais....
>But I'm still waiting to hear what you have to say about Juan's assertion
that
>the kind of thing you are doing on your website is illegal.
My, you're desperate to suppress the truth....
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/Maneck1.htm
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 1999 9:17 AM
Subject: Re: Juan Cole=Pseudo-Baha'i
> Dear Juan,
>
> You were _never_ a Baha'i, dear sir, but a Humanist in Baha'i clothing.
You
> were, in fact, a "Pseudo-Baha'i" (I'm being kind here). You saw the Faith
as
> a "way" to universalize some Liberal social-goals. I'm sure you hoped that
> you and other Humanist intellectuals such as yourself could "mold" the
Faith
> into the perfect Humanist/New Age Religion; ...
This passage reveals quite well the ignorant fanaticism
of many Bahais, especially the Iranians who run it like a
family business.... Here we have what is always concealed
from the new convert, under the requirements of "hikmat,"
until he or she "matures" enough to understand this is
indeed the Bahai "truth" for all those "loyal" to the "covenant."
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 1999 9:37 AM
To: Ruletherod@aol.com
Subject: Fw: soc.religion.bahai - brief quotations
Are Maneck's comments below true?
I'd appreciate hearing from you.
Fred
-----Original Message-----
From: Smaneck <smaneck@aol.com>
Newsgroups: talk.religion.bahai
Date: Saturday, January 23, 1999 11:45 AM
Subject: soc.religion.bahai - brief quotations
>Fred Glaysher put up a bunch of quotations from people in connection with
>soc.religion.bahai leaving readers with the impression that all of these
>individuals had been victims of censorship on newsgroup. I would like to
point
>out that some of the people Fred quoted knew nothing about that newsgroup,
>whatsoever. I just communicated with Ruletherod, for instance, who when I
>asked him about his experience of censorship on soc.religion.bahai wrote me
the
>following:
>
>"What is soc.baha'i relig. I've honestly never kept track. I think all if
the
>things he's taken were from Talisman and AOL Bahai boards--where I've
remained"
>
>
>As in the case of Rachel's message, Mr. Glaysher apparently has no qualms
about
> taking people's statements completely out of the context. I wonder how
many
>others he has done this with?
>warmest,
>
>Susan
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 1999 9:38 AM
To: rreini@wwnet.net
Subject: Re: soc.religion.bahai - brief quotations
Roger,
Please let me know the person's name.
Fred
-----Original Message-----
From: Roger Reini <rreini@wwnet.net>
Newsgroups: talk.religion.bahai
Date: Saturday, January 23, 1999 8:02 PM
Subject: Re: soc.religion.bahai - brief quotations
>I have another observation: I believe that one of the individuals
>quoted in the posting is actually a Covenant breaker. I recall
>reading the formal notification of that individual's expulsion from
>the Faith in "The American Baha'i", and I also recall that individual
>posting to alt.religion.bahai. This happened about 1 1/2 to 2 years
>ago.
>
>If my recollection is correct (you'll not I am not identifying the
>individual here), then it's understandable that he/she would claim
>that he/she was being censored by the moderators on s.r.b, as his/her
>submissions violated the charter of the newsgroup.
>
>
>On 23 Jan 1999 16:45:38 GMT, smaneck@aol.com (Smaneck) wrote:
>
>>Fred Glaysher put up a bunch of quotations from people in connection with
>>soc.religion.bahai leaving readers with the impression that all of these
>>individuals had been victims of censorship on newsgroup. I would like to
point
>>out that some of the people Fred quoted knew nothing about that newsgroup,
>>whatsoever. I just communicated with Ruletherod, for instance, who when I
>>asked him about his experience of censorship on soc.religion.bahai wrote
me the
>>following:
>>
>>"What is soc.baha'i relig. I've honestly never kept track. I think all if
the
>>things he's taken were from Talisman and AOL Bahai boards--where I've
remained"
>>
>>
>>As in the case of Rachel's message, Mr. Glaysher apparently has no qualms
about
>> taking people's statements completely out of the context. I wonder how
many
>>others he has done this with?
>>warmest,
>>
>>Susan
>
>Roger (rreini@wwnet.net)
>https://fp-www.wwnet.net/~rreini/
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 1999 12:31 PM
Subject: Re: Juan Cole=Pseudo-Baha'i
Since apparently Darrick was the author, I am in
error here; otherwise, my comments remain the valid.
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 1999 12:41 PM
Subject: Re: Attacking the Baha'i Faith
McKenny Michael wrote in message <78n7o5$5tj@freenet-news.carleton.ca>...
Then the language of your new world order
>too closely resembles the newspeak of Orwell's 1984, and, gods willing,
>that lies behind us in the trash bin of human history.
Orwell really is the most appropriate analog for much
of the Bahai-speak one hears on and off line today....
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 1999 4:33 PM
To: Roger Reini
Subject: Re: soc.religion.bahai - brief quotations
>I believe it was "jgoldberg", which I believe is a reference to Jeffrey
>Goldberg. I'm not 100% certain, but I'm pretty sure of this.
Thanks, Roger. I shouldn't work on maybes though. Don't
want to make any mistakes any such a sensitive issue.
Fred
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, January 28, 1999 7:08 AM
Subject: Re: destroying intellectuals
Here's Ruletherod's response to me regarding Susan's
slanders and false accusations:
Subj: Fwd: Fw: soc.religion.bahai - brief quotations
Date: 1/27/1999 4:20:47 PM Eastern Standard Time
From: Ruletherod
To: FG
CC: Ruletherod
No, the statement is incorrect, as I told Susan. But the mistake is mine
because I was caught unprepared (she sent me an IM), when she asked me, and
I couldn't remember where exactly I'd been before settling with the Baha'i
AOL boards. Susan said she'd be prepared to apologize for the mistake (after
I corrected her) as she seemed to be facing some deadline, hence the hurry
on her part at the time.
You can disregard the statement as it presently stands. I did recall,
moments after she signed off, that I did visit the kind of moderated
(censored) Baha'i website in question--and I quickly e-mailed Susan with the
correction. I told her that I was only interested in being honest and I
wasn't interested in "stabbing" you in the back.
I hope this clears this up for you. Although my visit to the censored
website was brief (forgive me for forgetting the name and the people
involved--I haven't looked for my records from last summer/fall), my
postings were censored and I complained about it to two moderators
overseeing the site (in a series of e-mails). But Susan felt my description
of the site (in the end) did support your assertions--even though she
disagreed with your strategy.
Best wishes, as always
-----------------
Forwarded Message:
Subj: Fw: soc.religion.bahai - brief quotations
Date: 1/27/1999 8:36:53 AM Eastern Standard Time
From: FG@hotmail.com (FG)
To: Ruletherod@aol.com
Are Maneck's comments below true?
I'd appreciate hearing from you.
Fred
-----Original Message-----
From: Smaneck <smaneck@aol.com>
Newsgroups: talk.religion.bahai
Date: Saturday, January 23, 1999 11:45 AM
Subject: soc.religion.bahai - brief quotations
>Fred Glaysher put up a bunch of quotations from people in connection with
>soc.religion.bahai leaving readers with the impression that all of these
>individuals had been victims of censorship on newsgroup. I would like to
point
>out that some of the people Fred quoted knew nothing about that newsgroup,
>whatsoever. I just communicated with Ruletherod, for instance, who when I
>asked him about his experience of censorship on soc.religion.bahai wrote me
the
>following:
>
>"What is soc.baha'i relig. I've honestly never kept track. I think all if
the
>things he's taken were from Talisman and AOL Bahai boards--where I've
remained"
>
>
>As in the case of Rachel's message, Mr. Glaysher apparently has no qualms
about
> taking people's statements completely out of the context. I wonder how
many
>others he has done this with?
>warmest,
>
>Susan
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From: "FG" <FG@hotmail.com>
To: <Ruletherod@aol.com>
Subject: Fw: soc.religion.bahai - brief quotations
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 08:37:16 -0500
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----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, January 28, 1999 7:15 AM
Subject: Re: The Bahai Technique
During the last year and a half, a number of observers have noted
several common methods many Bahais use to avoid various issues
or discredit people who hold opinions other than their own:
FG, May 12, 1992:
"The Baha'i Faith has become very oppressive and manipulative of
the individual. That to me is merely a statement of fact, as I
have experienced it, for nearly sixteen years now [over 22]. The usual
stratagem in dealing with anyone who would express his conscience
in good faith is to pretend the Cause is above any kind of
criticism whatsoever while intimating that anyone who would speak
honestly must have something wrong with him, i.e., his spiritual
life isn't what it should be, he doesn't understand the nature of
unity, or he's accused of trying to obtain power for himself,
which at times seems merely a calculated way of discrediting the
person, and so on. Another common strategy used to acquire
control over the individual is to humor the person by letting him
pour himself out, etc., and then self-righteously giving him the
Truth."
Ron House, November 14, 1997:
"I know what you mean. I've found over the years that
there is a technique used by traditional Baha'is and
others to squash dissension: harry the dissenter so
much he says something intemperate, then point out
how 'loving' and 'compassionate' they are and how
nasty the dissenter is. The trouble is that this
technique works, so I've been making a conscious
effort not to fall for it. Also, when they get the
dissenter discouraged and miserable enough, he
invariably makes a slip-up sooner or later that they
can REALLY let loose the venom over. IMHO, they did
this to you when you misread Sharon's intentions.
At any other time, they would overlook faults, as
Baha'u'llah says, but when they're in this mode
they go for the jugular. Very sad."
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/House2.htm
FG, June 1998:
"Some of the most striking methods demonstrated repeatedly by
many Bahais during the last year and a half of discussion about
an unmoderated newsgroup is their refusal to listen and respond to
the criticisms of those who are in favor of talk.religion.bahai,
ignoring their concerns, never responding analytically to their
messages and reasoning and logic and evidence, attacking them
through character assassination and ad hominem, ganging up
on individuals, and "circling the wagons" around every action
of the srb moderators or others who are opposed to
talk.religion.bahai."
"More than twenty different people on my web site have posted messages
explaining their experience with srb censorship yet many srb Bahais
NEVER address their concerns. Ignoring such charges will not make
them go away. NO ONE has to "try" to link the trb interest poll with
censorship on srb; the moderators themselves have done that by
suppressing droves of people for years. There are many people who
believe such suppression is part and parcel of the Bahai
community as it exists today. A YES vote need not necessarily
support such a belief. There are other reasons Bahais might vote
YES."
Fran Baker, May 1998:
"Just have to say that in my experience this is a common
technique of manipulative people in general; it is especially
effective with thoughtful people who are willing to see both
sides of things, i.e., their own fault. I consider this brow-beating
technique to be a form of abuse. The only way to deal with it is
to call them on it every time and to refuse to let yourself be beat
up, i.e., not to do your part of the "tango." This can be very hard
to do, but it works.You can break this pattern in a personal
relationship. I don't know whether it's possible when a group
acts this way. Very scary."
Dr. Juan Cole, June 12, 1998:
"Let me ask you why in the world you think that I would risk my professional
reputation by publicly stating falsehoods? ...The very technique of the
more glaze-eyed among these people is to unbearably bully a Baha'i whom
they don't like, use unjustified threats of declaring him or her a CB to
silence the individual, and if the person will not be silenced, then to
depend upon the gullibility of the Baha'is in refusing to listen to any
victim's story because, of course, the Baha'i institutions are infallible
and divinely guided and could never do anything wrong. It is a perfect
racket."
"Of course, this technique of making liberals go away has been enormously
successful, and ex-Baha'i liberals have no credibility with the remaining
Baha'is nor do most of them have any energy to continue to make a case,
either to the Baha'is or the outside world, for the incredible abuses that
go on inside this organization ostensibly committed to tolerance!"
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/Cole10.htm
K. Paul Johnson, September 15, 1998:
"If that principle [people are innocent until proven guilty]
were followed by Baha'i administration and individuals in
their condemnations of their fellow believers, I
would have very little to complain about regarding Baha'i
affairs. But character assassination by innuendo is the
preferred way of dealing with anything remotely resembling
dissidence. Seems like that's exactly what you're doing to Juan
Cole in your message. Saying I don't want to know what you've
"got" on him, thus attacking me but insinuating you have some
awful proof of unspecified guilt on his part. If that's not
character assassination by innuendo, what is?"
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/Johnson18.htm
Gibro28W, October 12, 1998:
"In summary, the biggest problem, as I see it,
is that most Baha'is don't take criticism seriously--they tune it out as
"negative" or "harmful to spiritual growth." This selfish
attitude is very stupid. First of all, Baha'is entice people to join them.
When they do, they indoctrinate them until they think like the group. But as
soon as a red flare of doubt goes up in the convert's mind, they're cordoned
off by the group and reminded of their "spiritual" obligations in the name
of Baha'u'llah or the "Covenant." If left unresolved and doubt gives vent to
prolonged criticism, the convert is sent packing or is kicked out. What
we have here is a broken family that had failed to truly listen to the needs
of its members in the first place."
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/srb73.htm
Barthaman on September 14, 1998:
"Baha'i dissenters, more or less, are wounded souls abandoned
by their fathers,so-to-speak. They have been cast out and
dismissed or shunned without having had a fair hearing. Consider
their pain when the rest of their "family" dismisses them too.
Can you know what it's like to be accused of heresy and shunned
following a sincere intellectual conflict (inspired by doubt)--
after you've sacrificed years in devoted service to your religion?
Can you comprehend their sense of betrayal and injustice? This is
why disillusioned believers leave their religions each year--while
some still hang around, banging on the door now and then, demanding
a refund for their lost youth. In time they will have to move on,
however, writing the Baha'i Faith off as another lesson in fraud.
Mock these people all you want--but for the grace of God, the next
dissenter could be you. Don't be too confident, my friend."
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/srb66.htm
Cf. K. Paul Johnson's general reflections on coercive techniques
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/Johnson21.htm
And LaAeterna's method of silencing opponents
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/srb65.htm
This document at
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/technique.htm
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, January 28, 1999 7:31 AM
Subject: Re: What is a Cult?
jrcole@umich.edu wrote in message <78om8c$9br$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>
>
>Dear JayLiz:
>
>I don't think that most of the problems in the community affect most
Baha'is
>most of the time, and that is why there is not more of an uproar (besides,
>people tend to vote with their feet by just leaving).
>
>I would make the following suggestions:
>
>1) If an Assistant or an Auxiliary Board Member or a Counselor calls you to
>a meeting to insist that you fall silent about some issue, simply firmly
tell
>him or her that Shoghi Effendi said Baha'is have the right to declare their
>conscience and express their views. And then post a full account of this
>attempt to browbeat you right here on the Net.
A sample may be found from the end of the first interest poll:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/To-UHJ1.htm
>
>2) If a Baha'i body seems to you to be wasting the money you give it or is
>not being fully accountable for how it spends your money, don't give it any
>more. Restrict your donation to your local assembly if you think it is
doing
>a good job, or restrict the donation to "charitable purposes" (Baha'i
>institutions are supposed to be doing *way* more charity work than they
do).
>
>3) If you are a writer, insist on publishing without Baha'i prepublication
>censorship.
More on that shortly....
>
>4) If someone suggests to you that you cannot disagree with some policy
you
>think is wrong because the author of the policy is infallible, tell that
>person that only God is infallible and all human beings make mistakes,
>including the Baha'i institutions.
>
>Basically, just don't allow yourself to be boxed in to a very authoritarian
>situation, where if some Baha'i body ever actually does order you to drink
>poisoned coolaid or do something unethical or be silent about something
>unethical, you are still in a psychological frame of mind where you can
tell
>them to jump in a lake.
>
>I myself dissent from the idea that the problem in any way resides in one
>ethnicity more than another. Lots of Iranian Baha'is have seen all the
scams
>the AO types pull and are far more chary of them and canny about them than
a
>lot of ernest Americans.
There are perceptive Iranians, it is true. Most, in my opinion,
run the family business and know it's in their best interest to
keep doing so....
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, January 28, 1999 7:35 AM
Subject: Re: Nostalgia in ex-Baha'is
K. Paul Johnson wrote in message <36ae23cf.0@vlinsvr>...
>I found Matthew's post quite moving, and can sympathize with his
>plight. Although my years as a Baha'i were fewer than his and
>started later, there is still a feeling of nostalgia for what
>Baha'i life was back in the early 70s, for the dreams we all
>shared
So did I and have gone back a couple of times to reread it.
Thanks, Matthew, for baring your soul with us.... I think you've
found the words to express what many, many people have
experienced with the Bahai Faith.
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, January 28, 1999 7:48 AM
Subject: Re: rmgroup: soc.religion.bahai (Re: Annotated NO voters - 3rd interest poll)
Roger Reini wrote in message <36adfa56.15698928@news.newsguy.com>...
>
>Actually, I believe that the membership of the BCCA consists of every
>Baha'i in good standing who subscribes to one or more of the mailing
>lists sponsored by the association, including the s.r.b newsgroup.
>The Co-ordinating Committee has been elected from the membership, and
>I am sure that continues to be the case (unfortunately, I did not
>participate in the last election).
I've never seen such a vote announced.... WHO are the members
of the BCCA today? Even that fact seems to be hidden and
suppressed....
>
>While the BCCA has recently gained the sponsorship of the National
>Spiritual Assembly of the Baha'is of the United States, it would be
>inaccurate to say that the membership of the community was selected by
>the National Spiritual Assembly or any other Baha'i institution.
The NSA then is responsible as well for the BCCA's attacks on
talk.religion.bahai and freedom of speech and liberty....
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, January 28, 1999 7:58 AM
Subject: Re: rmgroup: soc.religion.bahai
Chris Manvell wrote in message ...
>
>Your removal from various Baha'i only discussion groups (not SRB) was
>not at the instigation of the BCCA but at the request of the
>participants on those groups.
This is all false as can be. Those wishing to read the evidence
may do so at
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/archive.htm
As it was, after your removal from these
>lists, I subscribed to several of them and found that many people who
>had been against TRB first time round were gradually turning towards the
>idea of creating the group.
Complete duplicity in my opinon....
Some of these people then followed my
>advice and subscribed to news.groups in order to take part in the
>discussions there. Not all, in the end, voted for the group, finding
>what they read on NG totally unpalatable.
Chris, as far as I'm concerned, you don't have any integrity
left. You have been deceitful and dishonest, if not all along, for
well over a year. Those interested in reading what takes place
on BCCA mailing lists can do so at this link:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/archive.htm
>
>
>Quite frankly the idea of a world where "free speech" is the order of
>the day is horrific.
Here we have a Bahai revealing what many actually believe,
unlike Abdul-Baha, about that filthy Western concept of
free speech....
>>There can be no doubt that the Bahai Universal House of
>>Justice itself has condoned the actions of the BCCA and
>>soc.religion.bahai.
>
>This is the sort of statement that comes into the "free speech" category
>I mention above. You should supply documentary evidence to support this
>statement as to state that it is beyond doubt implies that you have
>clear irrefutable evidence, even if it is second hand. If you don't then
>to make these sorts of assertions is criminal.
Trying to protect the duplicitious? Again, the evidence is in
the over two year record of opposition to free speech; add to it
the hounding and harassing of anyone who doesn't toe the party
line, irrefutably document over the past ten years on my website.
For the BCCA see
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/archive.htm
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, January 28, 1999 8:04 AM
Subject: Re: rmgroup: soc.religion.bahai (Re: Annotated NO voters - 3rd interest poll)
Smaneck wrote in message <19990126174209.22194.00004459@ng-fi1.aol.com>...
>
>>The BCCA's complicity in the two years of opposition to
>>talk.religion.bahai is indisputable
>
>Never mind that as many of those in positions of leadership within BCCA
have
>voted *trb* as have voted against it! Most, of course, abstained.
This is false. First of all, who EXACTLY, by name, are the
members of the BCCA? I know for certain only of a few.
Please list the full roster here. Second, a carefully calculated
margin to assure they could claim anything whatever the outcome
is not convincing whatsoever....
>
>and were involved in
>>attempting to defeat the proposal once again this third
>>time through putting together the same carefully calculated NO
>>vote that succeeded the 2nd time in scuttling the proposal.
>
>Oh? My understanding is that "no" votes did *not* scuttle the proposal the
>second time. There simply weren't enough "yes" votes.
There were 109 YES votes. The NO votes DID defeat it.
>
>> it should be clear that
>>Bahais did not vote for nor pass the talk.religion.bahai
>>proposal.
>
>Which certainly suggests that it would not be in the interests of Baha'is
to
>get rid of soc.religion.bahai. Apparently, they like that newsgroup
better.
Hah, hah, hah....
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, January 28, 1999 8:06 AM
Subject: Re: rmgroup: soc.religion.bahai (Re: Annotated NO voters - 3rd interest poll)
>Ron House wrote in message <36AEA887.42EE953E@usq.edu.au>...
>>
>>This isn't true. Scanning the list, I see positively heaps of names of
>>Baha'is and Persian names (likely Baha'is).
I'm waiting, Ron, for the list of the "heaps" of Bahais who voted
YES....
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, January 28, 1999 8:50 AM
Subject: fw CCrawfeild Beware!!!!
Subject: Beware!!!!
Date: 1/27/1999 2:48 PM Eastern Standard Time
From: CCrawfeild
Message-id: <19990127144808.00826.00001343@ng-ch1.aol.com>
Anyone interested in this faith should take the time to question some of
the Bahi members. This is just my opinion, but, I have found a lot of the
Bahi membership completely change colors when you call into question any
concern you have.
I have been harassed, bullied, even had rocks thrown at me by so-called
bahi's. There "words" are very attractive to smart sensitive people looking
to come to turns with a lot of today's spiritual questions, but when you dig
a little deeper a very self protective cult emerges.
I'm just saying BE CAREFUL.
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Friday, January 29, 1999 7:55 AM
Subject: Re: Baha'u'llah's Tablet of Maqsud, on human unity, pt. 3
jrcole@umich.edu wrote in message <78nnuf$em9$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>
>Thanks for your comments. I can't for the most part tell whether the odd
>bits or mistranslations in the official versions of some Tablets published
>since 1963 are ideologically loaded and deliberate or whether they are
honest
>mistakes.
Some of the passages may be merely a matter of the
individual translator's taste, but I would have to say the passage
>>"the clerics of this age" (`ulama:-yi `as.r ) the official translation
>>gives: "the learned and worldly-wise men of this age."
was deliberately given this ideological spin; it's too far of a
stretch or abuse of the original text to have been only a linguistic
choice of synonyms, which this isn't even close to.... In this one
revealing passage, published for the first time apparently in 1978
in TOB, the fanaticism of the Bahai ulama asserts its crippling
control of Baha'u'llah's Revelation....
(I don't think some of the passages we are discussing had ever been
>translated before TOB). It seems to me very odd to translate the word
`ulama'
>in a 19th century Persian Tablet as anything but "Muslim clerics." It is
>true that in contemporary Arabic scientists are also called `ulama', with
the
>clerics demoted to al-`ulama' fi'd-Din or learned in religion, but this is
a
>modern development that can't be read back into the 19th century. I think
a
>large number of Baha'u'llah's Tablets condemning Absolutism (as-sultah
>al-mutlaqah), praising democracy, etc., have not been translated or widely
>published. I don't know why, for sure. It may be, as you say, that a
small
>clique of very powerful antiliberals are carefully ensuring that they not
see
>the light of day.
I don't see how the conclusion can be escaped. Every pronouncement
demonstrates that the more liberal, self-evident, and enlightened side
of the Writings mean less and less with every passing year....
>> You seem to neglect Baha'u'llah's passages relating to the
>> creation of an organizational structure of some type. Metaphysically
>> speaking, I agree with you.
>
>The only organizational structure Baha'u'llah mandated was the houses of
>justice, and these were imagined original as democratic. Only in the
course
>of the mid-20th century were their more democratic features gradually
gutted
>and were they turned into Soviets of a sort.
It seems this way to me too. In the Star of the West Abdul-Baha is
very much progressively learning more about the West and benefitting
from his contact with it at all levels. He clearly, consciously incorporates
much from that experience. The party line has been to resolutely deny
any of the figures learnt anything FROM the West--all is revelation and
hikmat....
>> Can you speculate on why it appears so many Iranian Bahais
>> and others have ended up in such a fanatical mindset? Why
>> have they joined ranks with Khomeini?
>
>I'm not comfortable ethnicizing the issue of theocracy.
Juan, all crude racial insinuations aside, the Bahai Faith
is dominated by one racial group--it's indisputable, and we
all know it's true.... To fail to take account of that dominance,
leading often to abuse, would prevent an objective assessment
of how decisions are often made behind the facade of peace
and unity....
Many Baha'is have
>authoritarian personalities, regardless of ethnicity, and theocracy seems
to
>appeal to them. Horace Holley, a WASP, was very much like that. It is
very
>odd that Baha'u'llah's extensive disavowals of any desire for theocracy,
>`Abdul-Baha's careful erection of walls of separation between religion and
>state, and Shoghi Effendi's admonition that the Baha'i administration
should
>never be allowed to supersede the machinery of state, should all have been
>shouldered aside by a zealous desire for theocracy. I can't explain it.
I agree with you that there are many Bahais of other racial backgrounds
who have totalitarian personalities. No dispute there. The fact remains
that the Bahai Faith came out of the Iranian culture and has brought
and retained much of the debilitating debris from that milieu. I would
cite the common Iranian racist mentality against the West and America,
etc.... Any experienced and intelligently sensitive Bahai ought to be able
to think of many examples....
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Friday, January 29, 1999 8:01 AM
Subject: Re: rmgroup: soc.religion.bahai (Re: Annotated NO voters - 3rd interest poll)
Roger,
Please post the names of the members of the BCCA
coordinating committee. I'd appreciate your emailing them,
if you feel you must, for their permission to come out
into the open.
For the BCCA's attack on me during the 2nd interest poll
and their completely indefensible abuse of my right to
subscribe to Bahai-Discuss and other BCCA lists, see
the now annotated menu at
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/archive.htm
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Friday, January 29, 1999 8:04 AM
Subject: Re: rmgroup: soc.religion.bahai
Vintage Maneck slander....
"The Bahai Technique":
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/technique.htm
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Friday, January 29, 1999 8:11 AM
Subject: Re: rmgroup: soc.religion.bahai
The evidence demonstrating the collusion of the BCCA
with Bahai fundamentalists to undermine the support for
talk.religion.bahai during the 2nd interest poll is overwhelming.
It should obvious to fair-minded people that Bahais like
Mr. Schaut are very, very afraid of the evidence are indulging
in slander techniques against me. Please be sure to read or
skim through the brief 33k file of my pleas to the BCCA that
they intervene on Bahai-Discuss to prevent the fanatics from
once again disrupting an orderly interest poll. The brief Samplers
should also be looked at and will give you a taste of what the
1 megabyte file of messages from Bahai-Discuss have to say
about talk.religion.bahai....
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/archive.htm
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Friday, January 29, 1999 8:14 AM
Subject: Re: rmgroup: soc.religion.bahai (Re: Annotated NO voters - 3rd interest poll)
Smaneck wrote in message <19990128103250.01117.00000132@ng-ch1.aol.com>...
>>
>>This is false. First of all, who EXACTLY, by name, are the
>>members of the BCCA? I know for certain only of a few.
>>Please list the full roster here.
>
>I wasn't talking about the membership (which I suppose would be anyone who
>subscribes to any of their lists, I was talking about the leadershp. And to
>prove my case, I don't have to know all their names.
The non-Bahai observer will note the effort to continue to
conceal the membership of the BCCA coordinating committee....
One supposedly elected....
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Friday, January 29, 1999 8:17 AM
Subject: Re: rmgroup: soc.religion.bahai (Re: Annotated NO voters - 3rd interest poll)
"The Bahai Technique":
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/technique.htm
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Friday, January 29, 1999 8:48 AM
To: Ruletherod@aol.com
Subject: Fw: destroying intellectuals
Rule,
FYI just to be sure she's not making false
claims against ya....
-----Original Message-----
From: Smaneck <smaneck@aol.com>
Newsgroups: talk.religion.bahai
Date: Thursday, January 28, 1999 11:45 AM
Subject: Re: destroying intellectuals
>I made an error in the last post. It should have read that Rule did retract
his
>statement that he had never been censored on SRB.
>warmest,
>
>Susan
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Friday, January 29, 1999 8:49 AM
To: Ruletherod@aol.com
Subject: Fw: destroying intellectuals
ditto
-----Original Message-----
From: Smaneck <smaneck@aol.com>
Newsgroups: talk.religion.bahai
Date: Thursday, January 28, 1999 10:45 AM
Subject: Re: destroying intellectuals
>Ruletherod did later retract his statment that he had been censored on SRB
>(although he sitll wasn't sure that was the list.) He also did not seem to
>think that the statement Fred had posted of his had anything to do with it.
>Rule also told me that the moderator in question had told him he could
repost
>his message if it was re-written in a "non-threatening and respectful
manner"
>suggesting that the problem with Rule's post revolved around something
which
>any moderated list is designed to control.
>warmest,
>
>Susan
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Friday, January 29, 1999 9:05 AM
Subject: Re: What is a Cult?
jrcole@umich.edu wrote in message <78qtni$6s6$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>
>
>Dear Brian:
>
>You wrote:
>
>> I have yet to hear any Assistant or ABM suggest I or anyone else be
silent
>about
>> any issue. I do hear that I should avoid reading CB material, or entering
>> discussion with CB, but that is another matter.
>
>You no doubt are not aware that it is fairly common for auxiliary board
>members and counselors to take Baha'is aside and warn them to be silent on
>certain issues. Of course, you don't hear about these events, because most
>Baha'is who are browbeaten in this way do fall silent, or else withdraw
from
>the faith. Frequently a dire overtone is adopted by the auxiliary board
>members and counselors indicating that the person being counselled is in
>contravention of the covenant and may end up being shunned if he or she
>continues to speak publicly on these issues. However, the issues concerned
>do not usually concern what most rational observers would consider
>'covenantal'--i.e. they have nothing to do with 17th Guardians & etc. Lots
>of Baha'is have contacted me privately with their stories of such
repression,
>and I have been carefully archiving these cases.
For the attempt of an "Auxiliary Board" member to do this with
me at the end of the first interest poll for talk.religion.bahai, see
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/To-UHJ1.htm
>
>Among the hot button questions that seem to elicit this response are the
>question of women's service on the Universal House of Justice, the scope of
>the latter body's infallibility, the ability of Baha'is to dissent publicly
>from official policy, and even occasionally theological issues such as
>whether God is a person or an impersonal essence. One Baha'i professor was
>upbraided by a counselor for simply saying on the internet that Baha'i
>metaphysics has a background in Neoplatonism.
What could be more obvious!!! The Hidden Words are FULL of
Neoplatonic thought....
Another man I know was
>investigated for renting a room to an unrelated woman. In another instance
>an NSA member threatened an LSA secretary for writing too many letters to
>National that did not display the proper tone. I have been informed of
>literally dozens of such incidents over the past three years.
>
>It is true that usually such demands for silence are directed at persons
int
>eh community who are felt by the counselors and ABMs to be particularly
>eloquent exponents of views the latter dislike, who are 'prominent,' or who
>are felt to be provoking too much discussion by the expression of their
>views. Lots of ordinary Baha'is are never bothered in this way no matter
>what they say, and so they take away the impression that no one is ever
>bothered or silenced, which simply is not true.
As long as they're dumb cattle, sending in their money, they're left
alone....
>
>>
>> > 2) If a Baha'i body seems to you to be wasting the money you give it
or is
>> > not being fully accountable for how it spends your money, don't give it
any
>> > more. Restrict your donation to your local assembly if you think it is
doing
>> > a good job, or restrict the donation to "charitable purposes" (Baha'i
>> > institutions are supposed to be doing *way* more charity work than they
do).
>>
>> Juan - really - this is just what Baha'is have always done, at least in
my
>> experience in 3 continents and a lot more communities.
>
>I think it is scandalous that no full budget is published annually by the
>National Spiritual Assembly of the United States, which is thereby in
>contravention of the expection of the Illinois law on incorporated
nonprofit
>organizations that members of the organization will be apprised if they so
>desire of how their money is being spent. The salaries of the five NSA
>members who are paid for their services are also not released, nor the
value
>of the perquisites they receive. Don't you think this lack of candor on
>budgetary issues is suspicious?
>
>The unwillingness of some Baha'i institutions to be candid about budgets
>allows peculation to occur more easily, as when a member of the Phoenix LSA
>embezzled some $70,000 in the 1990s before finally being reported by a
fellow
>member of the LSA (the community would never have known about it! And what
>if the other LSA member had been less upright?).
The St. Louis Assembly lost $10,000 in a similar scam by its
"Treasurer." The NSA installed cameras to spy on its employees
at the National Center because so much money was disappearing....
Nary a word in the illustrious "American" Bahai....
>
>> > 4) If someone suggests to you that you cannot disagree with some
policy you
>> > think is wrong because the author of the policy is infallible, tell
that
>> > person that only God is infallible and all human beings make mistakes,
>> > including the Baha'i institutions.
>>
>> The only infallible one in this dispensation is Baha'u'llah. Has anyone
>suggested
>> otherwise?
>
>Rightwing Baha'is would like to spread the aura of infallibility over
pretty
>much all the Baha'i institutions, but especially the house of justice.
A number of similarly totalitarian personalities are beginning
to assert themselves here on talk.religion.bahai....
>
>>
>> So you compare the Baha'i administration with Jones and Deaths Gate?? I
have
>yet
>> to see anything unethical recommended by any Baha'i body on which I have
>served
>> or with which I have worked.
>
>I didn't compare anything with anything. I simply said that a wise person
>does not surrender his or her individual conscience and autonomy to
>supposedly 'infallible' leaders and then do unquestioningly whatever they
>command. That way lies Jonestown, however noble the initial pious
impulses.
The Bahai Faith has had its Jonestowns.... The murder of Dr. Daniel Jordan
remains unsolved. Given the atmosphere of oppression and deceit,
I continue to believe it quite possible that it was, as several other Bahais
last summer independently acknowledged had occurred to them, an
"inside job."
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Friday, January 29, 1999 9:09 AM
Subject: Re: ra'y as idiosyncratic legal opinion
Rick Schaut wrote in message <78o8d5$e4e@news3.newsguy.com>...
>
>
>I wouldn't have mentioned this, save that I think Dr. Cole's response is
>demonstrative of a pattern in his relationship to the Baha'i Faith. Dr.
>Cole is, admittedly, an expert in a number of fields of study. However,
Dr.
>Cole has repeatedly demonstrated a very poor understanding of the Baha'i
>Faith.
Ad hominem--Mr. Schaut is back "schauting" once again....
"The Bahai Technique":
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/technique.htm
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Friday, January 29, 1999 9:18 AM
Subject: Re: fw CCrawfeild Beware!!!!
I don't live in the Bahai underworld so I'm not proficient with the
meaning of "perp." I'd appreciate your enlightening me on this
word, so important to the Bahai Gestapo....
HMCMESOON wrote in message <19990128224734.14593.00000736@ng31.aol.com>...
>I am a Baha'i and have had my life( and the life of my business partner)
>threatened via harassing phone calls (home, work, cellular) for the past 2+
>years.
>I met with a "regional counselor" who immediately stated that the "perp"
was
>either my husband (a non-bahai) or my business partners wife (an L.S.A.
>member). To my knowledge, this "counselor" knows neither party! Needless
to
>say I was dumbfounded by these heartless statements!
>Meanwhile, back at the ranch, my LSA has yet to be concerned with this
matter.
>In the meantime, I keep myself VERY distant from the bahai community for
fear
>of harm to my business partner and/or myself, and find comfort in knowing
that
>I can worship Bahaullah without having to participate in the "bahai
community".
>
>I truly appreciate any and all responses.
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Friday, January 29, 1999 9:42 AM
Subject: Re: Copyright
It should be obvious to most observers that the Bahai fundamentalists
and fanatics who have been caught attempting to intimidate, blackball,
bully, oppress, terrorize Bahais and non-Bahais through backchannel
email communication are now frantic to suppress the evidence of
their despipcable, self-righteous deeds....
If they lived up to the Writings of Baha'u'llah in the first place, they
wouldn't have anything to hide. I encourage anyone who receives
such threats and hate mail as I've received in the past to create a
website and post it online where the truth about such Bahai zealots
can be read by any truth-seeking person:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/To-UHJ1.htm
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/hate.htm
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/AOL.htm
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/Maneck1.htm
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Friday, January 29, 1999 10:57 AM
To: FG
Subject: 3 Issues
3 Issues remain here on the Bahai Forum:
alt.religion.bahai and talk.religion.bahai added to Newsgroups
on the main Bahai Forum Menu
Libraries functioning and accepting all postings to them and
uncensored by Bahais.
My web site The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience
added to Web Sites and all others freely accepted as well:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Friday, January 29, 1999 10:59 AM
Subject: 6,017+ hits - Bahai Faith & Religous Freedom of Conscience
This is what has the fundamentalists worried--the truth getting out....
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Monday, February 01, 1999 8:15 AM
Subject: Call for Manuscripts - - New Publisher
, a new publishing company, seeks primarily
manuscripts of poetry, fiction, and literary and social criticism.
The publisher will also consider works on or relating to the
Bahai Faith, especially manuscripts that may have been rejected
or suppressed through Bahai "review."
All submissions must include a Self Addressed Stamped Envelope
(SASE) or they will not be returned.
P. O. Box 81842
Rochester, Michigan 48308-1842 USA
earthrisepress@hotmail.com
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Monday, February 01, 1999 6:51 PM
Subject: Instructions - ask your ISP for talk.religion.bahai
David Bowie wrote in message <36b5eb74$0$4716@fountain.mindlink.net>...
>TRB has still not appeared on my server. Can someone repost the
>instructions on how to ask for it?
From: FG <FG@aol.com>
Subject: How is talk.religion.bahai promulgated?
Date: Wednesday, January 20, 1999 8:09 AM
FYI
From: D E Siegel <desiegel@aol.com>
Subject: Re: RESULT: talk.religion.bahai passes 218:63
Date: Wednesday, January 13, 1999 6:59 PM
sharaf@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>What happens now?
>
>How is the new newsgroup promulgated?
Sometime shortly after the end of the 5-day discussion period, David
Lawerence
will send out the newgroup msg. He will repeat it after 1 week and 1 month.
Many ISPs will automatically ad the group based on this msg. Some will not.
If your ISP doesn't have the group shortly, I suggest that you ask the
newsmaster there to add it (Try news@isp.net, or newsmaster@isp.net) Ask
politely. Include the msg ID of the results posting, and of the newgroup
msg.
Good luck.
-David E. Siegel
Siegel@ACM.ORG
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Monday, February 01, 1999 6:54 PM
To: FG
Subject: Add to alt/talk.relgion.bahai FAQ-history
From: FG <FG@aol.com>
Subject: How is talk.religion.bahai promulgated?
Date: Wednesday, January 20, 1999 8:09 AM
FYI
From: D E Siegel <desiegel@aol.com>
Subject: Re: RESULT: talk.religion.bahai passes 218:63
Date: Wednesday, January 13, 1999 6:59 PM
sharaf@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>What happens now?
>
>How is the new newsgroup promulgated?
Sometime shortly after the end of the 5-day discussion period, David
Lawerence
will send out the newgroup msg. He will repeat it after 1 week and 1 month.
Many ISPs will automatically ad the group based on this msg. Some will not.
If your ISP doesn't have the group shortly, I suggest that you ask the
newsmaster there to add it (Try news@isp.net, or newsmaster@isp.net) Ask
politely. Include the msg ID of the results posting, and of the newgroup
msg.
Good luck.
-David E. Siegel
Siegel@ACM.ORG
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 02, 1999 7:38 AM
Subject: Re: Annotated NO voters - 3rd interest poll
Ron House:
You have not answered, that I've noticed, my request for
you to document your suggestion that Bahais voted for
and passed the proposal for talk.religion.bahai. I maintain
that only approximately 27 Bahais voted YES. It seems
clear looking again at the RESULT that non-Bahais
interested in preserving free speech and conscience on
the Internet passed trb.
Soc.religion.bahai was it's own worst enemy. I would have to
cite a number of reasons talk.religion.bahai passed on the
third interest poll:
1. Srb banned all discussion or even mention of talk.religion.bahai
for nearly two years and apparently continues to do so.
2. Srb banned me for having a link on my website to Yahoo's
Bahai links which in turn had a link to a covenant breaker's
site, unequivocally revealing the fanaticism of the "moderators."
3. Srb then supposedly extended that ban to include all posters
to srb, though in point of fact they've continued to allow others
to post their web links.
4. Unlike the first two interest polls, my website created a memory
or record of Bahai abuse of freedom of speech and conscience
for the third poll that proved instrumental in documenting the
intrigues of fundamentalist Bahais.
5. Alt.religion.bahai continued to grow providing a free forum for
those concerned.
Please explain or defend your claim that Bahais voted YES for
talk.religion.bahai. It appears to me there was a carefully
calculated margin of votes essentially cancelling each other out,
just enough to defeat talk.religion.bahai once again had not enough
non-Bahais, news.groupies, and others demonstrated tyranny has
not yet triumphed on Usenet....
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
FG wrote in message <789oo1$l9s@news3.newsguy.com>...
>Searching www.dejanews.com for a history of posting to Usenet, the
>following results are obtained:
>
>Voted NO
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
>---
>B=Bahai
>N=no hits on www.dejanews.com or fewer than a recent dozen
>T=techie
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
>---
>22 Bahais voted NO (only 27 YES)
>10 Techies
>26 or more NO hits or so very few as to raise the question of
>the legitimacy of the email address.
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
>---
>mansouri#one.net.au Shahab Mansouri N
>dany.steyaert#ping.be Dany Steyaert T
>carol_bowie#mindlink.bc.ca David Bowie B
>towfiq#401kforum.com Mark Towfiq B
>Aerfani#aol.com Abbas Erfani B
>Hlpflhanna#aol.com Debbie Jenkins B
>Mac0000013#aol.com Dennis M. McDonnell B
>Starlet001#aol.com Katherine Mayerovitch N
>kimdv#best.com Kim DeVaughn T
>stainles#bga.com Dwight Brown T
>david.ritscher#bigfoot.com David Ritscher N
>r.woodlock#bigfoot.com Rachel Butson B
>lcs#zk3.dec.com Larry Smith games
>camm#enhanced.com Camm Maguire T
>caryenochr#enochsvision.comEnoch's Vision Cary Enoch N
>wcol#erols.com William Collins B
>tom-hodges#geocities.com Tom Hodges B
>aromatica45#hotmail.com Victoria Williams N
>bearone1#hotmail.com Gary Rosenbaum N
>fazlollahi#hotmail.com Ahmad Fazlollahi N
>rachel_t#hotmail.com Theresa McClendon N
>screamingb#hotmail.com Screaming Banshee N
>swatchking#hotmail.com Fred Tague N
>jjam#spica.hpl.hp.com Jim Jam N
>nightbrd#humboldt1.com Douglas Myers B
>shohre#itis.com Shohreh Mansouri B
>bruce.limber#juno.com Bruce D. Limber B
>lpolk01#juno.com Linda L Polk B
>palmtop#mailtag.com Bonnie Blanford N
>djull#mindspring.com David Jull N
>slr1bpz#mindspring.com George McCoy T
>bfwkendo#netvigator.com Brian Walker B
>chriseb#nortelnetworks.com Chris Ebenezer N
>dc#panix.com David W. Crawford T
>persia#persia.com Robert Moldenhauer B
>Sandy-Allan#dial.pipex.com Sandy Allan B
>billh#samoatelco.com Bill Hyman B
>doug.obrien#the-spa.com Doug O'Brien travel
>manialip#wowmail.com Kate Sparks N
>francis_uy#yahoo.com F Uy T
>Ekkehard.Uthke#gmx.de Ekkehard Uthke T
>naddy#mips.rhein-neckar.de Christian Weisgerber T
>cnelson#calpoly.edu Craig Nelson N
>aull#ll.mit.edu Brian Aull N
>rick#bcm.tmc.edu Richard H. Miller N
>kohli#mail.ameritel.net Pat Kohli B
>helenko#bellsouth.net Helen Oney a.fan. happyman
>cybrmage#dave-world.net Bud Polk B
>rogerb#foxinternet.net Roger Borseth B
>ellis#ftel.net Rick Ellis T
>vpdura#hiwaay.net Vic Dura N
>Scarecro#ime.net Tim Griffin N
>jcornell#lightspeed.net John B. Cornell N
>verbrugh#pionet.net Albert Verbrugh B
>okoboji#prodigy.net Loriann=20 B
>mehyar22#siol.net Mehyar Badii-Azandahi N
>scooter#taranaki.ac.nz Scooter B
>NUFAITH#wcnet.org Dennis Rule N
>tr8770#bristol.ac.uk Tom Richards N
>srm103#york.ac.uk Simon Mawhinney N
>merlin#A470.demon.co.uk Darren Wyn Rees N
>Graham#fragrant.demon.co.uk Graham Sorenson B
>leili#Justice.Medford.MA.US Leili Towfigh N
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>A few comments:
>
>Mark Towfiq, a member of the "BCCA," the Bahai
>Computer and Communication Association, the far
>right wing of the Universal House of Justice online,
>campaigned against the 1st proposal for talk.religion.bahai:
>https://members.tripod.com/~FG/Towfiq.htm
>BCCA at https://members.tripod.com/~FG/BCCA.txt
>
>Bill Hyman vowed as early as August 1997 to censor me
>and is a notorious "moderator" of soc.religion.bahai:
>https://members.tripod.com/~FG/srb29.htm
>
>Albert Verbrugh is also a "moderator" of soc.religion.bahai;
>William Collins is a Bahai "administrator" in South Africa.
>Robert Moldenhauer, Graham Sorenson, and Tom Hodges are
>extremely rigid minds whose fanatical outpourings may be read
>in my BCCA archive opposing the 2nd interest poll:
>https://209.185.180.230/~FG/Bahai-Discuss-Archive.txt
>
>This document available in a conveniently highlighted version:
>https://members.tripod.com/~FG/NOvoters3rd.htm
>
>Some might wish to compare this to the Annotated NO voters
>for the 2nd interest poll:
>https://members.tripod.com/~FG/NOvoters.htm
>
>FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
>https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
>alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
>
>
>
>
>
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 02, 1999 8:34 AM
To: FG
Subject: Fw: The Glaysher Technique
-----Original Message-----
From: starjo8853@my-dejanews.com <starjo8853@my-dejanews.com>
Newsgroups: alt.religion.bahai,talk.religion.bahai
Date: Tuesday, February 02, 1999 2:48 AM
Subject: Re: The Glaysher Technique
>Kathy - All of us here on TRB should be grateful to Fred whether or not we
>agree with his techniques (those are his talents from which we here are
>benefiting). I think it is quite refreshing for him to stand back and give
us
>all a chance to develop this new medium without his personality dominating
>(something he did when he was fighting for the right to have this free
>communication). I too am interested to see what he says. One thing we know
is
>that he has confided in us that the Faith is deep in his soul. It seems to
me
>that he is angry at where it has gone wrong or not lived up to the
principles
>that many Westerners were led to believe the Faith stands for. So I think
we
>need to understand how brave he has been and give him a break. I am sure
when
>he comes back it will be with lots to say......sometimes we have to soul
>search so we have something to say that is meaningful........regards, Star*
>
>In article <36d79388.140876835@news.newsguy.com>,
> kathy@scconsult.com (Kathy Pascoe) wrote:
>> On Mon, 01 Feb 1999 16:20:07 +0800, "Brian F. Walker"
>> <bfwkendo@netvigator.com> wrote:
>>
>> > As yet there has been no word from Fred concerning repeated requests to
>> > engage in meaningful, adult communication. I am beginning to think him
>> > incapable of such a discourse. Is there anyone here who agrees that it
>> > is time to create an FAQ regarding the Glaysher technique, such that
all
>> > can be warned about his methods? I mean to say, after two weeks of
>> > determined silence to the questions posed him, and after reading yet
>> > more trolls from him, it seems time to draw a line. Anyone for comment?
>>
>> I think it would be more appropriate to post a brief FAQ on filtering
>> and killfiles.
>> --
>> Kathy Pascoe ~ kathy@scconsult.com (at home)
>> Confused about newsgroups? Visit <news:news.newusers.questions>
>>
>
>"Look within and you will find Me standing there Mighty, Powerful, and
>Selfsubsisting".......Baha'u'llah, Arabic HW #13
>
>-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
>https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 02, 1999 8:34 AM
To: FG
Subject: Fw: The Glaysher Technique
-----Original Message-----
From: starjo8853@my-dejanews.com <starjo8853@my-dejanews.com>
Newsgroups: alt.religion.bahai,talk.religion.bahai
Date: Tuesday, February 02, 1999 2:48 AM
Subject: Re: The Glaysher Technique
>Kathy - All of us here on TRB should be grateful to Fred whether or not we
>agree with his techniques (those are his talents from which we here are
>benefiting). I think it is quite refreshing for him to stand back and give
us
>all a chance to develop this new medium without his personality dominating
>(something he did when he was fighting for the right to have this free
>communication). I too am interested to see what he says. One thing we know
is
>that he has confided in us that the Faith is deep in his soul. It seems to
me
>that he is angry at where it has gone wrong or not lived up to the
principles
>that many Westerners were led to believe the Faith stands for. So I think
we
>need to understand how brave he has been and give him a break. I am sure
when
>he comes back it will be with lots to say......sometimes we have to soul
>search so we have something to say that is meaningful........regards, Star*
>
>In article <36d79388.140876835@news.newsguy.com>,
> kathy@scconsult.com (Kathy Pascoe) wrote:
>> On Mon, 01 Feb 1999 16:20:07 +0800, "Brian F. Walker"
>> <bfwkendo@netvigator.com> wrote:
>>
>> > As yet there has been no word from Fred concerning repeated requests to
>> > engage in meaningful, adult communication. I am beginning to think him
>> > incapable of such a discourse. Is there anyone here who agrees that it
>> > is time to create an FAQ regarding the Glaysher technique, such that
all
>> > can be warned about his methods? I mean to say, after two weeks of
>> > determined silence to the questions posed him, and after reading yet
>> > more trolls from him, it seems time to draw a line. Anyone for comment?
>>
>> I think it would be more appropriate to post a brief FAQ on filtering
>> and killfiles.
>> --
>> Kathy Pascoe ~ kathy@scconsult.com (at home)
>> Confused about newsgroups? Visit <news:news.newusers.questions>
>>
>
>"Look within and you will find Me standing there Mighty, Powerful, and
>Selfsubsisting".......Baha'u'llah, Arabic HW #13
>
>-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
>https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 1999 7:22 AM
To: talisman
Subject: Re: Call for Manuscripts - - New Publisher
Just received my first series of 10 ISBNs from R. R. Bowker....
While the first book I'll be publishing this August is moving along
well, I'm considering also publishing this year a collection of the
articles on my website I've called Assorted Controversial
Documents:
"A Modest Proposal" 1987
"The Service of Women" 1988?
"Crisis of Faith" 5/15/96
Letter: Stephen Birkland, Continental Board of Counsellors 7/16/96
"Baha'i Leaders Vexed by On-Line Critics" Winter 1997
Mark Towfiq's NO Vote Campaign on BCCA mailing lists 3/12/97
Susan Maneck's NO Vote Campaign on AOL 12/7/98
and, in the right format, perhaps the following:
alt.religion.bahai FAQ & Chronology (Frequently Asked Questions)
The Bahai Technique (Essential Reading)
To the Universal House of Justice - March 31, 1997
To the Universal House of Justice - July 24, 1998
I'm hoping to find a few other contributors and perhaps
someone to write an introductory essay that suggests
an historical perspective and sets the proper tone for the book.
I believe the book should sell well for its type to public and
university libraries.
I'm sure no one will be surprised by the title I have in mind....
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
jrcole@umich.edu wrote in message <79853j$5fa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>The British government of India made a law that it was illegal to make
salt,
>so as to be able to keep its monopoly on and profits from selling salt in
>India.
>
>Mahatma Gandhi pointed out that such a law, in which Indians paid for the
>perpetuation of their own colonial domination, could only be kept in place
by
>large numbers of Indians obeying it.
>
>And so he marched to the sea and made salt, and so did lots of other
people,
>and the British salt monopoly collapsed.
>
>cheers Juan
>
>In article <36b7e384.81263285@news.newsguy.com>,
> rreini@wwnet.net wrote:
>> On Mon, 1 Feb 1999 07:15:28 -0500, "FG"
>> <FG@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >, a new publishing company, seeks primarily
>> >manuscripts of poetry, fiction, and literary and social criticism.
>> >
>> >The publisher will also consider works on or relating to the
>> >Bahai Faith, especially manuscripts that may have been rejected
>> >or suppressed through Bahai "review."
>>
>> IMHO, this second paragraph could be interpreted as encouraging
>> Baha'is to disobey the instructions of their lawfully established
>> institutions, which include all committees under their jurisdiction.
>> If a Baha'i were to arrange to have published a work related to the
>> Faith which had either not been reviewed or had not passed review, he
>> could be exposing himself to administrative sanctions. And if the
>> publisher also happens to be Baha'i, he too might be subject to
>> sanction.
>>
>> >
>> >All submissions must include a Self Addressed Stamped Envelope
>> >(SASE) or they will not be returned.
>> >
>> >
>> >P. O. Box 81842
>> >Rochester, Michigan 48308-1842 USA
>> >earthrisepress@hotmail.com
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>> Roger (rreini@wwnet.net)
>> https://fp-www.wwnet.net/~rreini/
>>
>
>Juan Cole
>History, U of Michigan
>https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai.htm
>
>-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
>https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 04, 1999 7:32 AM
Subject: Re: Call for Manuscripts - - New Publisher
Smaneck wrote in message <19990203083201.00368.00000026@ng-ch1.aol.com>...
>Dear Mr. Glaysher,
>
>I suggest that you be very careful not to violate anyone's copyrights in
your
>book. Rest assured that if mine are violated I will not hesitate to take
legal
>action.
>Susan Stiles Maneck
>History, Stetson University
I can certainly understand why such a fine, outstanding
scholar would want to hide all her lies, slander, and
denunciations of the ideas of others as "garbage."
Interesting how all you can do is threaten people....
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 04, 1999 8:08 AM
Subject: Re: Annotated NO voters - 3rd interest poll
Ron House wrote in message <36B92B29.4A5A292B@usq.edu.au>...
>FG wrote:
>>
>> Ron House:
>>
>> You have not answered, that I've noticed, my request for
>> you to document your suggestion that Bahais voted for
>> and passed the proposal for talk.religion.bahai.
>
>I posted my general impression that lots of Baha'is voted yes. I got
>that opinion because I, who know the names of very few online Baha'is,
>still recognised many of them. Add to that the fact that the whole
>campaign was conducted on the basis of unity and creation of a NG that
>would be good for the Faith, and I think my impression is likely
>correct. I don't have to justify a general impression; I never claimed I
>had evidence that X% of the voters were Baha'i. I see no point in
>analysing this, but you are welcome to do so.
I believe your impression is mistaken. After two years of
reading soc.religion.bahai, talisman, Bahai-Studies,
Bahai-Discuss and other BCCA private lists, and h-bahai,
I assure you very few Bahais voted YES--I can only identify
approximately 27 names on the YES side of the RESULT....
Talk.religion.bahai owes its existence to the revulsion two
years of Bahai fanaticism inspired in the broader Usenet
community.... Talk.religion.bahai owes its existence to the
respect most non-Bahais and ex-Bahais feel for freedom
of speech and conscience....
Incidentally, Bill Hyman, "moderator" of soc.religion.bahai,
attempted to find a way to suppress posting the full RESULT
to srb by deleting the names and addresses of all voters,
including the evidence that he and other fanatics had voted NO.
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 04, 1999 9:06 AM
Subject: Re: Censorship
Smaneck wrote in message <19990203135608.29027.00000170@ng-fi1.aol.com>...
>
>Considering the amount of ad hominen arguments I have seen on this list,
>including yours, where the merits of ideas are not addressed, but rather
>simply, labeled and dismissed as "fundamentalist" or "liberalist" this
>characterization is less than persuasive.
For Ms. Maneck's labelling the ideas of others as "garbage,"
including similar treatment of talk.religion.bahai, see
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/Maneck1.htm
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 04, 1999 9:25 AM
Subject: Re: Universal Declaration of Human Rights and Freedom of Conscience
McKenny Michael wrote in message <79ac9o$oq@freenet-news.carleton.ca>...
> And one can point to his long-standing connection, not simply with
>speculative fiction, but with speculative fiction of the XUSSR. When
>Mr. McKenny published a number of lists of top ten SF and Fantasy books,
>films, etc. according to the opinions of various readers and viewers of
>the genre, this was dedicated to Yevgeny Zamyatin, stated by Mr. McKenny
>to have written the best SF novel ever, WE, the book which inspired 1984,
>and which was published in the Soviet Union only in 1989, although it was
>originally written in the 20s by an author who had been a Bolshevik long
>before the revolution, and saw earlier than most the totalitarian night-
>mare that would distort previous Russian utopian visions.
> All of this stuff may be of interest in trying to get a handle on an
>individual, and why it was him, and not someone else who spoke up, and why
>he spoke up the way he did, etc.
I read We in 1989 along with most of the major distopias....
"You're in a bad way! Apparently, you have developed a soul" (79).
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 04, 1999 9:31 AM
Subject: Re: Some thoughts
Smaneck wrote in message <19990202213420.01208.00003657@ng-fi1.aol.com>...
>Dear Robert,
>
>If people are afraid to crticize it is difficult for me to see how there
will
>be any real frank consultation from which the spark of truth can arise.
There
>is a difference between constructive criticism and attacks however. The
major
>difference is that constructive criticism ought to hold some realistic hope
of
>*building* something.
For a sample of Ms. Maneck's "constructive criticism," see her
referring to others' ideas as "garbage" and her NO vote
campaigning against talk.religion.bahai:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/Maneck1.htm
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 04, 1999 9:42 AM
Subject: Maneck's deceitful "hikmat"
Ms. Maneck's attack below on talk.religion.bahai should
be compared to her use of lying as a Bahai technique
know as "hikmat," a Bahai practice of deceiving non-Bahais.
I believe she's practicing this technique now on
talk.religion.bahai in a number of ways.
https://ccwf.cc.utexas.edu/~saf/bahai/docs/hikmat.html
See also https://members.tripod.com/~FG/Maneck1.htm
Her hypocrisy should be quite clear to anyone who compares
all these messages to some of her recent posts.
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
-----Original Message-----
From: Fran Baker <fran@crhc.uiuc.edu>
To: FG@hotmail.com <FG@hotmail.com>; fbaker@ncsa.uiuc.edu
<fbaker@ncsa.uiuc.edu>; house@usq.edu.au <house@usq.edu.au>;
johnwalker@ozemail.com.au <johnwalker@ozemail.com.au>;
fran@amber.crhc.uiuc.edu <fran@amber.crhc.uiuc.edu>; smaneck@stetson.edu
<smaneck@stetson.edu>; rdsteph@ibm.net <rdsteph@ibm.net>
Date: Monday, December 07, 1998 5:03 AM
Subject: Re: [Fwd: talk.religion.bahai]
>Resending this to all due to a typo I made in Susan's email address.
>--Fran
>
>Fran Baker wrote:
>>
>> Sorry, Susan, but sometimes an appeal to courtesy is not appropriate.
>> I have to let my coproponents know what you are planning to do.
>> I can't believe you are letting a personality conflict resulting
>> from a passionate disagreement color your judgment in what is
>> essentially a human rights issue. You have crossed a line here.
>>
>> --Fran
>>
>> PS Who is rdsteph@ibm.net? Hi, whoever you are!
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Subject: talk.religion.bahai
>> Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 12:31:28 -0500
>> From: "Susan Maneck " <smaneck@stetson.edu>
>> To: rdsteph@ibm.net
>> CC: Fran Baker <fran@crhc.uiuc.edu>
>>
>> Dear Ron and Fran,
>>
>> I am seriously contemplating calling for a "no" vote on
>> talk.religion.bahai. I wanted to contact you first and explain to you
>> my rationale because I know this is something you have both
>> worked hard for. In the past I have not participated in the votes at
>> all. I wouldn't vote for it because I wanted nothing to do with a list
>> promoted by Fred and I felt that there ought to be the requisite
>> number of 150 truly interested individuals to form it. On the other
>> hand, I would not vote now because I thought it wrong because I
>> did not think that an unmoderated list should be opposed in
>> principle. Now, however, I find the manner in which Fred is going
>> about seeking to establish this list to be more than I can stomach
>> and publicly calling for a "no" vote appears to be the only way to
>> register the extent of our outrage against this kind of behaviour.
>> What I refer to specifically is the campaign of slander and calumny
>> against not only the Institutions, but against myself and the Bahai
>> Studies list. As you know, he accuses this list and me of
>> censorship, which you yourself know is not true. He is also trying
>> to prevent my managing the Baha'i Message Board of AOL for the
>> same reason. He constantly spams that Board making any
>> genuine discussions virtually impossible.
>>
>> I'm going to sit on this a couple of days and give myself a cooling
>> off period before taking any action, but I've really had it "up to here"
>> with this jerk.
>>
>> Please do me the courtesy of not forwarding this message to Fred
>> (although you may convey my sentiments and my intentions). I do
>> not care to see it up in his website tomorrow.
>>
>> warmest, Susan
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 04, 1999 12:36 PM
Subject: Re: Maneck's deceitful "hikmat"
Smaneck wrote in message <19990204103025.29033.00001036@ng-fi1.aol.com>...
>Dear Fred,
>
>I believe that my private correspondence, which you just posted explains
my
>motives in calling for a 'no' vote on the part of AOL participants who
objected
>to the use of slander in promoting the talk.religion.bahai list. The
readers
>can clearly see that issue had nothing to do with having any objections to
a
>moderated list.
Ms. Maneck's charge of "slander" against me is in itself slander
as is evident from the message
Perhaps I'll sue her over that and her scholarly references to my
opinions as "garbage."
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/Maneck1.htm
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Friday, February 05, 1999 7:52 AM
Subject: Re: Copyright
K. Paul Johnson wrote in message <36ba03e7.0@vlinsvr>...
>
>BTW, Saman, in my opinion you are one of the most unpleasant
>participants in arb and trb, because I don't recall you
>ever posting anything constructive, or thoughtful, or kind, or
>inspired. Nothing but snotty little sniping oneliners to express
>your aggression/disapproval toward those who think differently than
yourself.
>Surely there's more to Saman than that-- isn't there? If so, why
>not show some other side of yourself here?
I couldn't agree more. I suggest you consider filtering
out his messages, if you use Outlook Express. It works
quite well. I set it up a few days ago to filter out him and
several other fanatics I'm weary of hearing repeat themselves.
As basically representing the true-blue Iranian mentality,
Saman might be of interest to some who are inexperienced....
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Friday, February 05, 1999 9:17 AM
Subject: Re: Copyright
Smaneck wrote in message <19990205075810.25320.00000405@ng-cg1.aol.com>...
>>As basically representing the true-blue Iranian mentality,
>>Saman might be of interest to some who are inexperienced....
>
>Sounds basically racist.
Ha, ha, ha, ha.... Yes, I'm such a terrible racist, having edited
an African-American poet's prose and poems, lived in Japan
for a year and a half, on an Indian reservation in third world
conditions for two, taughtmulticultural literature for a number of
years, had a Fulbright to China and a NEH grant on India....
Oh, I'm so racist.... Poor Saman.... There couldn't be anything
the matter with him....
Well, I'm a white man.... How could I be otherwise? Ah, yes,
that explains it all....
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Friday, February 05, 1999 9:28 AM
To: Ruletherod@aol.com
Subject: Fw: Bahai censorship on AOL (Re: 14+ million AOL members & Bahai censorship)
fyi
Foster placed a TOS against me for my questioning him
in the Non-Bahai forum. I've been warned by AOL once
more and I'm off for good. Really need your and others' help
now. Seems to me they're seeking revenge for talk.religon.bahai
-----Original Message-----
From: FG <FG@hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: alt.religion.bahai,talk.religion.bahai,talk.religion.misc
Date: Friday, February 05, 1999 8:08 AM
Subject: Bahai censorship on AOL (Re: 14+ million AOL members & Bahai
censorship)
>Posted to the AOL Bahai Forums Message Boards/ Question to
>Forum Leader
>
>Dear Mr. Mark Foster:
>
>You appear to have returned from your more than 8 MONTH long
>absence.
>
>I'm concerned with the correction of primarily 3 ISSUES:
>
>alt.religion.bahai and talk.religion.bahai should be added to
>Newsgroups on the main Bahai Forum Menu
>
>Libraries functioning and accepting all postings to them and
>uncensored by Bahais.
>
>My web site The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience
>added to Web Sites and all others freely accepted as well:
>https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm
>
>Will you be helping to improve the AOL Bahai Forums for the
>fair and open use of all AOL members? I ask this question
>because of the Bahai FANATICISM that has overwhelmingly
>been demonstrated on soc.religion.bahai during the last two
>years of opposition to talk.religion.bahai, which has just
>been recently created on Usenet. I am concerned that you
>may actually represent a narrowly fundamentalist contingent
>here on AOL as well. Having witnessed the way you censored
>people a year and a half ago on your Bahai-Studies mailing list,
>I have little confidence in you.
>
>Please reassure all of us otherwise and state your policies.
>
>FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
>https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
>alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
>
>
>
>
>
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Friday, February 05, 1999 12:46 PM
To: McKenny Michael
Subject: Re: REPOST - To UHJ July 24, 1998
Michael,
Have to ask you off line, is this true? It's news
to me, i.e., the UHJ ORDERED it now to be
published?
Fred
-----Original Message-----
From: McKenny Michael <bn872@FreeNet.Carleton.CA>
Newsgroups: talk.religion.bahai
Date: Thursday, February 04, 1999 12:18 PM
Subject: Re: REPOST - To UHJ July 24, 1998
>
>Dia is Muire dhuit, Pat.
> Actually, I understand this distinction fairly well.
> When I looked at the maps proposed for the book PEACE IN THE ANCIENT
>WORLD and said that one of them should alter the proposed wording "Scale
>in miles" to "Scale in kilometres" to reflect the scale in which the map
>had actually been drawn, this was review.
> When the Universal House of Justice ordered that the Service of Women
>paper not be published, as they did not wish Baha'is to read the contents
>of the paper, academically sound as they were, this was censorship.
> May this find you very well, and may each of the days in front of us
>be better than the one it succeeds.
> To the Future,
> Michael
>
>>
>> The policy is editorial review. I'll infer that the distinction eludes
you;
>> that the distinction eludes you does not make it doublespeak,
>
>
>--
>"My name's McKenny, Mike McKenny, Warrant Officer, Solar Guard."
> (Tom Corbett #1 STAND BY FOR MARS p2)
>
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Friday, February 05, 1999 1:20 PM
Subject: Re: What I Admire about Baha'i
Paul,
I'm a little sad that no one has really responded to your
message but largely cast it aside. I think you observe
some very true things about the nature of the Bahai Faith
these days that resonate with my experience of it as well.
Too, I think highly of Baha'u'llah and Abdul-Baha for
similar reasons you mention, while wondering what has
gone wrong that such a vindictive fanaticism has supplanted
their Teachings....
I've been fascinated too watching trb develop along different
lines from alt.religion.bahai. I'm completely amazed to connect
and watch 30 to 60 messages or more download at a time.
With over 800 messages in only 2 and half weeks, it doesn't
appear to be talk.religion.glaysher after all as the fanatics
always claimed it would be....
I share your sense of pity at what the Bahai Faith has become....
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
K. Paul Johnson wrote in message <36b75fdb.0@vlinsvr>...
>Reflecting on trb as it has evolved in its first
>couple of weeks, I disagree with the assertion that
>it's a twin of the "evil" arb. While there's more
>conflict and criticism than would ever be allowed on
>srb, the tone is far more constructive IMO than what
>I saw on arb.
>
>Thinking about what is constructive and why I'm here,
>it occurred to me that the frequency of my disagreements
>with Baha'is makes some of them relegate me to the
>category of "enemy of the faith" or "detractor" or whatnot.
>And yet the reasons I'm here have at least as much to
>do with the things I like and admire in the Baha'i tradition.
>
>To make those things clearer: I admire Baha'u'llah's world-
>mindedness very much. All his passages about the oneness of
>humanity, of religion, of God strike an inspiring note, e.g.
>"Let your vision be world-embracing rather than confined to
>your own selves." Moreover, the Hidden Words and Seven Valleys
>bear witness to a mystical awareness on the author's part that
>recommends the books to any reader seeking "light on the path."
>Baha'u'llah saw far beyond the usual mental framework of his
>time and place, in some ways, and became a spokesman for the
>emergence of truly global spiritual perspectives.
>`Abdu'l Baha is an extremely admirable character, in my estim-
>ation, due to his flexibility, charisma, liberal values,
>and consistent outreach to the world around him.
>Furthermore, to a 60s teenager with an interracial family,
>Baha'i was a real haven of support and understanding in an
>America far less comfortable than now with such situations.
>And Baha'i community life, despite some unpleasant features, was
>generally a positive experience for me leaving few scars or
>resentments.
>
>None of those things are enough in themselves to keep me
>interested in the Baha'is; the negative trends discussed here
>every day, juxtaposed against the positive elements sketched
>above, are fascinating because they make for a continuing
>moral drama. "What's going to happen next?" has remained
>a very interesting question about Baha'is in cyberspace
>ever since I discovered them in 1994. And trb is the latest
>and perhaps the most intriguing chapter in that ongoing drama.
>
>Having long been interested in tracing the interconnections among
>spiritual movements of the late 19th and early 20th centuries, I
>have come to see Baha'is as spiritual "cousins"-- which is also
>true of a number of other movements such as Radhasoami and
>the Fourth Way, whose founders somehow influenced or were
>influenced by the Western Theosophical movement. With
>cousins, one feels a sense of kinship but at the same time
>a certain distance, making it quite different from the
>feelings one has for siblings. I wish more Baha'is could
>appreciate and reciprocate the "spiritual cousin" feeling,
>and fewer would interpret disagreement as enmity.
>
>Cheers,
>PJ
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Friday, February 05, 1999 1:41 PM
To: jrcole@umich.edu
Subject: Carl Ernest; Collection of Articles
Juan,
You've recently mentioned Carl Ernst. He directed the 8 week
NEH seminar on India I participated in back in 1995. I assume
you've met. I have a copy of his book Eternal Garden which
you're perhaps familar with. He's a little on the radical side to
my tastes, though I respect him and learned a great deal from
the experience.
Steven Scholl has given me permission to publish "A Modest
Proposal." I hope others will agree to my also publishing in one
volume the most disputed texts of the last decade or so:
"A Modest Proposal" 1987
"The Service of Women" 1988?
"Crisis of Faith" 5/15/96
Letter: Stephen Birkland, Continental Board of Counsellors 7/16/96
"Baha'i Leaders Vexed by On-Line Critics" Winter 1997
Mark Towfiq's NO Vote Campaign on BCCA mailing lists 3/12/97
Susan Maneck's NO Vote Campaign on AOL 12/7/98
alt.religion.bahai FAQ & Chronology (Frequently Asked Questions)
The Bahai Technique (Essential Reading)
To the Universal House of Justice - March 31, 1997
To the Universal House of Justice - July 24, 1998
Would you be willing to write an introductory piece? And/or perhaps
one on the Michael McKenny incident? Actually, I'd be grateful for
anything you'd be willing to do for the project including selecting and
editing it.
Respectfully,
FG
Mystics
>like Bayazid Bistami established the tradition that when one reaches fana'
>one may speak 'words of ecstasy' (in Carl Ernst's phrase) which are
>theopathic or expressive of the divine
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Friday, February 05, 1999 1:47 PM
To: Java and COM
Subject: Re: Re: How to marshall Variants to a stream?
Please unsubscribe if someone, a hacker, or troll, or whatever,
has subscribed me to your mailing list. I assure you I myself did not
subscribe to it.
-----Original Message-----
From: Jamie Thomas <jamie@RICOMMUNITY.COM>
To: Java-COM@DISCUSS.MICROSOFT.COM <Java-COM@DISCUSS.MICROSOFT.COM>
Date: Friday, February 05, 1999 11:25 AM
Subject: Re: How to marshall Variants to a stream?
>I've had similar problems with Variants. I hope that the VM team will look
>into making them serializable in the near future. I assume you're
concerned
>with simple data types, not object pointers, arrays and such. If so, I
have
>found it easy to just send the Variant type and string representation,
>allowing me to recreate the Variant on the other side.
>
>Send Variant.getvt() and Variant.toString() down the pipe, create a new
>Variant on the other side using the passed string, and use the
>Variant.changeType() method to coerce the value to the correct Variant
type.
>If you're working with dates, make sure you set the Short Date Style to use
>a four digit year (under Regional Settings in the Control Panel), to avoid
>Y2K bugs.
>
>Good luck,
>
> Jamie
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Dan Adler [mailto:adan@INVEN.COM]
>Sent: Friday, February 05, 1999 10:52 AM
>To: Java-COM@DISCUSS.MICROSOFT.COM
>Subject: How to marshall Variants to a stream?
>
>
>I'm hoping this is a trivial question...
>
>Obviously, COM can easily marshall Variants by value with its eyes
>closed (including ones that hold SafeArrays etc.) as part of the
>standard marshaller.
>
>I've tried to simply serialize Variants (below), but I get a not
>serializable exception.
>
>I can't seem to find a simple method like Variant.writeObject(IStream)
>and Variant.readObject(IStream). So, how do you take a Variant and push
>it by value into a socket or some other stream such that it can be
>faithfully recreated on the other side of the wire?
>
>-Dan
>
>
>import com.ms.com.*;
>import java.io.*;
>
>class var_ser implements Serializable
>{
> Variant v;
> public var_ser(double d)
> {
> v = new Variant(d);
> }
>
> public static void main(String[] args) throws Exception
> {
> var_ser vs1 = new var_ser(100.234);
> var_ser vs2 = new var_ser(123.345);
>
> FileOutputStream fos = new FileOutputStream("foo.foo");
> ObjectOutputStream oos = new ObjectOutputStream(fos);
> oos.writeObject(vs1);
> oos.writeObject(vs2);
> oos.close();
> fos.close();
>
> System.out.println(vs1 + "," + vs2);
>
> FileInputStream fis = new FileInputStream("foo.foo");
> ObjectInputStream ois = new ObjectInputStream(fis);
> var_ser v1, v2;
>
> v1 = (var_ser)ois.readObject();
> v2 = (var_ser)ois.readObject();
> ois.close();
> fis.close();
>
> System.out.println(v1 + "," + v2);
> }
>}
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------
>Users Guide https://www.microsoft.com/workshop/essentials/mail.asp
>contains important info including how to unsubscribe. Save time, search
>the archives at https://discuss.microsoft.com/archives/index.html
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------
>Users Guide https://www.microsoft.com/workshop/essentials/mail.asp
>contains important info including how to unsubscribe. Save time, search
>the archives at https://discuss.microsoft.com/archives/index.html
>
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Friday, February 05, 1999 4:30 PM
To: support@hotmail.com
Cc: Abuse@hotmail.com
Subject: Serious problem
Someone has apparently subscribed me to three or four different
listservs. My mailbox is being absolutely flooded today with messages
from them. A hotmail.com tech person suggested I BLOCK them
under Options but it is not working. The blocking device is not reading
the message as coming from the listserv but the individual. That means
I'd have to BLOCK, who knows HOW MANY subscribers.
THis is a serious disruption of the integrity of my account. In over
two years with Hotmail nothing like this has ever happen. I'm certainly
not blaming Hotmail. I realize it's some kind of kook out there.
I'm sorry to have to take up your time, but I really need your help to
figure out how to stop this.
Headers are below.
Thanks.
FG@hotmail.com
All these need to be blocked:
LINGUIST@LINGUIST.LDC.UPENN.EDU
LISTSERV@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU
Java-COM@DISCUSS.MICROSOFT.COM
linguist@linguistlist.org
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From: Andrés_Aguiar <aaguiar@GENEXUS.ES> Save Address Block Sender
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Subject: Message ("Your message dated Fri, 5 Feb 1999 12:45:18 -0500...")
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 12:45:26 -0500
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Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 15:08:04 -0500MIME-Version: 1.0
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----------
From: Juan Cole[SMTP:jrcole@umich.edu]
Sent: Saturday, February 06, 1999 1:28 AM
To: FG
Subject: Re: Carl Ernest; Collection of Articles
Dear Fred:
I think it is wonderful you're doing the book, and am honored to be invited
to be involved, but have to beg off. A whole line of editors will put me
against the wall and shoot me if I take on anything else before I finish
what's on the plate. I will try to keep contributing to TRB, since I think
the hope of provisional translations and commentary on them actually is a
draw and will help make that list more successful.
cheers Juan
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, February 06, 1999 6:17 AM
To: PENNSYLVANIA-ROOTS-L-request@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU
Subject: False Listserv subscription - help!
Someone has subscribed me to several listservs
including yours that are flooding me with email.
A hotmail tech person suggested I Block them under
Options but it's not working because only the
individual is being blocked. I need to block the
entire listserv.
I you are the listowner or can help, please
remove my address from your list of subscribers.
Please help! This is extremely frustrating. I've
tried nearly a dozen times now to reach someone
at hotmail to help I just keep getting
autoresponders!
FG@hotmail.com
owner-java-com@DISCUSS.MICROSOFT.COM
Java-COM@DISCUSS.MICROSOFT.COM
LINGUIST@LINGUIST.LDC.UPENN.EDU
LISTSERV@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU
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DEEP-SOUTH-ROOTS-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU
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----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, February 06, 1999 6:25 AM
Subject: Re: Maneck's deceitful "hikmat"
Milissa Boyer Kafes wrote in message <79gqo8$cmp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>Frederick!
>
>When are you going to get out of attack mode?
You might ask that of Susan Maneck and Mark Foster, not
to mention a number of other Bahais....
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, February 06, 1999 6:34 AM
Subject: Re: Copyright
Milissa Boyer Kafes wrote in message <79gt03$edu$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>Frederick--
>
>> As basically representing the true-blue Iranian mentality,
>> Saman might be of interest to some who are inexperienced....
>
>Why would you say this, Frederick? Ethnic slurs don't have a place in the
>Baha'i Faith.
False. Nothing could be more common. You've never
heard Iranian Bahais slander the United States and Western
culture?
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, February 06, 1999 6:51 AM
Subject: Re: Some thoughts
Ron House wrote in message <36BBE406.4A981380@usq.edu.au>...
Fred blew the issue up into an accusation against Susan
>before she took any action.
This assertion is false. Maneck had posted her NO vote
campaign appeal against trb on AOL.
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, February 06, 1999 6:54 AM
Subject: Re: Houses of Justice
McKenny Michael wrote in message <79f3ju$evo@freenet-news.carleton.ca>...
>I will ask again for someone to kindly post the Service of Women Paper.
Here's a link to the entire piece on my website:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/SWomen.htm
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, February 06, 1999 7:14 AM
To: Juan Cole
Subject: Collection of Articles
Juan,
I can understand you have other more compelling interests.
Could you tell me what you know, though, about the history
of the "Service of Women" and who wrote it? The copy I
have from Michael McKenny more than a year ago shows
the following names below the title. Any idea to whom I
should request permission to reprint?
The Service of Women on the Institutions of the Baha'i Faith
Anthony A. Lee, Peggy Caton, Richard Hollinger, Marjan Nirou, Nader
Saiedi, Shahin Carrigan, Jackson Armstong-Ingram, and Juan R. I.
Cole.
As I mentioned Scholl has given me permission to reprint
"A Modest Proposal" and his "Crisis of Faith." If you can think
of anything else that might be suitable, I'd appreciate your
mentioning it.
Thanks.
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, February 06, 1999 7:20 AM
To: K. Paul Johnson
Subject: Your Gnosis article
Paul,
I'd like to reprint your article "Baha'i Leaders Vexed by On-Line
Critics" from Gnosis in a collection of pieces I mentioned recently
on trb. It would at a minimum include these controversial pieces
from my website:
A Modest Proposal" 1987
"The Service of Women" 1988?
"Crisis of Faith" 5/15/96
Letter: Stephen Birkland, Continental Board of Counsellors 7/16/96
Please let me know if this would be acceptable to you and
whether you know of anything else I might include.
Thanks.
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, February 06, 1999 8:00 AM
To: 'PENNSYLVANIA-ROOTS-L-request@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU'
Subject: False Listserv subscription
Someone has subscribed me to several listservs
including yours that are flooding me with email.
A hotmail tech person suggested I Block them under
Options but it's not working because only the
individual is being blocked. I need to block the
entire listserv.
I you are the listowner or can help, please
remove my address from your list of subscribers.
Please help! This is extremely frustrating. I've
tried nearly a dozen times now to reach someone
at hotmail to help I just keep getting
autoresponders!
FG@hotmail.com
owner-java-com@DISCUSS.MICROSOFT.COM
Java-COM@DISCUSS.MICROSOFT.COM
LINGUIST@LINGUIST.LDC.UPENN.EDU
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----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, February 06, 1999 9:16 AM
Subject: Antinomies - Browning & Dostoevsky
From a May 1992 letter:
I've been reading lately a narrative poem by Robert
Browning, "Bishop Blougram's Apology." I've read it a number of
times over the years, and it's one that I continue to think
about. The character of the bishop is partly based on John Henry
Newman and another contemporary figure in the Roman Catholic
Church, the latter of whom was especially noted for his abuse of
power and position. Over dinner, the bishop justifies his
corruption to a young journalist who has noticed his calculation,
insincerity, and hypocrisy. In much of the poem, Browning is
dealing with the nature of religious doubt. While the bishop is
a hypocrite who embraces Catholicism because it gives him "cabin
comforts" and the "estimation" of the masses, the journalist is
charmingly naive in his insistence that religious faith should be
"absolute." In a marvelous passage Browning recognizes the
complex duality of the human soul:
No, when the fight begins within himself,
A man's worth something. God stoops o'er his head,
Satan looks up between his feet--both tug--
He's left, himself, i' the middle: the soul wakes
And grows. Prolong that battle through his life!
Never leave growing till the life to come!
ll. 690
Putting this truth in a sophist's mouth, Browning probes much
deeper into the struggle for faith than the "pious" usually allow
themselves. To my mind, the health of the spirit requires that
freedom--given by God--to doubt and question and probe every
single dogma of religion in its oppressively organized phase. On
the other hand, Browning's point is partly that doubt itself,
like evil and suffering, is a test of one's belief, for mature
belief can only grow out of the struggle with doubt.
There is something deeply, inescapably, eternally
dialectical in the human being and in the very nature of
existence, the way it develops, evolves, progresses.
Dostoevsky, in his chapter "The Grand Inquisitor," In The
Brothers Karamazov, meditates dialectically on the dilemma of
free will and obedience to religious authority. Christ returns
during the Spanish Inquisition and is imprisoned by the Grand
Inquisitor who accuses Christ of leading men into confusion by
giving them freedom of choice and conscience. The Grand
Inquisitor informs Christ that
We have corrected Your work and have now founded it on
miracle, mystery, and authority. And men rejoice at
being led like cattle again, with the terrible gift of
freedom that brought them so much suffering removed
from them.
The Inquisitor goes on to tell Christ that man's "greatest need
on earth" is "to find someone to worship, someone who can relieve
him of the burden of his conscience, thus enabling him finally to
unite into a harmonious ant-hill where there are no dissenting
voices. . . ." In place of individual responsibility to God, the
Inquisitor promises to free mankind from "the frightening torment
they know today when they have to decide for themselves how to
act." Christ listens to this sophist without uttering a word,
and then, at the end, before being allowed to leave, rises and
kisses the Inquisitor. Ivan, a nihilist, who relates this story,
asserts all too accurately that in the modern world "everything
is permitted." The Grand Inquisitor, grasping for power, a
character to whom Nietzsche must have responded deeply, "doesn't
believe in God." Dostoevsky knew these rich tensions were part
of human nature. At times, the Bahá'í administration grossly
fails to understand that Bahá'u'lláh has also blessed humankind
with this burden of freedom and responsibility.
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm
On alt.religion.bahai and AOL, Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, February 06, 1999 9:32 AM
Subject: Bahai revenge - LISTSERV attack ( censorship on AOL (Re: 14+ million AOL members & Bahai censorship))
Fanatic Bahais have subscribed me to several listservs,
including yours, that are flooding my account with email.
This is apparently being done by Bahais in conjunction
with a simultaneously attempt to have me removed from
AOL by Bahai Forum Leader Mark Foster in retaliation
for my role in helping to create an unmoderated forum on
Usenet, talk.religion.bahai, which they opposed for more
than two years.
If you are the listowner or can help, please remove my
address from your list of subscribers.
FG@hotmail.com
owner-java-com@DISCUSS.MICROSOFT.COM
Java-COM@DISCUSS.MICROSOFT.COM
LINGUIST@LINGUIST.LDC.UPENN.EDU
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DEEP-SOUTH-ROOTS-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, February 06, 1999 9:36 AM
To: FG
Subject: listserv message for help
Someone has subscribed me to several listservs,
including yours, that are flooding my account with email.
If you are the listowner or can help, please remove my
address from your list of subscribers.
FG@hotmail.com
owner-java-com@DISCUSS.MICROSOFT.COM
Java-COM@DISCUSS.MICROSOFT.COM
LINGUIST@LINGUIST.LDC.UPENN.EDU
LISTSERV@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU
linguist@linguistlist.org
PENNSYLVANIA-ROOTS-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU
owner-pennsylvania-roots-l@listserv.indiana.edu
DEEP-SOUTH-ROOTS-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, February 06, 1999 10:41 AM
To: owner-pennsylvania-roots-l@listserv.indiana.edu
Subject: false listserv subscription
Someone has subscribed me to several listservs,
including yours, that are flooding my account with email.
If you are the listowner or can help, please remove my
address from your list of subscribers.
FG@hotmail.com
owner-java-com@DISCUSS.MICROSOFT.COM
Java-COM@DISCUSS.MICROSOFT.COM
LINGUIST@LINGUIST.LDC.UPENN.EDU
LISTSERV@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU
linguist@linguistlist.org
PENNSYLVANIA-ROOTS-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU
owner-pennsylvania-roots-l@listserv.indiana.edu
DEEP-SOUTH-ROOTS-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, February 06, 1999 10:45 AM
Subject: Re: Instructions - ask your ISP for talk.religion.bahai
See the alt/talk.religion.bahai FAQ-history for
detailed instructions on how to request your ISP add
talk.religion.bahai.
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: Juan Cole[SMTP:jrcole@umich.edu]
Sent: Saturday, February 06, 1999 10:17 PM
To: FG
Subject: Re: Collection of Articles
Dear Fred:
I don't know the history of the Service of Women paper from the inside
because I wasn't around then; maybe in Egypt. Steve Scholl or Jackson would
be the ones to ask.
cheers Juan
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, February 07, 1999 12:50 PM
To: Arash
Subject: Re: Copyright
I have not read your message. Please do not email me.
Post your opinions online in public.
-----Original Message-----
From: Arash <emailXYZ@dallas.net>
Newsgroups: alt.religion.bahai,talk.religion.bahai
To: FG <FG@hotmail.com>
Date: Saturday, February 06, 1999 11:03 AM
Subject: Re: Copyright
>
>
>FG wrote:
>
>> Milissa Boyer Kafes wrote in message <79gt03$edu$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>> >Frederick--
>> >
>> >> As basically representing the true-blue Iranian mentality,
>> >> Saman might be of interest to some who are inexperienced....
>> >
>> >Why would you say this, Frederick? Ethnic slurs don't have a place in
the
>> >Baha'i Faith.
>>
>> False. Nothing could be more common. You've never
>> heard Iranian Bahais slander the United States and Western
>> culture?
>> \
>
>Oh, okay Fred! Just because there are, or maybe, some Iranian's who are
>racist, you have full justification for making all of the racist,
prejudicial
>generalizations you want.
>
>In Farsi there is this saying translated it says: first engage car in gear
>before driving, often it is used to remind people to think before voicing
an
>opinion. Think about it Fred! :)
>
>>
>> FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
>> https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
>> alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
>
>
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, February 07, 1999 12:57 PM
Subject: Re: Bahai revenge - LISTSERV attack ( censorship on AOL (Re: 14+ million AOL members & Bahai censorship))
Smaneck wrote in message <19990207032153.23947.00001099@ng-ch1.aol.com>...
>
>I doubt very much if it was. Mr. Glaysher has presented absolutely no
evidence
>of any connection between the two.
Yes, just a coincidence that Mark Foster's campaign to lodge
specious TOSs against me and get me kicked off AOL
and the LISTSERV attack began on the same day....
And for some fanatics, the Holocaust never took place....
"The Bahai Technique":
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/technique.htm
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, February 07, 1999 1:04 PM
Subject: Re: Iranian Baha'is
Lucas Paqueno wrote in message
<19990207150810.3950.rocketmail@send501.yahoomail.com>...
>The Iranians control the UHJ. Nobody wants to hear that, but it is the
>truth.
My over 22 years of experience as a member of the Bahai Faith
leads me to concur with this judgment. I believe the two years of
opposition to talk.religion.bahai is largely the result of the
stranglehold the Iranian Bahais exert over the Bahai Faith.
>The Writings
>The Iranians have a rather unique near monopoly on the Writings.
>This monopoly gives them an advantage.
Part of their monoply is the absolute control they have
to interpret out of existence the more liberal and democratic
beliefs of Baha'u'llah and Abdul-Baha.
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
>
>The Culture
>Have you noticed that the Dawnbreakers is now treated as one of the
>Gospels
>of the Bible?
>Fadil-i Mazandarani was a Hand of the Cause and a historian.
>His name has been erased. Have you ever heard of him?
>His mistake was to contradict the Dawnbreakers.
>The same book was involved when a British Baha'i scholar was silenced
>20 years ago.
>His name was Dennis [I don't know how to spell his last name].
>The Iranian Baha'i pecking order is partly decided by such books
>as the Dawnbreakers.
>
>Mankind is a body which needs unity and balance to function.
>If one member engages in politics, suppresses history and monopolizes
>the Writings, mankind and the Baha'i Faith will develop a limp.
>
>So what is the remedy?
>Demand full translations of the Writings. Demand an end to anti
>intellectual
>censorship. End the salt monopoly.
>And most importantly, vote for non Iranians. At the next national
>convention
>you can send someone who has never had the honor before.
>This is good healthy policy with or without Iranians, btw.
>
>Regards,
>Lucas
>
>
>
>
>
>
>_________________________________________________________
>DO YOU YAHOO!?
>Get your free @yahoo.com address at https://mail.yahoo.com
>
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Monday, February 08, 1999 8:46 AM
Subject: Re: Bahai revenge - AOL ( censorship on AOL (Re: 14+ million AOL members & Bahai censorship))
Subj: reply
Date: 2/7/1999 3:07:54 PM Eastern Standard Time
From: <A HREF="mailto:RBCF Mark">RBCF Mark</A>
To: <A HREF="mailto:FG">FG</A>
In a message dated 02/07/1999 08:23:55 Central Standard Time, FG
writes:
> I do not believe it is a TOS. Bahais regularly on the AOL Forums
accuse other Bahais of being covenant breakers or worse and
treat non-Bahais in extremely negative ways. Are you calling
those people to account? I highly doubt it.<
Foster:
I haven't seen these things go on since I have been back. However, if it
happens, I will have to consider whether I feel it falls under the
guidelines.
Glaysher:
Susan Maneck has referred to my beliefs and opinions as
"garbage." Will you be supporting such denigrating, derisive
statements on the Bahai Forums by Bahais you deem within
the pale?
> I asked three questions. Your answers are quite ambiguous.
When will you recommend alt.religion.bahai and talk.religion.bahai
be added to the main menu of the Bahai Forums?<
Foster:
I make my report once a week. Next report that goes out.
Glaysher:
Will you make your report public so that all people may
see what you're actually submitting? As I have said,
I have no confidence in you whatsoever and ask you to
post all of your side of our correspondence in public
on Questions to Forum Leader, where I originally posted
mine.
> Your answer about the Libraries misses the point. They do not
function now nor allow anyone to upload to them? When will
they be corrected so that people of all opinions may post
whatever they wish?<
Foster:
Anyone can upload to the libraries. However, the forum manager must check
all
files for viruses and TOS violations before "releasing" them. I have never
not
released a file (at least not yet).
Glaysher:
Are they presently working properly? The first and only
message shown is dated January 1998. If there is a
technical problem with the way I am uploading to them,
please inform me so that I and other may immediately
upload to them. Under what conditions would you refuse
not to release a file? Will you be censoring the Libraries
for content?
>You do not answer my third question: Will you add a link to
my website the Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience
to the Web Sites on the main Forum menu? Will you allow
other people to add their links as well regardless of their views?<
Foster:
I am not sure about that one. There are so many Baha'i websites. I have a
few,
and they are not listed either. Some decision needs to be made on how to
handle it. For what it's worth, I would rather have a link to a central
links
page from which someone could access all sorts of Baha'i-focused sites.
Glaysher:
I'm a paying member of AOL. I'm asking for MY link to be placed
on the list of Web Sites. I oppose adding only "central links pages"
as I believe that will be tantamount to another form of censorship
whereby only literalists and party-liners will be added. I specifically
asked you that ALL links be added regardless of their point of
view on the Bahai Faith. Obviously, sites not related to the Bahai
Faith would not be appropriate and it is reasonable to limit such links
to the topic. Again, a "central page" would be off-site, i.e., off AOL
and manipulated by Bahais. I once more ask that MY link be added
to the list of Web Sites immediately.
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm
> I asked you these questions in public under Question to Forum
Leader. Please answer there in public so that others might know
your policies as well.<
Foster:
Feel free to post my responses to the forum, if you like.
Glaysher:
I will post these exchanges there. In the future, please post
them in the proper folder where I have posted and asked you
the questions--Questions to Forum Leader. Please do not
change to private email. I believe these are questions taht
broadly affect the Bahai Forums on AOL and should be
discussed in public where other AOL members may
contribute and follow along.
Mark Foster,
Baha'i Forum Manager
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Monday, February 08, 1999 8:25 PM
Subject: Re: Bahai revenge - LISTSERV attack ( censorship on AOL (Re: 14+ million AOL members & Bahai censorship))
A Bahai has subscribed me to at least four more
listservs today for a total of at least EIGHT.
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
afshin.afrashteh@utoronto.ca wrote in message
<79n6li$97o$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>Peace be upon those that receive true guidance,
>
>
>
>
>In article <79hg82$g3t@news1.newsguy.com>,
> "FG" <FG@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> Fanatic Bahais have subscribed me to several listservs,
>> including yours, that are flooding my account with email.
>> This is apparently being done by Bahais in conjunction
>> with a simultaneously attempt to have me removed from
>> AOL by Bahai Forum Leader Mark Foster in retaliation
>> for my role in helping to create an unmoderated forum on
>> Usenet, talk.religion.bahai, which they opposed for more
>> than two years.
>>
>> If you are the listowner or can help, please remove my
>> address from your list of subscribers.
>>
>> FG@hotmail.com
>>
>
>Fred, as you may remember, baha'is did the exact same thing to me last
year.
>In fact one of them even emailed me to tell me "why" all those emails were
>coming to me. As you may remember, I took the case to my University
computer
>administration department and made a big fuss of it on the newsgroups and
>voila! The emails stopped. It seems these baha'is wisened up that bad
>publicity for these tactics of theirs wasn't a by-product of their hideous
>actions that they desired. It seems no matter what, this censorship
mentality
>is deeply ingrained within them. Its a good thing I am a student and also
>self-employed otherwise God knows what they would have tried to pull off
with
>my employer. If you remember two Iranian baha'is (I believe Shahram and
>Faryar on soc.culture.iranian) diddn't like each other (Faryar was a
>fundamentalist while Shahram (?) wasn't) and Faryar tried to get the other
>guy fired. We found out about it, again, because Shahram posted his story
on
>the Net and again Voila! Faryar stopped what he was doing. Behind all that
>surface patronizing smiles, there are a lot of dark hideous workings in the
>minds of the above baha'is who have been doing these things.
>
>I wish you the best of luck.
>
>Afshin Afrashteh
>
>Answering Bahaullah
>https://www.geocities.com/pentagon/3016/main.htm
>
>
>
>> owner-java-com@DISCUSS.MICROSOFT.COM
>> Java-COM@DISCUSS.MICROSOFT.COM
>>
>> LINGUIST@LINGUIST.LDC.UPENN.EDU
>> LISTSERV@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU
>> linguist@linguistlist.org
>>
>> PENNSYLVANIA-ROOTS-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU
>> owner-pennsylvania-roots-l@listserv.indiana.edu
>> DEEP-SOUTH-ROOTS-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU
>>
>>
>
>-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
>https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Monday, February 08, 1999 9:45 PM
Subject: Re: Bahai revenge - LISTSERV terrorism ( censorship on AOL (Re: 14+ million AOL members & Bahai censorship))
If anyone can help me figure out what Bahais have done
to subscribe me to these listservs and help me get off them
I'd appreciate it.
-----
Someone has subscribed me to several listservs
including yours that are flooding me with email.
I need to block the entire listserv.
I you are the listowner or can help, please
remove my address from your list of subscribers.
FG@hotmail.com
owner-java-com@DISCUSS.MICROSOFT.COM
Java-COM@DISCUSS.MICROSOFT.COM
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----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 09, 1999 7:49 AM
Subject: Re: Call for Manuscripts - - New Publisher
Smaneck wrote in message <19990207040108.23947.00001111@ng-ch1.aol.com>...
>Andy writes:
>
>>But Mr. Glaysher was unclear as to exactly what he was going to
>>publish, and rather than asking for clarification, you jumped
>>on him with both feet, assuming the worst.
>
>Dear Andy,
>
>I don't have to ask what Fred intends to publish because it is all up on
his
>website right now.
What Ms. Maneck seeks now to conceal may be
read and judged for yourself at
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/Maneck1.htm
>
>>How can you justify
>>this as a Baha'i or as a scholar, even in the light of Mr.
>>Glaysher's past errors?
>
>If it were a matter of "past errors" Mr. Glaysher would have long ago
taken
>down people's personal correspondence from his web which he put up under
>protest.
Other than a few rightwing Bahais like Ms. Maneck, who wish
to conceal their various forms of deceit and treachery, only a
couple of people have ever complained about their messages
appearing on my website. She's definitely attempting to inflate
the numbers and obscure that facts of how low she and other
literalist Bahai lackies are willing to go to "serve" the Faith.
>
>>What I am most seriously suggesting, though, is that when we
>>have something to say to someone that concerns possible
>>litigation or is more of a one on one issue that does not
>>concern others beyond their appetites for gossip and scandal,
>>or is of a personal nature, it should be done privately or not
>>at all. Not everything is for the public view.
>
>Again, Andy, it is Fred's own policy of loudly demanding that no one send
him
>personal posts and then posting them publicly if they do, which forces me
into
>the position of voices all my objections quite publicly.
I should permit people to threaten and intimidate me in
secrecy? Such Bahais certainly demonstrate the old
saw evil thrives on secrecy....
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/AOL.htm
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/hate.htm
>Susan Stiles Maneck
>History, Stetson University
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 09, 1999 7:56 AM
Subject: Re: Bahai revenge - LISTSERV attack ( censorship on AOL (Re: 14+ million AOL members & Bahai censorship))
Smaneck wrote in message <19990208205338.22221.00000404@ng-fi1.aol.com>...
>>A Bahai has subscribed me to at least four more
>>listservs today for a total of at least EIGHT.
>
>Where's your evidence?
The same day Mark Foster, Bahai Forum Leader on AOL,
after an absence of more than EIGHT MONTHS,
began to forward every message I posted to the TOSGeneral,
the LISTSERV onslaught commenced.... My messages on
AOL were no more off-topic than anyone else's in those
forums.
It's precisely the type of terrorist techniques Ms. Maneck and
other Bahais so frequently use. See her denouncing and
calling for a NO vote on talk.religion.bahai one week before
the end of the interest poll. Note well that she never participated
during the entire previous TWO years of discussion but came
in screaming hysterics at the most sensitive of moments. Her
demanding evidence here now smacks of more deceit....
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/Maneck1.htm
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 09, 1999 8:06 AM
To: talisman
Subject: 1,118+ posts to talk.religion.bahai in 3 weeks
Over 1, 118 posts to talk.religion.bahai in, what,
three weeks....
More posts than I can keep up with, and I'm sure
many of you must be finding it equally difficult.
Talk.religion.glaysher, indeed....
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 09, 1999 8:06 AM
Subject: 1,118+ posts to talk.religion.bahai in 3 weeks
Over 1, 118 posts to talk.religion.bahai in, what,
three weeks....
More posts than I can keep up with, and I'm sure
many of you must be finding it equally difficult.
Talk.religion.glaysher, indeed....
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 09, 1999 8:19 AM
Subject: fw CCrawfeild REPRINT OF CENSORED POST(corrected)
Subject: REPRINT OF CENSORED POST(corrected)
Date: 2/8/1999 3:29 PM Eastern Standard Time
From: CCrawfeild
Message-id: <19990208152902.22205.00000162@ng-fi1.aol.com>
Sorry, I had to pull this one. Calling people "thugs" is not really
appropriate on the forum. I suggest that you focus on why you might disagree
with a person's views and not call people names.
Mark A. Foster, Baha'i Forum Manager
[AOL Bahai Forum Censor]
Subject: Re: Christine - ??
Date: 2/8/99 13:25 Central Standard Time
From: CCrawfeild
Message-id: <19990208142528.22223.00000093@ng-fi1.aol.com>
Dear PL,
May I pleas respond.
>But what you are really saying is that you simply don't _like_ what the
>Baha'i Faith does or says all the time.
Of course I don't like the faith..and more, the Baha'i faith is seldom
questioned, so almost all the time all you ever hear is unopposed
dogma(exept on-line) Most people are nice when they are not threatened.
>regard to the women on the UHJ issue, you do what you accuse them of doing:
>you simply dismiss their answer out of hand _because it
>doesn't suit you_ or fit whatever you perceive to be "right."
Not true- I don't dismiss their answer I am using their standards of
equality on the equality of men and woman. Therefore I like to bring it up
in front of seekers in order to aid their "independent investigation of the
truth"
>No one is forced to join or declare.
But often Seekers are not given the full picture. I have witnessed many
times Baha'i attempting to paint a picture of the faith to suit the seekers
preconceived notions of religion. If a seeker was Christian they will paint
a picture that Jesus is the ONLY son of God. The wont come out and say that
directly, but they will twist the truth around to the limit without actually
lying, just to give that impression.
> If a seeker has a particular issue(s) that they are concerned with, they
>should have commonsense enough to ask about it before they become Baha'is.
A seeker is usually an honest person asking for the first time about the
Baha'i faith. A baha'i usually is very skilled at twisting words around to
try to "sell" the faith. Since the Baha'i aren't too well known, a lot of
times the poor seeker has only the Baha'i word to go on BAHA'Is want to keep
it that way for as long as posable to maintain control. That is why people
like Wendy and ***** *****(censored by Mark Foster) look under a
microscope for reasons to TOS
people who criticize the faith.
>They may even get nasty.
PL--Not may. They have been nasty. and manipulative, and mean, and violent.
>As far as warning seekers to be careful, I wonder why anyone feels such
>responsibility? Is it to warn them or could it be that you simply are still
>so upset by the fact that the Baha'i Faith and individual Baha'i don't meet
>your standards?
It is because the Baha'is have hurt me, and wouldn't support me when I
needed help. I was very hurt by members of the faith and the "faith" turned
a blind eye.. So yes, I hold resentment. Good or bad that's why I like to
come and post here.
Love,
Christine
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 09, 1999 8:27 AM
Subject: Re: Copyright
Arash Tirandaz wrote in message <36BFCD7D.4DBDD6FF@dallas.net>...
>
>
>Vinson Jamir wrote:
>
>> My favorite slur in Baha'i literature is Shoghi Effendi's public
remark about
>> his "faithless brother" Hussein's choice for a wife as a "lowborn
Christian girl."
>> (Shoghi Effendi, "Citadel of Faith," p.78)
Mine too.... It's so revealing of the mentality many Iranian
Bahais seek to conceal behind their sneers of contempt.
To call someone a "lowborn
>Christian girl" is not a derogatory term, it merely represents the writer's
wish to
>explain that she was not born in a family of great means. But, for you to
take this out
>of context and to further call this a "slur" is certainly repugnant,
offensive, and
>derogatory!!
Here we have it again.... This cultural racism of Iranians
manifests itself in many ways in everyday Bahai "community"
life....
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: K. Paul Johnson[SMTP:pjohnson@vsla.edu]
Sent: Tuesday, February 09, 1999 5:49 PM
To: FG
Subject: Re: Relentlessly Aggressive
According to FG:
>
> Paul,
>
> I'm not sure which message you mean. I've been
> filtering out Schaut for more than week. Just tired
> of wasting time on him. Send it to me and I'll
> repost it though.
>
> Fred
>
Hi Fred,
I mean the one on your website entitled "Relentlessly Aggressive
Cult Apologists." I didn't save it, and can't print it from the
site for some reason. But never mind, I would just rather try to
forget all about him.
Thanks,
Paul
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 09, 1999 5:39 PM
To: K. Paul Johnson
Subject: Re: Relentlessly Aggressive
Paul,
I'm not sure which message you mean. I've been
filtering out Schaut for more than week. Just tired
of wasting time on him. Send it to me and I'll
repost it though.
Fred
-----Original Message-----
From: K. Paul Johnson <pjohnson@vsla.edu>
To: FG@hotmail.com <FG@hotmail.com>
Date: Tuesday, February 09, 1999 1:51 AM
Subject: Relentlessly Aggressive
>Dear Fred,
>
>Is there any way you can repost my talk.religion.misc post
>inspired by Schaut's nastiness, or at least a link to it, on trb?
>Since he brought it up, I'd like for people to know what it was.
>
>Cheers,
>
>Paul
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 1999 7:25 AM
To: K. Paul Johnson
Subject: Re: Relentlessly Aggressive
Ignore him. Shun him in reverse....
-----Original Message-----
From: K. Paul Johnson <pjohnson@vsla.edu>
To: FG <FG@hotmail.com>
Date: Tuesday, February 09, 1999 8:50 AM
Subject: Re: Relentlessly Aggressive
>According to FG:
>>
>> Paul,
>>
>> I'm not sure which message you mean. I've been
>> filtering out Schaut for more than week. Just tired
>> of wasting time on him. Send it to me and I'll
>> repost it though.
>>
>> Fred
>>
>
>Hi Fred,
>
>I mean the one on your website entitled "Relentlessly Aggressive
>Cult Apologists." I didn't save it, and can't print it from the
>site for some reason. But never mind, I would just rather try to
>forget all about him.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Paul
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 1999 7:28 AM
To: Stephens, Larry V
Cc: help@hotmail.com; abuse@hotmail.com; support@hotmail.com
Subject: Re: false listserv subscription
I appreciate your attempt. I'm forwarding to you and
hotmail.com the full headers from a number of messages
in case that helps. I'm definitely still receiving messages
from your list and others.
FG@hotmail.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Stephens, Larry V <stephenl@indiana.edu>
To: 'FG' <FG@hotmail.com>
Date: Monday, February 08, 1999 12:07 AM
Subject: RE: false listserv subscription
>I did a remove for your address and it found no entries.
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: FG [SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
>> Sent: Monday, February 08, 1999 7:00 AM
>> To: STEPHENL@indiana.edu
>> Subject: false listserv subscription
>>
>> I've tried to receive your Review of subscribers list
>> but the robot won't permit me to get it. Someone must
>> have subscribed me under a false name and then is
>> forwarding it through another address or something.
>> It just started on the 4th or 5th if you can determine
>> what addresses are newly added.
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> I appreciate your help.
>>
>> FG
>> FG@hotmail.com
>>
>>
>> ______________________________________________________
>> Get Your Private, Free Email at https://www.hotmail.com
Someone has subscribed me to several listservs
including yours that are flooding me with email.
A hotmail tech person suggested I Block them under
Options but it's not working because only the
individual is being blocked. I need to block the
entire listserv.
I you are the listowner or can help, please
remove my address from your list of subscribers.
Please help! This is extremely frustrating. I've
tried nearly a dozen times now to reach someone
at hotmail to help I just keep getting
autoresponders!
FG@hotmail.com
owner-java-com@DISCUSS.MICROSOFT.COM
Java-COM@DISCUSS.MICROSOFT.COM
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LISTSERV@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU
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----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 1999 7:41 AM
To: Juan Cole
Subject: Stephen Birkland Letter (Re: Call for Manuscripts - - New Publisher)
Juan Cole will have to answer this one. What's on my
website is merely a copy from his.
Notice Ms. Maneck doesn't deny her involvement in deceit
and treachery and now her attempt to conceal it....
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
Smaneck wrote in message <19990209090527.22206.00000645@ng-fi1.aol.com>...
>>Other than a few rightwing Bahais like Ms. Maneck, who wish
>>to conceal their various forms of deceit and treachery, only a
>>couple of people have ever complained about their messages
>>appearing on my website.
>
>Speaking of deceit, Fred, why don' tyou explain your leaving out this key
>passage from your posting of Mr. Birkland's letter to the academic from
your
>website?
>
>"The nature of the problem which your activities were creating for
>the Baha'i community were clarified when you accidentally posted
>to the Talisman forum a private message apparently intended for a
>smaller group of participants, identified by you as "Majnun." You
>cannot be unaware of the sense of betrayal experienced by your
>fellow Baha'is, who had believed themselves engaged in a scholarly
>exploration of Baha'u'llah's purpose, when they read a statement
>which appeared to lay out a cynical "winning strategy" designed to
>use the Talisman forum to spread disinformation, attack the United
>States National Spiritual Assembly, and bring the administrative
>processes of the Cause into discredit. Nor should you be
>surprised at the dismay caused by your readiness, in this same
>statement, to recognize a parallel between the activities of this
>inner group and those of the notorious Covenant-breaker Ahmad
>Sohrab. It was keenly disappointing to all of us who respected
>both your adherence to the Cause and your professional
>credentials, that you failed to immediately explain what seemed a
>disturbing departure from standards which participants in such a
>forum had every right to expect."
>
>You wouldn't be trying to mislead people would you?
>Susan Stiles Maneck
>History, Stetson University
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 1999 7:41 AM
Subject: Stephen Birkland Letter (Re: Call for Manuscripts - - New Publisher)
Juan Cole will have to answer this one. What's on my
website is merely a copy from his.
Notice Ms. Maneck doesn't deny her involvement in deceit
and treachery and now her attempt to conceal it....
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
Smaneck wrote in message <19990209090527.22206.00000645@ng-fi1.aol.com>...
>>Other than a few rightwing Bahais like Ms. Maneck, who wish
>>to conceal their various forms of deceit and treachery, only a
>>couple of people have ever complained about their messages
>>appearing on my website.
>
>Speaking of deceit, Fred, why don' tyou explain your leaving out this key
>passage from your posting of Mr. Birkland's letter to the academic from
your
>website?
>
>"The nature of the problem which your activities were creating for
>the Baha'i community were clarified when you accidentally posted
>to the Talisman forum a private message apparently intended for a
>smaller group of participants, identified by you as "Majnun." You
>cannot be unaware of the sense of betrayal experienced by your
>fellow Baha'is, who had believed themselves engaged in a scholarly
>exploration of Baha'u'llah's purpose, when they read a statement
>which appeared to lay out a cynical "winning strategy" designed to
>use the Talisman forum to spread disinformation, attack the United
>States National Spiritual Assembly, and bring the administrative
>processes of the Cause into discredit. Nor should you be
>surprised at the dismay caused by your readiness, in this same
>statement, to recognize a parallel between the activities of this
>inner group and those of the notorious Covenant-breaker Ahmad
>Sohrab. It was keenly disappointing to all of us who respected
>both your adherence to the Cause and your professional
>credentials, that you failed to immediately explain what seemed a
>disturbing departure from standards which participants in such a
>forum had every right to expect."
>
>You wouldn't be trying to mislead people would you?
>Susan Stiles Maneck
>History, Stetson University
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 1999 7:51 AM
Subject: Re: Bahai revenge - Maneck's Slander ( censorship on AOL (Re: 14+ million AOL members & Bahai censorship))
Smaneck wrote in message <19990209085942.22206.00000642@ng-fi1.aol.com>...
>Fred asserts:
>
>>>>A Bahai has subscribed me to at least four more
>>>>listservs today for a total of at least EIGHT.
>
>To which I asked:
>>>
>>>Where's your evidence?
>
>To which Fred replies:
>
>>The same day Mark Foster, Bahai Forum Leader on AOL,
>>after an absence of more than EIGHT MONTHS,
>>began to forward every message I posted to the TOSGeneral,
>>the LISTSERV onslaught commenced..
>
>That's evidence? I'm if you'd gotten hit by a car the same day it would be
>prove that Mark or I were trying to kill you as well!
A predictable equivocation....
>
>>It's precisely the type of terrorist techniques Ms. Maneck and
>>other Bahais so frequently use. See her denouncing and
>>calling for a NO vote on talk.religion.bahai one week before
>>the end of the interest poll.
>
>Couldn't have had anything to do with the kind of slander against the
Baha'i
>forum on AOL which you using to promote the newsgroup during the time of
the
>interest poll? One week before the end of the interest poll, incidently I
had
>stopped calling for a NO vote because you had temporarily stopped posting
such
>slander.
Your vague blanket accusation of slander is no more
true because you continue to repeat it week after week. I've
asked you before and ask you again to present the "evidence."
I'm entitled to my opinions, and you may imagine they're "slander,"
but I certainly think otherwise. Your attack of slander may
have slowed slightly before the very end of the poll. The exact time
frame is now difficult to recall. I remember I thought it best to
deal with your slander and demagoguery by attempting to
ignore it. You were obviously trying to whip up passions. You
were and are mistaken if you think that proves something
for you....
It should be noted that one of the Bahai Techniques is to
change the subject into who said what when why how etc....
In fact, this should perhaps be called the Maneck Technique.
Might be a new regular posting in that....
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
>
>
>Susan Stiles Maneck
>History, Stetson University
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 1999 7:54 AM
Subject: Re: Bahai revenge - LISTSERV attack ( censorship on AOL (Re: 14+ million AOL members & Bahai censorship))
afshin.afrashteh@utoronto.ca wrote in message
<79r4tp$mem$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>
>Any postings on a public newsgroup are public and not subject to "requests
>for permission to post to another web site". If you do not wish it to be
>posted then don't write it in the first place and put it on newsgroups.
Maneck is attempting to hide her anti-intellectual, non-scholarly
fascism and terrorist techniques.... Perhaps she's worrying about
getting tenure someday....
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 1999 7:57 AM
Subject: Re: Bahai revenge - LISTSERV attack ( censorship on AOL (Re: 14+ million AOL members & Bahai censorship))
Smaneck wrote in message <19990210005341.28843.00001383@ng-ch1.aol.com>...
>Afshin writes:
>
>>Any postings on a public newsgroup are public and not subject to "requests
>>for permission to post to another web site". If you do not wish it to be
>>posted then don't write it in the first place and put it on newsgroups.
>
>Fred does not just put up postings to a public newgroup on his website. He
>places private correspondence there as well.
"Private"? Letters of coercion and deceit are not
matters of private concern but public.... Notice this
is the real issue. Bahai fundamentalists like Maneck
want to continue to be able to terrorize people with
impunity....
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 1999 1:21 PM
Subject: Re: An apology to Fred
jrcole@umich.edu wrote in message <79sbme$o16$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>
>I mean, I'd be glad to be a Baha'i. But not at the price
>of my personal integrity.
Pretty much the way I feel too.... Given all the lies and deceit
and "hikmat" and hiding behind contemptible lackies, I don't
know why I don't resign too....
I recall the words of Robert Hayden to me so many times:
"Why I continue to have anything to do with Bahais,
I do not know. I do not know."
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 1999 8:10 PM
To: abuse@hotmail.com
Cc: help@hotmail.com
Subject: Re: CST294059ID - No body
Can you help me identify WHERE outside of hotmail
they are coming from? The managers of the LISTSERVS
all say they are not coming from their lists and my name
does not appear on their subscriptions lists.
-----Original Message-----
From: abuse@hotmail.com <abuse@hotmail.com>
To: FG@hotmail.com <FG@hotmail.com>
Date: Wednesday, February 10, 1999 2:06 PM
Subject: RE: CST294059ID - No body
>Dear Hotmail Member,
>
>Thank you for your message to Hotmail. We are unable to take action
>against this person since this unsolicited email was sent from an outside
>source, not Hotmail. We thank you for bringing it to our attention and we
>suggest that you use the Filters and/or the Block Sender options. Hotmail
>offers the option of blocking a sender or filtering messages, giving you
>more control over the type of email that you receive. You can use the
>Block Sender option to block unwanted email from specific senders. By
>adding an email address to the Block Sender List, any email sent from that
>address is automatically filtered to your Trash Can. By using filters, you
>can direct incoming messages to specific folders. This is especially
>useful when a sender of unsolicited bulk email (AKA "spam") changes his or
>her address slightly, but the message content remains the same.
>
>To Block a Sender by Using the Options Page
>1. Click the "Options" button on the Navigation Bar.
> You are taken to the Options page.
>2. Click the "Filters" button.
> You are taken to the Filters page.
>3. In the Block Senders List, type the exact email address that you
>want to block.
>4. If you want to add more than one address, separate each address by
>a space and a comma.
>5. Click "OK" at the bottom of the page.
>
>If you are reading a message and you want to block the person who sent
>that message, click the "Block Sender" button, located next to the
>address.
>To delete a blocked sender, select the address that you want to delete and
>delete it from Block Senders List.
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>To Create a Filter
>1. Click the "Options" button on the Navigation Bar.
> You are taken to the Options page.
>2. Click the "Filters" button.
> You are taken to the Filters page.
>3. Scroll down to Incoming Mail Filters.
> You see several table rows containing the filter number and criteria.
>4. In the Filter 1 row, from the first menu, choose "Subject," "From
>Name," or "From Addr." "Subject" filters the message based on its subject.
>"From Name" filters the message based on the sender's name.
>"From Addr" filters the message based on the sender's email address.
>5. From the second menu, choose "contains," "does not contain,"
>"contains word," "starts with," or "ends with."
> a. "contains" searches for a specified word, partial word, or partial
>sentence
> Example: If you typed "Fred" the filter would find all instances of
> "Fred," "Fredrick," "Freddie," etc.
> b. "does not contain" is the opposite of "contains" Example:
> If you typed "Fred" the filter would find all instances of
> anything other than "Fred"; "Scarlett," "Rhett," etc.
> c. "contains word" searches for the EXACT word. No partial words are
>included.
> Example: If you typed "Fred" the filter would find all instances of
> "Fred" NOT INCLUDING "Frederick," "Freddie," etc.
> d. "starts with" searches for a sentence or word that begins with
> the specified word or partial word. Example:
> If you typed "FredTech@hot" the filter would search for all
> messages that contain: "FredTech@hot", such as
> "FredTech@hotmail.com," "FredTech@hots.com," "FredTech@hotday.com,"
>etc.
> e. "ends with" searches for a sentence or word that ends with the
> specified word or partial word. Example:
> If you typed in "@aol.com" the filter would search for all
> messages that contain "@aol.com" such as
> "vleigh_gwtw@aol.com," "gablec_gwtw@aol.com," etc.
>6. In the text field, type the string for which you want to search.
>7. From the "Then Deliver To" menu, choose the name of the folder to
>which you want the filtered mail delivered.
>8. To save your filters, click the "Apply Filters Now" button; then click
>"OK".
>
>
>MSN Hotmail Support
>--- Original Message ---
>From: FG@hotmail.com
>To: abuse@hotmail.com
>Sent: 2/10/99 5:06:12 AM
>Subject: No body
>
>Someone has subscribed me to several listservs
>including yours that are flooding me with email.
>A hotmail tech person suggested I Block them under
>Options but it's not working because only the
>individual is being blocked. I need to block the
>entire listserv.
>I you are the listowner or can help, please
>remove my address from your list of subscribers.
>Please help! This is extremely frustrating. I've
>tried nearly a dozen times now to reach someone
>at hotmail to help I just keep getting
>autoresponders!
>FG@hotmail.com
>owner-java-com@DISCUSS.MICROSOFT.COM
>Java-COM@DISCUSS.MICROSOFT.COM
>LINGUIST@LINGUIST.LDC.UPENN.EDU
>LISTSERV@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU
>linguist@linguistlist.org
>PENNSYLVANIA-ROOTS-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU
>owner-pennsylvania-roots-l@listserv.indiana.edu
>DEEP-SOUTH-ROOTS-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU
>MTG-STRATEGY-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
>PLI-Y2KLAW@PLI.EDU
>owner-pli-y2klaw@pli.edu
>From: Stan Berkovich <stan@BEDOUIN.COM> Save Address Block Sender
>Reply-To: Java and COM <Java-COM@DISCUSS.MICROSOFT.COM>
>To: Java-COM@DISCUSS.MICROSOFT.COM
>Subject: Re: com.ms.vm.WeakReference and finalize() (Slightly off-topic)
>Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 15:30:33 -0600
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>From owner-java-com@DISCUSS.MICROSOFT.COM Tue Feb 09 13:57:57 1999
>Received: from [204.68.24.170] by hotmail.com (1.1) with SMTP id
> MHotMailB889FA534AE09D1017077CC4418AA9CF90; Tue Feb 09 13:57:57 1999
>Received: (qmail 22907 invoked by uid 0); 9 Feb 1999 21:36:55 -0000
>Received: from vms.dc.lsoft.com [209.119.1.27] by mx05 via mtad
>Đ/LM/W3SVC/1/Root/CSS
>
>
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Friday, February 12, 1999 9:07 AM
Subject: Re: Majnun post
jrcole@umich.edu wrote in message <79vn9b$o5o$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>
>And it was all for naught. H-Bahai has replaced Talisman for the academic
>stuff, talk.religion.bahai for the general schmoozing. (I, incidentally,
was
>the one who put Fred up to promoting talk.religion.bahai, after my
discussions
>with Usenet officials about the censorship policies on srb). Neither list
is
>controlled by the 'institutions'. So they completely failed in their
>objectives, and just made the faith look bad in the attempt.
While it is true Juan suggested to me the possibility of creating
talk.religion.bahai, I am the one who decided to sacrifice for
two arduous years.... Juan leaves out the fact that the censorship
he imposed on talisman was just as central to my decision to
persevere as that on soc.religion.bahai. Having witnessed both his,
Maneck's, and others' use and abuse of talisman and h-bahai for
their own little academic projects, I became all the more determined
that an unmoderated forum no one could control was essential.
Incidentally, I have intentionally restrained the number of my posts
since January 18th so that the news.groupies and others who are
still following along may judge for themselves whether the level of
interest justifies the creation of talk.religion.bahai.
1,348 messages this morning....
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: Juan Cole[SMTP:jrcole@umich.edu]
Sent: Friday, February 12, 1999 12:45 PM
To: FG@hotmail.com
Subject: hi! and mischief
Dear Fred:
I hastened to clarify that you are certainly the protagonist of trb and
to give you full credit.
Incidentally, why don't you try to find out Henderson's and the other
NSA members' salaries and perks? You are still an enrolled member in
good standing, as I understand it. And my understanding is that by
Illinois law they have to let you inspect the budget, since it is an
incorporated non-profit. And it is not as if they can do anything to
you? I wish I'd done this before I left!
cheers Juan
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, February 13, 1999 7:32 AM
To: hostmgr@aol.com
Subject: Re: Majnun post
jrcole@umich.edu wrote in message <7a37u4$o79$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
Dr. Juan Cole wrote:
It is a very, very, very weird
>religion. And if anyone is reading Susan Maneck's absolutely bone-chilling
>screeds on the desirability of Heresy Trials and carefulness in Shunning,
>they are seeing what it is like at the core of the religion.
>
>I really am sorry for them and her, since they seem sort of filled with
hate
>and quite paranoid, yet say they are preaching love, unity and tolerance.
>Susan will say, 'may your abdomen be split by lightning and your guts fall
>out you filthy heretic whom I wish I could just have shunned and buried',
and
>then she'll sign herself "warmest" and slander a university by adding it
to
>her sig line. As if what she is about has anything at all to do with
>*universities*!
For Maneck, Mark Foster, and other Bahai fundamentalists,
"hikmat" justifies anything.... This is all very true too of the way she's
operating on AOL, where she knows AOL personnel are naive in
these matters and can be easily manipulated....
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, February 13, 1999 7:32 AM
Subject: Re: Majnun post
jrcole@umich.edu wrote in message <7a37u4$o79$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
Dr. Juan Cole wrote:
It is a very, very, very weird
>religion. And if anyone is reading Susan Maneck's absolutely bone-chilling
>screeds on the desirability of Heresy Trials and carefulness in Shunning,
>they are seeing what it is like at the core of the religion.
>
>I really am sorry for them and her, since they seem sort of filled with
hate
>and quite paranoid, yet say they are preaching love, unity and tolerance.
>Susan will say, 'may your abdomen be split by lightning and your guts fall
>out you filthy heretic whom I wish I could just have shunned and buried',
and
>then she'll sign herself "warmest" and slander a university by adding it
to
>her sig line. As if what she is about has anything at all to do with
>*universities*!
For Maneck, Mark Foster, and other Bahai fundamentalists,
"hikmat" justifies anything.... This is all very true too of the way she's
operating on AOL, where she knows AOL personnel are naive in
these matters and can be easily manipulated....
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, February 13, 1999 7:47 AM
Subject: Re: `Abdul-Baha on rights & President Wilson's 14 points
jrcole@umich.edu wrote in message <7a38dr$ok1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>Selections from the Writings of `Abdu'l-Bahá, pp. 109-110:
>
>. . .religion must be the cause of amity, union and harmony among men. They
>establish the equality of both sexes and propound economic principles which
>are for the happiness of individuals. They diffuse universal education,
that
>every soul may as much as possible have a share of knowledge. They abrogate
>and nullify religious, racial, political, patriotic and economic prejudices
>and the like. Those teachings that are scattered throughout the Epistles
and
>Tablets are the cause of the illumination and the life of the world of
>humanity. Whoever promulgateth them will verily be assisted by the Kingdom
of
>God. The President of the Republic, Dr. Wilson, is indeed serving the
Kingdom
>of God for he is restless and strives day and night that the rights of all
>men may be preserved safe and secure, that even small nations, like greater
>ones, may dwell in peace and comfort, under the protection of Righteousness
>and Justice. This purpose is indeed a lofty one. I trust that the
>incomparable Providence will assist and confirm such souls under all
>conditions.
A passage I have always revered.
But perhaps only Abdul-Baha's "hikmat," lying deceit, Towfiqism,
calculated to appeal to the gullible Westerners who know no
better? I would like to think not, but, given what the Bahai Faith
has become for so many, I am less confident....
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, February 13, 1999 3:19 PM
Subject: Re: Baha'i Schools of Thought
Smaneck wrote in message <19990212193747.20959.00001091@ng-fi1.aol.com>...
>
>Certainly this passage from the Feb. 8 letter of the House of Justice
suggests
>that:
>
>"It is not surprising that individual Baha'is hold and express different
>and sometimes defective understandings of the Teachings; this is but an
>evidence of the magnitude of the change that this Revelation is to effect
>in human consciousness. As believers with various insights into the
>Teachings converse -- with patience, tolerance and open and unbiased minds
>-- a deepening of comprehension should take place. The strident
>insistence on individual views, however, can lead to contention, which is
>detrimental not only to the spirit of Baha'i association and collaboration
>but to the search for truth itself."
Sounds fascist. The kind of thing one finds on soc.religion.bahai
and AOL Bahai "Forums."
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Monday, February 15, 1999 8:12 AM
To: Juan Cole
Subject: Re: Collection of Articles
Juan,
I'm unfamiliar with Jackson. Could you send
me his email if you have it? I thought you were
one of the authors of the Service of Women.
The copy I have has your name on it:
The Service of Women on the Institutions of the Baha'i Faith
Anthony A. Lee, Peggy Caton, Richard Hollinger, Marjan Nirou, Nader
Saiedi, Shahin Carrigan, Jackson Armstong-Ingram, and Juan R. I.
Cole.
Who did write it?
Fred
-----Original Message-----
From: Juan Cole <jrcole@umich.edu>
To: FG <FG@hotmail.com>
Date: Saturday, February 06, 1999 1:28 PM
Subject: Re: Collection of Articles
>
>Dear Fred:
>
>I don't know the history of the Service of Women paper from the inside
>because I wasn't around then; maybe in Egypt. Steve Scholl or Jackson would
>be the ones to ask.
>
>
>cheers Juan
>
>
>
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Monday, February 15, 1999 10:24 AM
Subject: Re: The Maneck Technique
Juan Cole, February 13, 1999:
"It is a very, very, very weirdreligion. And if anyone is reading
Susan Maneck's absolutely bone-chilling screeds on the
desirability of Heresy Trials and carefulness in Shunning,
they are seeing what it is like at the core of the religion."
"I really am sorry for them and her, since they seem sort of filled with
hate and quite paranoid, yet say they are preaching love, unity and
tolerance. Susan will say, 'may your abdomen be split by lightning
and your guts fall out you filthy heretic whom I wish I could just have
shunned and buried', and then she'll sign herself "warmest" and
slander a university by adding it to her sig line. As if what she is
about has anything at all to do with *universities*!"
FG, February 15, 1999:
"Ms. Maneck's approach appears to me to be always to
shunt the discussion off or back to who said what where when
why how and so on.... The farther back in time the better since
the person's memory, being human, is bound to be unable to
keep up or to have stocked the evidence needed on his or her
hard drive or find it on dejanews.com. Further, she relies on the
tactics of demagoguery knowing they usually prevail and will be
supported by other fundamentalist Bahais. By schrieking
slander and referring to others' opinions as "garbage," she is
able to create an emotional atmosphere that essentially negates
whatever the topic or content might be."
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: Bruce Burrill[SMTP:brburl@mailbag.com]
Sent: Monday, February 15, 1999 4:27 PM
To: FG@hotmail.com
Are the screeds that Juan is talking available online?
Juan Cole, February 13, 1999:
"It is a very, very, very weirdreligion. And if anyone is reading
Susan Maneck's absolutely bone-chilling screeds on the
desirability of Heresy Trials and carefulness in Shunning,
they are seeing what it is like at the core of the religion."
"I really am sorry for them and her, since they seem sort of filled with
hate and quite paranoid, yet say they are preaching love, unity and
tolerance. Susan will say, 'may your abdomen be split by lightning
and your guts fall out you filthy heretic whom I wish I could just have
shunned and buried', and then she'll sign herself "warmest" and
slander a university by adding it to her sig line. As if what she is
about has anything at all to do with *universities*!"
FG, February 15, 1999:
"Ms. Maneck's approach appears to me to be always to
shunt the discussion off or back to who said what where when
why how and so on.... The farther back in time the better since
the person's memory, being human, is bound to be unable to
keep up or to have stocked the evidence needed on his or her
hard drive or find it on dejanews.com. Further, she relies on the
tactics of demagoguery knowing they usually prevail and will be
supported by other fundamentalist Bahais. By schrieking
slander and referring to others' opinions as "garbage," she is
able to create an emotional atmosphere that essentially negates
whatever the topic or content might be."
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 1999 7:48 AM
Subject: Re: Bahai revenge - LISTSERV attack ( censorship on AOL (Re: 14+ million AOL members & Bahai censorship))
While Bahais continue their bombing of my account with
bogus subscriptions from listservs, hotmail.com has
helped to remove the attack as a problem.... It has also been
remedied in other ways that I shan't disclose for obvious
reasons.
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 1999 8:16 AM
Subject: Re: All are pure, consort with all--Baha'u'llah
Smaneck wrote in message <19990214113832.20954.00002202@ng-fi1.aol.com>...
>Quite true. And Baha'is are required to uphold the rights of
Covenant-breakers
>as well
Not that Bahais ever do....
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 1999 8:20 AM
Subject: Re: American Coversions: Islam vs. Baha'i
jrcole@umich.edu wrote in message <7a5eqa$ftq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>
If things
>go on this way, they have a *far* brighter future in the U.S. than do
>Baha'is, who constitute only 60,000 or so adults in reality, many of whom
>join for relatively short periods and leave, to be replaced by other
>short-timers.
I've heard you cite the number before of only about
25,000 Bahais in the US after sifting through the inflated
official numbers, such as 140,000.
Are you revising that up now?
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 1999 8:26 AM
Subject: Re: American Coversions: Islam vs. Baha'i
jrcole@umich.edu wrote in message <7a89ad$mgc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>
>>The Baha'is had 48,000 or so adults in 1979; 12,000 Iranians came in
during
>the 1980s; and they have 60,000 or so adults they can actually find now.
>This means that there has been no growth through conversion in the past 20
>years in the U.S. Baha'i community, despite the phoney numbers put out from
>Wilmette.
"Actually find now" in reality only means that the NSA
can mail their piece of propaganda trash, the American
Bahai, to them and it doesn't bounce....
I demanded they stop mailing it to me over two and a
half years ago and that in itself required THREE requests
and an initial letter accusing me of being a covenant
breaker for even asking....
My guess is that many of those 60,000 are also people
who feel little more than contempt and disgust for the
way the fanatics are running the Bahai Faith....
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 1999 8:30 AM
Subject: Re: Baha'is Ruling the World :)
Smaneck wrote in message <19990215132021.19984.00002091@ng-cg1.aol.com>...
>Rachel asks:
>
>>When the whole world is Baha'i what happens if you don't want to be a
>>Baha'i?
>>
>Dear Rachel,
>
>Other than to say that everyone has the right not to be a Baha'i, I'm not
sure
>we have adequately worked out an answer to that question. We will need to
soon,
>not because we are likely to take over the world in the near future, but
>because once we are noticed a lot of people are going to want to know the
>answer to this question if they are not to feel threatened by our growth.
The way Bahais have opposed and suppressed people
for more than a decade now is the best answer to the
question above along with the fundamentalist battle against
the creation of talk.religion.bahai....
See Assorted Controversial Documents on my website for the details.
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 1999 8:34 AM
Subject: Re: The Message That Isn't
Smaneck wrote in message <19990215133139.19984.00002101@ng-cg1.aol.com>...
>Rachel writes:
>
>>Nevertheless as I was extolling the virtues of this wonderful medium
around
>>one of the conference's breakfast tables, someone my own age who was on a
>>national committee quickly warned that the internet was a dangerous medium
>>due to its being virtually uncensorable (my paraphrase) and that Baha'is
>>should be slow to take it up.
>>
>>Obviously she was just expressing her opinion, as I had been expressing
>>mine, but in hindsight I do wonder if she was referring to the Talisman
>>issue - but I will never know (and that is pure speculation on my part).
>>But I do remember her not being very keen on the internet at all -
precisely
>>because it is not a form of communication that can be regulated through
the
>>usual channels.
>
>Dear Rachel,
>
>I don't doubt that a lot of Baha'is alarmed at what goes on on the
internet,
>feel threatened by this medium. From the material I have seen , however,
the
>policy of the Continental Board of Counselors is to stress the positive
aspects
>of this medium. At least, this is what they have instructed their Auxiliary
>Board Members and Assistants.
I.e., their hacks and underlings who attack and coerce
people at night in secret while pretending otherwise in public....
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 1999 8:45 AM
Subject: Re: Correspondence with the House
The Universal House of Justice is definitely to blame
for all of this.... They've created and maintain an atmosphere
of distrust and oppression. It's obviously what they want....
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
Smaneck wrote in message <19990212232038.20959.00001229@ng-fi1.aol.com>...
>Rick Schaut asked about my correspondence with the Universal House of
Justice.
>For your convenience, rather than put the links up, I'll go ahead and post
>those letters directly here. Below is my first letter to the House:
>
>
>Letter One, from Maneck to the Universal House of Justice
>To: Baha'i World Centre
>Subject: Letter to the Universal House of Justice
>Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 22:38:25 EST
>
>Dear Universal House of Justice:
>
>I wish to bring to your attention a situation which I view with increasing
>dismay, and which I believe fosters an unhealthy atmosphere within the body
of
>the believers. If left unchecked, I fear the problem threatens not only the
>unity of the community, but the image of the Baha'i Faith in the eyes of
people
>of capacity and influence in the world at large. I refer to the present
>atmosphere of distrust and marginalization towards Baha'i academics, and
>the corresponding fear among some academics that there are those within the
>Administrative Order who are "out to get them."
>
>Deeply concerned over this issue, I have recently consulted with
Counsellors
>... and .... What I have observed is that some academics have, at times,
abused
>their calling as a scholars to make pronouncements on matters which are not
at
>all within their area of expertise or responsibility. To be more explicit,
it
>is my current conviction that it is a grave error for academics to attempt
any
>interference whatsoever with the proper affairs and
>functioning of Baha'u'llah's Administrative Order. Much of the
deterioration of
>relations between academics and the Administration is due to a significant
lack
>of wisdom in this regard by certain scholars. Correspondingly, an
increasing
>and alarming atmosphere of suspicion towards Baha'i academics and scholars
has
>led to the disaffection of several believers. This same atmosphere has
fuelled
>an anti-intellectual mind-set which is further encouraged
>by the current wave of "right-wing" political rhetoric so prevalent in the
>tempest-tossed and reactionary society around us. Anything causing a breach
in
>the body of the believers, or that gives rise to animosity, decreases
>enthusiasm, or stunts the efforts of expansion and consolidation, is of
serious
>concern.
>
>I am convinced that the fear and intimidation under which many scholars are
>currently forced to operate will, in the long run, prove highly detrimental
to
>the progress of scholarship within the Baha'i community. Just as the
>Administrative Order cannot rightly function without the believers trusting
in
>its self-correcting nature, so history has shown that scholarship cannot
>flourish unless it is pursued in an atmosphere of freedom from intimidation
>and interference. When the principle of the independent investigation of
truth
>(which secular scholars term academic freedom) is upheld scholarship
exercises
>the same qualities of self-correction as does our Administrative Order.
Serious
>errors will be quickly overtaken by new and better scholarship. Just as
>strident criticism often undermines the ability of the Administrative Order
to
>fulfill its sacred mandate, so institutional interference with
>scholarly issues destroys scholarship's ability to conduct an independent
>investigation of truth and to make needed corrections. Religion itself is
>damaged, for under such circumstances it often then sinks into the abyss of
>superstition.
>
>Dr. xxxx, in a widely promulgated public talk, echoed the words of our
Beloved
>Master warning of dangers posed by "enemies within" and the "mental tests"
>facing the American believers. These warnings were both prophetic and
timely.
>An upsurge of Remeyite Covenant breaking afflicted some areas of the United
>States, and increasingly their delusions were promulgated on the Internet.
>
>Unfortunately, Dr. xxxx's statements were used by many to validate their
>personal suspicions about the activities of Baha'i scholars who use
standard
>research methodology to investigate Baha'i themes. Many times I have heard
Dr.
>xxxx's talk interpreted as a direct reference to the "dangers" we scholars
and
>academics pose to the Faith. The greatest "mental test" for me has been
dealing
>with the way my thoughts and motives as a scholar are so often
>misunderstood and misrepresented within the Baha'i community. This has
become
>like acid eating away at my soul. Sadly, I find this experience is shared
by
>nearly all other Baha'i academics involved in history, religion, and Middle
>East Studies.
>
>The paralysis created by such an atmosphere often prevents scholars and
>academics from participating as they might towards meeting the goals of the
>Four Year Plan. A major area in which a considerable amount of research has
>been conducted is in the field of the mass teaching within the Baha'i
>community. Yet the information which might assist the community in reaching
its
>goal of "entry by troops" is not being utilized. Many scholars have striven
to
>encourage regular devotional meetings, yet their efforts have been largely
>ignored or even discouraged. Nor have the expertise of many Baha'i
academics
>been called upon in developing Baha'i institutes.
>
>The fears afflicting academics, and the corresponding suspicions about
them,
>often seem to be perpetuated at conferences on Baha'i scholarship itself.
While
>these conferences and workshops strengthen solidarity with the Covenant,
>discussions of Baha'i scholarship are perceived by participants as
"warnings"
>rather than encouragement. One such conference was held on 31 August 1996
at
>Green Acre Baha'i School. Although I am relying on others' notes on
>that occasion, these points seemed to be the prevailing themes:
>
>
>A condemnation of statements made by Prof. ... and Prof. ....
>A reassertion of the principle of infallibility in order to discourage the
>questioning of authority.
>That materialistic and power-oriented scholars value liberty of thought and
>personal freedom in order to further their elitist agenda.
>That one should beware of the "odor of mischief" among intellectuals.
>No mention whatsoever seems to have been made of any of the recent
achievements
>of scholarship and the contributions it could make to our understanding of
the
>Faith. It should come as no surprise that attendees at such a conference
would
>come away with the impression that scholars and their work was, at best,
>something to be wary of. It is inconceivable that anyone would come away
>valuing scholarship or encouraged to pursue it in any way.
>
>In another case, Dr. ... attended a Baha'i Studies conference in Persian at
>Louhelen Baha'i School where Counsellor ... spoke on a number of themes,
>including the Internet. As you are aware, many Baha'i academics participate
on
>Internet forums. According to Dr. ..., "He [the Counsellor] categorically
>stated that the Internet has become a place for those suffering from such
deep
>spiritual illness. I must say that I was absolutely bewildered by his
>sweeping generalizations, particularly as they made a deep impression on
the
>friends gathered at the event." Counselor ... is deservedly admired for his
>open-mindedness, so such statements coming from him were especially
alarming.
>Internet media, as predicted by the Guardian, will clearly increase in
global
>importance. If the Baha'i community adopts a distrustful attitude to email
fora
>and the people who use them—who for the present are largely
>academics—it is the development of the community which will be retarded.
>
>Other well-intentioned statements by Counsellors are received in ways that
>reinforce this atmosphere of distrust. In another case, Counsellor ...,
>speaking in London, described the renewed efforts of the Remeyites. He then
>went on to talk about Talisman's activities. I have spoken directly with
>Counsellor ... on this particular talk and the Counsellor assured me that
it
>had not been his intention to compare the activities on Talisman with that
of
>the
>Covenant Breakers, and I don't doubt his sincerity in this matter. But the
>interpretation that was generally given of his talk further validates my
>concern that when Covenant Breaking, the Internet, and Baha'i Scholars are
all
>mentioned together, the perceived message is that Baha'i scholars and
>academics, on the Internet or not, are at worst Covenant Breakers, or at
least
>suspected of disloyalty to our beloved Faith.
>
>A dramatic and tragic example comes from [a state in the Northeast] where
>Baha'is who were known to participate on Talisman were actively shunned by
>their fellow believers until the LSA intervened. This was too late,
however, to
>keep a new believer, dismayed by the community's behavior, from withdrawing
>from the Cause. While the LSA is to be praised, the very fact that the
>situation existed demonstrates the extent to which paranoia has permeated
the
>Baha'i community. In other cases speakers at Baha'i summer schools have had
>their engagements cancelled because of their association with suspect
scholars.
>
>
>In my consultations with Counsellor ..., we discussed specifics of his
London
>talk in which he stated that Talisman participants were in favor of a
"Baha'i
>Ulama" type class, openly attacked all branches of the Administration,
>questioned the Infallibility of the Universal House of Justice and the
>Guardianship, and objected to Baha'i "review" as a form of censorship.
>
>I pointed out to Dr. ... that far from wishing to claim special authority
>within the Baha'i community similar to that of the 'Ulama in Iran, the
Baha'i
>scholars and academics largely suffer from the opposite fault. As Dr. Peter
>xxxx rightly pointed out in one of his talks, Baha'i scholars have all too
>often isolated themselves from the body of the believers and become
insensitive
>to many of their concerns. Their presence is all too seldom seen at
>conferences and summer schools. Although I did not mention this in my
>conversation with Dr. ..., I might add Baha'i review, as it applies
>specifically to academic publications, jeopardizes academic integrity and
>violates professional ethics. This discredits both their work and the Faith
>itself in the eyes of their colleagues. While I recognize and accept that
the
>House of Justice currently finds it necessary to continue review for the
time
>being, it
>must also be acknowledged that it will continue to represent a moral
dilemma
>for most Baha'i academicians. I would also suggest that it is healthy to
>study/question the spheres of Infallibility conferred upon the Guardian and
the
>Universal House of Justice when such study and questioning is undertaken to
>gain greater understanding, insight, and appreciation. Questioning does not
>always mean opposing or denying, it is most often a quest for deeper
>understanding.
>
>It is quite true that certain individuals, which included some scholars,
>marginalized by what they perceived as a history of Baha'i administrators
>stifling public discourse, began to consider their shared negative
experiences
>as normative and characteristic of Baha'i organizational practices. Through
a
>process of mutual validation and encouragement, they made ill-advised
>statements regarding our Faith's administrative institutions and enmeshed
>themselves inappropriately in administrative affairs. Cyberspace
communication
>ought to have been a natural environment for broadening the horizons of
>intellectual exchange, creating a synergy of mind and soul power amongst
us,
>enriching our community by the services that we could render by our
>scholarship. Instead, all too much energy was dissipated in airing past
>aggravations, and in the case of Talisman this eventually set off a sad
chain
>of
>events. These lamentable actions should not, however, be an excuse to
>stigmatize so much of scholarship and intellectual life itself.
>
>Lest I be perceived as overstating the situation, allow me to share one
recent
>instance where such suspicions have led to immoderate and unfounded
statements
>concerning the loyalty of a British Baha'i [who] put together an excellent
>compilation of research material. In response to the posting of Mr. ...'s
>compilation, an Auxiliary Board Member asserted that this was from a
>"dissident" and "critic" of the Baha'i Faith and the friends should perhaps
>"disregard it altogether."
>
>Mr. ... is most assuredly neither a dissident nor critic. Since the
original
>post had been made to H-Baha'i, a list sponsored by the National Endowment
for
>the Humanities which I moderate, I vigorously, but privately, protested the
>Board Member's statements. Although the Board Member immediately admitted
that
>he had exceeded his jurisdiction in this matter, and Counsellor ... also
>addressed this issue in a positive manner [correspondence to follow] ,
>as yet nothing has been done which would clear the good name of Mr. ... on
the
>lists where such accusations were made.
>
>My hope is that the opening of Centre for the Study of the Holy Text will
>inaugurate a new era in relations between Baha'i academics and the
>Administrative Order. To further that end I would ask the Universal House
of
>Justice to consider the following steps:
>
>
>Strongly encourage the International Teaching Center to quickly implement
its
>mandate to foster a climate of tolerance on diversity of opinion within the
>Baha'i community and actively discourage the shunning, accusing, and
suspicious
>behavior towards equally devoted believers who simply pursue a different
>vocation -- one of academic scholarship related to the Baha'i Faith.
>
>That intensive consultations take place as quickly as possible between
>Counselors and Baha'i academics in non-threatening environment free from
>recrimination in which the means for creating mutual cooperation can be
>developed.
>
>That concerted efforts be made towards harnessing the energy and expertise
of
>Baha'i scholars and academics towards meeting the goals of the Four Year
Plan.
>Again, I implore this Supreme Institution to do whatever is in its power to
>heal this state of affairs, and guide us towards a healthy and productive
>resolution of this disheartening situation; a resolution which will foster
a
>relationship of consultation and cooperation between academicians and the
>Institutions. I fear that if nothing is done the bulk of this generation of
>scholars might well be lost. Please remember the Baha'i academics in your
>prayers at the Sacred Threshold.
>
>Obediently yours,
>
>Susan Stiles Maneck
>
>
>Susan Stiles Maneck
>History, Stetson University
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 1999 8:49 AM
Subject: Re: Correspondence with the House
Laughable that you'd even waste your energy writing the UHJ
as though their answers aren't being broadcast from Bahai
podium....
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
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Smaneck wrote in message <19990212232839.20959.00001237@ng-fi1.aol.com>...
>Third Letter to the House
>
>To: Bahai World Centre
>Subject: Addendum to Sept. 21 letter
>Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997
>Dear Universal House of Justice,
>
>I am writing this letter as an addendum to the letter I sent you dated
>September 21, 1997. There was a question I still had in regards to your
message
>to me dated 20 July 1997 which I did not ask because at the time I could
not
>decide how best to articulate it in a befitting manner. You will recall
that I
>had suggested that many of the difficulties had arisen because many Baha'i
>historians and Middle East specialists had exceeded the proper bounds of
>their calling as scholars by interfering in administrative affairs with
their
>constant criticisms of the institutions. You responded by stating that
there
>were far greater problems involved, referring to "the behavior of a very
small
>group of Baha'is who . . . aggressively sought to promote their
misconceptions
>of the Teachings among their fellow believers." You further refer to
attempts
>"to alter the essential nature of Baha'u'llah's message."
>
>While I recognize that in some cases certain Baha'is have done precisely
that,
>these statements were troubling to me inasmuch as they raised questions in
>regards to the limits of tolerance within the Baha'i Faith. Specifically,
as
>you are no doubt aware, Dr. ... has been vigorously insisting that the
>investigation which was launched by the International Teaching Center
against
>himself and others was motivated by a desire to impose a rigid doctrinal
>conformity on Baha'i scholars which would be inconsistent with our ability
to
>function as academics. I had argued, to the contrary, that the
investigation
>was largely launched in reaction to what was seen as an attack on the
>Institutions themselves. For this reason your letter of 20 July created
much
>confusion for me because it seemed to vindicate Dr. ...'s perception of
these
>events.
>
>My question is, to what extent does the House see these problems as issues
of
>doctrinal heresy which must therefore be suppressed and to what extent are
the
>Institutions empowered to do this? I am aware, for instance, of the verse
in
>the Will and Testament which reads: "To none is given the right to put
forth
>his own opinion or express his particular conviction. All must seek
guidance
>and turn unto the Centre of the Cause and the House of Justice." I
>note, however that the term for opinion here is rai which is one of the
>principles (usul) of Islamic jurisprudence. Given the juridical language of
>this entire section of the Will and Testament I would assume that
`Abdul-Baha
>was speaking here largely of opinions in regard to matters of Baha'i law
and
>practice rather than doctrine.
>
>If the Universal House of Justice does regard the imposition of orthodoxy
on
>the Baha'i community as within the purview of the authority of the
Institutions
>I wonder if you could explain to me how this fits in with the tolerance
which
>`Abdul-Baha calls for elsewhere within the Writings. I am thinking for
>instance of the passage in Kitab-I Bada'i al-Athar 1:294 where `Abdul-Baha
>insists that there must be no interference in beliefs or conscience. I
>also note that in another Tablet `Abdul-Baha states that so long as
courtesy
>is maintained that in the Faith no one can rule over a persons conscience.
He
>goes on to say that such freedom does not extend to matters of divine law.
>(Ma'idih-yi Asmani 5:17-18.) I also have in mind Baha'u'llah's Tablet to
>Bourjerdi where even over the vital issue of the station of the
Manifestation,
>Baha'u'llah refuses to allow the imposition of rigid dogma.
>
>Thank you for your careful consideration of the issues I raise and for your
>continued prayers at the Sacred Shrines.
>
>Obediently yours,
>Susan Maneck
>
>
>Susan Stiles Maneck
>History, Stetson University
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 1999 8:53 AM
Subject: Re: Correspondence with the House
McKenny Michael wrote in message <7a6gap$od4@freenet-news.carleton.ca>...
>
>Greetings, Susan, from Ottawa.
> Many thanks for posting this little gem.
Michael,
Please repost it if you kept a copy of it. My server is
coming back with the message that it has been removed
from the server.... After only TWO days?
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
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----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 1999 9:01 AM
Subject: Re: Correspondence with the House
Smaneck wrote in message <19990214120237.20954.00002209@ng-fi1.aol.com>...
>Dear Michael,
>
>When the House of Justice states:
>
>>Truth in such fields cannot be found
>>> if the evidence of Revelation is systematically excluded and if
discourse
>>> is limited by a basically deterministic view of the world.
>
>They are not referring to question as to whether the Greeks got their
knowledge
>from Hebrew Prophets, nor are they suggesting that Revelation has the final
>word in matters of science or history. They are referring to the fact that
>academics are required to ignore the question as to whether or not
Revelation
>has actually occurred within history or God's active participation in it.
This
>is a very genuine problem, one which I frankly do not know the answer to,
>because I don't know anyway of folding revelation and history together
without
>doing violence to both. It does seem that the House of Justice's hope is
that
>Baha'i scholars will find ways to do that.
Other Bahai "scholars" like Ms. Maneck shall surely find a way....
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
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----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 1999 9:08 AM
Subject: Re: Correspondence with the House
jrcole@umich.edu wrote in message <7a9qfc$tud$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
So why exactly should this motley collection of individuals in Haifa
>get to tell Amanat how to write history?
They're right, and he's wrong....
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
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----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 1999 9:21 AM
Subject: Re: Correspondence with the House
jrcole@umich.edu wrote in message <7a4mr3$sll$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>In article <19990213113424.29362.00001707@ng-ch1.aol.com>,
>
>What kind of totalitarian, Orwellian, Stalinist claptrack is being put out
>from Haifa? Do they think that anyone will swallow this swill? First,
they
>redefine 'freedom of conscience' in the Baha'i faith as the freedom to be
>*their* kind of Baha'i and to think exactly as they do, or to renounce
>Baha'u'llah and change one's faith. This is freedom of conscience? Isn't
>this the freedom of conscience that the Soviet Union offered Aleksandr
>Solzhenitsyn? He could express himself exactly as Brezhnev desired, or he
>could live in Vermont! That is the "freedom of conscience" on offer from
>Haifa. As if *allowing* people to leave the religion is some big favor!
>What are they going to do to stop them, kidnap them?
They'll sic all their little fanatic worshippers on you the way
they have done to me with the BCCA, srb, and other contemptible
hacks for the last two years, some of whom are now attempting
to destroy, quite literally, my email account....
>
>This is nothing but cult-speak. It is the demand for complete and total
>conformity to the views of the nine people who claw their way onto the UHJ
>(often by stabbing other potential candidates in the back and mistreating
>people behind the scenes). Well, of course, such a demand is impractical.
>It couldn't be enforced or there would only be 9 Baha'is. So it is
>selectively enforced. It is enforced against 'the prominent.' It is
enforced
>against persons who can make a good argument for liberalism in Baha'i
>scriptural terms. The silencing is done quietly, behind the scenes, with
>angry and threatening letters and phone calls.
And emails that I have posted to my website and which all
the lackies denounce as oh so unethical and violating the
privacy etc....
>
>And what if someone refuses to be run off by the UHJ (basically, for them
>'freedom of conscience' is the freedom to obey or be run off)? Why, then
>they are threatened with being shunned. And of course this threat of
>shunning is generalized to all humankind. Yes, a person is free to allow
her
>conscience to be coerced and to be forced out of the Baha'i faith, but even
>then shunning is an option that is hung over her head, unless she quietly
>fades away and makes no more fuss. What a manipulative, coercive,
monstrous
>way of thinking this is, that represents itself as 'freedom of
conscience'!!
That's the way the UHJ runs itself today and all its sycophants....
It's had plenty of opportunity to prove otherwise during the last
TWO years of debate for talk.religion.bahai....
>
>And then the 'institutions' *do* busy themselves with the views of
individual
>believers, you see, and the "actions" that are "inimical" to the Baha'i
faith
>are no "actions" at all, but *e-mail* messages (which is to say, speech,
not
>actions) that lay out a view of the faith that actually has some
resemblance
>to what Baha'u'llah himself thought, rather than the cult-like religion of
>shunning and scriptural literalism and authoritarian governance that these
>hardliners have constructed. When non-criminal speech is criminalized, you
>get 1984 (maybe these people are aiming at 2084?)
It exists today within the narrow, spiritually stiflingly little
"world" of Bahai fundamentalism all across America....
>
>This kind of thing doesn't *border* on 'restrictions on freedom of speech*;
it
>*is* restrictions on freedom of speech. Horrible restrictions.
Totalitarian
>restrictions. And to suggest that for someone to point out that
`Abdul-Baha
>was historically inaccurate in suggesting that Socrates met Jewish prophets
in
>Palestine, or that the virgin birth of Jesus is a myth (in the good sense)
is
>anything like "sedition" in civil law (and these were the sorts of things
that
>led to some the the charges in 1996) is complete nonsense.
In a "world" of one-eyed men, Nonsense is Truth....
>
>Apparently these people in Haifa have worked themselves up into a state
where
>they think they are God Almighty or something and whatever they say goes
and
>can't be analyzed or controverted, or else no one in his right mind would
be
>so stupid as openly to reveal the workings of a Stalinist mindset this way.
>The UHJ's of the 1970s and 1980s were *far* more cautious. But what I
think
>they will find is that they haven't (obviously) been given any particular
>brief to engage in Authoritative Interpretation of scripture, or to impose
>their weird and proto-fascist ideology on the Baha'is. They were set up to
>make laws necessary to keeping the Baha'i faith in the vanguard of
>progressive movements in the world, repealing old ones that had become
>outdated and instituting new ones. Instead, they are wasting the Baha'is'
>money by spending their time putting out letters like the one to Maneck
that
>has no standing whatsoever in Baha'i law since it departs from their sphere
>of authority, and which is riddled with illogic, bad faith and Kafkaesque
>visions of a totalitarian society.
Well, in truth, the illiterate sycophants, in the basement or
wherever, in Haifa who crank out such schlock, work for free....
Though it does cost Bahais money to feed and house them,
I suppose....
>
>I have lived under the Syrian government, and I have lived in societies
with
>freedom of conscience and speech. The UHJ's letter sounds to me like what
I
>saw when I lived under the Syrians (who also, by the way, subjected my
>writing to prepublication censorship). I do know freedom of conscience when
>I see it. This isn't it, folks, and it is about as far away from
>`Abdul-Baha's vision of society as you could get. It is very sad. More
>people should be mad about it.
That's the way I see too. The emperor has no clothes. Say so.
His nakedness is a disgrace....
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
>
>>
>Cole said:
>> >Note that the house of so-called justice never bothered actually to
reply to
>> >the specific quotations raised below, from `Abdul-Baha, which forbid
houses
>> >of justice from interfering in individual freedom of conscience and
>> >expression and restrict them to punishing *actions*, as well as
forbidding
>> >them to launch persecutions of people on merely doctrinal bases (which
is
>> >what `Abdul-Baha hoped would distinguish the Baha'i faith from early
>> >Christianity; alas, his hopes have been dashed).
>
>
>> As we have already seen, Dr. Cole's understanding of freedom of speech
>included
>> the kind of *ra'i* explicitly forbidden in the Will and Testament as well
as
>> acts of outright slander against the Institutions.
>> Susan Stiles Maneck
>> History, Stetson University
>>
>
>Juan Cole
>History, U of Michigan
>https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai.htm
>
>-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
>https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 1999 7:57 AM
Subject: Instructions - ask your ISP for talk.religion.bahai
See the alt/talk.religion.bahai FAQ-history for
detailed instructions on how to request your ISP add
talk.religion.bahai.
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 1999 8:01 AM
Subject: REPOST - The Maneck Technique
Juan Cole, February 13, 1999:
"It is a very, very, very weird religion. And if anyone is reading
Susan Maneck's absolutely bone-chilling screeds on the
desirability of Heresy Trials and carefulness in Shunning,
they are seeing what it is like at the core of the religion."
"I really am sorry for them and her, since they seem sort of filled with
hate and quite paranoid, yet say they are preaching love, unity and
tolerance. Susan will say, 'may your abdomen be split by lightning
and your guts fall out you filthy heretic whom I wish I could just have
shunned and buried', and then she'll sign herself "warmest" and
slander a university by adding it to her sig line. As if what she is
about has anything at all to do with *universities*!"
FG, February 15, 1999:
"Ms. Maneck's approach appears to me to be always to
shunt the discussion off or back to who said what where when
why how and so on.... The farther back in time the better, since
the person's memory, being human, is bound to be unable to
keep up or to have stocked the evidence needed on his or her
hard drive or find it on dejanews.com. And it then allows her
to claim pretty much anything she wants to while seeming to
have discredited her opponent. Further, she relies on the
tactics of demagoguery knowing they usually prevail and will be
supported by other fundamentalist Bahais. By shrieking
"slander" and referring to others' opinions as "garbage," she is
able to create an emotional atmosphere that essentially negates
whatever the topic or content might be and that allows her to
appear to win what is often a narrowly legalistic point or
interpretation."
"All of this is done, of course, in conjunction with her employing
the more common Bahai techniques of intimidation and
psychological demonization and terrorism."
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/Maneck1.htm
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/technique.htm
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
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----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 1999 8:12 AM
Subject: Re: (long) Service of Women paper
Also available at
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/SWomen.htm
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 18, 1999 8:25 AM
Subject: talk.religion.bahai - 1700+ postings in 1 month
Since January 18, 1999, there have been over
1,700 postings to talk.religion.bahai....
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
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----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 18, 1999 8:58 AM
Subject: fw Mr Mahdi The evil of dissimulation
FYI
Subject: The evil of dissimulation
Date: 2/13/1999 1:41 PM Eastern Standard Time
From: Mr Mahdi
Message-id: <19990213134140.04249.00001072@ng43.aol.com>
Bismillah al-Rehman al-Raheem
In the name of Allah, One. His Peace, Love and Blessings may always shower
on Holy Prophet Muhammad, after whom there is no prophet.
Legitimacy of Dissimulation in The Bahai Faith????
by
Imran
Bahais as is their wont make a lot of unsubstantiated claims, like the Bahai
Faith is in perfect harmony with other Divine faiths like Islam, Judaism,
Christianity, etc., ....we have come to unite mankind on one platform
without any bias and prejudice, ...we wish to establish unity, peace and
equality among the people. These and such other statements though apparently
very noble are masked with deception. To make the Bahais as well
as non-Bahais aware of this deception was felt necessary. This article was
written with this very objective in mind. Mentioned below are a series of
incidents that will distinctly underline my claims. Hopefully at the end,
this article will leave the reader more enlightened.
Bahais give credence to disguising their Faith from the common gullible
populace, disclosing it, only once they convert to Bahaism. This practice is
described as Dissimulation. As per principles of Taqaiya, Bahais conceal
their Faith (or are at least permitted to conceal their Faith), if it serves
their interests. (This practice was actually followed in Indonesia quite
successfully. But when they had got too widespread and the Government got
wise
they were driven out.)
Mirza Haider Ali Isfahani, one of Bahaisms most renowned missionaries, has
written a book Behjatus Sudoor (in Persian) in 1914 A.H. His treatise is
considered noteworthy among the Bahais. This book was written by him under
explicit instructions from Abbas Affandi.. Mirza Haider Ali Isfahani is
buried in Akka (the Bahai Mecca) near Bahaullahs tomb.
In his book (Bombay edition) he states that ...when Bahaullah sent me to
Istanbul on Abdul Bahaas recommendation for preaching Bahaism there he
advised me ...you should meet the masses with tact and your meeting with me
should be disclosed in a very nonchalant manner, so they are not alarmed.
And at all times bear in mind never to disclose your wealth, your
destination and your religion, and implement this till the last possibility
Further in his book Mirza Haider Ali Isfahani has mentioned many meetings
with the populace where he has strictly abided by Bahaullahs edict i.e.
concealing the faith. I have made an attempt below wherein such incidents
are mentioned that will make evident to my readers the objective behind this
dissumilation
Incident 1
Mirza Haider Ali Isfahani narrates When I was condemned in Egypt and the
people said about me az deene Islam kharij shudeh ast wa deene aaeene
jadeedee bidat namudeh ast ... this man has forsaken the religion of Islam
and accepted a new religion, I wrote a letter to the police officer saying
with selfishness and the malice which they bore towards us have blamed us of
following a new religion and a new book. But after a thorough scrutiny of
facts, the
falsehood of these accusations will be as evident for the king as the midday
sun (Pg. 107) But he himself later mentions on pg. 184 ...it was made
apparent with clear proofs (to one person) about the culmination of Islam
and the advent of a new religion. The deceit in the two statements mentioned
above is also as evident as the midday sun , wherein, on one hand Mirza
Haider Ali Isfahani vociferously denies his (new) faith and on the other he
makes
apparent to others this very (new) faith.
Incident 2
Mirza Haider Ali Isfahani narrates on pg. 86-88 of the same book that ...
after I had been appointed as a missionary by Bahaullah for preaching the
religion of Bahaism and I arrived in Egypt, the Iranians protested that you
have abandoned your belief on the Finality of Prophethood (Khatame Nabuwwat)
and forsaken Islam and Muslims and you preach that Muhammad (PBUH) is not
the last Prophet. Then I told them, baraaye tabligh naya aamdeheem wa khud
ra
qaabile eenkeh nisbat momineen een amr badheem namee daaneem ta cheh rasd
bemuballageen ....I have not come to preach Bahaism, let alone being a
Bahai, I do not consider myself equal to even a simple Bahai
Again, the doublespeak in Mirza Haider Ali Isfahanis words is unmistakable.
He denies his Bahai inclination when he himself was appointed by Bahaullah
on the counsel of Abbas Affandi as a missionary. (Pg. 83) Then why this
contradiction ??? This hypocrisy is in stark contrast with the teachings of
Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) who said Lie is the key to all evil. No where does
one find a single instance of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) or Prophet Jesus
(PBUH)
advising their disciples to lie about their faith to the gullible so as to
spread the message of Islam or Christianity. In fact Prophet Muhammad (PBUH)
used to say "Refrain from lying even if it to your benefit, and always speak
the truth even if it to your detriment". But we find Bahaullah and his
successor advocating the philosophy of 'dissimulation' that totally
contradicts the philosophy of the divine 'abrogated' religions. An
institution based
on lies and deceit can hardly be expected to survive for long, even though
it may seem beneficial in the short term. This is something the Bahais must
realise. Simply, increasing ones numbers is a very short sighted approach.
The Bahais must focus more on resolving the glaring discrepancies inherent
in their faith that I have mentioned in my earlier articles. They should not
be too concerned about numbers. People will come to the Faith, provided the
truth is with them.
Incident 3
Mirza Haider Ali Isfahani, was once called to meet the Shah of Iran,
Shujaaudaulah. The latter had got wind of Bahai activism . Mirza Haider Ali
Isfahani as was his wont, did not disclose his identity. However, unable to
conceal his enthusiasm, in the course of his meeting, he extolled the
virtues of Akka. Shujaaudaulah, a very perceptive individual, remarked that
..unless a person is a Bahai, he will not speak such. You are a Bahai,
however you are
loathe to disclose it. But Mirza Haider Ali Isfahani keeping Bahaullahs
admonition in mind tried to deceive the Shah by saying agar faanee momin wa
mokin ast baayad hazratash dar jameea jahaat etaaat konam If I am a Bahai
and have (truely) accepted the Faith, then I must observe all the commands
of Hazrat Bahaullah (Behjatoos Sudoor Pg. 196) However by concealing his
true identity (from the Shah) he has indeed observed one of the basic tenets
of
dissumulation laid down by Bahaullah.
Mirza Haider Ali Isfahanis words: We have shattered the Muslims , coupled
with the Bahai deceit and dissimulation with the Muslims (and others) bear
ample testimony to his and Bahaullahs intentions. Bahai missionaries then as
well today, propagate with this objective. These words of Mirza Haider Ali
Isfahani should serve as a warning for people across all faiths especially
the Muslims. Muslim Ulamas (scholars) should take the initiative in this
matter. They should study more about the Bahai faith and launch an awareness
campaign amongst the common gullible Muslims. Protecting the faith (Imaan)
of common Muslims in this era from attacks of Bahai missionaries (like Mirza
Haider Ali Isfahani) is crucial.
Incident 4
Mirza Haider Ali Isfahani recounts on pg. 206-7 of the same book ...I
alongwith two other Bahais, Ghulam Hussain and Muhammad Sadiq had gathered
at a place in Iran. In the morning, the Muslims had besieged the place. I
handed over all the important documents regarding Bahaism to my companions
and surrendered myself to the Muslims. They took me to a house outside the
city and warned me that if I do not give them all the important documents to
them
they would cut me into pieces. Mirza Haider Ali Isfahani deceived them by
saying that ..at midnight yesterday, a man representing Shah Shujaauduallah
had come, and I surrendered everything to him. Consequently I was spared and
my two companions meanwhile, also made good their escape with the documents.
Incident 5
The Bahais to preach their Faith among the Muslims, even go to the extent of
praying Namaaz with Muslims. This is in stark violation of the Bahai tenet
which strictly forbids a Bahai from praying like the Muslims. Let alone
Namaaz they are not even permitted even to perform their ablutions (Wuzu)
like the Muslims. This is quite evident, as Bahaullah claims to have
abrogated Islam. However, Mirza Haider Ali Isfahani states in Behjatus
Sudoor (Pg. 97)
faanee wa Mirza Hussain Shirazi wa Darvesh Hussain sab meeaad bakhaaneh
concal fateem wa nazde u wa aakhareen ham dar zaahir aadaabe Islam laahifz
me namud zilm wa lu yatee bekitaabe jadeed wa shorue jadeed ra ham bedaleel
aafakeeh wa anfaseeh saabit me kard One night I, Mirza Hussain Shirazi and
Darvesh Hussain met at the residence of the council as planned. I used to
prove the veracity of the new Book (Aqdas) and the new religion (Bahaism)
with
hidden as well as apparent proofs as the religion of Islam was abrogated.
However we prayed Namaaz at the residence of the council in a manner similar
to the other Muslims. And we always did this in front of others
(non-Muslims) as well
Mirza Haider Ali Isfahani and his fellow missionaries went to the extent of
contravening the Bahai principle just to convert a few Muslims. They
performed an unlawful act (as per their Faith) only to get close to the
Muslims. Why did they resort to such deceitful ways to propagate ? Or did
they believe that so long as the ends justify the means, then everything is
permissible ? This mode of propagation of Bahaism is indeed strange. Never
did Prophet
Muhammad (PBUH) advice the missionaries to pretend to pray along with the
Jews (of his time), although the Jews were Islams sworn enemies. He always
used words of kindness and compassion with the people and attracted them
towards Islam with his excellent morals. Quran says We have created the
Prophet as an excellent examplar for you To the extent that even the
bloodthirsty infidels used to call Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) him Sadiq
(Truthful) and Amin
(Trustworthy). Now compare this, with Bahaullah, his character, his morals
and the means he has employed to propagate Bahaism. Can anyone ever call him
Sadiq (Truthful) and Amin (Trustworthy)?
And to think Bahaism has come to abrogate Islam! Why are the Bahais so
insidious in their approach ? If Bahaism is such a beautiful religion then
why use such means ? Why dont they attract the people with this so called
beauty ? What is the need to resort to such guile ? Never in the history of
the Divine religions (Islam, Judaism, Christianity) was such a mode of
propagation permitted. On the contrary Prophet Muhammad (PBUH), and Prophet
Jesus
(PBUH) and Prophet Moses (PBUH), etc. always adopted sincerity in their
approach and never cared to simply enhance the strength of their followers.
In fact certain prophets had only a handful of followers, inspite of
preaching for hundreds of years. Adam (PBUH) had preached for 930 years and
managed to gather a negligible number of followers. As it is widely known
even Prophet Noah (PBUH) at the time of the deluge had only eighty
companions on his
ark. Noah (PBUH) had preached for 950 years. Even Prophet Abraham (PBUH)
after years of preaching could muster, but a few disciples. Even Prophet
Jesus (PBUH) after all his exhortations and appeals had only twelve close
disciples. Yet he never adopted deception to counter the Pharisees, who were
thirsty for his blood. As a matter of fact a close study of past prophets
will tell us that most, if not all, had only a paltry number of followers.
However
none of the Prophets took recourse to such populist measures even in the
face of severe persecution.
Incident 6
Besides praying Namaaz along with the Muslims, the Bahai missionaries also
employed other means such as becoming disciples/followers of renowned Muslim
sages.
Mirza Haider Ali Isfahani mentions on pg. 27 of the same book az Yazd be
Kaashshaan wa Tehran raft wa dar Tehran bejahat satr wa hifz wa ameed wa
iqbaale izhaar iradat bejanaab ustad Ghulam Rezaae Shishe gar mar shud
mashur muslim namud During my journey to Iran, I traveled from Yazd to
Kaashaan and from there to Tehran. In Tehran, I visited a prominent Muslim
sage/soothsayer, Ghulam Reza Shishah, and entered his fold. By doing this I
hoped on one
hand, to conceal my identity and on the other, to convert that
sage/soothsayer. Mirza Haider Ali Isfahani was indeed a very intelligent
missionary. He realised that if he was successful in converting a prominent
Muslim sage, it would only be matter of time before all the other
followers/disciples followed suit. Another example of Bahai guile. This is
where the Muslim Ulamas (scholars) have to be careful. Because if even one
Aalim (scholar) falls prey
to such Bahai cunning, their students/companions are most likely to emulate
them. More incidents of a similar nature can be found on pg. 50
Incident 7
Mulla Ali Akbar was among students of Mulla Muhammad Sadiq. He was the
leader (Imam-e-Jamaat) of the mosque in Shiraz. And from the pulpit he used
to announce the claim of Mahdi of Mirza Ali Muhammad Shirazi ( Hazrat Aala).
This was done with utmost discretion. Indeed what can be of greater danger
to the Muslims that Bahaai propoganda is carried from their places of
worship. The consummation of this dissumulation is very aptly described by
Abbas
Affandi in his book Al Kaukabe Durriyah (pg. 452) peyusteh een taaefeh dar
har dastgaahraah dashtand wa az kaar har keesi agaah budeh chandaan keh az
harm saraae sultaanee har raaz nahaaee betawassit bahaaiyyaan keh dar pardeh
een mastur daair medaad amur bedabd baraae ishaan makshuf meegasht
the result was that the Bahaais had spread their tentacles everywhere. And
they were aware of everyones activities. To the extent that the discreet
affairs of the women in the kings harem were known to them through the
Bahaais who were employed with in the palaces This then was the extent of
espionage among the Bahais at that time. And it is shocking to say the
least. And what is even more shocking is that Abdul Bahaa himself is the one
admitting it.
And he does seem to confess it without any regret or remorse. As if he was
proud of the Bahaai network functioning at that time.
Dissimulation in the Sayings of Abbas Affandi (Abdul Bahaa)
1) In Bahaism preaching discreetly has been emphasised to the extent that
Abdul Bahaa has mentioned in his book Makaatab vol. 3, pg. 327 Hiding your
faith has been made obligatory upon you. Also the author of Nuktatul Qaaf,
Mirza Jaani writes on pg. 211 of the same book The father was concealing his
faith from the son and the son from his father and the people of his house.
2)Abbas Affandi writes in a letter to Shaykh Farjullah Zaki who was sent to
Egypt for preaching Bahaullah has made haraam (forbidden) the preaching of
Islam in Egypt. It is required that Bahai friends keep low for a while. And
even if someone questions about the Faith, they should pretend to be unaware
of it. This letter was written on October 22, 1921
3)This decree on preaching in a concealed manner has been expressed further
in no uncertain terms by Abdul Bahaa in his Makaatab vol. 3 pg. 496 to
Shaikh Mohiddeen Kardi, masaaile hakeemeh ra asaas tazkereh karaar dheed na
aqaaed ra ..while trying to incline the thoughts (towards Bahaism), priority
must be given to skills, rather than fundamentals (of the Faith).
What can be more unsettling than a decree like this one issued by none other
than the successor of Bahaullah??? Again this fashion of propagation is
alien to the divine faiths, where all the past prophets had emphasised
strictly on fundamentals of the religion. At no point of time did the
prophets ever make any concessions on the principles. They were prepared to
sacrifice their lives but unprepared to comprise on the foundation of
religion. Again we
see that the Bahai philosophy is the exact antithesis of the Sunnah of the
earlier prophets.
This, then, was the mode employed by the Bahais to spread the Faith. And it
is very much in vogue till date in certain countries, like Indonesia. And
that is very disturbing. It is a cause for concern for all Muslims. As it is
said an hidden enemy is more dangerous than a thousand open enemies. The
objective of this article was to make evident this hidden enemy, as it is
also said forewarned is forearmed.
Mahdi
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 18, 1999 9:01 AM
Subject: fw CCrawfeild MORE CENSORED POST!
FYI
Subject: MORE CENSORED POST!
Date: 2/14/1999 10:32 AM Eastern Standard Time
From: CCrawfeild
Message-id: <19990214103226.20959.00001937@ng-fi1.aol.com>
I am too tied to go into detail. But I just want people to know that someone
has deleted 2 of my post. IMHO I find it Ironic that spammers can spread
porno-emails all over the place, but honest opinions are deleted.
The Baha'i should start living by example, again, IMHO.
If anyone has the power to bring my post back, please do.
Love,
Christine.
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 18, 1999 5:53 PM
Subject: Re: American Conversions: Islam vs. Baha'i
jrcole@umich.edu wrote in message <7aghck$nlm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>
>But beyond my own dilemma, I felt and feel an obligation toward all the
other
>Baha'i intellectuals, to fight this insidious and cult-like behind the
scenes
>use of threats of shunning to bully and silence them. I was a very sincere
>Baha'i, and could not, however, imagine waging such a fight while still a
>member. Although it has been at an enormous and unfortunate cost, both to
me
>and to the faith, I feel that I have succeeded in that fight. An academic
>listserv of the sort that was attacked does exist and is flourishing; and
for
>general discussions TRB now exists; and none of the people who were
>threatened has actually been sanctioned but one. Were those threats ever
to
>be acted upon, this repression would get spread all over the Net and I'd
>write it up for the academic journals, and I think the major press has now
>been educated to the point where it might even make those newspapers. I
>could be wrong, but I think this is not a scenario the Baha'i authorities
>would enjoy seeing played out, and so they have backed off the purges and
>show trials.
It too is the sense of duty and obligation to others that keeps
me fighting this battle.... That and a sense of betrayal....
And evil....
>
>I think the Baha'i authorities in the old Print era were very good at
making
>people go away; they basically had succeeded in that with MacEoin. And if
>you can make someone you dislike go away without too great a cost, any
>administrator would be tempted to do so. You just misuse the trust an
>adherent reposes in you to stab him in the back and shatter his faith, and
>then *poof*--he's gone. But in the new world of cyberspace, those so
stabbed
>don't necessarily disappear after all, and in fact stick around to yell
>bloody murder. And doing so is the only way I know of to help ensure that
15
>years from now some other young Baha'i intellectual isn't pushed off a
cliff
>by the narrow-minded--or if it is done, that everyone understands there
will
>be hell to pay.
They're still working on AOL to suppress and drive
people out. I believe this is because AOL has more than
14 MILLION members who, if they ever look at the Religion
Main Menu, will see something called the Bahai Faith right
there along with the mainline faiths....
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Friday, February 19, 1999 8:37 AM
Subject: Re: Interesting Conversations...
Smaneck wrote in message <19990219003435.26429.00003539@ng-cg1.aol.com>...
>Dr. Cole writes:
>
>>If you stick around, you'll see a fair amount of
>>character assassination, slander, lies and backbiting aimed at anyone who
>>dares critique the status quo.
>
>And you'll see even more from those who critique the status quo.
Ha, ha, ha, ha....
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/Maneck1.htm
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Friday, February 19, 1999 8:56 AM
Subject: Re: Baha'u'llah as Democrat
Juan,
You select some very appropriate texts to demonstrate
your case. I know you could have just as easily chosen
another twenty or thirty or more passages as well. It is
strange indeed to see the thinking of a man distorted
into exactly the opposite of his published writings....
For the fundamentalists, their esoteric interpretations
or corruptions rest on or are justified by hikmat, are they not?
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
jrcole@umich.edu wrote in message <7aivvv$sue$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>
>
>
>It has been alleged that the Baha'i faith is not democratic in its
>administration. That may be, but it has nothing to do with the teachings of
>its holy figures.
>
>Baha'u'llah was an unabashed democrat. In a Middle East governed by
Absolute
>monarchs, he dared decry despotism and to call forthrightly for
parliamentary
>democracy, though he preferred to retain the monarchs as constitutional
>figureheads.
>
>In 1868 or 1869 he wrote to Queen Victoria:
>
>We have also heard that thou hast entrusted the reins of counsel into the
>hands of . . . the people. Thou, indeed, hast done well, for thereby the
>foundations of the edifice of thine affairs will be strengthened, and the
>hearts of all that are beneath thy shadow, whether high or low, will be
>tranquillized. It behoveth them, however, to be trustworthy among His
>servants, and to regard themselves as the representatives of all that dwell
>on earth. This is what counselleth them, in this Tablet, He Who is the
Ruler,
>the All-Wise... Blessed is he that entereth the assembly for the sake of
God,
>and judgeth between men with pure justice. He, indeed, is of the
blissful....
>
>[note that the official translation says 'into the hands of the
>representatives of the people;' but in the original Arabic, it just says
>'into the hands of the people']
>
>In his 1873 Most Holy Book, Baha'u'llah openly advocated popular
sovereignty
>in Iran:
>
>"Rejoice with great joy, for God hath made thee [Tihrán] "the Dayspring of
>His light", inasmuch as within thee was born the Manifestation of His
Glory.
>Be thou glad for this name that hath been conferred upon thee--a name
through
>which the Day-Star of grace hath shed its splendour, through which both
earth
>and heaven have been illumined. 93 Erelong will the state of affairs within
>thee be changed, and the reins of power fall into the hands of the people."
>
>This passage, in which Baha'u'llah is both predicting and approving, speaks
>of power being *in the hands of the people*. That was Baha'u'llah's ideal.
In
>his view power should always be in the hands of the people. He predicted
the
>end of absolute monarchy, precisely on the grounds that universal Reason
had
>now appeared amongst the people, and they could rule themselves.
>
>In 1891, at the height of the Tobacco Revolt in Iran, Baha'u'llah in the
>Tablet of the World upbraided Nasir al-Din Shah for his tyranny in Iran and
>that of his governors, and tells him that only by calling a parliament and
>instituting democracy can Iran's problems be solved:
>
>"Having pondered on that which We have enunciated, every man of equity and
>discernment will readily perceive, with his inner and outer eyes, the
>splendours of the day-star of justice which radiate therefrom. The system
of
>government which the British people have adopted in London appeareth to be
>good, for it is adorned with the light of both kingship and of the
>consultation of the people."
>
>Note that, as Professor Bernard Lewis has demonstrated, in 19th century
Middle
>Eastern reformist literature 'consultation' is a way of translating
>'parliamentary governance.'
>
>So, the evidence is abundant that as his favored form of government,
>*Baha'u'llah* advocated parliamentary democracy, and since he approved so
>much of the British form of government, about the details of which he was
>intimately informed from the press and Persian travel accounts, it appears
>that he favored a multi-party parliamentary system.
>
>How his followers went to preferring a one-party, hierarchical model that
>more resembles 'the government of the people in Beijing' would be a very
>interesting story to know. But there isn't any doubt about where
Baha'u'llah
>stood. He was a democrat no less than Washington or Madison, and Sultan
>Abdulaziz and Nasir al-Din Shah played King George III.
>
>cheers Juan
>
>Juan Cole History, U of Michigan
>https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai.htm
>
>
>
>Juan Cole
>History, U of Michigan
>https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai.htm
>
>-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
>https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Friday, February 19, 1999 9:09 AM
To: David Bowie
Subject: Re: Instructions - ask your ISP for talk.religion.bahai
See the alt/talk.religion.bahai FAQ-history for
detailed instructions on how to request your ISP add
talk.religion.bahai.
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
-----Original Message-----
From: David Bowie <carol_bowie@mindlink.bc.ca>
Newsgroups: alt.religion.bahai
Date: Saturday, February 06, 1999 1:08 PM
Subject: Re: Instructions - ask your ISP for talk.religion.bahai
>I checked out your site but was unable to find what I wanted. I had to
wade
>through too much ohter stuff.
>
>I really would apprieciate somone posting instruction to get my ISDP to add
>TRB.
>
>Thanks, David Bowie
>
>FG wrote in message <79hkgp$9lb@news3.newsguy.com>...
>>See the alt/talk.religion.bahai FAQ-history for
>>detailed instructions on how to request your ISP add
>>talk.religion.bahai.
>>
>>FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
>>https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
>>alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
----------
From: lewismm@uregina.ca[SMTP:lewismm@uregina.ca]
Sent: Friday, February 19, 1999 9:22 PM
To: FG@hotmail.com
Subject: Crisis of Faith letter
Hello Mr. Glaysher,
I just read with interest the letter by Steve Scholl (sp?) to the
Universal House of Justice re: Crisis of Faith on your website. However,
I couldn't find any response on the page. Was there a response on the
part of the House, and if so, do you have it elsewhere on your site? I
would like to see how they responded. Thanks.
Peace,
Mary
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, February 20, 1999 9:57 AM
To: lewismm@uregina.ca
Subject: Re: Crisis of Faith letter
I don't believe the UHJ every responded to it.
I might be wrong though. You might ask on
talk.religion.bahai; others would know more about
it than I do.
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
-----Original Message-----
From: lewismm@uregina.ca <lewismm@uregina.ca>
To: FG@hotmail.com <FG@hotmail.com>
Date: Friday, February 19, 1999 8:22 PM
Subject: Crisis of Faith letter
>Hello Mr. Glaysher,
>
>I just read with interest the letter by Steve Scholl (sp?) to the
>Universal House of Justice re: Crisis of Faith on your website. However,
>I couldn't find any response on the page. Was there a response on the
>part of the House, and if so, do you have it elsewhere on your site? I
>would like to see how they responded. Thanks.
>
>Peace,
>Mary
>
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, February 20, 1999 10:07 AM
Subject: Re: AOL censorship via TOS allegations
Kathy Pascoe wrote in message <37390389.934284069@news.newsguy.com>...
>
>Make that three votes for AOL's Terms of Service being off-topic outside
>of AOL.
I believe the abuse of free speech on AOL is a legitimate topic
of discussion for talk.religion.bahai and shall continue to post
here anything I wish regarding it.
Some might want to notice that the same desire to prevent
diverse opinions from being heard is the reason Bahais are
attempting to drive myself and other people off of AOL
through their false allegations of TOS violations. I have
appealed this to the proper people at AOL and believe all
people on Usenet and the Internet have the right to hear
about the consistent opposition of Bahais to free speech
and conscience....
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, February 21, 1999 9:35 AM
To: FG
Subject: Fw: (no subject)
FYI
I had uploaded 15+ megabytes from my talk.religionb.ahai
archive on Saturday....
-----Original Message-----
From: FG@aol.com <FG@aol.com>
To: TOSBoards1@aol.com <TOSBoards1@aol.com>
Cc: FG@hotmail.com <FG@hotmail.com>
Date: Sunday, February 21, 1999 12:21 AM
Subject: (no subject)
>The Bahai Forum Leader Mark Foster is exploiting the
>TOS rules as a form of censorship and in particular in
>using them to have my account permanently suspended.
>On Saturday I uploaded a number of files to the Bahai
>Libraries which he has now stated he has found ways
>of suppressing and alleging TOSs against. Please
>read his messages below as further evidence of his
>pattern to citing people with TOSs in order to control
>the information available to people on AOL.
>
>Incidentally, the messages he falsely accuses me of
>"spamming" were in separate folders, Bahai Forums/
>message boards/For Non-Bahais and Bahai Forums/
>Message Boards/Announcements. The messages are
>different in content and definitely not spam. By making
>such bogus charges Mark Foster has found that usually
>AOL TOSs can be used to drive people out of the Forums
>for ideological reasons.
>
>I ask you to please, as the very least, cite him with a TOS
>for this harassment. I believe he should actually be removed
>as Forum Leader because he will never be a fair and impartial
>person in his conduct towards people who do not share his
>fundamentalist Bahai views. Let me add I myself am a Bahai.
>
>FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
>https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
>alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
>
>
>
>
>
>Subj: files
>Date: 2/20/1999 11:51:17 AM Eastern Standard Time
>From: <A HREF="mailto:RBCF Mark">RBCF Mark</A>
>To: <A HREF="mailto:FG">FG</A>
>
>Fred,
>
>Since there are so many of them, I am going wait until our new librarian
comes
>on board (which should be shortly). She will be able to look at your
uploads,
>check them for TOS, etc.
>
>I will send her a note to that effect.
>
>Mark A. Foster
>
>
>
>THE MESSAGE BELOW WAS POSTED IN A FOLDER
>TITLED "Announcements":
>
>Subj: to TOS
>Date: 2/20/1999 2:34:41 PM Eastern Standard Time
>From: <A HREF="mailto:RBCF Mark">RBCF Mark</A>
>To: <A HREF="mailto:FG">FG</A>
>
>Fred,
>
>I have TOSed the below message (and the other one, which I am sending to
you
>separately) for spamming.
>
>After checking into it, I have determined that your files which include
>transcripts of conversations on newsgroups, listservs, etc. are not
permitted
>according to AOL TOS regulations. I have also deleted your other library
files
>which include the same.
>
>Sorry for any inconvenience.
>
>Subject: 15+ megabytes of files uploaded to Libraries
>Date: 02/20/1999 12:35 Central Standard Time
>From: <A HREF="aol://3548:FG">FG</A>
>Message-id: <19990220133543.17520.00000155@ng139.aol.com>
>
>I've uploaded more than 15 megabytes of files to the AOL
>Libraries today. They range from the earliest discussions
>on soc.religion.bahai about talk.religion.bahai during late
>1996 to as recently as October 1998.
>
>
>
>FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
>https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
>alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
>
>
>
>
>
>MY MESSAGE WAS POSTED IN A FOLDER TITLED
>FOR NON-BAHAIS:
>
>Subj: the other one sent to TOS for spamming
>Date: 2/20/1999 2:37:05 PM Eastern Standard Time
>From: <A HREF="mailto:RBCF Mark">RBCF Mark</A>
>To: <A HREF="mailto:FG">FG</A>
>
>Here is the other one,
>
>Mark A. Foster,
>Baha'i Faith Forum Manager
>
>Subject: For Non-Bahais
>Date: 02/20/1999 12:42 Central Standard Time
>From: <A HREF="aol://3548:FG">FG</A>
>Message-id: <19990220134259.17520.00000160@ng139.aol.com>
>
>Non-Bahais may like to know that I've uploaded
>more than 15 megabytes of files today to the AOL
>Libraries documenting the discussion for talk.religion.bahai
>from late 1996 through late 1998.
>
>They are also available on my website under the
>talk.religion.bahai Archive.
>
>I would like to invite the comments of the non-Bahais
>present on these files and related issues.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
>https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
>alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, February 21, 1999 9:35 AM
To: FG
Subject: Fw: (no subject)
FYI
I had uploaded 15+ megabytes from my talk.religionb.ahai
archive on Saturday....
-----Original Message-----
From: FG@aol.com <FG@aol.com>
To: TOSBoards1@aol.com <TOSBoards1@aol.com>
Cc: FG@hotmail.com <FG@hotmail.com>
Date: Sunday, February 21, 1999 12:21 AM
Subject: (no subject)
>The Bahai Forum Leader Mark Foster is exploiting the
>TOS rules as a form of censorship and in particular in
>using them to have my account permanently suspended.
>On Saturday I uploaded a number of files to the Bahai
>Libraries which he has now stated he has found ways
>of suppressing and alleging TOSs against. Please
>read his messages below as further evidence of his
>pattern to citing people with TOSs in order to control
>the information available to people on AOL.
>
>Incidentally, the messages he falsely accuses me of
>"spamming" were in separate folders, Bahai Forums/
>message boards/For Non-Bahais and Bahai Forums/
>Message Boards/Announcements. The messages are
>different in content and definitely not spam. By making
>such bogus charges Mark Foster has found that usually
>AOL TOSs can be used to drive people out of the Forums
>for ideological reasons.
>
>I ask you to please, as the very least, cite him with a TOS
>for this harassment. I believe he should actually be removed
>as Forum Leader because he will never be a fair and impartial
>person in his conduct towards people who do not share his
>fundamentalist Bahai views. Let me add I myself am a Bahai.
>
>FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
>https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
>alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
>
>
>
>
>
>Subj: files
>Date: 2/20/1999 11:51:17 AM Eastern Standard Time
>From: <A HREF="mailto:RBCF Mark">RBCF Mark</A>
>To: <A HREF="mailto:FG">FG</A>
>
>Fred,
>
>Since there are so many of them, I am going wait until our new librarian
comes
>on board (which should be shortly). She will be able to look at your
uploads,
>check them for TOS, etc.
>
>I will send her a note to that effect.
>
>Mark A. Foster
>
>
>
>THE MESSAGE BELOW WAS POSTED IN A FOLDER
>TITLED "Announcements":
>
>Subj: to TOS
>Date: 2/20/1999 2:34:41 PM Eastern Standard Time
>From: <A HREF="mailto:RBCF Mark">RBCF Mark</A>
>To: <A HREF="mailto:FG">FG</A>
>
>Fred,
>
>I have TOSed the below message (and the other one, which I am sending to
you
>separately) for spamming.
>
>After checking into it, I have determined that your files which include
>transcripts of conversations on newsgroups, listservs, etc. are not
permitted
>according to AOL TOS regulations. I have also deleted your other library
files
>which include the same.
>
>Sorry for any inconvenience.
>
>Subject: 15+ megabytes of files uploaded to Libraries
>Date: 02/20/1999 12:35 Central Standard Time
>From: <A HREF="aol://3548:FG">FG</A>
>Message-id: <19990220133543.17520.00000155@ng139.aol.com>
>
>I've uploaded more than 15 megabytes of files to the AOL
>Libraries today. They range from the earliest discussions
>on soc.religion.bahai about talk.religion.bahai during late
>1996 to as recently as October 1998.
>
>
>
>FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
>https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
>alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
>
>
>
>
>
>MY MESSAGE WAS POSTED IN A FOLDER TITLED
>FOR NON-BAHAIS:
>
>Subj: the other one sent to TOS for spamming
>Date: 2/20/1999 2:37:05 PM Eastern Standard Time
>From: <A HREF="mailto:RBCF Mark">RBCF Mark</A>
>To: <A HREF="mailto:FG">FG</A>
>
>Here is the other one,
>
>Mark A. Foster,
>Baha'i Faith Forum Manager
>
>Subject: For Non-Bahais
>Date: 02/20/1999 12:42 Central Standard Time
>From: <A HREF="aol://3548:FG">FG</A>
>Message-id: <19990220134259.17520.00000160@ng139.aol.com>
>
>Non-Bahais may like to know that I've uploaded
>more than 15 megabytes of files today to the AOL
>Libraries documenting the discussion for talk.religion.bahai
>from late 1996 through late 1998.
>
>They are also available on my website under the
>talk.religion.bahai Archive.
>
>I would like to invite the comments of the non-Bahais
>present on these files and related issues.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
>https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
>alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, February 21, 1999 10:33 AM
Subject: Re: Investors' Weekly (was Re: Baha'u'llah and tyranny)
Thanks for the information regarding Rick Schaut as an
Assistent to the Auxiliary Board for Protection. I was not
aware of that. I can state he's been a consistently fanatic
opposed to talk.religion.bahai for more than TWO YEARS
and often sank to very low levels in his attempt to defeat
it....
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
jrcole@umich.edu wrote in message <79t6s0$hv4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>When I recently on this Usenet list pointed out that Rick Schaut is an
>Assistent to the Auxiliary Board for Protection, Paul Johnson emailed me in
a
>surprised tone and suggested that this information explained a great deal.
>
>Schaut has a high opinion of himself but nothing he's ever said seems
>memorable to me, and I myself forgot about his position (and him
altogether)
>at one point. It is not surprising that the information did not stick in
>Paul Johnson's mind.
>
>Since ordinary, every day Baha'is are trained by the more cult-like
>administrators to spy on and report on other Baha'is to the administration,
it
>is not credible that someone in the Protection Branch never does any of
these
>things.
>
>But I would welcome a full description of what an assistant (or ABM) for
>protection actually does do. An ABM once called me up and asked me to keep
>an eye on someone in the community; I managed to convey my discomfort
>without having actually to say 'no', and the matter was dropped. Maybe
they
>had *me* watched after that. Of *course* the function of the Protection
>people is surveillance, monitoring, reporting and threatening. This crock
>that they don't have power is ridiculous. They have the ultimate power.
>They can by their position credibly convey a threat of ostracism to their
>victim.
>
>cheers Juan
>
>In article <36c1ad52.0@vlinsvr>,
> pjohnson@vlinsvr.vsla.edu (K. Paul Johnson) wrote:
>>
>> One last post-plonk response, my last to this barrage of personal
>> blame and interrogation:
>> :
>> : You didn't read it when Dr. Cole pointed it out on Talisman I?
>>
>> Don't recall; gee that has been a long time ago.
>
>
>Juan Cole
>History, U of Michigan
>https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai.htm
>
>-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
>https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, February 21, 1999 10:37 AM
Subject: Re: Houses of IN-Justice
Houses of INJUSTICE would be closer to the truth....
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
McKenny Michael wrote in message <79sp7n$qbm@freenet-news.carleton.ca>...
>
>Greetings, Robert, from Ottawa.
> Many thanks for your comments.
>
> (rlittle33@my-dejanews.com) writes:
>> Dear Mr. McKenny and friends:
>
>> These three people, all mature and experieinced, evinced the sort of
humility
>> and love and powerful devotion which make them stand out in a crowd, any
>> crowd. They, and the other Baha'is I know here who have worked or are
working
>> at the world center, all speak about their time there, and their
association
>> with the other Baha'is, including the Hands of the Cause of God, their
>> Councilors and the members of the Universal House of Justice, with
enormous
>> respect and liking. Or, liking and respect. I have never heard one single
>
> I'd like to express my appreciation for the individuals and the
>characteristics you mention. I have no doubt and I have never asserted that
>it is impossible for some people, especially those who focus on "humility,
>love and devotion" to have enormous respect and liking for the high
officers
>of the Baha'i religion.
> Of course, those who are the most obedient troops, and never look at
>anything except how high to jump and how long to stay in the air in
>response to the order, "Jump!" from their general, are going to feel
>good about him.
> The only problem with this in a movement whose stated reason to
>exist is to put an end to war and achieve the harmony of humanity is that
>there are quite a few humans who do not have this military mindset. There
>are lots of people who do require the essential principles of the Baha'i
>Faith, the harmony of reason and faith, the equality of women and men, the
>freedom of thought and expression, etc.
> I do not have any enmity towards the individuals and the institutions
>of the Baha'i Faith. I would much rather have the people who've put so
>much of their lives into it that they've become members of the Universal
>House of Justice die after they've been able to play a role in starting to
>guide the religion back onto the Middle Path by means of which it can most
>effectively achieve its purpose than be described in history books, if they
>and the Baha'i Faith are to receive any notice at all in history books, as
>those who went to their death beds refusing to permit their religion
>to practise its essential principles, insisting to their dying breath on
>the divisive excesses of fundamentalism from which the founder of their
>Faith suffered so terribly. I would far rather see the Universal House of
>Justice guiding in such a manner that it is earning the esteem, respect
>and love of humanity than only the feelings, however intense, of the few
>who are able to forget about fundamental principles and concentrate on
>the soldier's motto of obedience of anything at all.
> And if anyone sees anything other than good will in what I've written
>then I've failed to communicate as effectively as I hoped.
> May this find you very well, may the future treat you ever better, and
>may each of the days to come be better than the one it succeeds.
> To the Future,
> Michael
>
>
>
>--
>"My name's McKenny, Mike McKenny, Warrant Officer, Solar Guard."
> (Tom Corbett #1 STAND BY FOR MARS p2)
>
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, February 21, 1999 9:15 PM
Subject: Re: Baha'u'llah as Democrat
Milissa Boyer Kafes wrote in message <7aq1o7$krc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>
>Its the total lack of goodwill on this list that is so depressing..........
It's called "Bahai love."
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, February 21, 1999 9:56 PM
Subject: Re: Universal Declaration of Human Rights and Freedom of Conscience
Matthew Cromer wrote in message <79dpll$kto$1@camel0.mindspring.com
>
>I'm not sure what more there is to say. The Baha'i institutions stand
>for censorship (Review), for telling people they must be quiet or leave
>the faith (ala Juan Cole, Mike McKinney, et. al), for sending out
>"Councillors" and "Board members" to kow those who speak up things they
>do not wish to hear. Either that is in consonance with the spirit of
>Baha'u'llah, or not. I claim it is not.
What's truly appalling is so many of the hatchet men
are ignoramuses like Rick Schaut.... How the AO thinks
anyone could ever have any respect for such people is
beyond me....
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, February 21, 1999 10:06 PM
Subject: Re: Universal Declaration of Human Rights and Freedom of Conscience
Smaneck wrote in message <19990209105502.01033.00000101@ng-cg1.aol.com>...
I might add that at one point when
>Dr. Cole was having second thoughts about his resignation from the Faith
what
>the House of Justice demanded of him was not that he recant his scholarship
or
>his theology, but rather that he apologize to the NSA for calling them a
bunch
>of Third World dictators!
They certainly seem like Third World dictators to me.... working
through crude, contemptible hacks to silence those who perceive
their nakedness....
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, February 21, 1999 10:27 PM
Subject: Re: Universal Declaration of Human Rights and Freedom of Conscience
jrcole@umich.edu wrote in message <79vjom$ksu$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>
>As for corruption, that's not the way that manipulating national elections
is
>viewed by the Baha'i elite. They think they are doing what they are doing
for
>'the good of the cause' because some incumbent or up and coming possible
>candidate is unsuited to the office. Prepublication censorship and the
closed
>nature of most Baha'i meetings make it completely possible for the
authorities
>to keep such manipulation from being known to the general electorate.
Kathy,
I'm afraid this is indeed the way much of the Bahai Faith
works, on and off line....
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, February 21, 1999 10:35 PM
Subject: Re: Universal Declaration of Human Rights and Freedom of Conscience
jrcole@umich.edu wrote in message <7a1lco$d2n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
That this is my reading is one reason that I met the threats against
>me with publicity, since it was clear that people were being bullied this
way
>all the time and it was being gotten away with precisely because those
>bullied covered it up or fell silent, making it easy for the next person to
>be victimized. I decided that this behavior was cult-like and needed to be
>challenged. And I am quite convinced that my speaking out has prevented a
>whole string of further victims from being silenced or sanctioned.
This is my hope with talk.religion.bahai too....
>And don't worry, ultimately it is good for the community to have an
outsider
>gadfly like me. It only got to the point where administrators thought they
>could get away with dictating permitted speech to major academics because
>everyone was being too nice to and compliant with these bullies, who got
more
>and more arrogant. They've scaled back, now, and the community will
benefit.
Robert Hayden used to refer to them as THAT CROWD....
Most apropos. The man never expressed anything but
contempt for them behind their backs.... complaining to me
once he had given them too much too easily. I often recall
that when I hear of another attempt to exploit his career
by THAT CROWD....
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Monday, February 22, 1999 7:16 AM
To: brian@bfwalker.com
Subject: Re: Open Letter to Fred
I have not read your message. Please do not
email me directly. Post your opinions online in
public. I have placed your address in a filter.
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian F. Walker <bfwkendo@netvigator.com>
Newsgroups: alt.religion.bahai,talk.religion.bahai
To: FG@hotmail.com <FG@hotmail.com>
Date: Sunday, February 21, 1999 3:11 PM
Subject: Open Letter to Fred
>Dear Fred,
>
>you may not have noticed, but I have been silent over the last few weeks
>observing the fora on *.r.b and letting my emotions calm down. From your
>complete lack of response to my earlier posts I have assumed you have
>killfiled me.
>
>Listening to the various strands of conversation going on, I see a great
>deal of positive discussion. It is wonderful to see opposing views being
>aired and discussed. Even the on-going strife between Juan and Susan
>(sadly, Susans posts do not penetrate to my browser and I wonder if
>anyone could tell me why?) is of benefit because of the variety of
>responses we can read.
>
>Michael (Ciamar a tha Thu mo ghraidh?) M has a POV I cannot accept, but
>I appreciate his crafted and thoughtful posts. Timothy is a person I
>cannot agree with at all, but I appreciate the way he puts across his
>POV in a persuasive albeit abrasive manner. They all share a feature
>which makes the groups a delight:
>
>THEY HAVE SOMETHING TO SAY
>
>Which brings me to my request and the reason for this letter:
>
>Would it be possible for you, FG, to contribute
>something positive to this group that you have fought so hard to create?
>I have not killfiled you, in the hope that I will be able to find
>something worthwhile in your thoughts. Would you delight us with a POV
>which is clearly expressed, positive in style and creative?
>
>Would you not rather that you, as the instigator of this group, occupy a
>position of eminence as a person of clear and rational thought,
>innovative and bold, daring to be at the forefront of thought, instead
>of languishing in your present role? Will you not dare to find new
>arenas of action rather than dragging up irrelevant TOS battles and
>reposting stale items.? Is promoting your URL more important than
>providing reasoned thought? Will reposting dubious articles from Mr
>Mahdi or pseudo articles from CCrawfield bring you satisfaction and joy?
>
>Reading the recent exchanges concerning the manner of our interaction
>together, do you not agree that the differing views we hold can be
>expressed far better than has been the case? And if so, will you, as
>founder, not join in the move to make trb a centre of excellence?
>
>Please reconsider your place in the structure of trb, and reclaim the
>role which awaits you.
>
>Best regards,
>
>Brian
>--
>Brian F. Walker
>brian@bfwalker.com
>https://www.bfwalker.com
>
>
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Monday, February 22, 1999 7:23 AM
Subject: Re: What I Admire about Baha'i
Kent,
I had missed this message of yours until now. There have
been so many to trb I've had real trouble keeping up. I too
understand what you mean. When people like Rick Schaut
and some of the other literalists are known as what Bahais
are, it's best to be considered a pink rhinoceros....
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
Kent Johnson wrote in message <79rpd3$19$1@winter.news.rcn.net>...
>I often tell the other Baha'is in town that I am the only Baha'i in town.
>They know what I mean. It is very difficult to live a Baha'i life even
when
>all the other Baha'is do not. They seem to think that I care whether or
not
>they are on the rolls as Baha'is when, in actuality, it would be better for
>the Cause, in my opinion, if they were not. But that is not my decision.
>
>Baha'u'llah said that what they do to Him cannot harm Him. But what those
>who claim to be His supporters do can damage His Cause. I see it happening
>wherever I look.
>
>Warm Baha'i Love, --Kent
>
>
>
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Monday, February 22, 1999 8:01 AM
Subject: Re: Ms Maneck, Dr Cole
This
>> is deliberate on the part of my interlocutors; they have marching orders
to
>> muddy the waters and 'make Cole the issue.' So there isn't good will on
>> their parts.
"The Bahai Technique":
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/technique.htm
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Monday, February 22, 1999 8:06 AM
Subject: Re: Ms Maneck, Dr Cole
Ron House wrote in message <36D10915.5B719DF7@usq.edu.au>...
>Smaneck wrote:
>
>> Okay let me put it this way. Dr. Cole is uttering
>> things that are false when he has evidence
>> that runs in exactly the opposite direction. He also deliberately
presents
>> materials in ways he knows are misleading such presenting rumors of why
the
>> deep south teaching was stopped in such a way that those not familiar
with the
>> members of the NSA would be left with the definite impression that
members of
>> that body like Dr. Khazemzadeh were racist.
>
>I have read Juan's paper in which he discusses this, and I have to put
>on record that no implication of racism was apparent to me. The clear
>implication of his comments was that the NSA feared losing control, not
>that they were racist. Now having read some bad things about that
>campaign, I suspect Juan's criticism is in this case misdirected; but it
>was NOT an accusation of racism. Definitely not.
Thanks, Ron, for saying so. I myself have not had the
opportunity to read Cole's paper but knew Maneck
was lying....
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Monday, February 22, 1999 8:09 AM
Subject: Re: who is this, really?
Ron House wrote in message <36D102D9.666A6694@usq.edu.au>...
>Kathy Pascoe wrote:
>
>> My first exposure to the fact that the Baha'i faith existed was in early
>> 1997, when Fred began screaming about Mark Towfiq in news.groups. Those
>> who participated in the last two debates over the group's creation can
>> attest to my participation as a news.groupie, if they care to bother.
>
>I remember Kathy joining in the discussion.
Kathy,
Now that you know more about the Bahai Faith,
do you really blame me? If you'd like to read what
I was "screaming" about in now a fuller context, see
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/Towfiq.htm
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Monday, February 22, 1999 8:29 AM
Subject: Re: Majnun post
jrcole@umich.edu wrote in message <7aijth$j3j$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
Either way,
>she should be ashamed of herself for backbiting and slandering innocent
>Baha'is who are also old friends of hers.
Backbiting and slander are what Maneck excels at....
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/Maneck1.htm
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Monday, February 22, 1999 8:33 AM
Subject: Re: American Coversions: Islam vs. Baha'i
jrcole@umich.edu wrote in message <7ad3mc$p5m$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>
>
>Fred:
>
>The NSA claims 130,000 Baha'is in the U.S.
The NSA now inflates it to 140,000 on occasion,
when needed, to sound good....
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
But there are only about 60,000
>for whom they have good addresses who are eligible to vote in Baha'i
>elections. These are the Baha'is in good standing, who might actually be
>receiving *The American Baha'i* and bother to send in change of address
forms
>when they move (since most are apartment dwellers, they tend to move about
>once every two years, the average for U.S. apartment dwellers).
>
>Of the 60,000, the NSA's own figures show that about 1/3 actually attend
feast
>and are 'active', giving to the fund, etc. That would be about 20,000.
>
>When the City University of New York did a nationwide poll of 110,000
>households on religion in 1990, which has a very low margin of error, they
>found only 24 persons who identified themselves as Baha'is, which gave them
>as estimate of 28,000 U.S. adult Baha'is. This is low if one is
considering
>everyone with voting rights and 'good' addresses, but it is about right for
>'active' Baha'is.
>
>The NSA figures suggest that between 1988 and the present they have managed
>to increase by 40,000 the number of Baha'is in the U.S. However, if you go
>back over the figures given in the American Baha'i, it is clear that there
>has in fact been no such increase in the past decade (and if there had
been,
>it would have been very big news). The U.S. NSA is simply not being
truthful
>about its own statistics, apparently because the truth--that membership has
>been stagnant since 1979 if one subtracts the Iranian immigrants--would
>reflect badly on how the current officials have run the Baha'i faith in the
>U.S.
>
>cheers Juan
>
>In article <7abnq1$12rn@news1.newsguy.com>,
> "FG" <FG@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> jrcole@umich.edu wrote in message <7a5eqa$ftq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>> >
>> If things
>> >go on this way, they have a *far* brighter future in the U.S. than do
>> >Baha'is, who constitute only 60,000 or so adults in reality, many of
whom
>> >join for relatively short periods and leave, to be replaced by other
>> >short-timers.
>>
>> I've heard you cite the number before of only about
>> 25,000 Bahais in the US after sifting through the inflated
>> official numbers, such as 140,000.
>>
>> Are you revising that up now?
>>
>> FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
>> https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
>> alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
>>
>>
>
>Juan Cole
>History, U of Michigan
>https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai.htm
>
>-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
>https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Monday, February 22, 1999 8:42 AM
Subject: Re: Baha'is Ruling the World :)
Milissa Boyer Kafes wrote in message <7afn1o$21j$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>But TRB now exists! Can't you just let it go now? you won! There's no
need
>to be bitter anymore.
I didn't win. Others won. The non-Bahais who voted
for free speech and conscience won.... The fanatics
have demonstrated already quite convincingly here
on talk.religion.bahai that they remain opposed to the
indisputable Teachings of Baha'u'llah on these matters....
I feel very, very bitter about that....
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Monday, February 22, 1999 6:31 PM
To: knight@hrfn.net
Subject: Re: nature of the list
I don't have them but you should be able to find
them on www.dejanews.com
Good luck.
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
-----Original Message-----
From: Linda/Brendan Ring <knight@hrfn.net>
To: FG <FG@hotmail.com>
Date: Monday, February 22, 1999 11:37 AM
Subject: Re: nature of the list
>Mr. Glaysher,
>
> Do you still have the original Baha'i discussion list messages with the
>subject "nature of the list"? If so, will you please forward them to me?
>I'm afraid I deleted mine, and I would like to look at them again to
>examine what I wrote and how people responded to it in light of the e-mail
>and web page you sent me. I was responding to two messages from Anne
>Furlong. I would like those as well, if you still have them. Thank you!
>
>Sincerely,
>Linda Ring
>
>----------
>> From: FG <FG@hotmail.com>
>> To: Linda/Brendan Ring <knight@hrfn.net>
>> Subject: Re: nature of the list
>> Date: Sunday, February 21, 1999 8:43 PM
>>
>> Bahais have begun a concerted effort to extend
>> their censorship from soc.religion.bahai to AOL.
>> Further information may be found on alt.religion.bahai
>> or talk.religion.bahai.
>>
>> FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
>> https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
>> alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
>
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Monday, February 22, 1999 6:47 PM
To: List Administrator
Subject: Re: false listserv subscription
<<Message: [D-S] Will do lookups>> <<Message: [PENN] HOLSTON/HOLSTEIN 17th-18...>>
Sorry it's taken me a week or so to reply. I'm still receiving
all the messages posted to your listservs. I'm going to try
to attach them and insert them in here to give you the
complete headers in one way or another.
I really appreciate your help. My account is completely
overwhelmed by all this junk mail and takes several
minutes to download the few legitimate messages.
FG
FG@hotmail.com
From testcase2@USA.NET Mon Feb 22 08:25:12 1999
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Sender: "A discussion list for genealogy in AL, GA, FL and MS"
<DEEP-SOUTH-ROOTS-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From: George Turnipseed <BGeoT@AOL.COM>
Subject: [D-S] JOHNSTON&CALDWELL-HancockCoMS-1800s
To: DEEP-SOUTH-ROOTS-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU
I am searching for info, ancestors of James Johnston born c1810 in NC,
married Eleonore ___ c1830 Hancock Co MS. Their son, George W Johnston
born 1841 married Victoria V Caldwell.
Please contact by e-mail: BGeoT@aol.com
George Turnipseed
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Sender: "Genealogy discussion for Pennsylvania."
<PENNSYLVANIA-ROOTS-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From: groucho5@IX.NETCOM.COM
Subject: [PENN] HOLSTON/HOLSTEIN 17th-18th C. PA
To: PENNSYLVANIA-ROOTS-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU
Greetings,
This is my first post to the list. If any other readers have
connections to or information on the surname HOLSTON (also spelled
HOLSTEIN, HOLESTON/HOLSTINE/etc), I'd appreciate a response.
The HOLSTONS/HOLSTEINS apparently were Swedes who immigrated to the
Delaware Valley region in the first half of the 1600s. I'm trying to
see if my HOLSTONS (in SW Virginia by the 1790s) are connected to those
from colonial Pennsylvania and Delaware.
Thanks,
Don Holston
Savannah, GA
-----------------------------------------------
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-----Original Message-----
From: List Administrator <list-admin@indiana.edu>
To: Stephens, Larry V <stephenl@indiana.edu>; 'FG'
<FG@hotmail.com>; 'lstadmin@othello.ucs.indiana.edu'
<lstadmin@othello.ucs.indiana.edu>
Cc: 'help@hotmail.com' <help@hotmail.com>; 'support@hotmail.com'
<support@hotmail.com>
Date: Tuesday, February 16, 1999 12:49 PM
Subject: RE: false listserv subscription
>I've searched back through all of the LISTSERV log files for February I did
>not find a subscription request from Mr. Glaysher for the
Deep-South-Roots-L
>list. I also did not find any indication that mail to this list was
>distributed to
>the address FG@hotmail.com.
>
>Mr. Glaysher -- are you still receiving list mail from our server? If yes,
>could
>you please forward a copy of a recent message, with full headers to me?
>
>
>Peggy Bassett
>University Information Technology Services
>Indiana University, Bloomington
>bassett@indiana.edu
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Stephens, Larry V
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 1999 12:27 PM
>> To: 'FG'; List Administrator
>> Cc: help@hotmail.com; support@hotmail.com
>> Subject: RE: false listserv subscription
>>
>> List Admin:
>>
>> I'm at a loss here. One of the lists you see below (that is here) is
>> DEEP-SOUTH-ROOTS-L. I scanned it for FG and I scanned it for
>> hotmail.com and I can't find any subscription for him. The headers still
>> don't look complete to me. If you look in the message from Stan Berkovich
>> and the message from Hannon below you'll see where hotmail.com received
>> the message (and those lists are not lists here). The messages from the
>> lists here don't show hotmail in their headers.
>>
>> Do you have any thoughts on this?
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: FG [SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 1999 6:28 AM
>> To: Stephens, Larry V
>> Cc: help@hotmail.com; abuse@hotmail.com; support@hotmail.com
>> Subject: Re: false listserv subscription
>>
>> I appreciate your attempt. I'm forwarding to you and
>> hotmail.com the full headers from a number of messages
>> in case that helps. I'm definitely still receiving messages
>> from your list and others.
>>
>> FG@hotmail.com
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Stephens, Larry V <stephenl@indiana.edu>
>> To: 'FG' <FG@hotmail.com>
>> Date: Monday, February 08, 1999 12:07 AM
>> Subject: RE: false listserv subscription
>>
>>
>> >I did a remove for your address and it found no entries.
>> >
>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> From: FG [SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
>> >> Sent: Monday, February 08, 1999 7:00 AM
>> >> To: STEPHENL@indiana.edu
>> >> Subject: false listserv subscription
>> >>
>> >> I've tried to receive your Review of subscribers list
>> >> but the robot won't permit me to get it. Someone must
>> >> have subscribed me under a false name and then is
>> >> forwarding it through another address or something.
>> >> It just started on the 4th or 5th if you can determine
>> >> what addresses are newly added.
>> >>
>> >> Thanks.
>> >>
>> >> I appreciate your help.
>> >>
>> >> FG
>> >> FG@hotmail.com
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ______________________________________________________
>> >> Get Your Private, Free Email at https://www.hotmail.com
>>
>>
>> Someone has subscribed me to several listservs
>> including yours that are flooding me with email.
>> A hotmail tech person suggested I Block them under
>> Options but it's not working because only the
>> individual is being blocked. I need to block the
>> entire listserv.
>>
>> I you are the listowner or can help, please
>> remove my address from your list of subscribers.
>>
>> Please help! This is extremely frustrating. I've
>> tried nearly a dozen times now to reach someone
>> at hotmail to help I just keep getting
>> autoresponders!
>>
>>
>> FG@hotmail.com
>>
>>
>>
>> owner-java-com@DISCUSS.MICROSOFT.COM
>> Java-COM@DISCUSS.MICROSOFT.COM
>>
>> LINGUIST@LINGUIST.LDC.UPENN.EDU
>> LISTSERV@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU
>> linguist@linguistlist.org
>>
>> PENNSYLVANIA-ROOTS-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU
>> owner-pennsylvania-roots-l@listserv.indiana.edu
>> DEEP-SOUTH-ROOTS-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU
>>
>> MTG-STRATEGY-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
>> PLI-Y2KLAW@PLI.EDU
>> owner-pli-y2klaw@pli.edu
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 1999 7:46 AM
Subject: Re: Correspondence with the House
jrcole@umich.edu wrote in message <7ad37u$p0q$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>And what has been the role of rightwing Baha'is on lists like this but to
>flame people, put them on trial, contend with them, fight them verbally,
and
>generally spread conflict? How are they engaged in anything different from
>what the polemicists of all religions do?
>
>Baha'u'llah was in fact distressed about contention. But he was also
>distressed about the lack of justice. It caused contention for him to call
>for a parliament in the Absolutist Ottoman and Qajar empires. He did it
>anyway. It caused contention for him to condemn the Iranian state's
failure
>to respect the rights (huquq) of its subjects. He did it anyway.
>Baha'u'llah contended. He preferred peace, harmony and unity. But when
>rights were run roughshod over and authoritarian repression was undertaken,
>then he was quite willing to denounce it loudly and in no uncertain terms.
"If he exercises his anger and wrath against the
bloodthirsty tyrants who are like ferocious beasts,
it is very praiseworthy...."
Abdul-Baha, SAQ, 215
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 1999 7:50 AM
Subject: Re: Correspondence with the House
McKenny Michael wrote in message <7aem5k$bsf@freenet-news.carleton.ca>...
> The contention arrives from such an insistence on one shade of opinion
>that everything is done to prevent the expression of other views, in total
>violation of fundamental Baha'i principle.
> Honestly, what is the cause of contention, Baha'i liberals presenting
>thoughts, or others, including the Universal House of Justice, seeking,
>with great effort, to stop the presentation of such thoughts, to prevent
>other people from meeting these thoughts, to respond to such thoughts with
>comments on personality and claims of contention.
> I repeat, if Baha'u'llah is heeded, then expressions of thoughts can
>cause no contention. For, he said that the means to human harmony included
>the unrestrained search for truth, the freedom of thought and expression,
>and the acceptance that each shade of opinion had an element of truth. To
>no one, including the Universal House of Justice, is it allowable to deny
>others freedom of belief, thought and expression.
It's the Bahai fundamentalists who made contention
unavoidable. Typically, they blame the victims of their
oppressive tactics....
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/technique.htm
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 1999 7:54 AM
Subject: Re: Correspondence with the House
jrcole@umich.edu wrote in message <7af8k8$kuo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>
>Was *The Babi and Baha'i
>Religions: From Shi`i Messianism to a World Religion* (Cambridge University
>Press, 1987) carried in the Baha'i World Center bookstore?
By Peter Smith. For those unfamiliar with it, in my opinion,
the first intelligent book on the Bahai Faith....
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 1999 7:58 AM
Subject: Re: Correspondence with the House
jrcole@umich.edu wrote in message <7agemm$lha$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>
>From my perspective the source of my complaint is the behavior of the UHJ,
>which has been for some time now un-Baha'i-like on this particular issue,
>even to the extent of chasing out of the faith persons who ought to be
>cultivated (and I don't mean me). But even if the complaint did well up
from
>some characteristic of mine or from some feeling of mine, that would be
>irrelevant as to the justice of the complaint. The question still remains,
>did Baha'u'llah and `Abdul-Baha intend to create a religion in which
>academic historians are threatened with being declared covenant breakers
for
>their email messages? If they did not, then the religion is not being run
>according to their plan, now is it? And the complaint would be justified,
>regardless of its precise motivation or the character of the complainant.
There can be no doubt that the UHJ itself is responsible
for the fanaticism that now hangs over the Bahai Faith....
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 1999 8:10 AM
Subject: Re: sanctions for email
Samples of such Bahai techniques may be found at
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/hate.htm
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/AOL.htm
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/Maneck1.htm
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/Towfiq.htm
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
jrcole@umich.edu wrote in message <7ath42$jqd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>
>
>Dear Kathy:
>
>Within the Baha'i administration there are "Auxiliary Board Members" or
>"Counselors", who are appointed by the elective institutions to impose
>orthodoxy and encourage proselytization. Although they are said to 'have
no
>power', in fact they wield the most powerful tool of all. They are
>influential in advising the elective bodies that a Baha'i should be
>disfellowshipped, ostracized, expelled or shunned. All Baha'is know that
>being investigated by an ABM or a Counselor could be the prelude to losing
a
>lifetime of friends and family, and are usually quite frightened at the
>prospect.
>
>Since the rise of email, there have been a number of instances in which
>individual Baha'is have been summoned to meetings with these officials and
>accused of heretical views expressed in their email postings, with demands
>that they recant these views and henceforth fall silent. Frequently a
sheaf
>of archived email messages to which exception has been taken is sent along
to
>the poster. I was myself investigated for my email postings and threatened
>with being sanctioned over them, but I am only one of dozens. Typically,
>those threatened want to hush it up, and aside from emailing me (I have a
>vast archive of such incidents) they simply fall silent. You will no doubt
>yourself see that some of the more liberal voices on this forum gradually
>disappear ast they are identified and threatened. Or most likely you won't
>notice that a regular has mysteriously disappeared.
>
>Such a meeting was held on Monday in a Midwestern state with an old friend
of
>mine who is accused of holding the wrong theology about Baha'u'llah among
>other things. (He is not an academic, by the way). This is an everyday
>occurrence in the Baha'i faith, at least in North America. I have come to
>think about the Baha'is as an odd sort of Mennonite or 7th Day Adventist.
>They are skittish about certain kinds of technology, especially printing
and
>the Internet, just as the Mennonites saw the telephone as a menace.
>Rightwing Baha'is are sort of like a peace church, which seeks to control
>conflict by the threat or reality of shunning, and which demands lack of
>"ego" from the individual Baha'i.
>
>Thinking of them like this, despite the admitted 'stretch' involved, helps
me
>to put into perspective the very *controlling* aspect of the community as
>well as its admirable devotion to peace and world-mindedness. (It is no
fun
>to be a nonconformist among the Amish, either; you end up being shunned;
>ditto with Watchtower). One difference is that the Baha'is on the whole
have
>managed to have the controlling aspect of their community not foregrounded
in
>the consciousness of mainstream U.S. society, and it can even remain hidden
>from a lot of ordinary Baha'is. After all, if you've never been personally
>threatened; and if those in your community who have been threatened are
>concerned enough about their reputations to keep it to themselves; then you
>would never know it had gone on, would you?
>
>cheers Juan
>
>In article <7as8vu$s4c@drn.newsguy.com>,
> Kathy Pascoe <kathy@scconsult.com> wrote:
>> In article <7antko$v8e$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, jrcole@umich.edu says...
>> >
>> >There have been people who pleaded with me to confide in them, saying
>> >they were 'objective' or were 'friends' and then immediately forwarded
>> >my messages to officials.
>>
>> Except in limited cases [1], the use of someone's email or newsgroup
>> postings against him or her in Real Life is repulsive to me.
>>
>
>Juan Cole
>History, U of Michigan
>https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai.htm
>
>-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
>https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 1999 8:41 AM
Subject: Re: Majnun post
jrcole@umich.edu wrote in message <7athg7$k5o$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
If
>the house of justice can't even stand to have Michael McKenny in the same
>religion with it, can it ever hope to be a force for true harmony and
concord
>amongst the contending peoples of the earth??
Platonists, pantheists, and pagans contributed immensely
to the development of Christianity....
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 1999 5:18 PM
Subject: Re: sanctions for email
Smaneck wrote in message <19990223110452.01159.00002907@ng-fi1.aol.com>...
>Juan writes:
>
>>Such a meeting was held on Monday in a Midwestern state with an old friend
of
>>mine who is accused of holding the wrong theology about Baha'u'llah among
>>other things. (He is not an academic, by the way).
>
>Juan has his facts garbled here but there is a problem and I will be
staying
>off of TRB for the time being in order to devote my energies to trying to
get
>the it straightened out.
Good riddance. As far as I'm concerned you've done
nothing on talk.religion.bahai but lie, falsely accuse others of
"slander," and refer to people's views as "garbage." I hope you
learn something from the current inquisition, enough to
wake up....
Incidentally, I hope you stay off AOL too, since you and
Mark Foster are obviously in cahoots. It would be a much
nicer forum there to get rid of two Bahai fanatics at once....
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 1999 8:03 AM
Subject: Re: sanctions for email
jayliz77@my-dejanews.com wrote in message
<7avlm5$gej$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
juan writes:
>
>Such a meeting was held on Monday in a Midwestern state with an old friend
of
>mine who is accused of holding the wrong theology about Baha'u'llah among
>other things. (He is not an academic, by the way).
>
Maneck writes:
>Juan has his facts garbled here but there is a problem and I will be
> staying off of TRB for the time being in order to devote my energies to
trying to
> get the it straightened out.
>
jayliz writes:
>Is this for real? My God, what are we (Baha'is) doing to each other in the
>name of Baha'u'llah...?
All kinds of dirty things.... History is most gruesomely
stocked with suggestions of what the future might
hold should the Bahai Faith ever amount to anything....
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 1999 9:05 AM
Subject: Re: sanctions for email
>jayliz writes:
>>Is this for real? My God, what are we (Baha'is) doing to each other in the
>>name of Baha'u'llah...?
>
Glaysher wrote:
>All kinds of dirty things.... History is most gruesomely
>stocked with suggestions of what the future might
>hold should the Bahai Faith ever amount to anything....
Permit me to expatiate.... Sending email accusing other
Bahais of being covenant breakers or having erred or
being "dangerously close" to their thinking or creating "disunity"
by not swallowing the approved idiocies; threatening others
in numerous ways with email and annonymous telephone
calls, several a day at crucial junctures of discussion or voting
on talk.religion.bahai; cars pulling up in front of my house
with people craning their necks to gawk in at the "center of
sedition"; the BCCA lying and deceiving for more than TWO
years about its opposition to free speech and conscience
and scheming, apparently under the direction of Mark Towfiq,
in sundry ways, for the defeat of talk.religion.bahai; the UHJ
itself incontestably, tacitly supporting such techniques....
And now some other poor victim writhes on the rack....
I feel for him and know his pain.... Pray God, they not rip
out his tongue so that some grace-filled day he may bear
witness here, on talk.religion.bahai, to the horrors of the
Bahai gulag....
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Friday, February 26, 1999 8:08 AM
Subject: Re: communicating intellectuals (?)
It seems to me the Bahai right wing is primarily made
up of Iranian Bahais, though many other nationalities
have been dragooned into their faction or Jesuit order. This
is especially true when it comes to the Bahai elections which
are often quite meaningless. It should be obvious to anyone with
any real sensitivity to what's taking place that the people with
the real power are often behind the scenes influencing the
outcome of "consultation."
I've witnessed this many, many times during my 23 years
as a Bahai.
I blame the UHJ for this state of affairs and the continuing
fanatical atmosphere that beclouds the Bahai Faith.
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
jrcole@umich.edu wrote in message <7b5hc9$haa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>
>
>Dear Robert:
>
>Well, I think you will have noticed that the PH level has rather declined
now
>that a couple of the more abusive posters are apparently busy elsewhere.
It
>
>I would like, though, to defend my use of the phrase 'right wing Baha'is.'
>Actually, I think just saying the phrase is very positive for all sorts of
>reasons. Anyone who lives in a Baha'i community eventually meets very
>narrow-minded Baha'is, often having a great deal of power or influence.
>
>These narrow-minded Baha'is believe that anyone who disagrees with them is
a
>covenant breaker or at least 'infirm in the covenant.' They emphasize fear
>and absolute obedience over love and forgiveness. They consistently
>interpret scripture in a somewhat literal fashion, putting religion above
>science, so that if `Abdul-Baha says that Socrates conversed with Hebrew
>prophets in Palestine, then, by God, he did and no one may question this.
>(We know quite a lot about Socrates, and it is clear from the sources that
he
>never travelled out of Greece; and he didn't live at a time when there were
>any known Hebrew prophets to converse with). Or if Baha'u'llah says every
>planet has life, then even Venus and Mercury must, somwhere. They believe
>that women are inferior to men, which is why they can't dilute the
universal
>house of justice with their presence. They denounce the U.S. Bill of
Rights
>as a corrupt manifestation of the old world order and trumpet its
abrogation.
> They believe in establishing a Baha'i theocracy that would supplant
>multiparty democracies. They believe that the expression of individual
>conscience in the Baha'i faith is allowed only if one agrees with people
like
>them.
>
>Now, these sorts of individuals exist in the Baha'i community; they exist
in
>some numbers; and they often enjoy high elective or appointive office. I
>don't think they are the sum and total of the Baha'i community, which is
>usually substantially to their left. But they are somewhat hegemonic. Some
>critics of the Baha'i faith speak of it as if these right-wing Baha'is
*are*
>the sum total of the faith. What identifying them as having right-wing
>beliefs does is allow us to see that they are only one subculture in the
>Baha'i religion, which is quite diverse. And it also allows us to begin
>tallying up how many ABM, Counselor, and NSA slots they have as opposed to
>the normal Baha'is. My own suspicion is that the right-wing Baha'is have
>established informal networks of patronage and clientelage that have
>gradually allowed them to become dominant in the power structures. But you
>can't see that until you can see that the community is differentiated.
>
>Now, there are a lot of objectionable features of the Baha'i Right, which
in
>its denunciation of secular humanism sounds very much like Jerry Falwell
and
>the Christian Coalition instead of the Baha'i faith. If one cannot
identify
>these people as *right-wing* Baha'is, then when one criticizes these things
>one is forced to criticize *the Baha'i faith* in toto. That is what the
>Right wants, but it isn't correct, it isn't fair to the Baha'is, and it
isn't
>right.
>
>cheers Juan
>
>
>In article <7b2uuk$7qa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> rlittle33@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>> Dear Dr. Cole and friends:
>>
>> While I have profound reservations about the use of terms such as "right
>> wing", "fundamentalist", "liberal" and other similar masks, I do
generally
>> agree that rationality should be prevalent, although I feel that love
ought
>> to be the foundation. Rationality, important as it is can take you only
so
>> far, eh? But love.....!
>>
>> my two sense,
>>
>> Robert A. Little
>>
>
>
>Juan Cole
>History, U of Michigan
>https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai.htm
>
>-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
>https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Friday, February 26, 1999 8:16 AM
Subject: Re: Baha'i Schools of Thought
Kidnykid wrote in message <19990224235651.28424.00000896@ng04.aol.com>...
>>It seems to me that the existence of different schools of thought within
the
>>Baha'i community is a reality at the present time,
>
>I must share an observation at this point.
>
>One of the things that actually drove me away from the faith is the
similarity
>of interpretations and viewpoints. Now, I'm not talking about believing
that
>Baha'u'llah was the Founder or that Shoghi Effendi was the Guardian. I
consider
>these givens that a Bahai must accept.
>
>However, it seemed to me that people giving lectures on certain topics
sounded
>almost identical to each other on every single detail - not the essentials,
but
>every single detail, as if they had to run their oral statements by
Wilmette
>like a book or magazine article.
>
>I don't like that - I don't want to say what it smacks of but suffice it to
say
>that it isn't pleasant.
I believe you're onto something that's very important
to understand. We're witnessing this phenomenon all
the time here on Usenet. There's a set collection of
answers and defenses that are repeated over and over,
coached I'm sure, at times, from the sidelines by the
Bahai Jesuit Order. In this sense, it has seemed to me
for a very long time that the Bahai Faith is not a "living
religion," but one quite ossified. There's a text; it's taught
at summer schools and by Iranian Bahais and one mustn't
depart from it.... Living religions evolve and permit their
followers to probe its depths, returning with precious
jewels all may share and benefit from.
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Friday, February 26, 1999 8:25 AM
Subject: Re: Questions for Ex-Bahais
jrcole@umich.edu wrote in message <7b5g9r$gft$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
One problem in the
>past has been that ex-Baha'is just fade away, and there is no way to
>register *their* experiences for history.
I've noticed the same thing and last fall created a page on my
website Ex-Bahais Explain Why....
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/Ex.htm
FG....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
https://members.tripod.com/~FG/index.htm On talk.religion.bahai,
alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards
----------
From: Fred Laister[SMTP:laisters@granite.net.au]
Sent: Friday, February 26, 1999 8:16 PM
To: FG@hotmail.com
Subject: Information Please
Dear Fred,
Congradulations on your web page it is most informative in sorting out
the truth from fiction. I recently became a member of the bahai some months
ago, (I live in South Australia) like a lot of people I was drawn to the
philosophy of the unity of bahais. However right from the beginning I
noticed some reluctance to give me information where I can obtain some
historical facts regarding the history of Hussein Ali (bahaullah) from an
independant source. All I've managed to read of his early life is nonsense
about having superior intelligence without ever having attended school etc.
Even something about him arguing a case in the courts at the tender age of
seven etc. I'm sure you have come across this yourself. Anyway every time I
question the veracity of these claims I'm promptly told that in time I'll
come to understand.
My basic questions are: who or what confined him to the prison in Akka, (I
presume his wife also lived there with him) what was the purpose of this
penal city?
Also who provided the funds for his very comfortable existence in later years?
In fact my basic questions about bahaullah and his organization are simply,
how, what, where and when.
I apologise for imposing on you but if you could give me some info on the
history of bahaullah I would be most appreciative.
Yours sincerely, Frederick Laister.
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, February 28, 1999 7:52 AM
To: Fred Laister
Subject: Re: Information Please
I really don't know the answers to your questions.
My best advice would be for you to ask them on
talk.religion.bahai where Juan Cole, of the University
of Michigan, might be able to help you and other
scholars.
Do you have access to Usenet? If not you could
use www.dejanews.com by search for talk.religion.bahai
and setting up your own free account on dejanews.
Good luck.
FG
-----Original Message-----
From: Fred Laister <laisters@granite.net.au>
To: FG@hotmail.com <FG@hotmail.com>
Date: Saturday, February 27, 1999 10:31 AM
Subject: Information Please
>Dear Fred,
> Congradulations on your web page it is most informative in sorting out
>the truth from fiction. I recently became a member of the bahai some months
>ago, (I live in South Australia) like a lot of people I was drawn to the
>philosophy of the unity of bahais. However right from the beginning I
>noticed some reluctance to give me information where I can obtain some
>historical facts regarding the history of Hussein Ali (bahaullah) from an
>independant source. All I've managed to read of his early life is nonsense
>about having superior intelligence without ever having attended school etc.
>Even something about him arguing a case in the courts at the tender age of
>seven etc. I'm sure you have come across this yourself. Anyway every time I
>question the veracity of these claims I'm promptly told that in time I'll
>come to understand.
>
>My basic questions are: who or what confined him to the prison in Akka, (I
>presume his wife also lived there with him) what was the purpose of this
>penal city?
>Also who provided the funds for his very comfortable existence in later
years?
>In fact my basic questions about bahaullah and his organization are simply,
>how, what, where and when.
>
>I apologise for imposing on you but if you could give me some info on the
>history of bahaullah I would be most appreciative.
>
>Yours sincerely, Frederick Laister.
----------
From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, February 28, 1999 8:02 AM
To: LISTSERV Administrator
Cc: List Administrator; stephenl@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: false listserv subscription
It looks like testcase2@usa.net must have been it. For
reasons I don't understand, not only have you set that
account to nomail and turned off the listserv mail to me
from Indiana.edu but it's also turned off ALL the listservs
that were bombarding me with a 100+ messages a day!
Thanks a lot!
I'm really grateful to both of you for the time and effort you
must have put into correcting this situation.
FG
FG@hotmail.com
-----Original Message-----
From: LISTSERV Administrator <lstadmin@indiana.edu>
To: FG <FG@hotmail.com>
Cc: List Administrator <list-admin@indiana.edu>; stephenl@indiana.edu
<stephenl@indiana.edu>
Date: Friday, February 26, 1999 10:32 AM
Subject: Re: false listserv subscription
>Frederick and Larry,
>
>Do you anything about the subscription testcase2@usa.net? If I'm
>reading the headers right it looks like the message sent to Frederick
>came from that address.
>
>Larry -- if you want to test this you could set testcase2 to nomail and
>we could see if that stops the flow of mail to Frederick.
>
>Peg Bassett
>UITS Messaging Team
>
>On Mon, 22 Feb 1999, FG wrote:
>
>> Sorry it's taken me a week or so to reply. I'm still receiving
>> all the messages posted to your listservs. I'm going to try
>> to attach them and insert them in here to give you the
>> complete headers in one way or another.
>>
>> I really appreciate your help. My account is completely
>> overwhelmed by all this junk mail and takes several
>> minutes to download the few legitimate messages.
>>
>> FG
>> FG@hotmail.com
>>
>>
>> >From testcase2@USA.NET Mon Feb 22 08:25:12 1999
>> Received: from [204.68.24.139] by hotmail.com (1.1) with SMTP id
>> MHotMailB89ACFE724011D101708CCC44188B9B990; Mon Feb 22 08:25:12 1999
>> Received: (qmail 18627 invoked by uid 0); 22 Feb 1999 12:28:53 -0000
>> Received: from listserv.indiana.edu [129.79.5.189] by mx02 via mtad (2.6)
>> with ESMTP id 831DBVmoK0146M02; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 12:14:36 GMT
>> Received: from piano (129.79.5.189) by listserv.indiana.edu (LSMTP for
>> Windows NT v1.1a) with SMTP id <0.F38FDCE0@listserv.indiana.edu>; Mon, 22
>> Feb 1999 7:14:14 -0500
>> Received: from LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU by LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU
(LISTSERV-TCP/IP
>> release 1.8c) with spool id 17591351 for
>> DEEP-SOUTH-ROOTS-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU; Mon, 22 Feb 1999
07:14:12
>> -0500
>> Received: from imo12.mx.aol.com by listserv.indiana.edu (LSMTP for
Windows
>> NT
>> v1.1a) with SMTP id <0.F2CC3EC0@listserv.indiana.edu>; Mon, 22
Feb
>> 1999 7:14:12 -0500
>> Received: from BGeoT@aol.com by imo12.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id ODDLa24348
>> for
>> <deep-south-roots-l@listserv.indiana.edu>; Mon, 22 Feb 1999
>> 07:14:08
>> -0500 (EST)
>> Mime-Version: 1.0
>> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>> Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
>> X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 205
>> Message-ID: <7f98222.36d14a10@aol.com>
>> Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 07:14:08 EST
>> Reply-To: BGeoT@AOL.COM
>> Sender: "A discussion list for genealogy in AL, GA, FL and MS"
>> <DEEP-SOUTH-ROOTS-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
>> From: George Turnipseed <BGeoT@AOL.COM>
>> Subject: [D-S] JOHNSTON&CALDWELL-HancockCoMS-1800s
>> To: DEEP-SOUTH-ROOTS-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU
>>
>> I am searching for info, ancestors of James Johnston born c1810 in NC,
>> married Eleonore ___ c1830 Hancock Co MS. Their son, George W Johnston
>> born 1841 married Victoria V Caldwell.
>> Please contact by e-mail: BGeoT@aol.com
>> George Turnipseed
>>
>> -----------------------------------------------
>> List problems?
>> Check
>> your WELCOME message FIRST
>> https://php.indiana.edu/~stephenl/problems.htm SECOND
>> then contact stephenL@indiana.edu
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> >From testcase2@USA.NET Mon Feb 22 09:02:04 1999
>> Received: from [204.68.24.139] by hotmail.com (1.1) with SMTP id
>> MHotMailB89AD88C27E5AD101707BCC44188BDFD40; Mon Feb 22 09:02:04 1999
>> Received: (qmail 27973 invoked by uid 0); 22 Feb 1999 14:56:46 -0000
>> Received: from listserv.indiana.edu [129.79.5.189] by mx02 via mtad (2.6)
>> with ESMTP id 212DBVozY0136M02; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 14:51:50 GMT
>> Received: from piano (129.79.5.189) by listserv.indiana.edu (LSMTP for
>> Windows NT v1.1a) with SMTP id <0.7FB7F830@listserv.indiana.edu>; Mon, 22
>> Feb 1999 9:27:00 -0500
>> Received: from LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU by LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU
(LISTSERV-TCP/IP
>> release 1.8c) with spool id 17595104 for
>> PENNSYLVANIA-ROOTS-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU; Mon, 22 Feb 1999
>> 09:26:57
>> -0500
>> Received: from dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com by listserv.indiana.edu (LSMTP for
>> Windows NT v1.1a) with SMTP id
<0.17BCAA60@listserv.indiana.edu>;
>> Mon, 22 Feb 1999 9:16:56 -0500
>> Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4)
id
>> IAA21131; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 08:16:46 -0600 (CST)
>> Received: from sav-ga1-09.ix.netcom.com(205.184.8.41) by
>> dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com
>> via smap (V1.3) id rma021113; Mon Feb 22 08:16:24 1999
>> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U)
>> MIME-Version: 1.0
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>> Message-ID: <36D16753.A1B6DF27@ix.netcom.com>
>> Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 09:18:59 -0500
>> Reply-To: groucho5@IX.NETCOM.COM
>> Sender: "Genealogy discussion for Pennsylvania."
>> <PENNSYLVANIA-ROOTS-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
>> From: groucho5@IX.NETCOM.COM
>> Subject: [PENN] HOLSTON/HOLSTEIN 17th-18th C. PA
>> To: PENNSYLVANIA-ROOTS-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU
>>
>> Greetings,
>>
>> This is my first post to the list. If any other readers have
>> connections to or information on the surname HOLSTON (also spelled
>> HOLSTEIN, HOLESTON/HOLSTINE/etc), I'd appreciate a response.
>>
>> The HOLSTONS/HOLSTEINS apparently were Swedes who immigrated to the
>> Delaware Valley region in the first half of the 1600s. I'm trying to
>> see if my HOLSTONS (in SW Virginia by the 1790s) are connected to those
>> from colonial Pennsylvania and Delaware.
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Don Holston
>> Savannah, GA
>>
>> -----------------------------------------------
>> List problems?
>> Check
>> your WELCOME message FIRST
>> https://php.indiana.edu/~stephenl/problems.htm SECOND
>> then contact stephenL@indiana.edu
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: List Administrator <list-admin@indiana.edu>
>> To: Stephens, Larry V <stephenl@indiana.edu>; 'FG'
>> <FG@hotmail.com>; 'lstadmin@othello.ucs.indiana.edu'
>> <lstadmin@othello.ucs.indiana.edu>
>> Cc: 'help@hotmail.com' <help@hotmail.com>; 'support@hotmail.com'
>> <support@hotmail.com>
>> Date: Tuesday, February 16, 1999 12:49 PM
>> Subject: RE: false listserv subscription
>>
>>
>> >I've searched back through all of the LISTSERV log files for February I
did
>> >not find a subscription request from Mr. Glaysher for the
>> Deep-South-Roots-L
>> >list. I also did not find any indication that mail to this list was
>> >distributed to
>> >the address FG@hotmail.com.
>> >
>> >Mr. Glaysher -- are you still receiving list mail from our server? If
yes,
>> >could
>> >you please forward a copy of a recent message, with full headers to me?
>> >
>> >
>> >Peggy Bassett
>> >University Information Technology Services
>> >Indiana University, Bloomington
>> >bassett@indiana.edu
>> >
>> >
>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> From: Stephens, Larry V
>> >> Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 1999 12:27 PM
>> >> To: 'FG'; List Administrator
>> >> Cc: help@hotmail.com; support@hotmail.com
>> >> Subject: RE: false listserv subscription
>> >>
>> >> List Admin:
>> >>
>> >> I'm at a loss here. One of the lists you see below (that is here) is
>> >> DEEP-SOUTH-ROOTS-L. I scanned it for FG and I scanned it for
>> >> hotmail.com and I can't find any subscription for him. The headers
still
>> >> don't look complete to me. If you look in the message from Stan
Berkovich
>> >> and the message from Hannon below you'll see where hotmail.com
received
>> >> the message (and those lists are not lists here). The messages from
the
>> >> lists here don't show hotmail in their headers.
>> >>
>> >> Do you have any thoughts on this?
>> >>
>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> From: FG [SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
>> >> Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 1999 6:28 AM
>> >> To: Stephens, Larry V
>> >> Cc: help@hotmail.com; abuse@hotmail.com; support@hotmail.com
>> >> Subject: Re: false listserv subscription
>> >>
>> >> I appreciate your attempt. I'm forwarding to you and
>> >> hotmail.com the full headers from a number of messages
>> >> in case that helps. I'm definitely still receiving messages
>> >> from your list and others.
>> >>
>> >> FG@hotmail.com
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> From: Stephens, Larry V <stephenl@indiana.edu>
>> >> To: 'FG' <FG@hotmail.com>
>> >> Date: Monday, February 08, 1999 12:07 AM
>> >> Subject: RE: false listserv subscription
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> >I did a remove for your address and it found no entries.
>> >> >
>> >> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> >> From: FG [SMTP:FG@hotmail.com]
>> >> >> Sent: Monday, February 08, 1999 7:00 AM
>> >> >> To: STEPHENL@indiana.edu
>> >> >> Subject: false listserv subscription
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I've tried to receive your Review of subscribers list
>> >> >> but the robot won't permit me to get it. Someone must
>> >> >> have subscribed me under a false name and then is
>> >> >> forwarding it through another address or something.
>> >> >> It just started on the 4th or 5th if you can determine
>> >> >> what addresses are newly added.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Thanks.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I appreciate your help.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> FG
>> >> >> FG@hotmail.com
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> ______________________________________________________
>> >> >> Get Your Private, Free Email at https://www.hotmail.com
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Someone has subscribed me to several listservs
>> >> including yours that are flooding me with email.
>> >> A hotmail tech person suggested I Block them under
>> >> Options but it's not working because only the
>> >> individual is being blocked. I need to block the
>> >> entire listserv.
>> >>
>> >> I you are the listowner or can help, please
>> >> remove my address from your list of subscribers.
>> >>
>> >> Please help! This is extremely frustrating. I've
>> >> tried nearly a dozen times now to reach someone
>> >> at hotmail to help I just keep getting
>> >> autoresponders!
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> FG@hotmail.com
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> owner-java-com@DISCUSS.MICROSOFT.COM
>> >> Java-COM@DISCUSS.MICROSOFT.COM
>> >>
>> >> LINGUIST@LINGUIST.LDC.UPENN.EDU
>> >> LISTSERV@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU
>> >> linguist@linguistlist.org
>> >>
>> >> PENNSYLVANIA-ROOTS-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU
>> >> owner-pennsylvania-roots-l@listserv.indiana.edu
>> >> DEEP-SOUTH-ROOTS-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU
>> >>
>> >> MTG-STRATEGY-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
>> >> PLI-Y2KLAW@PLI.EDU
>> >> owner-pli-y2klaw@pli.edu
>>
>>
>
>
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