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--
FG
Rochester, Michigan USA
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Date: Thu, 07 Nov 1996 16:39:58 -0500
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Organization:
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To: "Richard C. Detweiler" <rdetweil@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: statement of principles part 1
References: <199611071911.MAA13396@primenet.com>
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Richard C. Detweiler wrote:
>
> Dear Friend,
>
> Thank you for your submission to soc.religion.bahai.
>
> I am returningthis to you for editting. I cannot allow the blanket
> statements:
I refuse to edit my post in any way whatsoever. Your role as a moderator is not
to be a fascist and stunt the serious exchange of ideas. Incidentally,
"editting"
is spelt with one "t."
>
> > It seems to me the growth of the Faith has been perhaps hopelessly stunted
by
> > the Iranian Baha'i influence upon the understanding of its teachings,
> > especially in this regard.
>
> and
>
> > and modest possibilities of human material. One that that such cultures as
that
> > of Iran blithely ignore in their futile, primitive, brutal search for
perfection
> > and obedience.
>
> to be postedi to the newsgroup. As stated with no supporting information,
> these statements are unfair stereotypes which could cause a lot of heat with
> no new light. :-) Please either strike them or edit them to make them more
> general or backed up by fact.
>
> Thank you for participating,
>
> Dick Detweiler
> rdetweil@primenet.com
> Co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai
>
> ================ Begin submitted post =========================
>
> > To: soc-religion-bahai@uunet.uu.net
> > Path: ppp-pm01-dy-1.ouhub.moa.net
> > From: <@moa.net>
> > Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai
> > Subject: Re: statement of principles part 1
> > Date: Thu, 07 Nov 1996 11:08:44 -0500
> > Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A.
> > Lines: 87
> > Message-ID: <3282098C.31E@moa.net>
> > References: <55sp6p$q76@nnrp1.news.primenet.com>
> > NNTP-Posting-Host: zeus.moa.net
> > Mime-Version: 1.0
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> > X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I)
> > To: karl1971@aol.com
> >
> > karl1971@aol.com wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > Personally, over the years I've been incredibly disillusioned with the
Bahai
> > > Community. I was brainwashed to believe it meant a lot of things it
> > > doesn't. To, illustrate, I can still remember going to a youth deepening
> > > when I was 17 and hearing this highly respected fiery lipped ex-radical
> > > ominously railing to us guys about "locker room talk" --- basically in her
> > > war like ways she was trying to instill a sense of shame for thinking
> > > unchaste thoughts ---- which was good in a sense ---- but believe me, the
way
> > > she worded herself was absolute condescending nonsense. She cleverly made
it
> > > sound like it was a terrible crime to get horny. --- The point being, at
the
> > > time, being a na ve kid, I took her way too seriously.
> > >
> >
> > Karl, people are evil and twist and debase every political and religious
form to
> > their own purposes. I've witnessed this same kind of thing in the Baha'i
Faith
> > many, many times. Who, if they have even a modicum of honesty and
perspicacity,
> > hasn't?
> >
> > > As you know, the Bahai Faith doesn't have priests, preachers, or any
> > > individuals who have the responsibility of telling people what to do,
unlike
> > > churches. However, from my experience I've discovered associating with
> > > "Bahais" and not expecting them to play the roles of surrogate priests and
> > > surrogate parish to be incredibly wishful and foolish thinking.
> > >
> >
> > Many people are all too willing to ASSUME these roles--through election or
> > otherwise makes little difference. Tainted wine in new vessels.
> >
> > >
> > > Moreover, it is precisely this sense of distrust for people in an
> > > authoritative position such as priests, that in my opinion, strikes a
nerve
> > > in America's character. ---- If one needs good tactics for mass
enrollments
> > > in the U.S., my suggestion is that we start with those aspects of the
Faith
> > > that appeal to those who have good reasons to distrust authority. After
all,
> > > isn't this distrust a tradition in this country?
> > >
> >
> > It seems to me the growth of the Faith has been perhaps hopelessly stunted
by
> > the Iranian Baha'i influence upon the understanding of its teachings,
> > especially in this regard.
> >
> > > If one needs a reason to see why its so easy for people not to be Bahais,
or
> > > for that matter, why it's so easy to disobey the Laws of God, look no
further
> > > than members of the influential Bahai Community playing surrogate priests
to
> > > those foolish enough to play surrogate parish ----- Which has the
inevitable
> > > effect of denying what's a part of life: what's worth respecting, what's
> > > worth being ashamed of, and what's worth forgiving.
> > >
> >
> > You, sir, have an Antinomian mind; you should OBEY!!!!
> >
> > > These roles have this effect because sooner or later a parish will wonder
if
> > > the priest is worth putting on a pedestal. As such, it will eventually see
> > > the natural flaws in his character and not take a damn thing he says
> > > seriously. Whereas with independent investigation of truth, which
> > > Baha'u'llah so brilliantly condones, there are no flaws to be
disillusioned
> > > with.
> > >
> >
> > In Young Goodman Brown, Hawthorne perceived it long ago: "Evil is the Nature
> > of Mankind." I also recall Ecclessiates: "The heart of the sons of men is
> > full of evil."
> >
> > > If one needs a good subject for a fireside or a deepening, I strongly
> > > recommend we deepen each other on whatever it takes to psychologically
break
> > > whatever it is that compels us to play such roles.
> >
> > In Some Answered Questions, Abdul-Baha says of evil, it "continues and
endures."
> > Not at all an upbeat modern concept full of psychological hope.
> >
> > >"I have sworn eternal hostility to all forms of Tyranny against the minds
> > >of man." - Thomas Jefferson
> >
> > >Maybe that's why the U.S. is the cradle of the Faith. What other countries
> > >are founded on such principles?
> >
> > You make me think of James Madison in the Federalist Papers: "I never expect
> > to see a perfect thing from imperfect man." An exceedingly Western,
Christian,
> > American notion, though all the great religions have a sense of the
limitations
> > and modest possibilities of human material. One that that such cultures as
that
> > of Iran blithely ignore in their futile, primitive, brutal search for
perfection
> > and obedience.
> >
> > FG
> > Rochester, Michigan, USA
> >
>
> ================ End submitted post ===========================
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From: "Richard C. Detweiler" <rdetweil@primenet.com>
Message-Id: <199611072154.OAA10843@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: statement of principles part 1
To: @moa.net ()
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 14:54:17 -0700 (MST)
Cc: srb-mods@bcca.org
In-Reply-To: <3282572E.2005@moa.net> from "" at Nov 7, 96
04:39:58 pm
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You write:
> > Dear Friend,
> >
> > Thank you for your submission to soc.religion.bahai.
> >
> > I am returningthis to you for editting. I cannot allow the blanket
> > statements:
>
> I refuse to edit my post in any way whatsoever. Your role as a moderator
> is not to be a fascist and stunt the serious exchange of ideas.
> Incidentally, "editting" is spelt with one "t."
>
I am sorry, but as submitted, your post does not meet the charter of the
newsgroup. It contains blanket statements about a group of people when
that statement can not possibly be applied accurately to all in that group.
It is therefore stereotypical and could be offensive to those in that group.
The charter for the newsgroup clearly disallows this type of post.
If you would like to support your contention by clearly identifying it
as your opinion and supplying some facts to support it or qualifying it
in a meaningful way, I would be happy to post your remarks.
Thank you for expressing your concern,
Dick Detweiler,
co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai
rdetweil@primenet.com
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From: "Richard C. Detweiler" <rdetweil@primenet.com>
Message-Id: <199611091538.IAA03876@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Bahai Community
To: @moa.net ()
Date: Sat, 9 Nov 1996 08:38:03 -0700 (MST)
Cc: srb-mods@bcca.org
In-Reply-To: <32847FF3.7532@moa.net> from "" at Nov 9, 96
07:58:27 am
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Dear Frederick,
Please reformat and delete personal reference to moderators and
blanket attacks against groups and I would be happy to post
your remarks,
Dick Detweiler
co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai
rdetweil@primenet.com
> Date: Sat, 09 Nov 1996 07:58:27 -0500
> From: <@moa.net>
> Organization:
> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I)
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> To: "Richard C. Detweiler" <rdetweil@primenet.com>
> Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Bahai Community
> References: <199611071911.MAA13396@primenet.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
> Richard C. Detweiler wrote:
> >
> > Dear Friend,
> >
> > Thank you for your submission to soc.religion.bahai.
> >
> > I am returningthis to you for editting. [sic] I cannot allow the blanket
> > statements:
> >
> > > It seems to me the growth of the Faith has been perhaps hopelessly stunted
by
> > > the Iranian Baha'i influence upon the understanding of its teachings,
> > > especially in this regard.
> >
> > and
> >
> > > and modest possibilities of human material. One that that such cultures as
that
> > > of Iran blithely ignore in their futile, primitive, brutal search for
perfection
> > > and obedience.
> >
> > to be postedi to the newsgroup. As stated with no supporting information,
> > these statements are unfair stereotypes which could cause a lot of heat with
> > no new light. :-) Please either strike them or edit them to make them more
> > general or backed up by fact.
> >
> > Thank you for participating,
> >
> > Dick Detweiler
> > rdetweil@primenet.com
> > Co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai
> >
> > ================ Begin submitted post =========================
> >
> > >
> > > karl1971@aol.com wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Personally, over the years I've been incredibly disillusioned with the
Bahai
> > > > Community. I was brainwashed to believe it meant a lot of things it
> > > > doesn't. To, illustrate, I can still remember going to a youth deepening
> > > > when I was 17 and hearing this highly respected fiery lipped ex-radical
> > > > ominously railing to us guys about "locker room talk" --- basically in
her
> > > > war like ways she was trying to instill a sense of shame for thinking
> > > > unchaste thoughts ---- which was good in a sense ---- but believe me,
the way
> > > > she worded herself was absolute condescending nonsense. She cleverly
made it
> > > > sound like it was a terrible crime to get horny. --- The point being, at
the
> > > > time, being a na ve kid, I took her way too seriously.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Karl, people are evil and twist and debase every political and religious
form to
> > > their own purposes. I've witnessed this same kind of thing in the Baha'i
Faith
> > > many, many times. Who, if they have even a modicum of honesty and
perspicacity,
> > > hasn't?
> > >
> > > > As you know, the Bahai Faith doesn't have priests, preachers, or any
> > > > individuals who have the responsibility of telling people what to do,
unlike
> > > > churches. However, from my experience I've discovered associating with
> > > > "Bahais" and not expecting them to play the roles of surrogate priests
and
> > > > surrogate parish to be incredibly wishful and foolish thinking.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Many people are all too willing to ASSUME these roles--through election or
> > > otherwise makes little difference. Tainted wine in new vessels.
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Moreover, it is precisely this sense of distrust for people in an
> > > > authoritative position such as priests, that in my opinion, strikes a
nerve
> > > > in America's character. ---- If one needs good tactics for mass
enrollments
> > > > in the U.S., my suggestion is that we start with those aspects of the
Faith
> > > > that appeal to those who have good reasons to distrust authority. After
all,
> > > > isn't this distrust a tradition in this country?
> > > >
> > >
> > > It seems to me the growth of the Faith has been perhaps hopelessly stunted
by
> > > the Iranian Baha'i influence upon the understanding of its teachings,
> > > especially in this regard. [At the insistence of the "moderator," the best
recent evidence of
this in my experience is Richard C. Detweiler's censoring of this posting
> the first time I submitted it. As a pre-Reformation, or non-Reformation
culture, Iran
> has the typical tendency to disallow the free exchange of opinion. IMHO, this
cultural
> predilection is shared by SOME Iranian Baha'is. How could it not be?]
> > >
> > > > If one needs a reason to see why its so easy for people not to be
Bahais, or
> > > > for that matter, why it's so easy to disobey the Laws of God, look no
further
> > > > than members of the influential Bahai Community playing surrogate
priests to
> > > > those foolish enough to play surrogate parish ----- Which has the
inevitable
> > > > effect of denying what's a part of life: what's worth respecting, what's
> > > > worth being ashamed of, and what's worth forgiving.
> > > >
> > >
> > > You, sir, have an Antinomian mind; you should OBEY!!!!
> > >
> > > > These roles have this effect because sooner or later a parish will
wonder if
> > > > the priest is worth putting on a pedestal. As such, it will eventually
see
> > > > the natural flaws in his character and not take a damn thing he says
> > > > seriously. Whereas with independent investigation of truth, which
> > > > Baha'u'llah so brilliantly condones, there are no flaws to be
disillusioned
> > > > with.
> > > >
> > >
> > > In Young Goodman Brown, Hawthorne perceived it long ago: "Evil is the
Nature
> > > of Mankind." I also recall Ecclessiates: "The heart of the sons of men is
> > > full of evil."
> > >
> > > > If one needs a good subject for a fireside or a deepening, I strongly
> > > > recommend we deepen each other on whatever it takes to psychologically
break
> > > > whatever it is that compels us to play such roles.
> > >
> > > In Some Answered Questions, Abdul-Baha says of evil, it "continues and
endures."
> > > Not at all an upbeat modern concept full of psychological hope.
> > >
> > > >"I have sworn eternal hostility to all forms of Tyranny against the minds
> > > >of man." - Thomas Jefferson
> > >
> > > >Maybe that's why the U.S. is the cradle of the Faith. What other
countries
> > > >are founded on such principles?
> > >
> > > You make me think of James Madison in the Federalist Papers: "I never
expect
> > > to see a perfect thing from imperfect man." An exceedingly Western,
Christian,
> > > American notion, though all the great religions have a sense of the
limitations
> > > and modest possibilities of human material. One that such cultures as that
> > > of Iran blithely ignore in their futile, primitive, brutal search for
perfection
> > > and obedience. [Once again forced by the CENSOR, I apparently need to
point outthat
Iran (Baha'u'llah seems to have noticed this), as a culture, doesn't exactly
> value the free exchange of ideas.]
> > >
> > > FG
> > > Rochester, Michigan, USA
> > >
>
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Date: Sat, 09 Nov 1996 17:25:32 -0500
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To: "Richard C. Detweiler" <rdetweil@primenet.com>
CC: @MOA.net
Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Bahai Community
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Richard C. Detweiler wrote:
>
> Dear Frederick,
>
> Please reformat and delete personal reference to moderators and
> blanket attacks against groups and I would be happy to post
> your remarks,
>
> Dick Detweiler
> co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai
> rdetweil@primenet.com
Dear Richard:
Let me make sure I understand this: Moderators, like Hitler and other fascists,
are
above all criticism. The Kitab-i-Oppression says so.
I spelled out "SOME" though I believe the context, as well as reason, implies
it.
>
> > Date: Sat, 09 Nov 1996 07:58:27 -0500
> > From: <@moa.net>
> > Organization:
> > X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I)
> > MIME-Version: 1.0
> > To: "Richard C. Detweiler" <rdetweil@primenet.com>
> > Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Bahai Community
> > References: <199611071911.MAA13396@primenet.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> >
> > Richard C. Detweiler wrote:
> > >
> > > Dear Friend,
> > >
> > > Thank you for your submission to soc.religion.bahai.
> > >
> > > I am returningthis to you for editting. [sic] I cannot allow the blanket
> > > statements:
> > >
> > > > It seems to me the growth of the Faith has been perhaps hopelessly
stunted by
> > > > the Iranian Baha'i influence upon the understanding of its teachings,
> > > > especially in this regard.
> > >
> > > and
> > >
> > > > and modest possibilities of human material. One that that such cultures
as that
> > > > of Iran blithely ignore in their futile, primitive, brutal search for
perfection
> > > > and obedience.
> > >
> > > to be postedi to the newsgroup. As stated with no supporting information,
> > > these statements are unfair stereotypes which could cause a lot of heat
with
> > > no new light. :-) Please either strike them or edit them to make them more
> > > general or backed up by fact.
> > >
> > > Thank you for participating,
> > >
> > > Dick Detweiler
> > > rdetweil@primenet.com
> > > Co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai
> > >
> > > ================ Begin submitted post =========================
> > >
> > > >
> > > > karl1971@aol.com wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Personally, over the years I've been incredibly disillusioned with the
Bahai
> > > > > Community. I was brainwashed to believe it meant a lot of things it
> > > > > doesn't. To, illustrate, I can still remember going to a youth
deepening
> > > > > when I was 17 and hearing this highly respected fiery lipped
ex-radical
> > > > > ominously railing to us guys about "locker room talk" --- basically in
her
> > > > > war like ways she was trying to instill a sense of shame for thinking
> > > > > unchaste thoughts ---- which was good in a sense ---- but believe me,
the way
> > > > > she worded herself was absolute condescending nonsense. She cleverly
made it
> > > > > sound like it was a terrible crime to get horny. --- The point being,
at the
> > > > > time, being a na ve kid, I took her way too seriously.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Karl, people are evil and twist and debase every political and religious
form to
> > > > their own purposes. I've witnessed this same kind of thing in the Baha'i
Faith
> > > > many, many times. Who, if they have even a modicum of honesty and
perspicacity,
> > > > hasn't?
> > > >
> > > > > As you know, the Bahai Faith doesn't have priests, preachers, or any
> > > > > individuals who have the responsibility of telling people what to do,
unlike
> > > > > churches. However, from my experience I've discovered associating with
> > > > > "Bahais" and not expecting them to play the roles of surrogate priests
and
> > > > > surrogate parish to be incredibly wishful and foolish thinking.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Many people are all too willing to ASSUME these roles--through election
or
> > > > otherwise makes little difference. Tainted wine in new vessels.
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Moreover, it is precisely this sense of distrust for people in an
> > > > > authoritative position such as priests, that in my opinion, strikes a
nerve
> > > > > in America's character. ---- If one needs good tactics for mass
enrollments
> > > > > in the U.S., my suggestion is that we start with those aspects of the
Faith
> > > > > that appeal to those who have good reasons to distrust authority.
After all,
> > > > > isn't this distrust a tradition in this country?
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > It seems to me the growth of the Faith has been perhaps hopelessly
stunted by
> > > > the Iranian Baha'i influence upon the understanding of its teachings,
> > > > especially in this regard. [At the insistence of the "moderator," the
best recent evidence
of this in my experience is Richard C. Detweiler's censoring
> > the first time I submitted it. As a pre-Reformation, or non-Reformation
culture, Iran
> > has the typical tendency to disallow the free exchange of opinion. IMHO,
this cultural
> > predilection is shared by SOME Iranian Baha'is. How could it not be?]
> > > >
> > > > > If one needs a reason to see why its so easy for people not to be
Bahais, or
> > > > > for that matter, why it's so easy to disobey the Laws of God, look no
further
> > > > > than members of the influential Bahai Community playing surrogate
priests to
> > > > > those foolish enough to play surrogate parish ----- Which has the
inevitable
> > > > > effect of denying what's a part of life: what's worth respecting,
what's
> > > > > worth being ashamed of, and what's worth forgiving.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > You, sir, have an Antinomian mind; you should OBEY!!!!
> > > >
> > > > > These roles have this effect because sooner or later a parish will
wonder if
> > > > > the priest is worth putting on a pedestal. As such, it will eventually
see
> > > > > the natural flaws in his character and not take a damn thing he says
> > > > > seriously. Whereas with independent investigation of truth, which
> > > > > Baha'u'llah so brilliantly condones, there are no flaws to be
disillusioned
> > > > > with.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > In Young Goodman Brown, Hawthorne perceived it long ago: "Evil is the
Nature
> > > > of Mankind." I also recall Ecclessiates: "The heart of the sons of men
is
> > > > full of evil."
> > > >
> > > > > If one needs a good subject for a fireside or a deepening, I strongly
> > > > > recommend we deepen each other on whatever it takes to psychologically
break
> > > > > whatever it is that compels us to play such roles.
> > > >
> > > > In Some Answered Questions, Abdul-Baha says of evil, it "continues and
endures."
> > > > Not at all an upbeat modern concept full of psychological hope.
> > > >
> > > > >"I have sworn eternal hostility to all forms of Tyranny against the
minds
> > > > >of man." - Thomas Jefferson
> > > >
> > > > >Maybe that's why the U.S. is the cradle of the Faith. What other
countries
> > > > >are founded on such principles?
> > > >
> > > > You make me think of James Madison in the Federalist Papers: "I never
expect
> > > > to see a perfect thing from imperfect man." An exceedingly Western,
Christian,
> > > > American notion, though all the great religions have a sense of the
limitations
> > > > and modest possibilities of human material. One that such cultures as
that
> > > > of Iran blithely ignore in their futile, primitive, brutal search for
perfection
> > > > and obedience. [Once again forced by the CENSOR, I apparently need to
point outthat
Iran (Baha'u'llah seems to have noticed this), as a culture, doesn't
> > value the free exchange of ideas.]
> > > >
> > > > FG
> > > > Rochester, Michigan, USA
> > > >
> >
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From: "Richard C. Detweiler" <rdetweil@primenet.com>
Message-Id: <199611092303.QAA00271@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Bahai Community
To: @moa.net ()
Date: Sat, 9 Nov 1996 16:03:50 -0700 (MST)
Cc: srb-mods@bcca.org
In-Reply-To: <328504DC.4551@moa.net> from "" at Nov 9, 96
05:25:32 pm
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23]
Content-Type: text
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Dear Frederick,
I am sorry if you have a problem with moderated newsgroups. But if
you would like to take part in the discussion on this groups, you need
to make sure your submittals meet the charter of the group. I am
enclosing a copy of it for your reference. Please keep it in mind
while reviewing the post in question and my comments. Again, when
it is free of personal attacks and negative comments about a whole
group of people which could find them offensive, I would be happy
to post it. My reformatting request had to do with getting rid of
the '>'s that have build up over the course of our exchange.
Let me also reiterate that negative comments about the Faith are fine
on the newsgroup as long as they meet the charter. If you would like
to make a point that Iranian culture tends towards orthodoxy and that
that may impact the way some individuals act, that's alright. Just
make sure the comments meet the charter. If you want to say Baha'is
are a bunch of uptight, repressed, narrow-minded, religiously-conned,
non-intellectual, misguided saps, just make sure you say it with a
smile on your face, OK?
And one more thing, fascists like me like honey a lot better than
vinegar. If you take my meaning...
Your jack-booted, brown-shirted moderator friend,
Dick Detweiler
co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai
rdetweil@primenet.com
CHARTER FOR THE SOC.RELIGION.BAHAI NEWSGROUP
==============================================
PURPOSE
The newsgroup will act as a non-threatening forum for discussing and
sharing information about the tenets, history, and texts of the Baha'i
Faith. Prior to its formation there was a good amount of traffic on
this topic in other newsgroups; this group provides a "single point of
contact" for such discussion.
Examples of posts that fall within the group's scope are:
* The Baha'i Faith's relation to other religions
* Relevance of Baha'i principles to current world events/problems
* Analysis of particular scriptural passages or themes
* General Q & A
MODERATOR POLICIES
o The newsgroup will be subject to standards of Baha'i consultation, a
decision-making process whose salient features include frank yet
respectful statement of views and the concerted, open-minded search
for truth. In practice, the moderators will reject personal attacks
(flames) directed at individual posters, similarly inflammatory
attacks directed at religious institutions, and articles which use
offensive language. These guidelines are intended to regulate only
the tone of the discussions, and not their contents.
o The moderators will weigh the guidance available from the Baha'i
Institutions such as the Universal House of Justice, National Spiritual
Assemblies, Continental Counselors, and Auxiliary Board members in
determining the appropriateness of postings to the newsgroup.
o To avoid confusion, articles should not contain unpublished,
unauthorized translations of Baha'i texts. Instead, authors should
paraphrase untranslated materials. A good model can be found in Adib
Taherzadeh's 4-volume work, "The Revelation of Baha'u'llah."
o Posts which argue for or promote a succession of authority
outside the Covenant of Baha'u'llah will not be posted. This
does NOT preclude posts which ask about, explain or elucidate
the Covenant of Baha'u'llah.
o Repetitive postings (such as multiple responses to one request for a
book reference) may also be rejected.
o The moderators will not intentionally accept posts from individuals who
can not be reached by email. Note that this policy does not preclude
anonymous mailers, but a back-channel must exist.
o Any rejected article will be returned to the sender with an explanation.
The moderators may also, when it appears helpful, insert clarifying
remarks in posts, with the intent of maintaining a good signal/noise
ratio.
--------------3E69366EFD
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Date: Sun, 10 Nov 1996 07:07:25 -0500
From: FG <@moa.net>
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MIME-Version: 1.0
To: "Richard C. Detweiler" <rdetweil@primenet.com>
CC: @MOA.net
Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Bahai Community
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Richard C. Detweiler wrote:
>
> Dear Frederick,
>
> I am sorry if you have a problem with moderated newsgroups.
"Problem" is a derogatory characterization of my position. What I
disaprove of is CENSORED newsgroups. In my last posting, I apparently
hurt your feelings.
But if
> you would like to take part in the discussion on this groups, you need
> to make sure your submittals meet the charter of the group. I am
> enclosing a copy of it for your reference. Please keep it in mind
> while reviewing the post in question and my comments. Again, when
> it is free of personal attacks [you?]
and negative comments about a whole
> group of people which could find them offensive,
[I qualified the obvious, i.e., what ought to go without saying.]
I would be happy
> to post it. My reformatting request had to do with getting rid of
> the '>'s that have build up over the course of our exchange.
I'm resending it then.
>
> Let me also reiterate that negative comments about the Faith are fine
> on the newsgroup as long as they meet the charter. If you would like
> to make a point that Iranian culture tends towards orthodoxy and that
> that may impact the way some individuals act, that's alright. [sic] Just
> make sure the comments meet the charter.
[And God has enlightened you to make the decision?]
If you want to say Baha'is
> are a bunch of uptight, repressed, narrow-minded, religiously-conned,
> non-intellectual, misguided saps, just make sure you say it with a
> smile on your face, OK?
This, Richard, is a generalization, one apparently you find permissible.
I, however, will grant you what you refuse to grant me: The statement of
an opinion without endless, absurd qualifications, IMHOs, etc.
>
> And one more thing, fascists like me like honey a lot better than
> vinegar. If you take my meaning...
>
You're abusing your power. All fascists do/did. Threats stultify the
exchange of ideas as much as censorship.
> Your jack-booted, brown-shirted moderator friend,
You're trying to turn into a joke a very serious issue.
>
> Dick Detweiler
> co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai
> rdetweil@primenet.com
>
> CHARTER FOR THE SOC.RELIGION.BAHAI NEWSGROUP
> ==============================================
I don't disagree with any of this nor did my original post.
>
>
> PURPOSE
>
> The newsgroup will act as a non-threatening forum for discussing and
> sharing information about the tenets, history, and texts of the Baha'i
> Faith. Prior to its formation there was a good amount of traffic on
> this topic in other newsgroups; this group provides a "single point of
> contact" for such discussion.
>
> Examples of posts that fall within the group's scope are:
>
> * The Baha'i Faith's relation to other religions
> * Relevance of Baha'i principles to current world events/problems
> * Analysis of particular scriptural passages or themes
> * General Q & A
>
>
> MODERATOR POLICIES
>
> o The newsgroup will be subject to standards of Baha'i consultation, a
> decision-making process whose salient features include frank yet
> respectful statement of views and the concerted, open-minded search
> for truth. In practice, the moderators will reject personal attacks
> (flames) directed at individual posters, similarly inflammatory
> attacks directed at religious institutions, and articles which use
> offensive language. These guidelines are intended to regulate only
> the tone of the discussions, and not their contents.
>
> o The moderators will weigh the guidance available from the Baha'i
> Institutions such as the Universal House of Justice, National Spiritual
> Assemblies, Continental Counselors, and Auxiliary Board members in
> determining the appropriateness of postings to the newsgroup.
>
> o To avoid confusion, articles should not contain unpublished,
> unauthorized translations of Baha'i texts. Instead, authors should
> paraphrase untranslated materials. A good model can be found in Adib
> Taherzadeh's 4-volume work, "The Revelation of Baha'u'llah."
>
> o Posts which argue for or promote a succession of authority
> outside the Covenant of Baha'u'llah will not be posted. This
> does NOT preclude posts which ask about, explain or elucidate
> the Covenant of Baha'u'llah.
>
> o Repetitive postings (such as multiple responses to one request for a
> book reference) may also be rejected.
>
> o The moderators will not intentionally accept posts from individuals who
> can not be reached by email. Note that this policy does not preclude
> anonymous mailers, but a back-channel must exist.
>
> o Any rejected article will be returned to the sender with an explanation.
> The moderators may also, when it appears helpful, insert clarifying
> remarks in posts, with the intent of maintaining a good signal/noise
> ratio.
--
FG
Rochester, Michigan USA
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From: "Richard C. Detweiler" <rdetweil@primenet.com>
Message-Id: <199611101525.IAA23650@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Bahai Community
To: @moa.net (FG)
Date: Sun, 10 Nov 1996 08:25:37 -0700 (MST)
Cc: srb-mods@bcca.org
In-Reply-To: <3285CAB3.45FE@moa.net> from "FG" at Nov 10, 96
07:29:39
am
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23]
Content-Type: text
X-Mozilla-Status: 0015
Dear Frederick,
The following comments - as personal attacks which have no place on
this newsgroup - need to be removed before this will be submitted to
the newsgroup:
> especially in this regard. [At the insistence of the "moderator," the best
recent
> evidence of this in my experience is the censoring of this posting
> the first time I submitted it. As a pre-Reformation, or non-Reformation
culture, Iran
> has the typical tendency to disallow the free exchange of opinion. IMHO, this
cultural
> predilection is shared by SOME Iranian Baha'is. How could it not be?]
and
> [Once again forced by the CENSOR, I apparently need to point outthat
> Iran (Baha'u'llah seems to have noticed this), as a culture, does not
> value the free exchange of ideas.]
Strike these and incorporate your parenthetical comments into the main body
of your post and I would be happy to post this to the newsgroup.
Dick Detweiler
co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai
rdetweil@primenet.com
> From @moa.net Sun Nov 10 05:28:08 1996
> Received: from atlas.moa.net (atlas.moa.net [198.111.46.21]) by primenet.com
(8.8.2/8.8.2)
with SMTP id FAA29406 for <rdetweil@primenet.com>; Sun, 10 Nov 1996 05:28:07
-0700
(MST)
> Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.58) by atlas.moa.net
> (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id <B0000566576@atlas.moa.net>;
> Sun, 10 Nov 1996 07:23:00 -0500
> Message-ID: <3285CAB3.45FE@moa.net>
> Date: Sun, 10 Nov 1996 07:29:39 -0500
> From: FG <@moa.net>
> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I)
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> To: rdetweil@primenet.com
> CC: @moa.net
> Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Bahai Community
> References: <199611091538.IAA03876@primenet.com> <328504DC.4551@moa.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
> karl1971@aol.com wrote:
>
>
> >Personally, over the years I've been incredibly disillusioned with the Bahai
> >Community. I was brainwashed to believe it meant a lot of things it
> >doesn't. To, illustrate, I can still remember going to a youth deepening
> >when I was 17 and hearing this highly respected fiery lipped ex-radical
> >ominously railing to us guys about "locker room talk" --- basically in her
> >war like ways she was trying to instill a sense of shame for thinking
> >unchaste thoughts ---- which was good in a sense ---- but believe me, the way
> >she worded herself was absolute condescending nonsense. She cleverly made it
> >sound like it was a terrible crime to get horny. --- The point being, at the
> >time, being a na ve kid, I took her way too seriously.
>
> Karl, people are evil and twist and debase every political and religious form
to
> their own purposes. I've witnessed this same kind of thing in the Baha'i Faith
> many, many times. Who, if they have even a modicum of honesty and
perspicacity,
> hasn't?
>
> >As you know, the Bahai Faith doesn't have priests, preachers, or any
> >individuals who have the responsibility of telling people what to do, unlike
> >churches. However, from my experience I've discovered associating with
> >"Bahais" and not expecting them to play the roles of surrogate priests and
> > surrogate parish to be incredibly wishful and foolish thinking.
>
>
> Many people are all too willing to ASSUME these roles--through election or
> otherwise makes little difference. Tainted wine in new vessels.
>
> >Moreover, it is precisely this sense of distrust for people in an
> >authoritative position such as priests, that in my opinion, strikes a nerve
> > in America's character. ---- If one needs good tactics for mass enrollments
> > in the U.S., my suggestion is that we start with those aspects of the Faith
> > that appeal to those who have good reasons to distrust authority. After all,
> > isn't this distrust a tradition in this country?
>
> It seems to me the growth of the Faith has been perhaps hopelessly stunted by
> the Iranian Baha'i influence [SOME] upon the understanding of its teachings,
> especially in this regard. [At the insistence of the "moderator," the best
recent
> evidence of this in my experience is the censoring of this posting
> the first time I submitted it. As a pre-Reformation, or non-Reformation
culture, Iran
> has the typical tendency to disallow the free exchange of opinion. IMHO, this
cultural
> predilection is shared by SOME Iranian Baha'is. How could it not be?]
>
> >If one needs a reason to see why its so easy for people not to be Bahais, or
> >for that matter, why it's so easy to disobey the Laws of God, look no further
> >than members of the influential Bahai Community playing surrogate priests to
> >those foolish enough to play surrogate parish ----- Which has the inevitable
> >effect of denying what's a part of life: what's worth respecting, what's
> >worth being ashamed of, and what's worth forgiving.
>
> You, sir, have an Antinomian mind; you should OBEY!!!!
>
> > These roles have this effect because sooner or later a parish will wonder if
> > the priest is worth putting on a pedestal. As such, it will eventually see
> > the natural flaws in his character and not take a damn thing he says
> > seriously. Whereas with independent investigation of truth, which
> > Baha'u'llah so brilliantly condones, there are no flaws to be disillusioned
> > with.
>
> In Young Goodman Brown, Hawthorne perceived it long ago: "Evil is the Nature
> of Mankind." I also recall Ecclessiates: "The heart of the sons of men is
> full of evil."
>
> > If one needs a good subject for a fireside or a deepening, I strongly
> > recommend we deepen each other on whatever it takes to psychologically break
> > whatever it is that compels us to play such roles.
>
> In Some Answered Questions, Abdul-Baha says of evil, it "continues and
endures."
> Not at all an upbeat modern concept full of psychological hope.
>
> >"I have sworn eternal hostility to all forms of Tyranny against the minds
> >of man." - Thomas Jefferson
>
> >Maybe that's why the U.S. is the cradle of the Faith. What other countries
> >are founded on such principles?
>
> You make me think of James Madison in the Federalist Papers: "I never expect
> to see a perfect thing from imperfect man." An exceedingly Western, Christian,
> American notion, though all the great religions have a sense of the
limitations
> and modest possibilities of human material. One that such cultures as that
> of Iran blithely ignore in their futile, primitive, brutal search for
perfection
> and obedience. [Once again forced by the CENSOR, I apparently need to point
outthat
> Iran (Baha'u'llah seems to have noticed this), as a culture, does not
> value the free exchange of ideas.]
>
> --
> FG
> Rochester, Michigan USA
>
> From: FG <@moa.net>
> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I)
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> To: rdetweil@primenet.com
> CC: @moa.net
> Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Bahai Community
> References: <199611091538.IAA03876@primenet.com> <328504DC.4551@moa.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
> karl1971@aol.com wrote:
>
>
> >Personally, over the years I've been incredibly disillusioned with the Bahai
> >Community. I was brainwashed to believe it meant a lot of things it
> >doesn't. To, illustrate, I can still remember going to a youth deepening
> >when I was 17 and hearing this highly respected fiery lipped ex-radical
> >ominously railing to us guys about "locker room talk" --- basically in her
> >war like ways she was trying to instill a sense of shame for thinking
> >unchaste thoughts ---- which was good in a sense ---- but believe me, the way
> >she worded herself was absolute condescending nonsense. She cleverly made it
> >sound like it was a terrible crime to get horny. --- The point being, at the
> >time, being a na ve kid, I took her way too seriously.
>
> Karl, people are evil and twist and debase every political and religious form
to
> their own purposes. I've witnessed this same kind of thing in the Baha'i Faith
> many, many times. Who, if they have even a modicum of honesty and
perspicacity,
> hasn't?
>
> >As you know, the Bahai Faith doesn't have priests, preachers, or any
> >individuals who have the responsibility of telling people what to do, unlike
> >churches. However, from my experience I've discovered associating with
> >"Bahais" and not expecting them to play the roles of surrogate priests and
> > surrogate parish to be incredibly wishful and foolish thinking.
>
>
> Many people are all too willing to ASSUME these roles--through election or
> otherwise makes little difference. Tainted wine in new vessels.
>
> >Moreover, it is precisely this sense of distrust for people in an
> >authoritative position such as priests, that in my opinion, strikes a nerve
> > in America's character. ---- If one needs good tactics for mass enrollments
> > in the U.S., my suggestion is that we start with those aspects of the Faith
> > that appeal to those who have good reasons to distrust authority. After all,
> > isn't this distrust a tradition in this country?
>
> It seems to me the growth of the Faith has been perhaps hopelessly stunted by
> the Iranian Baha'i influence [SOME] upon the understanding of its teachings,
> especially in this regard. [At the insistence of the "moderator," the best
recent
> evidence of this in my experience is the censoring of this posting
> the first time I submitted it. As a pre-Reformation, or non-Reformation
culture, Iran
> has the typical tendency to disallow the free exchange of opinion. IMHO, this
cultural
> predilection is shared by SOME Iranian Baha'is. How could it not be?]
>
> >If one needs a reason to see why its so easy for people not to be Bahais, or
> >for that matter, why it's so easy to disobey the Laws of God, look no further
> >than members of the influential Bahai Community playing surrogate priests to
> >those foolish enough to play surrogate parish ----- Which has the inevitable
> >effect of denying what's a part of life: what's worth respecting, what's
> >worth being ashamed of, and what's worth forgiving.
>
> You, sir, have an Antinomian mind; you should OBEY!!!!
>
> > These roles have this effect because sooner or later a parish will wonder if
> > the priest is worth putting on a pedestal. As such, it will eventually see
> > the natural flaws in his character and not take a damn thing he says
> > seriously. Whereas with independent investigation of truth, which
> > Baha'u'llah so brilliantly condones, there are no flaws to be disillusioned
> > with.
>
> In Young Goodman Brown, Hawthorne perceived it long ago: "Evil is the Nature
> of Mankind." I also recall Ecclessiates: "The heart of the sons of men is
> full of evil."
>
> > If one needs a good subject for a fireside or a deepening, I strongly
> > recommend we deepen each other on whatever it takes to psychologically break
> > whatever it is that compels us to play such roles.
>
> In Some Answered Questions, Abdul-Baha says of evil, it "continues and
endures."
> Not at all an upbeat modern concept full of psychological hope.
>
> >"I have sworn eternal hostility to all forms of Tyranny against the minds
> >of man." - Thomas Jefferson
>
> >Maybe that's why the U.S. is the cradle of the Faith. What other countries
> >are founded on such principles?
>
> You make me think of James Madison in the Federalist Papers: "I never expect
> to see a perfect thing from imperfect man." An exceedingly Western, Christian,
> American notion, though all the great religions have a sense of the
limitations
> and modest possibilities of human material. One that such cultures as that
> of Iran blithely ignore in their futile, primitive, brutal search for
perfection
> and obedience. [Once again forced by the CENSOR, I apparently need to point
outthat
> Iran (Baha'u'llah seems to have noticed this), as a culture, does not
> value the free exchange of ideas.]
>
> --
> FG
> Rochester, Michigan USA
>
--------------3E69366EFD
Message-ID: <32871D67.A62@moa.net>
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 07:34:47 -0500
From: FG <@moa.net>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: "Richard C. Detweiler" <rdetweil@primenet.com>
CC: @MOA.net
Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Bahai Community
References: <199611101525.IAA23650@primenet.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mozilla-Status: 0015
Richard C. Detweiler wrote:
>
> Dear Frederick,
>
> The following comments - as personal attacks which have no place on
> this newsgroup - need to be removed before this will be submitted to
> the newsgroup:
>
These do not constitute personal attacks but exposures of your undue
interference
in the content on my postings. I can understand you would prefer no one else
should know about the issue. In my opinion, you're violating my constitutional
freedom as an American citizen and my privilege as a Baha'i to express my
conscience candidly. In both of these passages, I am taking issue with the
heavy-handed editorial practice that you seem to believe is justifiable. I trust
the spark of truth enough to manifest itself to allow others to speak their
minds.
That, to me, is a Baha'i principle, sorely neglected in your handling of my
post.
I believe it is legitimate use of the newsgroup to discuss the moderators'
procedures for manipulating discussion.
> > especially in this regard. [At the insistence of the "moderator," the best
recent
> > evidence of this in my experience is the censoring of this posting
> > the first time I submitted it. As a pre-Reformation, or non-Reformation
culture, Iran
> > has the typical tendency to disallow the free exchange of opinion. IMHO,
this cultural
> > predilection is shared by SOME Iranian Baha'is. How could it not be?]
>
> and
>
> > [Once again forced by the CENSOR, I apparently need to point outthat
> > Iran (Baha'u'llah seems to have noticed this), as a culture, does not
> > value the free exchange of ideas.]
>
> Strike these and incorporate your parenthetical comments into the main body
> of your post and I would be happy to post this to the newsgroup.
>
Your request to strike these is so as not to draw attention to your flawed
handling of my posting. You're now merely trying to protect yourself from
the possible censure you have earned. I'm not out to get YOU. Don't get
paranoid. It's policy that permits ANY moderator to do what you have that
concerns me. I believe that policy, in context, is worthy of discussion,
indeed, essential.
Your request to include my parenthetical comments constitutes another request
to obscure further the real issue. Your attempt to protect yourself at the
cost of silencing me.
> Dick Detweiler
> co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai
> rdetweil@primenet.com
>
--
FG
Rochester, Michigan USA
--------------3E69366EFD
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From: "Richard C. Detweiler" <rdetweil@primenet.com>
Message-Id: <199611111353.GAA06981@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Bahai Community
To: @moa.net (FG)
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 06:53:53 -0700 (MST)
Cc: srb-mods@bcca.org
In-Reply-To: <32871D67.A62@moa.net> from "FG" at Nov 11, 96
07:34:47 am
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Frederick,
The policy of this newsgroup is not to allow offensive material. Your
post contains two instances where you make blanket statements about
Iranians which many could view as prejudgemental and offensive. You
have also insisted on including attacks on the moderator, these are
not allowed as they are attacks on an individual. These comments must
be tempered - moderated if you will. The purpose of this group is to
share ideas and the moderators work to make sure that ideas and not
people are the focus of discussion.
I am sorry but that is all there is to it. I have handed off moderation
duty to the next moderator in the cycle as Sunday was my last day.
Please direct any further comments to the address srb-mods@bcca.org.
If you have problems with these policies as a Baha'i, I suggest you
take it up with a Local Spiritual Assembly or Auxiliary Board member
as well.
Thanks again for expressing your concerns,
Dick Detweiler
co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai
> From @moa.net Mon Nov 11 05:33:16 1996
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> Message-ID: <32871D67.A62@moa.net>
> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 07:34:47 -0500
> From: FG <@moa.net>
> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I)
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> To: "Richard C. Detweiler" <rdetweil@primenet.com>
> CC: @moa.net
> Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Bahai Community
> References: <199611101525.IAA23650@primenet.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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>
> Richard C. Detweiler wrote:
> >
> > Dear Frederick,
> >
> > The following comments - as personal attacks which have no place on
> > this newsgroup - need to be removed before this will be submitted to
> > the newsgroup:
> >
>
> These do not constitute personal attacks but exposures of your undue
interference
> in the content on my postings. I can understand you would prefer no one else
> should know about the issue. In my opinion, you're violating my constitutional
> freedom as an American citizen and my privilege as a Baha'i to express my
> conscience candidly. In both of these passages, I am taking issue with the
> heavy-handed editorial practice that you seem to believe is justifiable. I
trust
> the spark of truth enough to manifest itself to allow others to speak their
minds.
> That, to me, is a Baha'i principle, sorely neglected in your handling of my
post.
> I believe it is legitimate use of the newsgroup to discuss the moderators'
> procedures for manipulating discussion.
>
>
> > > especially in this regard. [At the insistence of the "moderator," the best
recent
> > > evidence of this in my experience is the censoring of this posting
> > > the first time I submitted it. As a pre-Reformation, or non-Reformation
culture, Iran
> > > has the typical tendency to disallow the free exchange of opinion. IMHO,
this cultural
> > > predilection is shared by SOME Iranian Baha'is. How could it not be?]
> >
> > and
> >
> > > [Once again forced by the CENSOR, I apparently need to point outthat
> > > Iran (Baha'u'llah seems to have noticed this), as a culture, does not
> > > value the free exchange of ideas.]
> >
> > Strike these and incorporate your parenthetical comments into the main body
> > of your post and I would be happy to post this to the newsgroup.
> >
>
> Your request to strike these is so as not to draw attention to your flawed
> handling of my posting. You're now merely trying to protect yourself from
> the possible censure you have earned. I'm not out to get YOU. Don't get
> paranoid. It's policy that permits ANY moderator to do what you have that
> concerns me. I believe that policy, in context, is worthy of discussion,
> indeed, essential.
>
> Your request to include my parenthetical comments constitutes another request
> to obscure further the real issue. Your attempt to protect yourself at the
> cost of silencing me.
>
>
> > Dick Detweiler
> > co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai
> > rdetweil@primenet.com
> >
>
> --
> FG
> Rochester, Michigan USA
>
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From: "Rick Boatright" <boatright@cjnetworks.com>
Organization: Topeka Business Computers
To: John Haukness <haukness@tenet.edu>, @moa.net
Date: Sun, 10 Nov 1996 15:19:43 -0600
Subject: Re: Reviewing and Freedom of Speech and Thought
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Dear John, (and copied to Frederick)
I have already asked Frederick to decrease the quote in the message
he sent to the newsgroup and to which you are replying. Could we,
perhaps let you two continue this in private email, or perhaps you
both would like to prepare new summeries of your positions for the
newsgroup? These messages with their extremely lenthy quoted
context violate the signal-to-noise ratio that the newsgroup
generally strives for.
Rick Boatright
co-moderator
soc.religion.bahai
Date: Sun, 10 Nov 1996 11:18:02 -0600 (CST)
From: John Haukness <haukness@tenet.edu>
To: FG <@moa.net>
Cc: soc-religion-bahai@uunet.uu.net
Subject: Re: Reviewing and Freedom of Speech and Thought
On Sun, 10 Nov 1996, FG wrote:
> John Haukness wrote:
> >
> > Dear Friends: One can see me as anti-whatever they want. The writings of
> > the Guardian make it clear to me that the american separation of Church
> > and state is based on fear and will fade away.
>
> It's based on fear of the harsh realities of historical experience--often
> bloody. The Guardian is more nuanced.
And now we live in the Day that will not be followed by nite! Also, we
as much historical episodes of bood baths as a result of secular
behaviors so do you want also to separate the secular from the
secular based on using the same logic? have> > As far as equating
> > Religion and state as one, being common anti intellectual sentiment, I am
> > familiar with a long list of Baha'i's arguing this, many who have
> > published far more than I have- I wish people would start studying Shoghi
> > Effendi with an open mind, and Abdul Baha's statements on education.
> >
> > Of course my friends William and John Hatcher have put this issue to
> > rest, safe ground, as with their publishing record, it is hard to call
> > them anti-intellectual. From Shoghi Effendi: "As the Baha'i
> > Administrative Order rapidly expands throughout the world it behooves
> > everyone associated with it to familiarize himself with its principles
> > to understand its import and to put its precepts into practice. The
> > divinely ordained institutions of the Local Spriityal Assembly operates
> > at the first levels of human society and is the basic administrative unit
> > of Bahaullah's World Order." So how are you going to separate religion
> > from Bahaullah's World Order, an Order, Bahaullah has placed the state in?
> >
>
> I made no such suggestion.
> The suggestion of your post was that Western secularism's separation
of church and state was good, I assummed you were applying that it still
is necessary.
> Well, John, you sure know how to ignore unpleasant facts and dispense with
> 400 years of religious and social history triumphantly.
> As I have said, there is no conclusive evidence that the separation of
church and state have provided the security you are attributing, for
the>past 400 years there are as many wars, forced famines and the like
among church against church and state against state, Likewise being
ignored are all the successful ventures of cooperation the past 400
years of religion and state; but regardless, that was then and now
is now. What stikes me, is that with keen insight, (I would shure like
to hear from the readers who already have noticed the following) one
can begin to see the faint glimmers, that secular society and religious
society are beginning to come upon, what the Hatcher's so elequantly
wrote about, that religion is inseparable from science, they are married
interwoven in the foundation. (I am not saying there are not appropriate
manmade separations, in man's need for efficiency and specialization
one needs to make artificial separations all the time, but if you look
at Shoghi Effendi's writings on the Assemblies and Houses of Justice,
and Abdul Baha's on schools, you can clearly see, that at the foundation
level, religion and state are complimentary, and that the Local House of
Justice, and Baha'i School are the foundation institutions of the New
World Order state.
All the best! > >
> > > Your post seems to me to be ladened with the anti-intellectualism that
> > > has become characteristic of the thinking of many Baha'is. Your
> > > conclusions don't appear to me to be supported by the Baha'i Writings.
> > >
> > > Given modern religious history, since the 1600s really, Western
> > > secularism has quite rightly that the separation of religion from
> > > the state is in everyone's best interest.
> > >
> > > The Baha'i Faith has yet sufficiently to prove otherwise.
> > >
>
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Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 18:03:34 -0600 (CST)
From: John Haukness <haukness@tenet.edu>
To: Rick Boatright <boatright@cjnetworks.com>
cc: @moa.net
Subject: Re: Reviewing and Freedom of Speech and Thought
In-Reply-To: <199611102107.PAA10562@topeka.cjnetworks.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.91.961112180053.2015E-100000@gaston.tenet.edu>
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Dear Rick: After reviewing my message I find my tone and objectivity, is
quite more temperate and reserved than many other posts. I find
soc.religion's moderating policy to lean towards the left ideology.
On Sun, 10 Nov 1996, Rick Boatright wrote:
> Dear John, (and copied to Frederick)
>
> I have already asked Frederick to decrease the quote in the message
> he sent to the newsgroup and to which you are replying. Could we,
> perhaps let you two continue this in private email, or perhaps you
> both would like to prepare new summeries of your positions for the
> newsgroup? These messages with their extremely lenthy quoted
> context violate the signal-to-noise ratio that the newsgroup
> generally strives for.
>
> Rick Boatright
> co-moderator
> soc.religion.bahai
>
>
> Date: Sun, 10 Nov 1996 11:18:02 -0600 (CST)
> From: John Haukness <haukness@tenet.edu>
> To: FG <@moa.net>
> Cc: soc-religion-bahai@uunet.uu.net
> Subject: Re: Reviewing and Freedom of Speech and Thought
>
>
>
> On Sun, 10 Nov 1996, FG wrote:
>
> > John Haukness wrote:
> > >
> > > Dear Friends: One can see me as anti-whatever they want. The writings of
> > > the Guardian make it clear to me that the american separation of Church
> > > and state is based on fear and will fade away.
> >
> > It's based on fear of the harsh realities of historical experience--often
> > bloody. The Guardian is more nuanced.
>
> And now we live in the Day that will not be followed by nite! Also, we
> as much historical episodes of bood baths as a result of secular
> behaviors so do you want also to separate the secular from the
> secular based on using the same logic? have> > As far as equating
> > > Religion and state as one, being common anti intellectual sentiment, I am
> > > familiar with a long list of Baha'i's arguing this, many who have
> > > published far more than I have- I wish people would start studying Shoghi
> > > Effendi with an open mind, and Abdul Baha's statements on education.
> > >
> > > Of course my friends William and John Hatcher have put this issue to
> > > rest, safe ground, as with their publishing record, it is hard to call
> > > them anti-intellectual. From Shoghi Effendi: "As the Baha'i
> > > Administrative Order rapidly expands throughout the world it behooves
> > > everyone associated with it to familiarize himself with its principles
> > > to understand its import and to put its precepts into practice. The
> > > divinely ordained institutions of the Local Spriityal Assembly operates
> > > at the first levels of human society and is the basic administrative unit
> > > of Bahaullah's World Order." So how are you going to separate religion
> > > from Bahaullah's World Order, an Order, Bahaullah has placed the state in?
> > >
> >
> > I made no such suggestion.
> > The suggestion of your post was that Western secularism's separation
> of church and state was good, I assummed you were applying that it still
> is necessary.
>
>
>
> > Well, John, you sure know how to ignore unpleasant facts and dispense with
> > 400 years of religious and social history triumphantly.
> > As I have said, there is no conclusive evidence that the separation of
> church and state have provided the security you are attributing, for
> the>past 400 years there are as many wars, forced famines and the like
> among church against church and state against state, Likewise being
> ignored are all the successful ventures of cooperation the past 400
> years of religion and state; but regardless, that was then and now
> is now. What stikes me, is that with keen insight, (I would shure like
> to hear from the readers who already have noticed the following) one
> can begin to see the faint glimmers, that secular society and religious
> society are beginning to come upon, what the Hatcher's so elequantly
> wrote about, that religion is inseparable from science, they are married
> interwoven in the foundation. (I am not saying there are not appropriate
> manmade separations, in man's need for efficiency and specialization
> one needs to make artificial separations all the time, but if you look
> at Shoghi Effendi's writings on the Assemblies and Houses of Justice,
> and Abdul Baha's on schools, you can clearly see, that at the foundation
> level, religion and state are complimentary, and that the Local House of
> Justice, and Baha'i School are the foundation institutions of the New
> World Order state.
> All the best! > >
> > > > Your post seems to me to be ladened with the anti-intellectualism that
> > > > has become characteristic of the thinking of many Baha'is. Your
> > > > conclusions don't appear to me to be supported by the Baha'i Writings.
> > > >
> > > > Given modern religious history, since the 1600s really, Western
> > > > secularism has quite rightly that the separation of religion from
> > > > the state is in everyone's best interest.
> > > >
> > > > The Baha'i Faith has yet sufficiently to prove otherwise.
> > > >
> >
>
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Message-ID: <3289BEEC.27DF@moa.net>
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 07:28:28 -0500
From: FG <@moa.net>
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To: John Haukness <haukness@tenet.edu>
CC: @MOA.net
Subject: Re: Reviewing and Freedom of Speech and Thought
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Another excellent example, apparently, of the abuse of your laughable little
powers as a "moderator." You're interfering too much in the CONTENT of the
message.
John Haukness wrote:
>
> Dear Rick: After reviewing my message I find my tone and objectivity, is
> quite more temperate and reserved than many other posts. I find
> soc.religion's moderating policy to lean towards the left ideology.
>
> On Sun, 10 Nov 1996, Rick Boatright wrote:
>
> > Dear John, (and copied to Frederick)
> >
> > I have already asked Frederick to decrease the quote in the message
> > he sent to the newsgroup and to which you are replying. Could we,
> > perhaps let you two continue this in private email, or perhaps you
> > both would like to prepare new summeries of your positions for the
> > newsgroup? These messages with their extremely lenthy quoted
> > context violate the signal-to-noise ratio that the newsgroup
> > generally strives for.
> >
> > Rick Boatright
> > co-moderator
> > soc.religion.bahai
> >
> >
> > Date: Sun, 10 Nov 1996 11:18:02 -0600 (CST)
> > From: John Haukness <haukness@tenet.edu>
> > To: FG <@moa.net>
> > Cc: soc-religion-bahai@uunet.uu.net
> > Subject: Re: Reviewing and Freedom of Speech and Thought
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sun, 10 Nov 1996, FG wrote:
> >
> > > John Haukness wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Dear Friends: One can see me as anti-whatever they want. The writings of
> > > > the Guardian make it clear to me that the american separation of Church
> > > > and state is based on fear and will fade away.
> > >
> > > It's based on fear of the harsh realities of historical experience--often
> > > bloody. The Guardian is more nuanced.
> >
> > And now we live in the Day that will not be followed by nite! Also, we
> > as much historical episodes of bood baths as a result of secular
> > behaviors so do you want also to separate the secular from the
> > secular based on using the same logic? have> > As far as equating
> > > > Religion and state as one, being common anti intellectual sentiment, I
am
> > > > familiar with a long list of Baha'i's arguing this, many who have
> > > > published far more than I have- I wish people would start studying
Shoghi
> > > > Effendi with an open mind, and Abdul Baha's statements on education.
> > > >
> > > > Of course my friends William and John Hatcher have put this issue to
> > > > rest, safe ground, as with their publishing record, it is hard to call
> > > > them anti-intellectual. From Shoghi Effendi: "As the Baha'i
> > > > Administrative Order rapidly expands throughout the world it behooves
> > > > everyone associated with it to familiarize himself with its principles
> > > > to understand its import and to put its precepts into practice. The
> > > > divinely ordained institutions of the Local Spriityal Assembly operates
> > > > at the first levels of human society and is the basic administrative
unit
> > > > of Bahaullah's World Order." So how are you going to separate religion
> > > > from Bahaullah's World Order, an Order, Bahaullah has placed the state
in?
> > > >
> > >
> > > I made no such suggestion.
> > > The suggestion of your post was that Western secularism's separation
> > of church and state was good, I assummed you were applying that it still
> > is necessary.
> >
> >
> >
> > > Well, John, you sure know how to ignore unpleasant facts and dispense with
> > > 400 years of religious and social history triumphantly.
> > > As I have said, there is no conclusive evidence that the separation of
> > church and state have provided the security you are attributing, for
> > the>past 400 years there are as many wars, forced famines and the like
> > among church against church and state against state, Likewise being
> > ignored are all the successful ventures of cooperation the past 400
> > years of religion and state; but regardless, that was then and now
> > is now. What stikes me, is that with keen insight, (I would shure like
> > to hear from the readers who already have noticed the following) one
> > can begin to see the faint glimmers, that secular society and religious
> > society are beginning to come upon, what the Hatcher's so elequantly
> > wrote about, that religion is inseparable from science, they are married
> > interwoven in the foundation. (I am not saying there are not appropriate
> > manmade separations, in man's need for efficiency and specialization
> > one needs to make artificial separations all the time, but if you look
> > at Shoghi Effendi's writings on the Assemblies and Houses of Justice,
> > and Abdul Baha's on schools, you can clearly see, that at the foundation
> > level, religion and state are complimentary, and that the Local House of
> > Justice, and Baha'i School are the foundation institutions of the New
> > World Order state.
> > All the best! > >
> > > > > Your post seems to me to be ladened with the anti-intellectualism that
> > > > > has become characteristic of the thinking of many Baha'is. Your
> > > > > conclusions don't appear to me to be supported by the Baha'i Writings.
> > > > >
> > > > > Given modern religious history, since the 1600s really, Western
> > > > > secularism has quite rightly that the separation of religion from
> > > > > the state is in everyone's best interest.
> > > > >
> > > > > The Baha'i Faith has yet sufficiently to prove otherwise.
> > > > >
> > >
> >
--
FG
Rochester, Michigan USA
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Comments: Authenticated sender is <boatright@mail.cjnetworks.com>
From: "Rick Boatright" <boatright@cjnetworks.com>
Organization: Topeka Busines Computers
To: FG <@moa.net>
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 10:14:01 -0600
Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned -- THANK YOU!
Reply-to: boatright@cjnetworks.com
Priority: normal
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Thanks. That was just posted to the net. I appriciate your patience
in working with the moderators on this.
Rick Boatright
co-moderator
soc.religion.bahai
--------------3E69366EFD
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Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 07:26:01 -0500
From: FG <@moa.net>
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To: boatright@cjnetworks.com
CC: @MOA.net
Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned -- THANK YOU!
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Rick Boatright wrote:
>
> Thanks. That was just posted to the net. I appriciate your patience
> in working with the moderators on this.
>
No patience at all. You and your cohorts are heavy-handed,
self-righeteous fascists who apparently believe God has touched you
with holy wisdom.
I feel nothing but contempt for Baha'is like you.
> Rick Boatright
> co-moderator
> soc.religion.bahai
--
FG
Rochester, Michigan USA
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Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 07:26:01 -0500
From: FG <@moa.net>
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Rick Boatright wrote:
>
> Thanks. That was just posted to the net. I appriciate your patience
> in working with the moderators on this.
>
No patience at all. You and your cohorts are heavy-handed,
self-righeteous fascists who apparently believe God has touched you
with holy wisdom.
I feel nothing but contempt for Baha'is like you.
> Rick Boatright
> co-moderator
> soc.religion.bahai
--
FG
Rochester, Michigan USA
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From: "Rick Boatright" <boatright@cjnetworks.com>
Organization: Topeka Business Computers
To: FG <@MOA.net>
Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 09:57:52 -0600
Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community
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Really nice message. Good work. Thanks for hanging in there with
us Frederick. I really appriciate it.
Rick Boatright
> To: soc-religion-bahai@uunet.uu.net
> From: FG <@MOA.net>
> Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community
> Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 09:10:16 -0500
> Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A.
> To: mac13@teleport.com
> Cc: @MOA.net
> mac13@teleport.com wrote:
> >
> > In article <"Yu8EZB.A.s9F.YwJjy"@bounty>,
> > FG <@moa.net> wrote:
> > >Cheshmak A Farhoumand wrote:
> > >> [clip]
> > >
> > With all due respect, the impression I have of previous
> > systems is a system of "hierarchy and
> > >authority that flows downward, entrapping many people into
> > actions and
> > systems imposed upon them from above.
> >
> > With all due respect, with what I am slowly learning about
> > the Baha'i Faith, much authority is dervied from an
> > hierarchy commencing at a very local level and then
> > ascending.
> >
>
> I don't believe your local level metaphor, if you will, here quite fits.
> The UHJ is not a local institution.... It's members are distant and
> unknown to most local Baha'is.
>
> [clip]
>
> > Perhaps those people who have long held within their grasp
> > the reins of the people governed and whose words were so
> > lofty and whose deeds were so shameful will wonder if a
> > system based on authority and heirarchy ascending from the
> > local level has any chance to work, given the elements with
> > which it is composed.
>
> "The elements with which it is composed": Nice phrase. Echoes Shoghi Effendi
> somewhere or other doesn't? This is the crux of my thinking.
>
> [clip]
>
> >
> > You state that
> > "Shoghi Effendi end The Promised Day is Come with the
> > word "power." He obviously spent his life developing a
> > system based on hierarchy and authority. To call these
> > things "old world" is inaccurate. To observe
> > that power can be abused in the Baha'i Faith is not "old
> > world."
> >
> > I must disagree with you that my personal opinion is that
> > Shoghi Effendi labored those years to implement the
> > structure set forth by Baha'u'llah and `Abdul-Baha.
>
> Of course I agree with you here by and large. However, that structure was none
> too detailed.... Shoghi Effendi's study at Oxford of political philosophy
> provided more than a little useful background knowledge. Obvious observation,
> if you will, for anyone who's actually studied political philosophy.
>
> He
> > found ways to give it expression that did NOT entail
> > the abuse of "hierarchy and authority" on a descending
> > mode being imposed upon many... my personal opinion is that
> > he found ways to implement a program to ensure that
> > authority derived from the Institutions and the Institutions
> > dervied authority initially from local levels...
>
> Perhaps you're right. Give concrete examples.
>
> that is
> > not "Old World Order".
>
> What are those "ways"? Can you list them? I would find specific examples of
them
> in practical application interesting....
>
> > I am sorry that one would be incredibly disillusioned with
> > the Baha'i Community. It is made up of humans, lots and
> > lots of humans who, as I have mentioned before, have come
> > with much baggage from the system in which many have lived
> > for years. They are trying: they are not isolating as some
> > organizations might... fearing contamination from an outside
> > world.
>
> You really don't address here the original issue from the person who wrote
> "incredibly disillusioned with the Baha'i Community." That wasn't me. Human?
> That's my point. You rush past it too quickly to my mind.
>
> "Isolating"? Baha'i communities, as I have experienced them for twenty years,
> often seem extremely isolated and isolating.... I have often wondered why.
> Any ideas?
>
> > Thanks for "listening" to my comments.
> > Good luck, and take care.
> >
> > ---Dennis
>
> --
> FG
> Rochester, Michigan USA
>
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From: FG <@moa.net>
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Rick Boatright wrote:
>
> Really nice message. Good work. Thanks for hanging in there with
> us Frederick. I really appriciate it.
>
> Rick Boatright
>
Frankly, I don't know what you mean here.
> > To: soc-religion-bahai@uunet.uu.net
> > From: FG <@MOA.net>
> > Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community
> > Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 09:10:16 -0500
> > Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A.
> > To: mac13@teleport.com
> > Cc: @MOA.net
>
> > mac13@teleport.com wrote:
> > >
> > > In article <"Yu8EZB.A.s9F.YwJjy"@bounty>,
> > > FG <@moa.net> wrote:
> > > >Cheshmak A Farhoumand wrote:
> > > >> [clip]
> > > >
> > > With all due respect, the impression I have of previous
> > > systems is a system of "hierarchy and
> > > >authority that flows downward, entrapping many people into
>
[cut]
--
FG
Rochester, Michigan USA
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From: "Rick Boatright" <boatright@cjnetworks.com>
Organization: Topeka Busines Computers
To: FG <@moa.net>
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 10:40:09 -0600
Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community
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Dear Frederick,
I was trying to say two unrelated things.
First, that was a really nice message. Well thought, cohesive, good
writing, I was trying to give you a compliment.
Second, I was expressing my gratitude that the conflict between you
and the moderators a couple of weeks ago did not result in your
leaving the newsgroup. I appriciate your continued participation.
Rick Boatright
> Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 08:04:15 -0500
> From: FG <@moa.net>
> To: boatright@cjnetworks.com
> Cc: @moa.net
> Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community
> Rick Boatright wrote:
> >
> > Really nice message. Good work. Thanks for hanging in there with
> > us Frederick. I really appriciate it.
> >
> > Rick Boatright
> >
>
> Frankly, I don't know what you mean here.
>
>
> > > To: soc-religion-bahai@uunet.uu.net
> > > From: FG <@MOA.net>
> > > Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community
> > > Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 09:10:16 -0500
> > > Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A.
> > > To: mac13@teleport.com
> > > Cc: @MOA.net
> >
> > > mac13@teleport.com wrote:
> > > >
> > > > In article <"Yu8EZB.A.s9F.YwJjy"@bounty>,
> > > > FG <@moa.net> wrote:
> > > > >Cheshmak A Farhoumand wrote:
> > > > >> [clip]
> > > > >
> > > > With all due respect, the impression I have of previous
> > > > systems is a system of "hierarchy and
> > > > >authority that flows downward, entrapping many people into
> >
>
> [cut]
>
> --
> FG
> Rochester, Michigan USA
>
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Message-ID: <32919B88.7907@moa.net>
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 06:35:36 -0500
From: FG <@moa.net>
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Rick Boatright wrote:
>
> Dear Frederick,
>
> I was trying to say two unrelated things.
>
> First, that was a really nice message. Well thought, cohesive, good
> writing, I was trying to give you a compliment.
>
I don't need nor want your unsolicted editorial comments BIG BROTHER.
I want the freedom to speak the conscience God has given me and the freedom
to be responded to by OTHERS' unconstrained consciences. Stay out of the
way.
> Second, I was expressing my gratitude that the conflict between you
> and the moderators a couple of weeks ago did not result in your
> leaving the newsgroup. I appriciate your continued participation.
>
I feel nothing but contempt for the way you and Richard Detweiler have
handled my postings. Make no mistake in that regard. Neither one of
you, or anybody, has the prescience to exercise such power and control
over others' consciences.
The abuse of your power is a proper subject for discussion on the
newsgroup.
> > Rick Boatright wrote:
> > >
> > > Really nice message. Good work. Thanks for hanging in there with
> > > us Frederick. I really appriciate it.
> > >
> > > Rick Boatright
> > >
> >
> > Frankly, I don't know what you mean here.
> >
> >
--
FG
Rochester, Michigan USA
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Path: ppp-pm01-dy-26.ouhub.moa.net
From: FG <@MOA.net>
Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai
Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 06:10:21 -0500
Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A.
Lines: 78
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Anne Furlong wrote:
>
> The reference to power probably helps poinpoint the difficulty some of
> the friends have here. The point is that in this Faith, for the first
> time in religious history, power and authority have been intentionally
> and effectively severed. The authority to make decisions, to legislate,
> to guide, rests with the elected institutions of the Faith. However,
> these institutions - and the individuals who make them up - have no power
> whatsoever.
"No power whatsoever": Utterly naive....
[clip]
>
> Why do people become disillusioned with the community? with individuals?
> Well, we all know people who, by force of personality, or because of
> defects of character and personality, receive, demand, or desire
> acquiescence from other individuals. But note: if such people do in fact
> poison a community, who ultimately must take the responsibility? Power
> is not theirs to command: it is ceded to them by those who have not the
> wisdom or the courage to recognise that what is being asked is both
> contrary to the Faith, and ultimately impossible to give.
>
Excellent point. A profound moral problem arises here. How can the individual
maintain the moral strength of character to resist abuse and manipulation when
power can be wielded in such a way as to undermine that very ability? To
discredit it. Ban it. Brand it as outlaw, heretic, disruptive, anti-social,
working against the realization, e.g., of the communist Kingdom of Freedom.
> Yes, impossible: for since in the Administrative order which is
> Baha'u'llah's gift to the world, power and authority are divided,
In theory, yes; in practice, I'm not convinced.
then the
> efforts of a few misguided individuals to bring power and authority
> together in their own persons; or to build up factions; or to do anything,
> in fact, which is contravenes the spirit and the reality of the Covenant,
> are doomed to failure. 'Abdul-Baha said that the ocean of the Covenant
> will surge and surge until it casts the bodies of the (spiritually) dead
> onto the shore. We cannot ultimately harm the progress of the Cause, but
> can cut ourselves off from the abundant share of the blessings which
> obedience to the Covenant brings to us.
>
> If we are disillusioned with the community we live in, then our response
> will either add to the problem or be the start of its eradication. The
> whole purpose of consultation is to allow the individual to exercise
> responsibility - his power - within the "unit of civilization".
What I am saying is that there are situations when it is not allowed. You're
too quick to leap over that fact for me.
We are
> all going to be responsible for our actions to Baha'u'llah when we pass
> from this earth; are we going to plead the immaturity of others as the
> reason for our failure to love?
>
Your dragging "love" into this confuses the issue.
> Baha'u'llah did more than despise tyranny; in his Administrative Order,
> He, as the Divine Physician, prescribed the effective and permanent remedy.
>
The point from the original post was in regard to the abuse of the remedy,
turning it into a cheap medicine show elixir. What then of the community
or individuals under that Tyranny?
> All the best,
>
> Anne Furlong
> St John's Newfoundland Canada
--
FG
Rochester, Michigan USA
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Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 06:24:13 -0500
From: FG <@moa.net>
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Anne Furlong wrote:
>
> The reference to power probably helps poinpoint the difficulty some of
> the friends have here. The point is that in this Faith, for the first
> time in religious history, power and authority have been intentionally
> and effectively severed. The authority to make decisions, to legislate,
> to guide, rests with the elected institutions of the Faith. However,
> these institutions - and the individuals who make them up - have no power
> whatsoever.
"No power whatsoever": Utterly naive....
[clip]
>
> Why do people become disillusioned with the community? with individuals?
> Well, we all know people who, by force of personality, or because of
> defects of character and personality, receive, demand, or desire
> acquiescence from other individuals. But note: if such people do in fact
> poison a community, who ultimately must take the responsibility? Power
> is not theirs to command: it is ceded to them by those who have not the
> wisdom or the courage to recognise that what is being asked is both
> contrary to the Faith, and ultimately impossible to give.
>
Excellent point. A profound moral problem arises here. How can the individual
maintain the moral strength of character to resist abuse and manipulation when
power can be wielded in such a way as to undermine that very ability? To
discredit it. Ban it. Brand it as outlaw, heretic, disruptive, anti-social,
working against the realization, e.g., of the communist Kingdom of Freedom.
> Yes, impossible: for since in the Administrative order which is
> Baha'u'llah's gift to the world, power and authority are divided,
In theory, yes; in practice, I'm not convinced.
then the
> efforts of a few misguided individuals to bring power and authority
> together in their own persons; or to build up factions; or to do anything,
> in fact, which is contravenes the spirit and the reality of the Covenant,
> are doomed to failure. 'Abdul-Baha said that the ocean of the Covenant
> will surge and surge until it casts the bodies of the (spiritually) dead
> onto the shore. We cannot ultimately harm the progress of the Cause, but
> can cut ourselves off from the abundant share of the blessings which
> obedience to the Covenant brings to us.
>
> If we are disillusioned with the community we live in, then our response
> will either add to the problem or be the start of its eradication. The
> whole purpose of consultation is to allow the individual to exercise
> responsibility - his power - within the "unit of civilization".
What I am saying is that there are situations when it is not allowed. You're
too quick to leap over that fact for me.
We are
> all going to be responsible for our actions to Baha'u'llah when we pass
> from this earth; are we going to plead the immaturity of others as the
> reason for our failure to love?
>
Your dragging "love" into this confuses the issue.
> Baha'u'llah did more than despise tyranny; in his Administrative Order,
> He, as the Divine Physician, prescribed the effective and permanent remedy.
>
The point from the original post was in regard to the abuse of the remedy,
turning it into a cheap medicine show elixir. What then of the community
or individuals under that Tyranny?
> All the best,
>
> Anne Furlong
> St John's Newfoundland Canada
--
FG
Rochester, Michigan USA
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From: "Richard C. Detweiler" <rdetweil@primenet.com>
Message-Id: <199611191434.HAA23362@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community
To: @MOA.net (FG)
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 07:34:10 -0700 (MST)
Cc: srb-mods@bcca.org
In-Reply-To: <32918F7B.76FA@moa.net> from "FG" at Nov 19, 96
05:44:11
am
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Dear Mr. Glaysher,
Thank you for your submission to soc.religion.bahai.
As your post contains sarcastic comments and argues with the
moderation of the group in a demeaning and disrespectful manner,
it will not be posted. These issues are also peripheral to
the purpose of the newsgroup in any case.
If you are seeking full vent to your frustrations, I suggest
news.admin or talk.religion.misc on the Internet as the first
is appropriate and the other is unmoderated. This newsgroup,
however, is for discussion of the Baha'i Faith in an atmosphere
of respect and free from topical tangents of all kinds.
Thank you for participating,
Dick Detweiler
rdetweil@primenet.com
Co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai
================ Begin submitted post =========================
> To: soc-religion-bahai@uunet.uu.net
> Path: ppp-pm01-dy-26.ouhub.moa.net
> From: FG <@MOA.net>
> Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai
> Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community
> Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 05:44:11 -0500
> Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A.
> Lines: 68
> Message-ID: <32918F7B.76FA@moa.net>
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> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I)
> To: Sian Smith <sms@mfe.govt.nz>
> CC: @MOA.net
>
> Sian Smith wrote:
> >
> > In article <"-ER8GC.A.gTH.UGkiy"@bounty>, FG
<@moa.net> says:
> > >
> >
> > [snip extracts from previous messages about being disillusioned]
> >
> > >> : >As you know, the Bahai Faith doesn't have priests, preachers, or any
> > >> : >individuals who have the responsibility of telling people what to do,
unlike
> > >> : >churches. However, from my experience I've discovered associating with
> > >> : >"Bahais" and not expecting them to play the roles of surrogate priests
and
> > >> : > surrogate parish to be incredibly wishful and foolish thinking.
> > >>
> > >> : Since the Baha'i Community does not have a paid clergy, every Baha'is
is
> > >> : to perform the service that the clergy of previous religions performed.
We
> > >> : are each to study the Holy Writings, and to teach and deepen others in
the
> > >> : Faith. It may be hard for one of a traditional religious background
that
> > >> : does not encourage study to take responsibility for one's own spiritual
> > >> : growth, but we all have to struggle to change our shortcomings.
> > >>
> > >
> > >Miguel, you utterly miss Karl's well-taken point here again. It's the abuse
of
> > >the responsibility that is the crux of his observation. Power corrupts.
> > >And it can corrupt Baha'is as well as Christians, Muslims, Nazis, etc.
> >
> > Excuse my ignorance, but WHO in the Baha'i Faith has any "power"? I've
> > never met anyone in the Faith who has power of any kind (i.e: power in
> > the sense that they can exert some kind of binding influence over
> > another person).
>
> I'll give you an example: The "moderators" of this newsgroup. They've
> censored a number of messages I've tried to post during the last few weeks.
> They have the "power" to determine what you and everyone else OUT THERE
> reads.... It that's not control and power to SHAPE thought and opinion what
> is it?
>
> Maybe the previous writer was referring to some other
> > kind of power - in which case I would be grateful to receive a
> > "definition", so to speak, of this power and how it compares to the
> > "definition" I had in mind which, in my own humble opinion, is the sort
> > of power which is contained in the assertion "power corrupts".
> >
>
> The "moderators" power is corrupting and inhibiting the exchange of ideas
> on this newsgroup. When I attempted to bring this to the attention of
> contributors by posting a message to this effect earlier, I was told
>
> THOU SHALT NOT QUESTION THE AUTHORITY AND POWER OF THE
"MODERATORS."
> Kitab-i-Oppression, page 999.
>
> > The only person who has any kind of power over my spiritual development
> > is ME. I cannot abdicate that responsibility to someone else.
> >
>
> There's a sense in which you're right. But secular and religious history
> is wracked with the abuse of POWER and the devastating results of it....
> It always began in little ways.... A little at a time.... People shrugged....
> Let's not make ways.... Let's build UNITY!
>
> > Loving greetings
> >
> > Sian Smith
> > Wellington
> > New Zealand
>
> --
> FG
> Rochester, Michigan USA
>
================ End submitted post ===========================
--------------3E69366EFD
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Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 08:53:22 -0500
From: FG <@moa.net>
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To: "Richard C. Detweiler" <rdetweil@primenet.com>
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Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community
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Richard C. Detweiler wrote:
>
> Dear Mr. Glaysher,
>
> Thank you for your submission to soc.religion.bahai.
>
> As your post contains sarcastic comments and argues with the
> moderation of the group in a demeaning and disrespectful manner,
> it will not be posted. These issues are also peripheral to
> the purpose of the newsgroup in any case.
>
> If you are seeking full vent to your frustrations, I suggest
> news.admin or talk.religion.misc on the Internet as the first
> is appropriate and the other is unmoderated. This newsgroup,
> however, is for discussion of the Baha'i Faith in an atmosphere
> of respect and free from topical tangents of all kinds.
>
> Thank you for participating,
>
> Dick Detweiler
> rdetweil@primenet.com
> Co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai
>
I'm not at all surprised Richardt.... Fascists and totalitarians have always
sought to conceal and manipulate reality.
> ================ Begin submitted post =========================
>
> > To: soc-religion-bahai@uunet.uu.net
> > Path: ppp-pm01-dy-26.ouhub.moa.net
> > From: FG <@MOA.net>
> > Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai
> > Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community
> > Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 05:44:11 -0500
> > Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A.
> > Lines: 68
> > Message-ID: <32918F7B.76FA@moa.net>
> > References: <"-ER8GC.A.gTH.UGkiy"@bounty>
<56qogd$rii@nnrp1.news.primenet.com>
> > NNTP-Posting-Host: zeus.moa.net
> > Mime-Version: 1.0
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> > X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I)
> > To: Sian Smith <sms@mfe.govt.nz>
> > CC: @MOA.net
> >
> > Sian Smith wrote:
> > >
> > > In article <"-ER8GC.A.gTH.UGkiy"@bounty>, FG
<@moa.net> says:
> > > >
> > >
> > > [snip extracts from previous messages about being disillusioned]
> > >
> > > >> : >As you know, the Bahai Faith doesn't have priests, preachers, or any
> > > >> : >individuals who have the responsibility of telling people what to
do, unlike
> > > >> : >churches. However, from my experience I've discovered associating
with
> > > >> : >"Bahais" and not expecting them to play the roles of surrogate
priests and
> > > >> : > surrogate parish to be incredibly wishful and foolish thinking.
> > > >>
> > > >> : Since the Baha'i Community does not have a paid clergy, every Baha'is
is
> > > >> : to perform the service that the clergy of previous religions
performed. We
> > > >> : are each to study the Holy Writings, and to teach and deepen others
in the
> > > >> : Faith. It may be hard for one of a traditional religious background
that
> > > >> : does not encourage study to take responsibility for one's own
spiritual
> > > >> : growth, but we all have to struggle to change our shortcomings.
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >Miguel, you utterly miss Karl's well-taken point here again. It's the
abuse of
> > > >the responsibility that is the crux of his observation. Power corrupts.
> > > >And it can corrupt Baha'is as well as Christians, Muslims, Nazis, etc.
> > >
> > > Excuse my ignorance, but WHO in the Baha'i Faith has any "power"? I've
> > > never met anyone in the Faith who has power of any kind (i.e: power in
> > > the sense that they can exert some kind of binding influence over
> > > another person).
> >
> > I'll give you an example: The "moderators" of this newsgroup. They've
> > censored a number of messages I've tried to post during the last few weeks.
> > They have the "power" to determine what you and everyone else OUT THERE
> > reads.... It that's not control and power to SHAPE thought and opinion what
> > is it?
> >
> > Maybe the previous writer was referring to some other
> > > kind of power - in which case I would be grateful to receive a
> > > "definition", so to speak, of this power and how it compares to the
> > > "definition" I had in mind which, in my own humble opinion, is the sort
> > > of power which is contained in the assertion "power corrupts".
> > >
> >
> > The "moderators" power is corrupting and inhibiting the exchange of ideas
> > on this newsgroup. When I attempted to bring this to the attention of
> > contributors by posting a message to this effect earlier, I was told
> >
> > THOU SHALT NOT QUESTION THE AUTHORITY AND POWER OF THE
"MODERATORS."
> > Kitab-i-Oppression, page 999.
> >
> > > The only person who has any kind of power over my spiritual development
> > > is ME. I cannot abdicate that responsibility to someone else.
> > >
> >
> > There's a sense in which you're right. But secular and religious history
> > is wracked with the abuse of POWER and the devastating results of it....
> > It always began in little ways.... A little at a time.... People
shrugged....
> > Let's not make waves.... Let's build UNITY!
> >
> > > Loving greetings
> > >
> > > Sian Smith
> > > Wellington
> > > New Zealand
> >
> > --
> > FG
> > Rochester, Michigan USA
> >
>
> ================ End submitted post ===========================
--
FG
Rochester, Michigan USA
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Message-ID: <32932348.5E7E@moa.net>
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 10:27:04 -0500
From: FG <@moa.net>
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MIME-Version: 1.0
To: "Richard C. Detweiler" <rdetweil@primenet.com>
CC: @MOA.net
Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community
References: <199611191434.HAA23362@primenet.com>
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Richard C. Detweiler wrote:
>
> Dear Mr. Glaysher,
>
> Thank you for your submission to soc.religion.bahai.
>
> As your post contains sarcastic comments and argues with the
> moderation of the group in a demeaning and disrespectful manner,
> it will not be posted. These issues are also peripheral to
> the purpose of the newsgroup in any case.
>
False. They go to the heart of the matter, i.e., how it functions.
> If you are seeking full vent to your frustrations, I suggest
> news.admin or talk.religion.misc on the Internet as the first
> is appropriate and the other is unmoderated.
"Vent your frustrations" is in the same category as my "Utterly naive."
I don't seek to deprive you of your conscience that apparently believes
that. You may say what you wish. It won't hurt my little feelings.
I believe you're again manipulating discussion in a dictatorial, oppressive
manner unjustified by anything in the Baha'i Writings which you apparently
cloak your shameless deeds in.
This newsgroup,
> however, is for discussion of the Baha'i Faith in an atmosphere
> of respect and free from topical tangents of all kinds.
>
The abuse of the conscience of a member of the Baha'i Faith and, apparently
regular practice of distortion and censorship is not a suitable topic?
I can understand why you wouldn't wish to have anyone else know....
> Thank you for participating,
>
I'm not participating at all. You are self-righteous depriving me of that.
You are also depriving others of hearing or disagreeing with my opinions.
> Dick Detweiler
> rdetweil@primenet.com
> Co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai
>
> ================ Begin submitted post =========================
>
> > To: soc-religion-bahai@uunet.uu.net
> > Path: ppp-pm01-dy-26.ouhub.moa.net
> > From: FG <@MOA.net>
> > Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai
> > Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community
> > Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 05:44:11 -0500
> > Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A.
> > Lines: 68
> > Message-ID: <32918F7B.76FA@moa.net>
> > References: <"-ER8GC.A.gTH.UGkiy"@bounty>
<56qogd$rii@nnrp1.news.primenet.com>
> > NNTP-Posting-Host: zeus.moa.net
> > Mime-Version: 1.0
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> > X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I)
> > To: Sian Smith <sms@mfe.govt.nz>
> > CC: @MOA.net
> >
> > Sian Smith wrote:
> > >
> > > In article <"-ER8GC.A.gTH.UGkiy"@bounty>, FG
<@moa.net> says:
> > > >
> > >
> > > [snip extracts from previous messages about being disillusioned]
> > >
> > > >> : >As you know, the Bahai Faith doesn't have priests, preachers, or any
> > > >> : >individuals who have the responsibility of telling people what to
do, unlike
> > > >> : >churches. However, from my experience I've discovered associating
with
> > > >> : >"Bahais" and not expecting them to play the roles of surrogate
priests and
> > > >> : > surrogate parish to be incredibly wishful and foolish thinking.
> > > >>
> > > >> : Since the Baha'i Community does not have a paid clergy, every Baha'is
is
> > > >> : to perform the service that the clergy of previous religions
performed. We
> > > >> : are each to study the Holy Writings, and to teach and deepen others
in the
> > > >> : Faith. It may be hard for one of a traditional religious background
that
> > > >> : does not encourage study to take responsibility for one's own
spiritual
> > > >> : growth, but we all have to struggle to change our shortcomings.
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >Miguel, you utterly miss Karl's well-taken point here again. It's the
abuse of
> > > >the responsibility that is the crux of his observation. Power corrupts.
> > > >And it can corrupt Baha'is as well as Christians, Muslims, Nazis, etc.
> > >
> > > Excuse my ignorance, but WHO in the Baha'i Faith has any "power"? I've
> > > never met anyone in the Faith who has power of any kind (i.e: power in
> > > the sense that they can exert some kind of binding influence over
> > > another person).
> >
> > I'll give you an example: The "moderators" of this newsgroup. They've
> > censored a number of messages I've tried to post during the last few weeks.
> > They have the "power" to determine what you and everyone else OUT THERE
> > reads.... If that's not control and power to SHAPE thought and opinion what
> > is it?
> >
> > Maybe the previous writer was referring to some other
> > > kind of power - in which case I would be grateful to receive a
> > > "definition", so to speak, of this power and how it compares to the
> > > "definition" I had in mind which, in my own humble opinion, is the sort
> > > of power which is contained in the assertion "power corrupts".
> > >
> >
> > The "moderators" power is corrupting and inhibiting the exchange of ideas
> > on this newsgroup. When I attempted to bring this to the attention of
> > contributors by posting a message to this effect earlier, I was told
> >
> > THOU SHALT NOT QUESTION THE AUTHORITY AND POWER OF THE
"MODERATORS."
> > Kitab-i-Oppression, page 999.
> >
> > > The only person who has any kind of power over my spiritual development
> > > is ME. I cannot abdicate that responsibility to someone else.
> > >
> >
> > There's a sense in which you're right. But secular and religious history
> > is wracked with the abuse of POWER and the devastating results of it....
> > It always began in little ways.... A little at a time.... People
shrugged....
> > Let's not make ways.... Let's build UNITY!
> >
> > > Loving greetings
> > >
> > > Sian Smith
> > > Wellington
> > > New Zealand
> >
> > --
> > FG
> > Rochester, Michigan USA
> >
> = End submitted post ===========================
YOU DEAR CENSORS have shown your true colors once again.
--
FG
Rochester, Michigan USA
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From: "Richard C. Detweiler" <rdetweil@primenet.com>
Message-Id: <199611191443.HAA24131@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community
To: @moa.net (FG)
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 07:43:07 -0700 (MST)
Cc: srb-mods@bcca.org
In-Reply-To: <3291959D.7D9C@moa.net> from "FG" at Nov 19, 96
06:10:21
am
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Dear Mr. Glaysher,
Thank you for your submission to soc.religion.bahai.
I ask that you strike the comment "utterly naive" as an attack
on the previous poster. If you would like to say you disagree,
that would be acceptable.
Also, your sarcastic comments in the following paragraph:
> Excellent point. A profound moral problem arises here. How can the individual
> maintain the moral strength of character to resist abuse and manipulation when
> power can be wielded in such a way as to undermine that very ability? To
> discredit it. Ban it. Brand it as outlaw, heretic, disruptive, anti-social,
> working against the realization, e.g., of the communist Kingdom of Freedom.
If you would turn this into a meaningful criticism based on actual events
than the readership could evaluate and enter into a dialog with you on these
events.
Again, let me make it clear that if you have a grievance with the Faith,
you are free to air it here, but it must be the facts and your reasons for
the grievance presented and not belittling insults, broad stereotypes, and
blatant sarcasm.
Thank you for participating,
Dick Detweiler
rdetweil@primenet.com
Co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai
================ Begin submitted post =========================
> To: soc-religion-bahai@uunet.uu.net
> Path: ppp-pm01-dy-26.ouhub.moa.net
> From: FG <@moa.net>
> Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai
> Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community
> Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 06:10:21 -0500
> Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A.
> Lines: 78
> Message-ID: <3291959D.7D9C@moa.net>
> References: <"-ER8GC.A.gTH.UGkiy"@bounty> <56qoi9$rmd@nnrp1.news.primenet.com>
> NNTP-Posting-Host: zeus.moa.net
> Mime-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I)
> To: Anne Furlong <afurlong@cs.mun.ca>
> CC: @moa.net
>
> Anne Furlong wrote:
> >
> > The reference to power probably helps poinpoint the difficulty some of
> > the friends have here. The point is that in this Faith, for the first
> > time in religious history, power and authority have been intentionally
> > and effectively severed. The authority to make decisions, to legislate,
> > to guide, rests with the elected institutions of the Faith. However,
> > these institutions - and the individuals who make them up - have no power
> > whatsoever.
>
> "No power whatsoever": Utterly naive....
>
> [clip]
>
> >
> > Why do people become disillusioned with the community? with individuals?
> > Well, we all know people who, by force of personality, or because of
> > defects of character and personality, receive, demand, or desire
> > acquiescence from other individuals. But note: if such people do in fact
> > poison a community, who ultimately must take the responsibility? Power
> > is not theirs to command: it is ceded to them by those who have not the
> > wisdom or the courage to recognise that what is being asked is both
> > contrary to the Faith, and ultimately impossible to give.
> >
>
> Excellent point. A profound moral problem arises here. How can the individual
> maintain the moral strength of character to resist abuse and manipulation when
> power can be wielded in such a way as to undermine that very ability? To
> discredit it. Ban it. Brand it as outlaw, heretic, disruptive, anti-social,
> working against the realization, e.g., of the communist Kingdom of Freedom.
>
> > Yes, impossible: for since in the Administrative order which is
> > Baha'u'llah's gift to the world, power and authority are divided,
>
> In theory, yes; in practice, I'm not convinced.
>
> then the
> > efforts of a few misguided individuals to bring power and authority
> > together in their own persons; or to build up factions; or to do anything,
> > in fact, which is contravenes the spirit and the reality of the Covenant,
> > are doomed to failure. 'Abdul-Baha said that the ocean of the Covenant
> > will surge and surge until it casts the bodies of the (spiritually) dead
> > onto the shore. We cannot ultimately harm the progress of the Cause, but
> > can cut ourselves off from the abundant share of the blessings which
> > obedience to the Covenant brings to us.
> >
> > If we are disillusioned with the community we live in, then our response
> > will either add to the problem or be the start of its eradication. The
> > whole purpose of consultation is to allow the individual to exercise
> > responsibility - his power - within the "unit of civilization".
>
> What I am saying is that there are situations when it is not allowed. You're
> too quick to leap over that fact for me.
>
> We are
> > all going to be responsible for our actions to Baha'u'llah when we pass
> > from this earth; are we going to plead the immaturity of others as the
> > reason for our failure to love?
> >
>
> Your dragging "love" into this confuses the issue.
>
> > Baha'u'llah did more than despise tyranny; in his Administrative Order,
> > He, as the Divine Physician, prescribed the effective and permanent remedy.
> >
>
> The point from the original post was in regard to the abuse of the remedy,
> turning it into a cheap medicine show elixir. What then of the community
> or individuals under that Tyranny?
>
> > All the best,
> >
> > Anne Furlong
> > St John's Newfoundland Canada
>
> --
> FG
> Rochester, Michigan USA
>
================ End submitted post ===========================
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Message-ID: <3293247F.2340@moa.net>
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 10:32:15 -0500
From: FG <@moa.net>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: "Richard C. Detweiler" <rdetweil@primenet.com>
CC: @MOA.net
Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community
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Further response-- Your characterization of my comments as sarcastic
is ludicrous. One may not be sarcastic in the Baha'i Faith? And you
are too determine is toooooo SARCASTIC? Oh God, what a farce!
Since you apparently don't understand the passage in question, I'm
supposed to water in down for YOUR ignorance! I'm talking about the
totalitarianism of the SOVIET UNION which you dangerously come close
to.
Again, I request that you post my message or pass it on to someone
else who is not as fanatical as you.
Richard C. Detweiler wrote:
>
> Dear Mr. Glaysher,
>
> Thank you for your submission to soc.religion.bahai.
>
> I ask that you strike the comment "utterly naive" as an attack
> on the previous poster. If you would like to say you disagree,
> that would be acceptable.
>
> Also, your sarcastic comments in the following paragraph:
>
> > Excellent point. A profound moral problem arises here. How can the
individual
> > maintain the moral strength of character to resist abuse and manipulation
when
> > power can be wielded in such a way as to undermine that very ability? To
> > discredit it. Ban it. Brand it as outlaw, heretic, disruptive, anti-social,
> > working against the realization, e.g., of the communist Kingdom of Freedom.
>
> If you would turn this into a meaningful criticism based on actual events
> than the readership could evaluate and enter into a dialog with you on these
> events.
>
> Again, let me make it clear that if you have a grievance with the Faith,
> you are free to air it here, but it must be the facts and your reasons for
> the grievance presented and not belittling insults, broad stereotypes, and
> blatant sarcasm.
>
> Thank you for participating,
>
> Dick Detweiler
> rdetweil@primenet.com
> Co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai
>
> ================ Begin submitted post =========================
>
> > To: soc-religion-bahai@uunet.uu.net
> > Path: ppp-pm01-dy-26.ouhub.moa.net
> > From: FG <@moa.net>
> > Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai
> > Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community
> > Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 06:10:21 -0500
> > Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A.
> > Lines: 78
> > Message-ID: <3291959D.7D9C@moa.net>
> > References: <"-ER8GC.A.gTH.UGkiy"@bounty>
<56qoi9$rmd@nnrp1.news.primenet.com>
> > NNTP-Posting-Host: zeus.moa.net
> > Mime-Version: 1.0
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> > X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I)
> > To: Anne Furlong <afurlong@cs.mun.ca>
> > CC: @moa.net
> >
> > Anne Furlong wrote:
> > >
> > > The reference to power probably helps poinpoint the difficulty some of
> > > the friends have here. The point is that in this Faith, for the first
> > > time in religious history, power and authority have been intentionally
> > > and effectively severed. The authority to make decisions, to legislate,
> > > to guide, rests with the elected institutions of the Faith. However,
> > > these institutions - and the individuals who make them up - have no power
> > > whatsoever.
> >
> > "No power whatsoever": Utterly naive....
> >
> > [clip]
> >
> > >
> > > Why do people become disillusioned with the community? with individuals?
> > > Well, we all know people who, by force of personality, or because of
> > > defects of character and personality, receive, demand, or desire
> > > acquiescence from other individuals. But note: if such people do in fact
> > > poison a community, who ultimately must take the responsibility? Power
> > > is not theirs to command: it is ceded to them by those who have not the
> > > wisdom or the courage to recognise that what is being asked is both
> > > contrary to the Faith, and ultimately impossible to give.
> > >
> >
> > Excellent point. A profound moral problem arises here. How can the
individual
> > maintain the moral strength of character to resist abuse and manipulation
when
> > power can be wielded in such a way as to undermine that very ability? To
> > discredit it. Ban it. Brand it as outlaw, heretic, disruptive, anti-social,
> > working against the realization, e.g., of the communist Kingdom of Freedom.
> >
> > > Yes, impossible: for since in the Administrative order which is
> > > Baha'u'llah's gift to the world, power and authority are divided,
> >
> > In theory, yes; in practice, I'm not convinced.
> >
> > then the
> > > efforts of a few misguided individuals to bring power and authority
> > > together in their own persons; or to build up factions; or to do anything,
> > > in fact, which is contravenes the spirit and the reality of the Covenant,
> > > are doomed to failure. 'Abdul-Baha said that the ocean of the Covenant
> > > will surge and surge until it casts the bodies of the (spiritually) dead
> > > onto the shore. We cannot ultimately harm the progress of the Cause, but
> > > can cut ourselves off from the abundant share of the blessings which
> > > obedience to the Covenant brings to us.
> > >
> > > If we are disillusioned with the community we live in, then our response
> > > will either add to the problem or be the start of its eradication. The
> > > whole purpose of consultation is to allow the individual to exercise
> > > responsibility - his power - within the "unit of civilization".
> >
> > What I am saying is that there are situations when it is not allowed. You're
> > too quick to leap over that fact for me.
> >
> > We are
> > > all going to be responsible for our actions to Baha'u'llah when we pass
> > > from this earth; are we going to plead the immaturity of others as the
> > > reason for our failure to love?
> > >
> >
> > Your dragging "love" into this confuses the issue.
> >
> > > Baha'u'llah did more than despise tyranny; in his Administrative Order,
> > > He, as the Divine Physician, prescribed the effective and permanent
remedy.
> > >
> >
> > The point from the original post was in regard to the abuse of the remedy,
> > turning it into a cheap medicine show elixir. What then of the community
> > or individuals under that Tyranny?
> >
> > > All the best,
> > >
> > > Anne Furlong
> > > St John's Newfoundland Canada
> >
> > --
> > FG
> > Rochester, Michigan USA
> >
>
> ================ End submitted post ===========================
--
FG
Rochester, Michigan USA
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From: "Richard C. Detweiler" <rdetweil@primenet.com>
Message-Id: <199611201644.JAA14736@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community
To: @moa.net (FG)
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 09:44:26 -0700 (MST)
Cc: srb-mods@bcca.org
In-Reply-To: <3293247F.2340@moa.net> from "FG" at Nov 20, 96
10:32:15 am
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FG writes:
>
> Further response-- Your characterization of my comments as sarcastic
> is ludicrous. One may not be sarcastic in the Baha'i Faith? And you
> are too determine is toooooo SARCASTIC? Oh God, what a farce!
>
> Since you apparently don't understand the passage in question, I'm
> supposed to water in down for YOUR ignorance! I'm talking about the
> totalitarianism of the SOVIET UNION which you dangerously come close
> to.
>
> Again, I request that you post my message or pass it on to someone
> else who is not as fanatical as you.
>
Dear Mr. Glaysher,
Thank you for giving me the opportunity to correct some misunderstandings
you have about the newsgroup soc.religion.bahai. It appears you have
the impression that the newsgroup has some kind of official standing
within the Baha'i Faith and that the moderators are somehow part of
the Baha'i Administration. This is not the case. While the moderators
try to use Baha'i principles of consultation and at times request
guidence from Institutions of the Faith, we are not in any way connected
with the Administrative Order. We are simply volunteers who try to
apply the charter of the newsgroup to the submissions that come before
us.
The charter of the newsgroup states that "the Newsgroup will be subject
to standards of Baha'i consultation whose salient features include frank
yet respectful statement of views and the concerted, open-minded search
for truth." It is on this statement in the charter and this statement
alone that I have rejected some of your posts. In doing so, I am making
no judgement as to your fitness or standing as a Baha'i.
Let me stress again, the moderators stand ready to post your views
to the newsgroup no matter what they are as long as they meet these
simple criteria:
- they address aspects of the Baha'i Faith
- they are respectful in tone
- they are not personal attacks
- they are not ads or solicitations
Your posts have at times fallen short in the 2nd and 3rd category. Each
time I have suggested how you can get your views heard on the newsgroup.
It is completely up to you whether you want to cooperate and live by these
rules. If you insist on a right to belittle and be disrespectful with those
you engage in discussion, I will fully support your right to do so either
by e-mail, on another newsgroup, by phone, mail, or in person. But if you
want to participate in this newsgroup, you will have to abide by the charter
and the moderators.
Dick Detweiler
co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai
--------------3E69366EFD
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Message-ID: <32935722.7DC@moa.net>
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 14:08:18 -0500
From: FG <@moa.net>
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To: "Richard C. Detweiler" <rdetweil@primenet.com>
CC: @MOA.net
Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community
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Richard C. Detweiler wrote:
>
> FG writes:
> >
> > Further response-- Your characterization of my comments as sarcastic
> > is ludicrous. One may not be sarcastic in the Baha'i Faith? And you
> > are too determine is toooooo SARCASTIC? Oh God, what a farce!
> >
> > Since you apparently don't understand the passage in question, I'm
> > supposed to water in down for YOUR ignorance! I'm talking about the
> > totalitarianism of the SOVIET UNION which you dangerously come close
> > to.
> >
> > Again, I request that you post my message or pass it on to someone
> > else who is not as fanatical as you.
> >
>
> Dear Mr. Glaysher,
>
> Thank you for giving me the opportunity to correct some misunderstandings
> you have about the newsgroup soc.religion.bahai. It appears you have
> the impression that the newsgroup has some kind of official standing
> within the Baha'i Faith and that the moderators are somehow part of
> the Baha'i Administration. This is not the case. While the moderators
> try to use Baha'i principles of consultation and at times request
> guidence from Institutions of the Faith, we are not in any way connected
> with the Administrative Order. We are simply volunteers who try to
> apply the charter of the newsgroup to the submissions that come before
> us.
>
> The charter of the newsgroup states that "the Newsgroup will be subject
> to standards of Baha'i consultation whose salient features include frank
> yet respectful statement of views and the concerted, open-minded search
> for truth." It is on this statement in the charter and this statement
> alone that I have rejected some of your posts.
I don't believe this is true. "Utterly naive" refers to the idea, not to
its author as an insult. You're the one who has construed that way. I can't
even understand what could possibly be WRONG with your objection to the
second passage in the post in question.
Your attempt to hide behind the newsgroup charter strikes me as a mere
stratagem to conceal what you're actually doing: CENSORING.
In doing so, I am making
> no judgement as to your fitness or standing as a Baha'i.
>
> Let me stress again, the moderators stand ready to post your views
> to the newsgroup no matter what they are as long as they meet these
> simple criteria:
>
> - they address aspects of the Baha'i Faith
> - they are respectful in tone
> - they are not personal attacks
> - they are not ads or solicitations
>
> Your posts have at times fallen short in the 2nd and 3rd category. Each
> time I have suggested how you can get your views heard on the newsgroup.
> It is completely up to you whether you want to cooperate and live by these
> rules. If you insist on a right to belittle and be disrespectful with those
> you engage in discussion, I will fully support your right to do so either
> by e-mail, on another newsgroup, by phone, mail, or in person. But if you
> want to participate in this newsgroup, you will have to abide by the charter
> and the moderators.
>
> Dick Detweiler
> co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai
--
FG
Rochester, Michigan USA
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From: "Richard C. Detweiler" <rdetweil@primenet.com>
Message-Id: <199611202214.PAA26784@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community
To: @moa.net (FG)
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 15:14:43 -0700 (MST)
Cc: srb-mods@bcca.org
In-Reply-To: <32935722.7DC@moa.net> from "FG" at Nov 20, 96
02:08:18 pm
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23]
Content-Type: text
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> >
> > The charter of the newsgroup states that "the Newsgroup will be subject
> > to standards of Baha'i consultation whose salient features include frank
> > yet respectful statement of views and the concerted, open-minded search
> > for truth." It is on this statement in the charter and this statement
> > alone that I have rejected some of your posts.
>
> I don't believe this is true. "Utterly naive" refers to the idea, not to
> its author as an insult. You're the one who has construed that way. I can't
> even understand what could possibly be WRONG with your objection to the
> second passage in the post in question.
>
Thank you for pointing this out - I hadn't thought of it like that. But I
hope you can see that if I (and the other mods) can be confused on this
point, it will probably be the case with many in the readership as well.
Our tendency is to err on the side of not posting things when they may be
misinterpretted by the readership as being attacks or insults. That way,
the respectful tone is maintained. Remember that the readership includes
people from all backgrounds and cultures. I have been surprised many times
when seemingly innocuous comments have offended. I try to make sure the
chance of this is kept to a minimum.
And, if I may, don't you think "I believe you are being naive because..."
makes your points easier for other to accept and continue to engage you
rather than a brusque "Utterly naive"? Please think about that. I
assume your reason for being here is to share your viewpoint with others.
> Your attempt to hide behind the newsgroup charter strikes me as a mere
> stratagem to conceal what you're actually doing: CENSORING.
>
Once again, Mr Glaysher - my job is not to supress ideas but to make sure
those ideas are presented in a respectful manner conducive to frank and
unfettered consultation.
I continue to await the chance to post your thoughts in the submittals in
question when they are appropriate for posting to the newsgroup.
Dick Detweiler
co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai
--------------3E69366EFD
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Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 10:07:29 -0500
From: FG <@moa.net>
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MIME-Version: 1.0
To: "Richard C. Detweiler" <rdetweil@primenet.com>
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Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community
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Richard C. Detweiler wrote:
>
> > >
> > > The charter of the newsgroup states that "the Newsgroup will be subject
> > > to standards of Baha'i consultation whose salient features include frank
> > > yet respectful statement of views and the concerted, open-minded search
> > > for truth." It is on this statement in the charter and this statement
> > > alone that I have rejected some of your posts.
> >
> > I don't believe this is true. "Utterly naive" refers to the idea, not to
> > its author as an insult. You're the one who has construed that way. I can't
> > even understand what could possibly be WRONG with your objection to the
> > second passage in the post in question.
> >
>
> Thank you for pointing this out - I hadn't thought of it like that.
Then what's YOUR problem. Post it or suppress it.
But I
> hope you can see that if I (and the other mods) can be confused on this
> point, it will probably be the case with many in the readership as well.
You're assumption is that OTHERS will be as imperceptive as you. And hence
you BAN ME!
> Our tendency is to err on the side of not posting things when they may be
> misinterpretted by the readership as being attacks or insults.
Even after admitting the ERROR is on your part? Not logical. You're trying
to justify your heavy-handed will to BAN.
That way,
> the respectful tone is maintained.
There is nothing disrespectful about either passage YOU'VE questioned.
Remember that the readership includes
> people from all backgrounds and cultures.
Irrelevant justification. You're groping for excuses.
I have been surprised many times
> when seemingly innocuous comments have offended.
Nothing would then ever get posted in your scenario. Unless it meets
your prejudices.
I try to make sure the
> chance of this is kept to a minimum.
>
I don't know that. You're suppression to posting ratio would be required
to make that determination; it would have to be independently confirmed.
> And, if I may, don't you think "I believe you are being naive because..."
> makes your points easier for other to accept and continue to engage you
> rather than a brusque "Utterly naive"? Please think about that. I
> assume your reason for being here is to share your viewpoint with others.
>
You sound like a schoolmarm. A self-righteous, prudish old bag. What gives
you the right? God's charter? It doesn't come from Him.
> > Your attempt to hide behind the newsgroup charter strikes me as a mere
> > stratagem to conceal what you're actually doing: CENSORING.
> >
>
> Once again, Mr Glaysher - my job is not to supress ideas but to make sure
> those ideas are presented in a respectful manner conducive to frank and
> unfettered consultation.
>
You're completely fettering my consultation. But that's okay. You possess
the prescience to know better. Again, you're groping for justification of
your suppressing the presentation of my views to others.
> I continue to await the chance to post your thoughts in the submittals in
> question when they are appropriate for posting to the newsgroup.
>
Mr. Detweiler, you appear to me to be completely shameless and drunk on your
little power to muzzle people who don't echo your opinions.
> Dick Detweiler
> co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai
Again, I ask you to post my message since as you acknowledge above its about
IDEAS.
--
FG
Rochester, Michigan USA
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From: "Richard C. Detweiler" <rdetweil@primenet.com>
Message-Id: <199611211540.IAA09540@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community
To: @moa.net (FG)
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 08:40:37 -0700 (MST)
In-Reply-To: <32947031.2ADA@moa.net> from "FG" at Nov 21, 96
10:07:29
am
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Dear Mr. Glaysher,
When you make the modifications asked or post something which meets the
charter of the newsgroup, I will be happy to post it.
Dick Detweiler
co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai
> From @moa.net Thu Nov 21 08:05:55 1996
> Received: from atlas.moa.net (atlas.moa.net [198.111.46.21]) by primenet.com
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> Thu, 21 Nov 1996 10:00:43 -0500
> Message-ID: <32947031.2ADA@moa.net>
> Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 10:07:29 -0500
> From: FG <@moa.net>
> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I)
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> To: "Richard C. Detweiler" <rdetweil@primenet.com>
> CC: @moa.net
> Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community
> References: <199611202214.PAA26784@primenet.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
> Richard C. Detweiler wrote:
> >
> > > >
> > > > The charter of the newsgroup states that "the Newsgroup will be subject
> > > > to standards of Baha'i consultation whose salient features include frank
> > > > yet respectful statement of views and the concerted, open-minded search
> > > > for truth." It is on this statement in the charter and this statement
> > > > alone that I have rejected some of your posts.
> > >
> > > I don't believe this is true. "Utterly naive" refers to the idea, not to
> > > its author as an insult. You're the one who has construed that way. I
can't
> > > even understand what could possibly be WRONG with your objection to the
> > > second passage in the post in question.
> > >
> >
> > Thank you for pointing this out - I hadn't thought of it like that.
>
> Then what's YOUR problem. Post it or suppress it.
>
> But I
> > hope you can see that if I (and the other mods) can be confused on this
> > point, it will probably be the case with many in the readership as well.
>
> You're assumption is that OTHERS will be as imperceptive as you. And hence
> you BAN ME!
>
> > Our tendency is to err on the side of not posting things when they may be
> > misinterpretted by the readership as being attacks or insults.
>
> Even after admitting the ERROR is on your part? Not logical. You're trying
> to justify your heavy-handed will to BAN.
>
> That way,
> > the respectful tone is maintained.
>
> There is nothing disrespectful about either passage YOU'VE questioned.
>
> Remember that the readership includes
> > people from all backgrounds and cultures.
>
> Irrelevant justification. You're groping for excuses.
>
> I have been surprised many times
> > when seemingly innocuous comments have offended.
>
> Nothing would then ever get posted in your scenario. Unless it meets
> your prejudices.
>
> I try to make sure the
> > chance of this is kept to a minimum.
> >
>
> I don't know that. You're suppression to posting ratio would be required
> to make that determination; it would have to be independently confirmed.
>
> > And, if I may, don't you think "I believe you are being naive because..."
> > makes your points easier for other to accept and continue to engage you
> > rather than a brusque "Utterly naive"? Please think about that. I
> > assume your reason for being here is to share your viewpoint with others.
> >
>
> You sound like a schoolmarm. A self-righteous, prudish old bag. What gives
> you the right? God's charter? It doesn't come from Him.
>
> > > Your attempt to hide behind the newsgroup charter strikes me as a mere
> > > stratagem to conceal what you're actually doing: CENSORING.
> > >
> >
> > Once again, Mr Glaysher - my job is not to supress ideas but to make sure
> > those ideas are presented in a respectful manner conducive to frank and
> > unfettered consultation.
> >
>
> You're completely fettering my consultation. But that's okay. You possess
> the prescience to know better. Again, you're groping for justification of
> your suppressing the presentation of my views to others.
>
> > I continue to await the chance to post your thoughts in the submittals in
> > question when they are appropriate for posting to the newsgroup.
> >
>
> Mr. Detweiler, you appear to me to be completely shameless and drunk on your
> little power to muzzle people who don't echo your opinions.
>
> > Dick Detweiler
> > co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai
>
> Again, I ask you to post my message since as you acknowledge above its about
> IDEAS.
>
> --
> FG
> Rochester, Michigan USA
>
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Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 07:41:44 -0500
From: FG <@moa.net>
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To: "Richard C. Detweiler" <rdetweil@primenet.com>
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Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community
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What I wrote meets the charter of the newsgroup and the "modifications"
you want are unnecessary and unjustifiable. You yourself
acknowledged your request for "modification" was based on your own
misreading and misunderstanding of the post.
God save us if the Baha'i Faith comes down to people like you
"protecting" us....
I ask you again to post it or pass it on to someone else who's
more rational than you.
Richard C. Detweiler wrote:
>
> Dear Mr. Glaysher,
>
> When you make the modifications asked or post something which meets the
> charter of the newsgroup, I will be happy to post it.
>
> Dick Detweiler
> co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai
>
> > From @moa.net Thu Nov 21 08:05:55 1996
> > Received: from atlas.moa.net (atlas.moa.net [198.111.46.21]) by primenet.com
(8.8.3/8.8.3)
with SMTP id IAA07420 for
<rdetweil@primenet.com>; Thu, 21 Nov 199
> > Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.57) by atlas.moa.net
> > (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id <B0000614358@atlas.moa.net>;
> > Thu, 21 Nov 1996 10:00:43 -0500
> > Message-ID: <32947031.2ADA@moa.net>
> > Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 10:07:29 -0500
> > From: FG <@moa.net>
> > X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I)
> > MIME-Version: 1.0
> > To: "Richard C. Detweiler" <rdetweil@primenet.com>
> > CC: @moa.net
> > Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community
> > References: <199611202214.PAA26784@primenet.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> >
> > Richard C. Detweiler wrote:
> > >
> > > > >
> > > > > The charter of the newsgroup states that "the Newsgroup will be
subject
> > > > > to standards of Baha'i consultation whose salient features include
frank
> > > > > yet respectful statement of views and the concerted, open-minded
search
> > > > > for truth." It is on this statement in the charter and this statement
> > > > > alone that I have rejected some of your posts.
> > > >
> > > > I don't believe this is true. "Utterly naive" refers to the idea, not to
> > > > its author as an insult. You're the one who has construed that way. I
can't
> > > > even understand what could possibly be WRONG with your objection to the
> > > > second passage in the post in question.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Thank you for pointing this out - I hadn't thought of it like that.
> >
> > Then what's YOUR problem. Post it or suppress it.
> >
> > But I
> > > hope you can see that if I (and the other mods) can be confused on this
> > > point, it will probably be the case with many in the readership as well.
> >
> > You're assumption is that OTHERS will be as imperceptive as you. And hence
> > you BAN ME!
> >
> > > Our tendency is to err on the side of not posting things when they may be
> > > misinterpretted by the readership as being attacks or insults.
> >
> > Even after admitting the ERROR is on your part? Not logical. You're trying
> > to justify your heavy-handed will to BAN.
> >
> > That way,
> > > the respectful tone is maintained.
> >
> > There is nothing disrespectful about either passage YOU'VE questioned.
> >
> > Remember that the readership includes
> > > people from all backgrounds and cultures.
> >
> > Irrelevant justification. You're groping for excuses.
> >
> > I have been surprised many times
> > > when seemingly innocuous comments have offended.
> >
> > Nothing would then ever get posted in your scenario. Unless it meets
> > your prejudices.
> >
> > I try to make sure the
> > > chance of this is kept to a minimum.
> > >
> >
> > I don't know that. You're suppression to posting ratio would be required
> > to make that determination; it would have to be independently confirmed.
> >
> > > And, if I may, don't you think "I believe you are being naive because..."
> > > makes your points easier for other to accept and continue to engage you
> > > rather than a brusque "Utterly naive"? Please think about that. I
> > > assume your reason for being here is to share your viewpoint with others.
> > >
> >
> > You sound like a schoolmarm. A self-righteous, prudish old bag. What gives
> > you the right? God's charter? It doesn't come from Him.
> >
> > > > Your attempt to hide behind the newsgroup charter strikes me as a mere
> > > > stratagem to conceal what you're actually doing: CENSORING.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Once again, Mr Glaysher - my job is not to supress ideas but to make sure
> > > those ideas are presented in a respectful manner conducive to frank and
> > > unfettered consultation.
> > >
> >
> > You're completely fettering my consultation. But that's okay. You possess
> > the prescience to know better. Again, you're groping for justification of
> > your suppressing the presentation of my views to others.
> >
> > > I continue to await the chance to post your thoughts in the submittals in
> > > question when they are appropriate for posting to the newsgroup.
> > >
> >
> > Mr. Detweiler, you appear to me to be completely shameless and drunk on your
> > little power to muzzle people who don't echo your opinions.
> >
> > > Dick Detweiler
> > > co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai
> >
> > Again, I ask you to post my message since as you acknowledge above its about
> > IDEAS.
> >
> > --
> > FG
> > Rochester, Michigan USA
> >
--
FG
Rochester, Michigan USA
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Path: ppp-pm01-dy-29.ouhub.moa.net
From: FG <@MOA.net>
Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai
Subject: Re: The Integrity of Bahai Marriage (revised)
Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 09:45:16 -0500
Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A.
Lines: 53
Message-ID: <328F24FC.253@moa.net>
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To: karl1971@aol.com
CC: @MOA.net
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karl1971@aol.com wrote:
> [clip]
> The believers of Baha'u'llah have a Faith of integrity. Unlike the world
> that's falling apart around us, the ones who who believe in Baha'u'llah
> make love, not war.
>
> One of the most important ways we do this is by fulfilling a legitimate
> quest to marry, always confident each and everyone of us has the potential
> to be a partner of a beautiful spiritual match made in heaven.
>
> In a Bahai Marriage:
>
> We seek nothing less than a partner with patience, who believes in dreams,
> justice, miracles, and aspirations who will spend every one of his or her
> most physically intimate moments with one and only one for the rest of his
> or her life.
>
> We seek nothing less than a world where every father and mother is
> completely satisfied with who they have for a son-in-law or
> daughter-in-law.
>
> We seek nothing less than a fellow beauty of the opposite sex who respects
> his or her body and doesn't smoke dope or drink booze or have some
> loathsome addiction.
>
> We seek nothing less than someone who always had high standards of
> justice, integrity, dignity, and morality, and has always been sensitive
> and intelligent, even having been raised among sick people and having gone
> through hell in a handbasket.
>
> We seek nothing less than beautiful love making experiences with standards
> of integrity that free us from the shackles of a promiscuous world.
>
> We seek nothing less than a world full of pairs of men and women of good
> taste who legitimately receive and satisfy each other's desires for
> sensual affection.
>
>
>
> -- sincerely
>
> -- Karl
Karl, man to man, you need to get married! Let me give you a little unsolicited
advice, if you don't mind. Don't choose one of these half-dead Baha'i women, the
self-righteous zealot type. Find a real woman with some blood flowing through
her
veins....
--
FG
Rochester, Michigan USA
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From: "Richard C. Detweiler" <rdetweil@primenet.com>
Message-Id: <199611171607.JAA22964@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: The Integrity of Bahai Marriage (revised)
To: @MOA.net (FG)
Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 09:07:30 -0700 (MST)
In-Reply-To: <328F24FC.253@moa.net> from "FG" at Nov 17, 96
09:45:16 am
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23]
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Not suitable for the group. Tell hi mto take it to e-mail.
Dick D.
> From news@news2.acs.oakland.edu Sun Nov 17 07:43:51 1996
> Received: from bcca.org (root@bounty.bcca.org [208.133.44.40]) by primenet.com
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1996
07:43:50 -0700 (MST)
> Received: from relay6.UU.NET by bcca.org with smtp
> (Smail3.1.29.1 #3) id m0vP8Rl-0008esC; Sun, 17 Nov 96 09:43 EST
> Received: from news2.acs.oakland.edu by relay6.UU.NET with ESMTP
> (peer crosschecked as: news2.acs.oakland.edu [141.210.10.152])
> id QQbqfq06145; Sun, 17 Nov 1996 09:43:44 -0500 (EST)
> Received: (from news@localhost) by news2.acs.oakland.edu (8.7.6/8.7.4) id
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17 Nov 1996 09:43:51 -0500
> To: soc-religion-bahai@uunet.uu.net
> Path: ppp-pm01-dy-29.ouhub.moa.net
> From: FG <@MOA.net>
> Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai
> Subject: Re: The Integrity of Bahai Marriage (revised)
> Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 09:45:16 -0500
> Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A.
> Lines: 53
> Message-ID: <328F24FC.253@moa.net>
> References: <"uiWV9.A.DUF.dSkjy"@bounty>
> NNTP-Posting-Host: zeus.moa.net
> Mime-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I)
> To: karl1971@aol.com
> CC: @MOA.net
>
> karl1971@aol.com wrote:
> > [clip]
>
> > The believers of Baha'u'llah have a Faith of integrity. Unlike the world
> > that's falling apart around us, the ones who who believe in Baha'u'llah
> > make love, not war.
> >
> > One of the most important ways we do this is by fulfilling a legitimate
> > quest to marry, always confident each and everyone of us has the potential
> > to be a partner of a beautiful spiritual match made in heaven.
> >
> > In a Bahai Marriage:
> >
> > We seek nothing less than a partner with patience, who believes in dreams,
> > justice, miracles, and aspirations who will spend every one of his or her
> > most physically intimate moments with one and only one for the rest of his
> > or her life.
> >
> > We seek nothing less than a world where every father and mother is
> > completely satisfied with who they have for a son-in-law or
> > daughter-in-law.
> >
> > We seek nothing less than a fellow beauty of the opposite sex who respects
> > his or her body and doesn't smoke dope or drink booze or have some
> > loathsome addiction.
> >
> > We seek nothing less than someone who always had high standards of
> > justice, integrity, dignity, and morality, and has always been sensitive
> > and intelligent, even having been raised among sick people and having gone
> > through hell in a handbasket.
> >
> > We seek nothing less than beautiful love making experiences with standards
> > of integrity that free us from the shackles of a promiscuous world.
> >
> > We seek nothing less than a world full of pairs of men and women of good
> > taste who legitimately receive and satisfy each other's desires for
> > sensual affection.
> >
> >
> >
> > -- sincerely
> >
> > -- Karl
>
>
> Karl, man to man, you need to get married! Let me give you a little
unsolicited
> advice, if you don't mind. Don't choose one of these half-dead Baha'i women,
the
> self-righteous zealot type. Find a real woman with some blood flowing through
her
> veins....
>
> --
> FG
> Rochester, Michigan USA
>
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Message-ID: <32905FF7.25F8@moa.net>
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 08:09:11 -0500
From: FG <@moa.net>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: "Richard C. Detweiler" <rdetweil@primenet.com>
CC: @MOA.net
Subject: Re: The Integrity of Bahai Marriage (revised)
References: <199611171607.JAA22964@primenet.com>
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Richard C. Detweiler wrote:
>
> Not suitable for the group. Tell hi mto take it to e-mail.
>
> Dick D.
>
Dick, I mean this in all seriousness. You're a fascist pig. I'd say that to
your face, fellow....
> > From news@news2.acs.oakland.edu Sun Nov 17 07:43:51 1996
> > Received: from bcca.org (root@bounty.bcca.org [208.133.44.40]) by
primenet.com
(8.8.2/8.8.2) with SMTP id HAA12476 for <rdetweil@primenet.com>; Sun, 17 Nov 1
> > Received: from relay6.UU.NET by bcca.org with smtp
> > (Smail3.1.29.1 #3) id m0vP8Rl-0008esC; Sun, 17 Nov 96 09:43 EST
> > Received: from news2.acs.oakland.edu by relay6.UU.NET with ESMTP
> > (peer crosschecked as: news2.acs.oakland.edu [141.210.10.152])
> > id QQbqfq06145; Sun, 17 Nov 1996 09:43:44 -0500 (EST)
> > Received: (from news@localhost) by news2.acs.oakland.edu (8.7.6/8.7.4) id
JAA19072; Sun,
17 Nov 1996 09:43:51 -0500
> > To: soc-religion-bahai@uunet.uu.net
> > Path: ppp-pm01-dy-29.ouhub.moa.net
> > From: FG <@MOA.net>
> > Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai
> > Subject: Re: The Integrity of Bahai Marriage (revised)
> > Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 09:45:16 -0500
> > Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A.
> > Lines: 53
> > Message-ID: <328F24FC.253@moa.net>
> > References: <"uiWV9.A.DUF.dSkjy"@bounty>
> > NNTP-Posting-Host: zeus.moa.net
> > Mime-Version: 1.0
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> > X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I)
> > To: karl1971@aol.com
> > CC: @MOA.net
> >
> > karl1971@aol.com wrote:
> > > [clip]
> >
> > > The believers of Baha'u'llah have a Faith of integrity. Unlike the world
> > > that's falling apart around us, the ones who who believe in Baha'u'llah
> > > make love, not war.
> > >
> > > One of the most important ways we do this is by fulfilling a legitimate
> > > quest to marry, always confident each and everyone of us has the potential
> > > to be a partner of a beautiful spiritual match made in heaven.
> > >
> > > In a Bahai Marriage:
> > >
> > > We seek nothing less than a partner with patience, who believes in dreams,
> > > justice, miracles, and aspirations who will spend every one of his or her
> > > most physically intimate moments with one and only one for the rest of his
> > > or her life.
> > >
> > > We seek nothing less than a world where every father and mother is
> > > completely satisfied with who they have for a son-in-law or
> > > daughter-in-law.
> > >
> > > We seek nothing less than a fellow beauty of the opposite sex who respects
> > > his or her body and doesn't smoke dope or drink booze or have some
> > > loathsome addiction.
> > >
> > > We seek nothing less than someone who always had high standards of
> > > justice, integrity, dignity, and morality, and has always been sensitive
> > > and intelligent, even having been raised among sick people and having gone
> > > through hell in a handbasket.
> > >
> > > We seek nothing less than beautiful love making experiences with standards
> > > of integrity that free us from the shackles of a promiscuous world.
> > >
> > > We seek nothing less than a world full of pairs of men and women of good
> > > taste who legitimately receive and satisfy each other's desires for
> > > sensual affection.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -- sincerely
> > >
> > > -- Karl
> >
> >
> > Karl, man to man, you need to get married! Let me give you a little
unsolicited
> > advice, if you don't mind. Don't choose one of these half-dead Baha'i women,
the
> > self-righteous zealot type. Find a real woman with some blood flowing
through her
> > veins....
> >
> > --
> > FG
> > Rochester, Michigan USA
> >
--
FG
Rochester, Michigan USA
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Comments: Authenticated sender is <boatright@mail.cjnetworks.com>
From: "Rick Boatright" <boatright@cjnetworks.com>
Organization: Topeka Business Computers
To: FG <@MOA.net>
Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 10:13:19 -0600
Subject: Re: The Integrity of Bahai Marriage (revised)
Reply-to: boatright@cjnetworks.com
CC: srb-mods@bcca.org
Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.31)
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Dear Frederick,
A real, true _question_. Did you mean for this to go out to the
newsgroup? The humor is apparent, the advice is probebly reasonable,
but I am forced to wonder if you really ment the post to go to the
newsgroup. It seems too susceptable to te kind of mis-interpretation
that gets rwars started..... I therefore suspect that you ment
this for private email.
Rick Boatright
co-moderator
soc.religion.bahai
> To: soc-religion-bahai@uunet.uu.net
> From: FG <@MOA.net>
> Subject: Re: The Integrity of Bahai Marriage (revised)
> Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 09:45:16 -0500
> Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A.
> To: karl1971@aol.com
> Cc: @MOA.net
> karl1971@aol.com wrote:
> > [clip]
>
> > The believers of Baha'u'llah have a Faith of integrity. Unlike the world
> > that's falling apart around us, the ones who who believe in Baha'u'llah
> > make love, not war.
> >
> > One of the most important ways we do this is by fulfilling a legitimate
> > quest to marry, always confident each and everyone of us has the potential
> > to be a partner of a beautiful spiritual match made in heaven.
> >
> > In a Bahai Marriage:
> >
> > We seek nothing less than a partner with patience, who believes in dreams,
> > justice, miracles, and aspirations who will spend every one of his or her
> > most physically intimate moments with one and only one for the rest of his
> > or her life.
> >
> > We seek nothing less than a world where every father and mother is
> > completely satisfied with who they have for a son-in-law or
> > daughter-in-law.
> >
> > We seek nothing less than a fellow beauty of the opposite sex who respects
> > his or her body and doesn't smoke dope or drink booze or have some
> > loathsome addiction.
> >
> > We seek nothing less than someone who always had high standards of
> > justice, integrity, dignity, and morality, and has always been sensitive
> > and intelligent, even having been raised among sick people and having gone
> > through hell in a handbasket.
> >
> > We seek nothing less than beautiful love making experiences with standards
> > of integrity that free us from the shackles of a promiscuous world.
> >
> > We seek nothing less than a world full of pairs of men and women of good
> > taste who legitimately receive and satisfy each other's desires for
> > sensual affection.
> >
> >
> >
> > -- sincerely
> >
> > -- Karl
>
>
> Karl, man to man, you need to get married! Let me give you a little
unsolicited
> advice, if you don't mind. Don't choose one of these half-dead Baha'i women,
the
> self-righteous zealot type. Find a real woman with some blood flowing through
her
> veins....
>
> --
> FG
> Rochester, Michigan USA
>
--------------3E69366EFD
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Mon, 18 Nov 1996 08:00:21 -0500
Message-ID: <32905F79.61AB@moa.net>
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 08:07:05 -0500
From: FG <@moa.net>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: boatright@cjnetworks.com
CC: @MOA.net
Subject: Re: The Integrity of Bahai Marriage (revised)
References: <199611171601.KAA08931@topeka.cjnetworks.com>
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Rick Boatright wrote:
>
> Dear Frederick,
>
> A real, true _question_. Did you mean for this to go out to the
> newsgroup? The humor is apparent, the advice is probebly reasonable,
> but I am forced to wonder if you really ment the post to go to the
> newsgroup. It seems too susceptable to te kind of mis-interpretation
> that gets rwars started..... I therefore suspect that you ment
> this for private email.
>
> Rick Boatright
> co-moderator
> soc.religion.bahai
>
You "suspect" incorrectly. I certainly intended for my message to be posted.
I'd appreciate if you'd act as a moderator and not a censor.
I find you're interfering in my communication offensive. Post it.
>
> To: soc-religion-bahai@uunet.uu.net
> > From: FG <@MOA.net>
> > Subject: Re: The Integrity of Bahai Marriage (revised)
> > Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 09:45:16 -0500
> > Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A.
> > To: karl1971@aol.com
> > Cc: @MOA.net
>
> > karl1971@aol.com wrote:
> > > [clip]
> >
> > > The believers of Baha'u'llah have a Faith of integrity. Unlike the world
> > > that's falling apart around us, the ones who who believe in Baha'u'llah
> > > make love, not war.
> > >
> > > One of the most important ways we do this is by fulfilling a legitimate
> > > quest to marry, always confident each and everyone of us has the potential
> > > to be a partner of a beautiful spiritual match made in heaven.
> > >
> > > In a Bahai Marriage:
> > >
> > > We seek nothing less than a partner with patience, who believes in dreams,
> > > justice, miracles, and aspirations who will spend every one of his or her
> > > most physically intimate moments with one and only one for the rest of his
> > > or her life.
> > >
> > > We seek nothing less than a world where every father and mother is
> > > completely satisfied with who they have for a son-in-law or
> > > daughter-in-law.
> > >
> > > We seek nothing less than a fellow beauty of the opposite sex who respects
> > > his or her body and doesn't smoke dope or drink booze or have some
> > > loathsome addiction.
> > >
> > > We seek nothing less than someone who always had high standards of
> > > justice, integrity, dignity, and morality, and has always been sensitive
> > > and intelligent, even having been raised among sick people and having gone
> > > through hell in a handbasket.
> > >
> > > We seek nothing less than beautiful love making experiences with standards
> > > of integrity that free us from the shackles of a promiscuous world.
> > >
> > > We seek nothing less than a world full of pairs of men and women of good
> > > taste who legitimately receive and satisfy each other's desires for
> > > sensual affection.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -- sincerely
> > >
> > > -- Karl
> >
> >
> > Karl, man to man, you need to get married! Let me give you a little
unsolicited
> > advice, if you don't mind. Don't choose one of these half-dead Baha'i women,
the
> > self-righteous zealot type. Find a real woman with some blood flowing
through her
> > veins....
> >
> > --
> > FG
> > Rochester, Michigan USA
> >
--
FG
Rochester, Michigan USA
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Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 18:04:54 -0500
From: KARL1971@aol.com
Message-ID: <961117180453_1083116951@emout01.mail.aol.com>
To: @moa.net
Subject: Re: The Integrity of Bahai Marriage (revised)
X-Mozilla-Status: 0015
In a message dated 96-11-17 09:44:24 EST, you write:
<< Karl, man to man, you need to get married! Let me give you a little
unsolicited
advice, if you don't mind. Don't choose one of these half-dead Baha'i
women, the
self-righteous zealot type. Find a real woman with some blood flowing
through her
veins....
>>
Do you know of any single ages 18-30?
Karl Lehman, Oregon, USA
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Mon, 18 Nov 1996 08:34:15 -0500
Message-ID: <3290676C.6301@moa.net>
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 08:41:00 -0500
From: FG <@moa.net>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: KARL1971@aol.com
CC: @MOA.net
Subject: Re: The Integrity of Bahai Marriage (revised)
References: <961117180453_1083116951@emout01.mail.aol.com>
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KARL1971@aol.com wrote:
>
> In a message dated 96-11-17 09:44:24 EST, you write:
>
> << Karl, man to man, you need to get married! Let me give you a little
> unsolicited
> advice, if you don't mind. Don't choose one of these half-dead Baha'i
> women, the
> self-righteous zealot type. Find a real woman with some blood flowing
> through her
> veins....
> >>
>
> Do you know of any single ages 18-30?
>
> Karl Lehman, Oregon, USA
Karl, unlike the fascists who "moderate" the newsgroup, you have a sense of
humor.
They've banned the post I sent you from the wires as not "suitable." Too many
fanatical feminist Baha'i broads out there would have their "feelings" hurt, I
guess....
--
FG
Rochester, Michigan USA
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Message-Id: <199611181657.KAA17797@topeka.cjnetworks.com>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <boatright@mail.cjnetworks.com>
From: "Rick Boatright" <boatright@cjnetworks.com>
Organization: Topeka Busines Computers
To: FG <@moa.net>
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 10:58:04 -0600
Subject: Re: The Integrity of Bahai Marriage (revised)
Reply-to: boatright@cjnetworks.com
Priority: normal
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And in your internal model, what is the difference between a
moderator and a censor? I asked a polite question. Did you intend
to post this? Lots of people post things they didn't intend to, and
we catch a lot of those. They are generally greatful. I didn't
complain that you characterize Baha'i women as bloodless. I probebly
should. I didn't complain that your comment was bigoted and
offensive to the vast majority of sexually active and spirited Baha'i
women, though I probebly should. Let them tell you that themselves.
I asked a polite question.
Lighten up.
Don't try to put a nazi mantle on my shoulders.
Rick Boatright
co-moderator
soc.religion.bahai
> Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 08:07:05 -0500
> From: FG <@moa.net>
> To: boatright@cjnetworks.com
> Cc: @moa.net
> Subject: Re: The Integrity of Bahai Marriage (revised)
> Rick Boatright wrote:
> >
> > Dear Frederick,
> >
> > A real, true _question_. Did you mean for this to go out to the
> > newsgroup? The humor is apparent, the advice is probebly reasonable,
> > but I am forced to wonder if you really ment the post to go to the
> > newsgroup. It seems too susceptable to te kind of mis-interpretation
> > that gets rwars started..... I therefore suspect that you ment
> > this for private email.
> >
> > Rick Boatright
> > co-moderator
> > soc.religion.bahai
> >
>
> You "suspect" incorrectly. I certainly intended for my message to be posted.
> I'd appreciate if you'd act as a moderator and not a censor.
>
> I find you're interfering in my communication offensive. Post it.
>
>
>
>
>
> >
> > To: soc-religion-bahai@uunet.uu.net
> > > From: FG <@MOA.net>
> > > Subject: Re: The Integrity of Bahai Marriage (revised)
> > > Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 09:45:16 -0500
> > > Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A.
> > > To: karl1971@aol.com
> > > Cc: @MOA.net
> >
> > > karl1971@aol.com wrote:
> > > > [clip]
> > >
> > > > The believers of Baha'u'llah have a Faith of integrity. Unlike the world
> > > > that's falling apart around us, the ones who who believe in Baha'u'llah
> > > > make love, not war.
> > > >
> > > > One of the most important ways we do this is by fulfilling a legitimate
> > > > quest to marry, always confident each and everyone of us has the
potential
> > > > to be a partner of a beautiful spiritual match made in heaven.
> > > >
> > > > In a Bahai Marriage:
> > > >
> > > > We seek nothing less than a partner with patience, who believes in
dreams,
> > > > justice, miracles, and aspirations who will spend every one of his or
her
> > > > most physically intimate moments with one and only one for the rest of
his
> > > > or her life.
> > > >
> > > > We seek nothing less than a world where every father and mother is
> > > > completely satisfied with who they have for a son-in-law or
> > > > daughter-in-law.
> > > >
> > > > We seek nothing less than a fellow beauty of the opposite sex who
respects
> > > > his or her body and doesn't smoke dope or drink booze or have some
> > > > loathsome addiction.
> > > >
> > > > We seek nothing less than someone who always had high standards of
> > > > justice, integrity, dignity, and morality, and has always been sensitive
> > > > and intelligent, even having been raised among sick people and having
gone
> > > > through hell in a handbasket.
> > > >
> > > > We seek nothing less than beautiful love making experiences with
standards
> > > > of integrity that free us from the shackles of a promiscuous world.
> > > >
> > > > We seek nothing less than a world full of pairs of men and women of good
> > > > taste who legitimately receive and satisfy each other's desires for
> > > > sensual affection.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > -- sincerely
> > > >
> > > > -- Karl
> > >
> > >
> > > Karl, man to man, you need to get married! Let me give you a little
unsolicited
> > > advice, if you don't mind. Don't choose one of these half-dead Baha'i
women, the
> > > self-righteous zealot type. Find a real woman with some blood flowing
through her
> > > veins....
> > >
> > > --
> > > FG
> > > Rochester, Michigan USA
> > >
>
> --
> FG
> Rochester, Michigan USA
>
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Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 06:47:54 -0500
From: FG <@moa.net>
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Rick Boatright wrote:
>
> And in your internal model, what is the difference between a
> moderator and a censor?
See previous message to you.
I asked a polite question. Did you intend
> to post this?
I sent it to the newsgroup, didn't I?
Lots of people post things they didn't intend to, and
> we catch a lot of those.
In such cases, you'd be properly assisting discussion.
They are generally greatful. I didn't
> complain that you characterize Baha'i women as bloodless.
Why should you? What business is it of yours? I'm not writing to you,
nor do I want to. Yet here I am stuck in a non-productive task dealing
with you and Richard....
I probebly
> should.
Why should you. Who the hell are you?
I didn't complain that your comment was bigoted and
> offensive to the vast majority of sexually active and spirited Baha'i
> women, though I probebly should.
A complaint you're entitled to make. In public. In response to me on the
Net. Not shunting anything YOU don't like off into obscurity.
Let them tell you that themselves.
>
I am saying the freedom for them to say so should be extended to them. You
are robbing them of that God-given freedom of expression of conscience.
> I asked a polite question.
>
> Lighten up.
>
Don't tell me to lighten up when you and Richard are perverting and screening
the
newsgroup self-righteous, prudishly suppressing opinions you don't like.
Again, who are you two to make such decisions? Do you really imagine God has
given you the ability to make such judgements?
> Don't try to put a nazi mantle on my shoulders.
>
It's already there, Rick. Wake up.
> Rick Boatright
> co-moderator
> soc.religion.bahai
>
>
--
FG
Rochester, Michigan USA
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From: FG <@MOA.net>
Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai
Subject: New Sacred Text Unveiled
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 08:43:04 -0500
Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A.
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Apparently, a new text has been discovered. Or perhaps it has always
been there. I, and others, apparently, missed it. It was difficult
to see. Alas, I, we, are so woefully human.... Blind and stumbling
through this morass....
The crucial passage in the newly discovered Revealed Word is this:
THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT SARCASM!
There are sensitive plants. We mustn't hurt their feelings.
I beg all of you to meditate profoundly on this koan. It has the
power to change the world....
--
FG
Rochester, Michigan USA
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Path: ppp-pm01-dy-11.ouhub.moa.net
From: FG <@MOA.net>
Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai
Subject: New Sacred Text Unveiled
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 08:18:05 -0500
Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A.
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Apparently, a new text has been discovered. Or perhaps it has always
been there. I, and others, apparently, missed it. It was difficult
to see. Alas, I, we, are so woefully human.... Blind and stumbling
through this morass....
The crucial passage in the newly discovered Revealed Word is this:
THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT SARCASM!
There are sensitive plants. We mustn't hurt their feelings.
I beg all of you to meditate profoundly on this koan. It has the
power to change the world....
--
FG
Rochester, Michigan USA
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From: "Richard C. Detweiler" <rdetweil@primenet.com>
Message-Id: <199611221548.IAA01560@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: New Sacred Text Unveiled
To: @MOA.net (FG)
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 08:48:14 -0700 (MST)
Cc: srb-mods@bcca.org
In-Reply-To: <3295A80D.1168@moa.net> from "FG" at Nov 22, 96
08:18:05
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Dear Mr. Glaysher,
Sorry for the inadvertent send on the last message. The following will
not be posted to the newsgroup as it is disrespectful in tone and sarcastic
in the extreme. As a Baha'i, perhaps you will get some value out of the
following excerpts from Baha'u'llah's Writings. I provide them as insight
into why the moderators enforce the policies they have in place.
"O ye beloved of the Lord! Commit not that which defileth the limpid
stream of love or destroyeth the sweet fragrance of friendship. By
the righteousness of the Lord! We were created to show love one to
another and not perversity and rancor. Take pride not in love for
yourselves but in love for your fellow-creatures. Glory not in love
for your country, but in love for all mankind."
- Baha'u'llah, Tablets of Baha'u'llah 138 (quoted in "Unrestrained
as the Wind", section on "Demonstrating love and fellowship", p 87 ).
"Say: Human utterance is an essence which aspireth to exert its
influence and needeth moderation. As to its influence, this is
conditional upon refinement which in turn is dependent upon hearts
which are detached and pure. As to its moderation, this hath to be
combined with tact and wisdom as prescribed in the Holy Scriptures
and Tablets. Meditate upon that which hath streamed forth from the
heaven of the Will of thy Lord, He Who is the Source of all grace,
that thou mayest grasp the intended meaning which is enshrined in
the sacred depths of the Holy Writings."
- Baha'u'llah, Tablet of Wisdom, Tablets of Baha'u'llah, p. 143
"For the tongue is a smouldering fire, and excess of speech
a deadly poison. Material fire consumeth the body, whereas
the fire of the tongue devoureth both heart and soul. The
force of the former lasteth but for a time, whilst the
effects of the latter endure a century."
- Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 193
Thank you for participating,
Dick Detweiler
rdetweil@primenet.com
Co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai
================ Begin submitted post =========================
> To: soc-religion-bahai@uunet.uu.net
> Path: ppp-pm01-dy-11.ouhub.moa.net
> From: FG <@MOA.net>
> Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai
> Subject: New Sacred Text Unveiled
> Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 08:18:05 -0500
> Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A.
> Lines: 20
> Message-ID: <3295A80D.1168@moa.net>
> References: <56vhv1$p1e@nnrp1.news.primenet.com>
> NNTP-Posting-Host: zeus.moa.net
> Mime-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I)
> CC: @MOA.net
>
> Apparently, a new text has been discovered. Or perhaps it has always
> been there. I, and others, apparently, missed it. It was difficult
> to see. Alas, I, we, are so woefully human.... Blind and stumbling
> through this morass....
>
> The crucial passage in the newly discovered Revealed Word is this:
>
>
> THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT SARCASM!
>
>
> There are sensitive plants. We mustn't hurt their feelings.
>
> I beg all of you to meditate profoundly on this koan. It has the
> power to change the world....
>
>
> --
> FG
> Rochester, Michigan USA
>
================ End submitted post ===========================
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Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 08:18:38 -0500
From: FG <@moa.net>
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To: "Richard C. Detweiler" <rdetweil@primenet.com>
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Thank you Richard for Teaching me what the Baha'i Faith truly stands for.
Again, I believe you are CENSORING me and ask you to pass this post on to
someone else.
Richard C. Detweiler wrote:
>
> Dear Mr. Glaysher,
>
> Sorry for the inadvertent send on the last message. The following will
> not be posted to the newsgroup as it is disrespectful in tone and sarcastic
> in the extreme. As a Baha'i, perhaps you will get some value out of the
> following excerpts from Baha'u'llah's Writings. I provide them as insight
> into why the moderators enforce the policies they have in place.
>
> "O ye beloved of the Lord! Commit not that which defileth the limpid
> stream of love or destroyeth the sweet fragrance of friendship. By
> the righteousness of the Lord! We were created to show love one to
> another and not perversity and rancor. Take pride not in love for
> yourselves but in love for your fellow-creatures. Glory not in love
> for your country, but in love for all mankind."
>
> - Baha'u'llah, Tablets of Baha'u'llah 138 (quoted in "Unrestrained
> as the Wind", section on "Demonstrating love and fellowship", p 87 ).
>
> "Say: Human utterance is an essence which aspireth to exert its
> influence and needeth moderation. As to its influence, this is
> conditional upon refinement which in turn is dependent upon hearts
> which are detached and pure. As to its moderation, this hath to be
> combined with tact and wisdom as prescribed in the Holy Scriptures
> and Tablets. Meditate upon that which hath streamed forth from the
> heaven of the Will of thy Lord, He Who is the Source of all grace,
> that thou mayest grasp the intended meaning which is enshrined in
> the sacred depths of the Holy Writings."
>
> - Baha'u'llah, Tablet of Wisdom, Tablets of Baha'u'llah, p. 143
>
> "For the tongue is a smouldering fire, and excess of speech
> a deadly poison. Material fire consumeth the body, whereas
> the fire of the tongue devoureth both heart and soul. The
> force of the former lasteth but for a time, whilst the
> effects of the latter endure a century."
> - Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 193
>
> Thank you for participating,
>
> Dick Detweiler
> rdetweil@primenet.com
> Co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai
>
> ================ Begin submitted post =========================
>
> > To: soc-religion-bahai@uunet.uu.net
> > Path: ppp-pm01-dy-11.ouhub.moa.net
> > From: FG <@MOA.net>
> > Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai
> > Subject: New Sacred Text Unveiled
> > Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 08:18:05 -0500
> > Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A.
> > Lines: 20
> > Message-ID: <3295A80D.1168@moa.net>
> > References: <56vhv1$p1e@nnrp1.news.primenet.com>
> > NNTP-Posting-Host: zeus.moa.net
> > Mime-Version: 1.0
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> > X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I)
> > CC: @MOA.net
> >
> > Apparently, a new text has been discovered. Or perhaps it has always
> > been there. I, and others, apparently, missed it. It was difficult
> > to see. Alas, I, we, are so woefully human.... Blind and stumbling
> > through this morass....
> >
> > The crucial passage in the newly discovered Revealed Word is this:
> >
> >
> > THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT SARCASM!
> >
> >
> > There are sensitive plants. We mustn't hurt their feelings.
> >
> > I beg all of you to meditate profoundly on this koan. It has the
> > power to change the world....
> >
> >
> > --
> > FG
> > Rochester, Michigan USA
> >
>
> ================ End submitted post ===========================
--
FG
Rochester, Michigan USA
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From: "Richard C. Detweiler" <rdetweil@primenet.com>
Message-Id: <199611231808.LAA13655@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: New Sacred Text Unveiled
To: @moa.net (FG)
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 11:08:39 -0700 (MST)
Cc: srb-mods@bcca.org
In-Reply-To: <3296F9AE.6D7C@moa.net> from "FG" at Nov 23, 96
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>
> Thank you Richard for Teaching me what the Baha'i Faith truly stands for.
>
> Again, I believe you are CENSORING me and ask you to pass this post on to
> someone else.
>
It is the policy of the moderation team that we are responsible for the posts
that come in on our watches which typically last a week. After that week
we still are individually responsible for the posts submitted on our time.
In the future if you would like to address your remarks to the moderation
team, please send them to srb-mods@bcca.org which will reach all of the
moderators. However, the decision on the posts in question rest with me
as per the moderation policy of the newsgroup.
Dick Detweiler
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Comments: Authenticated sender is <boatright@mail.cjnetworks.com>
From: "Rick Boatright" <boatright@cjnetworks.com>
Organization: Topeka Busines Computers
To: FG <@moa.net>, srb-mods@bcca.org
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 11:29:01 -0600
Subject: Re: New Sacred Text Unveiled
Reply-to: boatright@cjnetworks.com
Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23)
X-Mozilla-Status: 0015
Dear Frederick,
The decisions about the replies to your posts have been made by the
group of moderators not by Dick acting alone.
I am very very sorry you feel abused about this. The moderators
profoundly belive that this post does not contribute to discussion
"about the beliefs and teachings of the Baha'i Faith." and that it
and the previous post that it reffers to violate the charters
restrictions on abusive language. The group of moderators further
have requested that one of our number forward to you several
selections from the Baha'i writings about hateful speech and the care
with which we must choose words.
Beyond that, if you still feel the moderators are overstepping their
bounds, you may, of course, post your comments about the moderators
in the appropriate forum on Usenet, which is usually considered to be
news.admin.abuse or news.admin.misc. Additionally, you may contact
the newsgroups sponsoring LSA. I will forward their address to you
in a subsequent message, however, you should be forwarned that the
Assembly does not exercise direct oversight over the moderators, nor
is it chartered to. The newsgroup moderators are chartered by the
Usenet newsgroup system, not by any Baha'i institution.
Rick Boatright
co-moderator
soc.religion.bahai
> Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 06:17:46 -0500
> From: FG <@moa.net>
> To: srb-mods@bcca.org
> Cc: @moa.net
> Subject: Re: New Sacred Text Unveiled
> I believe Richard Detweiler is CENSORING my following message. I appeal
> to you, whoever you are, to have some common sense and permit it to be
> posted.
>
> I will forward to you the original message, which he also CENSORED, to
> which this was responding.
>
>
> >
> > Apparently, a new text has been discovered. Or perhaps it has always
> > been there. I, and others, apparently, missed it. It was difficult
> > to see. Alas, I, we, are so woefully human.... Blind and stumbling
> > through this morass....
> >
> > The crucial passage in the newly discovered Revealed Word is this:
> >
> > THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT SARCASM!
> >
> > There are sensitive plants. We mustn't hurt their feelings.
> >
> > I beg all of you to meditate profoundly on this koan. It has the
> > power to change the world....
> >
> > --
> > FG
> > Rochester, Michigan USA
>
> --
> FG
> Rochester, Michigan USA
>
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Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 06:22:47 -0500
From: FG <@moa.net>
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To: boatright@cjnetworks.com
CC: @MOA.net
Subject: Re: New Sacred Text Unveiled
References: <199611261737.LAA27030@topeka.cjnetworks.com>
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Rick Boatright wrote:
>
> Dear Frederick,
>
> The decisions about the replies to your posts have been made by the
> group of moderators not by Dick acting alone.
>
> I am very very sorry you feel abused about this. The moderators
> profoundly belive that this post does not contribute to discussion
> "about the beliefs and teachings of the Baha'i Faith."
The moderators are wrong and censoring my speech.
and that it
> and the previous post that it reffers to violate the charters
> restrictions on abusive language.
"Abusive language"? Cite some of it for me. "Utterly naive"? Oh come on!
What you're doing is censoring and manipulating postings that express opinions
you differ with.
The group of moderators further
> have requested that one of our number forward to you several
> selections from the Baha'i writings about hateful speech
"Hateful speech"! How dare you! Cite it for me, please. It's not in either
post. I absolutely resent your self-righteous, self-serving characterization
of my speech as "hateful." Keep the Baha'i selections and read them yourself!
and the care
> with which we must choose words.
>
Your choice of words leaves much to be desired in my opinion. I don't believe
"hate speech" is in the Baha'i Writings. It's part of the worthless, prevailing
liberalism you're not intelligent enough to see through.
> Beyond that, if you still feel the moderators are overstepping their
> bounds, you may, of course, post your comments about the moderators
> in the appropriate forum on Usenet, which is usually considered to be
> news.admin.abuse or news.admin.misc.
In other words, go away and leave us alone. Don't dare question our
judgement or rock the boat because we're blessed with holy insight.
Additionally, you may contact
> the newsgroups sponsoring LSA.
Why bother? They'll probably only be fanatics like you.
I will forward their address to you
> in a subsequent message, however, you should be forwarned that the
> Assembly does not exercise direct oversight over the moderators, nor
> is it chartered to. The newsgroup moderators are chartered by the
> Usenet newsgroup system, not by any Baha'i institution.
>
Entirely loose canons, eh? Uh huh. Fascists in MHO.
> Rick Boatright
> co-moderator
> soc.religion.bahai
>
> > Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 06:17:46 -0500
> > From: FG <@moa.net>
> > To: srb-mods@bcca.org
> > Cc: @moa.net
> > Subject: Re: New Sacred Text Unveiled
>
> > I believe Richard Detweiler is CENSORING my following message. I appeal
> > to you, whoever you are, to have some common sense and permit it to be
> > posted.
> >
> > I will forward to you the original message, which he also CENSORED, to
> > which this was responding.
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Apparently, a new text has been discovered. Or perhaps it has always
> > > been there. I, and others, apparently, missed it. It was difficult
> > > to see. Alas, I, we, are so woefully human.... Blind and stumbling
> > > through this morass....
> > >
> > > The crucial passage in the newly discovered Revealed Word is this:
> > >
> > > THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT SARCASM!
> > >
> > > There are sensitive plants. We mustn't hurt their feelings.
> > >
> > > I beg all of you to meditate profoundly on this koan. It has the
> > > power to change the world....
> > >
> > > --
> > > FG
> > > Rochester, Michigan USA
> >
> > --
> > FG
> > Rochester, Michigan USA
> >
--
FG
Rochester, Michigan USA
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Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 06:32:46 -0500
From: FG <@moa.net>
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To: Talisman@umich.edu
CC: @MOA.net
Subject: Re: New Sacred Text Unveiled
References: <199611261737.LAA27030@topeka.cjnetworks.com>
<329C2487.3D60@moa.net>
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Would you like a case study in manipulation of speech on soc.religion.bahai?
Read this.
FG wrote:
>
> Rick Boatright wrote:
> >
> > Dear Frederick,
> >
> > The decisions about the replies to your posts have been made by the
> > group of moderators not by Dick acting alone.
> >
> > I am very very sorry you feel abused about this. The moderators
> > profoundly belive that this post does not contribute to discussion
> > "about the beliefs and teachings of the Baha'i Faith."
>
> The moderators are wrong and censoring my speech.
>
> and that it
> > and the previous post that it reffers to violate the charters
> > restrictions on abusive language.
>
> "Abusive language"? Cite some of it for me. "Utterly naive"? Oh come on!
> What you're doing is censoring and manipulating postings that express opinions
> you differ with.
>
> The group of moderators further
> > have requested that one of our number forward to you several
> > selections from the Baha'i writings about hateful speech
>
> "Hateful speech"! How dare you! Cite it for me, please. It's not in either
> post. I absolutely resent your self-righteous, self-serving characterization
> of my speech as "hateful." Keep the Baha'i selections and read them yourself!
>
> and the care
> > with which we must choose words.
> >
>
> Your choice of words leaves much to be desired in my opinion. I don't believe
> "hate speech" is in the Baha'i Writings. It's part of the worthless,
prevailing
> liberalism you're not intelligent enough to see through.
>
> > Beyond that, if you still feel the moderators are overstepping their
> > bounds, you may, of course, post your comments about the moderators
> > in the appropriate forum on Usenet, which is usually considered to be
> > news.admin.abuse or news.admin.misc.
>
> In other words, go away and leave us alone. Don't dare question our
> judgement or rock the boat because we're blessed with holy insight.
>
> Additionally, you may contact
> > the newsgroups sponsoring LSA.
>
> Why bother? They'll probably only be fanatics like you.
>
> I will forward their address to you
> > in a subsequent message, however, you should be forwarned that the
> > Assembly does not exercise direct oversight over the moderators, nor
> > is it chartered to. The newsgroup moderators are chartered by the
> > Usenet newsgroup system, not by any Baha'i institution.
> >
>
> Entirely loose canons, eh? Uh huh. Fascists in MHO.
>
> > Rick Boatright
> > co-moderator
> > soc.religion.bahai
> >
> > > Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 06:17:46 -0500
> > > From: FG <@moa.net>
> > > To: srb-mods@bcca.org
> > > Cc: @moa.net
> > > Subject: Re: New Sacred Text Unveiled
> >
> > > I believe Richard Detweiler is CENSORING my following message. I appeal
> > > to you, whoever you are, to have some common sense and permit it to be
> > > posted.
> > >
> > > I will forward to you the original message, which he also CENSORED, to
> > > which this was responding.
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Apparently, a new text has been discovered. Or perhaps it has always
> > > > been there. I, and others, apparently, missed it. It was difficult
> > > > to see. Alas, I, we, are so woefully human.... Blind and stumbling
> > > > through this morass....
> > > >
> > > > The crucial passage in the newly discovered Revealed Word is this:
> > > >
> > > > THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT SARCASM!
> > > >
> > > > There are sensitive plants. We mustn't hurt their feelings.
> > > >
> > > > I beg all of you to meditate profoundly on this koan. It has the
> > > > power to change the world....
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > FG
> > > > Rochester, Michigan USA
> > >
> > > --
> > > FG
> > > Rochester, Michigan USA
> > >
>
> --
> FG
> Rochester, Michigan USA
--
FG
Rochester, Michigan USA
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Date: Sun, 01 Dec 1996 09:56:13 -0500
From: FG <@moa.net>
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To: SManeck@berry.edu
CC: talisman@umich.edu
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Susan Maneck wrote:
>
> Dear Frederick,
>
> Your postings are not what I would call "hate speech" but they are
> "flames." I think you will make your points much more effectively if
> your tone were a bit more temperate. I say that as someone who
> sympathizes with your concerns.
>
> Susan
Tone? I'll chose the tone I damn well like! To hell with you bunch of
self-appointed overseers of public discussion....
Temperate? As insipid and devoid of personality as the circuits of a
computer board! Is this what the Baha'i Faith amounts to? Old biddies
shaking their crooked fingers in the faces of naughty little boys....
--
FG
Rochester, Michigan USA
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Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 08:14:27 -0500
From: FG <@moa.net>
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Subject: [Fwd: Re: New Sacred Text Unveiled and HONESTY]
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Will I be permitted a hearing here? Oh my, perhaps I should first consult
the holy texts.... No, I might misread them.... Others will read them for
me--they shall tell me what they mean. God has inspired them.... What I
should do? Dare I.... Oh this world of muck and mud....
Subject:
Re: New Sacred Text Unveiled
Date:
Fri, 22 Nov 1996 08:48:14 -0700 (MST)
From:
"Richard C. Detweiler" <rdetweil@primenet.com>
To:
@MOA.net (FG)
CC:
srb-mods@bcca.org
Dear Mr. Glaysher,
Sorry for the inadvertent send on the last message. The following will
not be posted to the newsgroup as it is disrespectful in tone and sarcastic
in the extreme. As a Baha'i, perhaps you will get some value out of the
following excerpts from Baha'u'llah's Writings. I provide them as insight
into why the moderators enforce the policies they have in place.
"O ye beloved of the Lord! Commit not that which defileth the limpid
stream of love or destroyeth the sweet fragrance of friendship. By
the righteousness of the Lord! We were created to show love one to
another and not perversity and rancor. Take pride not in love for
yourselves but in love for your fellow-creatures. Glory not in love
for your country, but in love for all mankind."
- Baha'u'llah, Tablets of Baha'u'llah 138 (quoted in "Unrestrained
as the Wind", section on "Demonstrating love and fellowship", p 87 ).
"Say: Human utterance is an essence which aspireth to exert its
influence and needeth moderation. As to its influence, this is
conditional upon refinement which in turn is dependent upon hearts
which are detached and pure. As to its moderation, this hath to be
combined with tact and wisdom as prescribed in the Holy Scriptures
and Tablets. Meditate upon that which hath streamed forth from the
heaven of the Will of thy Lord, He Who is the Source of all grace,
that thou mayest grasp the intended meaning which is enshrined in
the sacred depths of the Holy Writings."
- Baha'u'llah, Tablet of Wisdom, Tablets of Baha'u'llah, p. 143
"For the tongue is a smouldering fire, and excess of speech
a deadly poison. Material fire consumeth the body, whereas
the fire of the tongue devoureth both heart and soul. The
force of the former lasteth but for a time, whilst the
effects of the latter endure a century."
- Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 193
Thank you for participating,
Dick Detweiler
rdetweil@primenet.com
Co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai
================ Begin submitted post =========================
> To: soc-religion-bahai@uunet.uu.net
> Path: ppp-pm01-dy-11.ouhub.moa.net
> From: FG <@MOA.net>
> Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai
> Subject: New Sacred Text Unveiled
> Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 08:18:05 -0500
> Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A.
> Lines: 20
> Message-ID: <3295A80D.1168@moa.net>
> References: <56vhv1$p1e@nnrp1.news.primenet.com>
> NNTP-Posting-Host: zeus.moa.net
> Mime-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I)
> CC: @MOA.net
>
> Apparently, a new text has been discovered. Or perhaps it has always
> been there. I, and others, apparently, missed it. It was difficult
> to see. Alas, I, we, are so woefully human.... Blind and stumbling
> through this morass....
>
> The crucial passage in the newly discovered Revealed Word is this:
>
>
> THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT SARCASM!
>
>
> There are sensitive plants. We mustn't hurt their feelings.
>
> I beg all of you to meditate profoundly on this koan. It has the
> power to change the world....
>
>
> --
> FG
> Rochester, Michigan USA
>
================ End submitted post ===========================
Forgive me if I hurt your feelings!
--
FG
Rochester, Michigan USA
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From: "Richard C. Detweiler" <rdetweil@primenet.com>
Message-Id: <199611221548.IAA01560@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: New Sacred Text Unveiled
To: @MOA.net (FG)
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 08:48:14 -0700 (MST)
Cc: srb-mods@bcca.org
In-Reply-To: <3295A80D.1168@moa.net> from "FG" at Nov 22, 96
08:18:05
am
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Dear Mr. Glaysher,
Sorry for the inadvertent send on the last message. The following will
not be posted to the newsgroup as it is disrespectful in tone and sarcastic
in the extreme. As a Baha'i, perhaps you will get some value out of the
following excerpts from Baha'u'llah's Writings. I provide them as insight
into why the moderators enforce the policies they have in place.
"O ye beloved of the Lord! Commit not that which defileth the limpid
stream of love or destroyeth the sweet fragrance of friendship. By
the righteousness of the Lord! We were created to show love one to
another and not perversity and rancor. Take pride not in love for
yourselves but in love for your fellow-creatures. Glory not in love
for your country, but in love for all mankind."
- Baha'u'llah, Tablets of Baha'u'llah 138 (quoted in "Unrestrained
as the Wind", section on "Demonstrating love and fellowship", p 87 ).
"Say: Human utterance is an essence which aspireth to exert its
influence and needeth moderation. As to its influence, this is
conditional upon refinement which in turn is dependent upon hearts
which are detached and pure. As to its moderation, this hath to be
combined with tact and wisdom as prescribed in the Holy Scriptures
and Tablets. Meditate upon that which hath streamed forth from the
heaven of the Will of thy Lord, He Who is the Source of all grace,
that thou mayest grasp the intended meaning which is enshrined in
the sacred depths of the Holy Writings."
- Baha'u'llah, Tablet of Wisdom, Tablets of Baha'u'llah, p. 143
"For the tongue is a smouldering fire, and excess of speech
a deadly poison. Material fire consumeth the body, whereas
the fire of the tongue devoureth both heart and soul. The
force of the former lasteth but for a time, whilst the
effects of the latter endure a century."
- Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 193
Thank you for participating,
Dick Detweiler
rdetweil@primenet.com
Co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai
================ Begin submitted post =========================
> To: soc-religion-bahai@uunet.uu.net
> Path: ppp-pm01-dy-11.ouhub.moa.net
> From: FG <@MOA.net>
> Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai
> Subject: New Sacred Text Unveiled
> Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 08:18:05 -0500
> Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A.
> Lines: 20
> Message-ID: <3295A80D.1168@moa.net>
> References: <56vhv1$p1e@nnrp1.news.primenet.com>
> NNTP-Posting-Host: zeus.moa.net
> Mime-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I)
> CC: @MOA.net
>
> Apparently, a new text has been discovered. Or perhaps it has always
> been there. I, and others, apparently, missed it. It was difficult
> to see. Alas, I, we, are so woefully human.... Blind and stumbling
> through this morass....
>
> The crucial passage in the newly discovered Revealed Word is this:
>
>
> THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT SARCASM!
>
>
> There are sensitive plants. We mustn't hurt their feelings.
>
> I beg all of you to meditate profoundly on this koan. It has the
> power to change the world....
>
>
> --
> FG
> Rochester, Michigan USA
>
================ End submitted post ===========================
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Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai
Subject: Re: Let Soc.Religion.Bahai Participants Hear & Decide
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 10:47:23 -0500
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What do YOU think?
Richard C. Detweiler wrote:
>
> Dear Mr. Glaysher,
>
> Thank you for your submission to soc.religion.bahai.
>
> As your post contains sarcastic comments and argues with the
> moderation of the group in a demeaning and disrespectful manner,
> it will not be posted. These issues are also peripheral to
> the purpose of the newsgroup in any case.
>
False. They go to the heart of the matter, i.e., how it functions.
> If you are seeking full vent to your frustrations, I suggest
> news.admin or talk.religion.misc on the Internet as the first
> is appropriate and the other is unmoderated.
"Vent your frustrations" is in the same category as my "Utterly naive."
I don't seek to deprive you of your conscience that apparently believes
that. You may say what you wish. It won't hurt my little feelings.
I believe you're again manipulating discussion in a dictatorial, oppressive
manner unjustified by anything in the Baha'i Writings which you apparently
cloak your shameless deeds in.
This newsgroup,
> however, is for discussion of the Baha'i Faith in an atmosphere
> of respect and free from topical tangents of all kinds.
>
The abuse of the conscience of a member of the Baha'i Faith and, apparently
regular practice of distortion and censorship is not a suitable topic?
I can understand why you wouldn't wish to have anyone else know....
> Thank you for participating,
>
I'm not participating at all. You are self-righteously depriving me of that.
You are also depriving others of hearing or disagreeing with my opinions.
> Dick Detweiler
> rdetweil@primenet.com
> Co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai
>
> ================ Begin submitted post =========================
>
> > To: soc-religion-bahai@uunet.uu.net
> > Path: ppp-pm01-dy-26.ouhub.moa.net
> > From: FG <@MOA.net>
> > Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai
> > Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community
> > Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 05:44:11 -0500
> > Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A.
> > Lines: 68
> > Message-ID: <32918F7B.76FA@moa.net>
> > References: <"-ER8GC.A.gTH.UGkiy"@bounty>
<56qogd$rii@nnrp1.news.primenet.com>
> > NNTP-Posting-Host: zeus.moa.net
> > Mime-Version: 1.0
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> > X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I)
> > To: Sian Smith <sms@mfe.govt.nz>
> > CC: @MOA.net
> >
> > Sian Smith wrote:
> > >
> > > In article <"-ER8GC.A.gTH.UGkiy"@bounty>, FG
<@moa.net> says:
> > > >
> > >
> > > [snip extracts from previous messages about being disillusioned]
> > >
> > > >> : >As you know, the Bahai Faith doesn't have priests, preachers, or any
> > > >> : >individuals who have the responsibility of telling people what to
do, unlike
> > > >> : >churches. However, from my experience I've discovered associating
with
> > > >> : >"Bahais" and not expecting them to play the roles of surrogate
priests and
> > > >> : > surrogate parish to be incredibly wishful and foolish thinking.
> > > >>
> > > >> : Since the Baha'i Community does not have a paid clergy, every Baha'is
is
> > > >> : to perform the service that the clergy of previous religions
performed. We
> > > >> : are each to study the Holy Writings, and to teach and deepen others
in the
> > > >> : Faith. It may be hard for one of a traditional religious background
that
> > > >> : does not encourage study to take responsibility for one's own
spiritual
> > > >> : growth, but we all have to struggle to change our shortcomings.
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >Miguel, you utterly miss Karl's well-taken point here again. It's the
abuse of
> > > >the responsibility that is the crux of his observation. Power corrupts.
> > > >And it can corrupt Baha'is as well as Christians, Muslims, Nazis, etc.
> > >
> > > Excuse my ignorance, but WHO in the Baha'i Faith has any "power"? I've
> > > never met anyone in the Faith who has power of any kind (i.e: power in
> > > the sense that they can exert some kind of binding influence over
> > > another person).
> >
> > I'll give you an example: The "moderators" of this newsgroup. They've
> > censored a number of messages I've tried to post during the last few weeks.
> > They have the "power" to determine what you and everyone else OUT THERE
> > reads.... If that's not control and power to SHAPE thought and opinion what
> > is it?
> >
> > Maybe the previous writer was referring to some other
> > > kind of power - in which case I would be grateful to receive a
> > > "definition", so to speak, of this power and how it compares to the
> > > "definition" I had in mind which, in my own humble opinion, is the sort
> > > of power which is contained in the assertion "power corrupts".
> > >
> >
> > The "moderators" power is corrupting and inhibiting the exchange of ideas
> > on this newsgroup. When I attempted to bring this to the attention of
> > contributors by posting a message to this effect earlier, I was told
> >
> > THOU SHALT NOT QUESTION THE AUTHORITY AND POWER OF THE
"MODERATORS."
> > Kitab-i-Oppression, page 999.
> >
> > > The only person who has any kind of power over my spiritual development
> > > is ME. I cannot abdicate that responsibility to someone else.
> > >
> >
> > There's a sense in which you're right. But secular and religious history
> > is wracked with the abuse of POWER and the devastating results of it....
> > It always began in little ways.... A little at a time.... People
shrugged....
> > Let's not make ways.... Let's build UNITY!
> >
> > > Loving greetings
> > >
> > > Sian Smith
> > > Wellington
> > > New Zealand
> >
> > --
> > FG
> > Rochester, Michigan USA
> >
> = End submitted post ===========================
YOU DEAR CENSORS have shown your true colors once again.
--
FG
Rochester, Michigan USA
Is this happening to YOU too? Assuming this post is now CENSORED,
what do YOU make of it?
--
FG
Rochester, Michigan USA
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From: Juan R Cole <jrcole@umich.edu>
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To: FG <@moa.net>
Subject: Re: use of Lists
In-Reply-To: <32A2BFBA.501F@moa.net>
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Frederick:
The self-righteous prig remark was out of line. Talisman doesn't have
many rules, but personal insults are off limits. I want you to stick
around and become a productive part of the list, but this sort of behavior
can get you kicked off by majority vote. It would be out of my hands.
JRIC
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Date: Tue, 03 Dec 1996 06:25:22 -0500
From: FG <@moa.net>
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To: Juan R Cole <jrcole@umich.edu>
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Juan R Cole wrote:
>
> Frederick:
>
> The self-righteous prig remark was out of line. Talisman doesn't have
> many rules, but personal insults are off limits. I want you to stick
> around and become a productive part of the list, but this sort of behavior
> can get you kicked off by majority vote. It would be out of my hands.
>
> JRIC
I really don't think it was "out of line." It seems to me to have been quite
accurate....
I'll try not to hurt any FEELINGS. It won't be easy given the hypersensitivity
of some people. I'll consider your suggestions along these lines more carefully.
Incidentally, thanks for the info on LISTSERVS. It may take me several days to
read and think about it.
Something for you to ponder: There's more than one way to skin a cat.
--
FG
Rochester, Michigan USA
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Date: Tue, 03 Dec 1996 06:18:05 -0500
From: FG <@moa.net>
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To: LineSync Architecture <linesync@sover.net>
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LineSync Architecture wrote:
>
> I find the continued disparaging language of FG to be most
> offensive. This list is for academic discourse which is easily carried on
> without character assumptions and accusations.
>
> Julie Lineberger
Give me an example of "disparaging language." Sorry to offend your FEELINGS.
Your message leads me to believe you don't know anything about academic
discourse....
--
FG
Rochester, Michigan USA
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Date: Thu, 05 Dec 1996 14:40:40 -0500
From: FG <@moa.net>
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To: Rick Schaut <richs@MICROSOFT.com>
CC: @MOA.net
Subject: Re: Richard Logan's Comments
References:
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Rick Schaut wrote:
>
> Dear Frederick,
>
> You asked,
>
> >What "episode" do you refer to? Can you flesh that out a little more?
> >
> >I believe my message contained sufficient facts for my point to be made.
> >You're certainly welcome to ask around if you wish.
> >
> >
> >Regards,
> >Rick
I'm asking you, but you apparently imagine it's all self-evident.
--
FG
Rochester, Michigan USA
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Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 11:50:51 -0500 (EST)
From: "Joshua S. Greenbaum" <jsgreen@umich.edu>
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Subject: Talisman
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Dear Mr. Glaysher,
I am sorry to inform you that due to numerous complaints regarding
your behavior, I have been forced to remove you from the Talisman list for
a period of six months.
******************************************************************************
*
Josh Greenbaum"For we are like tree trunks in the snow.
Program AssistantIn appearance they lie sleekly and a
Center for Middle Easternlittle push should be enough to set them
and North African Studiesrolling. No, it can't be done, for they
144 Lane Hall 1290are firmly wedded to the ground.
(313) 764-0350But see, even that is only an appearance."
jsgreen@umich.edu-Franz Kafka
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Date: Thu, 05 Dec 1996 06:33:08 -0500
From: FG <@moa.net>
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To: "Richard C. Logan" <nineteen@Onramp.NET>
CC: Sandra Fotos <sfotos@gol.com>, Juan Cole <jrcole@umich.edu>,
"Eric D. Pierce" <PIERCEED@sswdserver.sswd.csus.edu>,
Talisman <talisman@umich.edu>, Soc.Religion.Bahai
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Richard C. Logan wrote:
>
> >No, no, no.... Don't be pedant.... Cite MY nasty, brutish remarks that
> >offend
> >your FEELINGS so.... TELL me I'm wrong. I'll consider it. Give me some
> >reasoning.... NOT footnotes.
> >
> >I'm surrounded by books here in my study and have plenty to read already
> >though
> >I'll read what you write HERE.
>
> Dear Doctor Cole,
>
> I formally request that Mr. Glaysher be removed from the list, or at the
> very least he be admonished to stop being so personal and contentious.
> Everyday I read some unpleasant and rude remarks. Is this really
> neccesary?
>
> Richard C. Logan
> nineteen@onramp.net
> Maintain HomePage "The Baha'is of Lubbock"
> https://rampages.onramp.net/~nineteen/
My apologies if I've made "some unpleasant and rude remarks." If Mr. Logan
would give me more of a sense of exactly what it is he finds to be so, I
could respond more precisely.
If you all will permit me, I find it unpleasant that vague accusations
against me might result in the GAS OVENS! I mean really, come on!
The post of my cited above appears to me to be quite innocuous. How that
could be grounds for ostracism is beyond me.
Okay. I'll try, sincerely, to be nicer.... Give me chance.
Heh, isn't this the newsgroup that has had on it so much about FREE
SPEECH and CONSCIENCE lately?
(How humiliating, having to beg for one's life.)
--
FG
Rochester, Michigan USA
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Date: Thu, 05 Dec 1996 14:43:36 -0500
From: FG <@moa.net>
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belove@sover.net wrote:
>
> Philip here:
>
> I second this request.
>
On what basis? I don't find anything in THIS clip a justifiable basis
for character assassination and ostracism.... As though it were all
self-evident....
> --- On Wed, 4 Dec 96 23:45:15 -0600 "Richard C. Logan"
> <nineteen@onramp.net> wrote:
>
> >>No, no, no.... Don't be pedant.... Cite MY nasty, brutish remarks that
>
> >>offend
> >>your FEELINGS so.... TELL me I'm wrong. I'll consider it. Give me
> some
> >>reasoning.... NOT footnotes.
> >>
> >>I'm surrounded by books here in my study and have plenty to read already
>
> >>though
> >>I'll read what you write HERE.
> >
> >Dear Doctor Cole,
> >
> >I formally request that Mr. Glaysher be removed from the list, or at the
> >very least he be admonished to stop being so personal and contentious.
> >Everyday I read some unpleasant and rude remarks. Is this really
> >neccesary?
> >
> >
> >Richard C. Logan
> >nineteen@onramp.net
> >Maintain HomePage "The Baha'is of Lubbock"
> >https://rampages.onramp.net/~nineteen/
> >
> >
>
> -----------------End of Original Message-----------------
>
> -------------------------------------
> E-mail: belove@sover.net
> Date: 12/5/96
> Time: 9:06:20 AM
>
> This message was sent by Chameleon
> -------------------------------------
--
FG
Rochester, Michigan USA
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From: FG <@moa.net>
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jsgreen is banishing me on the basis of "numerous complaints"! Is that
all it takes? What about FREE SPEECH and individual CONSCIENCE?
Can you plead for my life? Don't let them send me to the gas chambers!
The gulag!
Seriously, this is a serious issue....
As a published writer and poet, I find it quite disturbing....
--
FG
Rochester, Michigan USA
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Date: Fri, 06 Dec 1996 14:48:34 -0500
From: FG <@moa.net>
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To: Quanta Dawn-Light <DAWNLIQU@fllab.chass.ncsu.edu>
CC: talisman@umich.edu, irfan@umich.edu
Subject: Re: Please stop!
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Quanta Dawn-Light wrote:
>
> Dear beloved Frederick,
>
> You are more loved than you realize! You are the beloved
> universal child of Father Cosmos and Mother Earth.
> You contain many of hearts within you who do truly love you.
> Stop hurting yourself. Please! Please! Please!
>
> love,
> q.
>
> ***************************************
> Life is a pattern of relationships (*_*)
Well, dear friend (may I call you that?), I understand what you are saying....
Alas, here, in the Siberian taiga, I fear you blame the victim. Can you
consider that? No one else has. I hope your good heart will permit you to for
at least one moment....
Yes, not a complete victim. (Oh the bitter ironies of life, the soul a tangled
skein.) I apologize, sincerely, dearest, for any untoward harm I might have
done. And dearest Sonia, I will watch for you outside the prison walls!
--
FG
Rochester, Michigan USA
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