>From - Wed Nov 20 13:57:47 1996 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.66) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Wed, 20 Nov 1996 10:25:30 -0500 Message-ID: <3293247F.2340@moa.net> Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 10:32:15 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Richard C. Detweiler" CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community References: <199611191443.HAA24131@primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Further response-- Your characterization of my comments as sarcastic is ludicrous. One may not be sarcastic in the Baha'i Faith? And you are too determine is toooooo SARCASTIC? Oh God, what a farce! Since you apparently don't understand the passage in question, I'm supposed to water in down for YOUR ignorance! I'm talking about the totalitarianism of the SOVIET UNION which you dangerously come close to. Again, I request that you post my message or pass it on to someone else who is not as fanatical as you. Richard C. Detweiler wrote: > > Dear Mr. Glaysher, > > Thank you for your submission to soc.religion.bahai. > > I ask that you strike the comment "utterly naive" as an attack > on the previous poster. If you would like to say you disagree, > that would be acceptable. > > Also, your sarcastic comments in the following paragraph: > > > Excellent point. A profound moral problem arises here. How can the individual > > maintain the moral strength of character to resist abuse and manipulation when > > power can be wielded in such a way as to undermine that very ability? To > > discredit it. Ban it. Brand it as outlaw, heretic, disruptive, anti-social, > > working against the realization, e.g., of the communist Kingdom of Freedom. > > If you would turn this into a meaningful criticism based on actual events > than the readership could evaluate and enter into a dialog with you on these > events. > > Again, let me make it clear that if you have a grievance with the Faith, > you are free to air it here, but it must be the facts and your reasons for > the grievance presented and not belittling insults, broad stereotypes, and > blatant sarcasm. > > Thank you for participating, > > Dick Detweiler > rdetweil@primenet.com > Co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai > > ================ Begin submitted post ========================= > > > To: soc-religion-bahai@uunet.uu.net > > Path: ppp-pm01-dy-26.ouhub.moa.net > > From: FG <@moa.net> > > Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai > > Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community > > Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 06:10:21 -0500 > > Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A. > > Lines: 78 > > Message-ID: <3291959D.7D9C@moa.net> > > References: <"-ER8GC.A.gTH.UGkiy"@bounty> <56qoi9$rmd@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> > > NNTP-Posting-Host: zeus.moa.net > > Mime-Version: 1.0 > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) > > To: Anne Furlong > > CC: @moa.net > > > > Anne Furlong wrote: > > > > > > The reference to power probably helps poinpoint the difficulty some of > > > the friends have here. The point is that in this Faith, for the first > > > time in religious history, power and authority have been intentionally > > > and effectively severed. The authority to make decisions, to legislate, > > > to guide, rests with the elected institutions of the Faith. However, > > > these institutions - and the individuals who make them up - have no power > > > whatsoever. > > > > "No power whatsoever": Utterly naive.... > > > > [clip] From: FG <@MOA.net> Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Subject: New Sacred Text Unveiled Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 08:43:04 -0500 Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A. Lines: 20 Message-ID: <32945C68.3378@moa.net> References: <56tfo6$cgg@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> <56vdgi$eth@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: zeus.moa.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) CC: @MOA.net X-Mozilla-Status: 0004 Apparently, a new text has been discovered. Or perhaps it has always been there. I, and others, apparently, missed it. It was difficult to see. Alas, I, we, are so woefully human.... Blind and stumbling through this morass.... The crucial passage in the newly discovered Revealed Word is this: THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT SARCASM! There are sensitive plants. We mustn't hurt their feelings. I beg all of you to meditate profoundly on this koan. It has the power to change the world.... -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester, Michigan USA From: FG <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Richard C. Detweiler" CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community References: <199611202214.PAA26784@primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Richard C. Detweiler wrote: > > > > > > > The charter of the newsgroup states that "the Newsgroup will be subject > > > to standards of Baha'i consultation whose salient features include frank > > > yet respectful statement of views and the concerted, open-minded search > > > for truth." It is on this statement in the charter and this statement > > > alone that I have rejected some of your posts. > > > > I don't believe this is true. "Utterly naive" refers to the idea, not to > > its author as an insult. You're the one who has construed that way. I can't > > even understand what could possibly be WRONG with your objection to the > > second passage in the post in question. > > > > Thank you for pointing this out - I hadn't thought of it like that. Then what's YOUR problem. Post it or suppress it. But I > hope you can see that if I (and the other mods) can be confused on this > point, it will probably be the case with many in the readership as well. You're assumption is that OTHERS will be as imperceptive as you. And hence you BAN ME! > Our tendency is to err on the side of not posting things when they may be > misinterpretted by the readership as being attacks or insults. Even after admitting the ERROR is on your part? Not logical. You're trying to justify your heavy-handed will to BAN. That way, > the respectful tone is maintained. There is nothing disrespectful about either passage YOU'VE questioned. Remember that the readership includes > people from all backgrounds and cultures. Irrelevant justification. You're groping for excuses. I have been surprised many times > when seemingly innocuous comments have offended. Nothing would then ever get posted in your scenario. Unless it meets your prejudices. I try to make sure the > chance of this is kept to a minimum. > I don't know that. You're suppression to posting ratio would be required to make that determination; it would have to be independently confirmed. > And, if I may, don't you think "I believe you are being naive because..." > makes your points easier for other to accept and continue to engage you > rather than a brusque "Utterly naive"? Please think about that. I > assume your reason for being here is to share your viewpoint with others. > You sound like a schoolmarm. A self-righteous, prudish old bag. What gives you the right? God's charter? It doesn't come from Him. > > Your attempt to hide behind the newsgroup charter strikes me as a mere > > stratagem to conceal what you're actually doing: CENSORING. > > > > Once again, Mr Glaysher - my job is not to supress ideas but to make sure > those ideas are presented in a respectful manner conducive to frank and > unfettered consultation. > You're completely fettering my consultation. But that's okay. You possess the prescience to know better. Again, you're groping for justification of your suppressing the presentation of my views to others. > I continue to await the chance to post your thoughts in the submittals in > question when they are appropriate for posting to the newsgroup. > Mr. Detweiler, you appear to me to be completely shameless and drunk on your little power to muzzle people who don't echo your opinions. > Dick Detweiler > co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai Again, I ask you to post my message since as you acknowledge above its about IDEAS. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester, Michigan USA From: "Richard C. Detweiler" Message-Id: <199611221548.IAA01560@primenet.com> Subject: Re: New Sacred Text Unveiled To: @MOA.net (Frederick Glaysher) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 08:48:14 -0700 (MST) Cc: srb-mods@bcca.org In-Reply-To: <3295A80D.1168@moa.net> from "Frederick Glaysher" at Nov 22, 96 08:18:05 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Dear Mr. Glaysher, Sorry for the inadvertent send on the last message. The following will not be posted to the newsgroup as it is disrespectful in tone and sarcastic in the extreme. As a Baha'i, perhaps you will get some value out of the following excerpts from Baha'u'llah's Writings. I provide them as insight into why the moderators enforce the policies they have in place. "O ye beloved of the Lord! Commit not that which defileth the limpid stream of love or destroyeth the sweet fragrance of friendship. By the righteousness of the Lord! We were created to show love one to another and not perversity and rancor. Take pride not in love for yourselves but in love for your fellow-creatures. Glory not in love for your country, but in love for all mankind." - Baha'u'llah, Tablets of Baha'u'llah 138 (quoted in "Unrestrained as the Wind", section on "Demonstrating love and fellowship", p 87 ). "Say: Human utterance is an essence which aspireth to exert its influence and needeth moderation. As to its influence, this is conditional upon refinement which in turn is dependent upon hearts which are detached and pure. As to its moderation, this hath to be combined with tact and wisdom as prescribed in the Holy Scriptures and Tablets. Meditate upon that which hath streamed forth from the heaven of the Will of thy Lord, He Who is the Source of all grace, that thou mayest grasp the intended meaning which is enshrined in the sacred depths of the Holy Writings." - Baha'u'llah, Tablet of Wisdom, Tablets of Baha'u'llah, p. 143 "For the tongue is a smouldering fire, and excess of speech a deadly poison. Material fire consumeth the body, whereas the fire of the tongue devoureth both heart and soul. The force of the former lasteth but for a time, whilst the effects of the latter endure a century." - Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 193 Thank you for participating, Dick Detweiler rdetweil@primenet.com Co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai ================ Begin submitted post ========================= > To: soc-religion-bahai@uunet.uu.net > Path: ppp-pm01-dy-11.ouhub.moa.net > From: FG <@MOA.net> > Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai > Subject: New Sacred Text Unveiled > Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 08:18:05 -0500 > Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A. > Lines: 20 > Message-ID: <3295A80D.1168@moa.net> > References: <56vhv1$p1e@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> > NNTP-Posting-Host: zeus.moa.net > Mime-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) > CC: @MOA.net > > Apparently, a new text has been discovered. Or perhaps it has always > been there. I, and others, apparently, missed it. It was difficult > to see. Alas, I, we, are so woefully human.... Blind and stumbling > through this morass.... > > The crucial passage in the newly discovered Revealed Word is this: > > > THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT SARCASM! > > > There are sensitive plants. We mustn't hurt their feelings. > > I beg all of you to meditate profoundly on this koan. It has the > power to change the world.... > > > -- > Frederick Glaysher > Rochester, Michigan USA > ================ End submitted post =========================== >From - Sun Nov 24 10:10:50 1996 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.60) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Sat, 23 Nov 1996 07:34:58 -0500 Message-ID: <3296F108.4BEF@moa.net> Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 07:41:44 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Richard C. Detweiler" CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community References: <199611211540.IAA09540@primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 What I wrote meets the charter of the newsgroup and the "modifications" you want are unnecessary and unjustifiable. You yourself acknowledged your request for "modification" was based on your own misreading and misunderstanding of the post. God save us if the Baha'i Faith comes down to people like you "protecting" us.... I ask you again to post it or pass it on to someone else who's more rational than you. --------------66BCAC671B4-- From - Sun Feb 09 10:45:45 1997 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.57) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Sun, 09 Feb 1997 10:36:55 -0500 Message-ID: <32FDF0C5.77BA@moa.net> Date: Sun, 09 Feb 1997 10:44:05 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: momen@northill.demon.co.uk Subject: installment 2 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------66BCAC671B4" X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 46866 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------66BCAC671B4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit #10-19. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA --------------66BCAC671B4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="srb10-19.txt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="srb10-19.txt" Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 06:35:36 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: boatright@cjnetworks.com CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community References: <199611181639.KAA16177@topeka.cjnetworks.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Rick Boatright wrote: > > Dear Frederick, > > I was trying to say two unrelated things. > > First, that was a really nice message. Well thought, cohesive, good > writing, I was trying to give you a compliment. > I don't need nor want your unsolicted editorial comments BIG BROTHER. I want the freedom to speak the conscience God has given me and the freedom to be responded to by OTHERS' unconstrained consciences. Stay out of the way. > Second, I was expressing my gratitude that the conflict between you > and the moderators a couple of weeks ago did not result in your > leaving the newsgroup. I appriciate your continued participation. > I feel nothing but contempt for the way you and Richard Detweiler have handled my postings. Make no mistake in that regard. Neither one of you, or anybody, has the prescience to exercise such power and control over others' consciences. The abuse of your power is a proper subject for discussion on the newsgroup. > > Rick Boatright wrote: > > > > > > Really nice message. Good work. Thanks for hanging in there with > > > us Frederick. I really appriciate it. > > > > > > Rick Boatright > > > > > > > Frankly, I don't know what you mean here. > > > > -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester, Michigan USA Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 06:47:54 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: boatright@cjnetworks.com CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: The Integrity of Bahai Marriage (revised) References: <199611181657.KAA17797@topeka.cjnetworks.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Rick Boatright wrote: > > And in your internal model, what is the difference between a > moderator and a censor? See previous message to you. I asked a polite question. Did you intend > to post this? I sent it to the newsgroup, didn't I? Lots of people post things they didn't intend to, and > we catch a lot of those. In such cases, you'd be properly assisting discussion. They are generally greatful. I didn't > complain that you characterize Baha'i women as bloodless. Why should you? What business is it of yours? I'm not writing to you, nor do I want to. Yet here I am stuck in a non-productive task dealing with you and Richard.... I probebly > should. Why should you. Who the hell are you? I didn't complain that your comment was bigoted and > offensive to the vast majority of sexually active and spirited Baha'i > women, though I probebly should. A complaint you're entitled to make. In public. In response to me on the Net. Not shunting anything YOU don't like off into obscurity. Let them tell you that themselves. > I am saying the freedom for them to say so should be extended to them. You are robbing them of that God-given freedom of expression of conscience. > I asked a polite question. > > Lighten up. > Don't tell me to lighten up when you and Richard are perverting and screening the newsgroup self-righteous, prudishly suppressing opinions you don't like. Again, who are you two to make such decisions? Do you really imagine God has given you the ability to make such judgements? > Don't try to put a nazi mantle on my shoulders. > It's already there, Rick. Wake up. > Rick Boatright > co-moderator > soc.religion.bahai > > -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester, Michigan USA >From - Wed Nov 20 10:10:58 1996 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.58) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Wed, 20 Nov 1996 08:46:37 -0500 Message-ID: <32930D52.2FC8@moa.net> Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 08:53:22 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Richard C. Detweiler" CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community References: <199611191434.HAA23362@primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Richard C. Detweiler wrote: > > Dear Mr. Glaysher, > > Thank you for your submission to soc.religion.bahai. > > As your post contains sarcastic comments and argues with the > moderation of the group in a demeaning and disrespectful manner, > it will not be posted. These issues are also peripheral to > the purpose of the newsgroup in any case. > > If you are seeking full vent to your frustrations, I suggest > news.admin or talk.religion.misc on the Internet as the first > is appropriate and the other is unmoderated. This newsgroup, > however, is for discussion of the Baha'i Faith in an atmosphere > of respect and free from topical tangents of all kinds. > > Thank you for participating, > > Dick Detweiler > rdetweil@primenet.com > Co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai > I'm not at all surprised Richardt.... Fascists and totalitarians have always sought to conceal and manipulate reality. > ================ Begin submitted post ========================= > > > To: soc-religion-bahai@uunet.uu.net > > Path: ppp-pm01-dy-26.ouhub.moa.net > > From: FG <@MOA.net> > > Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai > > Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community > > Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 05:44:11 -0500 > > Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A. > > Lines: 68 > > Message-ID: <32918F7B.76FA@moa.net> > > References: <"-ER8GC.A.gTH.UGkiy"@bounty> <56qogd$rii@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> > > NNTP-Posting-Host: zeus.moa.net > > Mime-Version: 1.0 > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) > > To: Sian Smith > > CC: @MOA.net > > > > Sian Smith wrote: > > > > > > In article <"-ER8GC.A.gTH.UGkiy"@bounty>, Frederick Glaysher <@moa.net> says: > > > > > > > > > > [snip extracts from previous messages about being disillusioned] > > > > > > >> : >As you know, the Bahai Faith doesn't have priests, preachers, or any > > > >> : >individuals who have the responsibility of telling people what to do, unlike > > > >> : >churches. However, from my experience I've discovered associating with > > > >> : >"Bahais" and not expecting them to play the roles of surrogate priests and > > > >> : > surrogate parish to be incredibly wishful and foolish thinking. > > > >> > > > >> : Since the Baha'i Community does not have a paid clergy, every Baha'is is > > > >> : to perform the service that the clergy of previous religions performed. We > > > >> : are each to study the Holy Writings, and to teach and deepen others in the > > > >> : Faith. It may be hard for one of a traditional religious background that > > > >> : does not encourage study to take responsibility for one's own spiritual > > > >> : growth, but we all have to struggle to change our shortcomings. > > > >> > > > > > > > >Miguel, you utterly miss Karl's well-taken point here again. It's the abuse of > > > >the responsibility that is the crux of his observation. Power corrupts. > > > >And it can corrupt Baha'is as well as Christians, Muslims, Nazis, etc. > > > > > > Excuse my ignorance, but WHO in the Baha'i Faith has any "power"? I've > > > never met anyone in the Faith who has power of any kind (i.e: power in > > > the sense that they can exert some kind of binding influence over > > > another person). > > > > I'll give you an example: The "moderators" of this newsgroup. They've > > censored a number of messages I've tried to post during the last few weeks. > > They have the "power" to determine what you and everyone else OUT THERE > > reads.... It that's not control and power to SHAPE thought and opinion what > > is it? > > > > Maybe the previous writer was referring to some other > > > kind of power - in which case I would be grateful to receive a > > > "definition", so to speak, of this power and how it compares to the > > > "definition" I had in mind which, in my own humble opinion, is the sort > > > of power which is contained in the assertion "power corrupts". > > > > > > > The "moderators" power is corrupting and inhibiting the exchange of ideas > > on this newsgroup. When I attempted to bring this to the attention of > > contributors by posting a message to this effect earlier, I was told > > > > THOU SHALT NOT QUESTION THE AUTHORITY AND POWER OF THE "MODERATORS." > > Kitab-i-Oppression, page 999. > > > > > The only person who has any kind of power over my spiritual development > > > is ME. I cannot abdicate that responsibility to someone else. > > > > > > > There's a sense in which you're right. But secular and religious history > > is wracked with the abuse of POWER and the devastating results of it.... > > It always began in little ways.... A little at a time.... People shrugged.... > > Let's not make waves.... Let's build UNITY! > > > > > Loving greetings > > > > > > Sian Smith > > > Wellington > > > New Zealand > > > > -- > > Frederick Glaysher > > Rochester, Michigan USA > > > > ================ End submitted post =========================== -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester, Michigan USA Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 09:26:05 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Maya Kaathryn Bohnhoff CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community References: <"BYWGWC.A.PdB.pm0iy"@bounty> <328C806E.295C@moa.net> <32908412.2C44@oro.net> <3291A53E.78A1@moa.net> <3291CC64.9F@oro.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 Maya Kaathryn Bohnhoff wrote: > > Frederick Glaysher wrote: > > > > It > > > may be failing on my part if I don't try to correct > > > their view of me, but it is a far grosser failing if > > > I resent them for their views and let myself become > > > embittered by it. I won't change anything by lashing > > > out in anger, or by intentional alienation. Worst of all > > > if I separate myself from the entire Baha'i community > > > and Baha'u'allah because of these people, I'm only > > > doing myself a disservice. If they're really my enemies, > > > then my being a "weak sister" would be quite pleasing > > > to them. > > > > > > > You're a lovely soul. A more pious answer than I can muster. > > Piety has nothing to do with it. It's common sense. If we are > to unify, we must be unified. Unity can never be served by > anger or alienation. The only way to get rid of darkness is > to throw light on it. More darkness only conduces to, well... > more darkness. > > To my mind, after twenty years in the Baha'i Faith, the "unity" is a fraud, doesn't exist.... > > How will they deal with such things? What are the mechanisms? > > For "Evil is the Nature of Mankind." > > The mechanisms are those clearly laid down by Baha'u'llah, > Abdu'l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi. They involve a certain > giving up of self, consultation, respect, courtesy and > other attributes with which God has fully invested us. If these are the "mechanisms," they're insufficient. > I have served on assemblies for over 15 years. I've seen > this at work. Sometimes we need reminders, sometimes we > fail utterly, but the fact that we try is of paramount > importance and has great power. > > ""Evil is the Nature of Mankind?" Not according to > Baha'u'llah: > > "O Son of the Wondrous Vision! I have breathed upon thee > a breath of My own Spirit that thou mayest be My lover. > Why hast thou forsaken me and sought a beloved other > than Me?" > > "O Son of Spirit! Noble have I created thee, yet thou > hast abased thyself. Rise then, unto that for which > thou wast created." > > These passages and others make it clear that it is > our nature to be noble. Antinomy is presupposed. There is tragedy in Baha'u'llah's writings, tragedy minds like yours (I mean no insult), typically fail to understand. The other part is nurture. > We learn deceit and we teach it to others. We learn > hatred and we pass it along like a disease. > > > > Buddha said: Hatred does not cease by hatred, hatred ceases > > > by love. > > > > > > > Tell that to the Tibetans who have had their whole civilization > > wiped out.... > > They understand this better than anyone. What, after all, > nearly wiped out their civilization? Hatred and fear of what > was different and not controllable by the powers that would > be. > Even the Dali Lama has had second thoughts.... Much too late. > > They must. Let's be practical. What though when Assemblies self- > > righteously abuse their authority and persecute individuals? That > > can happen too, and then what? > > If a person feels he is being persecuted he has recourse to > the Auxiliary Board, another spiritual assembly, the National > Spiritual Assembly or even the House of Justice. Any and all > of these avenues of redress is open to the individual. Of > course, there is always the possibility that the individual's > perception that he's being "persecuted" is false. It's never > pleasant to be wrong about something, less pleasant to have > someone call your attention to it and ask that your behavior > change. I know this from personal experience. > > > > > As > > > an individual, I still had to treat the subject of consultation > > > with compassion. > > > > > > > A very dehumanizing phrase, Maya. It seems to me. This human tendency > > worries me. Don't tell me to pray about it. > > I'm sorry. I certainly didn't intend it to be. I intended it to be > neutral. Look, I have served on assemblies long enough to have > seen a gamut of personal problems and situations arise. I have > NEVER known an assembly to EVER lose sight of the fact that > what they were dealing with wasn't a problem, but a person. > Usually, the person is much loved, and their situation causes > the members of the institution very personal grief. > > The sad thing is that the soul involved doesn't always realize > this. And regardless of the actual feelings of the assembly > members, treats them as if they were indeed, a persecuting > force. One young man an assembly I sat on counseled had a > drug problem for which he refused to get help. He viewed > the mere fact that the assembly called him for consultation > as an act of personal persecution. He thought the people on > the assembly were "out to get him," when in fact, every one > of them loved him, valued him and wanted him to be well both > spiritually and physically. After one meeting in which we had > attempted to talk to him, several members of the assembly burst > into tears. > Anything in the name of love? Nine amateur spiritual psychologists are just going to talk someone straight? I've seen it attempted too with similar results.... > > > > Reasonable. Many in the Faith thinks this way. I do too in some regards. > > But then we're no longer in a world of ideal beauty.... > > But Baha'u'llah is clear that His teachings and the power > released by His revelation have the capacity to light that > spark He says lies latent within us. I've seen what that > spark can accomplish in the lives of ordinary human beings. > We have within our grasp the means of bringing that world > of ideal beauty out of the realm of spirit and onto this > earth. The scriptures of God's faith in every age proclaim > this unequivocally. > And have always failed.... By there own self-definitions, failed. Why? What is it about human nature? Do you actually believe the Baha'i Faith will do any better? I don't. I don't believe the deepest suggestions of the writings suggest any such thing. > > My post, I believe, was about the individual capacity to sully anything > > and everything in "this world of gloom." > > May I call you Eeyore? :) (Sorry, couldn't help myself.) > I tried to post a reply to on the newsgroup. I used the same phrase in the copy I mailed you: "utterly naive" Richard Detweiler has banned my post because it might hurt your feelings--not my intention. A good example of the self-righteous Fascism build the new world order inspires in Baha'i fanatics.... Calling me Eeyore doesn't hurt my feelings. I have, unlike fanatics, a sense of humor and relish the variety of human temperaments God has so blessed the world with. Yours is not mine, that is all. Do the Faith a favor, write the CENSOR and tell him to respect the human conscience of others, not only mine. > In the Kitab-i-Iqan, Baha'u'llah says that when we truly > accept Him, recognize Him, the Holy Spirit will confer > upon us "a new ear, a new eye, a new heart and a new mind." > We are capable of being transformed, and the Word of God > (and only the Word of God ) is capable of causing that > transformation. > Beautiful metaphors. Understand? > I am deeply sorry that your experience within the > Baha'i community has been so negative. The lack of complexity is what concerns me, and the lack of acknowledgement of proportion. But every > negative experience in life offers us more than one > way to react. I've often marveled how adversity can > make one person opt for a life of misery and > recrimination (it was mother's fault, it was God's > fault, it was...) and another come to the decision that > they will simply NOT let that adversity steal their > joy, or their life. > > I know there are Baha'i communities that are ruled > by a small clique of set in stone believers, or > groups where a number of petty-minded souls seem > to have things in control. Indeed, I have a friend > who lived in such a community until a new Baha'i > family moved in and changed the dynamics of the > situation. My friend chose to deal with the problem > by withdrawing. The new friends set about and > accomplished the renewal of that community by > opening their house to firesides, getting the > assembly to meet, teaching the faith, and most > important, showering everyone in their community, > including those set in stone souls with love. They > gave the community the medicine Baha'u'llah > prescribed and saved the patient. > The usual answer. Lacking complexity. > You may argue against the idea that hatred ceases > only through love, but this is a prescription from > a Physician who knows far more about the ills of > human kind than either you or I. > It has never truly healed the patient. Baha'u'llah, unlike Baha'is, understands the condition is terminal.... > Mir, Maya > +----------------------------------------+ > | Maya Kaathryn Bohnhoff syntax@oro.net | > +----------------------------------------+ > | "The beginning of all things is the | > | knowledge of God." - Baha'u'llah | > +----------------------------------------+ -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester, Michigan USA From: "Richard C. Detweiler" Message-Id: <199611191443.HAA24131@primenet.com> Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community To: @moa.net (Frederick Glaysher) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 07:43:07 -0700 (MST) Cc: srb-mods@bcca.org In-Reply-To: <3291959D.7D9C@moa.net> from "Frederick Glaysher" at Nov 19, 96 06:10:21 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Dear Mr. Glaysher, Thank you for your submission to soc.religion.bahai. I ask that you strike the comment "utterly naive" as an attack on the previous poster. If you would like to say you disagree, that would be acceptable. Also, your sarcastic comments in the following paragraph: > Excellent point. A profound moral problem arises here. How can the individual > maintain the moral strength of character to resist abuse and manipulation when > power can be wielded in such a way as to undermine that very ability? To > discredit it. Ban it. Brand it as outlaw, heretic, disruptive, anti-social, > working against the realization, e.g., of the communist Kingdom of Freedom. If you would turn this into a meaningful criticism based on actual events than the readership could evaluate and enter into a dialog with you on these events. Again, let me make it clear that if you have a grievance with the Faith, you are free to air it here, but it must be the facts and your reasons for the grievance presented and not belittling insults, broad stereotypes, and blatant sarcasm. Thank you for participating, Dick Detweiler rdetweil@primenet.com Co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai ================ Begin submitted post ========================= > To: soc-religion-bahai@uunet.uu.net > Path: ppp-pm01-dy-26.ouhub.moa.net > From: FG <@moa.net> > Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai > Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community > Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 06:10:21 -0500 > Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A. > Lines: 78 > Message-ID: <3291959D.7D9C@moa.net> > References: <"-ER8GC.A.gTH.UGkiy"@bounty> <56qoi9$rmd@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> > NNTP-Posting-Host: zeus.moa.net > Mime-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) > To: Anne Furlong > CC: @moa.net > > Anne Furlong wrote: > > > > The reference to power probably helps poinpoint the difficulty some of > > the friends have here. The point is that in this Faith, for the first > > time in religious history, power and authority have been intentionally > > and effectively severed. The authority to make decisions, to legislate, > > to guide, rests with the elected institutions of the Faith. However, > > these institutions - and the individuals who make them up - have no power > > whatsoever. > > "No power whatsoever": Utterly naive.... > > [clip] > > > > > Why do people become disillusioned with the community? with individuals? > > Well, we all know people who, by force of personality, or because of > > defects of character and personality, receive, demand, or desire > > acquiescence from other individuals. But note: if such people do in fact > > poison a community, who ultimately must take the responsibility? Power > > is not theirs to command: it is ceded to them by those who have not the > > wisdom or the courage to recognise that what is being asked is both > > contrary to the Faith, and ultimately impossible to give. > > > > Excellent point. A profound moral problem arises here. How can the individual > maintain the moral strength of character to resist abuse and manipulation when > power can be wielded in such a way as to undermine that very ability? To > discredit it. Ban it. Brand it as outlaw, heretic, disruptive, anti-social, > working against the realization, e.g., of the communist Kingdom of Freedom. > > > Yes, impossible: for since in the Administrative order which is > > Baha'u'llah's gift to the world, power and authority are divided, > > In theory, yes; in practice, I'm not convinced. > > then the > > efforts of a few misguided individuals to bring power and authority > > together in their own persons; or to build up factions; or to do anything, > > in fact, which is contravenes the spirit and the reality of the Covenant, > > are doomed to failure. 'Abdu'l-Baha said that the ocean of the Covenant > > will surge and surge until it casts the bodies of the (spiritually) dead > > onto the shore. We cannot ultimately harm the progress of the Cause, but > > can cut ourselves off from the abundant share of the blessings which > > obedience to the Covenant brings to us. > > > > If we are disillusioned with the community we live in, then our response > > will either add to the problem or be the start of its eradication. The > > whole purpose of consultation is to allow the individual to exercise > > responsibility - his power - within the "unit of civilization". > > What I am saying is that there are situations when it is not allowed. You're > too quick to leap over that fact for me. > > We are > > all going to be responsible for our actions to Baha'u'llah when we pass > > from this earth; are we going to plead the immaturity of others as the > > reason for our failure to love? > > > > Your dragging "love" into this confuses the issue. > > > Baha'u'llah did more than despise tyranny; in his Administrative Order, > > He, as the Divine Physician, prescribed the effective and permanent remedy. > > > > The point from the original post was in regard to the abuse of the remedy, > turning it into a cheap medicine show elixir. What then of the community > or individuals under that Tyranny? > > > All the best, > > > > Anne Furlong > > St John's Newfoundland Canada > > -- > Frederick Glaysher > Rochester, Michigan USA > ================ End submitted post =========================== Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 10:27:04 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Richard C. Detweiler" CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community References: <199611191434.HAA23362@primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Richard C. Detweiler wrote: > > Dear Mr. Glaysher, > > Thank you for your submission to soc.religion.bahai. > > As your post contains sarcastic comments and argues with the > moderation of the group in a demeaning and disrespectful manner, > it will not be posted. These issues are also peripheral to > the purpose of the newsgroup in any case. > False. They go to the heart of the matter, i.e., how it functions. > If you are seeking full vent to your frustrations, I suggest > news.admin or talk.religion.misc on the Internet as the first > is appropriate and the other is unmoderated. "Vent your frustrations" is in the same category as my "Utterly naive." I don't seek to deprive you of your conscience that apparently believes that. You may say what you wish. It won't hurt my little feelings. I believe you're again manipulating discussion in a dictatorial, oppressive manner unjustified by anything in the Baha'i Writings which you apparently cloak your shameless deeds in. This newsgroup, > however, is for discussion of the Baha'i Faith in an atmosphere > of respect and free from topical tangents of all kinds. > The abuse of the conscience of a member of the Baha'i Faith and, apparently regular practice of distortion and censorship is not a suitable topic? I can understand why you wouldn't wish to have anyone else know.... > Thank you for participating, > I'm not participating at all. You are self-righteous depriving me of that. You are also depriving others of hearing or disagreeing with my opinions. > Dick Detweiler > rdetweil@primenet.com > Co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai > > ================ Begin submitted post ========================= > > > To: soc-religion-bahai@uunet.uu.net > > Path: ppp-pm01-dy-26.ouhub.moa.net > > From: FG <@MOA.net> > > Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai > > Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community > > Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 05:44:11 -0500 > > Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A. > > Lines: 68 > > Message-ID: <32918F7B.76FA@moa.net> > > References: <"-ER8GC.A.gTH.UGkiy"@bounty> <56qogd$rii@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> > > NNTP-Posting-Host: zeus.moa.net > > Mime-Version: 1.0 > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) > > To: Sian Smith > > CC: @MOA.net > > > > Sian Smith wrote: > > > > > > In article <"-ER8GC.A.gTH.UGkiy"@bounty>, Frederick Glaysher <@moa.net> says: > > > > > > > > > > [snip extracts from previous messages about being disillusioned] > > > > > > >> : >As you know, the Bahai Faith doesn't have priests, preachers, or any > > > >> : >individuals who have the responsibility of telling people what to do, unlike > > > >> : >churches. However, from my experience I've discovered associating with > > > >> : >"Bahais" and not expecting them to play the roles of surrogate priests and > > > >> : > surrogate parish to be incredibly wishful and foolish thinking. > > > >> > > > >> : Since the Baha'i Community does not have a paid clergy, every Baha'is is > > > >> : to perform the service that the clergy of previous religions performed. We > > > >> : are each to study the Holy Writings, and to teach and deepen others in the > > > >> : Faith. It may be hard for one of a traditional religious background that > > > >> : does not encourage study to take responsibility for one's own spiritual > > > >> : growth, but we all have to struggle to change our shortcomings. > > > >> > > > > > > > >Miguel, you utterly miss Karl's well-taken point here again. It's the abuse of > > > >the responsibility that is the crux of his observation. Power corrupts. > > > >And it can corrupt Baha'is as well as Christians, Muslims, Nazis, etc. > > > > > > Excuse my ignorance, but WHO in the Baha'i Faith has any "power"? I've > > > never met anyone in the Faith who has power of any kind (i.e: power in > > > the sense that they can exert some kind of binding influence over > > > another person). > > > > I'll give you an example: The "moderators" of this newsgroup. They've > > censored a number of messages I've tried to post during the last few weeks. > > They have the "power" to determine what you and everyone else OUT THERE > > reads.... If that's not control and power to SHAPE thought and opinion what > > is it? > > > > Maybe the previous writer was referring to some other > > > kind of power - in which case I would be grateful to receive a > > > "definition", so to speak, of this power and how it compares to the > > > "definition" I had in mind which, in my own humble opinion, is the sort > > > of power which is contained in the assertion "power corrupts". > > > > > > > The "moderators" power is corrupting and inhibiting the exchange of ideas > > on this newsgroup. When I attempted to bring this to the attention of > > contributors by posting a message to this effect earlier, I was told > > > > THOU SHALT NOT QUESTION THE AUTHORITY AND POWER OF THE "MODERATORS." > > Kitab-i-Oppression, page 999. > > > > > The only person who has any kind of power over my spiritual development > > > is ME. I cannot abdicate that responsibility to someone else. > > > > > > > There's a sense in which you're right. But secular and religious history > > is wracked with the abuse of POWER and the devastating results of it.... > > It always began in little ways.... A little at a time.... People shrugged.... > > Let's not make ways.... Let's build UNITY! > > > > > Loving greetings > > > > > > Sian Smith > > > Wellington > > > New Zealand > > > > -- > > Frederick Glaysher > > Rochester, Michigan USA > > > = End submitted post =========================== YOU DEAR CENSORS have shown your true colors once again. >From - Wed Nov 20 13:57:47 1996 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.66) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Wed, 20 Nov 1996 10:25:30 -0500 Message-ID: <3293247F.2340@moa.net> Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 10:32:15 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Richard C. Detweiler" CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community References: <199611191443.HAA24131@primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Further response-- Your characterization of my comments as sarcastic is ludicrous. One may not be sarcastic in the Baha'i Faith? And you are too determine is toooooo SARCASTIC? Oh God, what a farce! Since you apparently don't understand the passage in question, I'm supposed to water in down for YOUR ignorance! I'm talking about the totalitarianism of the SOVIET UNION which you dangerously come close to. Again, I request that you post my message or pass it on to someone else who is not as fanatical as you. Richard C. Detweiler wrote: > > Dear Mr. Glaysher, > > Thank you for your submission to soc.religion.bahai. > > I ask that you strike the comment "utterly naive" as an attack > on the previous poster. If you would like to say you disagree, > that would be acceptable. > > Also, your sarcastic comments in the following paragraph: > > > Excellent point. A profound moral problem arises here. How can the individual > > maintain the moral strength of character to resist abuse and manipulation when > > power can be wielded in such a way as to undermine that very ability? To > > discredit it. Ban it. Brand it as outlaw, heretic, disruptive, anti-social, > > working against the realization, e.g., of the communist Kingdom of Freedom. > > If you would turn this into a meaningful criticism based on actual events > than the readership could evaluate and enter into a dialog with you on these > events. > > Again, let me make it clear that if you have a grievance with the Faith, > you are free to air it here, but it must be the facts and your reasons for > the grievance presented and not belittling insults, broad stereotypes, and > blatant sarcasm. > > Thank you for participating, > > Dick Detweiler > rdetweil@primenet.com > Co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai > > ================ Begin submitted post ========================= > > > To: soc-religion-bahai@uunet.uu.net > > Path: ppp-pm01-dy-26.ouhub.moa.net > > From: FG <@moa.net> > > Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai > > Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community > > Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 06:10:21 -0500 > > Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A. > > Lines: 78 > > Message-ID: <3291959D.7D9C@moa.net> > > References: <"-ER8GC.A.gTH.UGkiy"@bounty> <56qoi9$rmd@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> > > NNTP-Posting-Host: zeus.moa.net > > Mime-Version: 1.0 > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) > > To: Anne Furlong > > CC: @moa.net > > > > Anne Furlong wrote: > > > > > > The reference to power probably helps poinpoint the difficulty some of > > > the friends have here. The point is that in this Faith, for the first > > > time in religious history, power and authority have been intentionally > > > and effectively severed. The authority to make decisions, to legislate, > > > to guide, rests with the elected institutions of the Faith. However, > > > these institutions - and the individuals who make them up - have no power > > > whatsoever. > > > > "No power whatsoever": Utterly naive.... > > > > [clip] From: FG <@MOA.net> Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Subject: New Sacred Text Unveiled Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 08:43:04 -0500 Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A. Lines: 20 Message-ID: <32945C68.3378@moa.net> References: <56tfo6$cgg@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> <56vdgi$eth@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: zeus.moa.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) CC: @MOA.net X-Mozilla-Status: 0004 Apparently, a new text has been discovered. Or perhaps it has always been there. I, and others, apparently, missed it. It was difficult to see. Alas, I, we, are so woefully human.... Blind and stumbling through this morass.... The crucial passage in the newly discovered Revealed Word is this: THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT SARCASM! There are sensitive plants. We mustn't hurt their feelings. I beg all of you to meditate profoundly on this koan. It has the power to change the world.... -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester, Michigan USA From: FG <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Richard C. Detweiler" CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community References: <199611202214.PAA26784@primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Richard C. Detweiler wrote: > > > > > > > The charter of the newsgroup states that "the Newsgroup will be subject > > > to standards of Baha'i consultation whose salient features include frank > > > yet respectful statement of views and the concerted, open-minded search > > > for truth." It is on this statement in the charter and this statement > > > alone that I have rejected some of your posts. > > > > I don't believe this is true. "Utterly naive" refers to the idea, not to > > its author as an insult. You're the one who has construed that way. I can't > > even understand what could possibly be WRONG with your objection to the > > second passage in the post in question. > > > > Thank you for pointing this out - I hadn't thought of it like that. Then what's YOUR problem. Post it or suppress it. But I > hope you can see that if I (and the other mods) can be confused on this > point, it will probably be the case with many in the readership as well. You're assumption is that OTHERS will be as imperceptive as you. And hence you BAN ME! > Our tendency is to err on the side of not posting things when they may be > misinterpretted by the readership as being attacks or insults. Even after admitting the ERROR is on your part? Not logical. You're trying to justify your heavy-handed will to BAN. That way, > the respectful tone is maintained. There is nothing disrespectful about either passage YOU'VE questioned. Remember that the readership includes > people from all backgrounds and cultures. Irrelevant justification. You're groping for excuses. I have been surprised many times > when seemingly innocuous comments have offended. Nothing would then ever get posted in your scenario. Unless it meets your prejudices. I try to make sure the > chance of this is kept to a minimum. > I don't know that. You're suppression to posting ratio would be required to make that determination; it would have to be independently confirmed. > And, if I may, don't you think "I believe you are being naive because..." > makes your points easier for other to accept and continue to engage you > rather than a brusque "Utterly naive"? Please think about that. I > assume your reason for being here is to share your viewpoint with others. > You sound like a schoolmarm. A self-righteous, prudish old bag. What gives you the right? God's charter? It doesn't come from Him. > > Your attempt to hide behind the newsgroup charter strikes me as a mere > > stratagem to conceal what you're actually doing: CENSORING. > > > > Once again, Mr Glaysher - my job is not to supress ideas but to make sure > those ideas are presented in a respectful manner conducive to frank and > unfettered consultation. > You're completely fettering my consultation. But that's okay. You possess the prescience to know better. Again, you're groping for justification of your suppressing the presentation of my views to others. > I continue to await the chance to post your thoughts in the submittals in > question when they are appropriate for posting to the newsgroup. > Mr. Detweiler, you appear to me to be completely shameless and drunk on your little power to muzzle people who don't echo your opinions. > Dick Detweiler > co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai Again, I ask you to post my message since as you acknowledge above its about IDEAS. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester, Michigan USA From: "Richard C. Detweiler" Message-Id: <199611221548.IAA01560@primenet.com> Subject: Re: New Sacred Text Unveiled To: @MOA.net (Frederick Glaysher) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 08:48:14 -0700 (MST) Cc: srb-mods@bcca.org In-Reply-To: <3295A80D.1168@moa.net> from "Frederick Glaysher" at Nov 22, 96 08:18:05 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Dear Mr. Glaysher, Sorry for the inadvertent send on the last message. The following will not be posted to the newsgroup as it is disrespectful in tone and sarcastic in the extreme. As a Baha'i, perhaps you will get some value out of the following excerpts from Baha'u'llah's Writings. I provide them as insight into why the moderators enforce the policies they have in place. "O ye beloved of the Lord! Commit not that which defileth the limpid stream of love or destroyeth the sweet fragrance of friendship. By the righteousness of the Lord! We were created to show love one to another and not perversity and rancor. Take pride not in love for yourselves but in love for your fellow-creatures. Glory not in love for your country, but in love for all mankind." - Baha'u'llah, Tablets of Baha'u'llah 138 (quoted in "Unrestrained as the Wind", section on "Demonstrating love and fellowship", p 87 ). "Say: Human utterance is an essence which aspireth to exert its influence and needeth moderation. As to its influence, this is conditional upon refinement which in turn is dependent upon hearts which are detached and pure. As to its moderation, this hath to be combined with tact and wisdom as prescribed in the Holy Scriptures and Tablets. Meditate upon that which hath streamed forth from the heaven of the Will of thy Lord, He Who is the Source of all grace, that thou mayest grasp the intended meaning which is enshrined in the sacred depths of the Holy Writings." - Baha'u'llah, Tablet of Wisdom, Tablets of Baha'u'llah, p. 143 "For the tongue is a smouldering fire, and excess of speech a deadly poison. Material fire consumeth the body, whereas the fire of the tongue devoureth both heart and soul. The force of the former lasteth but for a time, whilst the effects of the latter endure a century." - Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 193 Thank you for participating, Dick Detweiler rdetweil@primenet.com Co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai ================ Begin submitted post ========================= > To: soc-religion-bahai@uunet.uu.net > Path: ppp-pm01-dy-11.ouhub.moa.net > From: FG <@MOA.net> > Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai > Subject: New Sacred Text Unveiled > Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 08:18:05 -0500 > Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A. > Lines: 20 > Message-ID: <3295A80D.1168@moa.net> > References: <56vhv1$p1e@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> > NNTP-Posting-Host: zeus.moa.net > Mime-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) > CC: @MOA.net > > Apparently, a new text has been discovered. Or perhaps it has always > been there. I, and others, apparently, missed it. It was difficult > to see. Alas, I, we, are so woefully human.... Blind and stumbling > through this morass.... > > The crucial passage in the newly discovered Revealed Word is this: > > > THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT SARCASM! > > > There are sensitive plants. We mustn't hurt their feelings. > > I beg all of you to meditate profoundly on this koan. It has the > power to change the world.... > > > -- > Frederick Glaysher > Rochester, Michigan USA > ================ End submitted post =========================== >From - Sun Nov 24 10:10:50 1996 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.60) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Sat, 23 Nov 1996 07:34:58 -0500 Message-ID: <3296F108.4BEF@moa.net> Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 07:41:44 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Richard C. Detweiler" CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community References: <199611211540.IAA09540@primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 What I wrote meets the charter of the newsgroup and the "modifications" you want are unnecessary and unjustifiable. You yourself acknowledged your request for "modification" was based on your own misreading and misunderstanding of the post. God save us if the Baha'i Faith comes down to people like you "protecting" us.... I ask you again to post it or pass it on to someone else who's more rational than you. --------------66BCAC671B4-- From - Tue Apr 29 14:03:36 1997 >From deamar@eskimo.com Tue Apr 29 10:00:46 1997 Received: from eskimo.com (deamar@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) with ESMTP id KAA02088 for ; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 10:00:43 -0700 From: Dean Martineau Received: by eskimo.com (8.8.5) id KAA29086; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 10:00:40 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 10:00:40 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199704291700.KAA29086@eskimo.com> To: FG@hotmail.com Subject: Interested in your reply from House of Justice Organization: Eskimo North (206) For-Ever Cc: X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 337 I've been going to write to you for a while to ask that when you receive a reply to your public letter to the House of Justice, I would like to see a copy. If you will be posting it to your newsgroup, I can get it there, otherwise, I would like to see an email copy. It shyould be interesting. Dean Martineau deamar@eskimo.com From - Sun Feb 16 19:37:30 1997 Received: from appsrv.samoatelco.com (208.136.102.34) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Sun, 16 Feb 1997 17:14:35 -0500 Received: from [208.136.102.55] (port55.samoatelco.com) by appsrv.samoatelco.com (Netscape Mail Server v1.1) with SMTP id AAA5344 for <@moa.net>; Sun, 16 Feb 1997 11:22:15 +1100 X-Sender: hymanfam@appsrv.samoatelco.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: @moa.net From: "Bill & Jane Hyman" Subject: Interpretation Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 11:22:15 +1100 Message-ID: <19970216002213.AAA5344@port55.samoatelco.com> X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 421 Dear Fred: Many thanks for your interpretation of the passage I quoted from the Aqdas concerning "liberty" which I considered might support my point of view. As you know we cannot interpret for others, and we could both be right. I think that our interpretations are almost identical but that it is just a matter of degree. My point was basically that we need rules to live by. Best regards, Bill Hyman From - Mon Feb 10 08:11:25 1997 BCC: @MOA.net Message-ID: <32FF1E7D.30A7@moa.net> Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 08:11:25 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: cbstone@phoenix.princeton.edu Subject: Just so you know I'm not a lone wacko Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 2340 I've been getting messages from others who won't come forward too... --- Re: talk.religion.bahai >From "Jeffrey A. Goldberg" Organization MegsInet, Inc. - Midwestern Internet Services Date Sat, 08 Feb 1997 17:39:39 -0600 Newsgroups news.groups Message-ID <32FD0EBB.3F94@megsinet.net> References 1 2 3 4 5 > Frederick Glaysher wrote: > > > > [Please reject or post this message.] > > > > Since a few people have requested examples of censorship on > > soc.religion.bahai, I've posted them to news.groups. The > > file CENSORED#1--S.R.B. is a 740k file. Unless you don't > > mind a long wait, you might want to avoid that one. The > > others are brief excerpts of 10k or so. > > > > Watch for the CFV and please vote YES for the creation of an > > unmoderated, uncensored forum: talk.religion.bahai > > > > -- > > Frederick Glaysher > > Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > I refuse to post on soc.religion.bahai because of the arbitrary and mean-spirited manner of censorship practiced by the moderators. The discussion is so controlled that no self-respecting Baha'i or anyone else should post there. I don't understand the newsgroup creation process, but I support you in your quest for an unmoderated newsgroup. >Thanks for having the courage to say so. Would you consider reposting >this to news.groups so others can read it? Discussion about forming >talk.religion.bahai is supposed to take place there, on >soc.religion.bahai, >or crossposted always to news.groups. >It's very important that people hear srb is "arbitrary and >mean-spirited" >from someone other than myself. I can get sense many think so, but >they're scared to state it..... You have too vote in a week or two for >your opinion to count. Watch for the CFV (Call For Votes). Consider it posted.... arbitrary and mean-spirited they are. The problem with this vote is that all of the people who were long ago fed up with the manner that the baha'i newsgroup has been moderated probably are no longer paying attention to this and therefore you won't reach them. The only ones to consider this are those on the discussion group who do not mind having their thoughts reviewed. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Mon Feb 10 08:15:05 1997 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.47) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Mon, 10 Feb 1997 08:03:53 -0500 Message-ID: <32FF1E7D.30A7@moa.net> Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 08:11:25 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: cbstone@phoenix.princeton.edu Subject: Just so you know I'm not a lone wacko Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 2338 I've been getting messages from others who won't come forward too... --- Re: talk.religion.bahai >From "Jeffrey A. Goldberg" Organization MegsInet, Inc. - Midwestern Internet Services Date Sat, 08 Feb 1997 17:39:39 -0600 Newsgroups news.groups Message-ID <32FD0EBB.3F94@megsinet.net> References 1 2 3 4 5 > Frederick Glaysher wrote: > > > > [Please reject or post this message.] > > > > Since a few people have requested examples of censorship on > > soc.religion.bahai, I've posted them to news.groups. The > > file CENSORED#1--S.R.B. is a 740k file. Unless you don't > > mind a long wait, you might want to avoid that one. The > > others are brief excerpts of 10k or so. > > > > Watch for the CFV and please vote YES for the creation of an > > unmoderated, uncensored forum: talk.religion.bahai > > > > -- > > Frederick Glaysher > > Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > I refuse to post on soc.religion.bahai because of the arbitrary and mean-spirited manner of censorship practiced by the moderators. The discussion is so controlled that no self-respecting Baha'i or anyone else should post there. I don't understand the newsgroup creation process, but I support you in your quest for an unmoderated newsgroup. >Thanks for having the courage to say so. Would you consider reposting >this to news.groups so others can read it? Discussion about forming >talk.religion.bahai is supposed to take place there, on >soc.religion.bahai, >or crossposted always to news.groups. >It's very important that people hear srb is "arbitrary and >mean-spirited" >from someone other than myself. I can get sense many think so, but >they're scared to state it..... You have too vote in a week or two for >your opinion to count. Watch for the CFV (Call For Votes). Consider it posted.... arbitrary and mean-spirited they are. The problem with this vote is that all of the people who were long ago fed up with the manner that the baha'i newsgroup has been moderated probably are no longer paying attention to this and therefore you won't reach them. The only ones to consider this are those on the discussion group who do not mind having their thoughts reviewed. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Mon Feb 10 08:15:07 1997 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.47) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Mon, 10 Feb 1997 08:06:41 -0500 Message-ID: <32FF1F26.56EF@moa.net> Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 08:14:14 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Joshua Kramer Subject: Just so you know I'm not a lone wacko Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 2336 I'm getting messages from others who are afraid to say essentially the same thing in the open... --- >From "Jeffrey A. Goldberg" Organization MegsInet, Inc. - Midwestern Internet Services Date Sat, 08 Feb 1997 17:39:39 -0600 Newsgroups news.groups Message-ID <32FD0EBB.3F94@megsinet.net> References 1 2 3 4 5 > Frederick Glaysher wrote: > > > > [Please reject or post this message.] > > > > Since a few people have requested examples of censorship on > > soc.religion.bahai, I've posted them to news.groups. The > > file CENSORED#1--S.R.B. is a 740k file. Unless you don't > > mind a long wait, you might want to avoid that one. The > > others are brief excerpts of 10k or so. > > > > Watch for the CFV and please vote YES for the creation of an > > unmoderated, uncensored forum: talk.religion.bahai > > > > -- > > Frederick Glaysher > > Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > I refuse to post on soc.religion.bahai because of the arbitrary and mean-spirited manner of censorship practiced by the moderators. The discussion is so controlled that no self-respecting Baha'i or anyone else should post there. I don't understand the newsgroup creation process, but I support you in your quest for an unmoderated newsgroup. >Thanks for having the courage to say so. Would you consider reposting >this to news.groups so others can read it? Discussion about forming >talk.religion.bahai is supposed to take place there, on >soc.religion.bahai, >or crossposted always to news.groups. >It's very important that people hear srb is "arbitrary and >mean-spirited" >from someone other than myself. I can get sense many think so, but >they're scared to state it..... You have too vote in a week or two for >your opinion to count. Watch for the CFV (Call For Votes). Consider it posted.... arbitrary and mean-spirited they are. The problem with this vote is that all of the people who were long ago fed up with the manner that the baha'i newsgroup has been moderated probably are no longer paying attention to this and therefore you won't reach them. The only ones to consider this are those on the discussion group who do not mind having their thoughts reviewed. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Mon Feb 10 08:14:14 1997 BCC: @MOA.net Message-ID: <32FF1F26.56EF@moa.net> Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 08:14:14 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Joshua Kramer Subject: Just so you know I'm not a lone wacko Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 2338 I'm getting messages from others who are afraid to say essentially the same thing in the open... --- >From "Jeffrey A. Goldberg" Organization MegsInet, Inc. - Midwestern Internet Services Date Sat, 08 Feb 1997 17:39:39 -0600 Newsgroups news.groups Message-ID <32FD0EBB.3F94@megsinet.net> References 1 2 3 4 5 > Frederick Glaysher wrote: > > > > [Please reject or post this message.] > > > > Since a few people have requested examples of censorship on > > soc.religion.bahai, I've posted them to news.groups. The > > file CENSORED#1--S.R.B. is a 740k file. Unless you don't > > mind a long wait, you might want to avoid that one. The > > others are brief excerpts of 10k or so. > > > > Watch for the CFV and please vote YES for the creation of an > > unmoderated, uncensored forum: talk.religion.bahai > > > > -- > > Frederick Glaysher > > Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > I refuse to post on soc.religion.bahai because of the arbitrary and mean-spirited manner of censorship practiced by the moderators. The discussion is so controlled that no self-respecting Baha'i or anyone else should post there. I don't understand the newsgroup creation process, but I support you in your quest for an unmoderated newsgroup. >Thanks for having the courage to say so. Would you consider reposting >this to news.groups so others can read it? Discussion about forming >talk.religion.bahai is supposed to take place there, on >soc.religion.bahai, >or crossposted always to news.groups. >It's very important that people hear srb is "arbitrary and >mean-spirited" >from someone other than myself. I can get sense many think so, but >they're scared to state it..... You have too vote in a week or two for >your opinion to count. Watch for the CFV (Call For Votes). Consider it posted.... arbitrary and mean-spirited they are. The problem with this vote is that all of the people who were long ago fed up with the manner that the baha'i newsgroup has been moderated probably are no longer paying attention to this and therefore you won't reach them. The only ones to consider this are those on the discussion group who do not mind having their thoughts reviewed. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Wed Apr 16 07:56:23 1997 >From FG@hotmail.com Wed Apr 16 04:51:12 1997 Received: (qmail 835 invoked from network); 16 Apr 1997 11:47:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO default) (199.179.42.123) by hm3.hotmail.com with SMTP; 16 Apr 1997 11:47:54 -0000 Message-ID: <3354BD1F.947@hotmail.com> Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 07:50:55 -0400 From: FG Reply-To: FG@hotmail.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: misc.misc,bit.admin,talk.religion.misc CC: 3arb@qlink.queensu.ca, 3fal@qlink.queensu.ca, 3sv13@qlink.queensu.ca, 4emb1@qlink.queensu.ca, 72110.2126@compuserve.com, ab248@freenet.carleton.ca Subject: Listserv: alt.religion.bahai References: <334FCA59.698C@cheerful.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 1605 It appears that setting up a listserv for alt.religion.bahai might require someone else sponsor it who voted YES. I'm posting and emailing this to everyone on the YES list for talk.religion.bahai If you're willing to help make it possible for others to gain access to the discussion on alt.religion.bahai, which, let's face it, has yet to begin really, please email me directly: FG@hotmail.com Once the listserv is set up, there's no daily or regular maintenance involved. It's merely a matter of finding an institution to host it. -- >Jim McIntosh wrote: > > > Frederick Glaysher wrote: > > > > Okay, sorry again. I assume I get a list from bit.admin? And then > > you connect it? I've read the instructions, but I fear I'm what > > is known as low tech.... > > You need to find a list somewhere. There doesn't seem to be a group > of people who regularly read bit.admin, so I wouldn't hold out thinking > that someone reading your post in bit.admin will be able to give you > a list. Check with those that were in favor of the newsgroup to see > if any of them are at a university or company which allows people to > request mailing lists. You can also check out L-Soft's very reasonable > commercial listserv service at https://www.lsoft.com > > Jim McIntosh Personal Mail: Jim@McIntosh.org > American University AU Mail: jim@american.edu > Washington, DC USA 20016-8019 > The path of service leads from charity to justice. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Thu Apr 17 07:12:28 1997 >From FG@hotmail.com Wed Apr 16 06:41:05 1997 Received: (qmail 25306 invoked from network); 16 Apr 1997 13:39:28 -0000 Received: from ts?rh.metronet.lib.mi.us (HELO default) (199.179.42.20) by hm2.hotmail.com with SMTP; 16 Apr 1997 13:39:28 -0000 Message-ID: <3354D665.66CB@hotmail.com> Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 09:38:45 -0400 From: FG Reply-To: FG@hotmail.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: misc.misc CC: 3arb@qlink.queensu.ca, 3fal@qlink.queensu.ca, anser@kamla.brain.net.pk, ansharif@AOL.COM, priven@best.com, arm@chass.utoronto.ca, afshin.afrashteh@utoronto.ca, e8727192@tuwien.ac.at, matuli_a@marlin.navsea.navy.mil, iskandar@EESUN2.tamu.edu, forumbahai@es.co.nz, allenp5@lesbois.com, Rafiq@Colorado.edu, mughal@alumni.caltech.edu, babak.mohajerin@aus.deuba.com, batkhan@ihug.co.nz, BobSolem@aol.com, bon_giovanni@juno.com, bmathieu@micron.net, BrentReed@aol.com, bgraham@emerald.tufts.edu, BugDaddy@cris.com, woodgold@seismo.nrcan.gc.ca, chughes@commnet.edu, estep@hotmail.com, cjdpcssd@mail.ims-1.com, clarsen@cfd.jsc.nasa.gov, dp10006@thor.cam.ac.uk, positive@marsweb.com, dan@cthulhu.control.com, DaveCrnll@aol.com, dbowie@sas.upenn.edu, 72110.2126@compuserve.com, deadlock@one.net, mirele@xmission.com, dfbaker@panix.com, DeDanan@aol.com, Dlandhill@aol.com, freedman@netmedia.net.il, andrew@utcc.utoronto.ca, hmirza@yesic.com, irauf@Phys.UAlberta.CA, ejohnsto@atcon.com, gaillard@panix.com, EdvardJ@simi.is, ab248@freenet.carleton.ca, 4emb1@qlink.queensu.ca Subject: Listserv: alt.religion.bahai References: <33484883.54A9@teleport.com> <334B511C.6C5F@teleport.com> <334C495C.549E@teleport.com> <1188.7039T652T2279@abarnett.demon.co.uk> <334DB55E.3B82@teleport.com> <33500D63.45A21C61@Auburn.campus.mci.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 1689 It appears that setting up a listserv for alt.religion.bahai might require someone else sponsor it who voted YES. I'm posting and emailing this to everyone on the YES list for talk.religion.bahai If you're willing to help make it possible for others to gain access to the discussion on alt.religion.bahai, which, let's face it, has yet to begin really, please email me directly: FG@hotmail.com Once the listserv is set up, there's no daily or regular maintenance involved. Basically, all you have to do is ask your system administrator to sponser it. It's merely a matter of finding an institution to host it. -- >Jim McIntosh wrote: > > > Frederick Glaysher wrote: > > > > Okay, sorry again. I assume I get a list from bit.admin? And then > > you connect it? I've read the instructions, but I fear I'm what > > is known as low tech.... > > You need to find a list somewhere. There doesn't seem to be a group > of people who regularly read bit.admin, so I wouldn't hold out thinking > that someone reading your post in bit.admin will be able to give you > a list. Check with those that were in favor of the newsgroup to see > if any of them are at a university or company which allows people to > request mailing lists. You can also check out L-Soft's very reasonable > commercial listserv service at https://www.lsoft.com > > Jim McIntosh Personal Mail: Jim@McIntosh.org > American University AU Mail: jim@american.edu > Washington, DC USA 20016-8019 > The path of service leads from charity to justice. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Thu Apr 17 07:12:22 1997 >From FG@hotmail.com Wed Apr 16 06:44:21 1997 Received: (qmail 1358 invoked from network); 16 Apr 1997 13:41:30 -0000 Received: from ts?rh.metronet.lib.mi.us (HELO default) (199.179.42.20) by hm3.hotmail.com with SMTP; 16 Apr 1997 13:41:30 -0000 Message-ID: <3354D7A6.1C42@hotmail.com> Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 09:44:06 -0400 From: FG Reply-To: FG@hotmail.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc CC: pierceed@sswdserver.sswd.csus.edu, sindiogi@nmsu.edu, koubae@rmi.net, edn@msn.fullfeed.com, uppal@acsu.buffalo.edu, fateh.ahmad@cressoft.com.pk, fran@crhc.uiuc.edu, fbaker@ncsa.uiuc.edu, Gabriel.Salman.Lenz@directory.Reed.EDU, gedaliah@panix.com, rsaltd@wctc.net, wgilmore@cris.com, ggw@wolves.durham.nc.us, seeker@leland.stanford.edu, hamid01@paknet1.ptc.pk, bhayee@cyberus.ca, htana@ee.mcgill.ca, humayun.ahmed@cressoft.com.pk, ibraheem.malik@cressoft.com.pk, iahmad@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca, pimentel@ultranet.com, jason.roberts@mail.admin.wisc.edu, usdaebcl@hol.gr, jmalik@mailstorm.dot.gov, jgoldberg@megsinet.net, JKLintzBFA@aol.com, guardian@iinet.net.au, johnd@northlink.com, jdg@rahul.net, jwalbrid@indiana.edu, johnn@jolt.mpx.com.au, JohnWrldPc@aol.com, maitreya@worldnet.att.net, jrcole@umich.edu, pjohnson@leo.vsla.edu, katracha@juno.com, seeker@indiana.edu, keillan@quest.cc.purdue.edu, khan@kherps.brain.com.pk, kibo@dhp.com, kjohnsto@Fox.nstn.ca, LaAeterna@aol.com Subject: Listserv: alt.religion.bahai References: <33484883.54A9@teleport.com> <334B511C.6C5F@teleport.com> <334C495C.549E@teleport.com> <1188.7039T652T2279@abarnett.demon.co.uk> <334DB55E.3B82@teleport.com> <33500D63.45A21C61@Auburn.campus.mci.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 1689 It appears that setting up a listserv for alt.religion.bahai might require someone else sponsor it who voted YES. I'm posting and emailing this to everyone on the YES list for talk.religion.bahai If you're willing to help make it possible for others to gain access to the discussion on alt.religion.bahai, which, let's face it, has yet to begin really, please email me directly: FG@hotmail.com Once the listserv is set up, there's no daily or regular maintenance involved. Basically, all you have to do is ask your system administrator to sponser it. It's merely a matter of finding an institution to host it. -- >Jim McIntosh wrote: > > > Frederick Glaysher wrote: > > > > Okay, sorry again. I assume I get a list from bit.admin? And then > > you connect it? I've read the instructions, but I fear I'm what > > is known as low tech.... > > You need to find a list somewhere. There doesn't seem to be a group > of people who regularly read bit.admin, so I wouldn't hold out thinking > that someone reading your post in bit.admin will be able to give you > a list. Check with those that were in favor of the newsgroup to see > if any of them are at a university or company which allows people to > request mailing lists. You can also check out L-Soft's very reasonable > commercial listserv service at https://www.lsoft.com > > Jim McIntosh Personal Mail: Jim@McIntosh.org > American University AU Mail: jim@american.edu > Washington, DC USA 20016-8019 > The path of service leads from charity to justice. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Thu Apr 17 07:12:20 1997 >From woodgold@seismo.nrcan.gc.ca Wed Apr 16 06:47:55 1997 Received: from saw19.nrcan.gc.ca by richter (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA17810; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 09:46:42 -0400 Received: by saw19.nrcan.gc.ca (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA10894; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 09:45:58 -0400 Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 09:45:58 -0400 From: woodgold@seismo.nrcan.gc.ca (Catherine woodgold) Message-Id: <199704161345.JAA10894@saw19.nrcan.gc.ca> To: FG@hotmail.com Subject: Re: Listserv: alt.religion.bahai Cc: woodgold@seismo.nrcan.gc.ca X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Content-Length: 817 I'm interested in supporting (i.e. voting for) a NEWSGROUP such as alt.religion.bahai. I might be able to get a friend's company to sponsor it; he's not a Baha'i, and I'm not sure if he can start alt.* newsgroups, but I can ask; I think I'll wait first to see if you get a response from someone else. I probably wouldn't actually read the newsgroup. As far as a LISTSERV is concerned, hmm, I guess I could ask the same friend who might or might not do it; he has created both newsgroups and listservers, and runs listservers from his computer. Again, I'll wait. But again, I probably wouldn't actually participate on the list. But aren't you confusing newsgroups and listservs? A listserv wouldn't normally have a name like alt.religion.bahai; that sounds like a newsgroup name. Cathy From - Thu Apr 17 07:54:26 1997 BCC: FG@hotmail.com Message-ID: <33560F72.354B@hotmail.com> Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 07:54:26 -0400 From: FG Reply-To: FG@hotmail.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Catherine woodgold Subject: Re: Listserv: alt.religion.bahai References: <199704161345.JAA10894@saw19.nrcan.gc.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Content-Length: 1799 Catherine woodgold wrote: > > I'm interested in supporting (i.e. voting for) a NEWSGROUP > such as alt.religion.bahai. I might be able to get a friend's > company to sponsor it; he's not a Baha'i, and I'm not sure > if he can start alt.* newsgroups, but I can ask; I think I'll > wait first to see if you get a response from someone else. > I probably wouldn't actually read the newsgroup. > > As far as a LISTSERV is concerned, hmm, I guess I could ask > the same friend who might or might not do it; he has created > both newsgroups and listservers, and runs listservers from his > computer. Again, I'll wait. But again, I probably wouldn't > actually participate on the list. > > But aren't you confusing newsgroups and listservs? A listserv > wouldn't normally have a name like alt.religion.bahai; that > sounds like a newsgroup name. > > Cathy Thanks for the offer of help. What's needed is an institution or Internet Service Provider to sponsor a LISTSERV that can then be a GATEWAY connected to alt.religion.bahai Once that's done, anyone with email capabilities send and receive messagesfrom alt.religion.bahai Could you ask the help people or administrators your know if they'll sponsor a LISTSERV? They should understand the technical side. They don't actually connect it themselves to alt.religion.bahai, someone else does that. All they do is set up the LISTSERV. Are you able at the present moment to access alt.religion.bahai? Did you know it was created after talk.religion.bahai was blasted out of cyberspace? Since alt.religion.bahai has limited access, not all systems offer it, many can not receive. The LISTSERV would be a way around that technical limitation. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Thu Apr 17 08:13:24 1997 >From FG@hotmail.com Thu Apr 17 04:53:29 1997 Received: (qmail 6033 invoked from network); 17 Apr 1997 11:51:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO default) (199.179.42.118) by hm3.hotmail.com with SMTP; 17 Apr 1997 11:51:22 -0000 Message-ID: <33560F72.354B@hotmail.com> Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 07:54:26 -0400 From: FG Reply-To: FG@hotmail.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Catherine woodgold Subject: Re: Listserv: alt.religion.bahai References: <199704161345.JAA10894@saw19.nrcan.gc.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Content-Length: 1797 Catherine woodgold wrote: > > I'm interested in supporting (i.e. voting for) a NEWSGROUP > such as alt.religion.bahai. I might be able to get a friend's > company to sponsor it; he's not a Baha'i, and I'm not sure > if he can start alt.* newsgroups, but I can ask; I think I'll > wait first to see if you get a response from someone else. > I probably wouldn't actually read the newsgroup. > > As far as a LISTSERV is concerned, hmm, I guess I could ask > the same friend who might or might not do it; he has created > both newsgroups and listservers, and runs listservers from his > computer. Again, I'll wait. But again, I probably wouldn't > actually participate on the list. > > But aren't you confusing newsgroups and listservs? A listserv > wouldn't normally have a name like alt.religion.bahai; that > sounds like a newsgroup name. > > Cathy Thanks for the offer of help. What's needed is an institution or Internet Service Provider to sponsor a LISTSERV that can then be a GATEWAY connected to alt.religion.bahai Once that's done, anyone with email capabilities send and receive messagesfrom alt.religion.bahai Could you ask the help people or administrators your know if they'll sponsor a LISTSERV? They should understand the technical side. They don't actually connect it themselves to alt.religion.bahai, someone else does that. All they do is set up the LISTSERV. Are you able at the present moment to access alt.religion.bahai? Did you know it was created after talk.religion.bahai was blasted out of cyberspace? Since alt.religion.bahai has limited access, not all systems offer it, many can not receive. The LISTSERV would be a way around that technical limitation. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Thu Apr 17 07:12:31 1997 >From FG@hotmail.com Wed Apr 16 06:47:42 1997 Received: (qmail 1408 invoked from network); 16 Apr 1997 13:44:21 -0000 Received: from ts?rh.metronet.lib.mi.us (HELO default) (199.179.42.20) by hm3.hotmail.com with SMTP; 16 Apr 1997 13:44:21 -0000 Message-ID: <3354D85A.3661@hotmail.com> Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 09:47:06 -0400 From: FG Reply-To: FG@hotmail.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage CC: lilandbr@scn.org, lisarm@cei.net, aslam@ulysses.att.com, msabet@mail.net, MahmudTaha@aol.com, mahsa@psy.uwa.edu.au, mansur.sheikh@cressoft.com.pk, mlp@sover.net, masnas@paknet1.ptc.pk, Massoud.Ajami@sdsu.edu, techind@ilcnet.com, Member1700@aol.com, bn872@freenet.carleton.ca, mibon@mailhost.cinet.co.cn, mbkafes@bestweb.net, naveed@nather.brain.com.pk, mubasher@ffclhr.brain.com.pk, aslam@openix.com, nahil@ece.utexas.edu, Nefratiri@aol.com, nkeiths@wavefront.com, obfusa@mack.rt66.com, olav@viking.mv.com, paustin@astro.ocis.temple.edu, pjktg@itis.com, Peace144@aol.com, rosss@u.washington.edu, rafiq@ksc9.th.com, Raymond.E.Armstrong@ism.net, regmor@rof.net, rehmans@advocate.sdnpk.undp.org, RMckin6046@aol.com, fstrpba@umac.mo, white-wolf-arts@juno.com, rodney684@silicon.email.net, rbic@unix.infoserve.net, rtower@bwc.org, lbhollin@uxmail.ust.hk, think@ucla.edu, ahmadi@why.net, schand+@andrew.cmu.edu, mrscotty@minn.net, shafique@compuserve.com Subject: Listserv: alt.religion.bahai References: <333ee4d9.3328235@news.mindspring.com> <5hrklt$8jq$1@kiki.bway.net> <3341be26.1516600@news.mindspring.com> <5hv4d5$13t@lois.zippo.com> <33444c31.162080058@news.mindspring.com> <5i34pu$mu2@lacy.zippo.com> <3345CA11.688@worldnet.att.net> <5i5pk9$1kb@lacy.zippo.com> <3347C0B4.7915@worldnet.att.net> <5i8s66$hp5@lois.zippo.com> <334A425A.2158@worldnet.att.net> <5ie10i$695@lacy.zippo.com> <334C3118.7161@worldnet.att.net> <5ijk3j$ck3@lacy.zippo.com> <334E3A4C.59CF@worldnet.att.net> <334F2AE6.F43@sprintmail.com> <5iod3e$7pj@lacy.zippo.com> <33510C77.9CC@concentric.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0004 Content-Length: 1689 It appears that setting up a listserv for alt.religion.bahai might require someone else sponsor it who voted YES. I'm posting and emailing this to everyone on the YES list for talk.religion.bahai If you're willing to help make it possible for others to gain access to the discussion on alt.religion.bahai, which, let's face it, has yet to begin really, please email me directly: FG@hotmail.com Once the listserv is set up, there's no daily or regular maintenance involved. Basically, all you have to do is ask your system administrator to sponser it. It's merely a matter of finding an institution to host it. -- >Jim McIntosh wrote: > > > Frederick Glaysher wrote: > > > > Okay, sorry again. I assume I get a list from bit.admin? And then > > you connect it? I've read the instructions, but I fear I'm what > > is known as low tech.... > > You need to find a list somewhere. There doesn't seem to be a group > of people who regularly read bit.admin, so I wouldn't hold out thinking > that someone reading your post in bit.admin will be able to give you > a list. Check with those that were in favor of the newsgroup to see > if any of them are at a university or company which allows people to > request mailing lists. You can also check out L-Soft's very reasonable > commercial listserv service at https://www.lsoft.com > > Jim McIntosh Personal Mail: Jim@McIntosh.org > American University AU Mail: jim@american.edu > Washington, DC USA 20016-8019 > The path of service leads from charity to justice. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Thu Apr 17 07:12:25 1997 >From FG@hotmail.com Wed Apr 16 06:49:32 1997 Received: (qmail 1463 invoked from network); 16 Apr 1997 13:46:41 -0000 Received: from ts?rh.metronet.lib.mi.us (HELO default) (199.179.42.20) by hm3.hotmail.com with SMTP; 16 Apr 1997 13:46:41 -0000 Message-ID: <3354D8E1.67BC@hotmail.com> Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 09:49:21 -0400 From: FG Reply-To: FG@hotmail.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: soc.religion.unitarian-univ CC: samin@phnet.sph.jhu.edu, sharir@acel.net.au, shank210@clubhouse.email.net, Sharaf94@aol.com, Shenassa@worldnet.at.net, "spanky@9114"@aol.com, st010517@brownvm.brown.edu, ssemler@datalynx.com, stuart@cosc.canterbury.ac.nz, ss@look1.apmaths.uwo.ca, soleman@unixg.ubc.ca, finc27@pop.uni-dortmund.de, fnord@odyssee.net, trbutl@most.fw.hac.com, maley@ism.net, thriley@ccia.com, paxil@cancom.net, uzair@xds.brain.com.pk, 3sv12@qlink.queensu.ca, VWoodsong@aol.com, sscholl@jeffnet.org Subject: Listserv: alt.religion.bahai References: <333ee4d9.3328235@news.mindspring.com> <5hrklt$8jq$1@kiki.bway.net> <3341be26.1516600@news.mindspring.com> <5hv4d5$13t@lois.zippo.com> <33444c31.162080058@news.mindspring.com> <5i34pu$mu2@lacy.zippo.com> <3345CA11.688@worldnet.att.net> <5i5pk9$1kb@lacy.zippo.com> <3347C0B4.7915@worldnet.att.net> <5i8s66$hp5@lois.zippo.com> <334A425A.2158@worldnet.att.net> <5ie10i$695@lacy.zippo.com> <334C3118.7161@worldnet.att.net> <5ijk3j$ck3@lacy.zippo.com> <334E3A4C.59CF@worldnet.att.net> <334F2AE6.F43@sprintmail.com> <5iod3e$7pj@lacy.zippo.com> <33510C77.9CC@concentric.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0004 Content-Length: 1689 It appears that setting up a listserv for alt.religion.bahai might require someone else sponsor it who voted YES. I'm posting and emailing this to everyone on the YES list for talk.religion.bahai If you're willing to help make it possible for others to gain access to the discussion on alt.religion.bahai, which, let's face it, has yet to begin really, please email me directly: FG@hotmail.com Once the listserv is set up, there's no daily or regular maintenance involved. Basically, all you have to do is ask your system administrator to sponser it. It's merely a matter of finding an institution to host it. -- >Jim McIntosh wrote: > > > Frederick Glaysher wrote: > > > > Okay, sorry again. I assume I get a list from bit.admin? And then > > you connect it? I've read the instructions, but I fear I'm what > > is known as low tech.... > > You need to find a list somewhere. There doesn't seem to be a group > of people who regularly read bit.admin, so I wouldn't hold out thinking > that someone reading your post in bit.admin will be able to give you > a list. Check with those that were in favor of the newsgroup to see > if any of them are at a university or company which allows people to > request mailing lists. You can also check out L-Soft's very reasonable > commercial listserv service at https://www.lsoft.com > > Jim McIntosh Personal Mail: Jim@McIntosh.org > American University AU Mail: jim@american.edu > Washington, DC USA 20016-8019 > The path of service leads from charity to justice. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Thu Apr 17 07:12:34 1997 >From gaillard@panix.com Wed Apr 16 07:21:10 1997 Received: from [166.84.196.111] (gaillard.dialup.access.net [166.84.196.111]) by mail2.panix.com (8.8.5/8.7.1/PanixM1.0) with SMTP id KAA24516 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 10:13:46 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: gaillard@popserver.panix.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 10:28:08 -0400 To: FG@hotmail.com From: gaillard@panix.com (Ed Gaillard) Subject: Re: Listserv: alt.religion.bahai X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Content-Length: 2199 You *should not* use the voting list as a mailing list. The list is made public only for use in detecting possible vote fraud. I voted for t.r.b, yes; mostly because I was appalled at the s.r.b moderators' having changed the charter by fiat. But your seeming cluelessness about USenet both during the debate and especially after the vote, which you are continuing by this abuse of the voting list, have certainly given me second thoughts. -ed g. >It appears that setting up a listserv for alt.religion.bahai might >require someone else sponsor it who voted YES. I'm posting and emailing >this to everyone on the YES list for talk.religion.bahai If you're >willing to help make it possible for others to gain access to the >discussion on alt.religion.bahai, which, let's face it, has yet to >begin really, please email me directly: FG@hotmail.com > >Once the listserv is set up, there's no daily or regular maintenance >involved. Basically, all you have to do is ask your system >administrator to sponser it. It's merely a matter of finding an >institution to host it. > >-- >>Jim McIntosh wrote: >> >> > Frederick Glaysher wrote: >> > >> > Okay, sorry again. I assume I get a list from bit.admin? And then >> > you connect it? I've read the instructions, but I fear I'm what >> > is known as low tech.... >> >> You need to find a list somewhere. There doesn't seem to be a group >> of people who regularly read bit.admin, so I wouldn't hold out thinking >> that someone reading your post in bit.admin will be able to give you >> a list. Check with those that were in favor of the newsgroup to see >> if any of them are at a university or company which allows people to >> request mailing lists. You can also check out L-Soft's very reasonable >> commercial listserv service at https://www.lsoft.com >> >> Jim McIntosh Personal Mail: Jim@McIntosh.org >> American University AU Mail: jim@american.edu >> Washington, DC USA 20016-8019 >> The path of service leads from charity to justice. > >-- >Frederick Glaysher >Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Thu Apr 17 07:12:36 1997 >From brentreed@aol.com Wed Apr 16 08:31:24 1997 Received: (from root@localhost) by emout17.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id LAA14623 for FG@hotmail.com; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 11:29:29 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 11:29:29 -0400 (EDT) From: BrentReed@aol.com Message-ID: <970416112502_514633450@emout17.mail.aol.com> To: FG@hotmail.com Subject: Re: Listserv: alt.religion.bahai X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Content-Length: 274 Dear Frederick: How do you "make it possible for others to gain access to the alt.bahai.religion discussion?" Please count me in as someone who wants the newsgroup, and I will do anything I can do to help. I voted YES for talk.religion.bahai. Thanks, Brent From - Thu Apr 17 07:12:37 1997 >From ansharif@aol.com Wed Apr 16 10:17:02 1997 Received: (from root@localhost) by emout05.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id NAA06536 for FG@hotmail.com; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 13:14:40 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 13:14:40 -0400 (EDT) From: ANSHARIF@aol.com Message-ID: <970416131304_-334536538@emout05.mail.aol.com> To: FG@hotmail.com Subject: Re: Listserv: alt.religion.bahai X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Content-Length: 176 May peace be with you. I'm ready to be a part of the process but I'm not up to mark on tech. issues. Glad to follow clear instructions. Aisha Sharif ANSharif@AOL.com From - Thu Apr 17 07:50:16 1997 BCC: FG@hotmail.com Message-ID: <33560E77.6101@hotmail.com> Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 07:50:16 -0400 From: FG Reply-To: FG@hotmail.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ANSHARIF@aol.com Subject: Re: Listserv: alt.religion.bahai References: <970416131304_-334536538@emout05.mail.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Content-Length: 958 ANSHARIF@aol.com wrote: > > May peace be with you. > > I'm ready to be a part of the process but I'm not up to mark on tech. issues. > Glad to follow clear instructions. > > Aisha Sharif ANSharif@AOL.com Thanks for the offer of help. What's needed is an institution, ISP, or AOL to sponsor a LISTSERV that can then be a GATEWAY connected to alt.religion.bahai Once that's done, anyone with email capabilities send and receive messages from alt.religion.bahai Could you ask the help people or administrators of AOL if they'll sponsor a LISTSERV? They should understand the technical side. They don't actually connect it themselves to alt.religion.bahai, someone else does that. All they do is set up the LISTSERV? Are you able at the present moment to access alt.religion.bahai? Did you know it was created after talk.religion.bahai was blasted out of cyberspace? -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Thu Apr 17 09:15:05 1997 >From FG@hotmail.com Thu Apr 17 04:50:07 1997 Received: (qmail 6011 invoked from network); 17 Apr 1997 11:47:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO default) (199.179.42.118) by hm3.hotmail.com with SMTP; 17 Apr 1997 11:47:11 -0000 Message-ID: <33560E77.6101@hotmail.com> Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 07:50:16 -0400 From: FG Reply-To: FG@hotmail.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ANSHARIF@aol.com Subject: Re: Listserv: alt.religion.bahai References: <970416131304_-334536538@emout05.mail.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Content-Length: 956 ANSHARIF@aol.com wrote: > > May peace be with you. > > I'm ready to be a part of the process but I'm not up to mark on tech. issues. > Glad to follow clear instructions. > > Aisha Sharif ANSharif@AOL.com Thanks for the offer of help. What's needed is an institution, ISP, or AOL to sponsor a LISTSERV that can then be a GATEWAY connected to alt.religion.bahai Once that's done, anyone with email capabilities send and receive messages from alt.religion.bahai Could you ask the help people or administrators of AOL if they'll sponsor a LISTSERV? They should understand the technical side. They don't actually connect it themselves to alt.religion.bahai, someone else does that. All they do is set up the LISTSERV? Are you able at the present moment to access alt.religion.bahai? Did you know it was created after talk.religion.bahai was blasted out of cyberspace? -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Thu Apr 17 07:12:38 1997 >From johnwrldpc@aol.com Wed Apr 16 11:55:36 1997 Received: (from root@localhost) by emout28.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id OAA18636 for FG@hotmail.com; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 14:56:05 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 14:56:05 -0400 (EDT) From: JohnWrldPc@aol.com Message-ID: <970416145222_-2036986756@emout08.mail.aol.com> To: FG@hotmail.com Subject: Re: Listserv: alt.religion.bahai X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Content-Length: 504 I do not really understand what is going on here. It seems to be a matter of money to pay someone to host this newsgroup. I looked at the Lsoft web page but I saw no reference to newsgroup technology. Depending on the cost, I would possibly be interested in financing the server but I have no idea where to find one or what my responsibilities would be after committing to the payments. I want to see this newsgroup set up and functioning. Tell me specifically what I can do. John From - Thu Apr 17 07:47:07 1997 BCC: FG@hotmail.com Message-ID: <33560DBB.4ADC@hotmail.com> Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 07:47:07 -0400 From: FG Reply-To: FG@hotmail.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: JohnWrldPc@aol.com Subject: Re: Listserv: alt.religion.bahai References: <970416145222_-2036986756@emout08.mail.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Content-Length: 1479 JohnWrldPc@aol.com wrote: > > I do not really understand what is going on here. > > It seems to be a matter of money to pay someone to host this newsgroup. I > looked at the Lsoft web page but I saw no reference to newsgroup technology. > > Depending on the cost, I would possibly be interested in financing the > server but I have no idea where to find one or what my responsibilities would > be after committing to the payments. > > I want to see this newsgroup set up and functioning. > > Tell me specifically what I can do. > > John We definitely don't want to spend money on this. We ought to be able to find someone to support it for free. Thanks for the offer of help. What's needed is an institution, ISP, or AOL to sponsor a LISTSERV that can then be a GATEWAY connected to alt.religion.bahai Once that's done, anyone with email capabilities send and receive messages from alt.religion.bahai Could you ask the help people or administrators of AOL if they'll sponsor a LISTSERV? They should understand the technical side. They don't actually connect it themselves to alt.religion.bahai, someone else does that. All they do is set up the LISTSERV. Are you able at the present moment to access alt.religion.bahai? Did you know it was created after talk.religion.bahai was blasted out of cyberspace? Or do you know anyone at a university that might sponsor it? -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Thu Apr 17 08:13:19 1997 >From FG@hotmail.com Thu Apr 17 04:46:33 1997 Received: (qmail 5986 invoked from network); 17 Apr 1997 11:44:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO default) (199.179.42.118) by hm3.hotmail.com with SMTP; 17 Apr 1997 11:44:03 -0000 Message-ID: <33560DBB.4ADC@hotmail.com> Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 07:47:07 -0400 From: FG Reply-To: FG@hotmail.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: JohnWrldPc@aol.com Subject: Re: Listserv: alt.religion.bahai References: <970416145222_-2036986756@emout08.mail.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Content-Length: 1479 JohnWrldPc@aol.com wrote: > > I do not really understand what is going on here. > > It seems to be a matter of money to pay someone to host this newsgroup. I > looked at the Lsoft web page but I saw no reference to newsgroup technology. > > Depending on the cost, I would possibly be interested in financing the > server but I have no idea where to find one or what my responsibilities would > be after committing to the payments. > > I want to see this newsgroup set up and functioning. > > Tell me specifically what I can do. > > John We definitely don't want to spend money on this. We ought to be able to find someone to support it for free. Thanks for the offer of help. What's needed is an institution, ISP, or AOL to sponsor a LISTSERV that can then be a GATEWAY connected to alt.religion.bahai Once that's done, anyone with email capabilities send and receive messages from alt.religion.bahai Could you ask the help people or administrators of AOL if they'll sponsor a LISTSERV? They should understand the technical side. They don't actually connect it themselves to alt.religion.bahai, someone else does that. All they do is set up the LISTSERV. Are you able at the present moment to access alt.religion.bahai? Did you know it was created after talk.religion.bahai was blasted out of cyberspace? Or do you know anyone at a university that might sponsor it? -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Thu Apr 17 07:12:40 1997 >From matuli_a@marlin.navsea.navy.mil Wed Apr 16 14:37:25 1997 Received: by marlin.navsea.navy.mil (5.65c/1.921207) id AA14660; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 17:36:34 -0400 From: matuli_a@marlin.navsea.navy.mil (Alex Matulich 03T1) Message-Id: <199704162136.AA14660@marlin.navsea.navy.mil> Subject: Re: Listserv: alt.religion.bahai To: FG@hotmail.com Date: Wed, 16 Apr 97 17:36:33 EDT In-Reply-To: <3354D665.66CB@hotmail.com>; from "Frederick Glaysher" at Apr 16, 97 9:38 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 07.05.00.00 (2.3 PL11)] X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Content-Length: 520 >It appears that setting up a listserv for alt.religion.bahai might >require someone else sponsor it who voted YES. I'm posting and emailing Sorry. As a government site, we cannot sponsor the list. That would be an unconstitutional misuse of government facilities. -- "These are MY words, not my employer's" /| -- Alex Matulich -- __. __=#|| ___ _o-- matuli_a@marlin.navsea.navy.mil ____##_/_____|==###===###____ \____________________________\ From - Thu Apr 17 07:12:44 1997 >From lilandbr@scn.org Wed Apr 16 18:59:31 1997 Received: from scn.org (lilandbr@scn [198.137.188.24]) by scn4.scn.org (8.7.5/8.7.5.sun4) with ESMTP id SAA01030; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 18:54:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from lilandbr@localhost) by scn.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) id SAA00274; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 18:59:09 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 18:59:09 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199704170159.SAA00274@scn.org> From: lilandbr@scn.org (Leland Bryant Ross) To: FG@hotmail.com Subject: Re: Listserv: alt.religion.bahai Cc: lilandbr@scn.org Reply-To: lilandbr@scn.org X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Content-Length: 815 >> > Frederick Glaysher wrote: >> > >> > Okay, sorry again. I assume I get a list from bit.admin? And then >> > you connect it? I've read the instructions, but I fear I'm what >> > is known as low tech.... Regrettably, I am what is known as even lower-tech! I very much doubt if my server will offer me the new Bahai group, even if I ask. Plus, I'm a Baptist. I'm sure the Bahai cyberfolks wouldn't mind a Baptist sponsor, but what would *God* think? ;-) Blessings, and luck, Leland B. Ross -- Liland Brajant ROS' / Leland B. ROSS - Delegito de UEA en Seatlo, Usono 204 N 39th St (aux PO Box 30091) Hejmo de Mikrosofto kaj Boeingo Seattle, WA 98103 Usono/E'tats-Unis Nirvano kaj la Universa Centro! Tel. (1-206)633-2434 * Seatla Esperanto-Societo bonvenigas vin vizite! From - Thu Apr 17 07:12:48 1997 >From member1700@aol.com Wed Apr 16 22:46:34 1997 Received: (from root@localhost) by emout15.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id BAA28647 for FG@hotmail.com; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 01:47:03 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 01:47:03 -0400 (EDT) From: Member1700@aol.com Message-ID: <970417014703_572200875@emout15.mail.aol.com> To: FG@hotmail.com Subject: Re: Listserv: alt.religion.bahai X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Content-Length: 239 Dear Frederick: I was interested that you could access the e-mail addresses of those who voted yes. Do you also have a list of the 600 or so that voted no? Can you send it to me? Thanks very much. Regards, Tony Lee From - Thu Apr 17 07:48:57 1997 BCC: FG@hotmail.com Message-ID: <33560E29.70B2@hotmail.com> Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 07:48:57 -0400 From: FG Reply-To: FG@hotmail.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Member1700@aol.com Subject: Re: Listserv: alt.religion.bahai References: <970417014703_572200875@emout15.mail.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Content-Length: 457 Member1700@aol.com wrote: > > Dear Frederick: > I was interested that you could access the e-mail addresses of those who > voted yes. Do you also have a list of the 600 or so that voted no? Can you > send it to me? > Thanks very much. > > Regards, > Tony Lee It's in the RESULT posting of voting on talk.religion.bahai You can find it on news.groups around March 26 or 27th. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Thu Apr 17 08:13:22 1997 >From FG@hotmail.com Thu Apr 17 04:48:22 1997 Received: (qmail 6000 invoked from network); 17 Apr 1997 11:45:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO default) (199.179.42.118) by hm3.hotmail.com with SMTP; 17 Apr 1997 11:45:52 -0000 Message-ID: <33560E29.70B2@hotmail.com> Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 07:48:57 -0400 From: FG Reply-To: FG@hotmail.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Member1700@aol.com Subject: Re: Listserv: alt.religion.bahai References: <970417014703_572200875@emout15.mail.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Content-Length: 455 Member1700@aol.com wrote: > > Dear Frederick: > I was interested that you could access the e-mail addresses of those who > voted yes. Do you also have a list of the 600 or so that voted no? Can you > send it to me? > Thanks very much. > > Regards, > Tony Lee It's in the RESULT posting of voting on talk.religion.bahai You can find it on news.groups around March 26 or 27th. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Thu Apr 17 07:12:49 1997 >From jklintzbfa@aol.com Wed Apr 16 23:53:21 1997 Received: (from root@localhost) by emout01.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id CAA10232 for FG@hotmail.com; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 02:53:10 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 02:53:10 -0400 (EDT) From: JKLintzBFA@aol.com Message-ID: <970417025310_672720828@emout01.mail.aol.com> To: FG@hotmail.com Subject: Re: Listserv: alt.religion.bahai X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Content-Length: 785 In a message dated 4/16/97 10:15:20 AM, you wrote: <> I'd love to help, as I think a non-censored Baha'i NG is needed, but I'm not affiliated with any type of institution which it sounds like is what you're looking for. If it's just a matter of listing my name as in favor, or something, let me know. Will you be sending some kind of notice when it's actually up and running? I've looked for it a couple times...... Thanks for your work on this!!!! I've been censored several times on soc.religion.bahai so feel strongly about this, too. JK From - Thu Apr 17 07:45:00 1997 BCC: FG@hotmail.com Message-ID: <33560D3C.3812@hotmail.com> Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 07:45:00 -0400 From: FG Reply-To: FG@hotmail.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: JKLintzBFA@aol.com Subject: Re: Listserv: alt.religion.bahai References: <970417025310_672720828@emout01.mail.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Content-Length: 1593 JKLintzBFA@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 4/16/97 10:15:20 AM, you wrote: > > < involved. Basically, all you have to do is ask your system > administrator to sponser it. It's merely a matter of finding an > institution to host it.>> > > I'd love to help, as I think a non-censored Baha'i NG is needed, but I'm not > affiliated with any type of institution which it sounds like is what you're > looking for. If it's just a matter of listing my name as in favor, or > something, let me know. > > Will you be sending some kind of notice when it's actually up and running? > I've looked for it a couple times...... > > Thanks for your work on this!!!! I've been censored several times on > soc.religion.bahai so feel strongly about this, too. > > JK Thanks for the offer of help. What's needed is an institution, ISP, or AOL to sponsor a LISTSERV that can then be a GATEWAY connected to alt.religion.bahai Once that's done, anyone with email capabilities send and receive messages from alt.religion.bahai Could you ask the help people or administrators of AOL if they'll sponsor a LISTSERV? They should understand the technical side. They don't actually connect it themselves to alt.religion.bahai, someone else does that. All they do is set up the LISTSERV? Are you able at the present moment to access alt.religion.bahai? Did you know it was created after talk.religion.bahai was blasted out of cyberspace? -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Thu Apr 17 08:13:17 1997 >From FG@hotmail.com Thu Apr 17 04:42:24 1997 Received: (qmail 5979 invoked from network); 17 Apr 1997 11:41:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO default) (199.179.42.118) by hm3.hotmail.com with SMTP; 17 Apr 1997 11:41:57 -0000 Message-ID: <33560D3C.3812@hotmail.com> Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 07:45:00 -0400 From: FG Reply-To: FG@hotmail.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: JKLintzBFA@aol.com Subject: Re: Listserv: alt.religion.bahai References: <970417025310_672720828@emout01.mail.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Content-Length: 1591 JKLintzBFA@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 4/16/97 10:15:20 AM, you wrote: > > < involved. Basically, all you have to do is ask your system > administrator to sponser it. It's merely a matter of finding an > institution to host it.>> > > I'd love to help, as I think a non-censored Baha'i NG is needed, but I'm not > affiliated with any type of institution which it sounds like is what you're > looking for. If it's just a matter of listing my name as in favor, or > something, let me know. > > Will you be sending some kind of notice when it's actually up and running? > I've looked for it a couple times...... > > Thanks for your work on this!!!! I've been censored several times on > soc.religion.bahai so feel strongly about this, too. > > JK Thanks for the offer of help. What's needed is an institution, ISP, or AOL to sponsor a LISTSERV that can then be a GATEWAY connected to alt.religion.bahai Once that's done, anyone with email capabilities send and receive messages from alt.religion.bahai Could you ask the help people or administrators of AOL if they'll sponsor a LISTSERV? They should understand the technical side. They don't actually connect it themselves to alt.religion.bahai, someone else does that. All they do is set up the LISTSERV? Are you able at the present moment to access alt.religion.bahai? Did you know it was created after talk.religion.bahai was blasted out of cyberspace? -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Fri Apr 18 07:27:16 1997 >From woodgold@seismo.nrcan.gc.ca Thu Apr 17 11:01:39 1997 Received: from saw19.nrcan.gc.ca by richter (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id OAA28094; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 14:01:14 -0400 Received: by saw19.nrcan.gc.ca (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id OAA13237; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 14:00:30 -0400 Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 14:00:30 -0400 From: woodgold@seismo.nrcan.gc.ca (Catherine woodgold) Message-Id: <199704171800.OAA13237@saw19.nrcan.gc.ca> To: FG@hotmail.com Subject: Re: Listserv: alt.religion.bahai Cc: woodgold@seismo.nrcan.gc.ca X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII X-Mozilla-Status: 0014 Content-Length: 457 Before I ask my friend, please answer two questions: How many people that you know of want to be on the listserv and can't access the newsgroup? Did anyone else say they will ask their institution to set up a listserv? (If so, I will wait.) I can't access alt.religion.bahai, which is strange since a few days ago there seemed to be a tremendous number of new newsgroups created, some obviously jokes, e.g. alt.religion.santaism. Cathy From - Fri Apr 18 07:27:19 1997 >From mahmudtaha@aol.com Thu Apr 17 11:52:37 1997 Received: (from root@localhost) by emout07.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id OAA01891 for FG@hotmail.com; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 14:53:08 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 14:53:08 -0400 (EDT) From: MahmudTaha@aol.com Message-ID: <970417145140_17920191@emout07.mail.aol.com> To: FG@hotmail.com Subject: Re: Listserv: alt.religion.bahai X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Content-Length: 930 In an eMail of 16.04.1997 14:57:20 you wrote: << It appears that setting up a listserv for alt.religion.bahai might require someone else sponsor it who voted YES. I'm posting and emailing this to everyone on the YES list for talk.religion.bahai If you're willing to help make it possible for others to gain access to the discussion on alt.religion.bahai, which, let's face it, has yet to begin really, please email me directly: FG@hotmail.com Once the listserv is set up, there's no daily or regular maintenance involved. Basically, all you have to do is ask your system administrator to sponser it. It's merely a matter of finding an institution to host it. >> I'm afraid I didn't get completely what you expect me to do. But certainly I strongly support the instalment of a newsgroup alt.religion.bahai. If you like you may forward this mail to who you like. Peace, Mahmud K. Taha From - Fri Apr 18 07:28:22 1997 >From i.freeman@math.canterbury.ac.nz Thu Apr 17 19:32:49 1997 Received: from math.canterbury.ac.nz ("port 3177"@math.canterbury.ac.nz) by csc.canterbury.ac.nz (PMDF V5.1-7 #17207) with SMTP id <01IHUMMZAKJK9FMX47@csc.canterbury.ac.nz> for FG@hotmail.com; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 12:14:55 +1200 Received: from ssp5-07.math.canterbury.ac.nz by math.canterbury.ac.nz (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA10971; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 12:14:54 +0000 (NZS) Received: by ssp5-07.math.canterbury.ac.nz (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id MAA24297; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 12:14:52 +1200 Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 12:14:52 +1200 From: I.Freeman@math.canterbury.ac.nz (Isaac Freeman) Subject: Re: Listserv: alt.religion.bahai In-reply-to: <3354BD1F.947@hotmail.com> To: FG@hotmail.com Message-id: <199704180014.MAA24297@ssp5-07.math.canterbury.ac.nz> X-Mailer: xrn 8.02 X-Newsgroups: misc.misc,bit.admin,talk.religion.misc X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Content-Length: 630 In article <3354BD1F.947@hotmail.com>, you write: > It appears that setting up a listserv for alt.religion.bahai might > require someone else sponsor it who voted YES. I'm posting and emailing > this to everyone on the YES list for talk.religion.bahai Don't restrict it to people who voted YES. There are probably plenty of people who abstained or voted NO who might also be able to help. Although I can't offer any help getting the listserv set up, I'd be pleased to join the discussion. The same applies to alt.religion.bahai, if it ever turns up here (I'll ask the sysadmin when I get a chance). Isaac Freeman From - Fri Feb 21 08:21:38 1997 Received: from default (204.38.255.39) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Fri, 21 Feb 1997 08:00:23 -0500 Message-ID: <330D9E27.1FB8@moa.net> Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 08:07:51 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.usenet CC: cbstone@phoenix.princeton.edu, bill@netagw.com, mfrankow@winternet.com Subject: Michael Frankowski References: <199701240112.RAA31295@mailmasher.com> <32e9c06a.64962848@news.erols.com> <32f0678c.5509514@nntp.syix.com> <32F61D44.1E58@arrakis.es> <5d5ao4$4b7@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 3543 Michael Frankowski is apparently cancelling many people's postings to USEnet. A search on Dejanews.com shows as many as 3,700 cancellations! --- Subject: Someone's cancelling my messages Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 08:00:37 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> To: cbstone@phoenix.princeton.edu CC: bill@netagw.com Chris, A Michael Frankowski is deleting my postings to news.groups, and perhaps to soc.religion.bahai earlier in the week. This has been confirmed by someone at dejanews.com. Under a search at Dejanews.com, Frankowski has deleted perhaps as many as 3,700 messages by other people! Can't something be done! ----- Subject: Re: Cancelled messages on news.groups Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 09:33:01 -0600 (CST) From: User Liaison To: Frederick Glaysher <@moa.net> Hey there, Yeah, I see what you're saying, someone is canceling your messages to Usenet. This isn't a function of Deja News, it is a Usenet command. Usually, this function is reserved for people trying to get rid of spam (messages they believe are posted to the wrong newsgroup). If you truly believe that you weren't spamming, you could see if someone at news.admin can help you, but we can't (we have NO authority over Usenet in general). However, we're doing what we can, we don't honor cancel messages for just this reason, too easy to forge. In order for your messages to be taken out of our database, one must prove that they're the author of the message. So, if your messages make it to us before they get cancelled (very likely), they'll be archived. Good luck. Let me know if I can help you with anything else... ______________________ Dieter Deja News User Liaison ______________________ On Thu, 20 Feb 1997, Frederick Glaysher wrote: > User Liaison wrote: > > > > Greetings! > > > > I just looked up the articles with your address: > > > > @moa.net > > > > and I don't see any cancel messages. Could you send me the headers of the > > articles in question so that I can check into this? > > > > > I not sure, but I'm worried someone else is cancelling my messages. > The header reads: > > mfrankow@winternet.com (Michael Frankowski) > 1997/02/18 > Message-Id: > Sender: Frederick Glaysher <@moa.net> > Control: cancel <856175821.15185@dejanews.com> > Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service > Newsgroups: news.groups > > There are 13 cancelled messages if you search news.groups, > Feb. 18th, under my name: glaysher > > I did post a lot of messages that day.... > > > > Let me know if I can help you with anything else... > > ______________________ > > > > Dieter > > > > Deja News > > User Liaison > > ______________________ > > > > On Wed, 19 Feb 1997, Frederick Glaysher wrote: > > > > > A dozen or so cancelled messages have appeared under news.groups. > > > My name and email is in the FROM, while the request to cancel > > > bears your name and email. What's going on? > > > > > > -- > > > Frederick Glaysher > > > Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > > > > > > > > -- > Frederick Glaysher > Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Sat Feb 22 09:30:45 1997 Received: from default (204.38.255.47) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Sat, 22 Feb 1997 09:22:32 -0500 Message-ID: <330F02EC.6CFB@moa.net> Date: Sat, 22 Feb 1997 09:30:04 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: postmaster@winternet.com Subject: Michael Frankowski: Cancelling messages Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 523 Michael Frankowski has cancelled 13 of my messages on dejanews.com; a search there shows he has cancelled more than 3,700 other messages! I emailed him directly a few days ago. A search of other messages there show other people have attempted to get him to stop in the past. Please intervene on my behalf and others and get him to stop or kick him off your system.... His email is mfrankow@winternet.com I'd appreciate it if you'd respond to this note. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Sat Feb 22 09:30:04 1997 BCC: @MOA.net Message-ID: <330F02EC.6CFB@moa.net> Date: Sat, 22 Feb 1997 09:30:04 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: postmaster@winternet.com Subject: Michael Frankowski: Cancelling messages Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 525 Michael Frankowski has cancelled 13 of my messages on dejanews.com; a search there shows he has cancelled more than 3,700 other messages! I emailed him directly a few days ago. A search of other messages there show other people have attempted to get him to stop in the past. Please intervene on my behalf and others and get him to stop or kick him off your system.... His email is mfrankow@winternet.com I'd appreciate it if you'd respond to this note. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Thu Apr 10 08:13:58 1997 >From richs@microsoft.com Thu Mar 13 17:05:03 1997 Received: by INET-05-IMC with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1457.3) id ; Thu, 13 Mar 1997 13:17:12 -0800 Message-ID: <9106B0327B3ACF11ACEF00805FD47A0B01C6EFC7@RED-67-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> From: Rick Schaut To: mbkafes@bestweb.net, sindiogi@nmsu.edu, cna00185@wvnvm.wvnet.edu, jsturdiv@capaccess.org, FG@hotmail.com, rcmolden@students.wisc.edu, smsmith@mail.cybertrails.com, StarNWest@aol.com, GTOInc@aol.com, Mewwster@aol.com, pjohnson@leo.vsla.edu, s.mc_glinn@thiusnet.leidenuniv.nl, haukness@tenet.edu, smaneck@berry.edu, Steve.Burgess@pixie.co.za, dmcadam@madriver.com, math5ijf@math.canterbury.ac.nz, AZY27A@prodigy.com, AdjCSAACWA@aol.com, ntc@usbnc.org, ablakeson@usbnc.org, wilmette_institute@usbnc.org, pioneer@usbnc.org, deandobbert@delphi.com, Bobcharnes@aol.com, alexr@umich.edu, suehaas@ksu.ksu.edu, bosch@usbnc.org, gposey@usbnc.org, larry@vexcel.com, usbro@usbnc.org, cfblack@omni.cc.purdue.edu, bahaichr@bssl.umd.edu, louhelen@usbnc.org, nabi@usbnc.org, lyancy@usbnc.org, cstanwood@usbnc.org, tgp1@cornell.edu, healy@pipeline.com, Archaelim@aol.com, DRanchuk@aol.com, WMoore4491@aol.com, iolson@smiley.mitre.org, DEBRAYTON@aol.com, finance@usbnc.org, PayamA@aol.com, rstockman@usbnc.org, Atohk@aol.com, Ladiri@aol.com, community@usbnc.org Cc: "'sbirkland@aol.com'" , "'jlhb@aol.com'" , "'lc4johnson@aol.com'" Subject: Mr. Brent Reed's Message Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 13:14:30 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1457.3) X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 3159 Dear Friends, Each of you has received a message from one Mr. Brent Reed, recently declared Covenant breaker by the Universal House of Justice. Please accept my appologies for intruding with this message, but this is as good a time as any to review the precise issues raised by Mr. Reed. While it is clear that the writings of Shoghi Effendi, indeed the Will and Testament of `Abdu'l-Baha itself, envisage successors to Shoghi Effendi as Guardian of the Cause of God, the following provisions of the Master's Will and Testament needed to be fulfilled in order for such succession to take place: "O ye beloved of the Lord! It is incumbent upon the Guardian of the Cause of God to appoint in his own life-time him that shall become his successor, that differences may not arise after his passing. He that is appointed must manifest in himself detachment from all worldly things, must be the essence of purity, must show in himself the fear of God, knowledge, wisdom and learning. Thus, should the first-born of the Guardian of the Cause of God not manifest in himself the truth of the words:--"The child is the secret essence of its sire," that is, should he not inherit of the spiritual within him (the Guardian of the Cause of God) and his glorious lineage not be matched with a goodly character, then must he, (the Guardian of the Cause of God) choose another branch to succeed him. The Hands of the Cause of God must elect from their own number nine persons that shall at all times be occupied in the important services in the work of the Guardian of the Cause of God. The election of these nine must be carried either unanimously or by majority from the company of the Hands of the Cause of God and these, whether unanimously or by a majority vote, must give their assent to the choice of the one whom the Guardian of the Cause of God hath chosen as his successor. This assent must be given in such wise as the assenting and dissenting voices may not be distinguished (i.e., secret ballot)." --The Will and Testament of `Abdu'l-Baha, p. 12 Note that the word translated as "branch" in the last sentence of the first paragraph is "ghusn", and the friends have understood this to refer exclusively to blood descendants of Baha'u'llah. Shoghi Effendi had no children, and left no will. All the remaining blood descendants of Baha'u'llah had either passed away or had become Covenant breakers. Clearly, Shoghi Effendi could not, in his own lifetime, appoint a successor who manifested "in himself detachment from all worldly things". Therefore, there was no appointment to which the Hands of the Cause of God could give their assent. Thus, the Baha'i Faith has had, and will only ever have, one Guardian, Shoghi Effendi. I can say, with confidence, that the Counsellors know of Mr. Reed's recent messages, and have access to their contents. You may feel free to destroy any messages from Mr. Reed, and I strongly encourage you to do so. Lastly, I should point out that even `Abdu'l-Baha prayed for firmness in the Covenant, and He is our Exemplar. Warmest Regards, Rick Schaut From - Thu Apr 10 08:11:11 1997 >From haukness@tenet.edu Thu Mar 13 16:36:16 1997 Received: (from haukness@localhost) by Joyce-Perkins.tenet.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) id SAA18432; Thu, 13 Mar 1997 18:29:50 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 18:29:50 -0600 (CST) From: John Haukness To: Rick Schaut cc: mbkafes@bestweb.net, sindiogi@nmsu.edu, cna00185@wvnvm.wvnet.edu, jsturdiv@capaccess.org, FG@hotmail.com, rcmolden@students.wisc.edu, smsmith@mail.cybertrails.com, StarNWest@aol.com, GTOInc@aol.com, Mewwster@aol.com, pjohnson@leo.vsla.edu, s.mc_glinn@thiusnet.leidenuniv.nl, smaneck@berry.edu, Steve.Burgess@pixie.co.za, dmcadam@madriver.com, math5ijf@math.canterbury.ac.nz, AZY27A@prodigy.com, AdjCSAACWA@aol.com, ntc@usbnc.org, ablakeson@usbnc.org, wilmette_institute@usbnc.org, pioneer@usbnc.org, deandobbert@delphi.com, Bobcharnes@aol.com, alexr@umich.edu, suehaas@ksu.ksu.edu, bosch@usbnc.org, gposey@usbnc.org, larry@vexcel.com, usbro@usbnc.org, cfblack@omni.cc.purdue.edu, bahaichr@bssl.umd.edu, louhelen@usbnc.org, nabi@usbnc.org, lyancy@usbnc.org, cstanwood@usbnc.org, tgp1@cornell.edu, healy@pipeline.com, Archaelim@aol.com, DRanchuk@aol.com, WMoore4491@aol.com, iolson@smiley.mitre.org, DEBRAYTON@aol.com, finance@usbnc.org, PayamA@aol.com, rstockman@usbnc.org, Atohk@aol.com, Ladiri@aol.com, community@usbnc.org, "'sbirkland@aol.com'" , "'jlhb@aol.com'" , "'lc4johnson@aol.com'" Subject: Re: Mr. Brent Reed's Message In-Reply-To: <9106B0327B3ACF11ACEF00805FD47A0B01C6EFC7@RED-67-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Mozilla-Status: 0014 Content-Length: 3748 Allah-u-Abha Friends: Thank you to Rick for offering an explanation of what is happening. I didn't read Mr. Reed's message in depth as by the end of the first paragraph I found the message to be totally inept and just deleted it. But I do appreciate knowing what is going on. au revoir haukness@tenet.edu 2015 Bay St. N. Texas City, TX 77590 voice/fax 409-948-6074 One planet one people please! On Thu, 13 Mar 1997, Rick Schaut wrote: > Dear Friends, > > Each of you has received a message from one Mr. Brent Reed, recently > declared Covenant breaker by the Universal House of Justice. Please > accept my appologies for intruding with this message, but this is as > good a time as any to review the precise issues raised by Mr. Reed. > > While it is clear that the writings of Shoghi Effendi, indeed the Will > and Testament of `Abdu'l-Baha itself, envisage successors to Shoghi > Effendi as Guardian of the Cause of God, the following provisions of the > Master's Will and Testament needed to be fulfilled in order for such > succession to take place: > > "O ye beloved of the Lord! It is incumbent upon the Guardian of the > Cause of God to appoint in his own life-time him that shall become his > successor, that differences may not arise after his passing. He that is > appointed must manifest in himself detachment from all worldly things, > must be the essence of purity, must show in himself the fear of God, > knowledge, wisdom and learning. Thus, should the first-born of the > Guardian of the Cause of God not manifest in himself the truth of the > words:--"The child is the secret essence of its sire," that is, should > he not inherit of the spiritual within him (the Guardian of the Cause of > God) and his glorious lineage not be matched with a goodly character, > then must he, (the Guardian of the Cause of God) choose another branch > to succeed him. > > The Hands of the Cause of God must elect from their own number nine > persons that shall at all times be occupied in the important services in > the work of the Guardian of the Cause of God. The election of these nine > must be carried either unanimously or by majority from the company of > the Hands of the Cause of God and these, whether unanimously or by a > majority vote, must give their assent to the choice of the one whom the > Guardian of the Cause of God hath chosen as his successor. This assent > must be given in such wise as the assenting and dissenting voices may > not be distinguished (i.e., secret ballot)." > --The Will and Testament of `Abdu'l-Baha, p. 12 > > Note that the word translated as "branch" in the last sentence of the > first paragraph is "ghusn", and the friends have understood this to > refer exclusively to blood descendants of Baha'u'llah. > > Shoghi Effendi had no children, and left no will. All the remaining > blood descendants of Baha'u'llah had either passed away or had become > Covenant breakers. Clearly, Shoghi Effendi could not, in his own > lifetime, appoint a successor who manifested "in himself detachment from > all worldly things". Therefore, there was no appointment to which the > Hands of the Cause of God could give their assent. > > Thus, the Baha'i Faith has had, and will only ever have, one Guardian, > Shoghi Effendi. > > > I can say, with confidence, that the Counsellors know of Mr. Reed's > recent messages, and have access to their contents. You may feel free > to destroy any messages from Mr. Reed, and I strongly encourage you to > do so. > > Lastly, I should point out that even `Abdu'l-Baha prayed for firmness in > the Covenant, and He is our Exemplar. > > > Warmest Regards, > Rick Schaut > From - Thu Apr 10 08:14:01 1997 >From rstockman@usbnc.org Thu Mar 13 19:57:46 1997 Received: from usbnc.org (nt_dev.usbnc.org [192.168.1.5]) by hemayat.usbnc.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA08424; Thu, 13 Mar 1997 21:49:37 -0600 Message-Id: <199703140349.VAA08424@hemayat.usbnc.org> Date: Mar 13, 1997 21:45 -0600 From: "Robert Stockman" To: mbkafes@bestweb.net, sindiogi@nmsu.edu, cna00185@wvnvm.wvnet.edu, jsturdiv@capaccess.org, FG@hotmail.com, rcmolden@students.wisc.edu, smsmith@mail.cybertrails.com, StarNWest@aol.com, GTOInc@aol.com, Mewwster@aol.com, pjohnson@leo.vsla.edu, s.mc_glinn@thiusnet.leidenuniv.nl, haukness@tenet.edu, smaneck@berry.edu, Steve.Burgess@pixie.co.za, dmcadam@madriver.com, math5ijf@math.canterbury.ac.nz, AZY27A@prodigy.com, AdjCSAACWA@aol.com, deandobbert@delphi.com, Bobcharnes@aol.com, alexr@umich.edu, suehaas@ksu.ksu.edu, larry@vexcel.com, cfblack@omni.cc.purdue.edu, bahaichr@bssl.umd.edu, tgp1@cornell.edu, healy@pipeline.com, Archaelim@aol.com, DRanchuk@aol.com, WMoore4491@aol.com, iolson@smiley.mitre.org, DEBRAYTON@aol.com, PayamA@aol.com, Atohk@aol.com, Ladiri@aol.com, richs@MICROSOFT.com, NTC@usbnc.org, ablakeson@usbnc.org, Wilmette_Institute@usbnc.org, PIONEER@usbnc.org, BOSCH@usbnc.org, GPosey@usbnc.org, USBRO@usbnc.org, LOUHELEN@usbnc.org, NABI@usbnc.org, LYancy@usbnc.org, CStanwood@usbnc.org, FINANCE@usbnc.org, COMMUNITY@usbnc.org Cc: sbirkland@aol.com, jlhb@aol.com, lc4johnson@aol.com Subject: Re: Mr. Brent Reed's Message X-Mozilla-Status: 0014 Content-Length: 4030 Dear Rick: Why did you send me this message? When I received Mr. Reed's messages I opened the first one, hit reply, typed "Returned to Sender, I do not read Covenant breaker messages" and sent the message. I have no interest in reading Mr. Reed's messages or hearing arguments about his messages. Let us leave the matter to the Counsellors and the National Spiritual Assembly. Certainly, please don't spread his arguments around in an effort to refute them. -- Rob Stockman ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Mr. Brent Reed's Message Author: richs@MICROSOFT.com (Rick Schaut) at INTERNET Date: 3/13/97 1:14 PM Dear Friends, Each of you has received a message from one Mr. Brent Reed, recently declared Covenant breaker by the Universal House of Justice. Please accept my appologies for intruding with this message, but this is as good a time as any to review the precise issues raised by Mr. Reed. While it is clear that the writings of Shoghi Effendi, indeed the Will and Testament of `Abdu'l-Baha itself, envisage successors to Shoghi Effendi as Guardian of the Cause of God, the following provisions of the Master's Will and Testament needed to be fulfilled in order for such succession to take place: "O ye beloved of the Lord! It is incumbent upon the Guardian of the Cause of God to appoint in his own life-time him that shall become his successor, that differences may not arise after his passing. He that is appointed must manifest in himself detachment from all worldly things, must be the essence of purity, must show in himself the fear of God, knowledge, wisdom and learning. Thus, should the first-born of the Guardian of the Cause of God not manifest in himself the truth of the words:--"The child is the secret essence of its sire," that is, should he not inherit of the spiritual within him (the Guardian of the Cause of God) and his glorious lineage not be matched with a goodly character, then must he, (the Guardian of the Cause of God) choose another branch to succeed him. The Hands of the Cause of God must elect from their own number nine persons that shall at all times be occupied in the important services in the work of the Guardian of the Cause of God. The election of these nine must be carried either unanimously or by majority from the company of the Hands of the Cause of God and these, whether unanimously or by a majority vote, must give their assent to the choice of the one whom the Guardian of the Cause of God hath chosen as his successor. This assent must be given in such wise as the assenting and dissenting voices may not be distinguished (i.e., secret ballot)." --The Will and Testament of `Abdu'l-Baha, p. 12 Note that the word translated as "branch" in the last sentence of the first paragraph is "ghusn", and the friends have understood this to refer exclusively to blood descendants of Baha'u'llah. Shoghi Effendi had no children, and left no will. All the remaining blood descendants of Baha'u'llah had either passed away or had become Covenant breakers. Clearly, Shoghi Effendi could not, in his own lifetime, appoint a successor who manifested "in himself detachment from all worldly things". Therefore, there was no appointment to which the Hands of the Cause of God could give their assent. Thus, the Baha'i Faith has had, and will only ever have, one Guardian, Shoghi Effendi. I can say, with confidence, that the Counsellors know of Mr. Reed's recent messages, and have access to their contents. You may feel free to destroy any messages from Mr. Reed, and I strongly encourage you to do so. Lastly, I should point out that even `Abdu'l-Baha prayed for firmness in the Covenant, and He is our Exemplar. Warmest Regards, Rick Schaut From - Thu Apr 10 08:14:06 1997 >From steve.burgess@pixie.co.za Thu Mar 13 21:31:20 1997 Received: from pak04365.pix.za ([196.28.131.8]) by phantom.pix.za (8.8.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA24409; Fri, 14 Mar 1997 07:30:13 +0200 (GMT) Message-ID: <3328E27A.F6E@pixie.co.za> Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 07:30:34 +0200 From: Dr Steve Burgess Reply-To: Steve.Burgess@pixie.co.za Organization: Steve Burgess & Associates / Graduate Institute X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: mbkafes@bestweb.net, sindiogi@nmsu.edu, cna00185@wvnvm.wvnet.edu, jsturdiv@capaccess.org, FG@hotmail.com, rcmolden@students.wisc.edu Subject: Re: Mr. Brent Reed's Message References: <199703140349.VAA08424@hemayat.usbnc.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0014 Content-Length: 4429 Robert Stockman wrote: > > Dear Rick: > > Why did you send me this message? When I received Mr. Reed's messages > I opened the first one, hit reply, typed "Returned to Sender, I do not > read Covenant breaker messages" and sent the message. I have no > interest in reading Mr. Reed's messages or hearing arguments about his > messages. Let us leave the matter to the Counsellors and the National > Spiritual Assembly. Certainly, please don't spread his arguments > around in an effort to refute them. > > -- Rob Stockman > > ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ > Subject: Mr. Brent Reed's Message > Author: richs@MICROSOFT.com (Rick Schaut) at INTERNET > Date: 3/13/97 1:14 PM > > Dear Friends, > > Each of you has received a message from one Mr. Brent Reed, recently > declared Covenant breaker by the Universal House of Justice. Please > accept my appologies for intruding with this message, but this is as > good a time as any to review the precise issues raised by Mr. Reed. > > While it is clear that the writings of Shoghi Effendi, indeed the Will > and Testament of `Abdu'l-Baha itself, envisage successors to Shoghi > Effendi as Guardian of the Cause of God, the following provisions of the > Master's Will and Testament needed to be fulfilled in order for such > succession to take place: > > "O ye beloved of the Lord! It is incumbent upon the Guardian of the > Cause of God to appoint in his own life-time him that shall become his > successor, that differences may not arise after his passing. He that is > appointed must manifest in himself detachment from all worldly things, > must be the essence of purity, must show in himself the fear of God, > knowledge, wisdom and learning. Thus, should the first-born of the > Guardian of the Cause of God not manifest in himself the truth of the > words:--"The child is the secret essence of its sire," that is, should > he not inherit of the spiritual within him (the Guardian of the Cause of > God) and his glorious lineage not be matched with a goodly character, > then must he, (the Guardian of the Cause of God) choose another branch > to succeed him. > > The Hands of the Cause of God must elect from their own number nine > persons that shall at all times be occupied in the important services in > the work of the Guardian of the Cause of God. The election of these nine > must be carried either unanimously or by majority from the company of the > Hands of the Cause of God and these, whether unanimously or by a majority > vote, must give their assent to the choice of the one whom the Guardian > of the Cause of God hath chosen as his successor. This assent must be > given in such wise as the assenting and dissenting voices may not be > distinguished (i.e., secret ballot)." > --The Will and Testament of `Abdu'l-Baha, p. 12 > > Note that the word translated as "branch" in the last sentence of the > first paragraph is "ghusn", and the friends have understood this to > refer exclusively to blood descendants of Baha'u'llah. > > Shoghi Effendi had no children, and left no will. All the remaining > blood descendants of Baha'u'llah had either passed away or had become > Covenant breakers. Clearly, Shoghi Effendi could not, in his own > lifetime, appoint a successor who manifested "in himself detachment from > all worldly things". Therefore, there was no appointment to which the > Hands of the Cause of God could give their assent. > > Thus, the Baha'i Faith has had, and will only ever have, one Guardian, > Shoghi Effendi. > > > I can say, with confidence, that the Counsellors know of Mr. Reed's > recent messages, and have access to their contents. You may feel free > to destroy any messages from Mr. Reed, and I strongly encourage you to > do so. > > Lastly, I should point out that even `Abdu'l-Baha prayed for firmness in > the Covenant, and He is our Exemplar. > > > Warmest Regards, > Rick Schaut Dear Friends: I did something similar to Rob. I told this fellow that I would not be reading his post, had not read what he just sent. I will not read anything in the future. I asked him to please not post me again. Sad. Regards Steve Rob is on the right track here, let's not give this fellow any prominence. From - Thu Apr 10 08:15:04 1997 >From smaneck@berry.edu Tue Mar 18 21:00:24 1997 Received: from odin.berry.edu (odin.berry.edu [168.31.232.26]) by drew.berry.edu (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id DAA10770; Wed, 19 Mar 1997 03:00:47 -0500 Received: from ODIN/SpoolDir by odin.berry.edu (Mercury 1.31); 19 Mar 97 00:05:01 -400 Received: from SpoolDir by ODIN (Mercury 1.31); 19 Mar 97 00:04:51 -400 From: "Susan Maneck" Organization: Berry College To: mbkafes@bestweb.net, sindiogi@nmsu.edu, cna00185@wvnvm.wvnet.edu, jsturdiv@CapAccess.org, FG@hotmail.com, rcmolden@students.wisc.edu, smsmith@mail.cybertrails.com, StarNWest@AOL.COM, GTOInc@AOL.COM, Mewwster@AOL.COM, pjohnson@leo.vsla.edu, s.mc_glinn@thiusnet.leidenuniv.nl, haukness@tenet.edu, smaneck@berry.edu, Steve.Burgess@pixie.co.za, dmcadam@madriver.com, math5ijf@math.canterbury.ac.nz, AZY27A@prodigy.com, AdjCSAACWA@AOL.COM, ntc@usbnc.org, ablakeson@usbnc.org, wilmette_institute@usbnc.org, pioneer@usbnc.org, deandobbert@delphi.com, Bobcharnes@AOL.COM, alexr@UMICH.EDU, suehaas@ksu.ksu.edu, bosch@usbnc.org, gposey@usbnc.org, larry@vexcel.com, usbro@usbnc.org, cfblack@omni.cc.purdue.edu, bahaichr@bssl.umd.edu, louhelen@usbnc.org, nabi@usbnc.org, lyancy@usbnc.org, cstanwood@usbnc.org, tgp1@cornell.edu, healy@pipeline.com, Archaelim@AOL.COM, DRanchuk@AOL.COM, WMoore4491@AOL.COM, iolson@smiley.mitre.org, DEBRAYTON@AOL.COM, finance@usbnc.org, PayamA@AOL.COM, rstockman@usbnc.org, Atohk@AOL.COM, Ladiri@AOL.COM, community@usbnc.org, Rick Schaut Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 00:04:41 EST X-Distribution: Moderate Subject: Re: Mr. Brent Reed's Message Reply-to: SManeck@berry.edu CC: "'sbirkland@aol.com'" , "'jlhb@aol.com'" , "'lc4johnson@aol.com'" Priority: normal In-reply-to: <9106B0327B3ACF11ACEF00805FD47A0B01C6EFC7@RED-67-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.53/R1) Message-ID: <5F7AA419AC@odin.berry.edu> X-Mozilla-Status: 0014 Content-Length: 298 Dear Friends, I understand that Counselor Birkland sent a message to some of those whose names were on Brent Reed's list. I did not receive a copy of that message. If someone has it, I would appreciate it if you would forward me a copy. Thanks, and a Happy Naw Ruz. Susan Maneck From - Mon Apr 07 07:29:33 1997 >From jjd@primenet.com Wed Mar 12 19:31:56 1997 Received: from usr03.primenet.com (jjd@usr03.primenet.com [206.165.5.103]) by usr07.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA14586 for ; Wed, 12 Mar 1997 20:14:23 -0700 (MST) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 20:14:22 -0700 (MST) From: Jim Davis Reply-To: Jim Davis To: Frederick Glaysher Subject: Re: My and my wife's vote on talk.religion.bahai In-Reply-To: <199703121229.EAA15982@f8.hotmail.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Mozilla-Status: 0014 Content-Length: 1195 No problem. Here's what I have so far for you two: FG@hotmail.com Frederick Glaysher @moa.net You can vote as many times as you like -- the software tosses out duplicate votes, so only the last (valid) vote you cast will end up in the final results. On Wed, 12 Mar 1997, Frederick Glaysher wrote: > I hope I haven't messed up our votes. I realize voting is supposed > to be automated but she may have voted twice, or voted with my name > in the FROM slot when I had already voted from FG@hotmail.com. > > I'm not trying to vote twice, fraudelently or whatever. I'd > appreciate it if you could find the time to straighten it out and > let me know. I'm afraid to attempt sending in another CANCEL because we tried > that and seem to have gotten only more confused. > > Sorry. > > -- > Frederick Glaysher > Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > > --------------------------------------------------------- > Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at https://www.hotmail.com > --------------------------------------------------------- > From - Wed Apr 09 08:12:00 1997 >From jjd@primenet.com Wed Mar 12 19:31:56 1997 Received: from usr03.primenet.com (jjd@usr03.primenet.com [206.165.5.103]) by usr07.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA14586 for ; Wed, 12 Mar 1997 20:14:23 -0700 (MST) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 20:14:22 -0700 (MST) From: Jim Davis Reply-To: Jim Davis To: Frederick Glaysher Subject: Re: My and my wife's vote on talk.religion.bahai In-Reply-To: <199703121229.EAA15982@f8.hotmail.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Mozilla-Status: 0014 Content-Length: 1195 No problem. Here's what I have so far for you two: FG@hotmail.com Frederick Glaysher @moa.net You can vote as many times as you like -- the software tosses out duplicate votes, so only the last (valid) vote you cast will end up in the final results. On Wed, 12 Mar 1997, Frederick Glaysher wrote: > I hope I haven't messed up our votes. I realize voting is supposed > to be automated but she may have voted twice, or voted with my name > in the FROM slot when I had already voted from FG@hotmail.com. > > I'm not trying to vote twice, fraudelently or whatever. I'd > appreciate it if you could find the time to straighten it out and > let me know. I'm afraid to attempt sending in another CANCEL because we tried > that and seem to have gotten only more confused. > > Sorry. > > -- > Frederick Glaysher > Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > > --------------------------------------------------------- > Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at https://www.hotmail.com > --------------------------------------------------------- > From - Thu Apr 10 08:10:32 1997 >From jjd@primenet.com Wed Mar 12 19:31:56 1997 Received: from usr03.primenet.com (jjd@usr03.primenet.com [206.165.5.103]) by usr07.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA14586 for ; Wed, 12 Mar 1997 20:14:23 -0700 (MST) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 20:14:22 -0700 (MST) From: Jim Davis Reply-To: Jim Davis To: Frederick Glaysher Subject: Re: My and my wife's vote on talk.religion.bahai In-Reply-To: <199703121229.EAA15982@f8.hotmail.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Mozilla-Status: 0014 Content-Length: 1195 No problem. Here's what I have so far for you two: FG@hotmail.com Frederick Glaysher @moa.net You can vote as many times as you like -- the software tosses out duplicate votes, so only the last (valid) vote you cast will end up in the final results. On Wed, 12 Mar 1997, Frederick Glaysher wrote: > I hope I haven't messed up our votes. I realize voting is supposed > to be automated but she may have voted twice, or voted with my name > in the FROM slot when I had already voted from FG@hotmail.com. > > I'm not trying to vote twice, fraudelently or whatever. I'd > appreciate it if you could find the time to straighten it out and > let me know. I'm afraid to attempt sending in another CANCEL because we tried > that and seem to have gotten only more confused. > > Sorry. > > -- > Frederick Glaysher > Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > > --------------------------------------------------------- > Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at https://www.hotmail.com > --------------------------------------------------------- > From - Mon Apr 07 07:29:40 1997 >From brentreed@aol.com Thu Mar 13 03:03:29 1997 Received: (from root@localhost) by emout16.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id FAA21564; Thu, 13 Mar 1997 05:57:14 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 05:57:14 -0500 (EST) From: BrentReed@aol.com Message-ID: <970313055713_-802260433@emout16.mail.aol.com> Subject: My Open Letter to All Sans-Guardian Baha'is X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 6335 An Open Letter to All Baha'is March 14, 1997 Dear Baha'i brothers and sisters: I am sorry that I have apparently not been clear enough in my various attempts to explain my discovery of the greatest Violation of Baha'u'llah's Covenant in Its history, and my consequent departure from the organization loyal to the "UHJ" whose leaders (the Hands) initiated that Violation, and then my declaration of Faith to the Third Guardian of the Baha'i Faith, Joel B. Marangella, who (whether you agree at this time or not) is the true faithful Guardian of your Faith. Sooner or later most of you will discover it to be so. I am a Baha'i just like you. Since I was 19, I was loyal to the organization under the "Universal House of Justice" in Haifa, Israel, just like you are. But thorough research has ABSOLUTELY and IRREVOCABLY convinced me that the leaders (Hands of the Cause, exept for the Hand, Mason Remey) of the Faith organization that I used to belong to - and that you still have your affiliation with - usurped power that was not theirs and violated Baha'u'llah's Covenant! Shoghi Effendi, the First Guardian, did in fact choose a successor. His name was Mason Remey. Mason Remey chose Joel Marangella to be his successor. Joel Marangella is now the Third Guardian of the Baha'i Faith. He is American. In order to help prevent confusion, the Third Guardian has temporarily named the the true Faith under his Guardianship, the Orthodox Baha'i Faith. The Guardianship was never supposed to end - and it has not! Did you know, that according to the Will & Testament and the Dispensation of Baha'u'llah: Administrative Section, that 1.) The Guardianship was not only meant to continue through the ages of Baha'u'llah's Dispensation, and that is what is meant by "The Day that Shall not be Followed by Night," but without it the "World Order of Baha'u'llah would become mutilated." 2.) The Guardian is supposed to be one of the nine members of the Universal House of Justice. 3.) As the Divinely appointed Interpreter of the Writings, he must make sure that the Legislative Branch (the UHJ) creates legislation that is consistent with the Baha'i Teachings. 4.) The UHJ is barred from interpreting the Writings. As one of the nine members, he is the only one who is not elected. He is the "sacred head for life of that body." The current imposter UHJ in Haifa does not have the Guardian as its sacred head. It has nine instead of eight elected members. Without the Divinely appointed Interpreter its legislation is not "freed from error." In addition, without a Guardian your organization will have no more Hands of the Cause, which Baha'u'llah set up as a permanent, unending institution, just like the Guardianship and the UHJ. You see, the Guardian must appoint the Hands. The UHJ cannot do this. Thus, in summation, by erroneously declaring that Shoghi Effendi had appointed no successor in 1957, and ending the Guardianship, the Hands destroyed all three Institutions of Baha'u'llah's World Order. The only institution that your organization has is one called the "Universal House of Justice." But it is NOT the Universal House of Justice foretold by Baha'u'llah. It is a man-made abomination. Despite all of the progress that you see now; despite the many properties that are being built, despite the fact that 5 million or so Baha'is give their allegiance to that organization, you must try to grasp the fact that IT IS NOT THE SUPREME BODY FORTOLD BY BAHA'U'LLAH. IT IS A COUNTERFEIT! It was truly a shock for me to discover that I had actually been in the Covenant-breaking organization since I was 19! My precious Baha'i brothers and sisters, of course you do not know me, but I am a very intelligent individual that has been VERY committed to Baha'u'llah since I was 19 years old. I am capable of making intelligent, rational decisions, and I am not insane, and would never embark on this journey of devoting my time and energy to publicly informing all Baha'is under the UHJ that they are on the wrong course, unless I were totally sure that documentation and evidence proves that I am correct. And certainly, I would not want to invoke the "negative karma" associated within misguiding people. What I am posting on America Online is very serious. All of you must study the Will & Testament, The Dispensation of Baha'u'llah: Administrative Section," the 1951 Proclamation of Shoghi Effendi to all national assemblies, and various other crucial letters from Shoghi Effendi that are difficult to round up. The Third Guardian's Web Site at: https://wantree.com.au/techbase/bahai/guardian.html can provide most of them for you. YOU ARE INNOCENT PARTICIPANTS IN A RAPIDLY INCREASINGLY POWERFUL ORGANIZATION THAT HAS VIOLATED BAHA'U'LLAH'S COVENANT! Please, do not fear what I am telling you. Trust in the Divine Spirit to guide your intellect and heart. God will surely protect you and enable you to find the truth, providing that you are truly detached. (Refer to the Tablet of the True Seeker. I believe it begins on page 196 in the Book of Certitude). I have been publicly accused of breaking the Covenant of the Manifestation of God that I have devoted my life to. I am willing and able (if it is God's Will, and He continues to strengthen me) to stand firm on my convictions. I will not abdicate my responsibility to Baha'u'llah. There is one other thing that needs clarification. I am not afilliated in any way to the people that call themselves the "BUPC," or the "Baha'is Under the Provisions of the Covenant," who claim that Leland Jensen, one of their members, was the return of Jesus and the Lamb of God. In my research, which included of course, researching the material from the BUPC, I did not recognize the pattern of Baha'u'llah's Covenant in their organization. Although they too recognize that the Hands violated the Covenant, their organization later took off in another direction that is incompatible with Baha'u'llah's Covenant. I hope that this has helped to clarify my position. Love and Light, Your Baha'i brother, Brent Reed From - Wed Apr 09 08:12:07 1997 >From brentreed@aol.com Thu Mar 13 03:03:29 1997 Received: (from root@localhost) by emout16.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id FAA21564; Thu, 13 Mar 1997 05:57:14 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 05:57:14 -0500 (EST) From: BrentReed@aol.com Message-ID: <970313055713_-802260433@emout16.mail.aol.com> Subject: My Open Letter to All Sans-Guardian Baha'is X-Mozilla-Status: 0004 Content-Length: 6335 An Open Letter to All Baha'is March 14, 1997 Dear Baha'i brothers and sisters: I am sorry that I have apparently not been clear enough in my various attempts to explain my discovery of the greatest Violation of Baha'u'llah's Covenant in Its history, and my consequent departure from the organization loyal to the "UHJ" whose leaders (the Hands) initiated that Violation, and then my declaration of Faith to the Third Guardian of the Baha'i Faith, Joel B. Marangella, who (whether you agree at this time or not) is the true faithful Guardian of your Faith. Sooner or later most of you will discover it to be so. I am a Baha'i just like you. Since I was 19, I was loyal to the organization under the "Universal House of Justice" in Haifa, Israel, just like you are. But thorough research has ABSOLUTELY and IRREVOCABLY convinced me that the leaders (Hands of the Cause, exept for the Hand, Mason Remey) of the Faith organization that I used to belong to - and that you still have your affiliation with - usurped power that was not theirs and violated Baha'u'llah's Covenant! Shoghi Effendi, the First Guardian, did in fact choose a successor. His name was Mason Remey. Mason Remey chose Joel Marangella to be his successor. Joel Marangella is now the Third Guardian of the Baha'i Faith. He is American. In order to help prevent confusion, the Third Guardian has temporarily named the the true Faith under his Guardianship, the Orthodox Baha'i Faith. The Guardianship was never supposed to end - and it has not! Did you know, that according to the Will & Testament and the Dispensation of Baha'u'llah: Administrative Section, that 1.) The Guardianship was not only meant to continue through the ages of Baha'u'llah's Dispensation, and that is what is meant by "The Day that Shall not be Followed by Night," but without it the "World Order of Baha'u'llah would become mutilated." 2.) The Guardian is supposed to be one of the nine members of the Universal House of Justice. 3.) As the Divinely appointed Interpreter of the Writings, he must make sure that the Legislative Branch (the UHJ) creates legislation that is consistent with the Baha'i Teachings. 4.) The UHJ is barred from interpreting the Writings. As one of the nine members, he is the only one who is not elected. He is the "sacred head for life of that body." The current imposter UHJ in Haifa does not have the Guardian as its sacred head. It has nine instead of eight elected members. Without the Divinely appointed Interpreter its legislation is not "freed from error." In addition, without a Guardian your organization will have no more Hands of the Cause, which Baha'u'llah set up as a permanent, unending institution, just like the Guardianship and the UHJ. You see, the Guardian must appoint the Hands. The UHJ cannot do this. Thus, in summation, by erroneously declaring that Shoghi Effendi had appointed no successor in 1957, and ending the Guardianship, the Hands destroyed all three Institutions of Baha'u'llah's World Order. The only institution that your organization has is one called the "Universal House of Justice." But it is NOT the Universal House of Justice foretold by Baha'u'llah. It is a man-made abomination. Despite all of the progress that you see now; despite the many properties that are being built, despite the fact that 5 million or so Baha'is give their allegiance to that organization, you must try to grasp the fact that IT IS NOT THE SUPREME BODY FORTOLD BY BAHA'U'LLAH. IT IS A COUNTERFEIT! It was truly a shock for me to discover that I had actually been in the Covenant-breaking organization since I was 19! My precious Baha'i brothers and sisters, of course you do not know me, but I am a very intelligent individual that has been VERY committed to Baha'u'llah since I was 19 years old. I am capable of making intelligent, rational decisions, and I am not insane, and would never embark on this journey of devoting my time and energy to publicly informing all Baha'is under the UHJ that they are on the wrong course, unless I were totally sure that documentation and evidence proves that I am correct. And certainly, I would not want to invoke the "negative karma" associated within misguiding people. What I am posting on America Online is very serious. All of you must study the Will & Testament, The Dispensation of Baha'u'llah: Administrative Section," the 1951 Proclamation of Shoghi Effendi to all national assemblies, and various other crucial letters from Shoghi Effendi that are difficult to round up. The Third Guardian's Web Site at: https://wantree.com.au/techbase/bahai/guardian.html can provide most of them for you. YOU ARE INNOCENT PARTICIPANTS IN A RAPIDLY INCREASINGLY POWERFUL ORGANIZATION THAT HAS VIOLATED BAHA'U'LLAH'S COVENANT! Please, do not fear what I am telling you. Trust in the Divine Spirit to guide your intellect and heart. God will surely protect you and enable you to find the truth, providing that you are truly detached. (Refer to the Tablet of the True Seeker. I believe it begins on page 196 in the Book of Certitude). I have been publicly accused of breaking the Covenant of the Manifestation of God that I have devoted my life to. I am willing and able (if it is God's Will, and He continues to strengthen me) to stand firm on my convictions. I will not abdicate my responsibility to Baha'u'llah. There is one other thing that needs clarification. I am not afilliated in any way to the people that call themselves the "BUPC," or the "Baha'is Under the Provisions of the Covenant," who claim that Leland Jensen, one of their members, was the return of Jesus and the Lamb of God. In my research, which included of course, researching the material from the BUPC, I did not recognize the pattern of Baha'u'llah's Covenant in their organization. Although they too recognize that the Hands violated the Covenant, their organization later took off in another direction that is incompatible with Baha'u'llah's Covenant. I hope that this has helped to clarify my position. Love and Light, Your Baha'i brother, Brent Reed From - Thu Apr 10 08:10:39 1997 >From brentreed@aol.com Thu Mar 13 03:03:29 1997 Received: (from root@localhost) by emout16.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id FAA21564; Thu, 13 Mar 1997 05:57:14 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 05:57:14 -0500 (EST) From: BrentReed@aol.com Message-ID: <970313055713_-802260433@emout16.mail.aol.com> Subject: My Open Letter to All Sans-Guardian Baha'is X-Mozilla-Status: 0004 Content-Length: 6335 An Open Letter to All Baha'is March 14, 1997 Dear Baha'i brothers and sisters: I am sorry that I have apparently not been clear enough in my various attempts to explain my discovery of the greatest Violation of Baha'u'llah's Covenant in Its history, and my consequent departure from the organization loyal to the "UHJ" whose leaders (the Hands) initiated that Violation, and then my declaration of Faith to the Third Guardian of the Baha'i Faith, Joel B. Marangella, who (whether you agree at this time or not) is the true faithful Guardian of your Faith. Sooner or later most of you will discover it to be so. I am a Baha'i just like you. Since I was 19, I was loyal to the organization under the "Universal House of Justice" in Haifa, Israel, just like you are. But thorough research has ABSOLUTELY and IRREVOCABLY convinced me that the leaders (Hands of the Cause, exept for the Hand, Mason Remey) of the Faith organization that I used to belong to - and that you still have your affiliation with - usurped power that was not theirs and violated Baha'u'llah's Covenant! Shoghi Effendi, the First Guardian, did in fact choose a successor. His name was Mason Remey. Mason Remey chose Joel Marangella to be his successor. Joel Marangella is now the Third Guardian of the Baha'i Faith. He is American. In order to help prevent confusion, the Third Guardian has temporarily named the the true Faith under his Guardianship, the Orthodox Baha'i Faith. The Guardianship was never supposed to end - and it has not! Did you know, that according to the Will & Testament and the Dispensation of Baha'u'llah: Administrative Section, that 1.) The Guardianship was not only meant to continue through the ages of Baha'u'llah's Dispensation, and that is what is meant by "The Day that Shall not be Followed by Night," but without it the "World Order of Baha'u'llah would become mutilated." 2.) The Guardian is supposed to be one of the nine members of the Universal House of Justice. 3.) As the Divinely appointed Interpreter of the Writings, he must make sure that the Legislative Branch (the UHJ) creates legislation that is consistent with the Baha'i Teachings. 4.) The UHJ is barred from interpreting the Writings. As one of the nine members, he is the only one who is not elected. He is the "sacred head for life of that body." The current imposter UHJ in Haifa does not have the Guardian as its sacred head. It has nine instead of eight elected members. Without the Divinely appointed Interpreter its legislation is not "freed from error." In addition, without a Guardian your organization will have no more Hands of the Cause, which Baha'u'llah set up as a permanent, unending institution, just like the Guardianship and the UHJ. You see, the Guardian must appoint the Hands. The UHJ cannot do this. Thus, in summation, by erroneously declaring that Shoghi Effendi had appointed no successor in 1957, and ending the Guardianship, the Hands destroyed all three Institutions of Baha'u'llah's World Order. The only institution that your organization has is one called the "Universal House of Justice." But it is NOT the Universal House of Justice foretold by Baha'u'llah. It is a man-made abomination. Despite all of the progress that you see now; despite the many properties that are being built, despite the fact that 5 million or so Baha'is give their allegiance to that organization, you must try to grasp the fact that IT IS NOT THE SUPREME BODY FORTOLD BY BAHA'U'LLAH. IT IS A COUNTERFEIT! It was truly a shock for me to discover that I had actually been in the Covenant-breaking organization since I was 19! My precious Baha'i brothers and sisters, of course you do not know me, but I am a very intelligent individual that has been VERY committed to Baha'u'llah since I was 19 years old. I am capable of making intelligent, rational decisions, and I am not insane, and would never embark on this journey of devoting my time and energy to publicly informing all Baha'is under the UHJ that they are on the wrong course, unless I were totally sure that documentation and evidence proves that I am correct. And certainly, I would not want to invoke the "negative karma" associated within misguiding people. What I am posting on America Online is very serious. All of you must study the Will & Testament, The Dispensation of Baha'u'llah: Administrative Section," the 1951 Proclamation of Shoghi Effendi to all national assemblies, and various other crucial letters from Shoghi Effendi that are difficult to round up. The Third Guardian's Web Site at: https://wantree.com.au/techbase/bahai/guardian.html can provide most of them for you. YOU ARE INNOCENT PARTICIPANTS IN A RAPIDLY INCREASINGLY POWERFUL ORGANIZATION THAT HAS VIOLATED BAHA'U'LLAH'S COVENANT! Please, do not fear what I am telling you. Trust in the Divine Spirit to guide your intellect and heart. God will surely protect you and enable you to find the truth, providing that you are truly detached. (Refer to the Tablet of the True Seeker. I believe it begins on page 196 in the Book of Certitude). I have been publicly accused of breaking the Covenant of the Manifestation of God that I have devoted my life to. I am willing and able (if it is God's Will, and He continues to strengthen me) to stand firm on my convictions. I will not abdicate my responsibility to Baha'u'llah. There is one other thing that needs clarification. I am not afilliated in any way to the people that call themselves the "BUPC," or the "Baha'is Under the Provisions of the Covenant," who claim that Leland Jensen, one of their members, was the return of Jesus and the Lamb of God. In my research, which included of course, researching the material from the BUPC, I did not recognize the pattern of Baha'u'llah's Covenant in their organization. Although they too recognize that the Hands violated the Covenant, their organization later took off in another direction that is incompatible with Baha'u'llah's Covenant. I hope that this has helped to clarify my position. Love and Light, Your Baha'i brother, Brent Reed From - Mon Apr 07 07:53:37 1997 >From osborndo@pilot.msu.edu Tue Apr 1 07:06:16 1997 Received: from algeria (meke.isp.msu.edu [35.8.242.49]) by pilot04.cl.msu.edu (8.7.5/MSU-2.10) id KAA85840; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 10:04:22 -0500 Message-Id: <199704011504.KAA85840@pilot04.cl.msu.edu> Date: Tue, 01 Apr 97 10:08:35 -0800 From: Donald Zhang Osborn Organization: ---- X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.22 (Windows; I; 16bit) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: news.groups,talk.religion.misc,soc.rights.human,alt.religion.islam,soc.culture.iranian,soc.culture.is rael To: FG@hotmail.com Subject: Netiquette & net ethics (was Re: Open Letter...) References: <5ho9c5$629$1@bilbo.reference.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 688 FG@hotmail.com wrote (in part): >I include, at the end, a threatening, coercive email message I [snip] The private E-mail you posted on Usenet did not appear in the least to be either "threatening" or "coercive." Without talking with its sender how can you have been so sure of its intent? Furthermore, the reposting of private E-mail to public newsgroups strikes one as a breach of netiquette if not outright unethical. As one who expresses a concern for justice, it would be consistent for you to reconsider this practice. DZO P.S.- Out of respect for the other news groups, please limit follow-ups to news:news.groups &/or news:talk.religion.misc From - Wed Feb 12 07:55:18 1997 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.36) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Wed, 12 Feb 1997 07:43:09 -0500 Message-ID: <3301BC9E.66A9@moa.net> Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 07:50:38 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: news.groups To: Susan Maneck Subject: Re: New Group References: <5dr1fe$9ov@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Content-Length: 3675 Susan Maneck wrote: > > Peggy wrote: > > > Better, I think to use your vote to let prevent the negative consequences > > such an "open" forum could create. To abstain is to let others decide, to > > vote one way or the other is to make a choice. > > How about the negative consequences of the censored and manipulated forum of soc.religion.bahai? Look on news.groups for a one Susan Maneck's censored messages.... > > I think it is our duty to do whatever we can to protect the Faith, and to be > > sure that it is being presented in a way that attracts others to the > > Messenger and the message. Lies and censorship don't attract most people around the world.... Covenant Breakers who are given free reign to > > express their opinions on a Baha'i-supported forum will slow down the > > progress of the Faith, and indeed, the progress of mankind. > Do you imagine the stifling atmosphere in which no one dares express an opinion is helping the progress of the faith? > As one who does not to support the new list I am rather bothered by > the implications of this logic. As the moderators have pointed > out a "no" vote signifies that we see a problem in the charter. It > would be unethical to use that vote for any other purpose, especially > in order to shut up voices we don't want heard. That is clearly now precisely the motivation of many who will vote no. There are individuals agitating for such a campaign. We have a duty to > present the Faith in a way that attracts others. Ditto, ditto, ditto. We do *not* have a > duty to control the way others choose to present it. > I personally don't think such a Baha'i forum could > successfully operate under the conditions Fred wants because there > already are Baha'i forums such as Talisman II in which the free > expression of ideas can be made so long as personal attacks are > avoided. Talisman is in effect censored too. They have there own pet little ideas. The listserv of freedom and liberalism: a fascist bunch of academics, IMHO. And I am one who spent fourteen years of his life in that increasingly fascist milieu.... Most people who feel a need for this have already found such > a cyberhome. Not I. This leaves the flame-throwers and the CB's. Baha'is in > are prohibited from engaging in dialogues with CB's so there should > be no followup to whatever they post. So how much discussion is > likely to go on? Frankly I don't think there is enough interest in > this list to make it go. I'm convinced it's going to pass if the no voters don't distort and corrupt the process. If most people simply abstain it will > not happen. And even if it does form, my guess is it will die away > quickly from lack of interest. Flame wars get boring after awhile. > The assumption here is it will be nothing but flame wars. It's even raised to the level of an argument by now. I don't believe it's justifiable. There will be some flame wars, I suppose, but there should some worthwhile and productive exchanges of opinion. Only those who enjoy or want to squelch others' thinking would assume it's all going to be "flame wars." A falacious argument, IMHO. > If such a list serves no constructive purpose show your disinterest > by abstaining. Do not damage the integrity of the Faith by voting > against it for reasons not considered legitimate under the guidelines > within which we operate. > Good advice under the guidelines for forming newsgroups. > Susan Which way's it going to be Susan? You can't have both. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Thu Feb 13 06:14:28 1997 Received: from drew.berry.edu (168.31.232.19) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Wed, 12 Feb 1997 08:56:22 -0500 Received: from odin.berry.edu (odin.berry.edu [168.31.232.26]) by drew.berry.edu (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id IAA13695 for <@moa.net>; Wed, 12 Feb 1997 08:08:41 -0500 Received: from ODIN/SpoolDir by odin.berry.edu (Mercury 1.21); 12 Feb 97 09:14:13 -400 Received: from SpoolDir by ODIN (Mercury 1.30); 12 Feb 97 09:14:03 -400 From: "Susan Maneck" Organization: Berry College To: Frederick Glaysher <@moa.net> Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 09:14:01 EST Subject: Re: New Group Reply-to: SManeck@berry.edu Priority: normal In-reply-to: <3301BC8B.5A05@moa.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) Message-ID: <285C5723B60@odin.berry.edu> X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Content-Length: 184 Dear Frederick, Since you chose to post my letter in the newsgroup without asking I would appreciate it if you will tell me how to post there myself so I can answer. Susan From - Thu Feb 13 06:29:46 1997 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.56) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 06:11:18 -0500 Message-ID: <3302F89D.14DB@moa.net> Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 06:18:53 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: SManeck@berry.edu Subject: Re: New Group References: <285C5723B60@odin.berry.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Content-Length: 551 Susan Maneck wrote: > > Dear Frederick, > > Since you chose to post my letter in the newsgroup without asking I > would appreciate it if you will tell me how to post there myself so I > can answer. > > Susan If you can't connect directly to news.groups under the the news.* hierarchy, use the www.dejanews.com. You can search there under news.groups and then by key words like Bahai, talk.religion.bahai, etc..... Follow the menu buttons. You can post a reply or whatever. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Thu Feb 13 06:18:53 1997 BCC: @MOA.net Message-ID: <3302F89D.14DB@moa.net> Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 06:18:53 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: SManeck@berry.edu Subject: Re: New Group References: <285C5723B60@odin.berry.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Content-Length: 553 Susan Maneck wrote: > > Dear Frederick, > > Since you chose to post my letter in the newsgroup without asking I > would appreciate it if you will tell me how to post there myself so I > can answer. > > Susan If you can't connect directly to news.groups under the the news.* hierarchy, use the www.dejanews.com. You can search there under news.groups and then by key words like Bahai, talk.religion.bahai, etc..... Follow the menu buttons. You can post a reply or whatever. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Thu Feb 13 06:14:33 1997 Received: from drew.berry.edu (168.31.232.19) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:00:45 -0500 Received: from odin.berry.edu (odin.berry.edu [168.31.232.26]) by drew.berry.edu (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id LAA17496; Wed, 12 Feb 1997 11:12:50 -0500 Received: from ODIN/SpoolDir by odin.berry.edu (Mercury 1.21); 12 Feb 97 12:18:25 -400 Received: from SpoolDir by ODIN (Mercury 1.30); 12 Feb 97 12:18:14 -400 From: "Susan Maneck" Organization: Berry College To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:18:07 EST Subject: Re: New Group Reply-to: SManeck@berry.edu CC: @moa.net Priority: normal In-reply-to: <5dsko2$ee7@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) Message-ID: <288D75E4ADA@odin.berry.edu> X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Content-Length: 6468 Frederick writes: > How about the negative consequences of the censored and manipulated > forum of soc.religion.bahai? Look on news.groups for a one Susan Maneck's > censored messages.... Since you raise this issue let me discuss what happened between myself and the moderators. There was a message which one of the moderators returned to me after three days without posting. I protested and asked them to reconsider their decision not to allow me to post this. When I did not hear from them after a day I mistakenly assumed they were ignoring my request and therefore posted this instance of "censorship" on Talisman, forwarding copies to each of the moderators. My conern was that the moderators might be using their position to restrict the free-flow of information. This turned out not to be the case. Two of the moderators responding on Talisman and what followed was a very fruitful consultation. I discovered that the moderator in question was new at the job and had been having 'technical difficulties' which had prevented responses and posting from being done in a timely fashion. The posting I made was rejected for reasons of redundancy because the moderators were planning to post something from Steve Scholl which gave a first hand account of the events in question. Seeing that, I withdrew the bulk of my post. The moderators who took the time out of their very harried schedule to discussed in depth with the Talisman list the nature and propriety of Baha'i lists in general. I would like to share with you some of the snidbit of our consultation. A moderator: > > > > But we get tired of it. And the readers get tired of it. > > > > Many have un-subscribed from the bahai-faith email echo as a > > > > result of the long angry threads on three subjects: Come on, > > > > you can guess them... homosexuality, Women on the House, and > > > > Censorship. Me: > > > > > > But where is the anger coming from, ****? A moderator: > > > > The anger? Mine? I'm not angry. I'm tired. Sorry. Sometimes > > that doesn't come out clear in my writing. ME: > I wasn't referring to your anger. I meant those longstanding Baha'is > who were making sanctimonious posts about how the Institutions > always know what they are doing and we shouldn't question it, and > who threaten to unsubscribe if we keep asking too many uncomfortable > issues. These are the things that make the threads long and angry. > Then another moderator made this magnificent post that won the hearts of all the Talismanians: "Right. And here is my personal view. IMO, one of the beauties of the newsgroup is that it DOES force these out into the open where they can be dealt with. And these threads will remain long and angry until not only the Baha'is you are talking about but ALL the Baha'is learn to truly consult. Forget our preconceived notions, really listen, try to put ourselves in each others shoes, respect our differing opinions, and look for that spark of truth that `Abdu'l-Baha talked about that is always out there but hidden behind everyone's egos and hidden agendas. That sure would make our lives as moderators a lot easier." In my opinion this is precisely what SRB should be about. Let me to also share with you my personal response to the moderators after our consultation on Talisman was finished: > Dear *** and ****, > > Although I regret not having given the moderators a better benefit > of a doubt on this issue, I must say I am rather glad it happened > and that the both of you took time out of your busy schedules to > "deal" with this matter in such a forthright manner with the > Talisman list. You successfully presented to a the most skeptical of > audiences a wonderful example of what frank and loving consultation > can lead to when all involved are willing to truly listen. > (snip) Only by consulting with the > community at large without recrimination can we hope to resolve some > of our difficulties. > > Thank you for your patience and understanding and please keep us in > your prayers. > > love, Susan For the record, let me say I am more than satisfied with the way in which SRB is being moderated. Do they make mistakes? Of course, and I've made a few myself :-) But they are not "spiking" post, nor are the censoring messages in order to stop the free-flow of information or views, ( with the possible exception of not allowing Remeyites to express their opinions on issues related to the Covenant.) What they are doing is preventing personal attacks, intervening in flamewars, and attempting to limit the amount of endless repitition on a single theme. To my comment: > We do *not* have a > > duty to control the way others choose to present it. > > I personally don't think such a Baha'i forum could > > successfully operate under the conditions Fred wants because there > > already are Baha'i forums such as Talisman II in which the free > > expression of ideas can be made so long as personal attacks are > > avoided. Frederick wrote: > > Talisman is in effect censored too. They have there own pet little > ideas. The listserv of freedom and liberalism: a fascist bunch of > academics, IMHO. And I am one who spent fourteen years of his life > in that increasingly fascist milieu.... Talisman II is an unmoderated list serv. It has few rules, but one of them is avoiding personal attacks. Frederick could not live within those guidelines. He was violently offensive and succeeded in alienating all sides, on a list which justly has the reputation of being tumultuous. The members of the list were virtually unanimous in asking that he be unsubscribed. Yes, Fred, I suppose you have the right to say whatever you wish. We have the right not to be your dumping ground. If anyone wishes to be "dumped on" and engage in the kind of endless flame wars which Frederick seems to equate with free speech you are welcome to join his list. I certainly intend to do nothing to block its formation. This is not about censorship, it is about the common courtesy necessary for any fruitful consultation. I would appreciate it if someone could post a copy of this message onto the newsgroup, inasmuch as Frederick has seen fit to post my accusation of censorship there. Susan From - Thu Feb 13 08:35:25 1997 Received: from usr07.primenet.com (206.165.5.107) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 07:15:37 -0500 Received: (from rdetweil@localhost) by usr07.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA14606; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 05:21:12 -0700 (MST) From: "Richard C. Detweiler" Message-Id: <199702131221.FAA14606@usr07.primenet.com> Subject: Re: New Group To: @moa.net Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 05:21:11 -0700 (MST) Cc: srb-mods@bcca.org In-Reply-To: <33030661.2BD3@moa.net> from "Frederick Glaysher" at Feb 13, 97 07:17:37 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Content-Length: 8046 Dear Fred, By now you know what is and is not acceptable discourse for the newsgroup. I am returning this to you for editting. Once again I will remind you that you are free to disagree with others on the newsgroup but it must be done in a respectful manner. You may post this anywhere else you like, but it will not be posted in this form on soc.religion.bahai. Dick Detweiler co-fascist, soc.religion.bahai > From: FG <@moa.net> > Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai > Subject: Re: New Group > Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 07:17:37 -0500 > Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A. > Lines: 186 > Message-ID: <33030661.2BD3@moa.net> > References: <5dtoc2$iis@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> > Reply-To: @moa.net > NNTP-Posting-Host: zeus.moa.net > Mime-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) > To: Susan Maneck > Content-Length: 6443 > > Susan Maneck wrote: > > > > Frederick writes: > > > > > How about the negative consequences of the censored and manipulated > > > forum of soc.religion.bahai? Look on news.groups for a one Susan Maneck's > > > censored messages.... > > > > Since you raise this issue, and placed my posting there without my > > consent, let me discuss what happened between myself and the > > moderators. > > > > Because you're a two-faced coward, Susan. One minute opposed to > censorship, the next supporting it.... > > > There was a message which one of the > > moderators returned to me after three days informing me that > > they did not intend to post it. > > "Did not intend to post it"..... > > I protested and asked > > them to reconsider their decision.. > > > > When I did not hear from them after a day I > > mistakenly assumed they were ignoring my request and therefore posted > > this instance of "censorship" on Talisman, forwarding copies to each > > of the moderators. I was conerned that the moderators might be > > using their position to restrict the free-flow of information. > > Why would you think that? > > This > > turned out not to be the case. > > > > Two of the moderators responding on Talisman > > and what followed was a very fruitful consultation. I discovered that > > the moderator in question was new at the job and had been having > > 'technical difficulties' which had prevented responses and posting > > from being done in a timely fashion. The posting I made was rejected > > for reasons of redundancy because the moderators were planning to > > post something from Steve Scholl which gave a first hand account of > > the events in question. Seeing that, I withdrew the bulk of my post. > > > > Yours is not redundant. It adds weight to the discussion. > > [clip] > > > A moderator: > > > > clip > > > > > A moderator: > > > > > > > > The anger? Mine? I'm not angry. I'm tired. Sorry. Sometimes > > > > that doesn't come out clear in my writing. > > > > ME: > > > > > I wasn't referring to your anger. I meant those longstanding Baha'is > > (snip) > > > who threaten to unsubscribe if we keep asking too many uncomfortable > > > issues. These are the things that make the threads long and angry. > > > > > And so we should ask them, to keep them happy, living in their vague, > idealistic dream world.... > > > > > Then another moderator made this magnificent post that won the hearts > > of all the Talismanians: > > > > "Right. And here is my personal view. IMO, one of the beauties of > > the newsgroup is that it DOES force these out into the open where > > they can be dealt with. And these threads will remain long and angry > > until not only the Baha'is you are talking about but ALL the Baha'is > > learn to truly consult. Forget our preconceived notions, really > > listen, try to put ourselves in each others shoes, respect our > > differing opinions, and look for that spark of truth that > > `Abdu'l-Baha talked about that is always out there but hidden behind > > everyone's egos and hidden agendas. That sure would make our lives > > as moderators a lot easier." > > > > In the moderators' practice, it's more like smother the spark of > truth, stamped it out.... > > > In my opinion this is precisely what SRB should be about. Let > > me to also share with you my personal response to the moderators > > after our consultation on Talisman was finished: > > > > Vague, meaningless flourish toward reform? > > > > Dear *** and ****, > > > > > > (snip)clip > > > Only by consulting with the > > > community at large without recrimination can we hope to resolve some > > > of our difficulties. > > > > > > Thank you for your patience and understanding and please keep us in > > > your prayers. > > > > > > love, Susan > > > > For the record, let me say I am more than satisfied with the way in > > which SRB is being moderated. Do they make mistakes? > > Now you support the fascists.... What have they promised you? A > castle in Bavaria? > > Of course, and > > I've made a few myself :-) But they are not "spiking" post, nor are > > the censoring messages in order to stop the free-flow of information > > or views, ( with the possible exception of not allowing Remeyites to > > express their opinions on issues related to the Covenant.) What they > > are attempting to do is prevent personal attacks, intervene > > in flamewars, and limit the amount of endless > > repitition on a single topic. > > > > Now they're holy saints.... > > > To my comment: > > > > > We do *not* have a > > > > duty to control the way others choose to present it. > > > > I personally don't think such a Baha'i forum could > > > > successfully operate under the conditions Fred wants because there > > > > already are Baha'i forums such as Talisman II in which the free > > > > expression of ideas can be made so long as personal attacks are > > > > avoided. > > > > Frederick wrote: > > > > > > Talisman is in effect censored too. They have there own pet little > > > ideas. The listserv of freedom and liberalism: a fascist bunch of > > > academics, IMHO. And I am one who spent fourteen years of his life > > > in that increasingly fascist milieu.... > > > > Talisman II is an unmoderated list serv. It has few rules, but one of > > them is to avoid personal attacks. An individual recently > > could not live within those guidelines. He was violently offensive > > and succeeded in alienating all sides, on a list which justly has the > > reputation of being tumultuous. The members of the list were > > virtually unanimous in asking that he be unsubscribed. > > And that's not censorship. THEY'RE still the listserv of light and > truth.... "Violently offensive": what shameless, deceitful > characterization.... > > Yes, Fred, I > > suppose you have the right to say whatever you wish. *We* have the > > right not to be your dumping ground. If anyone wishes to be "dumped > > on" and engage in the kind of endless flame wars which Frederick > > seems to equate with free speech you are welcome to join his list. I > > certainly intend to do nothing to block its formation. > > > > Same old rhetoric, Susan. I don't, incidentally, consider it my list. > That's the cute argument of others who permit their own kind of > "dumping." Like dumping one position and hoisting another when it > suits your moods or motives.... > > > This is not about censorship, it is about the common courtesy > > necessary for any fruitful consultation. > > > > False. It is about censorship, that of the moderators, which you've > experienced, and don't have the honesty apparently to confront. Why the > backpaddling now? > > > > Susan > > -- > love, > > Frederick Glaysher > Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > From - Thu Feb 13 16:28:28 1997 Received: from drew.berry.edu (168.31.232.19) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 10:32:57 -0500 Received: from odin.berry.edu (odin.berry.edu [168.31.232.26]) by drew.berry.edu (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id JAA31151; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 09:45:08 -0500 Received: from ODIN/SpoolDir by odin.berry.edu (Mercury 1.21); 13 Feb 97 10:51:12 -400 Received: from SpoolDir by ODIN (Mercury 1.30); 13 Feb 97 10:51:03 -400 From: "Susan Maneck" Organization: Berry College To: Frederick Glaysher <@moa.net> Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 10:50:58 EST Subject: Re: New Group Reply-to: SManeck@berry.edu CC: srb-mods@bcca.org Priority: normal In-reply-to: <33030661.2BD3@moa.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) Message-ID: <29F64056652@odin.berry.edu> X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Content-Length: 1022 Dear Frederick, Since you obviously have no compunction about broadcasting my private postings to you, you can expect this will be our last communication. Most lists have moderators which limit the types of posts that can be made. This is not a Baha'i innovation. None of us need your venom. If you want your own private list in which to spew it, by all means form one. Perhaps after you have alienated everyone and find there is no one left to talk to you might recognize that maybe it is *you* who has the problem. Call it censorship if you wish, I call it exercising our right not to be your dumping ground. There were those on Talisman who were willing to be your friend, but you would not have it. You use your anger to keep others at bay. Your last posting to the list left everyone fearful you were a danger to yourself and others. You need help, Frederick, and I pray to God you get it. But I am not under any illusions that there is very much we can do to provide it. Susan From - Thu Feb 13 16:57:16 1997 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.43) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 16:28:52 -0500 Message-ID: <33038951.6886@moa.net> Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 16:36:17 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: SManeck@berry.edu Subject: Re: New Group References: <29F64056652@odin.berry.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Content-Length: 1571 Susan Maneck wrote: > > Dear Frederick, > > Since you obviously have no compunction about broadcasting my private > postings to you, you can expect this will be our last communication. > Most lists have moderators which limit the types of posts that can be > made. This is not a Baha'i innovation. None of us need your venom. > If you want your own private list in which to spew it, by all means > form one. Perhaps after you have alienated everyone and find there is > no one left to talk to you might recognize that maybe it is *you* who > has the problem. Call it censorship if you wish, I call it exercising > our right not to be your dumping ground. > > There were those on Talisman who were willing to be your friend, > but you would not have it. You use your anger to keep others at bay. > Your last posting to the list left everyone fearful you were a danger > to yourself and others. You need help, Frederick, and I pray to God > you get it. But I am not under any illusions that there is very much > we can do to provide it. > > Susan Oh, baloney. You stabbed me in the back and then expect holiness on my part.... I've heard all this rhetoric before. You're the one who's angry, angry that I revealed to everyone what you actually think of the contemptible censorship on srb. Have some guts and tell them outright yourself. You're all so accustomed to manipulating and coercing other Bahais you don't what to make of someone who won't take it any more.... Love, Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Thu Feb 13 16:36:17 1997 BCC: @MOA.net Message-ID: <33038951.6886@moa.net> Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 16:36:17 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: SManeck@berry.edu Subject: Re: New Group References: <29F64056652@odin.berry.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Content-Length: 1573 Susan Maneck wrote: > > Dear Frederick, > > Since you obviously have no compunction about broadcasting my private > postings to you, you can expect this will be our last communication. > Most lists have moderators which limit the types of posts that can be > made. This is not a Baha'i innovation. None of us need your venom. > If you want your own private list in which to spew it, by all means > form one. Perhaps after you have alienated everyone and find there is > no one left to talk to you might recognize that maybe it is *you* who > has the problem. Call it censorship if you wish, I call it exercising > our right not to be your dumping ground. > > There were those on Talisman who were willing to be your friend, > but you would not have it. You use your anger to keep others at bay. > Your last posting to the list left everyone fearful you were a danger > to yourself and others. You need help, Frederick, and I pray to God > you get it. But I am not under any illusions that there is very much > we can do to provide it. > > Susan Oh, baloney. You stabbed me in the back and then expect holiness on my part.... I've heard all this rhetoric before. You're the one who's angry, angry that I revealed to everyone what you actually think of the contemptible censorship on srb. Have some guts and tell them outright yourself. You're all so accustomed to manipulating and coercing other Bahais you don't what to make of someone who won't take it any more.... Love, Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Fri Feb 14 06:49:59 1997 Received: from drew.berry.edu (168.31.232.19) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 23:15:55 -0500 Received: from odin.berry.edu (odin.berry.edu [168.31.232.26]) by drew.berry.edu (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id WAA07422 for <@moa.net>; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 22:26:54 -0500 Received: from ODIN/SpoolDir by odin.berry.edu (Mercury 1.21); 13 Feb 97 23:33:23 -400 Received: from SpoolDir by ODIN (Mercury 1.30); 13 Feb 97 23:32:39 -400 From: "Susan Maneck" Organization: Berry College To: Frederick Glaysher <@moa.net> Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 23:32:34 EST Subject: Re: New Group Reply-to: SManeck@berry.edu Priority: normal In-reply-to: <33038951.6886@moa.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) Message-ID: <2AC15DE080A@odin.berry.edu> X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Content-Length: 245 Dear Frederick, You're the one > who's angry, angry that I revealed to everyone what you actually > think of the contemptible censorship on srb. Have some guts and > tell them outright yourself. I did, quite publicly. Susan > From - Fri Feb 14 08:40:11 1997 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.60) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Fri, 14 Feb 1997 06:47:16 -0500 Message-ID: <33045284.5396@moa.net> Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 06:54:44 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: SManeck@berry.edu Subject: Re: New Group References: <2AC15DE080A@odin.berry.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Content-Length: 415 Susan Maneck wrote: > > Dear Frederick, > > You're the one > > who's angry, angry that I revealed to everyone what you actually > > think of the contemptible censorship on srb. Have some guts and > > tell them outright yourself. > > I did, quite publicly. > > Susan > > When? When you stabbed me in the back on srb the other day? Love, Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Fri Feb 14 06:54:44 1997 BCC: @MOA.net Message-ID: <33045284.5396@moa.net> Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 06:54:44 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: SManeck@berry.edu Subject: Re: New Group References: <2AC15DE080A@odin.berry.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Content-Length: 417 Susan Maneck wrote: > > Dear Frederick, > > You're the one > > who's angry, angry that I revealed to everyone what you actually > > think of the contemptible censorship on srb. Have some guts and > > tell them outright yourself. > > I did, quite publicly. > > Susan > > When? When you stabbed me in the back on srb the other day? Love, Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Sun Feb 16 08:44:31 1997 Received: from drew.berry.edu (168.31.232.19) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Sat, 15 Feb 1997 15:14:53 -0500 Received: from odin.berry.edu (odin.berry.edu [168.31.232.26]) by drew.berry.edu (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id OAA23181; Sat, 15 Feb 1997 14:25:33 -0500 Received: from ODIN/SpoolDir by odin.berry.edu (Mercury 1.21); 15 Feb 97 15:32:51 -400 Received: from SpoolDir by ODIN (Mercury 1.30); 15 Feb 97 15:32:35 -400 From: "Susan Maneck" Organization: Berry College To: Frederick Glaysher <@moa.net>, @moa.net Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 15:32:30 EST Subject: Re: New Group Reply-to: SManeck@berry.edu Priority: normal In-reply-to: <33045284.5396@moa.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) Message-ID: <2D416C266C3@odin.berry.edu> X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Content-Length: 262 > When? When you stabbed me in the back on srb the other day? You stabbed me in the back when by posting that thing on the Newsgroup when I told you to hold off to see if I could resolve. Sorry, that you were so dissappointed it got resolved. Susan From - Sun Feb 16 11:27:21 1997 BCC: @MOA.net Message-ID: <33073569.1B1F@moa.net> Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 11:27:21 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: SManeck@berry.edu Subject: Re: New Group References: <2D416C266C3@odin.berry.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Content-Length: 924 Susan Maneck wrote: > > > When? When you stabbed me in the back on srb the other day? > > You stabbed me in the back when by posting that thing on the > Newsgroup when I told you to hold off to see if I could resolve. > Sorry, that you were so dissappointed it got resolved. > > Susan In this case (I do feel a little ashamed of it), one good stab deserves another.... YOU stabbed first! Surely, in your heart of hearts, you realize there's no resolving the situation on srb short of an unmoderated forum. I don't want to see the covenant breakers have a place to post, but let's face it, they're all so goofy in their claims I can't imagine it will matter. Let somebody authoritative stand up and say so. The issues are more important than those few crackpots.... I genuinely believe trb would help the growth of the Faith. Love, Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Sun Feb 16 11:27:55 1997 BCC: @MOA.net Message-ID: <33073569.1B1F@moa.net> Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 11:27:55 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: SManeck@berry.edu Subject: Re: New Group References: <2D416C266C3@odin.berry.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Content-Length: 924 Susan Maneck wrote: > > > When? When you stabbed me in the back on srb the other day? > > You stabbed me in the back when by posting that thing on the > Newsgroup when I told you to hold off to see if I could resolve. > Sorry, that you were so dissappointed it got resolved. > > Susan In this case (I do feel a little ashamed of it), one good stab deserves another.... YOU stabbed first! Surely, in your heart of hearts, you realize there's no resolving the situation on srb short of an unmoderated forum. I don't want to see the covenant breakers have a place to post, but let's face it, they're all so goofy in their claims I can't imagine it will matter. Let somebody authoritative stand up and say so. The issues are more important than those few crackpots.... I genuinely believe trb would help the growth of the Faith. Love, Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Sun Feb 16 11:29:20 1997 Received: from default (204.38.255.186) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Sun, 16 Feb 1997 11:21:13 -0500 Message-ID: <33073569.1B1F@moa.net> Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 11:28:43 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: SManeck@berry.edu Subject: Re: New Group References: <2D416C266C3@odin.berry.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Content-Length: 922 Susan Maneck wrote: > > > When? When you stabbed me in the back on srb the other day? > > You stabbed me in the back when by posting that thing on the > Newsgroup when I told you to hold off to see if I could resolve. > Sorry, that you were so dissappointed it got resolved. > > Susan In this case (I do feel a little ashamed of it), one good stab deserves another.... YOU stabbed first! Surely, in your heart of hearts, you realize there's no resolving the situation on srb short of an unmoderated forum. I don't want to see the covenant breakers have a place to post, but let's face it, they're all so goofy in their claims I can't imagine it will matter. Let somebody authoritative stand up and say so. The issues are more important than those few crackpots.... I genuinely believe trb would help the growth of the Faith. Love, Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Sun Feb 16 11:28:43 1997 BCC: @MOA.net Message-ID: <33073569.1B1F@moa.net> Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 11:28:43 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: SManeck@berry.edu Subject: Re: New Group References: <2D416C266C3@odin.berry.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Content-Length: 924 Susan Maneck wrote: > > > When? When you stabbed me in the back on srb the other day? > > You stabbed me in the back when by posting that thing on the > Newsgroup when I told you to hold off to see if I could resolve. > Sorry, that you were so dissappointed it got resolved. > > Susan In this case (I do feel a little ashamed of it), one good stab deserves another.... YOU stabbed first! Surely, in your heart of hearts, you realize there's no resolving the situation on srb short of an unmoderated forum. I don't want to see the covenant breakers have a place to post, but let's face it, they're all so goofy in their claims I can't imagine it will matter. Let somebody authoritative stand up and say so. The issues are more important than those few crackpots.... I genuinely believe trb would help the growth of the Faith. Love, Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Sun Feb 16 19:37:29 1997 Received: from drew.berry.edu (168.31.232.19) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Sun, 16 Feb 1997 15:41:31 -0500 Received: from odin.berry.edu (odin.berry.edu [168.31.232.26]) by drew.berry.edu (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id OAA28586 for <@moa.net>; Sun, 16 Feb 1997 14:51:58 -0500 Received: from ODIN/SpoolDir by odin.berry.edu (Mercury 1.21); 16 Feb 97 16:00:00 -400 Received: from SpoolDir by ODIN (Mercury 1.30); 16 Feb 97 15:59:26 -400 From: "Susan Maneck" Organization: Berry College To: Frederick Glaysher <@moa.net> Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 15:59:16 EST Subject: Re: New Group Reply-to: SManeck@berry.edu Priority: normal In-reply-to: <33073569.1B1F@moa.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) Message-ID: <2EC89FB60CF@odin.berry.edu> X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Content-Length: 301 Frederick, You wrote: > Surely, in your heart of hearts, you realize there's no resolving > the situation on srb short of an unmoderated forum. No I don't believe that. I have found it quite possible to be able to work with the existing system by consulting with the moderators. Susan From - Thu Feb 13 08:35:20 1997 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.35) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 07:10:38 -0500 Message-ID: <3303067D.1FC3@moa.net> Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 07:18:05 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: news.groups To: Susan Maneck Subject: Re: New Group: Maneck References: <5dtoc2$iis@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Content-Length: 6627 Susan Maneck wrote: > > Frederick writes: > > > How about the negative consequences of the censored and manipulated > > forum of soc.religion.bahai? Look on news.groups for a one Susan Maneck's > > censored messages.... > > Since you raise this issue, and placed my posting there without my > consent, let me discuss what happened between myself and the > moderators. > Because you're a two-faced coward, Susan. One minute opposed to censorship, the next supporting it.... > There was a message which one of the > moderators returned to me after three days informing me that > they did not intend to post it. "Did not intend to post it"..... I protested and asked > them to reconsider their decision.. > > When I did not hear from them after a day I > mistakenly assumed they were ignoring my request and therefore posted > this instance of "censorship" on Talisman, forwarding copies to each > of the moderators. I was conerned that the moderators might be > using their position to restrict the free-flow of information. Why would you think that? This > turned out not to be the case. > > Two of the moderators responding on Talisman > and what followed was a very fruitful consultation. I discovered that > the moderator in question was new at the job and had been having > 'technical difficulties' which had prevented responses and posting > from being done in a timely fashion. The posting I made was rejected > for reasons of redundancy because the moderators were planning to > post something from Steve Scholl which gave a first hand account of > the events in question. Seeing that, I withdrew the bulk of my post. > Yours is not redundant. It adds weight to the discussion. [clip] > A moderator: > clip > > A moderator: > > > > > > The anger? Mine? I'm not angry. I'm tired. Sorry. Sometimes > > > that doesn't come out clear in my writing. > > ME: > > > I wasn't referring to your anger. I meant those longstanding Baha'is > (snip) > > who threaten to unsubscribe if we keep asking too many uncomfortable > > issues. These are the things that make the threads long and angry. > > And so we should ask them, to keep them happy, living in their vague, idealistic dream world.... > > Then another moderator made this magnificent post that won the hearts > of all the Talismanians: > > "Right. And here is my personal view. IMO, one of the beauties of > the newsgroup is that it DOES force these out into the open where > they can be dealt with. And these threads will remain long and angry > until not only the Baha'is you are talking about but ALL the Baha'is > learn to truly consult. Forget our preconceived notions, really > listen, try to put ourselves in each others shoes, respect our > differing opinions, and look for that spark of truth that > `Abdu'l-Baha talked about that is always out there but hidden behind > everyone's egos and hidden agendas. That sure would make our lives > as moderators a lot easier." > In the moderators' practice, it's more like smother the spark of truth, stamped it out.... > In my opinion this is precisely what SRB should be about. Let > me to also share with you my personal response to the moderators > after our consultation on Talisman was finished: > Vague, meaningless flourish toward reform? > > Dear *** and ****, > > > > (snip)clip > Only by consulting with the > > community at large without recrimination can we hope to resolve some > > of our difficulties. > > > > Thank you for your patience and understanding and please keep us in > > your prayers. > > > > love, Susan > > For the record, let me say I am more than satisfied with the way in > which SRB is being moderated. Do they make mistakes? Now you support the fascists.... What have they promised you? A castle in Bavaria? Of course, and > I've made a few myself :-) But they are not "spiking" post, nor are > the censoring messages in order to stop the free-flow of information > or views, ( with the possible exception of not allowing Remeyites to > express their opinions on issues related to the Covenant.) What they > are attempting to do is prevent personal attacks, intervene > in flamewars, and limit the amount of endless > repitition on a single topic. > Now they're holy saints.... > To my comment: > > > We do *not* have a > > > duty to control the way others choose to present it. > > > I personally don't think such a Baha'i forum could > > > successfully operate under the conditions Fred wants because there > > > already are Baha'i forums such as Talisman II in which the free > > > expression of ideas can be made so long as personal attacks are > > > avoided. > > Frederick wrote: > > > > Talisman is in effect censored too. They have there own pet little > > ideas. The listserv of freedom and liberalism: a fascist bunch of > > academics, IMHO. And I am one who spent fourteen years of his life > > in that increasingly fascist milieu.... > > Talisman II is an unmoderated list serv. It has few rules, but one of > them is to avoid personal attacks. An individual recently > could not live within those guidelines. He was violently offensive > and succeeded in alienating all sides, on a list which justly has the > reputation of being tumultuous. The members of the list were > virtually unanimous in asking that he be unsubscribed. And that's not censorship. THEY'RE still the listserv of light and truth.... "Violently offensive": what shameless, deceitful characterization.... Yes, Fred, I > suppose you have the right to say whatever you wish. *We* have the > right not to be your dumping ground. If anyone wishes to be "dumped > on" and engage in the kind of endless flame wars which Frederick > seems to equate with free speech you are welcome to join his list. I > certainly intend to do nothing to block its formation. > Same old rhetoric, Susan. I don't, incidentally, consider it my list. That's the cute argument of others who permit their own kind of "dumping." Like dumping one position and hoisting another when it suits your moods or motives.... > This is not about censorship, it is about the common courtesy > necessary for any fruitful consultation. > False. It is about censorship, that of the moderators, which you've experienced, and don't have the honesty apparently to confront. Why the backpaddling now? > Susan -- love, Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Thu Apr 10 08:21:08 1997 >From phekda@juno.com Thu Mar 27 11:56:25 1997 Received: (from phekda@juno.com) by x1.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id ONU11657; Thu, 27 Mar 1997 14:55:20 EST To: FG@hotmail.com Subject: New list Message-ID: <19970327.115217.4798.0.Phekda@juno.com> References: <199703271322.FAA29425@shadowfax.reference.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.14 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-3,7,10,14,19,24,26-28 From: phekda@juno.com (William H Reed) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 14:55:20 EST X-Mozilla-Status: 0004 Content-Length: 1509 Dear Fred A private note. I for one would have liked to see the list that you originally proposed come into being. However as circumstances now stand I feel that this effort is hopelessly burdened by the negative atmosphere that has developed. Who is to blame for this in entirely beside the point. Destructive and combative attitudes will only undermine progress towards worthy goals. To evoke confrontation and discontent will not foster the kind of unity that is necessary for such a list to thrive. I suggest to you that the path bearing the most probability of success would be for you to abandon this project, give the situation a rest, and then let someone else give it another shot on fresh ground at some time in the future. If you would like to send me an outline of your original intentions I might be able to assist you when a healthier atmosphere is in place. You may notice from posts that will be appearing on Talisman from me that promoting a real and truly free search for the truth is a goal I share with you. There are of course certain delicacies involved in laying the ground work for such a pursuit. There is a lot of negativity from all sides to overcome. In order for this work to go forward it may be necessary for some parties to take a few risks. Individuals and institutions will not do this if they feel that they are under attack. Please try to see the end in the beginning and look for a smarter strategy than confrontation. Yours: Will From - Sat Feb 22 08:07:37 1997 Received: from relay7.UU.NET (192.48.96.17) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Fri, 21 Feb 1997 16:08:02 -0500 Received: from alterdial.UU.NET by relay7.UU.NET with ESMTP (peer crosschecked as: alterdial.UU.NET [192.48.96.22]) id QQcdxc27113; Fri, 21 Feb 1997 16:13:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from netagw.com by alterdial.UU.NET with ESMTP (peer crosschecked as: Cust14.Max27.Orlando.FL.MS.UU.NET [153.34.176.14]) id QQcdxc19332; Fri, 21 Feb 1997 16:13:14 -0500 (EST) Received: by netagw.com id PAA02101; Fri, 21 Feb 1997 15:45:05 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 15:45:05 -0500 (EST) From: Bill Aten Message-Id: <199702212045.PAA02101@netagw.com> To: @moa.net (Frederick Glaysher) Subject: New UVV Questionnaire (PQ): talk.religion.bahai Reply-To: contact@uvv.org Organization: UseNet Volunteer Votetakers X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 23358 Ref: talk.religion.bahai Our records show that you are the proponent of the referenced RFD. The PQ template that you are required to complete in order to begin the CFV phase has been significantly updated to allow automated scripts to assist us in the creation of the CFV. As a result, this new PQ template is being sent to all current proponents to ensure that everyone has a copy of the most current version. Effective immediately, all PQ submissions using an older version of the PQ template will be returned without processing with a request to obtain and use the latest version. Note: For proponents who have already submitted a PQ that has been accepted, no further action is required. If you wish to resubmit your PQ in the new format, there is a possibility that some votetakers will be more willing to proceed with a proposal that has a PQ in the new format. The "older" PQ's currently on file are still acceptable, however, and a votetaker will be assigned as quickly as possible in any case. The choice is yours. If you wish to submit a "replacement" PQ in the new format, please mail it to me directly at and include a note advising me that this is a duplicate of your previous submission. I will ensure that the PQ is entered in the database with the original date of submission to retain your position in the queue. The current PQ template is dated "February 21, 1997". If the PQ you have on file is older than this version, please replace it with this copy. Your understanding and assistance in this matter is greatly appreciated. -- Bill Aten Member, UseNet Volunteer Votetakers UseNet Volunteer Votetakers WWW page: ===================================================================== ========= UVV Pre-CFV Proponent Questionnaire (PQ) for Newsgroup Proposals **************************************************************** Note: This document is for proponents of newsgroups which have completed the required initial 21-day discussion period and are ready for a vote. If you are looking for information about a new proposal, you need to start with a Request for Discussion (RFD). The Usenet group mentor program can help with this process; see . ****************************************************************************** A CFV for a proposal cannot be advanced until at least 21 days from the date of the first RFD, or ten days from any subsequent RFD, whichever is later. If more than 60 days have passed since the most recent RFD on the proposal, then another RFD is required before it can go to vote. The UVV must have time to process your questionnaire and submit the CFV before the 60 day limit, so do not wait until the last minute to provide your answers. Please -- DO NOT return the completed questionnaire until 5 to 7 days prior to the anticipated CFV submission date. The answers you provide must reflect the discussion generated by your RFD(s). If you send it in too soon, we will simply return it to you and ask you to resubmit it at a later date when the RFD discussions are more or less complete. ****************************************************************************** Last updated: February 21, 1997 The UseNet Volunteer Votetakers (UVV) coordinate all the details of the newsgroup VOTING process, including two postings of the CFV and a final RESULT. Your vote will be given to a neutral member of an experienced cadre of votetakers. In order for this to work, we need the information requested in this questionnaire. All groups must have appeared in an official RFD under the same group names that you are requesting in the CFV. If you are still in the RFD process, please wait before filling out this form so that changes based upon the discussion can be incorporated. Proponents are expected to react to issues raised during the RFD process and incorporate changes based upon this process; if there are substantial changes from the last RFD, then you need to submit another RFD, not this questionnaire. Review Question #1 (in the "before you start" section below) to ensure that you're in compliance with this requirement. About a week before the desired CFV date is ideal timing for submitting this form since it takes at least a few days to assign the vote to a volunteer. If you don't send us this information, it will be assumed that you decided not to go through with the vote (it often happens). We will take the answers you provide in this questionnaire and add the voting instructions, dates, etc. to create the actual CFV, you don't need to do that. All we need from you is an accurate and properly completed questionnaire. Please fill in the requested information and return the entire form in plain text (ie. no MIME, BINHEX, BASE64, PGP, miscellaneous attachments, etc.), 80 columns wide, to . Format Instructions =================== ****************************************************************************** WARNING -- Your completed PQ will be processed into a CFV usable format via automated scripts. If you don't adhere to the specified formatting instructions, your PQ will be rejected with instructions to reformat it and resubmit it. This will result in extra work for you and a further delay in the submission of your CFV. ****************************************************************************** Please provide your response to each of the following questions in the appropriate area immediately following the question. The area designated for your response is delimited by two hash-lines (one marked _BEGIN_ and one marked _END_) and contains a "key" word that indicates the contents the response section. Do not edit or remove either of the hash-lines or the "key" word, and make sure that one (and only one) blank line follows the "key" word and one (and only one) blank line precedes the ending hash-line. If a section is not applicable to your proposal (eg. MODERATOR INFO: for an unmoderated proposal), leave the section in your reply but DO NOT enter any information between the two hash-lines. The specific location for your response is identified by a bracketed comment. Begin your response in the column that contains the opening bracket ([), but delete the bracket and its contents from your response. If you are using your mailer to "reply" to this PQ, make sure that you do not include any "reply prefixes" (eg. "> ") in the area between the two lines of hash marks. DO NOT allow any portion of your response to extend beyond column 78, start a new line instead. One Exception: The "Newsgroup descriptions" section has a different formatting requirement which is explained in that paragraph. The following is an example response: Assuming that you are using your mailer to reply to this PQ, the example response format template might look like the following: > > ##################################################################_BEGIN_### ## > EXAMPLE: [news.group.name_goes_here] > > [enter_your_response_here] > > ####################################################################_END_### ## > Properly completed, your response should look like the following: ##################################################################_BEGIN_### ## EXAMPLE: misc.proposed.group This group is needed to blah, blah, blah, etc. ####################################################################_END_### ## Note how the mailer reply prefixes ("> ") have been deleted, and the responses began in the same column as the beginning bracket ([) of the enclosed comment. Also note that there is exactly one (1) blank line after the "EXAMPLE:" "key" word, and exactly one (1) blank line before ending hash-line. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Pre-CFV Questions ================= 1. Summary of the RFD Discussion. Please confirm that you participated in the required RFD discussion. In order to show compliance with the discussion phase of the newsgroup creation process, please give a brief description of the input that was given to you in response to the RFD, and what changes were made as a result of them. You do not have to implement every suggestion, but you must have answered them. Also indicate what your answers were if any serious suggestions were not implemented. For simple non-controversial proposals, it is acceptable to say, "all input was positive," but only if that's true. NOTE: If, based on the input you've received, it appears that changes to the name(s) (including typos), charter(s), or moderator information of any of the proposed newsgroup(s) are necessary, you must make those changes and issue another RFD and allow discussion of the new RFD before submitting this form. ##################################################################_BEGIN_### ## SUMMARY: [enter_your_response_here] ####################################################################_END_### ## 2. Proposed newsgroup names. List the proposed newsgroup name(s), whether each group is unmoderated or moderated, and any applicable comments. DO NOT put the words "moderated" or "unmoderated" in parentheses. Repeat this once per proposed newsgroup. For example: comp.foo.bar.miscunmoderated (renames comp.foo.bar) comp.foo.bar.announcemoderated ##################################################################_BEGIN_### ## PROPOSED NAMES: [enter_your_response_here] ####################################################################_END_### ## 3. Newsgroup descriptions. Please provide a one-line description of each newsgroup. Avoid phrases like "Discussion of..." since we already know that. Enter the group name, then a tab (you must tab past column 24). You now have until the end of an 80-character line to enter a description for the system newsgroups files (which you must end with a period). If applicable, there is only ONE space between the period (.) and "(Moderated)". The "(Moderated)" phrase does not count in the 80 character limit. Repeat this once per proposed newsgroup. For example: comp.foo.bar.miscThe foo bar system in general. comp.foo.bar.announceAnnouncements about the foo bar system. (Moderated) ( you MUST tab to here ^ [minimum] using a tabstop of 8 ) ##################################################################_BEGIN_### ## NEWSGROUP DESCRIPTIONS: [enter_your_response_here] ####################################################################_END_### ## 4. Proponent/Mentor name and address. List the proponent's name and email address for this vote (usually you). If there is more than one proponent, list them on separate lines in the same format with the "primary" proponent listed first. If you are working with a Group Mentor, please include that person's name and email address also. If you do not have a Mentor, please delete that entire line in your response. Please use the form "name ". For example: Proponent: John Foo Proponent: Dave Smith Mentor: Jane Doe ##################################################################_BEGIN_### ## PROPONENT: Proponent: [enter_your_response_here] Mentor: [enter_your_response_here___DELETE_this_entire_line_if_no_mentor] ####################################################################_END_### ## 5. Newsgroup rationale. A rationale is a short paragraph or two explaining why you think this group creation/reorganization/whatever should pass. This paragraph will be used for the "Rationale" section of the CFV. This is not optional and is quite important in convincing potential voters to cast a positive vote. Multi-group proposals must have a rationale section for each group. This information is usually taken directly from the most recent RFD. Please provide a rationale for each newsgroup. Duplicate this section (ie. everything starting with the beginning hash-line, up to and including the ending hash-line) as necessary for multi-newsgroup proposals. DO NOT add an "END RATIONALE." comment at the end of your rationale. ##################################################################_BEGIN_### ## RATIONALE: [news.group.name_goes_here] [enter_your_response_here] ####################################################################_END_### ## 6. Newsgroup charter. What is/are the charter(s) for the newsgroup(s)? This includes the name of the newsgroup(s), what is acceptable and unacceptable on the newsgroup(s), and what exactly is going on if this is a reorganization. This information can usually be taken directly from the most recent RFD. If the information has changed substantially since the last RFD, then a new RFD should be prepared instead of proceeding with a CFV. A new RFD is mandatory if any changes to a newsgroup name are made (no matter how minor). Please provide a charter for each newsgroup. Duplicate this section (ie. everything starting with the beginning hash-line, up to and including the ending hash-line) as necessary for multi-newsgroup proposals. DO NOT add an "END CHARTER." comment at the end of your charter. ##################################################################_BEGIN_### ## CHARTER: [news.group.name_goes_here] [enter_your_response_here] ####################################################################_END_### ## 7. Moderator information. If any of the groups are moderated, give the names of their moderators, their mail addresses, and the addresses they will be using to moderate the group. If there is more than one moderator, then EACH moderator's name and address info line must begin with the "Moderator:" header. Note1: You MUST use quotes (") if there is a period (.) in the moderator's listed name and you elect to use the 1st address format listed in the example below. Note2: DO NOT enclose the contact or submission addresses in brackets (<>). Note3: Failure to provide both "contact" and "submission" addresses will cause your PQ submission to be rejected. For example: Moderator: "R. Frobs" <-- quotes required Moderator: jdoe@host.domain (J. Doe) <-- do not use quotes Administrative contact address: chess-request@host.domain Article submission address: chess@host.domain Please provide the moderator info for every moderated newsgroup. Duplicate this section (ie. everything starting with the beginning hash-line, up to and including the ending hash-line) as necessary for multi-newsgroup proposals. DO NOT add an "END MODERATOR INFO." comment at the end of your moderator info. ##################################################################_BEGIN_### ## MODERATOR INFO: [news.group.name_goes_here] Moderator: [enter_your_response_here___ADD_additional_entries_if_required] Administrative contact address: [enter_your_response_here] Article submission address: [enter_your_response_here] ####################################################################_END_### ## 8. Newsgroups gatewayed to mailing lists. If any groups are going to be gatewayed with a mailing list, give the name and address of the mailing list. Duplicate this section (ie. everything starting with the beginning hash-line, up to and including the ending hash-line) as necessary for multi-newsgroup proposals. ##################################################################_BEGIN_### ## GATEWAYS: [news.group.name_goes_here] Gateway mailing list name: [enter_your_response_here] Submission address: [enter_your_response_here] Request address: [enter_your_response_here_(this_entry_line_is_optional)] ####################################################################_END_### ## 9. CFV newsgroup distribution. These are usually the same newsgroups where you posted the RFD because you don't want the vote to come as a surprise to any unsuspecting newsgroups. There needs to be a good reason to add newsgroups to the CFV distribution. NOTE: The CFV will normally only be posted to the Big 8 (comp, humanities, misc, news, rec, sci, soc, talk) and ALT newsgroups. Other requested newsgroup hierarchies may be deleted by the news.announce.newsgroup moderator before the CFV is actually posted. IMPORTANT! CFVs are always crossposted to news.announce.newgroups and news.groups. If these, plus the Newsgroups: header name, your other newsgroups, and the commas (",") that separate each newsgroup name, total more than 200 characters, there are several Usenet sites which will not be able to handle the CFV and will discard it. Even though 200 characters are available, shorter newsgroup lists and less crossposting are generally a good idea. We will NOT accept a Newsgroups: header that exceeds 200 characters because the "news.announce.newgroups" moderator's posting scripts will simply reject it. When you are doing your math to determine the length of the Newsgroups: header line, don't forget that the header name and the commas that separate the newsgroup names, must be counted as part of the allowed 200 characters. Since "Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups," is 48 characters in length, that leaves you with 152 characters for your desired newsgroup names and the required separating commas. When you enter your newsgroups below, please enter the newsgroups in alphabetical order, only put one newsgroup on each line, and use as many lines as necessary (without exceeding the max character count). When you count the characters in your entry, don't include any spaces after the commas. When we reformat your submission, the newsgroup names will be joined into one long header line with no spaces after the commas. ##################################################################_BEGIN_### ## NEWSGROUPS: Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups, [enter_your_1st_newsgroup_here], [enter_your_next_newsgroup_here], [enter_your_next_newsgroup_here], [enter_your_last_newsgroup_here] ####################################################################_END_### ## 10. New crosspostings. There needs to be a good reason for adding newsgroups to the CFV distribution. Which, if any, newsgroups listed in the previous response were not crossposted to in the RFD(s) (if none, say "none")?. Please provide a good reason for adding each newsgroup that you list. Duplicate this section (ie. everything starting with the beginning hash-line, up to and including the ending hash-line) as necessary for multiple entries. ##################################################################_BEGIN_### ## NEW CROSSPOSTS: New Newsgroup: [enter_your_response_here] Reason: [enter_your_response_here] ####################################################################_END_### ## 11. Moderated crossposted newsgroups. In addition to "news.announce.newgroups", which (if any) of the newsgroups in your requested distribution listing are moderated (if none, say "none")?. If more than one newsgroup is moderated, list each one on a separate line. ##################################################################_BEGIN_### ## MODERATED NEWSGROUPS: [enter_your_response_here] ####################################################################_END_### ## 12. Pointer messages to newsgroups. If you plan to post "pointers" to the CFV in additional newsgroups, list the intended newsgroups here (if none, say "none"). If you plan to post "pointers" to more than one newsgroup, list each one on a separate line. ##################################################################_BEGIN_### ## POINTER MESSAGES: [enter_your_response_here] ####################################################################_END_### ## 13. CFV submission to mailing lists. Would you like us to send the CFV to any mailing lists? Although allowed, the use of mailing lists is strongly discouraged due to the numerous voting problems that continually arise during the CFVs that use them. If you feel that mailing lists are essential, please keep the number of lists requested to an absolute minimum. More lists mean more potential problems, and it becomes more difficult to find a volunteer votetaker to run your proposal. These mailing lists have to be named up front, so please give their names and submission addresses so that this information can be included in the CFV. You may wish to include the request address as well as the posting address, so anyone who is interested and wants to join won't send messages to the mailing list itself. IMPORTANT! For each mailing list you name, we need to know whether or not the list honors Reply-To: headers in messages sent to it, and whether or not non-members can directly post messages to the list. CFVs can only be posted to mailing lists that allow the votetaker to directly post messages, so if the list is closed to non-members, the actual CFV will not be posted to that list (unless the votetaker happens to also be a member of the closed list). For closed lists, you have the option of posting a "pointer" message to the list to advise the members that a CFV is in progress and to tell them where they can find a copy of the actual CFV. The intent to use "pointer" messages in mailing lists does not need to be listed in the CFV. Please provide the following information and answer the questions for each mailing list you name. The CFV will not be sent to any mailing lists missing this information, or to closed lists (unless the votetaker happens to be a member). Duplicate this section (ie. everything starting with the beginning hash-line, up to and including the ending hash-line) as necessary if you're requesting more than one mailing list submission. ##################################################################_BEGIN_### ## MAILING LISTS: Mailing list name: [enter_your_response_here] Submission address: [enter_your_response_here] Request address (optional): [enter_your_response_here] List honors Reply-To: headers (yes/no)?: [enter_yes_or_no_response_here] List allows non-members to post messages (yes/no)?: [enter_yes_or_no_here] ####################################################################_END_### ## Do not modify or delete this final entry. ##################################################################_BEGIN_### ## PQ Date Stamp: 970221 ####################################################################_END_### ## Thanks, UVV Coordinators ===================================================================== ========= From - Wed Jan 29 06:28:25 1997 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.50) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 06:20:29 -0500 Message-ID: <32EF343C.28ED@moa.net> Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 06:27:56 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: jrcole@umich.edu CC: @MOA.net Subject: News NNTP server errors Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 536 My server is failing to pass messages to me that I'm told are appearing on news.groups and soc.religion.bahai regarding the RFD. I don't mean to bother you, I realize you have other things to attend to, but if you might easily confirm or refute that for me I'd appreciate it. While I can post to news.groups, I can only read messages sent there by me. Are there any from other people there? The technical people at Oakland University are trying to figure it out. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Wed Jan 29 06:27:56 1997 BCC: @MOA.net Message-ID: <32EF343C.28ED@moa.net> Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 06:27:56 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: jrcole@umich.edu CC: @MOA.net Subject: News NNTP server errors Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 538 My server is failing to pass messages to me that I'm told are appearing on news.groups and soc.religion.bahai regarding the RFD. I don't mean to bother you, I realize you have other things to attend to, but if you might easily confirm or refute that for me I'd appreciate it. While I can post to news.groups, I can only read messages sent there by me. Are there any from other people there? The technical people at Oakland University are trying to figure it out. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Sun Jan 26 09:36:58 1997 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.34) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Sun, 26 Jan 1997 09:28:36 -0500 Message-ID: <32EB6BD0.2B3B@moa.net> Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 09:36:00 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: jeff@moa.net Subject: Newsgroup error messages Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 1000 I keep getting an error message when I try to post to newsgroups on MOA.net: A News (NNTP) error occurred: posting failed, sorry I'm working with Christopher Stone at the group-mentors for USEnet at Princeton trying to get a RFD for a new newsgroup discussed and voted on. This problem is preventing me from properly responding to the discussion and half the time has run out for the 30 day discussion period. Chris Stone has emailed me asking why I'm not joining in all the discussion in news.groups, but when I use the news browser to download from news.groups, I get only old messages, my own, and a few new ones, not the responses he says should be there. I thought the problem might have been Netscape 2.02, so I upgraded on Saturday to Netscape Gold but it has not made any difference. That seems to confirm it's a server problem or something. I'm using Windows 95 too. Urgently, I ask for your suggestions? Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Sun Jan 26 17:48:49 1997 Received: from oak.oakland.edu (141.210.10.117) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Sun, 26 Jan 1997 10:12:05 -0500 Received: from oak.oakland.edu (oak.oakland.edu [198.111.3.158]) by oak.oakland.edu (8.8.4/8.7.4-jdm) with SMTP id KAA27165 for <@moa.net>; Sun, 26 Jan 1997 10:17:36 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 10:17:35 -0500 (EST) From: Jeff Marraccini To: Frederick Glaysher <@moa.net> Subject: Re: Newsgroup error messages In-Reply-To: <32EB6BD0.2B3B@moa.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Content-Length: 1565 A fix is in progress by the MOAnet core team. I am not involved in its implementation, but I'll ask if I can help. Thanks, Jeff Jeff Marraccini jeff@oak.oakland.edu OCIS Network & Integration Services 810/981-0568 Oakland University "The Computer is your Friend." -- Paranoia Jeff Marraccini's Home Page On Sun, 26 Jan 1997, Frederick Glaysher wrote: > I keep getting an error message when I try to post to newsgroups on > MOA.net: > > A News (NNTP) error occurred: posting failed, sorry > > I'm working with Christopher Stone at the group-mentors for USEnet > at Princeton trying to get a RFD for a new newsgroup discussed and > voted on. This problem is preventing me from properly responding > to the discussion and half the time has run out for the 30 day > discussion period. Chris Stone has emailed me asking why I'm not > joining in all the discussion in news.groups, but when I use the > news browser to download from news.groups, I get only old messages, > my own, and a few new ones, not the responses he says should be > there. > > I thought the problem might have been Netscape 2.02, so I upgraded on > Saturday to Netscape Gold but it has not made any difference. That > seems to confirm it's a server problem or something. I'm using Windows > 95 too. > > Urgently, I ask for your suggestions? > > Frederick Glaysher > Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > From - Sun Jan 26 17:56:10 1997 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.44) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Sun, 26 Jan 1997 17:46:43 -0500 Message-ID: <32EBE08E.362@moa.net> Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 17:54:06 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jeff Marraccini Subject: Re: Newsgroup error messages References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Content-Length: 1839 Jeff, I'm really grateful for whatever you can do to fix the problem. It's been really frustrating to put together a RFD not be able to join in the discussion! Thanks. Jeff Marraccini wrote: > > A fix is in progress by the MOAnet core team. I am not involved in its > implementation, but I'll ask if I can help. > > Thanks, > > Jeff > > Jeff Marraccini jeff@oak.oakland.edu > OCIS Network & Integration Services 810/981-0568 > Oakland University "The Computer is your Friend." -- Paranoia > Jeff Marraccini's Home Page > > On Sun, 26 Jan 1997, Frederick Glaysher wrote: > > > I keep getting an error message when I try to post to newsgroups on > > MOA.net: > > > > A News (NNTP) error occurred: posting failed, sorry > > > > I'm working with Christopher Stone at the group-mentors for USEnet > > at Princeton trying to get a RFD for a new newsgroup discussed and > > voted on. This problem is preventing me from properly responding > > to the discussion and half the time has run out for the 30 day > > discussion period. Chris Stone has emailed me asking why I'm not > > joining in all the discussion in news.groups, but when I use the > > news browser to download from news.groups, I get only old messages, > > my own, and a few new ones, not the responses he says should be > > there. > > > > I thought the problem might have been Netscape 2.02, so I upgraded on > > Saturday to Netscape Gold but it has not made any difference. That > > seems to confirm it's a server problem or something. I'm using Windows > > 95 too. > > > > Urgently, I ask for your suggestions? > > > > Frederick Glaysher > > Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > > From - Tue Jan 28 16:22:13 1997 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.43) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 06:15:58 -0500 Message-ID: <32EDE1AA.2B37@moa.net> Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 06:23:22 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jeff Marraccini Subject: Re: Newsgroup error messages References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Content-Length: 1999 I just tried to respond to a message on a newsgroup and got the same error message this morning. I'm trying to think if there's something else I should mention about it.... Could I have the email address of the MOAnet core team? Maybe if I communicate directly with them I might be able to help them figure out the problem. Jeff Marraccini wrote: > > A fix is in progress by the MOAnet core team. I am not involved in its > implementation, but I'll ask if I can help. > > Thanks, > > Jeff > > Jeff Marraccini jeff@oak.oakland.edu > OCIS Network & Integration Services 810/981-0568 > Oakland University "The Computer is your Friend." -- Paranoia > Jeff Marraccini's Home Page > > On Sun, 26 Jan 1997, Frederick Glaysher wrote: > > > I keep getting an error message when I try to post to newsgroups on > > MOA.net: > > > > A News (NNTP) error occurred: posting failed, sorry > > > > I'm working with Christopher Stone at the group-mentors for USEnet > > at Princeton trying to get a RFD for a new newsgroup discussed and > > voted on. This problem is preventing me from properly responding > > to the discussion and half the time has run out for the 30 day > > discussion period. Chris Stone has emailed me asking why I'm not > > joining in all the discussion in news.groups, but when I use the > > news browser to download from news.groups, I get only old messages, > > my own, and a few new ones, not the responses he says should be > > there. > > > > I thought the problem might have been Netscape 2.02, so I upgraded on > > Saturday to Netscape Gold but it has not made any difference. That > > seems to confirm it's a server problem or something. I'm using Windows > > 95 too. > > > > Urgently, I ask for your suggestions? > > > > Frederick Glaysher > > Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > > From - Tue Jan 28 16:22:18 1997 Received: from oak.oakland.edu (141.210.10.117) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 09:22:25 -0500 Received: from oak.oakland.edu (oak.oakland.edu [198.111.3.158]) by oak.oakland.edu (8.8.4/8.7.4-jdm) with SMTP id JAA20435 for <@moa.net>; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 09:27:57 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 09:27:56 -0500 (EST) From: Jeff Marraccini To: Frederick Glaysher <@moa.net> Subject: Re: Newsgroup error messages In-Reply-To: <32EDE1AA.2B37@moa.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Content-Length: 1102 Frederick, The Usenet server problem we were having earlier has been fixed. Now, it appears we're dealing with an access problem, as many people have been able to get their articles out via the Usenet in the past 24 hours. As I write this, at only 9:30 AM, there have been more than a dozen articles posted through zeus.moa.net. Could you tell me how you are reaching the MOAnet? Are you dialing into one of our dialup pools? What phone number? What news program are you using? In the interim, you can use the nnpost program on zeus.moa.net to get your articles out until this can be cleared up. There's no reason to further delay your responses. You can reach all of the members of the MOAnet core team by emailing moanet@moa.net. Thanks, Jeff Jeff Marraccini jeff@oak.oakland.edu OCIS Network & Integration Services 810/981-0568 Oakland University "The Computer is your Friend." -- Paranoia Jeff Marraccini's Home Page From - Tue Jan 28 16:40:59 1997 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.42) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 16:33:10 -0500 Message-ID: <32EE7250.440@moa.net> Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 16:40:33 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jeff Marraccini Subject: Re: Newsgroup error messages References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Content-Length: 1689 Jeff Marraccini wrote: > > Could you tell me how you are reaching the MOAnet? Are you dialing into > one of our dialup pools? What phone number? What news program are you > using? > My wife's a middle school teacher in Rochester, and I'm dialing in from home on 370-0039. I don't know if it's a pool. I use Netscape Gold for email and news. We have to use atlas.moa.net for email and zeus.moa.net for news. Could that be part of the problem? I've tried to use atlas and zeus for both news and email but it doesn't seem to work. > In the interim, you can use the nnpost program on zeus.moa.net to get your > articles out until this can be cleared up. There's no reason to further > delay your responses. > Jeff, I don't know what nnpost is. Could you explain how to hook in to it? The NNTP server I have under options on Netscape is zeus. Does that matter? Do I just stick in nnpost there? > You can reach all of the members of the MOAnet core team by emailing > moanet@moa.net. > >One other thing: which Usenet group are you trying to post to? news.announce.newgroups, news.groups, soc.religion.bahai, soc.culture.iranian, soc.culture.israel, soc.rights.human, talk.religion.misc, talk.religion.buddhism, soc.atheism, and the rest of the soc.religion hierarchy. The two news ones and soc.religion.bahai are the consistently the most trouble but I can't be sure because I don't know if there are messages being posted on them without my seeing them. My group-mentor and someone else has confirmed the appearance of messages I've never seen only for those three. Again, I'm grateful for anything you can do to help! From - Tue Jan 28 16:22:19 1997 Received: from oak.oakland.edu (141.210.10.117) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 09:44:42 -0500 Received: from oak.oakland.edu (oak.oakland.edu [198.111.3.158]) by oak.oakland.edu (8.8.4/8.7.4-jdm) with SMTP id JAA09150 for <@moa.net>; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 09:50:14 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 09:50:14 -0500 (EST) From: Jeff Marraccini To: Frederick Glaysher <@moa.net> Subject: Re: Newsgroup error messages In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Content-Length: 395 One other thing: which Usenet group are you trying to post to? Jeff Jeff Marraccini jeff@oak.oakland.edu OCIS Network & Integration Services 810/981-0568 Oakland University "The Computer is your Friend." -- Paranoia Jeff Marraccini's Home Page From - Sat Feb 01 13:06:08 1997 Received: from oak.oakland.edu (141.210.10.117) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 08:22:05 -0500 Received: from oak.oakland.edu (oak.oakland.edu [198.111.3.158]) by oak.oakland.edu (8.8.5/8.7.4-jdm) with SMTP id IAA13984; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 08:27:38 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 08:27:38 -0500 (EST) From: Jeff Marraccini To: Frederick Glaysher <@moa.net> cc: moanet@moa.net Subject: Re: Newsgroup error messages: NNTP In-Reply-To: <32F1E241.AC9@moa.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Content-Length: 1317 It sounds like your system is only accepting the first few heirarchies. We show soc.* having 224 groups in our copy of Netscape Gold 3.0 when dialed into 370-0039. You might want to erase the files in the News directory under your Netscape program directory to see if this clears up. If not, you'd best switch programs (a good one is Free Agent available at https://www.forteinc.com/) or contact Netscape support, as you are the only person unable to reach these heirarchies on the MOAnet. Jeff Jeff Marraccini jeff@oak.oakland.edu OCIS Network & Integration Services 810/981-0568 Oakland University "The Computer is your Friend." -- Paranoia Jeff Marraccini's Home Page On Fri, 31 Jan 1997, Frederick Glaysher wrote: > I'm still getting that News NNTP error. Under newsgroups when I click > Show All Newsgroups I only get > > bionet.* > bit.* > biz.* > can.schoolnet > clari.* > > Does that anything? I used to receive a dozen or so hierarchies. > Since the soc.* hierarchy is not listed here, I'm wondering it that's > related to the posting trouble I'm having. > > -- > Frederick Glaysher > Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > From - Sat Feb 01 17:28:12 1997 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.54) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Sat, 01 Feb 1997 17:20:12 -0500 Message-ID: <32F3C357.345E@moa.net> Date: Sat, 01 Feb 1997 17:27:35 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jeff Marraccini Subject: Re: Newsgroup error messages: NNTP References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Content-Length: 1264 Jeff Marraccini wrote: > > It sounds like your system is only accepting the first few heirarchies. > We show soc.* having 224 groups in our copy of Netscape Gold 3.0 when > dialed into 370-0039. > > You might want to erase the files in the News directory under your > Netscape program directory to see if this clears up. Thanks, Jeff, it worked! I deleted the files and then reloaded and the entire hierarchies were pulled in, including all of soc.* If not, you'd best > switch programs (a good one is Free Agent available at > https://www.forteinc.com/) or contact Netscape support, as you are the only > person unable to reach these heirarchies on the MOAnet. > I'm still experiencing the posting news error: A News (NNTP) error has occurred; posting failed, sorry? That includes to newsgroups in the soc.* hierarchy, that's now at least THERE. Any ideas? I can't read in news.groups any UVV: Daily RFD, PQ, and CFV status report. Bill Aten (bill@netagw.com), a usenet volunteer, tells me they should be there. I'm supposed to fill out a questionnaire for the CFV soon. > > Jeff Marraccini jeff@oak.oakland.edu -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Sun Feb 09 09:55:30 1997 BCC: @MOA.net Message-ID: <32FDE562.619@moa.net> Date: Sun, 09 Feb 1997 09:55:30 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: SManeck@berry.edu Subject: Newsgroups Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 134 Incidentally, www.dejanews.com will let you read any newsgroups you want. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Sat Jan 25 12:34:01 1997 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.41) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Sat, 25 Jan 1997 11:25:11 -0500 Message-ID: <32EA35A3.1877@moa.net> Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 11:32:35 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: moanet@moa.net Subject: Newsgroups and Posting Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 526 I've just got a copy of Netscape Gold, and I can't find all the newsgroups I used to subscribe to, especially the entire hierarchy of soc.* newsgroups. Any suggestions? Is it your problem or mine? The reason I bought Netscape Gold was I've often gotten an error message when posting, or trying post, to a newsgroup: A News (NNTP) error occurred: Posting failed, sorry Usually, it posts the message anyway, but not always. It's still happening! What's the problem? Pam Glaysher @moa.net From - Mon Feb 10 07:21:04 1997 BCC: @MOA.net Message-ID: <32FF12B0.37F8@moa.net> Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 07:21:04 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: jeff@oak.oakland.edu CC: moanet@moa.net Subject: NNTP errors Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 709 Jeff, I'm still experiencing the same problem: A News (NNTP) error occurred; posting failed, sorry I'm getting it consistently every time I try to post to soc.religion.bahai; I consistently seem to be able to post to news.groups and then read them as posted messages there. Others are telling me still, though, they can't read my posted messages on news.group, which apparently aren't being passed by the server or something. Then, when others post to me on news.groups, those messages are appearing on listing for news.groups. These are two most important newsgroups to me at the moment. Any other possibilities for a fix? -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Thu Apr 10 08:14:38 1997 >From trbutl@most.fw.hac.com Mon Mar 17 05:30:00 1997 Received: by most.fw.hac.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA26283; Mon, 17 Mar 97 08:29:02 EST Received: from most.fw.hac.com(151.168.254.82) by gw1.hughes-defense-comm.com via smap (3.2) id xma026261; Mon, 17 Mar 97 08:28:38 -0500 Received: by most (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA05580; Mon, 17 Mar 97 08:28:36 EST Received: from ss2.fw.hac.com(151.168.145.200) by most via smap (V1.5khhunt) id sma005572; Mon Mar 17 08:28:25 1997 Received: from [151.168.146.14] (mac-14) by ss2.uiv (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA19906; Mon, 17 Mar 97 08:28:02 EST X-Sender: trbutl@pophost Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199703151155.DAA23383@shadowfax.reference.com> References: <857854775.23137@dejanews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 08:27:58 -0500 To: FG@hotmail.com From: "Thomas R. Butler [Tom] (219) 429-5957" Subject: Re: NO vote campaign talk.religion.bahai X-Mozilla-Status: 0014 Content-Length: 4873 Fred, I think that you have every right to attempt to set up talk.religion.bahai. I wish you the very best in the endeavor. The campaign to defeat this by another Baha'i is contrary to the Bahai writings. It is an unfortunate incident and one from which the Baha'i community will hopefully learn and grow. Most humbly submitted and with Best Regards, Tom Butler >Since there's been a campaign to defeat talk.religion.bahai, >I thought you might be interested in seeing the evidence. >This appeal for NO votes was apparently posted recently to the >Bahai woman's discussion listserv. > > >Mark Towfiq (towfiq@justice.medford.ma.us) wrote: > > >Subject: RE: Pointer: CFV talk.religion.bahai > > >Dear friends, a situation which has been developing over the past few > >months has finally come to a head. > > > >As many of you may already know, the soc.religion.bahai newsgroup > >was created in the Holy Year (1992) to serve as a forum for the > >Friends to discuss the Faith on USENET and a non-threatening > >place for people investigating the Baha'i Faith to ask questions > >and receive answers. As part of its creation, we decided that > >it should be moderated, and that the Charter should spell out > >very clearly what were unacceptable types of postings. Among > >such unacceptable postings were deemed personal insults and > >attacks on individuals and religious institutions. > >Later last year, the Charter was made more explicit to exclude > >postings which undermine the Covenant. The newsgroup has been > >moderated by a set of Baha'is since its inception who, in my > >opinion, have applied the Charter and Baha'i principles to a > >high degree of fairness, and have maintained a rather good tone > >and environment. We have received numerous compliments about > >this over the years. > > > >Recently, an individual, Frederick Glaysher (I do not know if > >he is a Baha'i or not), > > I have been a member of the Bahai Faith for over 20 years. > > >has accused the moderators of > >soc.religion.bahai of "censorship", claiming that they will not > >allow his point of view to be posted there. > > I am not the only person to accuse, quitely accurately, the > "moderators" of censorship. Several people have. Read the > discussion on news.groups > > >As a result, he > >has asked for the creation of a new, unmoderated forum, called > >talk.religion.bahai. The postings which Mr. Glaysher complains > >about were all rejected on the basis of tone; he wanted to > >post open insults and sarcasm, > > Where in the Bahai Writings does it state, THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT > SARCASM! An incisive literary tool for dealing with tyrants > in all ages of human history.... Despots have always feared > it.... > > >and the moderators > >asked him to re-phrase his postings. > > "Self-censor" would be more like it.... > > >He refused, and claimed > >he was being censored, and embarked upon this campaign to > >create a new newsgroup. > > I would call it a campaign for human freedom of religious > conscience and dignity against fanatics and extremists in > the Bahai Faith like Mark Towfiq.... > > >Dear Friends, if this new newsgroup is created, in my opinion > >it will cause great confusion; there will now be two, almost > >identical fora to discuss the Faith, but one of them will allow > >any sorts of postings, including postings from Covenant-breakers. > >Besides this fact, such a newsgroup is not necessary, as there > >exist plenty of open forums on USENET (such as > >talk.relgion.misc) where Mr. Glaysher may post his opinions > >"freely". > > The points of the foregoing paragraph have been discussed fully > over the past weeks. See news.groups.... > > > > >HOW TO VOTE NO: Send email to: jjd@primenet.com > > > >With the only text of the message being: > > > > I vote NO on talk.religion.bahai > > > > It's widely considered on USEnet unethical to vote NO when > 100 or more people wish to form a newsgroup on any subject. > To vote NO for ideological reasons, here clearly religious > reasons, would be a disgrace to the Bahai Faith. Are you, > Mr. Towfiq, trying to prove to the world the Bahai Faith is > full of ignorant fanatics? You're doing a good job of it. > > >I would be happy to provide further information or > >answer any questions about this matter. > > > >Regards, > >Mark Towfiq > > > > > > Frederick Glaysher > Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > > > >-- > >Posted using Reference.COM https://www.reference.com >Browse, Search and Post Usenet and Mailing list Archive and Catalog. > >InReference, Inc. accepts no responsibility for the content of this posting. From - Wed Apr 09 08:19:56 1997 >From trbutl@most.fw.hac.com Mon Mar 17 05:30:00 1997 Received: by most.fw.hac.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA26283; Mon, 17 Mar 97 08:29:02 EST Received: from most.fw.hac.com(151.168.254.82) by gw1.hughes-defense-comm.com via smap (3.2) id xma026261; Mon, 17 Mar 97 08:28:38 -0500 Received: by most (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA05580; Mon, 17 Mar 97 08:28:36 EST Received: from ss2.fw.hac.com(151.168.145.200) by most via smap (V1.5khhunt) id sma005572; Mon Mar 17 08:28:25 1997 Received: from [151.168.146.14] (mac-14) by ss2.uiv (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA19906; Mon, 17 Mar 97 08:28:02 EST X-Sender: trbutl@pophost Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199703151155.DAA23383@shadowfax.reference.com> References: <857854775.23137@dejanews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 08:27:58 -0500 To: FG@hotmail.com From: "Thomas R. Butler [Tom] (219) 429-5957" Subject: Re: NO vote campaign talk.religion.bahai X-Mozilla-Status: 0014 Content-Length: 4873 Fred, I think that you have every right to attempt to set up talk.religion.bahai. I wish you the very best in the endeavor. The campaign to defeat this by another Baha'i is contrary to the Bahai writings. It is an unfortunate incident and one from which the Baha'i community will hopefully learn and grow. Most humbly submitted and with Best Regards, Tom Butler >Since there's been a campaign to defeat talk.religion.bahai, >I thought you might be interested in seeing the evidence. >This appeal for NO votes was apparently posted recently to the >Bahai woman's discussion listserv. > > >Mark Towfiq (towfiq@justice.medford.ma.us) wrote: > > >Subject: RE: Pointer: CFV talk.religion.bahai > > >Dear friends, a situation which has been developing over the past few > >months has finally come to a head. > > > >As many of you may already know, the soc.religion.bahai newsgroup > >was created in the Holy Year (1992) to serve as a forum for the > >Friends to discuss the Faith on USENET and a non-threatening > >place for people investigating the Baha'i Faith to ask questions > >and receive answers. As part of its creation, we decided that > >it should be moderated, and that the Charter should spell out > >very clearly what were unacceptable types of postings. Among > >such unacceptable postings were deemed personal insults and > >attacks on individuals and religious institutions. > >Later last year, the Charter was made more explicit to exclude > >postings which undermine the Covenant. The newsgroup has been > >moderated by a set of Baha'is since its inception who, in my > >opinion, have applied the Charter and Baha'i principles to a > >high degree of fairness, and have maintained a rather good tone > >and environment. We have received numerous compliments about > >this over the years. > > > >Recently, an individual, Frederick Glaysher (I do not know if > >he is a Baha'i or not), > > I have been a member of the Bahai Faith for over 20 years. > > >has accused the moderators of > >soc.religion.bahai of "censorship", claiming that they will not > >allow his point of view to be posted there. > > I am not the only person to accuse, quitely accurately, the > "moderators" of censorship. Several people have. Read the > discussion on news.groups > > >As a result, he > >has asked for the creation of a new, unmoderated forum, called > >talk.religion.bahai. The postings which Mr. Glaysher complains > >about were all rejected on the basis of tone; he wanted to > >post open insults and sarcasm, > > Where in the Bahai Writings does it state, THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT > SARCASM! An incisive literary tool for dealing with tyrants > in all ages of human history.... Despots have always feared > it.... > > >and the moderators > >asked him to re-phrase his postings. > > "Self-censor" would be more like it.... > > >He refused, and claimed > >he was being censored, and embarked upon this campaign to > >create a new newsgroup. > > I would call it a campaign for human freedom of religious > conscience and dignity against fanatics and extremists in > the Bahai Faith like Mark Towfiq.... > > >Dear Friends, if this new newsgroup is created, in my opinion > >it will cause great confusion; there will now be two, almost > >identical fora to discuss the Faith, but one of them will allow > >any sorts of postings, including postings from Covenant-breakers. > >Besides this fact, such a newsgroup is not necessary, as there > >exist plenty of open forums on USENET (such as > >talk.relgion.misc) where Mr. Glaysher may post his opinions > >"freely". > > The points of the foregoing paragraph have been discussed fully > over the past weeks. See news.groups.... > > > > >HOW TO VOTE NO: Send email to: jjd@primenet.com > > > >With the only text of the message being: > > > > I vote NO on talk.religion.bahai > > > > It's widely considered on USEnet unethical to vote NO when > 100 or more people wish to form a newsgroup on any subject. > To vote NO for ideological reasons, here clearly religious > reasons, would be a disgrace to the Bahai Faith. Are you, > Mr. Towfiq, trying to prove to the world the Bahai Faith is > full of ignorant fanatics? You're doing a good job of it. > > >I would be happy to provide further information or > >answer any questions about this matter. > > > >Regards, > >Mark Towfiq > > > > > > Frederick Glaysher > Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > > > >-- > >Posted using Reference.COM https://www.reference.com >Browse, Search and Post Usenet and Mailing list Archive and Catalog. > >InReference, Inc. accepts no responsibility for the content of this posting. From - Wed Apr 09 08:20:00 1997 >From smsmith@cybertrails.com Mon Mar 17 11:25:51 1997 Received: from smsmith ([205.180.50.69]) by cliff.cybertrails.com (Netscape Mail Server v2.02) with ESMTP id AAA191; Mon, 17 Mar 1997 12:25:48 -0700 From: smsmith@cybertrails.com (S. Michele Smith) To: Cc: Subject: Re: NO vote campaign talk.religion.bahai Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 12:27:10 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <19970317192547187.AAA191@smsmith> X-Mozilla-Status: 0014 Content-Length: 2961 Mr. Glaysher, Thank you for your submission to soc.religion.bahai. I am returning it to you unposted as the moderators of srb are no longer posting submissions related to the issues you mention. Please do not submit to srb any further postings regarding the trb or censorship. These are all being referred to newsgroups. Thank you. S. Michele Smith co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai srb-mods@bcca.org ---------- From: FG@hotmail.com To: Cc: talisman@umich.edu; irfan@umich.edu; bahai-faith@bcca.org Subject: Re: NO vote campaign talk.religion.bahai Date: Monday, March 17, 1997 4:39 AM On Mon, 17 Mar 1997 06:16:32 GMT, maitreya@worldnet.att.net (Joseph M. Emmanuel) wrote: > On Sun, 16 Mar 1997 16:40:48 -0500, Roger Reini wrote: > > >Joseph M. Emmanuel wrote: > > > >> I have to agree with you. The censorship is definitely there, in Baha'i > >> newsgroups. I imagine it is true in all through their organization! > >> I sent my yes vote for the new newsgroups to the address you had in your > >> message. > >> > > > >IMHO, I believe that the reason your posts were being rejected was that > >they were not within the charter of the newsgroup. The discussions may > >have started within the charter, but it ended up outside the scope of > >the newsgroup (a not-uncommon event). > > > >Would one consider posts rejected because they're off-topic > >"censorship"? In the context of the discussion here, I would not. > > > >Roger (rreini@wwnet.com) > > Then their charter is too restrictive. It is set up to censure. We need > another news group which is less restrictive. Let them stay in their > little world. Let others be able to discuss this religion, which claim to > be open, for what it really is! "It is set up to censure": I believe here you've hit the nail on head, as they say.... Read my Response to a Fanatic on news.groups for an indication of where Mr. Reini is coming from, incidentally.... Many people have now stated this openly, while others have emailed me in fear, apparently, of some sort of retaliation, real or imagined, on the part of the moderators of soc.religion.bahai, or perhaps someone in the Bahai administration.... I think all this FEAR itself makes an overwhelming case that there really ought to be a forum for discussion available on the Bahai Faith that no one can manipulate and control: talk.religion.bahai > > > -Joseph (maitreya@maitreya.org) > One God, One World, One Humanity > Unity Of All Under One God > https://www.maitreya.org Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA -- Posted using Reference.COM https://www.reference.com Browse, Search and Post Usenet and Mailing list Archive and Catalog. InReference, Inc. accepts no responsibility for the content of this posting. From - Thu Apr 10 08:14:43 1997 >From smsmith@cybertrails.com Mon Mar 17 11:25:51 1997 Received: from smsmith ([205.180.50.69]) by cliff.cybertrails.com (Netscape Mail Server v2.02) with ESMTP id AAA191; Mon, 17 Mar 1997 12:25:48 -0700 From: smsmith@cybertrails.com (S. Michele Smith) To: Cc: Subject: Re: NO vote campaign talk.religion.bahai Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 12:27:10 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <19970317192547187.AAA191@smsmith> X-Mozilla-Status: 0014 Content-Length: 2961 Mr. Glaysher, Thank you for your submission to soc.religion.bahai. I am returning it to you unposted as the moderators of srb are no longer posting submissions related to the issues you mention. Please do not submit to srb any further postings regarding the trb or censorship. These are all being referred to newsgroups. Thank you. S. Michele Smith co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai srb-mods@bcca.org ---------- From: FG@hotmail.com To: Cc: talisman@umich.edu; irfan@umich.edu; bahai-faith@bcca.org Subject: Re: NO vote campaign talk.religion.bahai Date: Monday, March 17, 1997 4:39 AM On Mon, 17 Mar 1997 06:16:32 GMT, maitreya@worldnet.att.net (Joseph M. Emmanuel) wrote: > On Sun, 16 Mar 1997 16:40:48 -0500, Roger Reini wrote: > > >Joseph M. Emmanuel wrote: > > > >> I have to agree with you. The censorship is definitely there, in Baha'i > >> newsgroups. I imagine it is true in all through their organization! > >> I sent my yes vote for the new newsgroups to the address you had in your > >> message. > >> > > > >IMHO, I believe that the reason your posts were being rejected was that > >they were not within the charter of the newsgroup. The discussions may > >have started within the charter, but it ended up outside the scope of > >the newsgroup (a not-uncommon event). > > > >Would one consider posts rejected because they're off-topic > >"censorship"? In the context of the discussion here, I would not. > > > >Roger (rreini@wwnet.com) > > Then their charter is too restrictive. It is set up to censure. We need > another news group which is less restrictive. Let them stay in their > little world. Let others be able to discuss this religion, which claim to > be open, for what it really is! "It is set up to censure": I believe here you've hit the nail on head, as they say.... Read my Response to a Fanatic on news.groups for an indication of where Mr. Reini is coming from, incidentally.... Many people have now stated this openly, while others have emailed me in fear, apparently, of some sort of retaliation, real or imagined, on the part of the moderators of soc.religion.bahai, or perhaps someone in the Bahai administration.... I think all this FEAR itself makes an overwhelming case that there really ought to be a forum for discussion available on the Bahai Faith that no one can manipulate and control: talk.religion.bahai > > > -Joseph (maitreya@maitreya.org) > One God, One World, One Humanity > Unity Of All Under One God > https://www.maitreya.org Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA -- Posted using Reference.COM https://www.reference.com Browse, Search and Post Usenet and Mailing list Archive and Catalog. InReference, Inc. accepts no responsibility for the content of this posting. From - Wed Apr 09 08:20:29 1997 >From aq974@lafn.org Fri Mar 21 10:26:56 1997 Received: by lafn.org id AA09313 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for FG@hotmail.com); Fri, 21 Mar 1997 10:26:21 -0800 Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 10:26:21 -0800 Message-Id: <199703211826.AA09313@lafn.org> From: aq974@lafn.org (Bon Giovanni) To: FG@hotmail.com Subject: Re: NO vote campaign talk.religion.bahai Reply-To: BonGiovanni@delphi.com X-Mozilla-Status: 0014 Content-Length: 264 Hi, Some years ago I was active in the srb discussions, and in the private listservers, so I do understand the purpose of trb, and vote YES. However, your posting of private emails is heinous: shame on you! https://www.geocities.com/Athens/7284 *+* From - Thu Apr 10 08:17:58 1997 >From aq974@lafn.org Fri Mar 21 10:26:56 1997 Received: by lafn.org id AA09313 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for FG@hotmail.com); Fri, 21 Mar 1997 10:26:21 -0800 Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 10:26:21 -0800 Message-Id: <199703211826.AA09313@lafn.org> From: aq974@lafn.org (Bon Giovanni) To: FG@hotmail.com Subject: Re: NO vote campaign talk.religion.bahai Reply-To: BonGiovanni@delphi.com X-Mozilla-Status: 0014 Content-Length: 264 Hi, Some years ago I was active in the srb discussions, and in the private listservers, so I do understand the purpose of trb, and vote YES. However, your posting of private emails is heinous: shame on you! https://www.geocities.com/Athens/7284 *+* From - Thu Apr 10 08:18:14 1997 >From gazissax@netcom.com Sun Mar 23 12:48:10 1997 Received: (from gazissax@localhost) by netcom19.netcom.com (8.6.13/Netcom) id MAA29935; Sun, 23 Mar 1997 12:48:14 -0800 From: gazissax@netcom.com (Lynn Diana Gazis) Message-Id: <199703232048.MAA29935@netcom19.netcom.com> Subject: Re: NO vote campaign talk.religion.bahai To: FG@hotmail.com Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 12:48:14 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <199703231349.FAA04845@shadowfax.reference.com> from "FG@hotmail.com" at Mar 23, 97 05:49:12 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0014 Content-Length: 117 I posted a followup making it clear that I'm not accusing you of any campaign irregularities. Lynn Gazis-Sax From - Thu Apr 10 08:14:12 1997 >From keillan@quest.cc.purdue.edu Sat Mar 15 09:01:28 1997 Received: (from keillan@localhost) by quest.cc.purdue.edu (7.2.5/7.2.5) id LAA37604 for FG@hotmail.com; Sat, 15 Mar 1997 11:59:41 -0500 From: "Kelly G. Willis" Message-Id: <199703151659.LAA37604@quest.cc.purdue.edu> Subject: Re: NO vote campaign talk.religion.bahai (or) This is your Brain To: FG@hotmail.com Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 11:59:40 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: <199703151151.DAA23314@shadowfax.reference.com> from "FG@hotmail.com" at Mar 15, 97 03:51:07 am Organization: Purdue University, Department of Chemistry X-URL: https://quest.cc.purdue.edu/~keillan/ X-Geek-Code: GS d- s+:+ a- C+ UA P+ L E? W++ N+ o? K- w+ !O M-- V? PS PE+(-) Y? PGP+ t+ 5++ X R tv+ b+ DI++++ !D G++ e++>++++$ h+ r- y- X-Copyright: 1997, Kelly G. Willis; all rights reserved (I think) X-Incantation: In the Perception of the Universe and by the Nine Dark Moons... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0014 Content-Length: 1812 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Using technology of the Second Millenium, thou didst unto me write: *> Since there's been a campaign to defeat talk.religion.bahai, *> I thought you might be interested in seeing the evidence. *> This appeal for NO votes was apparently posted recently to the *> Bahai woman's discussion listserv. Ho Fredrick! Thanks for the information that you thoughtfully relayed. While some of the concerns that Mr. Towfiq brought up are valid, I nevertheless feel that your argument is the stronger. I have voted YES to the proposal on the grounds that opponents of the Faith desire it. This reasoning sounds weird, but if those who wish to disprove feel restricted on s.r.b., then there should exist a forum for them to "undermine" the Faith. I feel that such a forum would actually be a benefit to the Faith as it would lead to a higher level of certitude. The issue of Covenant Breakers is not as relevant as I believe that they would still be pesty. (I have learned that some send e-mail to Baha'is active on the Internet, which could include s.r.b. posters.) - -- ----- \\\\\\\\\ Only from the mind of Kelly G. Willis // Purdue University ) ( | \\ Email: keillan@purdue.edu // Dept. of Chemistry / \ --O-- /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// (_____) | // "Dead? No excuse for laying off work!" -- The Supreme Being -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMyrVcLKLthhc7J6pAQEnUwP/W/krpyGP/bviIvLFP5l9CvbxDMQz3p5v /gDKwJV9TQgqiv9Qp7kBlfatifNoHIXcW0QSrxrbZ8FmGDghrf9hI6GaKyfMNgs7 2E4yeIegHMirIgfNPY3/QuBsL8awZCqtcBz2xxuBa9biqleuFLZ7aNrZ7sg2RpW6 +jw324dWX1k= =acPY -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From - Wed Apr 09 08:12:39 1997 >From keillan@quest.cc.purdue.edu Sat Mar 15 09:01:28 1997 Received: (from keillan@localhost) by quest.cc.purdue.edu (7.2.5/7.2.5) id LAA37604 for FG@hotmail.com; Sat, 15 Mar 1997 11:59:41 -0500 From: "Kelly G. Willis" Message-Id: <199703151659.LAA37604@quest.cc.purdue.edu> Subject: Re: NO vote campaign talk.religion.bahai (or) This is your Brain To: FG@hotmail.com Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 11:59:40 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: <199703151151.DAA23314@shadowfax.reference.com> from "FG@hotmail.com" at Mar 15, 97 03:51:07 am Organization: Purdue University, Department of Chemistry X-URL: https://quest.cc.purdue.edu/~keillan/ X-Geek-Code: GS d- s+:+ a- C+ UA P+ L E? W++ N+ o? K- w+ !O M-- V? PS PE+(-) Y? PGP+ t+ 5++ X R tv+ b+ DI++++ !D G++ e++>++++$ h+ r- y- X-Copyright: 1997, Kelly G. Willis; all rights reserved (I think) X-Incantation: In the Perception of the Universe and by the Nine Dark Moons... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0014 Content-Length: 1812 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Using technology of the Second Millenium, thou didst unto me write: *> Since there's been a campaign to defeat talk.religion.bahai, *> I thought you might be interested in seeing the evidence. *> This appeal for NO votes was apparently posted recently to the *> Bahai woman's discussion listserv. Ho Fredrick! Thanks for the information that you thoughtfully relayed. While some of the concerns that Mr. Towfiq brought up are valid, I nevertheless feel that your argument is the stronger. I have voted YES to the proposal on the grounds that opponents of the Faith desire it. This reasoning sounds weird, but if those who wish to disprove feel restricted on s.r.b., then there should exist a forum for them to "undermine" the Faith. I feel that such a forum would actually be a benefit to the Faith as it would lead to a higher level of certitude. The issue of Covenant Breakers is not as relevant as I believe that they would still be pesty. (I have learned that some send e-mail to Baha'is active on the Internet, which could include s.r.b. posters.) - -- ----- \\\\\\\\\ Only from the mind of Kelly G. Willis // Purdue University ) ( | \\ Email: keillan@purdue.edu // Dept. of Chemistry / \ --O-- /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// (_____) | // "Dead? No excuse for laying off work!" -- The Supreme Being -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMyrVcLKLthhc7J6pAQEnUwP/W/krpyGP/bviIvLFP5l9CvbxDMQz3p5v /gDKwJV9TQgqiv9Qp7kBlfatifNoHIXcW0QSrxrbZ8FmGDghrf9hI6GaKyfMNgs7 2E4yeIegHMirIgfNPY3/QuBsL8awZCqtcBz2xxuBa9biqleuFLZ7aNrZ7sg2RpW6 +jw324dWX1k= =acPY -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From - Mon Apr 07 07:52:22 1997 >From jgoldberg@megsinet.net Fri Mar 28 16:13:00 1997 Received: from ns.megsinet.net ([208.150.38.62]) by megspo1.megsinet.net (post.office MTA v2.0 0813 ID# 0-11704) with SMTP id AAA135; Fri, 28 Mar 1997 18:10:26 -0600 Message-ID: <333C5B13.4DB8@megsinet.net> Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 17:58:11 -0600 From: jgoldberg@megsinet.net (Jeffrey Goldberg) Reply-To: jgoldberg@megsinet.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: group-advice@uunet.uu.net CC: FG@hotmail.com Subject: No vote on talk.religion.bahai Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0004 Content-Length: 641 I was one of those who voted yes to talk.religion.bahai. I believe that most of the no votes are from Baha'is who wish to silence any dissenting voices on various issues. My understanding of usenet protocols is that persons who think a group is a bad idea or who won't use it, should abstain, and that only technical objections are the basis for a no vote. I believe that the 157 people who voted for talk.religion.bahai should be allowed to freely discuss the Baha'i religion without interference from a group of paranoid Baha'is who believe that all discussion of their religion must be carefully controlled and censored. From - Wed Apr 09 08:12:12 1997 >From panuser@reference.com Thu Mar 13 04:24:08 1997 Received: (from panuser@localhost) by shadowfax.reference.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) id EAA18206; Thu, 13 Mar 1997 04:22:41 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 04:22:41 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199703131222.EAA18206@shadowfax.reference.com> From: FG@hotmail.com Newsgroups: news.groups Cc: FG@hotmail.com Subject: No! vote campaign talk.religion.bahai Organization: Reference.Com Posting Service X-Mozilla-Status: 0004 Content-Length: 4436 (I'm reposting this since I can't get it to come up on news.groups. Apologies for redundancy if it's there.) This appeal for NO votes was apparently posted recently to the Bahai woman's discussion listserv. >Mark Towfiq (towfiq@justice.medford.ma.us) wrote: >Subject: RE: Pointer: CFV talk.religion.bahai >Dear friends, a situation which has been developing over the past few >months has finally come to a head. > >As many of you may already know, the soc.religion.bahai newsgroup >was created in the Holy Year (1992) to serve as a forum for the >Friends to discuss the Faith on USENET and a non-threatening >place for people investigating the Baha'i Faith to ask questions >and receive answers. As part of its creation, we decided that >it should be moderated, and that the Charter should spell out >very clearly what were unacceptable types of postings. Among >such unacceptable postings were deemed personal insults and >attacks on individuals and religious institutions. >Later last year, the Charter was made more explicit to exclude >postings which undermine the Covenant. The newsgroup has been >moderated by a set of Baha'is since its inception who, in my >opinion, have applied the Charter and Baha'i principles to a >high degree of fairness, and have maintained a rather good tone >and environment. We have received numerous compliments about >this over the years. > >Recently, an individual, Frederick Glaysher (I do not know if >he is a Baha'i or not), I have been a member of the Bahai Faith for over 20 years. >has accused the moderators of >soc.religion.bahai of "censorship", claiming that they will not >allow his point of view to be posted there. I am not the only person to accuse, quite accurately, the "moderators" of censorship. Several people have. Read the discussion on news.groups >As a result, he >has asked for the creation of a new, unmoderated forum, called >talk.religion.bahai. The postings which Mr. Glaysher complains >about were all rejected on the basis of tone; he wanted to >post open insults and sarcasm, Where in the Bahai Writings does it state, THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT SARCASM! An incisive literary tool for dealing with tyrants in all ages of human history.... Despots have always feared it revealing edge.... >and the moderators >asked him to re-phrase his postings. "Self-censor" would be more like it.... >He refused, and claimed >he was being censored, and embarked upon this campaign to >create a new newsgroup. I would call it a campaign for human freedom of religious conscience and dignity against fanatics and extremists in the Bahai Faith like Mark Towfiq.... >Dear Friends, if this new newsgroup is created, in my opinion >it will cause great confusion; there will now be two, almost >identical fora to discuss the Faith, but one of them will allow >any sorts of postings, including postings from Covenant-breakers. >Besides this fact, such a newsgroup is not necessary, as there >exist plenty of open forums on USENET (such as >talk.relgion.misc) where Mr. Glaysher may post his opinions >"freely". The points of the foregoing paragraph have been discussed fully over the past weeks. See news.groups.... > >HOW TO VOTE NO: Send email to: jjd@primenet.com > >With the only text of the message being: > > I vote NO on talk.religion.bahai > It's widely considered on USEnet unethical to vote NO when 100 or more people wish to form a newsgroup on any subject. To vote NO for ideological reasons, here clearly religious reasons, would be a disgrace to the Bahai Faith. Are you, Mr. Towfiq, trying to prove to the world the Bahai Faith is full of ignorant, contemptible fanatics? You're doing a good job of it. >I would be happy to provide further information or >answer any questions about this matter. > >Regards, >Mark Towfiq > > Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA -- Posted using Reference.COM https://www.reference.com Browse, Search and Post Usenet and Mailing list Archive and Catalog. InReference, Inc. accepts no responsibility for the content of this posting. From - Thu Apr 10 08:10:44 1997 >From panuser@reference.com Thu Mar 13 04:24:08 1997 Received: (from panuser@localhost) by shadowfax.reference.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) id EAA18206; Thu, 13 Mar 1997 04:22:41 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 04:22:41 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199703131222.EAA18206@shadowfax.reference.com> From: FG@hotmail.com Newsgroups: news.groups Cc: FG@hotmail.com Subject: No! vote campaign talk.religion.bahai Organization: Reference.Com Posting Service X-Mozilla-Status: 0004 Content-Length: 4436 (I'm reposting this since I can't get it to come up on news.groups. Apologies for redundancy if it's there.) This appeal for NO votes was apparently posted recently to the Bahai woman's discussion listserv. >Mark Towfiq (towfiq@justice.medford.ma.us) wrote: >Subject: RE: Pointer: CFV talk.religion.bahai >Dear friends, a situation which has been developing over the past few >months has finally come to a head. > >As many of you may already know, the soc.religion.bahai newsgroup >was created in the Holy Year (1992) to serve as a forum for the >Friends to discuss the Faith on USENET and a non-threatening >place for people investigating the Baha'i Faith to ask questions >and receive answers. As part of its creation, we decided that >it should be moderated, and that the Charter should spell out >very clearly what were unacceptable types of postings. Among >such unacceptable postings were deemed personal insults and >attacks on individuals and religious institutions. >Later last year, the Charter was made more explicit to exclude >postings which undermine the Covenant. The newsgroup has been >moderated by a set of Baha'is since its inception who, in my >opinion, have applied the Charter and Baha'i principles to a >high degree of fairness, and have maintained a rather good tone >and environment. We have received numerous compliments about >this over the years. > >Recently, an individual, Frederick Glaysher (I do not know if >he is a Baha'i or not), I have been a member of the Bahai Faith for over 20 years. >has accused the moderators of >soc.religion.bahai of "censorship", claiming that they will not >allow his point of view to be posted there. I am not the only person to accuse, quite accurately, the "moderators" of censorship. Several people have. Read the discussion on news.groups >As a result, he >has asked for the creation of a new, unmoderated forum, called >talk.religion.bahai. The postings which Mr. Glaysher complains >about were all rejected on the basis of tone; he wanted to >post open insults and sarcasm, Where in the Bahai Writings does it state, THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT SARCASM! An incisive literary tool for dealing with tyrants in all ages of human history.... Despots have always feared it revealing edge.... >and the moderators >asked him to re-phrase his postings. "Self-censor" would be more like it.... >He refused, and claimed >he was being censored, and embarked upon this campaign to >create a new newsgroup. I would call it a campaign for human freedom of religious conscience and dignity against fanatics and extremists in the Bahai Faith like Mark Towfiq.... >Dear Friends, if this new newsgroup is created, in my opinion >it will cause great confusion; there will now be two, almost >identical fora to discuss the Faith, but one of them will allow >any sorts of postings, including postings from Covenant-breakers. >Besides this fact, such a newsgroup is not necessary, as there >exist plenty of open forums on USENET (such as >talk.relgion.misc) where Mr. Glaysher may post his opinions >"freely". The points of the foregoing paragraph have been discussed fully over the past weeks. See news.groups.... > >HOW TO VOTE NO: Send email to: jjd@primenet.com > >With the only text of the message being: > > I vote NO on talk.religion.bahai > It's widely considered on USEnet unethical to vote NO when 100 or more people wish to form a newsgroup on any subject. To vote NO for ideological reasons, here clearly religious reasons, would be a disgrace to the Bahai Faith. Are you, Mr. Towfiq, trying to prove to the world the Bahai Faith is full of ignorant, contemptible fanatics? You're doing a good job of it. >I would be happy to provide further information or >answer any questions about this matter. > >Regards, >Mark Towfiq > > Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA -- Posted using Reference.COM https://www.reference.com Browse, Search and Post Usenet and Mailing list Archive and Catalog. InReference, Inc. accepts no responsibility for the content of this posting. From - Mon Apr 07 07:29:45 1997 >From panuser@reference.com Thu Mar 13 04:24:08 1997 Received: (from panuser@localhost) by shadowfax.reference.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) id EAA18206; Thu, 13 Mar 1997 04:22:41 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 04:22:41 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199703131222.EAA18206@shadowfax.reference.com> From: FG@hotmail.com Newsgroups: news.groups Cc: FG@hotmail.com Subject: No! vote campaign talk.religion.bahai Organization: Reference.Com Posting Service X-Mozilla-Status: 0004 Content-Length: 4436 (I'm reposting this since I can't get it to come up on news.groups. Apologies for redundancy if it's there.) This appeal for NO votes was apparently posted recently to the Bahai woman's discussion listserv. >Mark Towfiq (towfiq@justice.medford.ma.us) wrote: >Subject: RE: Pointer: CFV talk.religion.bahai >Dear friends, a situation which has been developing over the past few >months has finally come to a head. > >As many of you may already know, the soc.religion.bahai newsgroup >was created in the Holy Year (1992) to serve as a forum for the >Friends to discuss the Faith on USENET and a non-threatening >place for people investigating the Baha'i Faith to ask questions >and receive answers. As part of its creation, we decided that >it should be moderated, and that the Charter should spell out >very clearly what were unacceptable types of postings. Among >such unacceptable postings were deemed personal insults and >attacks on individuals and religious institutions. >Later last year, the Charter was made more explicit to exclude >postings which undermine the Covenant. The newsgroup has been >moderated by a set of Baha'is since its inception who, in my >opinion, have applied the Charter and Baha'i principles to a >high degree of fairness, and have maintained a rather good tone >and environment. We have received numerous compliments about >this over the years. > >Recently, an individual, Frederick Glaysher (I do not know if >he is a Baha'i or not), I have been a member of the Bahai Faith for over 20 years. >has accused the moderators of >soc.religion.bahai of "censorship", claiming that they will not >allow his point of view to be posted there. I am not the only person to accuse, quite accurately, the "moderators" of censorship. Several people have. Read the discussion on news.groups >As a result, he >has asked for the creation of a new, unmoderated forum, called >talk.religion.bahai. The postings which Mr. Glaysher complains >about were all rejected on the basis of tone; he wanted to >post open insults and sarcasm, Where in the Bahai Writings does it state, THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT SARCASM! An incisive literary tool for dealing with tyrants in all ages of human history.... Despots have always feared it revealing edge.... >and the moderators >asked him to re-phrase his postings. "Self-censor" would be more like it.... >He refused, and claimed >he was being censored, and embarked upon this campaign to >create a new newsgroup. I would call it a campaign for human freedom of religious conscience and dignity against fanatics and extremists in the Bahai Faith like Mark Towfiq.... >Dear Friends, if this new newsgroup is created, in my opinion >it will cause great confusion; there will now be two, almost >identical fora to discuss the Faith, but one of them will allow >any sorts of postings, including postings from Covenant-breakers. >Besides this fact, such a newsgroup is not necessary, as there >exist plenty of open forums on USENET (such as >talk.relgion.misc) where Mr. Glaysher may post his opinions >"freely". The points of the foregoing paragraph have been discussed fully over the past weeks. See news.groups.... > >HOW TO VOTE NO: Send email to: jjd@primenet.com > >With the only text of the message being: > > I vote NO on talk.religion.bahai > It's widely considered on USEnet unethical to vote NO when 100 or more people wish to form a newsgroup on any subject. To vote NO for ideological reasons, here clearly religious reasons, would be a disgrace to the Bahai Faith. Are you, Mr. Towfiq, trying to prove to the world the Bahai Faith is full of ignorant, contemptible fanatics? You're doing a good job of it. >I would be happy to provide further information or >answer any questions about this matter. > >Regards, >Mark Towfiq > > Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA -- Posted using Reference.COM https://www.reference.com Browse, Search and Post Usenet and Mailing list Archive and Catalog. InReference, Inc. accepts no responsibility for the content of this posting. From - Wed Apr 09 08:12:16 1997 >From panuser@reference.com Thu Mar 13 04:26:29 1997 Received: (from panuser@localhost) by shadowfax.reference.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) id EAA18244; Thu, 13 Mar 1997 04:25:00 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 04:25:00 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199703131225.EAA18244@shadowfax.reference.com> From: FG@hotmail.com Newsgroups: alt.religion.islam Cc: FG@hotmail.com Subject: No! vote campaign talk.religion.bahai Organization: Reference.Com Posting Service X-Mozilla-Status: 0004 Content-Length: 4436 (I'm reposting this since I can't get it to come up on news.groups. Apologies for redundancy if it's there.) This appeal for NO votes was apparently posted recently to the Bahai woman's discussion listserv. >Mark Towfiq (towfiq@justice.medford.ma.us) wrote: >Subject: RE: Pointer: CFV talk.religion.bahai >Dear friends, a situation which has been developing over the past few >months has finally come to a head. > >As many of you may already know, the soc.religion.bahai newsgroup >was created in the Holy Year (1992) to serve as a forum for the >Friends to discuss the Faith on USENET and a non-threatening >place for people investigating the Baha'i Faith to ask questions >and receive answers. As part of its creation, we decided that >it should be moderated, and that the Charter should spell out >very clearly what were unacceptable types of postings. Among >such unacceptable postings were deemed personal insults and >attacks on individuals and religious institutions. >Later last year, the Charter was made more explicit to exclude >postings which undermine the Covenant. The newsgroup has been >moderated by a set of Baha'is since its inception who, in my >opinion, have applied the Charter and Baha'i principles to a >high degree of fairness, and have maintained a rather good tone >and environment. We have received numerous compliments about >this over the years. > >Recently, an individual, Frederick Glaysher (I do not know if >he is a Baha'i or not), I have been a member of the Bahai Faith for over 20 years. >has accused the moderators of >soc.religion.bahai of "censorship", claiming that they will not >allow his point of view to be posted there. I am not the only person to accuse, quite accurately, the "moderators" of censorship. Several people have. Read the discussion on news.groups >As a result, he >has asked for the creation of a new, unmoderated forum, called >talk.religion.bahai. The postings which Mr. Glaysher complains >about were all rejected on the basis of tone; he wanted to >post open insults and sarcasm, Where in the Bahai Writings does it state, THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT SARCASM! An incisive literary tool for dealing with tyrants in all ages of human history.... Despots have always feared it revealing edge.... >and the moderators >asked him to re-phrase his postings. "Self-censor" would be more like it.... >He refused, and claimed >he was being censored, and embarked upon this campaign to >create a new newsgroup. I would call it a campaign for human freedom of religious conscience and dignity against fanatics and extremists in the Bahai Faith like Mark Towfiq.... >Dear Friends, if this new newsgroup is created, in my opinion >it will cause great confusion; there will now be two, almost >identical fora to discuss the Faith, but one of them will allow >any sorts of postings, including postings from Covenant-breakers. >Besides this fact, such a newsgroup is not necessary, as there >exist plenty of open forums on USENET (such as >talk.relgion.misc) where Mr. Glaysher may post his opinions >"freely". The points of the foregoing paragraph have been discussed fully over the past weeks. See news.groups.... > >HOW TO VOTE NO: Send email to: jjd@primenet.com > >With the only text of the message being: > > I vote NO on talk.religion.bahai > It's widely considered on USEnet unethical to vote NO when 100 or more people wish to form a newsgroup on any subject. To vote NO for ideological reasons, here clearly religious reasons, would be a disgrace to the Bahai Faith. Are you, Mr. Towfiq, trying to prove to the world the Bahai Faith is full of ignorant, contemptible fanatics? You're doing a good job of it. >I would be happy to provide further information or >answer any questions about this matter. > >Regards, >Mark Towfiq > > Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA -- Posted using Reference.COM https://www.reference.com Browse, Search and Post Usenet and Mailing list Archive and Catalog. InReference, Inc. accepts no responsibility for the content of this posting. From - Thu Apr 10 08:10:48 1997 >From panuser@reference.com Thu Mar 13 04:26:29 1997 Received: (from panuser@localhost) by shadowfax.reference.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) id EAA18244; Thu, 13 Mar 1997 04:25:00 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 04:25:00 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199703131225.EAA18244@shadowfax.reference.com> From: FG@hotmail.com Newsgroups: alt.religion.islam Cc: FG@hotmail.com Subject: No! vote campaign talk.religion.bahai Organization: Reference.Com Posting Service X-Mozilla-Status: 0004 Content-Length: 4436 (I'm reposting this since I can't get it to come up on news.groups. Apologies for redundancy if it's there.) This appeal for NO votes was apparently posted recently to the Bahai woman's discussion listserv. >Mark Towfiq (towfiq@justice.medford.ma.us) wrote: >Subject: RE: Pointer: CFV talk.religion.bahai >Dear friends, a situation which has been developing over the past few >months has finally come to a head. > >As many of you may already know, the soc.religion.bahai newsgroup >was created in the Holy Year (1992) to serve as a forum for the >Friends to discuss the Faith on USENET and a non-threatening >place for people investigating the Baha'i Faith to ask questions >and receive answers. As part of its creation, we decided that >it should be moderated, and that the Charter should spell out >very clearly what were unacceptable types of postings. Among >such unacceptable postings were deemed personal insults and >attacks on individuals and religious institutions. >Later last year, the Charter was made more explicit to exclude >postings which undermine the Covenant. The newsgroup has been >moderated by a set of Baha'is since its inception who, in my >opinion, have applied the Charter and Baha'i principles to a >high degree of fairness, and have maintained a rather good tone >and environment. We have received numerous compliments about >this over the years. > >Recently, an individual, Frederick Glaysher (I do not know if >he is a Baha'i or not), I have been a member of the Bahai Faith for over 20 years. >has accused the moderators of >soc.religion.bahai of "censorship", claiming that they will not >allow his point of view to be posted there. I am not the only person to accuse, quite accurately, the "moderators" of censorship. Several people have. Read the discussion on news.groups >As a result, he >has asked for the creation of a new, unmoderated forum, called >talk.religion.bahai. The postings which Mr. Glaysher complains >about were all rejected on the basis of tone; he wanted to >post open insults and sarcasm, Where in the Bahai Writings does it state, THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT SARCASM! An incisive literary tool for dealing with tyrants in all ages of human history.... Despots have always feared it revealing edge.... >and the moderators >asked him to re-phrase his postings. "Self-censor" would be more like it.... >He refused, and claimed >he was being censored, and embarked upon this campaign to >create a new newsgroup. I would call it a campaign for human freedom of religious conscience and dignity against fanatics and extremists in the Bahai Faith like Mark Towfiq.... >Dear Friends, if this new newsgroup is created, in my opinion >it will cause great confusion; there will now be two, almost >identical fora to discuss the Faith, but one of them will allow >any sorts of postings, including postings from Covenant-breakers. >Besides this fact, such a newsgroup is not necessary, as there >exist plenty of open forums on USENET (such as >talk.relgion.misc) where Mr. Glaysher may post his opinions >"freely". The points of the foregoing paragraph have been discussed fully over the past weeks. See news.groups.... > >HOW TO VOTE NO: Send email to: jjd@primenet.com > >With the only text of the message being: > > I vote NO on talk.religion.bahai > It's widely considered on USEnet unethical to vote NO when 100 or more people wish to form a newsgroup on any subject. To vote NO for ideological reasons, here clearly religious reasons, would be a disgrace to the Bahai Faith. Are you, Mr. Towfiq, trying to prove to the world the Bahai Faith is full of ignorant, contemptible fanatics? You're doing a good job of it. >I would be happy to provide further information or >answer any questions about this matter. > >Regards, >Mark Towfiq > > Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA -- Posted using Reference.COM https://www.reference.com Browse, Search and Post Usenet and Mailing list Archive and Catalog. InReference, Inc. accepts no responsibility for the content of this posting. From - Thu Apr 10 08:14:10 1997 >From osborndo@pilot.msu.edu Fri Mar 14 08:41:54 1997 Received: from algeria (meke.isp.msu.edu [35.8.242.49]) by pilot14.cl.msu.edu (8.7.5/MSU-2.10) id LAA25724; Fri, 14 Mar 1997 11:39:24 -0500 Message-Id: <199703141639.LAA25724@pilot14.cl.msu.edu> Date: Fri, 14 Mar 97 11:43:01 -0800 From: Donald Zhang Osborn Organization: ---- X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.22 (Windows; I; 16bit) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: news.groups To: towfiq@justice.medford.ma.us, FG@hotmail.com Subject: Re: No! vote campaign talk.religion.bahai References: <5g8rii$bi5$1@bilbo.reference.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mozilla-Status: 0014 Content-Length: 927 This reply to Mark Towfiq by Frederick Glaysher was also posted by him (FG) to soc.rights.human, soc.culture.iranian, & soc.culture.israel. As has been mentioned elsewhere, Mr. Towfiq's posting (which he has since retracted) appeared on two other e-mail lists in addition to the one mentioned below. Don't know if any of this has any bearing on consideration of voting irregularities. DZO osborndo@pilot.msu.edu FG@hotmail.com wrote: >(I'm reposting this since I can't get it to come up on >news.groups. Apologies for redundancy if it's there.)>>This appeal for NO = votes was apparently posted recently to the > Bahai woman's discussion listserv.> > >Mark Towfiq (towfiq@justice.medford.ma.us) wrote:>> >Subject: RE: Pointer: CFV talk.religion.bahai>> >Dear friends, a situation w= hich has been developing over the past few> >months has finally come to a head.> >[rest deleted] From - Wed Apr 09 08:12:37 1997 >From osborndo@pilot.msu.edu Fri Mar 14 08:41:54 1997 Received: from algeria (meke.isp.msu.edu [35.8.242.49]) by pilot14.cl.msu.edu (8.7.5/MSU-2.10) id LAA25724; Fri, 14 Mar 1997 11:39:24 -0500 Message-Id: <199703141639.LAA25724@pilot14.cl.msu.edu> Date: Fri, 14 Mar 97 11:43:01 -0800 From: Donald Zhang Osborn Organization: ---- X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.22 (Windows; I; 16bit) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: news.groups To: towfiq@justice.medford.ma.us, FG@hotmail.com Subject: Re: No! vote campaign talk.religion.bahai References: <5g8rii$bi5$1@bilbo.reference.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mozilla-Status: 0014 Content-Length: 927 This reply to Mark Towfiq by Frederick Glaysher was also posted by him (FG) to soc.rights.human, soc.culture.iranian, & soc.culture.israel. As has been mentioned elsewhere, Mr. Towfiq's posting (which he has since retracted) appeared on two other e-mail lists in addition to the one mentioned below. Don't know if any of this has any bearing on consideration of voting irregularities. DZO osborndo@pilot.msu.edu FG@hotmail.com wrote: >(I'm reposting this since I can't get it to come up on >news.groups. Apologies for redundancy if it's there.)>>This appeal for NO = votes was apparently posted recently to the > Bahai woman's discussion listserv.> > >Mark Towfiq (towfiq@justice.medford.ma.us) wrote:>> >Subject: RE: Pointer: CFV talk.religion.bahai>> >Dear friends, a situation w= hich has been developing over the past few> >months has finally come to a head.> >[rest deleted] From - Thu Apr 10 08:10:15 1997 >From bn872@freenet.carleton.ca Wed Mar 12 05:24:43 1997 Received: from freenet2.carleton.ca (bn872@freenet2.carleton.ca [134.117.136.22]) by freenet.carleton.ca (8.8.3/8.6.4) with ESMTP id IAA13872 for ; Wed, 12 Mar 1997 08:24:34 -0500 (EST) Received: (bn872@localhost) by freenet2.carleton.ca (8.8.4/NCF-Sun-Client) id IAA08455; Wed, 12 Mar 1997 08:24:32 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 08:24:32 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199703121324.IAA08455@freenet2.carleton.ca> From: bn872@freenet.carleton.ca (McKenny Michael) To: FG@hotmail.com Subject: Re: NO! vote campaign: talk.religion.bahai Reply-To: bn872@freenet.carleton.ca X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Content-Length: 4685 Thanks for this. I'm passing it on to a literary circle of friends, all non- Baha'is, with the request they vote "Yes" and mean it, i.e. that they'll read the new newsgroup. Peace, Michael >This appeal for NO votes was apparently posted recently to the >Bahai woman's discussion listserv. > >>Mark Towfiq (towfiq@justice.medford.ma.us) wrote: > >>Subject: RE: Pointer: CFV talk.religion.bahai > >>Dear friends, a situation which has been developing over the past few >>months has finally come to a head. >> >>As many of you may already know, the soc.religion.bahai newsgroup >>was created in the Holy Year (1992) to serve as a forum for the >>Friends to discuss the Faith on USENET and a non-threatening >>place for people investigating the Baha'i Faith to ask questions >>and receive answers. As part of its creation, we decided that >>it should be moderated, and that the Charter should spell out >>very clearly what were unacceptable types of postings. Among >>such unacceptable postings were deemed personal insults and >>attacks on individuals and religious institutions. >>Later last year, the Charter was made more explicit to exclude >>postings which undermine the Covenant. The newsgroup has been >>moderated by a set of Baha'is since its inception who, in my >>opinion, have applied the Charter and Baha'i principles to a >>high degree of fairness, and have maintained a rather good tone >>and environment. We have received numerous compliments about >>this over the years. >> >>Recently, an individual, Frederick Glaysher (I do not know if >>he is a Baha'i or not), > >I have been a member of the Bahai Faith for over 20 years. > >>has accused the moderators of >>soc.religion.bahai of "censorship", claiming that they will not >>allow his point of view to be posted there. > >I am not the only person to accuse, quite accurately, the >"moderators" of censorship. Several people have. Read the >discussion on news.groups > >>As a result, he >>has asked for the creation of a new, unmoderated forum, called >>talk.religion.bahai. The postings which Mr. Glaysher complains >>about were all rejected on the basis of tone; he wanted to >>post open insults and sarcasm, > >Where in the Bahai Writings does it state, THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT >SARCASM! An incisive literary tool for dealing with tyrants >in all ages of human history.... Despots have always feared >it revealing edge.... > >>and the moderators >>asked him to re-phrase his postings. > >"Self-censor" would be more like it.... > >>He refused, and claimed >>he was being censored, and embarked upon this campaign to >>create a new newsgroup. > >I would call it a campaign for human freedom of religious >conscience and dignity against fanatics and extremists in >the Bahai Faith like Mark Towfiq.... > >>Dear Friends, if this new newsgroup is created, in my opinion >>it will cause great confusion; there will now be two, almost >>identical fora to discuss the Faith, but one of them will allow >>any sorts of postings, including postings from Covenant-breakers. >>Besides this fact, such a newsgroup is not necessary, as there >>exist plenty of open forums on USENET (such as >>talk.relgion.misc) where Mr. Glaysher may post his opinions >>"freely". > >The points of the foregoing paragraph have been discussed fully >over the past weeks. See news.groups.... > >> >>HOW TO VOTE NO: Send email to: jjd@primenet.com >> >>With the only text of the message being: >> >> I vote NO on talk.religion.bahai >> > >It's widely considered on USEnet unethical to vote NO when >100 or more people wish to form a newsgroup on any subject. >To vote NO for ideological reasons, here clearly religious >reasons, would be a disgrace to the Bahai Faith. Are you, >Mr. Towfiq, trying to prove to the world the Bahai Faith is >full of ignorant, contemptible fanatics? You're doing a >good job of it. > >>I would be happy to provide further information or >>answer any questions about this matter. >> >>Regards, >>Mark Towfiq >> >> > >Frederick Glaysher >Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > > >-- > >Posted using Reference.COM https://www.reference.com >Browse, Search and Post Usenet and Mailing list Archive and Catalog. > >InReference, Inc. accepts no responsibility for the content of this posting. > > -- "My name's McKenny, Mike McKenny, Warrant Officer, Solar Guard." (Tom Corbett #1 STAND BY FOR MARS p2) From - Wed Apr 09 08:11:42 1997 >From bn872@freenet.carleton.ca Wed Mar 12 05:24:43 1997 Received: from freenet2.carleton.ca (bn872@freenet2.carleton.ca [134.117.136.22]) by freenet.carleton.ca (8.8.3/8.6.4) with ESMTP id IAA13872 for ; Wed, 12 Mar 1997 08:24:34 -0500 (EST) Received: (bn872@localhost) by freenet2.carleton.ca (8.8.4/NCF-Sun-Client) id IAA08455; Wed, 12 Mar 1997 08:24:32 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 08:24:32 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199703121324.IAA08455@freenet2.carleton.ca> From: bn872@freenet.carleton.ca (McKenny Michael) To: FG@hotmail.com Subject: Re: NO! vote campaign: talk.religion.bahai Reply-To: bn872@freenet.carleton.ca X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Content-Length: 4685 Thanks for this. I'm passing it on to a literary circle of friends, all non- Baha'is, with the request they vote "Yes" and mean it, i.e. that they'll read the new newsgroup. Peace, Michael >This appeal for NO votes was apparently posted recently to the >Bahai woman's discussion listserv. > >>Mark Towfiq (towfiq@justice.medford.ma.us) wrote: > >>Subject: RE: Pointer: CFV talk.religion.bahai > >>Dear friends, a situation which has been developing over the past few >>months has finally come to a head. >> >>As many of you may already know, the soc.religion.bahai newsgroup >>was created in the Holy Year (1992) to serve as a forum for the >>Friends to discuss the Faith on USENET and a non-threatening >>place for people investigating the Baha'i Faith to ask questions >>and receive answers. As part of its creation, we decided that >>it should be moderated, and that the Charter should spell out >>very clearly what were unacceptable types of postings. Among >>such unacceptable postings were deemed personal insults and >>attacks on individuals and religious institutions. >>Later last year, the Charter was made more explicit to exclude >>postings which undermine the Covenant. The newsgroup has been >>moderated by a set of Baha'is since its inception who, in my >>opinion, have applied the Charter and Baha'i principles to a >>high degree of fairness, and have maintained a rather good tone >>and environment. We have received numerous compliments about >>this over the years. >> >>Recently, an individual, Frederick Glaysher (I do not know if >>he is a Baha'i or not), > >I have been a member of the Bahai Faith for over 20 years. > >>has accused the moderators of >>soc.religion.bahai of "censorship", claiming that they will not >>allow his point of view to be posted there. > >I am not the only person to accuse, quite accurately, the >"moderators" of censorship. Several people have. Read the >discussion on news.groups > >>As a result, he >>has asked for the creation of a new, unmoderated forum, called >>talk.religion.bahai. The postings which Mr. Glaysher complains >>about were all rejected on the basis of tone; he wanted to >>post open insults and sarcasm, > >Where in the Bahai Writings does it state, THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT >SARCASM! An incisive literary tool for dealing with tyrants >in all ages of human history.... Despots have always feared >it revealing edge.... > >>and the moderators >>asked him to re-phrase his postings. > >"Self-censor" would be more like it.... > >>He refused, and claimed >>he was being censored, and embarked upon this campaign to >>create a new newsgroup. > >I would call it a campaign for human freedom of religious >conscience and dignity against fanatics and extremists in >the Bahai Faith like Mark Towfiq.... > >>Dear Friends, if this new newsgroup is created, in my opinion >>it will cause great confusion; there will now be two, almost >>identical fora to discuss the Faith, but one of them will allow >>any sorts of postings, including postings from Covenant-breakers. >>Besides this fact, such a newsgroup is not necessary, as there >>exist plenty of open forums on USENET (such as >>talk.relgion.misc) where Mr. Glaysher may post his opinions >>"freely". > >The points of the foregoing paragraph have been discussed fully >over the past weeks. See news.groups.... > >> >>HOW TO VOTE NO: Send email to: jjd@primenet.com >> >>With the only text of the message being: >> >> I vote NO on talk.religion.bahai >> > >It's widely considered on USEnet unethical to vote NO when >100 or more people wish to form a newsgroup on any subject. >To vote NO for ideological reasons, here clearly religious >reasons, would be a disgrace to the Bahai Faith. Are you, >Mr. Towfiq, trying to prove to the world the Bahai Faith is >full of ignorant, contemptible fanatics? You're doing a >good job of it. > >>I would be happy to provide further information or >>answer any questions about this matter. >> >>Regards, >>Mark Towfiq >> >> > >Frederick Glaysher >Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > > >-- > >Posted using Reference.COM https://www.reference.com >Browse, Search and Post Usenet and Mailing list Archive and Catalog. > >InReference, Inc. accepts no responsibility for the content of this posting. > > -- "My name's McKenny, Mike McKenny, Warrant Officer, Solar Guard." (Tom Corbett #1 STAND BY FOR MARS p2) From - Mon Apr 07 07:29:15 1997 >From bn872@freenet.carleton.ca Wed Mar 12 05:24:43 1997 Received: from freenet2.carleton.ca (bn872@freenet2.carleton.ca [134.117.136.22]) by freenet.carleton.ca (8.8.3/8.6.4) with ESMTP id IAA13872 for ; Wed, 12 Mar 1997 08:24:34 -0500 (EST) Received: (bn872@localhost) by freenet2.carleton.ca (8.8.4/NCF-Sun-Client) id IAA08455; Wed, 12 Mar 1997 08:24:32 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 08:24:32 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199703121324.IAA08455@freenet2.carleton.ca> From: bn872@freenet.carleton.ca (McKenny Michael) To: FG@hotmail.com Subject: Re: NO! vote campaign: talk.religion.bahai Reply-To: bn872@freenet.carleton.ca X-Mozilla-Status: 0014 Content-Length: 4685 Thanks for this. I'm passing it on to a literary circle of friends, all non- Baha'is, with the request they vote "Yes" and mean it, i.e. that they'll read the new newsgroup. Peace, Michael >This appeal for NO votes was apparently posted recently to the >Bahai woman's discussion listserv. > >>Mark Towfiq (towfiq@justice.medford.ma.us) wrote: > >>Subject: RE: Pointer: CFV talk.religion.bahai > >>Dear friends, a situation which has been developing over the past few >>months has finally come to a head. >> >>As many of you may already know, the soc.religion.bahai newsgroup >>was created in the Holy Year (1992) to serve as a forum for the >>Friends to discuss the Faith on USENET and a non-threatening >>place for people investigating the Baha'i Faith to ask questions >>and receive answers. As part of its creation, we decided that >>it should be moderated, and that the Charter should spell out >>very clearly what were unacceptable types of postings. Among >>such unacceptable postings were deemed personal insults and >>attacks on individuals and religious institutions. >>Later last year, the Charter was made more explicit to exclude >>postings which undermine the Covenant. The newsgroup has been >>moderated by a set of Baha'is since its inception who, in my >>opinion, have applied the Charter and Baha'i principles to a >>high degree of fairness, and have maintained a rather good tone >>and environment. We have received numerous compliments about >>this over the years. >> >>Recently, an individual, Frederick Glaysher (I do not know if >>he is a Baha'i or not), > >I have been a member of the Bahai Faith for over 20 years. > >>has accused the moderators of >>soc.religion.bahai of "censorship", claiming that they will not >>allow his point of view to be posted there. > >I am not the only person to accuse, quite accurately, the >"moderators" of censorship. Several people have. Read the >discussion on news.groups > >>As a result, he >>has asked for the creation of a new, unmoderated forum, called >>talk.religion.bahai. The postings which Mr. Glaysher complains >>about were all rejected on the basis of tone; he wanted to >>post open insults and sarcasm, > >Where in the Bahai Writings does it state, THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT >SARCASM! An incisive literary tool for dealing with tyrants >in all ages of human history.... Despots have always feared >it revealing edge.... > >>and the moderators >>asked him to re-phrase his postings. > >"Self-censor" would be more like it.... > >>He refused, and claimed >>he was being censored, and embarked upon this campaign to >>create a new newsgroup. > >I would call it a campaign for human freedom of religious >conscience and dignity against fanatics and extremists in >the Bahai Faith like Mark Towfiq.... > >>Dear Friends, if this new newsgroup is created, in my opinion >>it will cause great confusion; there will now be two, almost >>identical fora to discuss the Faith, but one of them will allow >>any sorts of postings, including postings from Covenant-breakers. >>Besides this fact, such a newsgroup is not necessary, as there >>exist plenty of open forums on USENET (such as >>talk.relgion.misc) where Mr. Glaysher may post his opinions >>"freely". > >The points of the foregoing paragraph have been discussed fully >over the past weeks. See news.groups.... > >> >>HOW TO VOTE NO: Send email to: jjd@primenet.com >> >>With the only text of the message being: >> >> I vote NO on talk.religion.bahai >> > >It's widely considered on USEnet unethical to vote NO when >100 or more people wish to form a newsgroup on any subject. >To vote NO for ideological reasons, here clearly religious >reasons, would be a disgrace to the Bahai Faith. Are you, >Mr. Towfiq, trying to prove to the world the Bahai Faith is >full of ignorant, contemptible fanatics? You're doing a >good job of it. > >>I would be happy to provide further information or >>answer any questions about this matter. >> >>Regards, >>Mark Towfiq >> >> > >Frederick Glaysher >Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > > >-- > >Posted using Reference.COM https://www.reference.com >Browse, Search and Post Usenet and Mailing list Archive and Catalog. > >InReference, Inc. accepts no responsibility for the content of this posting. > > -- "My name's McKenny, Mike McKenny, Warrant Officer, Solar Guard." (Tom Corbett #1 STAND BY FOR MARS p2) From - Mon Apr 07 07:29:19 1997 >From dawnliqu@fllab.chass.ncsu.edu Wed Mar 12 05:49:13 1997 Received: from fllab.chass.ncsu.edu (fllab.chass.ncsu.edu [152.1.123.61]) by cc09ss.unity.ncsu.edu (8.8.4/NS19Dec96) with ESMTP id IAA21427 for ; Wed, 12 Mar 1997 08:49:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from FLLAB/SpoolDir by fllab.chass.ncsu.edu (Mercury 1.21); 12 Mar 97 08:49:13 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by FLLAB (Mercury 1.21); 12 Mar 97 08:47:57 EST5EDT From: "Quanta Dawn-Light" To: FG@hotmail.com Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 08:47:24 EST Subject: Re: NO! vote campaign: talk.religion.bahai X-Confirm-Reading-To: "Quanta Dawn-Light" X-pmrqc: 1 Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.31 Message-ID: X-Mozilla-Status: 0014 Content-Length: 266 What is the problem? Why are you so determined? What will you accomplish? I am not being judgemental, just asking. Is it your spirit or the ego that is functioning so strongly? How can I help you? Are you not being a *FANATIC* in your own way? love, quanta From - Wed Apr 09 08:11:47 1997 >From dawnliqu@fllab.chass.ncsu.edu Wed Mar 12 05:49:13 1997 Received: from fllab.chass.ncsu.edu (fllab.chass.ncsu.edu [152.1.123.61]) by cc09ss.unity.ncsu.edu (8.8.4/NS19Dec96) with ESMTP id IAA21427 for ; Wed, 12 Mar 1997 08:49:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from FLLAB/SpoolDir by fllab.chass.ncsu.edu (Mercury 1.21); 12 Mar 97 08:49:13 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by FLLAB (Mercury 1.21); 12 Mar 97 08:47:57 EST5EDT From: "Quanta Dawn-Light" To: FG@hotmail.com Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 08:47:24 EST Subject: Re: NO! vote campaign: talk.religion.bahai X-Confirm-Reading-To: "Quanta Dawn-Light" X-pmrqc: 1 Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.31 Message-ID: X-Mozilla-Status: 0014 Content-Length: 266 What is the problem? Why are you so determined? What will you accomplish? I am not being judgemental, just asking. Is it your spirit or the ego that is functioning so strongly? How can I help you? Are you not being a *FANATIC* in your own way? love, quanta From - Thu Apr 10 08:10:19 1997 >From dawnliqu@fllab.chass.ncsu.edu Wed Mar 12 05:49:13 1997 Received: from fllab.chass.ncsu.edu (fllab.chass.ncsu.edu [152.1.123.61]) by cc09ss.unity.ncsu.edu (8.8.4/NS19Dec96) with ESMTP id IAA21427 for ; Wed, 12 Mar 1997 08:49:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from FLLAB/SpoolDir by fllab.chass.ncsu.edu (Mercury 1.21); 12 Mar 97 08:49:13 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by FLLAB (Mercury 1.21); 12 Mar 97 08:47:57 EST5EDT From: "Quanta Dawn-Light" To: FG@hotmail.com Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 08:47:24 EST Subject: Re: NO! vote campaign: talk.religion.bahai X-Confirm-Reading-To: "Quanta Dawn-Light" X-pmrqc: 1 Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.31 Message-ID: X-Mozilla-Status: 0014 Content-Length: 266 What is the problem? Why are you so determined? What will you accomplish? I am not being judgemental, just asking. Is it your spirit or the ego that is functioning so strongly? How can I help you? Are you not being a *FANATIC* in your own way? love, quanta From - Thu Apr 10 08:10:20 1997 >From rosss@u.washington.edu Wed Mar 12 07:21:53 1997 Received: from homer12.u.washington.edu (homer12.u.washington.edu [140.142.78.13]) by jason02.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW96.12/8.8.4+UW97.03) with ESMTP id HAA17670 for ; Wed, 12 Mar 1997 07:17:46 -0800 Received: from localhost (rosss@localhost) by homer12.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW96.12/8.8.4+UW97.03) with SMTP id HAA84510 for ; Wed, 12 Mar 1997 07:20:06 -0800 Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 07:20:06 -0800 (PST) From: "R. Summers" To: FG@hotmail.com Subject: Re: NO! vote campaign: talk.religion.bahai In-Reply-To: <199703121221.EAA08629@shadowfax.reference.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Mozilla-Status: 0014 Content-Length: 424 Thank you for your post, I could not agree with you more, I did vote yes. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ross K. Sapp/Summers7344 34th Ave SW 206-406-4287 OfficeSeattle, WA 98126 USA 206-663-0848 Pager206-937-4489 Fax 206-521-1904 Workrosss@u.washington.org ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From - Mon Apr 07 07:29:21 1997 >From rosss@u.washington.edu Wed Mar 12 07:21:53 1997 Received: from homer12.u.washington.edu (homer12.u.washington.edu [140.142.78.13]) by jason02.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW96.12/8.8.4+UW97.03) with ESMTP id HAA17670 for ; Wed, 12 Mar 1997 07:17:46 -0800 Received: from localhost (rosss@localhost) by homer12.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW96.12/8.8.4+UW97.03) with SMTP id HAA84510 for ; Wed, 12 Mar 1997 07:20:06 -0800 Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 07:20:06 -0800 (PST) From: "R. Summers" To: FG@hotmail.com Subject: Re: NO! vote campaign: talk.religion.bahai In-Reply-To: <199703121221.EAA08629@shadowfax.reference.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Mozilla-Status: 0014 Content-Length: 424 Thank you for your post, I could not agree with you more, I did vote yes. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ross K. Sapp/Summers7344 34th Ave SW 206-406-4287 OfficeSeattle, WA 98126 USA 206-663-0848 Pager206-937-4489 Fax 206-521-1904 Workrosss@u.washington.org ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From - Wed Apr 09 08:11:48 1997 >From rosss@u.washington.edu Wed Mar 12 07:21:53 1997 Received: from homer12.u.washington.edu (homer12.u.washington.edu [140.142.78.13]) by jason02.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW96.12/8.8.4+UW97.03) with ESMTP id HAA17670 for ; Wed, 12 Mar 1997 07:17:46 -0800 Received: from localhost (rosss@localhost) by homer12.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW96.12/8.8.4+UW97.03) with SMTP id HAA84510 for ; Wed, 12 Mar 1997 07:20:06 -0800 Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 07:20:06 -0800 (PST) From: "R. Summers" To: FG@hotmail.com Subject: Re: NO! vote campaign: talk.religion.bahai In-Reply-To: <199703121221.EAA08629@shadowfax.reference.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Mozilla-Status: 0014 Content-Length: 424 Thank you for your post, I could not agree with you more, I did vote yes. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ross K. Sapp/Summers7344 34th Ave SW 206-406-4287 OfficeSeattle, WA 98126 USA 206-663-0848 Pager206-937-4489 Fax 206-521-1904 Workrosss@u.washington.org ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From - Wed Apr 09 08:11:50 1997 >From jrcole@umich.edu Wed Mar 12 08:14:39 1997 Received: from pm114-21.dialip.mich.net by gimantis.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.8.5/2.2) id LAA28849; Wed, 12 Mar 1997 11:13:33 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199703121613.LAA28849@gimantis.rs.itd.umich.edu> Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 11:13:33 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: jrcole@j.imap.itd.umich.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: FG@hotmail.com From: jrcole@umich.edu (Juan R. I. Cole) Subject: Re: NO! vote campaign: talk.religion.bahai X-Mozilla-Status: 0014 Content-Length: 4326 Send it to Soc.Religion.Bahai. :-) cheers Juan >This appeal for NO votes was apparently posted recently to the >Bahai woman's discussion listserv. > >>Mark Towfiq (towfiq@justice.medford.ma.us) wrote: > >>Subject: RE: Pointer: CFV talk.religion.bahai > >>Dear friends, a situation which has been developing over the past few >>months has finally come to a head. >> >>As many of you may already know, the soc.religion.bahai newsgroup >>was created in the Holy Year (1992) to serve as a forum for the >>Friends to discuss the Faith on USENET and a non-threatening >>place for people investigating the Baha'i Faith to ask questions >>and receive answers. As part of its creation, we decided that >>it should be moderated, and that the Charter should spell out >>very clearly what were unacceptable types of postings. Among >>such unacceptable postings were deemed personal insults and >>attacks on individuals and religious institutions. >>Later last year, the Charter was made more explicit to exclude >>postings which undermine the Covenant. The newsgroup has been >>moderated by a set of Baha'is since its inception who, in my >>opinion, have applied the Charter and Baha'i principles to a >>high degree of fairness, and have maintained a rather good tone >>and environment. We have received numerous compliments about >>this over the years. >> >>Recently, an individual, Frederick Glaysher (I do not know if >>he is a Baha'i or not), > >I have been a member of the Bahai Faith for over 20 years. > >>has accused the moderators of >>soc.religion.bahai of "censorship", claiming that they will not >>allow his point of view to be posted there. > >I am not the only person to accuse, quite accurately, the >"moderators" of censorship. Several people have. Read the >discussion on news.groups > >>As a result, he >>has asked for the creation of a new, unmoderated forum, called >>talk.religion.bahai. The postings which Mr. Glaysher complains >>about were all rejected on the basis of tone; he wanted to >>post open insults and sarcasm, > >Where in the Bahai Writings does it state, THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT >SARCASM! An incisive literary tool for dealing with tyrants >in all ages of human history.... Despots have always feared >it revealing edge.... > >>and the moderators >>asked him to re-phrase his postings. > >"Self-censor" would be more like it.... > >>He refused, and claimed >>he was being censored, and embarked upon this campaign to >>create a new newsgroup. > >I would call it a campaign for human freedom of religious >conscience and dignity against fanatics and extremists in >the Bahai Faith like Mark Towfiq.... > >>Dear Friends, if this new newsgroup is created, in my opinion >>it will cause great confusion; there will now be two, almost >>identical fora to discuss the Faith, but one of them will allow >>any sorts of postings, including postings from Covenant-breakers. >>Besides this fact, such a newsgroup is not necessary, as there >>exist plenty of open forums on USENET (such as >>talk.relgion.misc) where Mr. Glaysher may post his opinions >>"freely". > >The points of the foregoing paragraph have been discussed fully >over the past weeks. See news.groups.... > >> >>HOW TO VOTE NO: Send email to: jjd@primenet.com >> >>With the only text of the message being: >> >> I vote NO on talk.religion.bahai >> > >It's widely considered on USEnet unethical to vote NO when >100 or more people wish to form a newsgroup on any subject. >To vote NO for ideological reasons, here clearly religious >reasons, would be a disgrace to the Bahai Faith. Are you, >Mr. Towfiq, trying to prove to the world the Bahai Faith is >full of ignorant, contemptible fanatics? You're doing a >good job of it. > >>I would be happy to provide further information or >>answer any questions about this matter. >> >>Regards, >>Mark Towfiq >> >> > >Frederick Glaysher >Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > > >-- > >Posted using Reference.COM https://www.reference.com >Browse, Search and Post Usenet and Mailing list Archive and Catalog. > >InReference, Inc. accepts no responsibility for the content of this posting. > > From - Thu Apr 10 08:10:22 1997 >From jrcole@umich.edu Wed Mar 12 08:14:39 1997 Received: from pm114-21.dialip.mich.net by gimantis.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.8.5/2.2) id LAA28849; Wed, 12 Mar 1997 11:13:33 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199703121613.LAA28849@gimantis.rs.itd.umich.edu> Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 11:13:33 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: jrcole@j.imap.itd.umich.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: FG@hotmail.com From: jrcole@umich.edu (Juan R. I. Cole) Subject: Re: NO! vote campaign: talk.religion.bahai X-Mozilla-Status: 0014 Content-Length: 4326 Send it to Soc.Religion.Bahai. :-) cheers Juan >This appeal for NO votes was apparently posted recently to the >Bahai woman's discussion listserv. > >>Mark Towfiq (towfiq@justice.medford.ma.us) wrote: > >>Subject: RE: Pointer: CFV talk.religion.bahai > >>Dear friends, a situation which has been developing over the past few >>months has finally come to a head. >> >>As many of you may already know, the soc.religion.bahai newsgroup >>was created in the Holy Year (1992) to serve as a forum for the >>Friends to discuss the Faith on USENET and a non-threatening >>place for people investigating the Baha'i Faith to ask questions >>and receive answers. As part of its creation, we decided that >>it should be moderated, and that the Charter should spell out >>very clearly what were unacceptable types of postings. Among >>such unacceptable postings were deemed personal insults and >>attacks on individuals and religious institutions. >>Later last year, the Charter was made more explicit to exclude >>postings which undermine the Covenant. The newsgroup has been >>moderated by a set of Baha'is since its inception who, in my >>opinion, have applied the Charter and Baha'i principles to a >>high degree of fairness, and have maintained a rather good tone >>and environment. We have received numerous compliments about >>this over the years. >> >>Recently, an individual, Frederick Glaysher (I do not know if >>he is a Baha'i or not), > >I have been a member of the Bahai Faith for over 20 years. > >>has accused the moderators of >>soc.religion.bahai of "censorship", claiming that they will not >>allow his point of view to be posted there. > >I am not the only person to accuse, quite accurately, the >"moderators" of censorship. Several people have. Read the >discussion on news.groups > >>As a result, he >>has asked for the creation of a new, unmoderated forum, called >>talk.religion.bahai. The postings which Mr. Glaysher complains >>about were all rejected on the basis of tone; he wanted to >>post open insults and sarcasm, > >Where in the Bahai Writings does it state, THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT >SARCASM! An incisive literary tool for dealing with tyrants >in all ages of human history.... Despots have always feared >it revealing edge.... > >>and the moderators >>asked him to re-phrase his postings. > >"Self-censor" would be more like it.... > >>He refused, and claimed >>he was being censored, and embarked upon this campaign to >>create a new newsgroup. > >I would call it a campaign for human freedom of religious >conscience and dignity against fanatics and extremists in >the Bahai Faith like Mark Towfiq.... > >>Dear Friends, if this new newsgroup is created, in my opinion >>it will cause great confusion; there will now be two, almost >>identical fora to discuss the Faith, but one of them will allow >>any sorts of postings, including postings from Covenant-breakers. >>Besides this fact, such a newsgroup is not necessary, as there >>exist plenty of open forums on USENET (such as >>talk.relgion.misc) where Mr. Glaysher may post his opinions >>"freely". > >The points of the foregoing paragraph have been discussed fully >over the past weeks. See news.groups.... > >> >>HOW TO VOTE NO: Send email to: jjd@primenet.com >> >>With the only text of the message being: >> >> I vote NO on talk.religion.bahai >> > >It's widely considered on USEnet unethical to vote NO when >100 or more people wish to form a newsgroup on any subject. >To vote NO for ideological reasons, here clearly religious >reasons, would be a disgrace to the Bahai Faith. Are you, >Mr. Towfiq, trying to prove to the world the Bahai Faith is >full of ignorant, contemptible fanatics? You're doing a >good job of it. > >>I would be happy to provide further information or >>answer any questions about this matter. >> >>Regards, >>Mark Towfiq >> >> > >Frederick Glaysher >Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > > >-- > >Posted using Reference.COM https://www.reference.com >Browse, Search and Post Usenet and Mailing list Archive and Catalog. > >InReference, Inc. accepts no responsibility for the content of this posting. > > From - Mon Apr 07 07:29:23 1997 >From jrcole@umich.edu Wed Mar 12 08:14:39 1997 Received: from pm114-21.dialip.mich.net by gimantis.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.8.5/2.2) id LAA28849; Wed, 12 Mar 1997 11:13:33 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199703121613.LAA28849@gimantis.rs.itd.umich.edu> Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 11:13:33 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: jrcole@j.imap.itd.umich.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: FG@hotmail.com From: jrcole@umich.edu (Juan R. I. Cole) Subject: Re: NO! vote campaign: talk.religion.bahai X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Content-Length: 4326 Send it to Soc.Religion.Bahai. :-) cheers Juan >This appeal for NO votes was apparently posted recently to the >Bahai woman's discussion listserv. > >>Mark Towfiq (towfiq@justice.medford.ma.us) wrote: > >>Subject: RE: Pointer: CFV talk.religion.bahai > >>Dear friends, a situation which has been developing over the past few >>months has finally come to a head. >> >>As many of you may already know, the soc.religion.bahai newsgroup >>was created in the Holy Year (1992) to serve as a forum for the >>Friends to discuss the Faith on USENET and a non-threatening >>place for people investigating the Baha'i Faith to ask questions >>and receive answers. As part of its creation, we decided that >>it should be moderated, and that the Charter should spell out >>very clearly what were unacceptable types of postings. Among >>such unacceptable postings were deemed personal insults and >>attacks on individuals and religious institutions. >>Later last year, the Charter was made more explicit to exclude >>postings which undermine the Covenant. The newsgroup has been >>moderated by a set of Baha'is since its inception who, in my >>opinion, have applied the Charter and Baha'i principles to a >>high degree of fairness, and have maintained a rather good tone >>and environment. We have received numerous compliments about >>this over the years. >> >>Recently, an individual, Frederick Glaysher (I do not know if >>he is a Baha'i or not), > >I have been a member of the Bahai Faith for over 20 years. > >>has accused the moderators of >>soc.religion.bahai of "censorship", claiming that they will not >>allow his point of view to be posted there. > >I am not the only person to accuse, quite accurately, the >"moderators" of censorship. Several people have. Read the >discussion on news.groups > >>As a result, he >>has asked for the creation of a new, unmoderated forum, called >>talk.religion.bahai. The postings which Mr. Glaysher complains >>about were all rejected on the basis of tone; he wanted to >>post open insults and sarcasm, > >Where in the Bahai Writings does it state, THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT >SARCASM! An incisive literary tool for dealing with tyrants >in all ages of human history.... Despots have always feared >it revealing edge.... > >>and the moderators >>asked him to re-phrase his postings. > >"Self-censor" would be more like it.... > >>He refused, and claimed >>he was being censored, and embarked upon this campaign to >>create a new newsgroup. > >I would call it a campaign for human freedom of religious >conscience and dignity against fanatics and extremists in >the Bahai Faith like Mark Towfiq.... > >>Dear Friends, if this new newsgroup is created, in my opinion >>it will cause great confusion; there will now be two, almost >>identical fora to discuss the Faith, but one of them will allow >>any sorts of postings, including postings from Covenant-breakers. >>Besides this fact, such a newsgroup is not necessary, as there >>exist plenty of open forums on USENET (such as >>talk.relgion.misc) where Mr. Glaysher may post his opinions >>"freely". > >The points of the foregoing paragraph have been discussed fully >over the past weeks. See news.groups.... > >> >>HOW TO VOTE NO: Send email to: jjd@primenet.com >> >>With the only text of the message being: >> >> I vote NO on talk.religion.bahai >> > >It's widely considered on USEnet unethical to vote NO when >100 or more people wish to form a newsgroup on any subject. >To vote NO for ideological reasons, here clearly religious >reasons, would be a disgrace to the Bahai Faith. Are you, >Mr. Towfiq, trying to prove to the world the Bahai Faith is >full of ignorant, contemptible fanatics? You're doing a >good job of it. > >>I would be happy to provide further information or >>answer any questions about this matter. >> >>Regards, >>Mark Towfiq >> >> > >Frederick Glaysher >Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > > >-- > >Posted using Reference.COM https://www.reference.com >Browse, Search and Post Usenet and Mailing list Archive and Catalog. > >InReference, Inc. accepts no responsibility for the content of this posting. > > From - Wed Apr 09 08:12:02 1997 >From mbkafes@bestweb.net Wed Mar 12 19:41:05 1997 Received: from jmkafes (dialin-69.croton.bestweb.net [208.197.0.173]) by okeefe.bestweb.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA25003 for ; Wed, 12 Mar 1997 22:40:17 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199703130340.WAA25003@okeefe.bestweb.net> From: "Milissa Boyer Kafes" To: Subject: Re: NO! vote campaign: talk.religion.bahai Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 20:49:38 -0500 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Content-Length: 5565 Hi Mr Glaysher-- Just wanted to let you know that I am a Baha'i who has voted YES for your proposal to have an unmoderated newsgroup. I hope it succeeds, as I am looking forward to it. For the life of me, I don't understand why some Baha'is feel threatened by this. If they don't like the new newsgroup, then they can just choose to not participate. I also hope that the newsgroup will maintain a dignified, mature operation. Since we are all adults, there is no reason that it won't!!! I have seen some other unmoderated newsgroups that have degenerated into verbal fights with bad language and personal attacks.....so I hope this won't happen to the new group, as that is what some Baha'is are expecting and, unfortunately, looking forward to, as they want this group to fail. I, for sure, will be someone who will try not to let this happen! Good luck and thanks for hanging in there. With Baha'i love Milissa Boyer Kafes mbkafes@bestweb.net ---------- > From: FG@hotmail.com > To: > Cc: jrcole@umich.edu; talisman@umich.edu; irfan@umich.edu > Subject: NO! vote campaign: talk.religion.bahai > Date: Wednesday, March 12, 1997 7:21 AM > > This appeal for NO votes was apparently posted recently to the > Bahai woman's discussion listserv. > > >Mark Towfiq (towfiq@justice.medford.ma.us) wrote: > > >Subject: RE: Pointer: CFV talk.religion.bahai > > >Dear friends, a situation which has been developing over the past few > >months has finally come to a head. > > > >As many of you may already know, the soc.religion.bahai newsgroup > >was created in the Holy Year (1992) to serve as a forum for the > >Friends to discuss the Faith on USENET and a non-threatening > >place for people investigating the Baha'i Faith to ask questions > >and receive answers. As part of its creation, we decided that > >it should be moderated, and that the Charter should spell out > >very clearly what were unacceptable types of postings. Among > >such unacceptable postings were deemed personal insults and > >attacks on individuals and religious institutions. > >Later last year, the Charter was made more explicit to exclude > >postings which undermine the Covenant. The newsgroup has been > >moderated by a set of Baha'is since its inception who, in my > >opinion, have applied the Charter and Baha'i principles to a > >high degree of fairness, and have maintained a rather good tone > >and environment. We have received numerous compliments about > >this over the years. > > > >Recently, an individual, Frederick Glaysher (I do not know if > >he is a Baha'i or not), > > I have been a member of the Bahai Faith for over 20 years. > > >has accused the moderators of > >soc.religion.bahai of "censorship", claiming that they will not > >allow his point of view to be posted there. > > I am not the only person to accuse, quite accurately, the > "moderators" of censorship. Several people have. Read the > discussion on news.groups > > >As a result, he > >has asked for the creation of a new, unmoderated forum, called > >talk.religion.bahai. The postings which Mr. Glaysher complains > >about were all rejected on the basis of tone; he wanted to > >post open insults and sarcasm, > > Where in the Bahai Writings does it state, THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT > SARCASM! An incisive literary tool for dealing with tyrants > in all ages of human history.... Despots have always feared > it revealing edge.... > > >and the moderators > >asked him to re-phrase his postings. > > "Self-censor" would be more like it.... > > >He refused, and claimed > >he was being censored, and embarked upon this campaign to > >create a new newsgroup. > > I would call it a campaign for human freedom of religious > conscience and dignity against fanatics and extremists in > the Bahai Faith like Mark Towfiq.... > > >Dear Friends, if this new newsgroup is created, in my opinion > >it will cause great confusion; there will now be two, almost > >identical fora to discuss the Faith, but one of them will allow > >any sorts of postings, including postings from Covenant-breakers. > >Besides this fact, such a newsgroup is not necessary, as there > >exist plenty of open forums on USENET (such as > >talk.relgion.misc) where Mr. Glaysher may post his opinions > >"freely". > > The points of the foregoing paragraph have been discussed fully > over the past weeks. See news.groups.... > > > > >HOW TO VOTE NO: Send email to: jjd@primenet.com > > > >With the only text of the message being: > > > > I vote NO on talk.religion.bahai > > > > It's widely considered on USEnet unethical to vote NO when > 100 or more people wish to form a newsgroup on any subject. > To vote NO for ideological reasons, here clearly religious > reasons, would be a disgrace to the Bahai Faith. Are you, > Mr. Towfiq, trying to prove to the world the Bahai Faith is > full of ignorant, contemptible fanatics? You're doing a > good job of it. > > >I would be happy to provide further information or > >answer any questions about this matter. > > > >Regards, > >Mark Towfiq > > > > > > Frederick Glaysher > Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > > > -- > > Posted using Reference.COM https://www.reference.com > Browse, Search and Post Usenet and Mailing list Archive and Catalog. > > InReference, Inc. accepts no responsibility for the content of this posting. From - Mon Apr 07 07:29:36 1997 >From mbkafes@bestweb.net Wed Mar 12 19:41:05 1997 Received: from jmkafes (dialin-69.croton.bestweb.net [208.197.0.173]) by okeefe.bestweb.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA25003 for ; Wed, 12 Mar 1997 22:40:17 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199703130340.WAA25003@okeefe.bestweb.net> From: "Milissa Boyer Kafes" To: Subject: Re: NO! vote campaign: talk.religion.bahai Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 20:49:38 -0500 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0014 Content-Length: 5565 Hi Mr Glaysher-- Just wanted to let you know that I am a Baha'i who has voted YES for your proposal to have an unmoderated newsgroup. I hope it succeeds, as I am looking forward to it. For the life of me, I don't understand why some Baha'is feel threatened by this. If they don't like the new newsgroup, then they can just choose to not participate. I also hope that the newsgroup will maintain a dignified, mature operation. Since we are all adults, there is no reason that it won't!!! I have seen some other unmoderated newsgroups that have degenerated into verbal fights with bad language and personal attacks.....so I hope this won't happen to the new group, as that is what some Baha'is are expecting and, unfortunately, looking forward to, as they want this group to fail. I, for sure, will be someone who will try not to let this happen! Good luck and thanks for hanging in there. With Baha'i love Milissa Boyer Kafes mbkafes@bestweb.net ---------- > From: FG@hotmail.com > To: > Cc: jrcole@umich.edu; talisman@umich.edu; irfan@umich.edu > Subject: NO! vote campaign: talk.religion.bahai > Date: Wednesday, March 12, 1997 7:21 AM > > This appeal for NO votes was apparently posted recently to the > Bahai woman's discussion listserv. > > >Mark Towfiq (towfiq@justice.medford.ma.us) wrote: > > >Subject: RE: Pointer: CFV talk.religion.bahai > > >Dear friends, a situation which has been developing over the past few > >months has finally come to a head. > > > >As many of you may already know, the soc.religion.bahai newsgroup > >was created in the Holy Year (1992) to serve as a forum for the > >Friends to discuss the Faith on USENET and a non-threatening > >place for people investigating the Baha'i Faith to ask questions > >and receive answers. As part of its creation, we decided that > >it should be moderated, and that the Charter should spell out > >very clearly what were unacceptable types of postings. Among > >such unacceptable postings were deemed personal insults and > >attacks on individuals and religious institutions. > >Later last year, the Charter was made more explicit to exclude > >postings which undermine the Covenant. The newsgroup has been > >moderated by a set of Baha'is since its inception who, in my > >opinion, have applied the Charter and Baha'i principles to a > >high degree of fairness, and have maintained a rather good tone > >and environment. We have received numerous compliments about > >this over the years. > > > >Recently, an individual, Frederick Glaysher (I do not know if > >he is a Baha'i or not), > > I have been a member of the Bahai Faith for over 20 years. > > >has accused the moderators of > >soc.religion.bahai of "censorship", claiming that they will not > >allow his point of view to be posted there. > > I am not the only person to accuse, quite accurately, the > "moderators" of censorship. Several people have. Read the > discussion on news.groups > > >As a result, he > >has asked for the creation of a new, unmoderated forum, called > >talk.religion.bahai. The postings which Mr. Glaysher complains > >about were all rejected on the basis of tone; he wanted to > >post open insults and sarcasm, > > Where in the Bahai Writings does it state, THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT > SARCASM! An incisive literary tool for dealing with tyrants > in all ages of human history.... Despots have always feared > it revealing edge.... > > >and the moderators > >asked him to re-phrase his postings. > > "Self-censor" would be more like it.... > > >He refused, and claimed > >he was being censored, and embarked upon this campaign to > >create a new newsgroup. > > I would call it a campaign for human freedom of religious > conscience and dignity against fanatics and extremists in > the Bahai Faith like Mark Towfiq.... > > >Dear Friends, if this new newsgroup is created, in my opinion > >it will cause great confusion; there will now be two, almost > >identical fora to discuss the Faith, but one of them will allow > >any sorts of postings, including postings from Covenant-breakers. > >Besides this fact, such a newsgroup is not necessary, as there > >exist plenty of open forums on USENET (such as > >talk.relgion.misc) where Mr. Glaysher may post his opinions > >"freely". > > The points of the foregoing paragraph have been discussed fully > over the past weeks. See news.groups.... > > > > >HOW TO VOTE NO: Send email to: jjd@primenet.com > > > >With the only text of the message being: > > > > I vote NO on talk.religion.bahai > > > > It's widely considered on USEnet unethical to vote NO when > 100 or more people wish to form a newsgroup on any subject. > To vote NO for ideological reasons, here clearly religious > reasons, would be a disgrace to the Bahai Faith. Are you, > Mr. Towfiq, trying to prove to the world the Bahai Faith is > full of ignorant, contemptible fanatics? You're doing a > good job of it. > > >I would be happy to provide further information or > >answer any questions about this matter. > > > >Regards, > >Mark Towfiq > > > > > > Frederick Glaysher > Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > > > -- > > Posted using Reference.COM https://www.reference.com > Browse, Search and Post Usenet and Mailing list Archive and Catalog. > > InReference, Inc. accepts no responsibility for the content of this posting. From - Thu Apr 10 08:10:35 1997 >From mbkafes@bestweb.net Wed Mar 12 19:41:05 1997 Received: from jmkafes (dialin-69.croton.bestweb.net [208.197.0.173]) by okeefe.bestweb.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA25003 for ; Wed, 12 Mar 1997 22:40:17 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199703130340.WAA25003@okeefe.bestweb.net> From: "Milissa Boyer Kafes" To: Subject: Re: NO! vote campaign: talk.religion.bahai Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 20:49:38 -0500 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0014 Content-Length: 5565 Hi Mr Glaysher-- Just wanted to let you know that I am a Baha'i who has voted YES for your proposal to have an unmoderated newsgroup. I hope it succeeds, as I am looking forward to it. For the life of me, I don't understand why some Baha'is feel threatened by this. If they don't like the new newsgroup, then they can just choose to not participate. I also hope that the newsgroup will maintain a dignified, mature operation. Since we are all adults, there is no reason that it won't!!! I have seen some other unmoderated newsgroups that have degenerated into verbal fights with bad language and personal attacks.....so I hope this won't happen to the new group, as that is what some Baha'is are expecting and, unfortunately, looking forward to, as they want this group to fail. I, for sure, will be someone who will try not to let this happen! Good luck and thanks for hanging in there. With Baha'i love Milissa Boyer Kafes mbkafes@bestweb.net ---------- > From: FG@hotmail.com > To: > Cc: jrcole@umich.edu; talisman@umich.edu; irfan@umich.edu > Subject: NO! vote campaign: talk.religion.bahai > Date: Wednesday, March 12, 1997 7:21 AM > > This appeal for NO votes was apparently posted recently to the > Bahai woman's discussion listserv. > > >Mark Towfiq (towfiq@justice.medford.ma.us) wrote: > > >Subject: RE: Pointer: CFV talk.religion.bahai > > >Dear friends, a situation which has been developing over the past few > >months has finally come to a head. > > > >As many of you may already know, the soc.religion.bahai newsgroup > >was created in the Holy Year (1992) to serve as a forum for the > >Friends to discuss the Faith on USENET and a non-threatening > >place for people investigating the Baha'i Faith to ask questions > >and receive answers. As part of its creation, we decided that > >it should be moderated, and that the Charter should spell out > >very clearly what were unacceptable types of postings. Among > >such unacceptable postings were deemed personal insults and > >attacks on individuals and religious institutions. > >Later last year, the Charter was made more explicit to exclude > >postings which undermine the Covenant. The newsgroup has been > >moderated by a set of Baha'is since its inception who, in my > >opinion, have applied the Charter and Baha'i principles to a > >high degree of fairness, and have maintained a rather good tone > >and environment. We have received numerous compliments about > >this over the years. > > > >Recently, an individual, Frederick Glaysher (I do not know if > >he is a Baha'i or not), > > I have been a member of the Bahai Faith for over 20 years. > > >has accused the moderators of > >soc.religion.bahai of "censorship", claiming that they will not > >allow his point of view to be posted there. > > I am not the only person to accuse, quite accurately, the > "moderators" of censorship. Several people have. Read the > discussion on news.groups > > >As a result, he > >has asked for the creation of a new, unmoderated forum, called > >talk.religion.bahai. The postings which Mr. Glaysher complains > >about were all rejected on the basis of tone; he wanted to > >post open insults and sarcasm, > > Where in the Bahai Writings does it state, THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT > SARCASM! An incisive literary tool for dealing with tyrants > in all ages of human history.... Despots have always feared > it revealing edge.... > > >and the moderators > >asked him to re-phrase his postings. > > "Self-censor" would be more like it.... > > >He refused, and claimed > >he was being censored, and embarked upon this campaign to > >create a new newsgroup. > > I would call it a campaign for human freedom of religious > conscience and dignity against fanatics and extremists in > the Bahai Faith like Mark Towfiq.... > > >Dear Friends, if this new newsgroup is created, in my opinion > >it will cause great confusion; there will now be two, almost > >identical fora to discuss the Faith, but one of them will allow > >any sorts of postings, including postings from Covenant-breakers. > >Besides this fact, such a newsgroup is not necessary, as there > >exist plenty of open forums on USENET (such as > >talk.relgion.misc) where Mr. Glaysher may post his opinions > >"freely". > > The points of the foregoing paragraph have been discussed fully > over the past weeks. See news.groups.... > > > > >HOW TO VOTE NO: Send email to: jjd@primenet.com > > > >With the only text of the message being: > > > > I vote NO on talk.religion.bahai > > > > It's widely considered on USEnet unethical to vote NO when > 100 or more people wish to form a newsgroup on any subject. > To vote NO for ideological reasons, here clearly religious > reasons, would be a disgrace to the Bahai Faith. Are you, > Mr. Towfiq, trying to prove to the world the Bahai Faith is > full of ignorant, contemptible fanatics? You're doing a > good job of it. > > >I would be happy to provide further information or > >answer any questions about this matter. > > > >Regards, > >Mark Towfiq > > > > > > Frederick Glaysher > Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > > > -- > > Posted using Reference.COM https://www.reference.com > Browse, Search and Post Usenet and Mailing list Archive and Catalog. > > InReference, Inc. accepts no responsibility for the content of this posting. From - Thu Apr 10 08:10:28 1997 >From boatright@cjnetworks.com Wed Mar 12 18:40:53 1997 Received: from rickboat (Port266.cjnetworks.com [199.240.71.42]) by topeka.cjnetworks.com (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id UAA05866; Wed, 12 Mar 1997 20:18:51 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199703130218.UAA05866@topeka.cjnetworks.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Rick Boatright" Organization: Topeka Business Computers To: FG@hotmail.com, cbstone@phoenix.princeton.edu, bill@netagw.com, jjd@primenet.com Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 20:06:34 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: NO! vote campaign: talk.religion.bahai Reply-to: boatright@cjnetworks.com Priority: normal In-reply-to: <5g66lv$5ur$1@bilbo.reference.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.50) X-Mozilla-Status: 0014 Content-Length: 5178 Dear Frederick, Again I must return this submission un posted to you. It is not within charter, and we have clearly directed this discussion elsewhere. It may be of some interest to you that the moderators of soc.religion.bahai where the first to report this to the vote taker, and quickly took action to avoid contamination of the vote by posting a clear explanation of voting procedures to the same list. In any event, the process will soon be over. My best wishes. Rick Boatright co-moderator soc.religion.bahai > To: soc-religion-bahai@moderators.uu.net > From: FG@hotmail.com > Subject: NO! vote campaign: talk.religion.bahai > Date: 12 Mar 1997 12:13:51 GMT > Organization: Reference.Com Posting Service > Cc: cbstone@phoenix.princeton.edu, bill@netagw.com, jjd@primenet.com > This appeal for NO votes was apparently posted recently to the Bahai > woman's discussion listserv. > > >Mark Towfiq (towfiq@justice.medford.ma.us) wrote: > > >Subject: RE: Pointer: CFV talk.religion.bahai > > >Dear friends, a situation which has been developing over the past > >few months has finally come to a head. > > > >As many of you may already know, the soc.religion.bahai newsgroup > >was created in the Holy Year (1992) to serve as a forum for the > >Friends to discuss the Faith on USENET and a non-threatening place > >for people investigating the Baha'i Faith to ask questions and > >receive answers. As part of its creation, we decided that it > >should be moderated, and that the Charter should spell out very > >clearly what were unacceptable types of postings. Among such > >unacceptable postings were deemed personal insults and attacks on > >individuals and religious institutions. Later last year, the > >Charter was made more explicit to exclude postings which undermine > >the Covenant. The newsgroup has been moderated by a set of Baha'is > >since its inception who, in my opinion, have applied the Charter > >and Baha'i principles to a high degree of fairness, and have > >maintained a rather good tone and environment. We have received > >numerous compliments about this over the years. > > > >Recently, an individual, Frederick Glaysher (I do not know if he is > >a Baha'i or not), > > I have been a member of the Bahai Faith for over 20 years. > > >has accused the moderators of > >soc.religion.bahai of "censorship", claiming that they will not > >allow his point of view to be posted there. > > I am not the only person to accuse, quitely accurately, the > "moderators" of censorship. Several people have. Read the > discussion on news.groups > > >As a result, he > >has asked for the creation of a new, unmoderated forum, called > >talk.religion.bahai. The postings which Mr. Glaysher complains > >about were all rejected on the basis of tone; he wanted to post > >open insults and sarcasm, > > Where in the Bahai Writings does it state, THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT > SARCASM! An incisive literary tool for dealing with tyrants in all > ages of human history.... Despots have always feared it.... > > >and the moderators > >asked him to re-phrase his postings. > > "Self-censor" would be more like it.... > > >He refused, and claimed > >he was being censored, and embarked upon this campaign to > >create a new newsgroup. > > I would call it a campaign for human freedom of religious > conscience and dignity against fanatics and extremists in > the Bahai Faith like Mark Towfiq.... > > >Dear Friends, if this new newsgroup is created, in my opinion it > >will cause great confusion; there will now be two, almost identical > >fora to discuss the Faith, but one of them will allow any sorts of > >postings, including postings from Covenant-breakers. Besides this > >fact, such a newsgroup is not necessary, as there exist plenty of > >open forums on USENET (such as talk.relgion.misc) where Mr. > >Glaysher may post his opinions "freely". > > The points of the foregoing paragraph have been discussed fully over > the past weeks. See news.groups.... > > > > >HOW TO VOTE NO: Send email to: jjd@primenet.com > > > >With the only text of the message being: > > > > I vote NO on talk.religion.bahai > > > > It's widely considered on USEnet unethical to vote NO when > 100 or more people wish to form a newsgroup on any subject. > To vote NO for ideological reasons, here clearly religious > reasons, would be a disgrace to the Bahai Faith. Are you, > Mr. Towfiq, trying to prove to the world the Bahai Faith is > full of ignorant fanatics? You're doing a good job of it. > > >I would be happy to provide further information or > >answer any questions about this matter. > > > >Regards, > >Mark Towfiq > > > > > > Frederick Glaysher > Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > > > -- > > Posted using Reference.COM > https://www.reference.com Browse, Search and Post Usenet and > Mailing list Archive and Catalog. > > InReference, Inc. accepts no responsibility for the content of this > posting. From - Mon Apr 07 07:29:29 1997 >From boatright@cjnetworks.com Wed Mar 12 18:40:53 1997 Received: from rickboat (Port266.cjnetworks.com [199.240.71.42]) by topeka.cjnetworks.com (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id UAA05866; Wed, 12 Mar 1997 20:18:51 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199703130218.UAA05866@topeka.cjnetworks.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Rick Boatright" Organization: Topeka Business Computers To: FG@hotmail.com, cbstone@phoenix.princeton.edu, bill@netagw.com, jjd@primenet.com Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 20:06:34 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: NO! vote campaign: talk.religion.bahai Reply-to: boatright@cjnetworks.com Priority: normal In-reply-to: <5g66lv$5ur$1@bilbo.reference.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.50) X-Mozilla-Status: 0014 Content-Length: 5178 Dear Frederick, Again I must return this submission un posted to you. It is not within charter, and we have clearly directed this discussion elsewhere. It may be of some interest to you that the moderators of soc.religion.bahai where the first to report this to the vote taker, and quickly took action to avoid contamination of the vote by posting a clear explanation of voting procedures to the same list. In any event, the process will soon be over. My best wishes. Rick Boatright co-moderator soc.religion.bahai > To: soc-religion-bahai@moderators.uu.net > From: FG@hotmail.com > Subject: NO! vote campaign: talk.religion.bahai > Date: 12 Mar 1997 12:13:51 GMT > Organization: Reference.Com Posting Service > Cc: cbstone@phoenix.princeton.edu, bill@netagw.com, jjd@primenet.com > This appeal for NO votes was apparently posted recently to the Bahai > woman's discussion listserv. > > >Mark Towfiq (towfiq@justice.medford.ma.us) wrote: > > >Subject: RE: Pointer: CFV talk.religion.bahai > > >Dear friends, a situation which has been developing over the past > >few months has finally come to a head. > > > >As many of you may already know, the soc.religion.bahai newsgroup > >was created in the Holy Year (1992) to serve as a forum for the > >Friends to discuss the Faith on USENET and a non-threatening place > >for people investigating the Baha'i Faith to ask questions and > >receive answers. As part of its creation, we decided that it > >should be moderated, and that the Charter should spell out very > >clearly what were unacceptable types of postings. Among such > >unacceptable postings were deemed personal insults and attacks on > >individuals and religious institutions. Later last year, the > >Charter was made more explicit to exclude postings which undermine > >the Covenant. The newsgroup has been moderated by a set of Baha'is > >since its inception who, in my opinion, have applied the Charter > >and Baha'i principles to a high degree of fairness, and have > >maintained a rather good tone and environment. We have received > >numerous compliments about this over the years. > > > >Recently, an individual, Frederick Glaysher (I do not know if he is > >a Baha'i or not), > > I have been a member of the Bahai Faith for over 20 years. > > >has accused the moderators of > >soc.religion.bahai of "censorship", claiming that they will not > >allow his point of view to be posted there. > > I am not the only person to accuse, quitely accurately, the > "moderators" of censorship. Several people have. Read the > discussion on news.groups > > >As a result, he > >has asked for the creation of a new, unmoderated forum, called > >talk.religion.bahai. The postings which Mr. Glaysher complains > >about were all rejected on the basis of tone; he wanted to post > >open insults and sarcasm, > > Where in the Bahai Writings does it state, THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT > SARCASM! An incisive literary tool for dealing with tyrants in all > ages of human history.... Despots have always feared it.... > > >and the moderators > >asked him to re-phrase his postings. > > "Self-censor" would be more like it.... > > >He refused, and claimed > >he was being censored, and embarked upon this campaign to > >create a new newsgroup. > > I would call it a campaign for human freedom of religious > conscience and dignity against fanatics and extremists in > the Bahai Faith like Mark Towfiq.... > > >Dear Friends, if this new newsgroup is created, in my opinion it > >will cause great confusion; there will now be two, almost identical > >fora to discuss the Faith, but one of them will allow any sorts of > >postings, including postings from Covenant-breakers. Besides this > >fact, such a newsgroup is not necessary, as there exist plenty of > >open forums on USENET (such as talk.relgion.misc) where Mr. > >Glaysher may post his opinions "freely". > > The points of the foregoing paragraph have been discussed fully over > the past weeks. See news.groups.... > > > > >HOW TO VOTE NO: Send email to: jjd@primenet.com > > > >With the only text of the message being: > > > > I vote NO on talk.religion.bahai > > > > It's widely considered on USEnet unethical to vote NO when > 100 or more people wish to form a newsgroup on any subject. > To vote NO for ideological reasons, here clearly religious > reasons, would be a disgrace to the Bahai Faith. Are you, > Mr. Towfiq, trying to prove to the world the Bahai Faith is > full of ignorant fanatics? You're doing a good job of it. > > >I would be happy to provide further information or > >answer any questions about this matter. > > > >Regards, > >Mark Towfiq > > > > > > Frederick Glaysher > Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > > > -- > > Posted using Reference.COM > https://www.reference.com Browse, Search and Post Usenet and > Mailing list Archive and Catalog. > > InReference, Inc. accepts no responsibility for the content of this > posting. From - Wed Apr 09 08:11:56 1997 >From boatright@cjnetworks.com Wed Mar 12 18:40:53 1997 Received: from rickboat (Port266.cjnetworks.com [199.240.71.42]) by topeka.cjnetworks.com (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id UAA05866; Wed, 12 Mar 1997 20:18:51 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199703130218.UAA05866@topeka.cjnetworks.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Rick Boatright" Organization: Topeka Business Computers To: FG@hotmail.com, cbstone@phoenix.princeton.edu, bill@netagw.com, jjd@primenet.com Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 20:06:34 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: NO! vote campaign: talk.religion.bahai Reply-to: boatright@cjnetworks.com Priority: normal In-reply-to: <5g66lv$5ur$1@bilbo.reference.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.50) X-Mozilla-Status: 0014 Content-Length: 5178 Dear Frederick, Again I must return this submission un posted to you. It is not within charter, and we have clearly directed this discussion elsewhere. It may be of some interest to you that the moderators of soc.religion.bahai where the first to report this to the vote taker, and quickly took action to avoid contamination of the vote by posting a clear explanation of voting procedures to the same list. In any event, the process will soon be over. My best wishes. Rick Boatright co-moderator soc.religion.bahai > To: soc-religion-bahai@moderators.uu.net > From: FG@hotmail.com > Subject: NO! vote campaign: talk.religion.bahai > Date: 12 Mar 1997 12:13:51 GMT > Organization: Reference.Com Posting Service > Cc: cbstone@phoenix.princeton.edu, bill@netagw.com, jjd@primenet.com > This appeal for NO votes was apparently posted recently to the Bahai > woman's discussion listserv. > > >Mark Towfiq (towfiq@justice.medford.ma.us) wrote: > > >Subject: RE: Pointer: CFV talk.religion.bahai > > >Dear friends, a situation which has been developing over the past > >few months has finally come to a head. > > > >As many of you may already know, the soc.religion.bahai newsgroup > >was created in the Holy Year (1992) to serve as a forum for the > >Friends to discuss the Faith on USENET and a non-threatening place > >for people investigating the Baha'i Faith to ask questions and > >receive answers. As part of its creation, we decided that it > >should be moderated, and that the Charter should spell out very > >clearly what were unacceptable types of postings. Among such > >unacceptable postings were deemed personal insults and attacks on > >individuals and religious institutions. Later last year, the > >Charter was made more explicit to exclude postings which undermine > >the Covenant. The newsgroup has been moderated by a set of Baha'is > >since its inception who, in my opinion, have applied the Charter > >and Baha'i principles to a high degree of fairness, and have > >maintained a rather good tone and environment. We have received > >numerous compliments about this over the years. > > > >Recently, an individual, Frederick Glaysher (I do not know if he is > >a Baha'i or not), > > I have been a member of the Bahai Faith for over 20 years. > > >has accused the moderators of > >soc.religion.bahai of "censorship", claiming that they will not > >allow his point of view to be posted there. > > I am not the only person to accuse, quitely accurately, the > "moderators" of censorship. Several people have. Read the > discussion on news.groups > > >As a result, he > >has asked for the creation of a new, unmoderated forum, called > >talk.religion.bahai. The postings which Mr. Glaysher complains > >about were all rejected on the basis of tone; he wanted to post > >open insults and sarcasm, > > Where in the Bahai Writings does it state, THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT > SARCASM! An incisive literary tool for dealing with tyrants in all > ages of human history.... Despots have always feared it.... > > >and the moderators > >asked him to re-phrase his postings. > > "Self-censor" would be more like it.... > > >He refused, and claimed > >he was being censored, and embarked upon this campaign to > >create a new newsgroup. > > I would call it a campaign for human freedom of religious > conscience and dignity against fanatics and extremists in > the Bahai Faith like Mark Towfiq.... > > >Dear Friends, if this new newsgroup is created, in my opinion it > >will cause great confusion; there will now be two, almost identical > >fora to discuss the Faith, but one of them will allow any sorts of > >postings, including postings from Covenant-breakers. Besides this > >fact, such a newsgroup is not necessary, as there exist plenty of > >open forums on USENET (such as talk.relgion.misc) where Mr. > >Glaysher may post his opinions "freely". > > The points of the foregoing paragraph have been discussed fully over > the past weeks. See news.groups.... > > > > >HOW TO VOTE NO: Send email to: jjd@primenet.com > > > >With the only text of the message being: > > > > I vote NO on talk.religion.bahai > > > > It's widely considered on USEnet unethical to vote NO when > 100 or more people wish to form a newsgroup on any subject. > To vote NO for ideological reasons, here clearly religious > reasons, would be a disgrace to the Bahai Faith. Are you, > Mr. Towfiq, trying to prove to the world the Bahai Faith is > full of ignorant fanatics? You're doing a good job of it. > > >I would be happy to provide further information or > >answer any questions about this matter. > > > >Regards, > >Mark Towfiq > > > > > > Frederick Glaysher > Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > > > -- > > Posted using Reference.COM > https://www.reference.com Browse, Search and Post Usenet and > Mailing list Archive and Catalog. > > InReference, Inc. accepts no responsibility for the content of this > posting. From - Tue Apr 08 07:20:21 1997 >From positive@marsweb.com Sun Mar 9 20:42:50 1997 Received: from default ([205.226.97.187]) by mail.marsweb.com (post.office MTA v2.0 0813 ID# 0-18319) with SMTP id AAA146; Sun, 9 Mar 1997 21:43:15 -0700 Message-ID: <3323941C.67F9@marsweb.com> Date: Sun, 09 Mar 1997 21:54:52 -0700 From: positive@marsweb.com (Dan Bailiff) Reply-To: positive@marsweb.com Organization: M@RSWeb-Internet Services Montana X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: FG@hotmail.com CC: positive@marsweb.com Subject: one vote per person Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0004 Content-Length: 221 Dear Frederick: It says one vote per person, but there are two of us at positive. Do you mean one vote per email address? Or else, how would you monitor? Thank you. Anita Coryell editor, Friends Newsletter From - Mon Apr 07 07:28:53 1997 >From positive@marsweb.com Sun Mar 9 20:42:50 1997 Received: from default ([205.226.97.187]) by mail.marsweb.com (post.office MTA v2.0 0813 ID# 0-18319) with SMTP id AAA146; Sun, 9 Mar 1997 21:43:15 -0700 Message-ID: <3323941C.67F9@marsweb.com> Date: Sun, 09 Mar 1997 21:54:52 -0700 From: positive@marsweb.com (Dan Bailiff) Reply-To: positive@marsweb.com Organization: M@RSWeb-Internet Services Montana X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: FG@hotmail.com CC: positive@marsweb.com Subject: one vote per person Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 221 Dear Frederick: It says one vote per person, but there are two of us at positive. Do you mean one vote per email address? Or else, how would you monitor? Thank you. Anita Coryell editor, Friends Newsletter From - Mon Feb 10 06:07:16 1997 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.47) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Mon, 10 Feb 1997 05:22:32 -0500 Message-ID: <32FEF884.56FF@moa.net> Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 05:29:24 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Graham Sorenson Subject: Ooops! 10-19 twice; here's 1-9, 10-19 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------B22101EF4E" X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 78120 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------B22101EF4E Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit delete the earlier send if you like. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA --------------B22101EF4E Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="srb1-9.txt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="srb1-9.txt" >From - Thu Nov 07 16:39:58 1996 Message-ID: <3282572E.2005@moa.net> Date: Thu, 07 Nov 1996 16:39:58 -0500 From: <@moa.net> Organization: X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Richard C. Detweiler" Subject: Re: statement of principles part 1 References: <199611071911.MAA13396@primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Richard C. Detweiler wrote: > > Dear Friend, > > Thank you for your submission to soc.religion.bahai. > > I am returningthis to you for editting. I cannot allow the blanket > statements: I refuse to edit my post in any way whatsoever. Your role as a moderator is not to be a fascist and stunt the serious exchange of ideas. Incidentally, "editting" is spelt with one "t." > > > It seems to me the growth of the Faith has been perhaps hopelessly stunted by > > the Iranian Baha'i influence upon the understanding of its teachings, > > especially in this regard. > > and > > > and modest possibilities of human material. One that that such cultures as that > > of Iran blithely ignore in their futile, primitive, brutal search for perfection > > and obedience. > > to be postedi to the newsgroup. As stated with no supporting information, > these statements are unfair stereotypes which could cause a lot of heat with > no new light. :-) Please either strike them or edit them to make them more > general or backed up by fact. > > Thank you for participating, > > Dick Detweiler > rdetweil@primenet.com > Co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai > > ================ Begin submitted post ========================= > > > To: soc-religion-bahai@uunet.uu.net > > Path: ppp-pm01-dy-1.ouhub.moa.net > > From: <@moa.net> > > Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai > > Subject: Re: statement of principles part 1 > > Date: Thu, 07 Nov 1996 11:08:44 -0500 > > Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A. > > Lines: 87 > > Message-ID: <3282098C.31E@moa.net> > > References: <55sp6p$q76@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> > > NNTP-Posting-Host: zeus.moa.net > > Mime-Version: 1.0 > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) > > To: karl1971@aol.com > > > > karl1971@aol.com wrote: > > > > > > > > Personally, over the years I've been incredibly disillusioned with the Bahai > > > Community. I was brainwashed to believe it meant a lot of things it > > > doesn't. To, illustrate, I can still remember going to a youth deepening > > > when I was 17 and hearing this highly respected fiery lipped ex-radical > > > ominously railing to us guys about "locker room talk" --- basically in her > > > war like ways she was trying to instill a sense of shame for thinking > > > unchaste thoughts ---- which was good in a sense ---- but believe me, the way > > > she worded herself was absolute condescending nonsense. She cleverly made it > > > sound like it was a terrible crime to get horny. --- The point being, at the > > > time, being a na ve kid, I took her way too seriously. > > > > > > > Karl, people are evil and twist and debase every political and religious form to > > their own purposes. I've witnessed this same kind of thing in the Baha'i Faith > > many, many times. Who, if they have even a modicum of honesty and perspicacity, > > hasn't? > > > > > As you know, the Bahai Faith doesn't have priests, preachers, or any > > > individuals who have the responsibility of telling people what to do, unlike > > > churches. However, from my experience I've discovered associating with > > > "Bahais" and not expecting them to play the roles of surrogate priests and > > > surrogate parish to be incredibly wishful and foolish thinking. > > > > > > > Many people are all too willing to ASSUME these roles--through election or > > otherwise makes little difference. Tainted wine in new vessels. > > > > > > > > Moreover, it is precisely this sense of distrust for people in an > > > authoritative position such as priests, that in my opinion, strikes a nerve > > > in America's character. ---- If one needs good tactics for mass enrollments > > > in the U.S., my suggestion is that we start with those aspects of the Faith > > > that appeal to those who have good reasons to distrust authority. After all, > > > isn't this distrust a tradition in this country? > > > > > > > It seems to me the growth of the Faith has been perhaps hopelessly stunted by > > the Iranian Baha'i influence upon the understanding of its teachings, > > especially in this regard. > > > > > If one needs a reason to see why its so easy for people not to be Bahais, or > > > for that matter, why it's so easy to disobey the Laws of God, look no further > > > than members of the influential Bahai Community playing surrogate priests to > > > those foolish enough to play surrogate parish ----- Which has the inevitable > > > effect of denying what's a part of life: what's worth respecting, what's > > > worth being ashamed of, and what's worth forgiving. > > > > > > > You, sir, have an Antinomian mind; you should OBEY!!!! > > > > > These roles have this effect because sooner or later a parish will wonder if > > > the priest is worth putting on a pedestal. As such, it will eventually see > > > the natural flaws in his character and not take a damn thing he says > > > seriously. Whereas with independent investigation of truth, which > > > Baha'u'llah so brilliantly condones, there are no flaws to be disillusioned > > > with. > > > > > > > In Young Goodman Brown, Hawthorne perceived it long ago: "Evil is the Nature > > of Mankind." I also recall Ecclessiates: "The heart of the sons of men is > > full of evil." > > > > > If one needs a good subject for a fireside or a deepening, I strongly > > > recommend we deepen each other on whatever it takes to psychologically break > > > whatever it is that compels us to play such roles. > > > > In Some Answered Questions, Abdul-Baha says of evil, it "continues and endures." > > Not at all an upbeat modern concept full of psychological hope. > > > > >"I have sworn eternal hostility to all forms of Tyranny against the minds > > >of man." - Thomas Jefferson > > > > >Maybe that's why the U.S. is the cradle of the Faith. What other countries > > >are founded on such principles? > > > > You make me think of James Madison in the Federalist Papers: "I never expect > > to see a perfect thing from imperfect man." An exceedingly Western, Christian, > > American notion, though all the great religions have a sense of the limitations > > and modest possibilities of human material. One that that such cultures as that > > of Iran blithely ignore in their futile, primitive, brutal search for perfection > > and obedience. > > > > Frederick Glaysher > > Rochester, Michigan, USA > > > > ================ End submitted post =========================== Date: Sat, 09 Nov 1996 17:25:32 -0500 From: <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Richard C. Detweiler" CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Bahai Community References: <199611091538.IAA03876@primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Richard C. Detweiler wrote: > > Dear Frederick, > > Please reformat and delete personal reference to moderators and > blanket attacks against groups and I would be happy to post > your remarks, > > Dick Detweiler > co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai > rdetweil@primenet.com Dear Richard: Let me make sure I understand this: Moderators, like Hitler and other fascists, are above all criticism. The Kitab-i-Oppression says so. I spelled out "SOME" though I believe the context, as well as reason, implies it. > > > Date: Sat, 09 Nov 1996 07:58:27 -0500 > > From: <@moa.net> > > Organization: > > X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) > > MIME-Version: 1.0 > > To: "Richard C. Detweiler" > > Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Bahai Community > > References: <199611071911.MAA13396@primenet.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > > Richard C. Detweiler wrote: > > > > > > Dear Friend, > > > > > > Thank you for your submission to soc.religion.bahai. > > > > > > I am returningthis to you for editting. [sic] I cannot allow the blanket > > > statements: > > > > > > > It seems to me the growth of the Faith has been perhaps hopelessly stunted by > > > > the Iranian Baha'i influence upon the understanding of its teachings, > > > > especially in this regard. > > > > > > and > > > > > > > and modest possibilities of human material. One that that such cultures as that > > > > of Iran blithely ignore in their futile, primitive, brutal search for perfection > > > > and obedience. > > > > > > to be postedi to the newsgroup. As stated with no supporting information, > > > these statements are unfair stereotypes which could cause a lot of heat with > > > no new light. :-) Please either strike them or edit them to make them more > > > general or backed up by fact. > > > > > > Thank you for participating, > > > > > > Dick Detweiler > > > rdetweil@primenet.com > > > Co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai > > > > > > ================ Begin submitted post ========================= > > > From: FG <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Richard C. Detweiler" CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Bahai Community References: <199611092303.QAA00271@primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Richard C. Detweiler wrote: > > Dear Frederick, > > I am sorry if you have a problem with moderated newsgroups. "Problem" is a derogatory characterization of my position. What I disaprove of is CENSORED newsgroups. In my last posting, I apparently hurt your feelings. But if > you would like to take part in the discussion on this groups, you need > to make sure your submittals meet the charter of the group. I am > enclosing a copy of it for your reference. Please keep it in mind > while reviewing the post in question and my comments. Again, when > it is free of personal attacks [you?] and negative comments about a whole > group of people which could find them offensive, [I qualified the obvious, i.e., what ought to go without saying.] I would be happy > to post it. My reformatting request had to do with getting rid of > the '>'s that have build up over the course of our exchange. I'm resending it then. > > Let me also reiterate that negative comments about the Faith are fine > on the newsgroup as long as they meet the charter. If you would like > to make a point that Iranian culture tends towards orthodoxy and that > that may impact the way some individuals act, that's alright. [sic] Just > make sure the comments meet the charter. [And God has enlightened you to make the decision?] If you want to say Baha'is > are a bunch of uptight, repressed, narrow-minded, religiously-conned, > non-intellectual, misguided saps, just make sure you say it with a > smile on your face, OK? This, Richard, is a generalization, one apparently you find permissible. I, however, will grant you what you refuse to grant me: The statement of an opinion without endless, absurd qualifications, IMHOs, etc. > > And one more thing, fascists like me like honey a lot better than > vinegar. If you take my meaning... > You're abusing your power. All fascists do/did. Threats stultify the exchange of ideas as much as censorship. > Your jack-booted, brown-shirted moderator friend, You're trying to turn into a joke a very serious issue. > > Dick Detweiler > co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai > rdetweil@primenet.com > > CHARTER FOR THE SOC.RELIGION.BAHAI NEWSGROUP > ============================================== I don't disagree with any of this nor did my original post. From: FG <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Richard C. Detweiler" CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Bahai Community References: <199611101525.IAA23650@primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0011 Richard C. Detweiler wrote: > > Dear Frederick, > > The following comments - as personal attacks which have no place on > this newsgroup - need to be removed before this will be submitted to > the newsgroup: > These do not constitute personal attacks but exposures of your undue interference in the content on my postings. I can understand you would prefer no one else should know about the issue. In my opinion, you're violating my constitutional freedom as an American citizen and my privilege as a Baha'i to express my conscience candidly. In both of these passages, I am taking issue with the heavy-handed editorial practice that you seem to believe is justifiable. I trust the spark of truth enough to manifest itself to allow others to speak their minds. That, to me, is a Baha'i principle, sorely neglected in your handling of my post. I believe it is legitimate use of the newsgroup to discuss the moderators' procedures for manipulating discussion. > > especially in this regard. [At the insistence of the "moderator," the best recent > > evidence of this in my experience is the censoring of this posting > > the first time I submitted it. As a pre-Reformation, or non-Reformation culture, Iran > > has the typical tendency to disallow the free exchange of opinion. IMHO, this cultural > > predilection is shared by SOME Iranian Baha'is. How could it not be?] > > and > > > [Once again forced by the CENSOR, I apparently need to point outthat > > Iran (Baha'u'llah seems to have noticed this), as a culture, does not > > value the free exchange of ideas.] > > Strike these and incorporate your parenthetical comments into the main body > of your post and I would be happy to post this to the newsgroup. > Your request to strike these is so as not to draw attention to your flawed handling of my posting. You're now merely trying to protect yourself from the possible censure you have earned. I'm not out to get YOU. Don't get paranoid. It's policy that permits ANY moderator to do what you have that concerns me. I believe that policy, in context, is worthy of discussion, indeed, essential. Your request to include my parenthetical comments constitutes another request to obscure further the real issue. Your attempt to protect yourself at the cost of silencing me. > Dick Detweiler > co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai > rdetweil@primenet.com > -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester, Michigan USA >From - Thu Nov 14 06:37:42 1996 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.44) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Wed, 13 Nov 1996 07:21:48 -0500 Message-ID: <3289BEEC.27DF@moa.net> Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 07:28:28 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Haukness CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: Reviewing and Freedom of Speech and Thought References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Another excellent example, apparently, of the abuse of your laughable little powers as a "moderator." You're interfering too much in the CONTENT of the message. John Haukness wrote: > > Dear Rick: After reviewing my message I find my tone and objectivity, is > quite more temperate and reserved than many other posts. I find > soc.religion's moderating policy to lean towards the left ideology. > > On Sun, 10 Nov 1996, Rick Boatright wrote: > > > Dear John, (and copied to Frederick) > > > > I have already asked Frederick to decrease the quote in the message > > he sent to the newsgroup and to which you are replying. Could we, > > perhaps let you two continue this in private email, or perhaps you > > both would like to prepare new summeries of your positions for the > > newsgroup? These messages with their extremely lenthy quoted > > context violate the signal-to-noise ratio that the newsgroup > > generally strives for. > > > > Rick Boatright > > co-moderator > > soc.religion.bahai > > > > > > Date: Sun, 10 Nov 1996 11:18:02 -0600 (CST) > > From: John Haukness > > To: Frederick Glaysher <@moa.net> > > Cc: soc-religion-bahai@uunet.uu.net > > Subject: Re: Reviewing and Freedom of Speech and Thought > > > > > > > > On Sun, 10 Nov 1996, Frederick Glaysher wrote: > > > > > John Haukness wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Friends: One can see me as anti-whatever they want. The writings of > > > > the Guardian make it clear to me that the american separation of Church > > > > and state is based on fear and will fade away. > > > > > > It's based on fear of the harsh realities of historical experience--often > > > bloody. The Guardian is more nuanced. > > > > And now we live in the Day that will not be followed by nite! Also, we > > as much historical episodes of bood baths as a result of secular > > behaviors so do you want also to separate the secular from the > > secular based on using the same logic? have> > As far as equating > > > > Religion and state as one, being common anti intellectual sentiment, I am > > > > familiar with a long list of Baha'i's arguing this, many who have > > > > published far more than I have- I wish people would start studying Shoghi > > > > Effendi with an open mind, and Abdul Baha's statements on education. > > > > > > > > Of course my friends William and John Hatcher have put this issue to > > > > rest, safe ground, as with their publishing record, it is hard to call > > > > them anti-intellectual. From Shoghi Effendi: "As the Baha'i > > > > Administrative Order rapidly expands throughout the world it behooves > > > > everyone associated with it to familiarize himself with its principles > > > > to understand its import and to put its precepts into practice. The > > > > divinely ordained institutions of the Local Spriityal Assembly operates > > > > at the first levels of human society and is the basic administrative unit > > > > of Bahaullah's World Order." So how are you going to separate religion > > > > from Bahaullah's World Order, an Order, Bahaullah has placed the state in? > > > > > > > > > > I made no such suggestion. > > > The suggestion of your post was that Western secularism's separation > > of church and state was good, I assummed you were applying that it still > > is necessary. > > > > > > > > > Well, John, you sure know how to ignore unpleasant facts and dispense with > > > 400 years of religious and social history triumphantly. > > > As I have said, there is no conclusive evidence that the separation of > > church and state have provided the security you are attributing, for > > the>past 400 years there are as many wars, forced famines and the like > > among church against church and state against state, Likewise being > > ignored are all the successful ventures of cooperation the past 400 > > years of religion and state; but regardless, that was then and now > > is now. What stikes me, is that with keen insight, (I would shure like > > to hear from the readers who already have noticed the following) one > > can begin to see the faint glimmers, that secular society and religious > > society are beginning to come upon, what the Hatcher's so elequantly > > wrote about, that religion is inseparable from science, they are married > > interwoven in the foundation. (I am not saying there are not appropriate > > manmade separations, in man's need for efficiency and specialization > > one needs to make artificial separations all the time, but if you look > > at Shoghi Effendi's writings on the Assemblies and Houses of Justice, > > and Abdul Baha's on schools, you can clearly see, that at the foundation > > level, religion and state are complimentary, and that the Local House of > > Justice, and Baha'i School are the foundation institutions of the New > > World Order state. > > All the best! > > > > > > > Your post seems to me to be ladened with the anti-intellectualism that > > > > > has become characteristic of the thinking of many Baha'is. Your > > > > > conclusions don't appear to me to be supported by the Baha'i Writings. > > > > > > > > > > Given modern religious history, since the 1600s really, Western > > > > > secularism has quite rightly that the separation of religion from > > > > > the state is in everyone's best interest. > > > > > > > > > > The Baha'i Faith has yet sufficiently to prove otherwise. > > > > > > > > > > -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester, Michigan USA From: "Rick Boatright" Organization: Topeka Business Computers To: Frederick Glaysher <@MOA.net> Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 10:13:19 -0600 Subject: Re: The Integrity of Bahai Marriage (revised) Reply-to: boatright@cjnetworks.com CC: srb-mods@bcca.org Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.31) X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Dear Frederick, A real, true _question_. Did you mean for this to go out to the newsgroup? The humor is apparent, the advice is probebly reasonable, but I am forced to wonder if you really ment the post to go to the newsgroup. It seems too susceptable to te kind of mis-interpretation that gets rwars started..... I therefore suspect that you ment this for private email. Rick Boatright co-moderator soc.religion.bahai > To: soc-religion-bahai@uunet.uu.net > From: FG <@MOA.net> > Subject: Re: The Integrity of Bahai Marriage (revised) > Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 09:45:16 -0500 > Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A. > To: karl1971@aol.com > Cc: @MOA.net > karl1971@aol.com wrote: > > [clip] > > > The believers of Baha'u'llah have a Faith of integrity. Unlike the world > > that's falling apart around us, the ones who who believe in Baha'u'llah > > make love, not war. > > > > One of the most important ways we do this is by fulfilling a legitimate > > quest to marry, always confident each and everyone of us has the potential > > to be a partner of a beautiful spiritual match made in heaven. > > > > In a Bahai Marriage: > > > > We seek nothing less than a partner with patience, who believes in dreams, > > justice, miracles, and aspirations who will spend every one of his or her > > most physically intimate moments with one and only one for the rest of his > > or her life. > > > > We seek nothing less than a world where every father and mother is > > completely satisfied with who they have for a son-in-law or > > daughter-in-law. > > > > We seek nothing less than a fellow beauty of the opposite sex who respects > > his or her body and doesn't smoke dope or drink booze or have some > > loathsome addiction. > > > > We seek nothing less than someone who always had high standards of > > justice, integrity, dignity, and morality, and has always been sensitive > > and intelligent, even having been raised among sick people and having gone > > through hell in a handbasket. > > > > We seek nothing less than beautiful love making experiences with standards > > of integrity that free us from the shackles of a promiscuous world. > > > > We seek nothing less than a world full of pairs of men and women of good > > taste who legitimately receive and satisfy each other's desires for > > sensual affection. > > > > > > > > -- sincerely > > > > -- Karl > > > Karl, man to man, you need to get married! Let me give you a little unsolicited > advice, if you don't mind. Don't choose one of these half-dead Baha'i women, the > self-righteous zealot type. Find a real woman with some blood flowing through her > veins.... > > -- > Frederick Glaysher > Rochester, Michigan USA > Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 08:07:05 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: boatright@cjnetworks.com CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: The Integrity of Bahai Marriage (revised) References: <199611171601.KAA08931@topeka.cjnetworks.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Rick Boatright wrote: > > Dear Frederick, > > A real, true _question_. Did you mean for this to go out to the > newsgroup? The humor is apparent, the advice is probebly reasonable, > but I am forced to wonder if you really ment the post to go to the > newsgroup. It seems too susceptable to te kind of mis-interpretation > that gets rwars started..... I therefore suspect that you ment > this for private email. > > Rick Boatright > co-moderator > soc.religion.bahai > You "suspect" incorrectly. I certainly intended for my message to be posted. I'd appreciate if you'd act as a moderator and not a censor. I find you're interfering in my communication offensive. Post it. >From - Tue Nov 19 04:56:35 1996 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.39) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Mon, 18 Nov 1996 08:02:27 -0500 Message-ID: <32905FF7.25F8@moa.net> Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 08:09:11 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Richard C. Detweiler" CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: The Integrity of Bahai Marriage (revised) References: <199611171607.JAA22964@primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Richard C. Detweiler wrote: > > Not suitable for the group. Tell hi mto take it to e-mail. > > Dick D. > Dick, I mean this in all seriousness. You're a fascist pig. I'd say that to your face, fellow.... > > From news@news2.acs.oakland.edu Sun Nov 17 07:43:51 1996 > > Received: from bcca.org (root@bounty.bcca.org [208.133.44.40]) by primenet.com (8.8.2/8.8.2) with SMTP id HAA12476 for ; Sun, 17 Nov 1 > > Received: from relay6.UU.NET by bcca.org with smtp > > (Smail3.1.29.1 #3) id m0vP8Rl-0008esC; Sun, 17 Nov 96 09:43 EST > > Received: from news2.acs.oakland.edu by relay6.UU.NET with ESMTP > > (peer crosschecked as: news2.acs.oakland.edu [141.210.10.152]) > > id QQbqfq06145; Sun, 17 Nov 1996 09:43:44 -0500 (EST) > > Received: (from news@localhost) by news2.acs.oakland.edu (8.7.6/8.7.4) id JAA19072; Sun, 17 Nov 1996 09:43:51 -0500 > > To: soc-religion-bahai@uunet.uu.net > > Path: ppp-pm01-dy-29.ouhub.moa.net > > From: FG <@MOA.net> > > Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai > > Subject: Re: The Integrity of Bahai Marriage (revised) > > Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 09:45:16 -0500 > > Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A. > > Lines: 53 > > Message-ID: <328F24FC.253@moa.net> > > References: <"uiWV9.A.DUF.dSkjy"@bounty> > > NNTP-Posting-Host: zeus.moa.net > > Mime-Version: 1.0 > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) > > To: karl1971@aol.com > > CC: @MOA.net > > > > karl1971@aol.com wrote: > > > [clip] > > > > > The believers of Baha'u'llah have a Faith of integrity. Unlike the world > > > that's falling apart around us, the ones who who believe in Baha'u'llah > > > make love, not war. > > > > > > One of the most important ways we do this is by fulfilling a legitimate > > > quest to marry, always confident each and everyone of us has the potential > > > to be a partner of a beautiful spiritual match made in heaven. > > > > > > In a Bahai Marriage: > > > > > > We seek nothing less than a partner with patience, who believes in dreams, > > > justice, miracles, and aspirations who will spend every one of his or her > > > most physically intimate moments with one and only one for the rest of his > > > or her life. > > > > > > We seek nothing less than a world where every father and mother is > > > completely satisfied with who they have for a son-in-law or > > > daughter-in-law. > > > > > > We seek nothing less than a fellow beauty of the opposite sex who respects > > > his or her body and doesn't smoke dope or drink booze or have some > > > loathsome addiction. > > > > > > We seek nothing less than someone who always had high standards of > > > justice, integrity, dignity, and morality, and has always been sensitive > > > and intelligent, even having been raised among sick people and having gone > > > through hell in a handbasket. > > > > > > We seek nothing less than beautiful love making experiences with standards > > > of integrity that free us from the shackles of a promiscuous world. > > > > > > We seek nothing less than a world full of pairs of men and women of good > > > taste who legitimately receive and satisfy each other's desires for > > > sensual affection. > > > > > > > > > > > > -- sincerely > > > > > > -- Karl > > > > > > Karl, man to man, you need to get married! Let me give you a little unsolicited > > advice, if you don't mind. Don't choose one of these half-dead Baha'i women, the > > self-righteous zealot type. Find a real woman with some blood flowing through her > > veins.... > > > > -- > > Frederick Glaysher > > Rochester, Michigan USA > > -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester, Michigan USA --------------B22101EF4E Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="srb10-19.txt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="srb10-19.txt" Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 06:35:36 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: boatright@cjnetworks.com CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community References: <199611181639.KAA16177@topeka.cjnetworks.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Rick Boatright wrote: > > Dear Frederick, > > I was trying to say two unrelated things. > > First, that was a really nice message. Well thought, cohesive, good > writing, I was trying to give you a compliment. > I don't need nor want your unsolicted editorial comments BIG BROTHER. I want the freedom to speak the conscience God has given me and the freedom to be responded to by OTHERS' unconstrained consciences. Stay out of the way. > Second, I was expressing my gratitude that the conflict between you > and the moderators a couple of weeks ago did not result in your > leaving the newsgroup. I appriciate your continued participation. > I feel nothing but contempt for the way you and Richard Detweiler have handled my postings. Make no mistake in that regard. Neither one of you, or anybody, has the prescience to exercise such power and control over others' consciences. The abuse of your power is a proper subject for discussion on the newsgroup. > > Rick Boatright wrote: > > > > > > Really nice message. Good work. Thanks for hanging in there with > > > us Frederick. I really appriciate it. > > > > > > Rick Boatright > > > > > > > Frankly, I don't know what you mean here. > > > > -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester, Michigan USA Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 06:47:54 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: boatright@cjnetworks.com CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: The Integrity of Bahai Marriage (revised) References: <199611181657.KAA17797@topeka.cjnetworks.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Rick Boatright wrote: > > And in your internal model, what is the difference between a > moderator and a censor? See previous message to you. I asked a polite question. Did you intend > to post this? I sent it to the newsgroup, didn't I? Lots of people post things they didn't intend to, and > we catch a lot of those. In such cases, you'd be properly assisting discussion. They are generally greatful. I didn't > complain that you characterize Baha'i women as bloodless. Why should you? What business is it of yours? I'm not writing to you, nor do I want to. Yet here I am stuck in a non-productive task dealing with you and Richard.... I probebly > should. Why should you. Who the hell are you? I didn't complain that your comment was bigoted and > offensive to the vast majority of sexually active and spirited Baha'i > women, though I probebly should. A complaint you're entitled to make. In public. In response to me on the Net. Not shunting anything YOU don't like off into obscurity. Let them tell you that themselves. > I am saying the freedom for them to say so should be extended to them. You are robbing them of that God-given freedom of expression of conscience. > I asked a polite question. > > Lighten up. > Don't tell me to lighten up when you and Richard are perverting and screening the newsgroup self-righteous, prudishly suppressing opinions you don't like. Again, who are you two to make such decisions? Do you really imagine God has given you the ability to make such judgements? > Don't try to put a nazi mantle on my shoulders. > It's already there, Rick. Wake up. > Rick Boatright > co-moderator > soc.religion.bahai > > -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester, Michigan USA >From - Wed Nov 20 10:10:58 1996 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.58) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Wed, 20 Nov 1996 08:46:37 -0500 Message-ID: <32930D52.2FC8@moa.net> Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 08:53:22 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Richard C. Detweiler" CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community References: <199611191434.HAA23362@primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Richard C. Detweiler wrote: > > Dear Mr. Glaysher, > > Thank you for your submission to soc.religion.bahai. > > As your post contains sarcastic comments and argues with the > moderation of the group in a demeaning and disrespectful manner, > it will not be posted. These issues are also peripheral to > the purpose of the newsgroup in any case. > > If you are seeking full vent to your frustrations, I suggest > news.admin or talk.religion.misc on the Internet as the first > is appropriate and the other is unmoderated. This newsgroup, > however, is for discussion of the Baha'i Faith in an atmosphere > of respect and free from topical tangents of all kinds. > > Thank you for participating, > > Dick Detweiler > rdetweil@primenet.com > Co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai > I'm not at all surprised Richardt.... Fascists and totalitarians have always sought to conceal and manipulate reality. > ================ Begin submitted post ========================= > > > To: soc-religion-bahai@uunet.uu.net > > Path: ppp-pm01-dy-26.ouhub.moa.net > > From: FG <@MOA.net> > > Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai > > Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community > > Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 05:44:11 -0500 > > Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A. > > Lines: 68 > > Message-ID: <32918F7B.76FA@moa.net> > > References: <"-ER8GC.A.gTH.UGkiy"@bounty> <56qogd$rii@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> > > NNTP-Posting-Host: zeus.moa.net > > Mime-Version: 1.0 > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) > > To: Sian Smith > > CC: @MOA.net > > > > Sian Smith wrote: > > > > > > In article <"-ER8GC.A.gTH.UGkiy"@bounty>, Frederick Glaysher <@moa.net> says: > > > > > > > > > > [snip extracts from previous messages about being disillusioned] > > > > > > >> : >As you know, the Bahai Faith doesn't have priests, preachers, or any > > > >> : >individuals who have the responsibility of telling people what to do, unlike > > > >> : >churches. However, from my experience I've discovered associating with > > > >> : >"Bahais" and not expecting them to play the roles of surrogate priests and > > > >> : > surrogate parish to be incredibly wishful and foolish thinking. > > > >> > > > >> : Since the Baha'i Community does not have a paid clergy, every Baha'is is > > > >> : to perform the service that the clergy of previous religions performed. We > > > >> : are each to study the Holy Writings, and to teach and deepen others in the > > > >> : Faith. It may be hard for one of a traditional religious background that > > > >> : does not encourage study to take responsibility for one's own spiritual > > > >> : growth, but we all have to struggle to change our shortcomings. > > > >> > > > > > > > >Miguel, you utterly miss Karl's well-taken point here again. It's the abuse of > > > >the responsibility that is the crux of his observation. Power corrupts. > > > >And it can corrupt Baha'is as well as Christians, Muslims, Nazis, etc. > > > > > > Excuse my ignorance, but WHO in the Baha'i Faith has any "power"? I've > > > never met anyone in the Faith who has power of any kind (i.e: power in > > > the sense that they can exert some kind of binding influence over > > > another person). > > > > I'll give you an example: The "moderators" of this newsgroup. They've > > censored a number of messages I've tried to post during the last few weeks. > > They have the "power" to determine what you and everyone else OUT THERE > > reads.... It that's not control and power to SHAPE thought and opinion what > > is it? > > > > Maybe the previous writer was referring to some other > > > kind of power - in which case I would be grateful to receive a > > > "definition", so to speak, of this power and how it compares to the > > > "definition" I had in mind which, in my own humble opinion, is the sort > > > of power which is contained in the assertion "power corrupts". > > > > > > > The "moderators" power is corrupting and inhibiting the exchange of ideas > > on this newsgroup. When I attempted to bring this to the attention of > > contributors by posting a message to this effect earlier, I was told > > > > THOU SHALT NOT QUESTION THE AUTHORITY AND POWER OF THE "MODERATORS." > > Kitab-i-Oppression, page 999. > > > > > The only person who has any kind of power over my spiritual development > > > is ME. I cannot abdicate that responsibility to someone else. > > > > > > > There's a sense in which you're right. But secular and religious history > > is wracked with the abuse of POWER and the devastating results of it.... > > It always began in little ways.... A little at a time.... People shrugged.... > > Let's not make waves.... Let's build UNITY! > > > > > Loving greetings > > > > > > Sian Smith > > > Wellington > > > New Zealand > > > > -- > > Frederick Glaysher > > Rochester, Michigan USA > > > > ================ End submitted post =========================== -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester, Michigan USA Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 09:26:05 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Maya Kaathryn Bohnhoff CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community References: <"BYWGWC.A.PdB.pm0iy"@bounty> <328C806E.295C@moa.net> <32908412.2C44@oro.net> <3291A53E.78A1@moa.net> <3291CC64.9F@oro.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 Maya Kaathryn Bohnhoff wrote: > > Frederick Glaysher wrote: > > > > It > > > may be failing on my part if I don't try to correct > > > their view of me, but it is a far grosser failing if > > > I resent them for their views and let myself become > > > embittered by it. I won't change anything by lashing > > > out in anger, or by intentional alienation. Worst of all > > > if I separate myself from the entire Baha'i community > > > and Baha'u'allah because of these people, I'm only > > > doing myself a disservice. If they're really my enemies, > > > then my being a "weak sister" would be quite pleasing > > > to them. > > > > > > > You're a lovely soul. A more pious answer than I can muster. > > Piety has nothing to do with it. It's common sense. If we are > to unify, we must be unified. Unity can never be served by > anger or alienation. The only way to get rid of darkness is > to throw light on it. More darkness only conduces to, well... > more darkness. > > To my mind, after twenty years in the Baha'i Faith, the "unity" is a fraud, doesn't exist.... > > How will they deal with such things? What are the mechanisms? > > For "Evil is the Nature of Mankind." > > The mechanisms are those clearly laid down by Baha'u'llah, > Abdu'l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi. They involve a certain > giving up of self, consultation, respect, courtesy and > other attributes with which God has fully invested us. If these are the "mechanisms," they're insufficient. > I have served on assemblies for over 15 years. I've seen > this at work. Sometimes we need reminders, sometimes we > fail utterly, but the fact that we try is of paramount > importance and has great power. > > ""Evil is the Nature of Mankind?" Not according to > Baha'u'llah: > > "O Son of the Wondrous Vision! I have breathed upon thee > a breath of My own Spirit that thou mayest be My lover. > Why hast thou forsaken me and sought a beloved other > than Me?" > > "O Son of Spirit! Noble have I created thee, yet thou > hast abased thyself. Rise then, unto that for which > thou wast created." > > These passages and others make it clear that it is > our nature to be noble. Antinomy is presupposed. There is tragedy in Baha'u'llah's writings, tragedy minds like yours (I mean no insult), typically fail to understand. The other part is nurture. > We learn deceit and we teach it to others. We learn > hatred and we pass it along like a disease. > > > > Buddha said: Hatred does not cease by hatred, hatred ceases > > > by love. > > > > > > > Tell that to the Tibetans who have had their whole civilization > > wiped out.... > > They understand this better than anyone. What, after all, > nearly wiped out their civilization? Hatred and fear of what > was different and not controllable by the powers that would > be. > Even the Dali Lama has had second thoughts.... Much too late. > > They must. Let's be practical. What though when Assemblies self- > > righteously abuse their authority and persecute individuals? That > > can happen too, and then what? > > If a person feels he is being persecuted he has recourse to > the Auxiliary Board, another spiritual assembly, the National > Spiritual Assembly or even the House of Justice. Any and all > of these avenues of redress is open to the individual. Of > course, there is always the possibility that the individual's > perception that he's being "persecuted" is false. It's never > pleasant to be wrong about something, less pleasant to have > someone call your attention to it and ask that your behavior > change. I know this from personal experience. > > > > > As > > > an individual, I still had to treat the subject of consultation > > > with compassion. > > > > > > > A very dehumanizing phrase, Maya. It seems to me. This human tendency > > worries me. Don't tell me to pray about it. > > I'm sorry. I certainly didn't intend it to be. I intended it to be > neutral. Look, I have served on assemblies long enough to have > seen a gamut of personal problems and situations arise. I have > NEVER known an assembly to EVER lose sight of the fact that > what they were dealing with wasn't a problem, but a person. > Usually, the person is much loved, and their situation causes > the members of the institution very personal grief. > > The sad thing is that the soul involved doesn't always realize > this. And regardless of the actual feelings of the assembly > members, treats them as if they were indeed, a persecuting > force. One young man an assembly I sat on counseled had a > drug problem for which he refused to get help. He viewed > the mere fact that the assembly called him for consultation > as an act of personal persecution. He thought the people on > the assembly were "out to get him," when in fact, every one > of them loved him, valued him and wanted him to be well both > spiritually and physically. After one meeting in which we had > attempted to talk to him, several members of the assembly burst > into tears. > Anything in the name of love? Nine amateur spiritual psychologists are just going to talk someone straight? I've seen it attempted too with similar results.... > > > > Reasonable. Many in the Faith thinks this way. I do too in some regards. > > But then we're no longer in a world of ideal beauty.... > > But Baha'u'llah is clear that His teachings and the power > released by His revelation have the capacity to light that > spark He says lies latent within us. I've seen what that > spark can accomplish in the lives of ordinary human beings. > We have within our grasp the means of bringing that world > of ideal beauty out of the realm of spirit and onto this > earth. The scriptures of God's faith in every age proclaim > this unequivocally. > And have always failed.... By there own self-definitions, failed. Why? What is it about human nature? Do you actually believe the Baha'i Faith will do any better? I don't. I don't believe the deepest suggestions of the writings suggest any such thing. > > My post, I believe, was about the individual capacity to sully anything > > and everything in "this world of gloom." > > May I call you Eeyore? :) (Sorry, couldn't help myself.) > I tried to post a reply to on the newsgroup. I used the same phrase in the copy I mailed you: "utterly naive" Richard Detweiler has banned my post because it might hurt your feelings--not my intention. A good example of the self-righteous Fascism build the new world order inspires in Baha'i fanatics.... Calling me Eeyore doesn't hurt my feelings. I have, unlike fanatics, a sense of humor and relish the variety of human temperaments God has so blessed the world with. Yours is not mine, that is all. Do the Faith a favor, write the CENSOR and tell him to respect the human conscience of others, not only mine. > In the Kitab-i-Iqan, Baha'u'llah says that when we truly > accept Him, recognize Him, the Holy Spirit will confer > upon us "a new ear, a new eye, a new heart and a new mind." > We are capable of being transformed, and the Word of God > (and only the Word of God ) is capable of causing that > transformation. > Beautiful metaphors. Understand? > I am deeply sorry that your experience within the > Baha'i community has been so negative. The lack of complexity is what concerns me, and the lack of acknowledgement of proportion. But every > negative experience in life offers us more than one > way to react. I've often marveled how adversity can > make one person opt for a life of misery and > recrimination (it was mother's fault, it was God's > fault, it was...) and another come to the decision that > they will simply NOT let that adversity steal their > joy, or their life. > > I know there are Baha'i communities that are ruled > by a small clique of set in stone believers, or > groups where a number of petty-minded souls seem > to have things in control. Indeed, I have a friend > who lived in such a community until a new Baha'i > family moved in and changed the dynamics of the > situation. My friend chose to deal with the problem > by withdrawing. The new friends set about and > accomplished the renewal of that community by > opening their house to firesides, getting the > assembly to meet, teaching the faith, and most > important, showering everyone in their community, > including those set in stone souls with love. They > gave the community the medicine Baha'u'llah > prescribed and saved the patient. > The usual answer. Lacking complexity. > You may argue against the idea that hatred ceases > only through love, but this is a prescription from > a Physician who knows far more about the ills of > human kind than either you or I. > It has never truly healed the patient. Baha'u'llah, unlike Baha'is, understands the condition is terminal.... > Mir, Maya > +----------------------------------------+ > | Maya Kaathryn Bohnhoff syntax@oro.net | > +----------------------------------------+ > | "The beginning of all things is the | > | knowledge of God." - Baha'u'llah | > +----------------------------------------+ -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester, Michigan USA From: "Richard C. Detweiler" Message-Id: <199611191443.HAA24131@primenet.com> Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community To: @moa.net (Frederick Glaysher) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 07:43:07 -0700 (MST) Cc: srb-mods@bcca.org In-Reply-To: <3291959D.7D9C@moa.net> from "Frederick Glaysher" at Nov 19, 96 06:10:21 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Dear Mr. Glaysher, Thank you for your submission to soc.religion.bahai. I ask that you strike the comment "utterly naive" as an attack on the previous poster. If you would like to say you disagree, that would be acceptable. Also, your sarcastic comments in the following paragraph: > Excellent point. A profound moral problem arises here. How can the individual > maintain the moral strength of character to resist abuse and manipulation when > power can be wielded in such a way as to undermine that very ability? To > discredit it. Ban it. Brand it as outlaw, heretic, disruptive, anti-social, > working against the realization, e.g., of the communist Kingdom of Freedom. If you would turn this into a meaningful criticism based on actual events than the readership could evaluate and enter into a dialog with you on these events. Again, let me make it clear that if you have a grievance with the Faith, you are free to air it here, but it must be the facts and your reasons for the grievance presented and not belittling insults, broad stereotypes, and blatant sarcasm. Thank you for participating, Dick Detweiler rdetweil@primenet.com Co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai ================ Begin submitted post ========================= > To: soc-religion-bahai@uunet.uu.net > Path: ppp-pm01-dy-26.ouhub.moa.net > From: FG <@moa.net> > Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai > Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community > Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 06:10:21 -0500 > Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A. > Lines: 78 > Message-ID: <3291959D.7D9C@moa.net> > References: <"-ER8GC.A.gTH.UGkiy"@bounty> <56qoi9$rmd@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> > NNTP-Posting-Host: zeus.moa.net > Mime-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) > To: Anne Furlong > CC: @moa.net > > Anne Furlong wrote: > > > > The reference to power probably helps poinpoint the difficulty some of > > the friends have here. The point is that in this Faith, for the first > > time in religious history, power and authority have been intentionally > > and effectively severed. The authority to make decisions, to legislate, > > to guide, rests with the elected institutions of the Faith. However, > > these institutions - and the individuals who make them up - have no power > > whatsoever. > > "No power whatsoever": Utterly naive.... > > [clip] > > > > > Why do people become disillusioned with the community? with individuals? > > Well, we all know people who, by force of personality, or because of > > defects of character and personality, receive, demand, or desire > > acquiescence from other individuals. But note: if such people do in fact > > poison a community, who ultimately must take the responsibility? Power > > is not theirs to command: it is ceded to them by those who have not the > > wisdom or the courage to recognise that what is being asked is both > > contrary to the Faith, and ultimately impossible to give. > > > > Excellent point. A profound moral problem arises here. How can the individual > maintain the moral strength of character to resist abuse and manipulation when > power can be wielded in such a way as to undermine that very ability? To > discredit it. Ban it. Brand it as outlaw, heretic, disruptive, anti-social, > working against the realization, e.g., of the communist Kingdom of Freedom. > > > Yes, impossible: for since in the Administrative order which is > > Baha'u'llah's gift to the world, power and authority are divided, > > In theory, yes; in practice, I'm not convinced. > > then the > > efforts of a few misguided individuals to bring power and authority > > together in their own persons; or to build up factions; or to do anything, > > in fact, which is contravenes the spirit and the reality of the Covenant, > > are doomed to failure. 'Abdu'l-Baha said that the ocean of the Covenant > > will surge and surge until it casts the bodies of the (spiritually) dead > > onto the shore. We cannot ultimately harm the progress of the Cause, but > > can cut ourselves off from the abundant share of the blessings which > > obedience to the Covenant brings to us. > > > > If we are disillusioned with the community we live in, then our response > > will either add to the problem or be the start of its eradication. The > > whole purpose of consultation is to allow the individual to exercise > > responsibility - his power - within the "unit of civilization". > > What I am saying is that there are situations when it is not allowed. You're > too quick to leap over that fact for me. > > We are > > all going to be responsible for our actions to Baha'u'llah when we pass > > from this earth; are we going to plead the immaturity of others as the > > reason for our failure to love? > > > > Your dragging "love" into this confuses the issue. > > > Baha'u'llah did more than despise tyranny; in his Administrative Order, > > He, as the Divine Physician, prescribed the effective and permanent remedy. > > > > The point from the original post was in regard to the abuse of the remedy, > turning it into a cheap medicine show elixir. What then of the community > or individuals under that Tyranny? > > > All the best, > > > > Anne Furlong > > St John's Newfoundland Canada > > -- > Frederick Glaysher > Rochester, Michigan USA > ================ End submitted post =========================== Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 10:27:04 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Richard C. Detweiler" CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community References: <199611191434.HAA23362@primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Richard C. Detweiler wrote: > > Dear Mr. Glaysher, > > Thank you for your submission to soc.religion.bahai. > > As your post contains sarcastic comments and argues with the > moderation of the group in a demeaning and disrespectful manner, > it will not be posted. These issues are also peripheral to > the purpose of the newsgroup in any case. > False. They go to the heart of the matter, i.e., how it functions. > If you are seeking full vent to your frustrations, I suggest > news.admin or talk.religion.misc on the Internet as the first > is appropriate and the other is unmoderated. "Vent your frustrations" is in the same category as my "Utterly naive." I don't seek to deprive you of your conscience that apparently believes that. You may say what you wish. It won't hurt my little feelings. I believe you're again manipulating discussion in a dictatorial, oppressive manner unjustified by anything in the Baha'i Writings which you apparently cloak your shameless deeds in. This newsgroup, > however, is for discussion of the Baha'i Faith in an atmosphere > of respect and free from topical tangents of all kinds. > The abuse of the conscience of a member of the Baha'i Faith and, apparently regular practice of distortion and censorship is not a suitable topic? I can understand why you wouldn't wish to have anyone else know.... > Thank you for participating, > I'm not participating at all. You are self-righteous depriving me of that. You are also depriving others of hearing or disagreeing with my opinions. > Dick Detweiler > rdetweil@primenet.com > Co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai > > ================ Begin submitted post ========================= > > > To: soc-religion-bahai@uunet.uu.net > > Path: ppp-pm01-dy-26.ouhub.moa.net > > From: FG <@MOA.net> > > Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai > > Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community > > Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 05:44:11 -0500 > > Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A. > > Lines: 68 > > Message-ID: <32918F7B.76FA@moa.net> > > References: <"-ER8GC.A.gTH.UGkiy"@bounty> <56qogd$rii@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> > > NNTP-Posting-Host: zeus.moa.net > > Mime-Version: 1.0 > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) > > To: Sian Smith > > CC: @MOA.net > > > > Sian Smith wrote: > > > > > > In article <"-ER8GC.A.gTH.UGkiy"@bounty>, Frederick Glaysher <@moa.net> says: > > > > > > > > > > [snip extracts from previous messages about being disillusioned] > > > > > > >> : >As you know, the Bahai Faith doesn't have priests, preachers, or any > > > >> : >individuals who have the responsibility of telling people what to do, unlike > > > >> : >churches. However, from my experience I've discovered associating with > > > >> : >"Bahais" and not expecting them to play the roles of surrogate priests and > > > >> : > surrogate parish to be incredibly wishful and foolish thinking. > > > >> > > > >> : Since the Baha'i Community does not have a paid clergy, every Baha'is is > > > >> : to perform the service that the clergy of previous religions performed. We > > > >> : are each to study the Holy Writings, and to teach and deepen others in the > > > >> : Faith. It may be hard for one of a traditional religious background that > > > >> : does not encourage study to take responsibility for one's own spiritual > > > >> : growth, but we all have to struggle to change our shortcomings. > > > >> > > > > > > > >Miguel, you utterly miss Karl's well-taken point here again. It's the abuse of > > > >the responsibility that is the crux of his observation. Power corrupts. > > > >And it can corrupt Baha'is as well as Christians, Muslims, Nazis, etc. > > > > > > Excuse my ignorance, but WHO in the Baha'i Faith has any "power"? I've > > > never met anyone in the Faith who has power of any kind (i.e: power in > > > the sense that they can exert some kind of binding influence over > > > another person). > > > > I'll give you an example: The "moderators" of this newsgroup. They've > > censored a number of messages I've tried to post during the last few weeks. > > They have the "power" to determine what you and everyone else OUT THERE > > reads.... If that's not control and power to SHAPE thought and opinion what > > is it? > > > > Maybe the previous writer was referring to some other > > > kind of power - in which case I would be grateful to receive a > > > "definition", so to speak, of this power and how it compares to the > > > "definition" I had in mind which, in my own humble opinion, is the sort > > > of power which is contained in the assertion "power corrupts". > > > > > > > The "moderators" power is corrupting and inhibiting the exchange of ideas > > on this newsgroup. When I attempted to bring this to the attention of > > contributors by posting a message to this effect earlier, I was told > > > > THOU SHALT NOT QUESTION THE AUTHORITY AND POWER OF THE "MODERATORS." > > Kitab-i-Oppression, page 999. > > > > > The only person who has any kind of power over my spiritual development > > > is ME. I cannot abdicate that responsibility to someone else. > > > > > > > There's a sense in which you're right. But secular and religious history > > is wracked with the abuse of POWER and the devastating results of it.... > > It always began in little ways.... A little at a time.... People shrugged.... > > Let's not make ways.... Let's build UNITY! > > > > > Loving greetings > > > > > > Sian Smith > > > Wellington > > > New Zealand > > > > -- > > Frederick Glaysher > > Rochester, Michigan USA > > > = End submitted post =========================== YOU DEAR CENSORS have shown your true colors once again. >From - Wed Nov 20 13:57:47 1996 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.66) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Wed, 20 Nov 1996 10:25:30 -0500 Message-ID: <3293247F.2340@moa.net> Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 10:32:15 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Richard C. Detweiler" CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community References: <199611191443.HAA24131@primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Further response-- Your characterization of my comments as sarcastic is ludicrous. One may not be sarcastic in the Baha'i Faith? And you are too determine is toooooo SARCASTIC? Oh God, what a farce! Since you apparently don't understand the passage in question, I'm supposed to water in down for YOUR ignorance! I'm talking about the totalitarianism of the SOVIET UNION which you dangerously come close to. Again, I request that you post my message or pass it on to someone else who is not as fanatical as you. Richard C. Detweiler wrote: > > Dear Mr. Glaysher, > > Thank you for your submission to soc.religion.bahai. > > I ask that you strike the comment "utterly naive" as an attack > on the previous poster. If you would like to say you disagree, > that would be acceptable. > > Also, your sarcastic comments in the following paragraph: > > > Excellent point. A profound moral problem arises here. How can the individual > > maintain the moral strength of character to resist abuse and manipulation when > > power can be wielded in such a way as to undermine that very ability? To > > discredit it. Ban it. Brand it as outlaw, heretic, disruptive, anti-social, > > working against the realization, e.g., of the communist Kingdom of Freedom. > > If you would turn this into a meaningful criticism based on actual events > than the readership could evaluate and enter into a dialog with you on these > events. > > Again, let me make it clear that if you have a grievance with the Faith, > you are free to air it here, but it must be the facts and your reasons for > the grievance presented and not belittling insults, broad stereotypes, and > blatant sarcasm. > > Thank you for participating, > > Dick Detweiler > rdetweil@primenet.com > Co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai > > ================ Begin submitted post ========================= > > > To: soc-religion-bahai@uunet.uu.net > > Path: ppp-pm01-dy-26.ouhub.moa.net > > From: FG <@moa.net> > > Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai > > Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community > > Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 06:10:21 -0500 > > Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A. > > Lines: 78 > > Message-ID: <3291959D.7D9C@moa.net> > > References: <"-ER8GC.A.gTH.UGkiy"@bounty> <56qoi9$rmd@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> > > NNTP-Posting-Host: zeus.moa.net > > Mime-Version: 1.0 > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) > > To: Anne Furlong > > CC: @moa.net > > > > Anne Furlong wrote: > > > > > > The reference to power probably helps poinpoint the difficulty some of > > > the friends have here. The point is that in this Faith, for the first > > > time in religious history, power and authority have been intentionally > > > and effectively severed. The authority to make decisions, to legislate, > > > to guide, rests with the elected institutions of the Faith. However, > > > these institutions - and the individuals who make them up - have no power > > > whatsoever. > > > > "No power whatsoever": Utterly naive.... > > > > [clip] From: FG <@MOA.net> Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Subject: New Sacred Text Unveiled Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 08:43:04 -0500 Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A. Lines: 20 Message-ID: <32945C68.3378@moa.net> References: <56tfo6$cgg@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> <56vdgi$eth@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: zeus.moa.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) CC: @MOA.net X-Mozilla-Status: 0004 Apparently, a new text has been discovered. Or perhaps it has always been there. I, and others, apparently, missed it. It was difficult to see. Alas, I, we, are so woefully human.... Blind and stumbling through this morass.... The crucial passage in the newly discovered Revealed Word is this: THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT SARCASM! There are sensitive plants. We mustn't hurt their feelings. I beg all of you to meditate profoundly on this koan. It has the power to change the world.... -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester, Michigan USA From: FG <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Richard C. Detweiler" CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community References: <199611202214.PAA26784@primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Richard C. Detweiler wrote: > > > > > > > The charter of the newsgroup states that "the Newsgroup will be subject > > > to standards of Baha'i consultation whose salient features include frank > > > yet respectful statement of views and the concerted, open-minded search > > > for truth." It is on this statement in the charter and this statement > > > alone that I have rejected some of your posts. > > > > I don't believe this is true. "Utterly naive" refers to the idea, not to > > its author as an insult. You're the one who has construed that way. I can't > > even understand what could possibly be WRONG with your objection to the > > second passage in the post in question. > > > > Thank you for pointing this out - I hadn't thought of it like that. Then what's YOUR problem. Post it or suppress it. But I > hope you can see that if I (and the other mods) can be confused on this > point, it will probably be the case with many in the readership as well. You're assumption is that OTHERS will be as imperceptive as you. And hence you BAN ME! > Our tendency is to err on the side of not posting things when they may be > misinterpretted by the readership as being attacks or insults. Even after admitting the ERROR is on your part? Not logical. You're trying to justify your heavy-handed will to BAN. That way, > the respectful tone is maintained. There is nothing disrespectful about either passage YOU'VE questioned. Remember that the readership includes > people from all backgrounds and cultures. Irrelevant justification. You're groping for excuses. I have been surprised many times > when seemingly innocuous comments have offended. Nothing would then ever get posted in your scenario. Unless it meets your prejudices. I try to make sure the > chance of this is kept to a minimum. > I don't know that. You're suppression to posting ratio would be required to make that determination; it would have to be independently confirmed. > And, if I may, don't you think "I believe you are being naive because..." > makes your points easier for other to accept and continue to engage you > rather than a brusque "Utterly naive"? Please think about that. I > assume your reason for being here is to share your viewpoint with others. > You sound like a schoolmarm. A self-righteous, prudish old bag. What gives you the right? God's charter? It doesn't come from Him. > > Your attempt to hide behind the newsgroup charter strikes me as a mere > > stratagem to conceal what you're actually doing: CENSORING. > > > > Once again, Mr Glaysher - my job is not to supress ideas but to make sure > those ideas are presented in a respectful manner conducive to frank and > unfettered consultation. > You're completely fettering my consultation. But that's okay. You possess the prescience to know better. Again, you're groping for justification of your suppressing the presentation of my views to others. > I continue to await the chance to post your thoughts in the submittals in > question when they are appropriate for posting to the newsgroup. > Mr. Detweiler, you appear to me to be completely shameless and drunk on your little power to muzzle people who don't echo your opinions. > Dick Detweiler > co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai Again, I ask you to post my message since as you acknowledge above its about IDEAS. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester, Michigan USA From: "Richard C. Detweiler" Message-Id: <199611221548.IAA01560@primenet.com> Subject: Re: New Sacred Text Unveiled To: @MOA.net (Frederick Glaysher) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 08:48:14 -0700 (MST) Cc: srb-mods@bcca.org In-Reply-To: <3295A80D.1168@moa.net> from "Frederick Glaysher" at Nov 22, 96 08:18:05 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Dear Mr. Glaysher, Sorry for the inadvertent send on the last message. The following will not be posted to the newsgroup as it is disrespectful in tone and sarcastic in the extreme. As a Baha'i, perhaps you will get some value out of the following excerpts from Baha'u'llah's Writings. I provide them as insight into why the moderators enforce the policies they have in place. "O ye beloved of the Lord! Commit not that which defileth the limpid stream of love or destroyeth the sweet fragrance of friendship. By the righteousness of the Lord! We were created to show love one to another and not perversity and rancor. Take pride not in love for yourselves but in love for your fellow-creatures. Glory not in love for your country, but in love for all mankind." - Baha'u'llah, Tablets of Baha'u'llah 138 (quoted in "Unrestrained as the Wind", section on "Demonstrating love and fellowship", p 87 ). "Say: Human utterance is an essence which aspireth to exert its influence and needeth moderation. As to its influence, this is conditional upon refinement which in turn is dependent upon hearts which are detached and pure. As to its moderation, this hath to be combined with tact and wisdom as prescribed in the Holy Scriptures and Tablets. Meditate upon that which hath streamed forth from the heaven of the Will of thy Lord, He Who is the Source of all grace, that thou mayest grasp the intended meaning which is enshrined in the sacred depths of the Holy Writings." - Baha'u'llah, Tablet of Wisdom, Tablets of Baha'u'llah, p. 143 "For the tongue is a smouldering fire, and excess of speech a deadly poison. Material fire consumeth the body, whereas the fire of the tongue devoureth both heart and soul. The force of the former lasteth but for a time, whilst the effects of the latter endure a century." - Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 193 Thank you for participating, Dick Detweiler rdetweil@primenet.com Co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai ================ Begin submitted post ========================= > To: soc-religion-bahai@uunet.uu.net > Path: ppp-pm01-dy-11.ouhub.moa.net > From: FG <@MOA.net> > Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai > Subject: New Sacred Text Unveiled > Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 08:18:05 -0500 > Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A. > Lines: 20 > Message-ID: <3295A80D.1168@moa.net> > References: <56vhv1$p1e@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> > NNTP-Posting-Host: zeus.moa.net > Mime-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) > CC: @MOA.net > > Apparently, a new text has been discovered. Or perhaps it has always > been there. I, and others, apparently, missed it. It was difficult > to see. Alas, I, we, are so woefully human.... Blind and stumbling > through this morass.... > > The crucial passage in the newly discovered Revealed Word is this: > > > THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT SARCASM! > > > There are sensitive plants. We mustn't hurt their feelings. > > I beg all of you to meditate profoundly on this koan. It has the > power to change the world.... > > > -- > Frederick Glaysher > Rochester, Michigan USA > ================ End submitted post =========================== >From - Sun Nov 24 10:10:50 1996 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.60) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Sat, 23 Nov 1996 07:34:58 -0500 Message-ID: <3296F108.4BEF@moa.net> Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 07:41:44 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Richard C. Detweiler" CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community References: <199611211540.IAA09540@primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 What I wrote meets the charter of the newsgroup and the "modifications" you want are unnecessary and unjustifiable. You yourself acknowledged your request for "modification" was based on your own misreading and misunderstanding of the post. God save us if the Baha'i Faith comes down to people like you "protecting" us.... I ask you again to post it or pass it on to someone else who's more rational than you. --------------B22101EF4E-- From - Mon Feb 10 05:29:24 1997 BCC: @MOA.net Message-ID: <32FEF884.56FF@moa.net> Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 05:29:24 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Graham Sorenson Subject: Ooops! 10-19 twice; here's 1-9, 10-19 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------B22101EF4E" X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 78122 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------B22101EF4E Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit delete the earlier send if you like. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA --------------B22101EF4E Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="srb1-9.txt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="srb1-9.txt" >From - Thu Nov 07 16:39:58 1996 Message-ID: <3282572E.2005@moa.net> Date: Thu, 07 Nov 1996 16:39:58 -0500 From: <@moa.net> Organization: X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Richard C. Detweiler" Subject: Re: statement of principles part 1 References: <199611071911.MAA13396@primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Richard C. Detweiler wrote: > > Dear Friend, > > Thank you for your submission to soc.religion.bahai. > > I am returningthis to you for editting. I cannot allow the blanket > statements: I refuse to edit my post in any way whatsoever. Your role as a moderator is not to be a fascist and stunt the serious exchange of ideas. Incidentally, "editting" is spelt with one "t." > > > It seems to me the growth of the Faith has been perhaps hopelessly stunted by > > the Iranian Baha'i influence upon the understanding of its teachings, > > especially in this regard. > > and > > > and modest possibilities of human material. One that that such cultures as that > > of Iran blithely ignore in their futile, primitive, brutal search for perfection > > and obedience. > > to be postedi to the newsgroup. As stated with no supporting information, > these statements are unfair stereotypes which could cause a lot of heat with > no new light. :-) Please either strike them or edit them to make them more > general or backed up by fact. > > Thank you for participating, > > Dick Detweiler > rdetweil@primenet.com > Co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai > > ================ Begin submitted post ========================= > > > To: soc-religion-bahai@uunet.uu.net > > Path: ppp-pm01-dy-1.ouhub.moa.net > > From: <@moa.net> > > Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai > > Subject: Re: statement of principles part 1 > > Date: Thu, 07 Nov 1996 11:08:44 -0500 > > Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A. > > Lines: 87 > > Message-ID: <3282098C.31E@moa.net> > > References: <55sp6p$q76@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> > > NNTP-Posting-Host: zeus.moa.net > > Mime-Version: 1.0 > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) > > To: karl1971@aol.com > > > > karl1971@aol.com wrote: > > > > > > > > Personally, over the years I've been incredibly disillusioned with the Bahai > > > Community. I was brainwashed to believe it meant a lot of things it > > > doesn't. To, illustrate, I can still remember going to a youth deepening > > > when I was 17 and hearing this highly respected fiery lipped ex-radical > > > ominously railing to us guys about "locker room talk" --- basically in her > > > war like ways she was trying to instill a sense of shame for thinking > > > unchaste thoughts ---- which was good in a sense ---- but believe me, the way > > > she worded herself was absolute condescending nonsense. She cleverly made it > > > sound like it was a terrible crime to get horny. --- The point being, at the > > > time, being a na ve kid, I took her way too seriously. > > > > > > > Karl, people are evil and twist and debase every political and religious form to > > their own purposes. I've witnessed this same kind of thing in the Baha'i Faith > > many, many times. Who, if they have even a modicum of honesty and perspicacity, > > hasn't? > > > > > As you know, the Bahai Faith doesn't have priests, preachers, or any > > > individuals who have the responsibility of telling people what to do, unlike > > > churches. However, from my experience I've discovered associating with > > > "Bahais" and not expecting them to play the roles of surrogate priests and > > > surrogate parish to be incredibly wishful and foolish thinking. > > > > > > > Many people are all too willing to ASSUME these roles--through election or > > otherwise makes little difference. Tainted wine in new vessels. > > > > > > > > Moreover, it is precisely this sense of distrust for people in an > > > authoritative position such as priests, that in my opinion, strikes a nerve > > > in America's character. ---- If one needs good tactics for mass enrollments > > > in the U.S., my suggestion is that we start with those aspects of the Faith > > > that appeal to those who have good reasons to distrust authority. After all, > > > isn't this distrust a tradition in this country? > > > > > > > It seems to me the growth of the Faith has been perhaps hopelessly stunted by > > the Iranian Baha'i influence upon the understanding of its teachings, > > especially in this regard. > > > > > If one needs a reason to see why its so easy for people not to be Bahais, or > > > for that matter, why it's so easy to disobey the Laws of God, look no further > > > than members of the influential Bahai Community playing surrogate priests to > > > those foolish enough to play surrogate parish ----- Which has the inevitable > > > effect of denying what's a part of life: what's worth respecting, what's > > > worth being ashamed of, and what's worth forgiving. > > > > > > > You, sir, have an Antinomian mind; you should OBEY!!!! > > > > > These roles have this effect because sooner or later a parish will wonder if > > > the priest is worth putting on a pedestal. As such, it will eventually see > > > the natural flaws in his character and not take a damn thing he says > > > seriously. Whereas with independent investigation of truth, which > > > Baha'u'llah so brilliantly condones, there are no flaws to be disillusioned > > > with. > > > > > > > In Young Goodman Brown, Hawthorne perceived it long ago: "Evil is the Nature > > of Mankind." I also recall Ecclessiates: "The heart of the sons of men is > > full of evil." > > > > > If one needs a good subject for a fireside or a deepening, I strongly > > > recommend we deepen each other on whatever it takes to psychologically break > > > whatever it is that compels us to play such roles. > > > > In Some Answered Questions, Abdul-Baha says of evil, it "continues and endures." > > Not at all an upbeat modern concept full of psychological hope. > > > > >"I have sworn eternal hostility to all forms of Tyranny against the minds > > >of man." - Thomas Jefferson > > > > >Maybe that's why the U.S. is the cradle of the Faith. What other countries > > >are founded on such principles? > > > > You make me think of James Madison in the Federalist Papers: "I never expect > > to see a perfect thing from imperfect man." An exceedingly Western, Christian, > > American notion, though all the great religions have a sense of the limitations > > and modest possibilities of human material. One that that such cultures as that > > of Iran blithely ignore in their futile, primitive, brutal search for perfection > > and obedience. > > > > Frederick Glaysher > > Rochester, Michigan, USA > > > > ================ End submitted post =========================== Date: Sat, 09 Nov 1996 17:25:32 -0500 From: <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Richard C. Detweiler" CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Bahai Community References: <199611091538.IAA03876@primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Richard C. Detweiler wrote: > > Dear Frederick, > > Please reformat and delete personal reference to moderators and > blanket attacks against groups and I would be happy to post > your remarks, > > Dick Detweiler > co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai > rdetweil@primenet.com Dear Richard: Let me make sure I understand this: Moderators, like Hitler and other fascists, are above all criticism. The Kitab-i-Oppression says so. I spelled out "SOME" though I believe the context, as well as reason, implies it. > > > Date: Sat, 09 Nov 1996 07:58:27 -0500 > > From: <@moa.net> > > Organization: > > X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) > > MIME-Version: 1.0 > > To: "Richard C. Detweiler" > > Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Bahai Community > > References: <199611071911.MAA13396@primenet.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > > Richard C. Detweiler wrote: > > > > > > Dear Friend, > > > > > > Thank you for your submission to soc.religion.bahai. > > > > > > I am returningthis to you for editting. [sic] I cannot allow the blanket > > > statements: > > > > > > > It seems to me the growth of the Faith has been perhaps hopelessly stunted by > > > > the Iranian Baha'i influence upon the understanding of its teachings, > > > > especially in this regard. > > > > > > and > > > > > > > and modest possibilities of human material. One that that such cultures as that > > > > of Iran blithely ignore in their futile, primitive, brutal search for perfection > > > > and obedience. > > > > > > to be postedi to the newsgroup. As stated with no supporting information, > > > these statements are unfair stereotypes which could cause a lot of heat with > > > no new light. :-) Please either strike them or edit them to make them more > > > general or backed up by fact. > > > > > > Thank you for participating, > > > > > > Dick Detweiler > > > rdetweil@primenet.com > > > Co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai > > > > > > ================ Begin submitted post ========================= > > > From: FG <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Richard C. Detweiler" CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Bahai Community References: <199611092303.QAA00271@primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Richard C. Detweiler wrote: > > Dear Frederick, > > I am sorry if you have a problem with moderated newsgroups. "Problem" is a derogatory characterization of my position. What I disaprove of is CENSORED newsgroups. In my last posting, I apparently hurt your feelings. But if > you would like to take part in the discussion on this groups, you need > to make sure your submittals meet the charter of the group. I am > enclosing a copy of it for your reference. Please keep it in mind > while reviewing the post in question and my comments. Again, when > it is free of personal attacks [you?] and negative comments about a whole > group of people which could find them offensive, [I qualified the obvious, i.e., what ought to go without saying.] I would be happy > to post it. My reformatting request had to do with getting rid of > the '>'s that have build up over the course of our exchange. I'm resending it then. > > Let me also reiterate that negative comments about the Faith are fine > on the newsgroup as long as they meet the charter. If you would like > to make a point that Iranian culture tends towards orthodoxy and that > that may impact the way some individuals act, that's alright. [sic] Just > make sure the comments meet the charter. [And God has enlightened you to make the decision?] If you want to say Baha'is > are a bunch of uptight, repressed, narrow-minded, religiously-conned, > non-intellectual, misguided saps, just make sure you say it with a > smile on your face, OK? This, Richard, is a generalization, one apparently you find permissible. I, however, will grant you what you refuse to grant me: The statement of an opinion without endless, absurd qualifications, IMHOs, etc. > > And one more thing, fascists like me like honey a lot better than > vinegar. If you take my meaning... > You're abusing your power. All fascists do/did. Threats stultify the exchange of ideas as much as censorship. > Your jack-booted, brown-shirted moderator friend, You're trying to turn into a joke a very serious issue. > > Dick Detweiler > co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai > rdetweil@primenet.com > > CHARTER FOR THE SOC.RELIGION.BAHAI NEWSGROUP > ============================================== I don't disagree with any of this nor did my original post. From: FG <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Richard C. Detweiler" CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Bahai Community References: <199611101525.IAA23650@primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0011 Richard C. Detweiler wrote: > > Dear Frederick, > > The following comments - as personal attacks which have no place on > this newsgroup - need to be removed before this will be submitted to > the newsgroup: > These do not constitute personal attacks but exposures of your undue interference in the content on my postings. I can understand you would prefer no one else should know about the issue. In my opinion, you're violating my constitutional freedom as an American citizen and my privilege as a Baha'i to express my conscience candidly. In both of these passages, I am taking issue with the heavy-handed editorial practice that you seem to believe is justifiable. I trust the spark of truth enough to manifest itself to allow others to speak their minds. That, to me, is a Baha'i principle, sorely neglected in your handling of my post. I believe it is legitimate use of the newsgroup to discuss the moderators' procedures for manipulating discussion. > > especially in this regard. [At the insistence of the "moderator," the best recent > > evidence of this in my experience is the censoring of this posting > > the first time I submitted it. As a pre-Reformation, or non-Reformation culture, Iran > > has the typical tendency to disallow the free exchange of opinion. IMHO, this cultural > > predilection is shared by SOME Iranian Baha'is. How could it not be?] > > and > > > [Once again forced by the CENSOR, I apparently need to point outthat > > Iran (Baha'u'llah seems to have noticed this), as a culture, does not > > value the free exchange of ideas.] > > Strike these and incorporate your parenthetical comments into the main body > of your post and I would be happy to post this to the newsgroup. > Your request to strike these is so as not to draw attention to your flawed handling of my posting. You're now merely trying to protect yourself from the possible censure you have earned. I'm not out to get YOU. Don't get paranoid. It's policy that permits ANY moderator to do what you have that concerns me. I believe that policy, in context, is worthy of discussion, indeed, essential. Your request to include my parenthetical comments constitutes another request to obscure further the real issue. Your attempt to protect yourself at the cost of silencing me. > Dick Detweiler > co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai > rdetweil@primenet.com > -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester, Michigan USA >From - Thu Nov 14 06:37:42 1996 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.44) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Wed, 13 Nov 1996 07:21:48 -0500 Message-ID: <3289BEEC.27DF@moa.net> Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 07:28:28 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Haukness CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: Reviewing and Freedom of Speech and Thought References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Another excellent example, apparently, of the abuse of your laughable little powers as a "moderator." You're interfering too much in the CONTENT of the message. John Haukness wrote: > > Dear Rick: After reviewing my message I find my tone and objectivity, is > quite more temperate and reserved than many other posts. I find > soc.religion's moderating policy to lean towards the left ideology. > > On Sun, 10 Nov 1996, Rick Boatright wrote: > > > Dear John, (and copied to Frederick) > > > > I have already asked Frederick to decrease the quote in the message > > he sent to the newsgroup and to which you are replying. Could we, > > perhaps let you two continue this in private email, or perhaps you > > both would like to prepare new summeries of your positions for the > > newsgroup? These messages with their extremely lenthy quoted > > context violate the signal-to-noise ratio that the newsgroup > > generally strives for. > > > > Rick Boatright > > co-moderator > > soc.religion.bahai > > > > > > Date: Sun, 10 Nov 1996 11:18:02 -0600 (CST) > > From: John Haukness > > To: Frederick Glaysher <@moa.net> > > Cc: soc-religion-bahai@uunet.uu.net > > Subject: Re: Reviewing and Freedom of Speech and Thought > > > > > > > > On Sun, 10 Nov 1996, Frederick Glaysher wrote: > > > > > John Haukness wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Friends: One can see me as anti-whatever they want. The writings of > > > > the Guardian make it clear to me that the american separation of Church > > > > and state is based on fear and will fade away. > > > > > > It's based on fear of the harsh realities of historical experience--often > > > bloody. The Guardian is more nuanced. > > > > And now we live in the Day that will not be followed by nite! Also, we > > as much historical episodes of bood baths as a result of secular > > behaviors so do you want also to separate the secular from the > > secular based on using the same logic? have> > As far as equating > > > > Religion and state as one, being common anti intellectual sentiment, I am > > > > familiar with a long list of Baha'i's arguing this, many who have > > > > published far more than I have- I wish people would start studying Shoghi > > > > Effendi with an open mind, and Abdul Baha's statements on education. > > > > > > > > Of course my friends William and John Hatcher have put this issue to > > > > rest, safe ground, as with their publishing record, it is hard to call > > > > them anti-intellectual. From Shoghi Effendi: "As the Baha'i > > > > Administrative Order rapidly expands throughout the world it behooves > > > > everyone associated with it to familiarize himself with its principles > > > > to understand its import and to put its precepts into practice. The > > > > divinely ordained institutions of the Local Spriityal Assembly operates > > > > at the first levels of human society and is the basic administrative unit > > > > of Bahaullah's World Order." So how are you going to separate religion > > > > from Bahaullah's World Order, an Order, Bahaullah has placed the state in? > > > > > > > > > > I made no such suggestion. > > > The suggestion of your post was that Western secularism's separation > > of church and state was good, I assummed you were applying that it still > > is necessary. > > > > > > > > > Well, John, you sure know how to ignore unpleasant facts and dispense with > > > 400 years of religious and social history triumphantly. > > > As I have said, there is no conclusive evidence that the separation of > > church and state have provided the security you are attributing, for > > the>past 400 years there are as many wars, forced famines and the like > > among church against church and state against state, Likewise being > > ignored are all the successful ventures of cooperation the past 400 > > years of religion and state; but regardless, that was then and now > > is now. What stikes me, is that with keen insight, (I would shure like > > to hear from the readers who already have noticed the following) one > > can begin to see the faint glimmers, that secular society and religious > > society are beginning to come upon, what the Hatcher's so elequantly > > wrote about, that religion is inseparable from science, they are married > > interwoven in the foundation. (I am not saying there are not appropriate > > manmade separations, in man's need for efficiency and specialization > > one needs to make artificial separations all the time, but if you look > > at Shoghi Effendi's writings on the Assemblies and Houses of Justice, > > and Abdul Baha's on schools, you can clearly see, that at the foundation > > level, religion and state are complimentary, and that the Local House of > > Justice, and Baha'i School are the foundation institutions of the New > > World Order state. > > All the best! > > > > > > > Your post seems to me to be ladened with the anti-intellectualism that > > > > > has become characteristic of the thinking of many Baha'is. Your > > > > > conclusions don't appear to me to be supported by the Baha'i Writings. > > > > > > > > > > Given modern religious history, since the 1600s really, Western > > > > > secularism has quite rightly that the separation of religion from > > > > > the state is in everyone's best interest. > > > > > > > > > > The Baha'i Faith has yet sufficiently to prove otherwise. > > > > > > > > > > -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester, Michigan USA From: "Rick Boatright" Organization: Topeka Business Computers To: Frederick Glaysher <@MOA.net> Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 10:13:19 -0600 Subject: Re: The Integrity of Bahai Marriage (revised) Reply-to: boatright@cjnetworks.com CC: srb-mods@bcca.org Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.31) X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Dear Frederick, A real, true _question_. Did you mean for this to go out to the newsgroup? The humor is apparent, the advice is probebly reasonable, but I am forced to wonder if you really ment the post to go to the newsgroup. It seems too susceptable to te kind of mis-interpretation that gets rwars started..... I therefore suspect that you ment this for private email. Rick Boatright co-moderator soc.religion.bahai > To: soc-religion-bahai@uunet.uu.net > From: FG <@MOA.net> > Subject: Re: The Integrity of Bahai Marriage (revised) > Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 09:45:16 -0500 > Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A. > To: karl1971@aol.com > Cc: @MOA.net > karl1971@aol.com wrote: > > [clip] > > > The believers of Baha'u'llah have a Faith of integrity. Unlike the world > > that's falling apart around us, the ones who who believe in Baha'u'llah > > make love, not war. > > > > One of the most important ways we do this is by fulfilling a legitimate > > quest to marry, always confident each and everyone of us has the potential > > to be a partner of a beautiful spiritual match made in heaven. > > > > In a Bahai Marriage: > > > > We seek nothing less than a partner with patience, who believes in dreams, > > justice, miracles, and aspirations who will spend every one of his or her > > most physically intimate moments with one and only one for the rest of his > > or her life. > > > > We seek nothing less than a world where every father and mother is > > completely satisfied with who they have for a son-in-law or > > daughter-in-law. > > > > We seek nothing less than a fellow beauty of the opposite sex who respects > > his or her body and doesn't smoke dope or drink booze or have some > > loathsome addiction. > > > > We seek nothing less than someone who always had high standards of > > justice, integrity, dignity, and morality, and has always been sensitive > > and intelligent, even having been raised among sick people and having gone > > through hell in a handbasket. > > > > We seek nothing less than beautiful love making experiences with standards > > of integrity that free us from the shackles of a promiscuous world. > > > > We seek nothing less than a world full of pairs of men and women of good > > taste who legitimately receive and satisfy each other's desires for > > sensual affection. > > > > > > > > -- sincerely > > > > -- Karl > > > Karl, man to man, you need to get married! Let me give you a little unsolicited > advice, if you don't mind. Don't choose one of these half-dead Baha'i women, the > self-righteous zealot type. Find a real woman with some blood flowing through her > veins.... > > -- > Frederick Glaysher > Rochester, Michigan USA > Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 08:07:05 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: boatright@cjnetworks.com CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: The Integrity of Bahai Marriage (revised) References: <199611171601.KAA08931@topeka.cjnetworks.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Rick Boatright wrote: > > Dear Frederick, > > A real, true _question_. Did you mean for this to go out to the > newsgroup? The humor is apparent, the advice is probebly reasonable, > but I am forced to wonder if you really ment the post to go to the > newsgroup. It seems too susceptable to te kind of mis-interpretation > that gets rwars started..... I therefore suspect that you ment > this for private email. > > Rick Boatright > co-moderator > soc.religion.bahai > You "suspect" incorrectly. I certainly intended for my message to be posted. I'd appreciate if you'd act as a moderator and not a censor. I find you're interfering in my communication offensive. Post it. >From - Tue Nov 19 04:56:35 1996 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.39) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Mon, 18 Nov 1996 08:02:27 -0500 Message-ID: <32905FF7.25F8@moa.net> Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 08:09:11 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Richard C. Detweiler" CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: The Integrity of Bahai Marriage (revised) References: <199611171607.JAA22964@primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Richard C. Detweiler wrote: > > Not suitable for the group. Tell hi mto take it to e-mail. > > Dick D. > Dick, I mean this in all seriousness. You're a fascist pig. I'd say that to your face, fellow.... > > From news@news2.acs.oakland.edu Sun Nov 17 07:43:51 1996 > > Received: from bcca.org (root@bounty.bcca.org [208.133.44.40]) by primenet.com (8.8.2/8.8.2) with SMTP id HAA12476 for ; Sun, 17 Nov 1 > > Received: from relay6.UU.NET by bcca.org with smtp > > (Smail3.1.29.1 #3) id m0vP8Rl-0008esC; Sun, 17 Nov 96 09:43 EST > > Received: from news2.acs.oakland.edu by relay6.UU.NET with ESMTP > > (peer crosschecked as: news2.acs.oakland.edu [141.210.10.152]) > > id QQbqfq06145; Sun, 17 Nov 1996 09:43:44 -0500 (EST) > > Received: (from news@localhost) by news2.acs.oakland.edu (8.7.6/8.7.4) id JAA19072; Sun, 17 Nov 1996 09:43:51 -0500 > > To: soc-religion-bahai@uunet.uu.net > > Path: ppp-pm01-dy-29.ouhub.moa.net > > From: FG <@MOA.net> > > Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai > > Subject: Re: The Integrity of Bahai Marriage (revised) > > Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 09:45:16 -0500 > > Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A. > > Lines: 53 > > Message-ID: <328F24FC.253@moa.net> > > References: <"uiWV9.A.DUF.dSkjy"@bounty> > > NNTP-Posting-Host: zeus.moa.net > > Mime-Version: 1.0 > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) > > To: karl1971@aol.com > > CC: @MOA.net > > > > karl1971@aol.com wrote: > > > [clip] > > > > > The believers of Baha'u'llah have a Faith of integrity. Unlike the world > > > that's falling apart around us, the ones who who believe in Baha'u'llah > > > make love, not war. > > > > > > One of the most important ways we do this is by fulfilling a legitimate > > > quest to marry, always confident each and everyone of us has the potential > > > to be a partner of a beautiful spiritual match made in heaven. > > > > > > In a Bahai Marriage: > > > > > > We seek nothing less than a partner with patience, who believes in dreams, > > > justice, miracles, and aspirations who will spend every one of his or her > > > most physically intimate moments with one and only one for the rest of his > > > or her life. > > > > > > We seek nothing less than a world where every father and mother is > > > completely satisfied with who they have for a son-in-law or > > > daughter-in-law. > > > > > > We seek nothing less than a fellow beauty of the opposite sex who respects > > > his or her body and doesn't smoke dope or drink booze or have some > > > loathsome addiction. > > > > > > We seek nothing less than someone who always had high standards of > > > justice, integrity, dignity, and morality, and has always been sensitive > > > and intelligent, even having been raised among sick people and having gone > > > through hell in a handbasket. > > > > > > We seek nothing less than beautiful love making experiences with standards > > > of integrity that free us from the shackles of a promiscuous world. > > > > > > We seek nothing less than a world full of pairs of men and women of good > > > taste who legitimately receive and satisfy each other's desires for > > > sensual affection. > > > > > > > > > > > > -- sincerely > > > > > > -- Karl > > > > > > Karl, man to man, you need to get married! Let me give you a little unsolicited > > advice, if you don't mind. Don't choose one of these half-dead Baha'i women, the > > self-righteous zealot type. Find a real woman with some blood flowing through her > > veins.... > > > > -- > > Frederick Glaysher > > Rochester, Michigan USA > > -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester, Michigan USA --------------B22101EF4E Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="srb10-19.txt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="srb10-19.txt" Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 06:35:36 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: boatright@cjnetworks.com CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community References: <199611181639.KAA16177@topeka.cjnetworks.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Rick Boatright wrote: > > Dear Frederick, > > I was trying to say two unrelated things. > > First, that was a really nice message. Well thought, cohesive, good > writing, I was trying to give you a compliment. > I don't need nor want your unsolicted editorial comments BIG BROTHER. I want the freedom to speak the conscience God has given me and the freedom to be responded to by OTHERS' unconstrained consciences. Stay out of the way. > Second, I was expressing my gratitude that the conflict between you > and the moderators a couple of weeks ago did not result in your > leaving the newsgroup. I appriciate your continued participation. > I feel nothing but contempt for the way you and Richard Detweiler have handled my postings. Make no mistake in that regard. Neither one of you, or anybody, has the prescience to exercise such power and control over others' consciences. The abuse of your power is a proper subject for discussion on the newsgroup. > > Rick Boatright wrote: > > > > > > Really nice message. Good work. Thanks for hanging in there with > > > us Frederick. I really appriciate it. > > > > > > Rick Boatright > > > > > > > Frankly, I don't know what you mean here. > > > > -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester, Michigan USA Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 06:47:54 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: boatright@cjnetworks.com CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: The Integrity of Bahai Marriage (revised) References: <199611181657.KAA17797@topeka.cjnetworks.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Rick Boatright wrote: > > And in your internal model, what is the difference between a > moderator and a censor? See previous message to you. I asked a polite question. Did you intend > to post this? I sent it to the newsgroup, didn't I? Lots of people post things they didn't intend to, and > we catch a lot of those. In such cases, you'd be properly assisting discussion. They are generally greatful. I didn't > complain that you characterize Baha'i women as bloodless. Why should you? What business is it of yours? I'm not writing to you, nor do I want to. Yet here I am stuck in a non-productive task dealing with you and Richard.... I probebly > should. Why should you. Who the hell are you? I didn't complain that your comment was bigoted and > offensive to the vast majority of sexually active and spirited Baha'i > women, though I probebly should. A complaint you're entitled to make. In public. In response to me on the Net. Not shunting anything YOU don't like off into obscurity. Let them tell you that themselves. > I am saying the freedom for them to say so should be extended to them. You are robbing them of that God-given freedom of expression of conscience. > I asked a polite question. > > Lighten up. > Don't tell me to lighten up when you and Richard are perverting and screening the newsgroup self-righteous, prudishly suppressing opinions you don't like. Again, who are you two to make such decisions? Do you really imagine God has given you the ability to make such judgements? > Don't try to put a nazi mantle on my shoulders. > It's already there, Rick. Wake up. > Rick Boatright > co-moderator > soc.religion.bahai > > -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester, Michigan USA >From - Wed Nov 20 10:10:58 1996 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.58) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Wed, 20 Nov 1996 08:46:37 -0500 Message-ID: <32930D52.2FC8@moa.net> Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 08:53:22 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Richard C. Detweiler" CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community References: <199611191434.HAA23362@primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Richard C. Detweiler wrote: > > Dear Mr. Glaysher, > > Thank you for your submission to soc.religion.bahai. > > As your post contains sarcastic comments and argues with the > moderation of the group in a demeaning and disrespectful manner, > it will not be posted. These issues are also peripheral to > the purpose of the newsgroup in any case. > > If you are seeking full vent to your frustrations, I suggest > news.admin or talk.religion.misc on the Internet as the first > is appropriate and the other is unmoderated. This newsgroup, > however, is for discussion of the Baha'i Faith in an atmosphere > of respect and free from topical tangents of all kinds. > > Thank you for participating, > > Dick Detweiler > rdetweil@primenet.com > Co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai > I'm not at all surprised Richardt.... Fascists and totalitarians have always sought to conceal and manipulate reality. > ================ Begin submitted post ========================= > > > To: soc-religion-bahai@uunet.uu.net > > Path: ppp-pm01-dy-26.ouhub.moa.net > > From: FG <@MOA.net> > > Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai > > Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community > > Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 05:44:11 -0500 > > Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A. > > Lines: 68 > > Message-ID: <32918F7B.76FA@moa.net> > > References: <"-ER8GC.A.gTH.UGkiy"@bounty> <56qogd$rii@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> > > NNTP-Posting-Host: zeus.moa.net > > Mime-Version: 1.0 > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) > > To: Sian Smith > > CC: @MOA.net > > > > Sian Smith wrote: > > > > > > In article <"-ER8GC.A.gTH.UGkiy"@bounty>, Frederick Glaysher <@moa.net> says: > > > > > > > > > > [snip extracts from previous messages about being disillusioned] > > > > > > >> : >As you know, the Bahai Faith doesn't have priests, preachers, or any > > > >> : >individuals who have the responsibility of telling people what to do, unlike > > > >> : >churches. However, from my experience I've discovered associating with > > > >> : >"Bahais" and not expecting them to play the roles of surrogate priests and > > > >> : > surrogate parish to be incredibly wishful and foolish thinking. > > > >> > > > >> : Since the Baha'i Community does not have a paid clergy, every Baha'is is > > > >> : to perform the service that the clergy of previous religions performed. We > > > >> : are each to study the Holy Writings, and to teach and deepen others in the > > > >> : Faith. It may be hard for one of a traditional religious background that > > > >> : does not encourage study to take responsibility for one's own spiritual > > > >> : growth, but we all have to struggle to change our shortcomings. > > > >> > > > > > > > >Miguel, you utterly miss Karl's well-taken point here again. It's the abuse of > > > >the responsibility that is the crux of his observation. Power corrupts. > > > >And it can corrupt Baha'is as well as Christians, Muslims, Nazis, etc. > > > > > > Excuse my ignorance, but WHO in the Baha'i Faith has any "power"? I've > > > never met anyone in the Faith who has power of any kind (i.e: power in > > > the sense that they can exert some kind of binding influence over > > > another person). > > > > I'll give you an example: The "moderators" of this newsgroup. They've > > censored a number of messages I've tried to post during the last few weeks. > > They have the "power" to determine what you and everyone else OUT THERE > > reads.... It that's not control and power to SHAPE thought and opinion what > > is it? > > > > Maybe the previous writer was referring to some other > > > kind of power - in which case I would be grateful to receive a > > > "definition", so to speak, of this power and how it compares to the > > > "definition" I had in mind which, in my own humble opinion, is the sort > > > of power which is contained in the assertion "power corrupts". > > > > > > > The "moderators" power is corrupting and inhibiting the exchange of ideas > > on this newsgroup. When I attempted to bring this to the attention of > > contributors by posting a message to this effect earlier, I was told > > > > THOU SHALT NOT QUESTION THE AUTHORITY AND POWER OF THE "MODERATORS." > > Kitab-i-Oppression, page 999. > > > > > The only person who has any kind of power over my spiritual development > > > is ME. I cannot abdicate that responsibility to someone else. > > > > > > > There's a sense in which you're right. But secular and religious history > > is wracked with the abuse of POWER and the devastating results of it.... > > It always began in little ways.... A little at a time.... People shrugged.... > > Let's not make waves.... Let's build UNITY! > > > > > Loving greetings > > > > > > Sian Smith > > > Wellington > > > New Zealand > > > > -- > > Frederick Glaysher > > Rochester, Michigan USA > > > > ================ End submitted post =========================== -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester, Michigan USA Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 09:26:05 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Maya Kaathryn Bohnhoff CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community References: <"BYWGWC.A.PdB.pm0iy"@bounty> <328C806E.295C@moa.net> <32908412.2C44@oro.net> <3291A53E.78A1@moa.net> <3291CC64.9F@oro.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 Maya Kaathryn Bohnhoff wrote: > > Frederick Glaysher wrote: > > > > It > > > may be failing on my part if I don't try to correct > > > their view of me, but it is a far grosser failing if > > > I resent them for their views and let myself become > > > embittered by it. I won't change anything by lashing > > > out in anger, or by intentional alienation. Worst of all > > > if I separate myself from the entire Baha'i community > > > and Baha'u'allah because of these people, I'm only > > > doing myself a disservice. If they're really my enemies, > > > then my being a "weak sister" would be quite pleasing > > > to them. > > > > > > > You're a lovely soul. A more pious answer than I can muster. > > Piety has nothing to do with it. It's common sense. If we are > to unify, we must be unified. Unity can never be served by > anger or alienation. The only way to get rid of darkness is > to throw light on it. More darkness only conduces to, well... > more darkness. > > To my mind, after twenty years in the Baha'i Faith, the "unity" is a fraud, doesn't exist.... > > How will they deal with such things? What are the mechanisms? > > For "Evil is the Nature of Mankind." > > The mechanisms are those clearly laid down by Baha'u'llah, > Abdu'l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi. They involve a certain > giving up of self, consultation, respect, courtesy and > other attributes with which God has fully invested us. If these are the "mechanisms," they're insufficient. > I have served on assemblies for over 15 years. I've seen > this at work. Sometimes we need reminders, sometimes we > fail utterly, but the fact that we try is of paramount > importance and has great power. > > ""Evil is the Nature of Mankind?" Not according to > Baha'u'llah: > > "O Son of the Wondrous Vision! I have breathed upon thee > a breath of My own Spirit that thou mayest be My lover. > Why hast thou forsaken me and sought a beloved other > than Me?" > > "O Son of Spirit! Noble have I created thee, yet thou > hast abased thyself. Rise then, unto that for which > thou wast created." > > These passages and others make it clear that it is > our nature to be noble. Antinomy is presupposed. There is tragedy in Baha'u'llah's writings, tragedy minds like yours (I mean no insult), typically fail to understand. The other part is nurture. > We learn deceit and we teach it to others. We learn > hatred and we pass it along like a disease. > > > > Buddha said: Hatred does not cease by hatred, hatred ceases > > > by love. > > > > > > > Tell that to the Tibetans who have had their whole civilization > > wiped out.... > > They understand this better than anyone. What, after all, > nearly wiped out their civilization? Hatred and fear of what > was different and not controllable by the powers that would > be. > Even the Dali Lama has had second thoughts.... Much too late. > > They must. Let's be practical. What though when Assemblies self- > > righteously abuse their authority and persecute individuals? That > > can happen too, and then what? > > If a person feels he is being persecuted he has recourse to > the Auxiliary Board, another spiritual assembly, the National > Spiritual Assembly or even the House of Justice. Any and all > of these avenues of redress is open to the individual. Of > course, there is always the possibility that the individual's > perception that he's being "persecuted" is false. It's never > pleasant to be wrong about something, less pleasant to have > someone call your attention to it and ask that your behavior > change. I know this from personal experience. > > > > > As > > > an individual, I still had to treat the subject of consultation > > > with compassion. > > > > > > > A very dehumanizing phrase, Maya. It seems to me. This human tendency > > worries me. Don't tell me to pray about it. > > I'm sorry. I certainly didn't intend it to be. I intended it to be > neutral. Look, I have served on assemblies long enough to have > seen a gamut of personal problems and situations arise. I have > NEVER known an assembly to EVER lose sight of the fact that > what they were dealing with wasn't a problem, but a person. > Usually, the person is much loved, and their situation causes > the members of the institution very personal grief. > > The sad thing is that the soul involved doesn't always realize > this. And regardless of the actual feelings of the assembly > members, treats them as if they were indeed, a persecuting > force. One young man an assembly I sat on counseled had a > drug problem for which he refused to get help. He viewed > the mere fact that the assembly called him for consultation > as an act of personal persecution. He thought the people on > the assembly were "out to get him," when in fact, every one > of them loved him, valued him and wanted him to be well both > spiritually and physically. After one meeting in which we had > attempted to talk to him, several members of the assembly burst > into tears. > Anything in the name of love? Nine amateur spiritual psychologists are just going to talk someone straight? I've seen it attempted too with similar results.... > > > > Reasonable. Many in the Faith thinks this way. I do too in some regards. > > But then we're no longer in a world of ideal beauty.... > > But Baha'u'llah is clear that His teachings and the power > released by His revelation have the capacity to light that > spark He says lies latent within us. I've seen what that > spark can accomplish in the lives of ordinary human beings. > We have within our grasp the means of bringing that world > of ideal beauty out of the realm of spirit and onto this > earth. The scriptures of God's faith in every age proclaim > this unequivocally. > And have always failed.... By there own self-definitions, failed. Why? What is it about human nature? Do you actually believe the Baha'i Faith will do any better? I don't. I don't believe the deepest suggestions of the writings suggest any such thing. > > My post, I believe, was about the individual capacity to sully anything > > and everything in "this world of gloom." > > May I call you Eeyore? :) (Sorry, couldn't help myself.) > I tried to post a reply to on the newsgroup. I used the same phrase in the copy I mailed you: "utterly naive" Richard Detweiler has banned my post because it might hurt your feelings--not my intention. A good example of the self-righteous Fascism build the new world order inspires in Baha'i fanatics.... Calling me Eeyore doesn't hurt my feelings. I have, unlike fanatics, a sense of humor and relish the variety of human temperaments God has so blessed the world with. Yours is not mine, that is all. Do the Faith a favor, write the CENSOR and tell him to respect the human conscience of others, not only mine. > In the Kitab-i-Iqan, Baha'u'llah says that when we truly > accept Him, recognize Him, the Holy Spirit will confer > upon us "a new ear, a new eye, a new heart and a new mind." > We are capable of being transformed, and the Word of God > (and only the Word of God ) is capable of causing that > transformation. > Beautiful metaphors. Understand? > I am deeply sorry that your experience within the > Baha'i community has been so negative. The lack of complexity is what concerns me, and the lack of acknowledgement of proportion. But every > negative experience in life offers us more than one > way to react. I've often marveled how adversity can > make one person opt for a life of misery and > recrimination (it was mother's fault, it was God's > fault, it was...) and another come to the decision that > they will simply NOT let that adversity steal their > joy, or their life. > > I know there are Baha'i communities that are ruled > by a small clique of set in stone believers, or > groups where a number of petty-minded souls seem > to have things in control. Indeed, I have a friend > who lived in such a community until a new Baha'i > family moved in and changed the dynamics of the > situation. My friend chose to deal with the problem > by withdrawing. The new friends set about and > accomplished the renewal of that community by > opening their house to firesides, getting the > assembly to meet, teaching the faith, and most > important, showering everyone in their community, > including those set in stone souls with love. They > gave the community the medicine Baha'u'llah > prescribed and saved the patient. > The usual answer. Lacking complexity. > You may argue against the idea that hatred ceases > only through love, but this is a prescription from > a Physician who knows far more about the ills of > human kind than either you or I. > It has never truly healed the patient. Baha'u'llah, unlike Baha'is, understands the condition is terminal.... > Mir, Maya > +----------------------------------------+ > | Maya Kaathryn Bohnhoff syntax@oro.net | > +----------------------------------------+ > | "The beginning of all things is the | > | knowledge of God." - Baha'u'llah | > +----------------------------------------+ -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester, Michigan USA From: "Richard C. Detweiler" Message-Id: <199611191443.HAA24131@primenet.com> Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community To: @moa.net (Frederick Glaysher) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 07:43:07 -0700 (MST) Cc: srb-mods@bcca.org In-Reply-To: <3291959D.7D9C@moa.net> from "Frederick Glaysher" at Nov 19, 96 06:10:21 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Dear Mr. Glaysher, Thank you for your submission to soc.religion.bahai. I ask that you strike the comment "utterly naive" as an attack on the previous poster. If you would like to say you disagree, that would be acceptable. Also, your sarcastic comments in the following paragraph: > Excellent point. A profound moral problem arises here. How can the individual > maintain the moral strength of character to resist abuse and manipulation when > power can be wielded in such a way as to undermine that very ability? To > discredit it. Ban it. Brand it as outlaw, heretic, disruptive, anti-social, > working against the realization, e.g., of the communist Kingdom of Freedom. If you would turn this into a meaningful criticism based on actual events than the readership could evaluate and enter into a dialog with you on these events. Again, let me make it clear that if you have a grievance with the Faith, you are free to air it here, but it must be the facts and your reasons for the grievance presented and not belittling insults, broad stereotypes, and blatant sarcasm. Thank you for participating, Dick Detweiler rdetweil@primenet.com Co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai ================ Begin submitted post ========================= > To: soc-religion-bahai@uunet.uu.net > Path: ppp-pm01-dy-26.ouhub.moa.net > From: FG <@moa.net> > Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai > Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community > Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 06:10:21 -0500 > Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A. > Lines: 78 > Message-ID: <3291959D.7D9C@moa.net> > References: <"-ER8GC.A.gTH.UGkiy"@bounty> <56qoi9$rmd@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> > NNTP-Posting-Host: zeus.moa.net > Mime-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) > To: Anne Furlong > CC: @moa.net > > Anne Furlong wrote: > > > > The reference to power probably helps poinpoint the difficulty some of > > the friends have here. The point is that in this Faith, for the first > > time in religious history, power and authority have been intentionally > > and effectively severed. The authority to make decisions, to legislate, > > to guide, rests with the elected institutions of the Faith. However, > > these institutions - and the individuals who make them up - have no power > > whatsoever. > > "No power whatsoever": Utterly naive.... > > [clip] > > > > > Why do people become disillusioned with the community? with individuals? > > Well, we all know people who, by force of personality, or because of > > defects of character and personality, receive, demand, or desire > > acquiescence from other individuals. But note: if such people do in fact > > poison a community, who ultimately must take the responsibility? Power > > is not theirs to command: it is ceded to them by those who have not the > > wisdom or the courage to recognise that what is being asked is both > > contrary to the Faith, and ultimately impossible to give. > > > > Excellent point. A profound moral problem arises here. How can the individual > maintain the moral strength of character to resist abuse and manipulation when > power can be wielded in such a way as to undermine that very ability? To > discredit it. Ban it. Brand it as outlaw, heretic, disruptive, anti-social, > working against the realization, e.g., of the communist Kingdom of Freedom. > > > Yes, impossible: for since in the Administrative order which is > > Baha'u'llah's gift to the world, power and authority are divided, > > In theory, yes; in practice, I'm not convinced. > > then the > > efforts of a few misguided individuals to bring power and authority > > together in their own persons; or to build up factions; or to do anything, > > in fact, which is contravenes the spirit and the reality of the Covenant, > > are doomed to failure. 'Abdu'l-Baha said that the ocean of the Covenant > > will surge and surge until it casts the bodies of the (spiritually) dead > > onto the shore. We cannot ultimately harm the progress of the Cause, but > > can cut ourselves off from the abundant share of the blessings which > > obedience to the Covenant brings to us. > > > > If we are disillusioned with the community we live in, then our response > > will either add to the problem or be the start of its eradication. The > > whole purpose of consultation is to allow the individual to exercise > > responsibility - his power - within the "unit of civilization". > > What I am saying is that there are situations when it is not allowed. You're > too quick to leap over that fact for me. > > We are > > all going to be responsible for our actions to Baha'u'llah when we pass > > from this earth; are we going to plead the immaturity of others as the > > reason for our failure to love? > > > > Your dragging "love" into this confuses the issue. > > > Baha'u'llah did more than despise tyranny; in his Administrative Order, > > He, as the Divine Physician, prescribed the effective and permanent remedy. > > > > The point from the original post was in regard to the abuse of the remedy, > turning it into a cheap medicine show elixir. What then of the community > or individuals under that Tyranny? > > > All the best, > > > > Anne Furlong > > St John's Newfoundland Canada > > -- > Frederick Glaysher > Rochester, Michigan USA > ================ End submitted post =========================== Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 10:27:04 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Richard C. Detweiler" CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community References: <199611191434.HAA23362@primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Richard C. Detweiler wrote: > > Dear Mr. Glaysher, > > Thank you for your submission to soc.religion.bahai. > > As your post contains sarcastic comments and argues with the > moderation of the group in a demeaning and disrespectful manner, > it will not be posted. These issues are also peripheral to > the purpose of the newsgroup in any case. > False. They go to the heart of the matter, i.e., how it functions. > If you are seeking full vent to your frustrations, I suggest > news.admin or talk.religion.misc on the Internet as the first > is appropriate and the other is unmoderated. "Vent your frustrations" is in the same category as my "Utterly naive." I don't seek to deprive you of your conscience that apparently believes that. You may say what you wish. It won't hurt my little feelings. I believe you're again manipulating discussion in a dictatorial, oppressive manner unjustified by anything in the Baha'i Writings which you apparently cloak your shameless deeds in. This newsgroup, > however, is for discussion of the Baha'i Faith in an atmosphere > of respect and free from topical tangents of all kinds. > The abuse of the conscience of a member of the Baha'i Faith and, apparently regular practice of distortion and censorship is not a suitable topic? I can understand why you wouldn't wish to have anyone else know.... > Thank you for participating, > I'm not participating at all. You are self-righteous depriving me of that. You are also depriving others of hearing or disagreeing with my opinions. > Dick Detweiler > rdetweil@primenet.com > Co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai > > ================ Begin submitted post ========================= > > > To: soc-religion-bahai@uunet.uu.net > > Path: ppp-pm01-dy-26.ouhub.moa.net > > From: FG <@MOA.net> > > Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai > > Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community > > Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 05:44:11 -0500 > > Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A. > > Lines: 68 > > Message-ID: <32918F7B.76FA@moa.net> > > References: <"-ER8GC.A.gTH.UGkiy"@bounty> <56qogd$rii@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> > > NNTP-Posting-Host: zeus.moa.net > > Mime-Version: 1.0 > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) > > To: Sian Smith > > CC: @MOA.net > > > > Sian Smith wrote: > > > > > > In article <"-ER8GC.A.gTH.UGkiy"@bounty>, Frederick Glaysher <@moa.net> says: > > > > > > > > > > [snip extracts from previous messages about being disillusioned] > > > > > > >> : >As you know, the Bahai Faith doesn't have priests, preachers, or any > > > >> : >individuals who have the responsibility of telling people what to do, unlike > > > >> : >churches. However, from my experience I've discovered associating with > > > >> : >"Bahais" and not expecting them to play the roles of surrogate priests and > > > >> : > surrogate parish to be incredibly wishful and foolish thinking. > > > >> > > > >> : Since the Baha'i Community does not have a paid clergy, every Baha'is is > > > >> : to perform the service that the clergy of previous religions performed. We > > > >> : are each to study the Holy Writings, and to teach and deepen others in the > > > >> : Faith. It may be hard for one of a traditional religious background that > > > >> : does not encourage study to take responsibility for one's own spiritual > > > >> : growth, but we all have to struggle to change our shortcomings. > > > >> > > > > > > > >Miguel, you utterly miss Karl's well-taken point here again. It's the abuse of > > > >the responsibility that is the crux of his observation. Power corrupts. > > > >And it can corrupt Baha'is as well as Christians, Muslims, Nazis, etc. > > > > > > Excuse my ignorance, but WHO in the Baha'i Faith has any "power"? I've > > > never met anyone in the Faith who has power of any kind (i.e: power in > > > the sense that they can exert some kind of binding influence over > > > another person). > > > > I'll give you an example: The "moderators" of this newsgroup. They've > > censored a number of messages I've tried to post during the last few weeks. > > They have the "power" to determine what you and everyone else OUT THERE > > reads.... If that's not control and power to SHAPE thought and opinion what > > is it? > > > > Maybe the previous writer was referring to some other > > > kind of power - in which case I would be grateful to receive a > > > "definition", so to speak, of this power and how it compares to the > > > "definition" I had in mind which, in my own humble opinion, is the sort > > > of power which is contained in the assertion "power corrupts". > > > > > > > The "moderators" power is corrupting and inhibiting the exchange of ideas > > on this newsgroup. When I attempted to bring this to the attention of > > contributors by posting a message to this effect earlier, I was told > > > > THOU SHALT NOT QUESTION THE AUTHORITY AND POWER OF THE "MODERATORS." > > Kitab-i-Oppression, page 999. > > > > > The only person who has any kind of power over my spiritual development > > > is ME. I cannot abdicate that responsibility to someone else. > > > > > > > There's a sense in which you're right. But secular and religious history > > is wracked with the abuse of POWER and the devastating results of it.... > > It always began in little ways.... A little at a time.... People shrugged.... > > Let's not make ways.... Let's build UNITY! > > > > > Loving greetings > > > > > > Sian Smith > > > Wellington > > > New Zealand > > > > -- > > Frederick Glaysher > > Rochester, Michigan USA > > > = End submitted post =========================== YOU DEAR CENSORS have shown your true colors once again. >From - Wed Nov 20 13:57:47 1996 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.66) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Wed, 20 Nov 1996 10:25:30 -0500 Message-ID: <3293247F.2340@moa.net> Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 10:32:15 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Richard C. Detweiler" CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community References: <199611191443.HAA24131@primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Further response-- Your characterization of my comments as sarcastic is ludicrous. One may not be sarcastic in the Baha'i Faith? And you are too determine is toooooo SARCASTIC? Oh God, what a farce! Since you apparently don't understand the passage in question, I'm supposed to water in down for YOUR ignorance! I'm talking about the totalitarianism of the SOVIET UNION which you dangerously come close to. Again, I request that you post my message or pass it on to someone else who is not as fanatical as you. Richard C. Detweiler wrote: > > Dear Mr. Glaysher, > > Thank you for your submission to soc.religion.bahai. > > I ask that you strike the comment "utterly naive" as an attack > on the previous poster. If you would like to say you disagree, > that would be acceptable. > > Also, your sarcastic comments in the following paragraph: > > > Excellent point. A profound moral problem arises here. How can the individual > > maintain the moral strength of character to resist abuse and manipulation when > > power can be wielded in such a way as to undermine that very ability? To > > discredit it. Ban it. Brand it as outlaw, heretic, disruptive, anti-social, > > working against the realization, e.g., of the communist Kingdom of Freedom. > > If you would turn this into a meaningful criticism based on actual events > than the readership could evaluate and enter into a dialog with you on these > events. > > Again, let me make it clear that if you have a grievance with the Faith, > you are free to air it here, but it must be the facts and your reasons for > the grievance presented and not belittling insults, broad stereotypes, and > blatant sarcasm. > > Thank you for participating, > > Dick Detweiler > rdetweil@primenet.com > Co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai > > ================ Begin submitted post ========================= > > > To: soc-religion-bahai@uunet.uu.net > > Path: ppp-pm01-dy-26.ouhub.moa.net > > From: FG <@moa.net> > > Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai > > Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community > > Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 06:10:21 -0500 > > Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A. > > Lines: 78 > > Message-ID: <3291959D.7D9C@moa.net> > > References: <"-ER8GC.A.gTH.UGkiy"@bounty> <56qoi9$rmd@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> > > NNTP-Posting-Host: zeus.moa.net > > Mime-Version: 1.0 > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) > > To: Anne Furlong > > CC: @moa.net > > > > Anne Furlong wrote: > > > > > > The reference to power probably helps poinpoint the difficulty some of > > > the friends have here. The point is that in this Faith, for the first > > > time in religious history, power and authority have been intentionally > > > and effectively severed. The authority to make decisions, to legislate, > > > to guide, rests with the elected institutions of the Faith. However, > > > these institutions - and the individuals who make them up - have no power > > > whatsoever. > > > > "No power whatsoever": Utterly naive.... > > > > [clip] From: FG <@MOA.net> Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Subject: New Sacred Text Unveiled Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 08:43:04 -0500 Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A. Lines: 20 Message-ID: <32945C68.3378@moa.net> References: <56tfo6$cgg@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> <56vdgi$eth@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: zeus.moa.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) CC: @MOA.net X-Mozilla-Status: 0004 Apparently, a new text has been discovered. Or perhaps it has always been there. I, and others, apparently, missed it. It was difficult to see. Alas, I, we, are so woefully human.... Blind and stumbling through this morass.... The crucial passage in the newly discovered Revealed Word is this: THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT SARCASM! There are sensitive plants. We mustn't hurt their feelings. I beg all of you to meditate profoundly on this koan. It has the power to change the world.... -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester, Michigan USA From: FG <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Richard C. Detweiler" CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community References: <199611202214.PAA26784@primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Richard C. Detweiler wrote: > > > > > > > The charter of the newsgroup states that "the Newsgroup will be subject > > > to standards of Baha'i consultation whose salient features include frank > > > yet respectful statement of views and the concerted, open-minded search > > > for truth." It is on this statement in the charter and this statement > > > alone that I have rejected some of your posts. > > > > I don't believe this is true. "Utterly naive" refers to the idea, not to > > its author as an insult. You're the one who has construed that way. I can't > > even understand what could possibly be WRONG with your objection to the > > second passage in the post in question. > > > > Thank you for pointing this out - I hadn't thought of it like that. Then what's YOUR problem. Post it or suppress it. But I > hope you can see that if I (and the other mods) can be confused on this > point, it will probably be the case with many in the readership as well. You're assumption is that OTHERS will be as imperceptive as you. And hence you BAN ME! > Our tendency is to err on the side of not posting things when they may be > misinterpretted by the readership as being attacks or insults. Even after admitting the ERROR is on your part? Not logical. You're trying to justify your heavy-handed will to BAN. That way, > the respectful tone is maintained. There is nothing disrespectful about either passage YOU'VE questioned. Remember that the readership includes > people from all backgrounds and cultures. Irrelevant justification. You're groping for excuses. I have been surprised many times > when seemingly innocuous comments have offended. Nothing would then ever get posted in your scenario. Unless it meets your prejudices. I try to make sure the > chance of this is kept to a minimum. > I don't know that. You're suppression to posting ratio would be required to make that determination; it would have to be independently confirmed. > And, if I may, don't you think "I believe you are being naive because..." > makes your points easier for other to accept and continue to engage you > rather than a brusque "Utterly naive"? Please think about that. I > assume your reason for being here is to share your viewpoint with others. > You sound like a schoolmarm. A self-righteous, prudish old bag. What gives you the right? God's charter? It doesn't come from Him. > > Your attempt to hide behind the newsgroup charter strikes me as a mere > > stratagem to conceal what you're actually doing: CENSORING. > > > > Once again, Mr Glaysher - my job is not to supress ideas but to make sure > those ideas are presented in a respectful manner conducive to frank and > unfettered consultation. > You're completely fettering my consultation. But that's okay. You possess the prescience to know better. Again, you're groping for justification of your suppressing the presentation of my views to others. > I continue to await the chance to post your thoughts in the submittals in > question when they are appropriate for posting to the newsgroup. > Mr. Detweiler, you appear to me to be completely shameless and drunk on your little power to muzzle people who don't echo your opinions. > Dick Detweiler > co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai Again, I ask you to post my message since as you acknowledge above its about IDEAS. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester, Michigan USA From: "Richard C. Detweiler" Message-Id: <199611221548.IAA01560@primenet.com> Subject: Re: New Sacred Text Unveiled To: @MOA.net (Frederick Glaysher) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 08:48:14 -0700 (MST) Cc: srb-mods@bcca.org In-Reply-To: <3295A80D.1168@moa.net> from "Frederick Glaysher" at Nov 22, 96 08:18:05 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Dear Mr. Glaysher, Sorry for the inadvertent send on the last message. The following will not be posted to the newsgroup as it is disrespectful in tone and sarcastic in the extreme. As a Baha'i, perhaps you will get some value out of the following excerpts from Baha'u'llah's Writings. I provide them as insight into why the moderators enforce the policies they have in place. "O ye beloved of the Lord! Commit not that which defileth the limpid stream of love or destroyeth the sweet fragrance of friendship. By the righteousness of the Lord! We were created to show love one to another and not perversity and rancor. Take pride not in love for yourselves but in love for your fellow-creatures. Glory not in love for your country, but in love for all mankind." - Baha'u'llah, Tablets of Baha'u'llah 138 (quoted in "Unrestrained as the Wind", section on "Demonstrating love and fellowship", p 87 ). "Say: Human utterance is an essence which aspireth to exert its influence and needeth moderation. As to its influence, this is conditional upon refinement which in turn is dependent upon hearts which are detached and pure. As to its moderation, this hath to be combined with tact and wisdom as prescribed in the Holy Scriptures and Tablets. Meditate upon that which hath streamed forth from the heaven of the Will of thy Lord, He Who is the Source of all grace, that thou mayest grasp the intended meaning which is enshrined in the sacred depths of the Holy Writings." - Baha'u'llah, Tablet of Wisdom, Tablets of Baha'u'llah, p. 143 "For the tongue is a smouldering fire, and excess of speech a deadly poison. Material fire consumeth the body, whereas the fire of the tongue devoureth both heart and soul. The force of the former lasteth but for a time, whilst the effects of the latter endure a century." - Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 193 Thank you for participating, Dick Detweiler rdetweil@primenet.com Co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai ================ Begin submitted post ========================= > To: soc-religion-bahai@uunet.uu.net > Path: ppp-pm01-dy-11.ouhub.moa.net > From: FG <@MOA.net> > Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai > Subject: New Sacred Text Unveiled > Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 08:18:05 -0500 > Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A. > Lines: 20 > Message-ID: <3295A80D.1168@moa.net> > References: <56vhv1$p1e@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> > NNTP-Posting-Host: zeus.moa.net > Mime-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) > CC: @MOA.net > > Apparently, a new text has been discovered. Or perhaps it has always > been there. I, and others, apparently, missed it. It was difficult > to see. Alas, I, we, are so woefully human.... Blind and stumbling > through this morass.... > > The crucial passage in the newly discovered Revealed Word is this: > > > THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT SARCASM! > > > There are sensitive plants. We mustn't hurt their feelings. > > I beg all of you to meditate profoundly on this koan. It has the > power to change the world.... > > > -- > Frederick Glaysher > Rochester, Michigan USA > ================ End submitted post =========================== >From - Sun Nov 24 10:10:50 1996 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.60) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Sat, 23 Nov 1996 07:34:58 -0500 Message-ID: <3296F108.4BEF@moa.net> Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 07:41:44 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Richard C. Detweiler" CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community References: <199611211540.IAA09540@primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 What I wrote meets the charter of the newsgroup and the "modifications" you want are unnecessary and unjustifiable. You yourself acknowledged your request for "modification" was based on your own misreading and misunderstanding of the post. God save us if the Baha'i Faith comes down to people like you "protecting" us.... I ask you again to post it or pass it on to someone else who's more rational than you. --------------B22101EF4E-- From - Mon Apr 07 07:53:41 1997 >From snarley@f21.hotmail.com Tue Apr 1 10:42:13 1997 Received: (from root@localhost) by f21.hotmail.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA00841; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 10:40:12 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 10:40:12 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199704011840.KAA00841@f21.hotmail.com> Received: from 153.35.228.147 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Tue, 01 Apr 1997 10:40:12 PST X-Originating-IP: [153.35.228.147] From: " Steve Narley" To: FG@hotmail.com Cc: Subject: Re:Open Letter: UHJ Content-Type: text/plain X-Mozilla-Status: 0014 Content-Length: 1944 Your letter to UHJ is a personal matter and your frustrations are understandable. I'm not familiar with all the issues you have raised but I have to respect your opinion and concerns on this matter. Having said that, I was very alarmed by two components of your action: 1) Posting to soc.culture.iranian 2) Posting the home phone # of Mr. Mahmoudi. I don't know if you read that newsgroup reguraly. Not being an Iranina I take it that you don't. Because if you did, you wouldn't have posted to this 'garbage can'. This particular discussion group is filled with people who spread lies about everything not to mention the Baha'i Faith. It's safe to say that there are many enemies of Faith on this group. Like I said, I respect your frustrations but posting to this group will probably get you anything but your intent. Spend a few mintues on sci and read the messages. In fact do a search on Deja News on postings by 'Anonymous' in soc.culture.iranian. Read the way he describes the Baha'i Faith - that is if you can get past the profanity laced descriptions of Baha'is. After you have read that, you will understand my concerns. Second, with all due respect, posting someone's home phone # without their permission on the Internet is 1) against all 'netiquette' 2) unethical and 3) extremely worrisome. Mr. Mahmoudi is an Auxiliary Board Member. The uninformed and IRI zealots who frequent that newsgroup will mistake him as being an 'high ranking Baha'i official'. You can just imagine the type of harrasment Mr. Mahmoudi is going to get. Most likely he will have to change his phone #. Please let me re-state that I respect your position and frustration. I just take issue with certain aspects of your method. --------------------------------------------------------- Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at https://www.hotmail.com --------------------------------------------------------- From - Mon Apr 07 07:53:05 1997 >From boatright@topeka.cjnetworks.com Mon Mar 31 09:43:55 1997 Received: from rick.cjnetworks.com (Port82.cjnetworks.com [199.240.71.69]) by topeka.cjnetworks.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA11745; Mon, 31 Mar 1997 11:42:29 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199703311742.LAA11745@topeka.cjnetworks.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Rick Boatright" Organization: Topeka Business Computers To: FG@hotmail.com Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 11:43:54 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Open Letter: UHJ (Universal House of Justice): talk.religion Reply-to: boatright@cjnetworks.com CC: srb-mods@bcca.org Priority: normal In-reply-to: <5ho9ga$638$1@bilbo.reference.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.50) X-Mozilla-Status: 0014 Content-Length: 8676 Dear Frederick, I have forwarded your letter to the secretariat at the world center, and to Dr. Hoda Mahmoud since your note replies in part to his email. I explicitly deny that the moderators of soc.religion.bahai have participated in any program to block the formation of talk.religion.bahai. While we have never acted as advocates of the proposal, the moderators have publicly expressed their dismay at the number of votes from individuals who clearly are not usenet users. I will also point out that the moderators where the first to point out the irregularities of Mark Towfiq's note, and other posts about TRB. At no time have the moderators participated in "back channel communications" to block the formation of TRB. As I said, I have forwarded your note to the House, and I an returning it to you unposted on SRB. The moderators are of the opinion that the proper forum for the discussion of moderation practices in a usenet newsgroup is in news.groups. The moderators participate there, and will continue the discussion as long as you need. As an individual, I am brought to ask you another question. How is the request for a meeting and discussion from Dr Mahmoudi "threatening and coercive"? It looked a LOT like a request for a discssion to me. Further, I am forced to ask how your publishing his private emails to you without his permission is an appropriate action? Rick Boatright co-moderator soc.religion.bahai > March 31, 1997 > > The Universal House of Justice of the Bahais of the World > Haifa, Israel > > Dear Members of the Universal House of Justice: > > After careful reflection and prayer for the past few days, I've > decided that open public discussion and knowledge are more > important than my own status as a Bahai. > > I have been a Bahai for more than twenty years, since 1976. I > became a Bahai by reading almost every single Bahai book > published at the time. Given my background as a Catholic and > poet, I was deeply moved by the beauty and profundity of the > Bahai Writings. As a young person, I spent two months travel > teaching throughout Michigan with several other youthful, > innocent Bahais. Like many, I have sacrificed financially to > contribute to the Bahai Faith. I pioneered for a year and a > half in Japan, for two years on an American Indian reservation, > and have travel taught in China. The spiritual profundity of > the Bahai vision, as reflected in the work of the > African-American poet Robert Hayden, inspired me to study at > the University of Michigan under him and to spend considerable > time and labor editing his collected poems and prose for > Liveright and the University of Michigan Press. I have > published two essays in the Bahai magazine World Order and > spent more time than I can remember at Bahai summer camps, > workshops, and deepenings. Throughout all my varied Bahai > experience, I have loved the Figures and Teachings of the Faith > even as the conviction has grown that all information and > discussion in the Bahai Faith is subtly manipulated, controlled, > and distorted for the "good of the Faith." There seems to be a > pervasive, rigid control of all thought, ideas, and information > that calls into question the motives of the individuals in > power in the Bahai Administration. > > As a published writer and former college and university > instructor of rhetoric and literature for over ten years, I > believe the whole process of "review" has become a complete > farce and disgrace to the Bahai Faith and is suggestive of the > worst censorship under the most repressive regimes, religious > or secular, of historical experience. If one truly wishes to > understand why many Bahais, both highly educated and others, > leave the Bahai Faith or become "inactive" and withdraw into > silence and uninvolvement with the religion, one need only to > look objectively at what seems to be the oppressive and > coercive methods of people in the Bahai Administration itself > to find the answer. > > My experiencing of these same methods of censorship and > distortion on soc.religion.bahai proved to be the last > intolerable straw. My attempt to form an unmoderated newsgroup > on the Internet that no one could manipulate and censor has a > long experience of Bahai tyranny in the background. The > resorting to deceit and back-channel communication by the > moderators of soc.religion.bahai and others naively believing > they're working for the benefit of the Bahai Faith by > campaigning for 691 unethical NO votes on talk.religion.bahai > further proves the pervasive acceptance of disreputable tactics > by Bahais in their attempt to maintain a stranglehold over all > thought and discussion. > > Recently, more than ever, I've often recalled the words to me > in private several times of Robert Hayden, the only Bahai to > be appointed Consultant in Poetry to the Library of Congress: > "Why I continue to have anything to do with the Bahai Faith, I > do not know, I do not know." I myself no longer know. > > I suppose I hope that the oppressive, coercive methods that > have come to be accepted and justified in the Bahai > Administration, demonstrated for instance in the crushing of > the magazine Dialogue, the incidents surrounding the Bahai > Encyclopedia, the listserv Talisman I, and the continuingly > crude, unreadable propoganda vehicle of the American Bahai, > might yet be put aside in favor of the beautiful vision of > Baha'u'llah and Abdul-Baha for freedom of religious conscience > and belief and a humane, tolerant universalism. I fear that all > too often the religious totalitarianism of Baha'u'llah's > fanatical homeland has seeped into every nook and cranny of > His religion, smothering out the free light of the human soul > and hamstringing His Administration. > > It was with the bitterest of feelings that I observed some > time ago the Bahai exhibition, a deceitful propaganda event > really, on freedom of religious conscience and belief sponsored > by the National Spiritual Assembly in the rotunda of the > Capitol in Washington, D.C., so far in reality from the truth > was it, so misled, trusting, and uninformed were the > Congressmen of my country.... > > If censorship is allowed in the Bahai Faith, I would like to > know what passages of the Bahai Writings support it and what > are the "rules," if you will, of Bahai censorship. It seems to > me that censorship pervades the Bahai Faith so thoroughly that > some Bahais regularly use it as a method of intimidation and > silencing of anyone with an unconventional opinion by accusing > the individual of being a covenant breaker. This tactic was > used against me by at least three Bahais during the discussion > period for talk.religion.bahai and tacitly condoned by the > moderators and others. > > I include, at the end, a threatening, coercive email message I > received on March 27, 1997, from Mr. Hoda Mahmoudi, > Auxiliary Board Member for Michigan, at a crucial juncture of > the discussion and voting for talk.religion.bahai and would like > an explanation of his motives. > > I, and perhaps the rest of the world, would greatly appreciate > evidence that there are not now nine ayatollahs residing in > Israel on Mt Carmel. > > Respectfully, > > Frederick Glaysher > Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > > -------- > >Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 15:45:46 -0500 > >To: FG@hotmail.com > >From: Hoda Mahmoudi > > >Dear Mr. Glaysher: > > > >I have been reading your e-mail postings recently. I would like to speak > >with you by phone about some of your throughts and opinions regarding > >matters relevant to the Baha'i Faith. As an Auxiliary Board members for > >Michigan, I am always interested in issues which relate to individual > >spiritual responsibility and the Baha'i Faith's principle of unity. My > >phone number is 616/789-0590. > > > >Hope to hear from you soon. > > > >Hoda > > > > > > > > > > > >Hoda Mahmoudi, Ph.D. > >Associate Vice President for Academic Affairs > >Olivet College > >Olivet, MI 49076 > >616/749-7614 > > > > > > -- > > Posted using Reference.COM https://www.reference.com > Browse, Search and Post Usenet and Mailing list Archive and Catalog. > > InReference, Inc. accepts no responsibility for the content of this posting. > From - Mon Apr 07 07:52:47 1997 >From panuser@reference.com Mon Mar 31 04:07:45 1997 Received: (from panuser@localhost) by shadowfax.reference.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) id EAA02288; Mon, 31 Mar 1997 04:06:17 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 04:06:17 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199703311206.EAA02288@shadowfax.reference.com> From: FG@hotmail.com Newsgroups: news.groups,talk.religion.misc,soc.rights.human Cc: secretariat@bwc.org, FG@hotmail.com Subject: Open Letter: UHJ (Universal House of Justice): talk.religion.bahai Organization: Reference.Com Posting Service X-Mozilla-Status: 0004 Content-Length: 6854 March 31, 1997 The Universal House of Justice of the Bahais of the World Haifa, Israel Dear Members of the Universal House of Justice: After careful reflection and prayer for the past few days, I've decided that open public discussion and knowledge are more important than my own status as a Bahai. I have been a Bahai for more than twenty years, since 1976. I became a Bahai by reading almost every single Bahai book published at the time. Given my background as a Catholic and poet, I was deeply moved by the beauty and profundity of the Bahai Writings. As a young person, I spent two months travel teaching throughout Michigan with several other youthful, innocent Bahais. Like many, I have sacrificed financially to contribute to the Bahai Faith. I pioneered for a year and a half in Japan, for two years on an American Indian reservation, and have travel taught in China. The spiritual profundity of the Bahai vision, as reflected in the work of the African-American poet Robert Hayden, inspired me to study at the University of Michigan under him and to spend considerable time and labor editing his collected poems and prose for Liveright and the University of Michigan Press. I have published two essays in the Bahai magazine World Order and spent more time than I can remember at Bahai summer camps, workshops, and deepenings. Throughout all my varied Bahai experience, I have loved the Figures and Teachings of the Faith even as the conviction has grown that all information and discussion in the Bahai Faith is subtly manipulated, controlled, and distorted for the "good of the Faith." There seems to be a pervasive, rigid control of all thought, ideas, and information that calls into question the motives of the individuals in power in the Bahai Administration. As a published writer and former college and university instructor of rhetoric and literature for over ten years, I believe the whole process of "review" has become a complete farce and disgrace to the Bahai Faith and is suggestive of the worst censorship under the most repressive regimes, religious or secular, of historical experience. If one truly wishes to understand why many Bahais, both highly educated and others, leave the Bahai Faith or become "inactive" and withdraw into silence and uninvolvement with the religion, one need only to look objectively at what seems to be the oppressive and coercive methods of people in the Bahai Administration itself to find the answer. My experiencing of these same methods of censorship and distortion on soc.religion.bahai proved to be the last intolerable straw. My attempt to form an unmoderated newsgroup on the Internet that no one could manipulate and censor has a long experience of Bahai tyranny in the background. The resorting to deceit and back-channel communication by the moderators of soc.religion.bahai and others naively believing they're working for the benefit of the Bahai Faith by campaigning for 691 unethical NO votes on talk.religion.bahai further proves the pervasive acceptance of disreputable tactics by Bahais in their attempt to maintain a stranglehold over all thought and discussion. Recently, more than ever, I've often recalled the words to me in private several times of Robert Hayden, the only Bahai to be appointed Consultant in Poetry to the Library of Congress: "Why I continue to have anything to do with the Bahai Faith, I do not know, I do not know." I myself no longer know. I suppose I hope that the oppressive, coercive methods that have come to be accepted and justified in the Bahai Administration, demonstrated for instance in the crushing of the magazine Dialogue, the incidents surrounding the Bahai Encyclopedia, the listserv Talisman I, and the continuingly crude, unreadable propoganda vehicle of the American Bahai, might yet be put aside in favor of the beautiful vision of Baha'u'llah and Abdul-Baha for freedom of religious conscience and belief and a humane, tolerant universalism. I fear that all too often the religious totalitarianism of Baha'u'llah's fanatical homeland has seeped into every nook and cranny of His religion, smothering out the free light of the human soul and hamstringing His Administration. It was with the bitterest of feelings that I observed some time ago the Bahai exhibition, a deceitful propaganda event really, on freedom of religious conscience and belief sponsored by the National Spiritual Assembly in the rotunda of the Capitol in Washington, D.C., so far in reality from the truth was it, so misled, trusting, and uninformed were the Congressmen of my country.... If censorship is allowed in the Bahai Faith, I would like to know what passages of the Bahai Writings support it and what are the "rules," if you will, of Bahai censorship. It seems to me that censorship pervades the Bahai Faith so thoroughly that some Bahais regularly use it as a method of intimidation and silencing of anyone with an unconventional opinion by accusing the individual of being a covenant breaker. This tactic was used against me by at least three Bahais during the discussion period for talk.religion.bahai and tacitly condoned by the moderators and others. I include, at the end, a threatening, coercive email message I received on March 27, 1997, from Mr. Hoda Mahmoudi, Auxiliary Board Member for Michigan, at a crucial juncture of the discussion and voting for talk.religion.bahai and would like an explanation of his motives. I, and perhaps the rest of the world, would greatly appreciate evidence that there are not now nine ayatollahs residing in Israel on Mt Carmel. Respectfully, Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA -------- >Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 15:45:46 -0500 >To: FG@hotmail.com >From: Hoda Mahmoudi >Dear Mr. Glaysher: > >I have been reading your e-mail postings recently. I would like to speak >with you by phone about some of your throughts and opinions regarding >matters relevant to the Baha'i Faith. As an Auxiliary Board members for >Michigan, I am always interested in issues which relate to individual >spiritual responsibility and the Baha'i Faith's principle of unity. My >phone number is 616/789-0590. > >Hope to hear from you soon. > >Hoda > > > > > >Hoda Mahmoudi, Ph.D. >Associate Vice President for Academic Affairs >Olivet College >Olivet, MI 49076 >616/749-7614 > -- Posted using Reference.COM https://www.reference.com Browse, Search and Post Usenet and Mailing list Archive and Catalog. InReference, Inc. accepts no responsibility for the content of this posting. From - Mon Apr 07 07:52:57 1997 >From 72110.2126@compuserve.com Mon Mar 31 08:02:54 1997 Received: by dub-img-4.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id LAA02277; Mon, 31 Mar 1997 11:03:08 -0500 Date: 31 Mar 97 11:01:49 EST From: David Langness <72110.2126@CompuServe.COM> To: Subject: Re: Open Letter: UHJ (Universal House of Justice): talk.religion.bahai Message-ID: <970331160148_72110.2126_JHR55-1@CompuServe.COM> X-Mozilla-Status: 0014 Content-Length: 2730 Dear Frederick, Your letter to the House made me want to write to you and tell you that I admire your commitment to expressing the truth as you see it. I, too, have had a very difficult time remaining a Baha'i in the face of administrative campaigns to silence and slander me when I attempted to facilitate open dialogue within a Baha'i context. I did not hear, perhaps because I've been on vacation, what the final outcome of the vote for talk.religion.bahai turned out to be. I'm assuming from your letter to the House that it was not favorable. And since I just returned from a visit with my family to Harper's Ferry, where John Brown's revolt on behalf of the slaves was met with scant slave support, that decision resounds with a deep irony for me. The Baha'is at large have no idea about the extent to which speech and writing are coerced and censored within the Faith, so they themselves are able to vote for the status quo without a clue as to how such tactics have hampered the growth of the Faith. Sad indeed. But Brown's revolt, while tactically unsuccessful, helped start a process of conflict and awareness that culminated in the Civil War and in the eventual abolishment of slavery. Hopefully those of us who recognize the need for change within the culture of the Faith can accomplish something similiar if we only persevere. Accordingly, I hope that your letter to the House, along with the 200 or so I know they have received recently on similiar subjects, will help move people in the direction of freedom and open expression. I would advise you to be careful about any meetings, calls or correspondence with Hoda Mahmoudi, who used to be an ABM here in Southern California. She is quite conservative, and sees herself -- as do many of the appointed branch, sadly -- as a staunch defender of the Faith and the faithful, able and more than willing to marginalize people like you and I to discredit our ideas. This cultlike practice of shunning and casting out any dissidents has unfortunately become the chief tactic of those fundamentalist Baha'is bent on maintaining the current leadership. My worry is that the more progressive Baha'is like Juan Cole and Steve Scholl and yourself will all leave the Faith and thereby increase the power of the conservatives. So I hope that your letter to the House doesn't indicate that you are withdrawing from the Faith, although it seems to hint in that direction. I hope that you can find a way to stay in and help us progressive types in our struggle -- but I will certainly understand if the fascists force yet another one out. My best to you in this difficult and troubled time. Love, David Langness From - Mon Apr 07 07:53:00 1997 >From burlb@bmi.net Mon Mar 31 08:19:11 1997 Received: from burlbare by bmi.bmi.net with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #1) id m0wBjd7-0003Y7C; Mon, 31 Mar 97 08:08 PST Message-Id: From: "Burl Barer" To: Cc: Subject: Re: Open Letter: UHJ (Universal House of Justice): talk.religion.bahai Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 08:19:58 -0800 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0014 Content-Length: 1317 > > Dear Frederick: I read with interest your letter to the Universal House of Justice. I was, of course, also interested to read the threatening and coercive e-mail you mentioned. However, are you sure you attatched the correct message? Here is the freindly, unific, and pleasant message you actually attatched: > >> >I have been reading your e-mail postings recently. I would like to speak > >with you by phone about some of your throughts and opinions regarding > >matters relevant to the Baha'i Faith. As an Auxiliary Board members for > >Michigan, I am always interested in issues which relate to individual > >spiritual responsibility and the Baha'i Faith's principle of unity. My > >phone number is 616/789-0590. How was your conversation with this person? He or she sounds very open and supportive to me. Warm regards, Burl Barer > > > > > > > > > >Hoda Mahmoudi, Ph.D. > >Associate Vice President for Academic Affairs > >Olivet College > >Olivet, MI 49076 > >616/749-7614 > > > > > > -- > > Posted using Reference.COM https://www.reference.com > Browse, Search and Post Usenet and Mailing list Archive and Catalog. > > InReference, Inc. accepts no responsibility for the content of this posting. From - Mon Apr 07 07:53:15 1997 >From phekda@juno.com Mon Mar 31 21:25:33 1997 Received: (from phekda@juno.com) by x1.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id ABE14817; Tue, 01 Apr 1997 00:22:21 EST To: FG@hotmail.com Cc: talisman@umich.edu, irfan@umich.edu, bahai-faith@bcca.org Subject: Re: Open Letter: UHJ (Universal House of Justice): talk.religion.bahai Message-ID: <19970331.211919.3398.1.Phekda@juno.com> References: <199703311219.EAA02561@shadowfax.reference.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.14 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,10-175 From: phekda@juno.com (William H Reed) Date: Tue, 01 Apr 1997 00:22:21 EST X-Mozilla-Status: 0014 Content-Length: 7753 Frederick Glaysher: I am very sad for you my friend. The world is full of pain and confusion. It is also filled with the evidences of His wisdom and beauty. You find what you look for. If you look for wonder and magnificence you will see that you are immersed in an ocean of glories. If you search out the gutters of ego, self, discontent, pain, vanity and separation, there also will you be immersed. Ultimately the final test for us all, individuals, nations, religions, and even the whole of mankind, will be to stand in the presence of the One Creator and choose between the love of ourselves and the love of Him. William H Reed On Mon, 31 Mar 1997 04:19:12 -0800 (PST) FG@hotmail.com writes: > March 31, 1997 > >The Universal House of Justice of the Bahais of the World >Haifa, Israel > >Dear Members of the Universal House of Justice: > >After careful reflection and prayer for the past few days, I've >decided that open public discussion and knowledge are more >important than my own status as a Bahai. > >I have been a Bahai for more than twenty years, since 1976. I >became a Bahai by reading almost every single Bahai book >published at the time. Given my background as a Catholic and >poet, I was deeply moved by the beauty and profundity of the >Bahai Writings. As a young person, I spent two months travel >teaching throughout Michigan with several other youthful, >innocent Bahais. Like many, I have sacrificed financially to >contribute to the Bahai Faith. I pioneered for a year and a >half in Japan, for two years on an American Indian reservation, >and have travel taught in China. The spiritual profundity of >the Bahai vision, as reflected in the work of the >African-American poet Robert Hayden, inspired me to study at >the University of Michigan under him and to spend considerable >time and labor editing his collected poems and prose for >Liveright and the University of Michigan Press. I have >published two essays in the Bahai magazine World Order and >spent more time than I can remember at Bahai summer camps, >workshops, and deepenings. Throughout all my varied Bahai >experience, I have loved the Figures and Teachings of the Faith >even as the conviction has grown that all information and >discussion in the Bahai Faith is subtly manipulated, controlled, >and distorted for the "good of the Faith." There seems to be a >pervasive, rigid control of all thought, ideas, and information >that calls into question the motives of the individuals in >power in the Bahai Administration. > >As a published writer and former college and university >instructor of rhetoric and literature for over ten years, I >believe the whole process of "review" has become a complete >farce and disgrace to the Bahai Faith and is suggestive of the >worst censorship under the most repressive regimes, religious >or secular, of historical experience. If one truly wishes to >understand why many Bahais, both highly educated and others, >leave the Bahai Faith or become "inactive" and withdraw into >silence and uninvolvement with the religion, one need only to >look objectively at what seems to be the oppressive and >coercive methods of people in the Bahai Administration itself >to find the answer. > >My experiencing of these same methods of censorship and >distortion on soc.religion.bahai proved to be the last >intolerable straw. My attempt to form an unmoderated newsgroup >on the Internet that no one could manipulate and censor has a >long experience of Bahai tyranny in the background. The >resorting to deceit and back-channel communication by the >moderators of soc.religion.bahai and others naively believing >they're working for the benefit of the Bahai Faith by >campaigning for 691 unethical NO votes on talk.religion.bahai >further proves the pervasive acceptance of disreputable tactics >by Bahais in their attempt to maintain a stranglehold over all >thought and discussion. > >Recently, more than ever, I've often recalled the words to me >in private several times of Robert Hayden, the only Bahai to >be appointed Consultant in Poetry to the Library of Congress: >"Why I continue to have anything to do with the Bahai Faith, I >do not know, I do not know." I myself no longer know. > >I suppose I hope that the oppressive, coercive methods that >have come to be accepted and justified in the Bahai >Administration, demonstrated for instance in the crushing of >the magazine Dialogue, the incidents surrounding the Bahai >Encyclopedia, the listserv Talisman I, and the continuingly >crude, unreadable propoganda vehicle of the American Bahai, >might yet be put aside in favor of the beautiful vision of >Baha'u'llah and Abdul-Baha for freedom of religious conscience >and belief and a humane, tolerant universalism. I fear that all >too often the religious totalitarianism of Baha'u'llah's >fanatical homeland has seeped into every nook and cranny of >His religion, smothering out the free light of the human soul >and hamstringing His Administration. > >It was with the bitterest of feelings that I observed some >time ago the Bahai exhibition, a deceitful propaganda event >really, on freedom of religious conscience and belief sponsored >by the National Spiritual Assembly in the rotunda of the >Capitol in Washington, D.C., so far in reality from the truth >was it, so misled, trusting, and uninformed were the >Congressmen of my country.... > >If censorship is allowed in the Bahai Faith, I would like to >know what passages of the Bahai Writings support it and what >are the "rules," if you will, of Bahai censorship. It seems to >me that censorship pervades the Bahai Faith so thoroughly that >some Bahais regularly use it as a method of intimidation and >silencing of anyone with an unconventional opinion by accusing >the individual of being a covenant breaker. This tactic was >used against me by at least three Bahais during the discussion >period for talk.religion.bahai and tacitly condoned by the >moderators and others. > >I include, at the end, a threatening, coercive email message I >received on March 27, 1997, from Mr. Hoda Mahmoudi, >Auxiliary Board Member for Michigan, at a crucial juncture of >the discussion and voting for talk.religion.bahai and would like >an explanation of his motives. > >I, and perhaps the rest of the world, would greatly appreciate >evidence that there are not now nine ayatollahs residing in >Israel on Mt Carmel. > >Respectfully, > >Frederick Glaysher >Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > >-------- >>Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 15:45:46 -0500 >>To: FG@hotmail.com >>From: Hoda Mahmoudi > >>Dear Mr. Glaysher: >> >>I have been reading your e-mail postings recently. I would like to >speak >>with you by phone about some of your throughts and opinions regarding >>matters relevant to the Baha'i Faith. As an Auxiliary Board members >for >>Michigan, I am always interested in issues which relate to individual >>spiritual responsibility and the Baha'i Faith's principle of unity. >My >>phone number is 616/789-0590. >> >>Hope to hear from you soon. >> >>Hoda >> >> >> >> >> >>Hoda Mahmoudi, Ph.D. >>Associate Vice President for Academic Affairs >>Olivet College >>Olivet, MI 49076 >>616/749-7614 >> > > > >-- > >Posted using Reference.COM >https://www.reference.com >Browse, Search and Post Usenet and Mailing list Archive and >Catalog. > >InReference, Inc. accepts no responsibility for the content of this >posting. > From - Mon Apr 07 07:53:21 1997 >From ejhadley@artsci.wustl.edu Mon Mar 31 22:46:57 1997 Received: from [128.252.82.60] (dialin2-60.wustl.edu [128.252.82.60]) by ascc.artsci.wustl.edu (8.8.5/ECL-JEK1.1) with SMTP id AAA04243; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 00:40:45 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 00:47:42 -0500 To: FG@hotmail.com From: ejhadley@artsci.wustl.edu (Eric Hadley-Ives) Subject: Re: Open Letter: UHJ (Universal House of Justice): talk.religion.bahai Cc: johnhi63@slip.net, jonatha665@aol.com, pkorsay@inlink.com X-Mozilla-Status: 0014 Content-Length: 23815 Dr. Glaysher, As is usually the case with your posts, I found the recent open letter to the Universal House of Justice right on the mark in content, but phrased with a tone that is certain to hurt the feelings of those who receive it. Couldn't you have sugar-coated the words? Couldn't you have put more love into the letter? On the other hand, the letter seems to me to have a feeling to it like the feeling of a betrayed lover, or a passionately caring person who is roused in anger at some injustice. So maybe there is love in it. My personal reaction to your post is not so important. But I'm very curious about a couple things. If you have time, could you answer a few questions? You wrote: > the conviction has grown that all information and > discussion in the Baha'i Faith is subtly manipulated, controlled, > and distorted for the "good of the Faith." There seems to be a > pervasive, rigid control of all thought, ideas, and information > that calls into question the motives of the individuals in > power in the Baha'i Administration. When you write about *all* information and discussion, do you really believe that, or are you emphasizing your point with a bit of... is "overstating" the word I'm looking for? What does "rigid control" mean? You are a deepened Baha'i, but you didn't use the words of Shoghi Effendi or the Central figures here, although you could have done so. For example, You could have written: In a letter dated 22 July 1943 Shoghi Effendi's secretary wrote on his behalf that "There cannot be any permanently elected secretary who would year after year hold office, as this would be contrary to the principles of the administration" yet our NSA has had the same Secretary for many years. Does this "this" in the statement "this would be contrary..." refer to the "permanently elected secretary" position, (I think it obviously does), or does it also include the "year after year hold office" part of the objection? If having the same person hold a position "year after year" is "contrary to the principles" do we need something like term limits or just a friendly reminder from our Supreme Institution? I ask this believing that it is your responsibility to give us general principles and allow our NSA to attend to details (as were the Guardian's duties described in a letter on Shoghi Effendi's behalf on 11 Nov. 1933), but I would like to know what the "general principles" are in terms of individuals having the same office "year after year". Or you could have written something like: In a letter to our NSA dated 25 Nov. 1937, Shoghi Effendi, through a secretary told our Administration to "desist from multiplying the administrative regulations..." and to "direct their attention to the greater and vital issues... ...rather than allow their energies to be expended in the consideration of purely secondary administrative matters." This same spirit was repeated in a letter on the Guardian's behalf to the NSA of North East Asia (dated 15 July 1957) in which we read, "Your Assembly must be very careful not to overload the Baha'is with rules and regulations..." I realize that these letters and the many others like them were written a long time ago in different circumstances, but I wonder if the spirit of those communications might apply to this time in which our Administration now devotes considerable energies in reviewing publications and encouraging people to be silent or use more wisdom in their discussions of important issues in the Faith. What I'm getting at here is, isn't the "temporary" time for review over? Or you could have written something like: I read in a letter from Shoghi Effendi to the Baha'is of America (dated 23 Feb. 1924) that we all should "bear in mind that the keynote of the Cause of God is not dictatorial authority, but humble fellowship, not arbitrary power, but the spirit of frank and loving consultation..." Further on in this letter we read that: "[elected representatives] must at all times avoid the spirit of exclusiveness, the atmosphere of secrecy, free themselves from a domineering attitude... etc." And that they should "within the limits of wise discretion, take the friends into their confidence, acquaint them with their plans, share with them their problems and anxieties, and seek their advise and counsel." I believe that as the individuals who are elected into administration mature, we may have more administrative bodies that act as described in the letter. When we have more administrative bodies that act as Baha'i administrative bodies, I'm sure there will be more whole-hearted cooperation and acceptance, and a cease to the increase in bitterness. However, isn't the administrative system a two sided thing, in which administrative bodies do their part, and the rest of us do ours, and both sides show forbearance and patience and love with the shortcomings of the other? Currently I perceive the national administration in my country to have very little of the spirit of Baha'i administration described by Shoghi Effendi, so little in fact that I despair of even bringing this to their attention, for fear of whatever retribution they may use to lash out against me." These ways of presenting the substance of your argument make use of quotations from Shoghi Effendi, are more humble, and are more careful, but still show some strong objections to the current state of things. > I believe the whole process of "review" has become a complete > farce and disgrace to the Baha'i Faith and is suggestive of the > worst censorship under the most repressive regimes, religious > or secular, of historical experience. Here again you express a fine idea I could agree with, but your tone is a total turn-off to anyone unless they are very patient and loving. Why could you just say: "I think we've outgrown the process of 'review' and I hope you will reconsider it and give us some idea of how much longer it should remain a mandatory imposition on our scholars, writers, and administrators." You could have warned the UHJ that: "as more prominent people are drawn to the Faith, and as more outsiders give us careful scrutiny, they will notice this process of review and associate it with the worst censorship under the most repressive regimes. I fear future headlines in newspapers about "Thought Control in the Baha'i Cult" or "Seemingly Progressive Faith's Dark Secret of Censorship" once our review process comes to the attention of our friends in journalism and other communities of faith." You could have strengthened the persuasive force of your argument by acknowledging the uses of review in the past, and its possible future as an aid to scholars who wish to receive a "seal of approval" for their books intended for Baha'i audiences. You could have made much of the review process being instituted as a "temporary" process as described by Abdu'l-Baha in a time when covenant breakers were strong over 70 years ago. > If one truly wishes to > understand why many Bahais, both highly educated and others, > leave the Baha'i Faith or become "inactive" and withdraw into > silence and uninvolvement with the religion, one need only to > look objectively at what seems to be the oppressive and > coercive methods of people in the Baha'i Administration itself > to find the answer. People withdraw into uninvolvement for many reasons. I wish it were as simple as you describe it, with the mistakes of individuals in the Baha'i Administration, particularly their methods, being a source of most the disaffection. I feel the stupidity of the Baha'is (witness the gullibility of 650 to go along with the campaign to ignore rules of voting and vote against your newsgroup purely because they were afraid of the content that *might* appear there) is a great source of inactivity. Another problem is that idealistic intellectuals are attracted to the Faith, and such persons often are perfectionists, with limited patience for injustice and gross human error. For an intelligent and sensitive person to remain active within the registered Baha'i community, and keep a sense of justice and love for the pure teachings of Baha'u'llah (and a vision of what the Greater Peace could be), one has to have infinite patience and love. We'll suffer excruciating mental anguish when people we love and respect(ed), who serve on our Administrative bodies, lie or backbite or verbally abuse against sincere believers. Some of us will just leave the Faith, hoping to return to it in the Abha Kingdom or believing that the present manifestation of the Faith is so primative it no better represents the Faith created by Baha'u'llah, Abdu'l-Baha, and Shoghi Effendi than the Unitarians or some other progressive religious movement. There is certanly an ethical problem we face. Many of Shoghi Effendi's letters stress that Baha'is must give whole-hearted and unqualified obedience to our Administrative Institutions. On the other hand, the method, spirit, and process of the Administrative Order also requires us to speak frankly to those Administrative Institutions about our concerns and criticisms. Further, the Administrative Instituations are supposed to behave in certain ways. What do we do when we are penalized for speaking frankly to the institutions? What do we do when the insitutions show almost none of the spirit and process they are supposed to follow, but still demand from us whole-hearted and unqualified obedience? We can say, "I want no more part of this sick system, I'll come back to it later if it gets better" or "I'll come back to it in the next world where human failings won't tarnish or undermine the spirit of the Cause" or "I'll take what is good and remain a Friend of the Faith but stay outside the official rolls of the membership so I don't have to deal with the most stupid excesses" This seems to be the choice of Juan Cole and Steven Scholl. We can become inactive and pursue other avenues of spiritual growth in association with other like-minded people. Keeping our Baha'i books and beliefs as we join with other communities, and not sending in our cards to the "Community Affairs" department because we don't feel a need to "burn our bridges" as we become "inactive." Or we can say, "I really don't know why I continue to be involved with the Baha'i Faith, but I do." and stick with it but keep our objections for the most part quiently to ourselves and just sort of remain luke-warm in our community involvement. Or we can ignore the problems (for the most part), trusting that they will diminsh as people become more mature and new generations grow up. Or we can continually bring attention to areas where we need improvement in a way that isn't divisive. This is tough to do, and one may get little encouragement, or find few results. Or we can boldly cry out against the foolishness. This might be wrong sometimes, because, as Shoghi Effendi feared, outsiders might be repelled by our disunity and wonder how our religion could help unite the world. On the other hand, if you do cause the desired changes in the faith and bring it closer to what it is supposed to be, maybe in the long term the criticism can be worth while, and help us avoid future problems far worse than simply turning a few people off by our temporary stage of bickering. Worst of all, we can try to form a "better" kind of Baha'i Community outside the Covenant. That is not an option for sane or spiritually aware people. > The resorting to deceit and back-channel communication by the > moderators of soc.religion.bahai and others naively believing > they're working for the benefit of the Baha'i Faith by > campaigning for 691 unethical NO votes on talk.religion.bahai > further proves the pervasive acceptance of disreputable tactics > by Bahais in their attempt to maintain a stranglehold over all > thought and discussion. My, you do use words that are associated with anger and paranoia. Do you really have evidence that the moderators of soc.religion.bahai led that campaign against soc.religion.bahai? Was it maybe just one or two of them? Was it really a "campaign" or was it simply a couple E-mails posted around? Was it really "deceit" or was it simply a case of an inept, stupid person who doesn't understand the rules of newsgroup establishment procedures (or who doesn't care about the rules?). The best spin to put on this would be to tell the UHJ exactly what the rules of newsgroup establishment are, and how the E-mail encouraging the "no" vote was distributed, and how moderators didn't contradict it or censor it, and then how the voting outcome resulted, and then say that all this took place in public so that soon the whole Internet community may be aware of how over 650 people "broke the rules" and "violated the spirit" of free discussion on the Internet in a way that could greatly harm the prestige of the Faith. Don't you agree that you could get a better response from people who are supposed to defend the faith by putting your argument to them in this manner? > Recently, more than ever, I've often recalled the words to me > in private several times of Robert Hayden, the only Baha'i to > be appointed Consultant in Poetry to the Library of Congress: > "Why I continue to have anything to do with the Baha'i Faith, I > do not know, I do not know." I myself no longer know. I'm very interested in why Robert Hayden said that to you. What bothered him about the Faith? Why did he stick with it? I'm sticking with the Faith although I often feel the way Dr. Hayden must have felt. For example, after the Naw Ruz party in St. Louis my wife was literally crying at how lame the whole thing was and some rudeness she perceived directed against our family by some of the persons who organized the event. She and I really felt like we never wanted to go to another Baha'i community event again. But on reflection we decided that of course we do have many good times with our Baha'i friends, and just giving up would not help anyone or improve the situation. I would feel strengthened to know more about how a prominant Baha'i like Robert Hayden found the strength to remain in the Faith in spite of this silly behavior that so many of us perpetrate. > the oppressive, coercive methods that > have come to be accepted and justified in the Baha'i > Administration, demonstrated for instance in the crushing of > the magazine Dialogue, the incidents surrounding the Baha'i > Encyclopedia, the listserv Talisman I, and the continuingly > crude, unreadable propaganda vehicle of the American Baha'i Rather than leaving the details unsaid, it would be stronger here to say, "the Baha'i Magazine Dialogue was crushed through a campaign of misinformation in which at least one member of the NSA broke the eternal spiritual commandment against bearing false witness, even to the point of lying to the UHJ about the situation." Wasting our precious Baha'i Funds on a close to worthless rag like the American Baha'i is indeed a travesty, but I wouldn't call it an "oppressive or coercive method." I already know about the Dialogue event and I've read the archived Talisman I stuff on Juan Cole's home page. I've heard about the Encyclopedia project as well. But aside from these 3 terrible and gross errors, are there many other problems? Are there systematic problems, or are there just these three big ones, the Dialogue issue going back to almost a decade ago? I know of the scattered abuses where people lose administrative rights without being warned or even told why, or adminstrative bodies that saction persecution of homosexual Baha'is, but those are just the outliers on the bad end of what is probably a normal distribution curve of quality in Baha'i administrative practices. At least I hope so, and without scales to measure quality in Baha'i administration or researchers out there seeing the whole of what's going on, we're left only to guess and hope for the best. > I fear that all > too often the religious totalitarianism of Baha'u'llah's > fanatical homeland has seeped into every nook and cranny of > His religion, smothering out the free light of the human soul > and hamstringing His Administration. "Hamstringing" a very well-chosen work in light of how it's used in the Kitab-i-Iqan. But really, this is *your big issue* and I don't understand what you have got against the Persians. "Seeped into every nook and cranny?" Come on, at most the cultural acceptance of religious totalitarianism exerts a subtle and vague influence on the Faith as it exists today, and the tentacles of that monster of intolerance weaken as we develop our intellectual capacities "God's Supreme Gift to humanity" and become educated. Why do you rage on so? Some of the most irreligious and impious Baha'is I've ever met were of Persian cultural backgrounds, and I know Persian Baha'is who have been hurt by the religious fundamentalism of their North American Baha'i friends. The residual Christian fundamentalist tradition in Baha'i converts is just as serious a threat to our community as the Persian and Shi'ite stuff. > It was with the bitterest of feelings that I observed some > time ago the Baha'i exhibition, a deceitful propaganda event > really, on freedom of religious conscience and belief sponsored > by the National Spiritual Assembly in the rotunda of the > Capitol in Washington, D.C., so far in reality from the truth > was it, so misled, trusting, and uninformed were the > Congressmen of my country.... I know nothing of this and I'm very curious about what you mean. What was so deceitful about the exhibition? I'd like to know. Please answer this question. > It seems to > me that censorship pervades the Baha'i Faith so thoroughly that > some Bahais regularly use it as a method of intimidation and > silencing of anyone with an unconventional opinion by accusing > the individual of being a covenant breaker. But what actions, according to your understanding, constitute "censorship"? > This tactic was > used against me by at least three Bahais during the discussion > period for talk.religion.bahai and tacitly condoned by the > moderators and others. People said you were a covenant breaker? On what grounds? Did they say this publicly? Now you have an ironic situation. You're objecting to the speech of others, as if you want the UHJ to step in and silence those people who tell you they think you might be a Covenant Breaker in sheeps clothing. If people are really threatening you by saying directly and openly that "watch out or we'll have you declared a covenant breaker" then you really have a good case to make for the NSA or UHJ to step in and remind everyone what exactly Covenant Breaking is, and how it is different from simply "acting in ways that could lead to removal of administrative rights". > I include, at the end, a threatening, coercive email message I > received on March 27, 1997, from Mr. Hoda Mahmoudi, > Auxiliary Board Member for Michigan, at a crucial juncture of > the discussion and voting for talk.religion.bahai and would like > an explanation of his motives. I feel confident that if I had a scale to measure "threatening" and "coersive" and then gave the letter from Hoda Mahmoudi you shared to a sample of 100 well-educated Baha'is with good common sense, not more than 5% would agree that the letter is threatening or coercive. > I, and perhaps the rest of the world, would greatly appreciate > evidence that there are not now nine ayatollahs residing in > Israel on Mt Carmel. Oh my goodness, this is not at all how to address people you love and respect. Would you write that challenging observation to your parents, your wife, or your children? This is the UHJ you're writing to, not some group of idiots who deserve such contempt. You've got to learn to soften your tone if you want to make anyone take you seriously in this matter. Try: "I am worried that objective outside observers might compare our Administrative Bodies and the people who serve on them to the Ayatollahs of Iran, and it would break my heart if they ever thought such a comparison was justified. Please, I beg of you, make a clear distiction between the Baha'i Faith's administration and the reactionary forces of spiritual darkness that in so many areas of the world coerce and intimidate holders of heterodox opinion." Here are my thoughts on the letter from the Aux. Board Member: >> I have been reading your e-mail postings recently. I would like to speak >> with you by phone about some of your throughts and opinions regarding >> matters relevant to the Baha'i Faith. So far so good, just a friendly note... >> As an Auxiliary Board members for >> Michigan, I am always interested in issues which relate to individual >> spiritual responsibility and the Baha'i Faith's principle of unity. You mean that because this guy linked the ideas of: 1) his being an Aux. Board Member 2) individual and spiritual responsibility issues 3) the principle of unity he was being coercive and threatening? Look, we do have principles of unity in the faith. You must recognize that you are pushing the boundaries, or stretching the envelope of unity as it is commonly understood. Surely it must have crossed your mind that to some people you have actually gone beyond what is appropriate in terms of "unity". I guess you don't think you're violating the principle of unity, because as a deepened Baha'i, you mustbelieve that your campain is in accordance with your spiritual obligation to help the Faith. But don't you see that some people will not agree with your perceptions? You'll have to have dialogue with them, listen to their points of view, try to understand them, which will require of you some empathetic skills... What is so threatening about Aux. Board Members? They are supposed to look out for everyone's best interests. Maybe you can explain to this Aux. Board Member how the campaign to censor you is hurting the Faith, and how someone from the Administration could send out a letter to all the newsgroups saying that Baha'is should abide by the established rules of voting for establishing Newsgroups on Usenet. You're assuming the administration is conspiring against you and will only threaten you when it's possible you could demonstrate to them how what you are trying to do is in all in the spirit of the faith. Do you not want to share your ideas about the principle of unity or the principle of individual responsibility with a member of an Administrative Body? Surely you should jump at the chance. You're evidently willing to go to the UHJ with your complains, why not share them with an Aux. Board Member or a NSA. The way I see things, you should have started by contacting *only* the Aux. Board Member or NSA to alert them to the problem that a Baha'i was encouraging other Baha'is to break the rules of the Usenet and have people vote without due procedure against talk.religion.bahai. Then, if the Administration had attacked you, you would have cause to go to the UHJ with your tale of woe. Good luck to ya. I'm hoping all this will work out for the best. Please do get back to me on that question of Robert Hayden and the exhibit in the Capitol if you have time. ********* Eric Hadley-Ives. ejhadley@artsci.wustl.edu tel. (314) 644-3572 ********* From - Mon Apr 07 07:53:44 1997 >From keillan@quest.cc.purdue.edu Tue Apr 1 12:02:52 1997 Received: (from keillan@localhost) by quest.cc.purdue.edu (7.2.5/7.2.5) id PAA32374; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 15:03:03 -0500 Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 15:03:03 -0500 From: "Kelly G. Willis" Message-Id: <199704012003.PAA32374@quest.cc.purdue.edu> To: FG@hotmail.com Subject: Re: Open Letter: UHJ (Universal House of Justice): talk.religion.bahai Newsgroups: news.groups,talk.religion.misc,soc.rights.human In-Reply-To: <5ho9c5$629$1@bilbo.reference.com> Organization: The Department of Chemistry, Purdue University X-Mozilla-Status: 0014 Content-Length: 1062 Before the END OF THE UNIVERSE, you had the notion to write: >The Universal House of Justice of the Bahais of the World >Haifa, Israel... >...I include, at the end, a threatening, coercive email message I >received on March 27, 1997, from Mr. Hoda Mahmoudi, >Auxiliary Board Member for Michigan, at a crucial juncture of >the discussion and voting for talk.religion.bahai and would like >an explanation of his motives. Just for your information, Hoda Mahmoudi is female, despite the name she has. (A Persian-American acquaintance of mine originally mistook her gender as well). Although, while I understand the implications of timing, I nevertheless fail to see how her e-mail to you was threatening and/or coercive. -- ----- \\\\\\\\\ Only from the mind of Kelly G. Willis // Purdue University ) ( | \\ Email: keillan@purdue.edu // Dept. of Chemistry / \ --O-- /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// (_____) | // "Dead? No excuse for laying off work!" -- The Supreme Being From - Sun Apr 27 10:20:09 1997 >From FG@hotmail.com Sun Apr 27 06:39:41 1997 Received: (qmail 21674 invoked from network); 27 Apr 1997 13:38:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO default) (199.179.42.126) by hm3.hotmail.com with SMTP; 27 Apr 1997 13:38:50 -0000 Message-ID: <33635736.2A4@hotmail.com> Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 09:40:06 -0400 From: FG Reply-To: FG@hotmail.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai,alt.religion.bahai Subject: Re: Original Sin Part II References: <"VO_kp.A.O-.DfVYz"@bounty> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Content-Length: 488 Wow! Original Sin! Where's Part I! As a former Catholic, here's a topic I can really get excited about! Though I relish Paul (not to mention Augustine), may I suggest another text? Ecclesiastes, chapter 9, verse 3: "The heart of the sons of men is full of evil." My favorite verse from the Word of God. I find this most fundamental of religous insights richly embroidered into the Revelation of Baha'u'llah.... -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Tue Apr 29 07:25:17 1997 >From dmcadam@madriver.com Mon Apr 28 18:49:46 1997 Received: from IP130.MADRIVER.COM by bend.madriver.com (5.65v3.2/1.1.10.5/22Apr97-1058AM) id AA21463; Mon, 28 Apr 1997 22:22:01 -0400 X-Sender: dmcadam@bend.madriver.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 21:50:59 -0500 To: FG@hotmail.com From: dmcadam@madriver.com (Douglas A. McAdam) Subject: Re: Original Sin Part II Cc: bahai-faith@bcca.org X-Mozilla-Status: 0014 Content-Length: 640 At 12:24 PM 4/27/97, Frederick Glaysher wrote: > Ecclesiastes, chapter 9, verse 3: > > "The heart of the sons of men is full of evil." > > My favorite verse from the Word of God. I find this most > fundamental of religous insights richly embroidered into the > Revelation of Baha'u'llah.... Dear Fred- Not fair - you mention this but have not elaborated as to why it is your favorite verse. Please continue, regards, doug >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Foundation for the Science of Reality<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Box 561, Waitsfield, VT 05673-phone: 802-496-6883 - email: dmcadam@madriver.com From - Sun Jun 22 07:24:42 1980 >From panuser@reference.com Tue Apr 22 03:32:27 1997 Received: (from panuser@localhost) by shadowfax.reference.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) id DAA20191; Tue, 22 Apr 1997 03:32:12 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 03:32:12 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199704221032.DAA20191@shadowfax.reference.com> From: FG@hotmail.com Newsgroups: alt.religion.bahai Cc: FG@hotmail.com Subject: Re: Orthodox Baha'i Faith References: <334C58BB.245E@aol.com> <5infaa$6rp$2@news.d.umn.edu> <5j0cqv$7u$1@bilbo.reference.com> <5j159l$qo1$1@bilbo.reference.com> <5jf1gf$ed$1@news.d.umn.edu> Organization: Reference.Com Posting Service X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Content-Length: 1001 On 21 Apr 1997 06:29:35 GMT, acorkill@ub.d.umn.edu (aaron corkill-bomgaars) wrote: [clip] > > Why did Shogi Effendi leave no will? As a test. . .Note that currently > the Baha'i Faith has no central figure. This is advantagious as the Faith > is now one of the few organizations in the world that is truly democratic. > Shogi Effendi has left us with ample writings to maintain the Faith for > the next 800+ years until the next manifestation. > > Aaron No will as a test? I'm not sure we know why Shogi Effendi died, apparently, without a will.... "Truly democratic": he himself writes, in more than one place, that the administrative order is a blend of differing systems. Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA -- Posted using Reference.COM https://www.reference.com Browse, Search and Post Usenet and Mailing list Archive and Catalog. InReference, Inc. accepts no responsibility for the content of this posting. From - Mon Feb 10 08:15:03 1997 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.47) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Mon, 10 Feb 1997 07:58:25 -0500 Message-ID: <32FF1D35.6A29@moa.net> Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 08:05:57 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: smaneck@berry.edu Subject: Others Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 2314 I hope this guy isn't a covenant breaker... ---- Re: talk.religion.bahai >From "Jeffrey A. Goldberg" Organization MegsInet, Inc. - Midwestern Internet Services Date Sat, 08 Feb 1997 17:39:39 -0600 Newsgroups news.groups Message-ID <32FD0EBB.3F94@megsinet.net> References 1 2 3 4 5 > Frederick Glaysher wrote: > > > > [Please reject or post this message.] > > > > Since a few people have requested examples of censorship on > > soc.religion.bahai, I've posted them to news.groups. The > > file CENSORED#1--S.R.B. is a 740k file. Unless you don't > > mind a long wait, you might want to avoid that one. The > > others are brief excerpts of 10k or so. > > > > Watch for the CFV and please vote YES for the creation of an > > unmoderated, uncensored forum: talk.religion.bahai > > > > -- > > Frederick Glaysher > > Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > I refuse to post on soc.religion.bahai because of the arbitrary and mean-spirited manner of censorship practiced by the moderators. The discussion is so controlled that no self-respecting Baha'i or anyone else should post there. I don't understand the newsgroup creation process, but I support you in your quest for an unmoderated newsgroup. >Thanks for having the courage to say so. Would you consider reposting >this to news.groups so others can read it? Discussion about forming >talk.religion.bahai is supposed to take place there, on >soc.religion.bahai, >or crossposted always to news.groups. >It's very important that people hear srb is "arbitrary and >mean-spirited" >from someone other than myself. I can get sense many think so, but >they're scared to state it..... You have too vote in a week or two for >your opinion to count. Watch for the CFV (Call For Votes). Consider it posted.... arbitrary and mean-spirited they are. The problem with this vote is that all of the people who were long ago fed up with the manner that the baha'i newsgroup has been moderated probably are no longer paying attention to this and therefore you won't reach them. The only ones to consider this are those on the discussion group who do not mind having their thoughts reviewed. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Mon Feb 10 17:23:37 1997 Received: from drew.berry.edu (168.31.232.19) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Mon, 10 Feb 1997 15:17:39 -0500 Received: from odin.berry.edu (odin.berry.edu [168.31.232.26]) by drew.berry.edu (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id OAA23856 for <@moa.net>; Mon, 10 Feb 1997 14:30:07 -0500 Received: from ODIN/SpoolDir by odin.berry.edu (Mercury 1.21); 10 Feb 97 15:34:48 -400 Received: from SpoolDir by ODIN (Mercury 1.30); 10 Feb 97 15:34:34 -400 From: "Susan Maneck" Organization: Berry College To: Frederick Glaysher <@moa.net> Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 15:34:31 EST Subject: Re: Others Reply-to: SManeck@berry.edu Priority: normal In-reply-to: <32FF1D35.6A29@moa.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) Message-ID: <25C1BC4221F@odin.berry.edu> X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Content-Length: 321 Dear Frederick, I fear the "bulk" of those who find the environment on SRB oppressive and might be interested in your list will be CBs. Most other types of "dissidents" manage to find a home on Talisman. Of course there are a few right-wingers like John Hauknes whose posts get turned down regularly. Susan From - Tue Feb 11 07:14:09 1997 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.60) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Tue, 11 Feb 1997 04:25:04 -0500 Message-ID: <33003CB5.3B70@moa.net> Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 04:32:37 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: SManeck@berry.edu Subject: Re: Others References: <25C1BC4221F@odin.berry.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Content-Length: 905 Susan Maneck wrote: > > Dear Frederick, > > I fear the "bulk" of those who find the environment on SRB oppressive > and might be interested in your list will be CBs. Most other types of > "dissidents" manage to find a home on Talisman. Of course there are a > few right-wingers like John Hauknes whose posts get turned down > regularly. > > Susan I hope you're wrong. Talisman may style itself the bastion of free speech and liberalism, but I'm afraid I know better. I'm tired of nannies in this religion policing others' thoughts.... That's my only motive, really. Let's see what happens. Given the stagnant state of the Faith, it's worth a try. I genuinely believe it ought to help.... I don't expect most Bahais will understand that or why I've taken the approach I have.... In my estimation, it's working.... -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Tue Feb 11 04:32:37 1997 BCC: @MOA.net Message-ID: <33003CB5.3B70@moa.net> Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 04:32:37 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: SManeck@berry.edu Subject: Re: Others References: <25C1BC4221F@odin.berry.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Content-Length: 907 Susan Maneck wrote: > > Dear Frederick, > > I fear the "bulk" of those who find the environment on SRB oppressive > and might be interested in your list will be CBs. Most other types of > "dissidents" manage to find a home on Talisman. Of course there are a > few right-wingers like John Hauknes whose posts get turned down > regularly. > > Susan I hope you're wrong. Talisman may style itself the bastion of free speech and liberalism, but I'm afraid I know better. I'm tired of nannies in this religion policing others' thoughts.... That's my only motive, really. Let's see what happens. Given the stagnant state of the Faith, it's worth a try. I genuinely believe it ought to help.... I don't expect most Bahais will understand that or why I've taken the approach I have.... In my estimation, it's working.... -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Mon Feb 10 08:05:57 1997 BCC: @MOA.net Message-ID: <32FF1D35.6A29@moa.net> Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 08:05:57 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: smaneck@berry.edu Subject: Others Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 2316 I hope this guy isn't a covenant breaker... ---- Re: talk.religion.bahai >From "Jeffrey A. Goldberg" Organization MegsInet, Inc. - Midwestern Internet Services Date Sat, 08 Feb 1997 17:39:39 -0600 Newsgroups news.groups Message-ID <32FD0EBB.3F94@megsinet.net> References 1 2 3 4 5 > Frederick Glaysher wrote: > > > > [Please reject or post this message.] > > > > Since a few people have requested examples of censorship on > > soc.religion.bahai, I've posted them to news.groups. The > > file CENSORED#1--S.R.B. is a 740k file. Unless you don't > > mind a long wait, you might want to avoid that one. The > > others are brief excerpts of 10k or so. > > > > Watch for the CFV and please vote YES for the creation of an > > unmoderated, uncensored forum: talk.religion.bahai > > > > -- > > Frederick Glaysher > > Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > I refuse to post on soc.religion.bahai because of the arbitrary and mean-spirited manner of censorship practiced by the moderators. The discussion is so controlled that no self-respecting Baha'i or anyone else should post there. I don't understand the newsgroup creation process, but I support you in your quest for an unmoderated newsgroup. >Thanks for having the courage to say so. Would you consider reposting >this to news.groups so others can read it? Discussion about forming >talk.religion.bahai is supposed to take place there, on >soc.religion.bahai, >or crossposted always to news.groups. >It's very important that people hear srb is "arbitrary and >mean-spirited" >from someone other than myself. I can get sense many think so, but >they're scared to state it..... You have too vote in a week or two for >your opinion to count. Watch for the CFV (Call For Votes). Consider it posted.... arbitrary and mean-spirited they are. The problem with this vote is that all of the people who were long ago fed up with the manner that the baha'i newsgroup has been moderated probably are no longer paying attention to this and therefore you won't reach them. The only ones to consider this are those on the discussion group who do not mind having their thoughts reviewed. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Fri Feb 07 18:37:58 1997 BCC: @MOA.net Message-ID: <32FBBCD6.1242@moa.net> Date: Fri, 07 Feb 1997 18:37:58 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dopost@grunt.dejanews.com Subject: please post References: <199702072200.QAA04173@grunt.dejanews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 6088 dopost@grunt.dejanews.com wrote: > > [A reply is required to post your article. (If you did not request this, > please do not reply to this email, instead read the instructions at the > bottom of this note, and send any questions to postnews@dejanews.com).] > > You have requested that the following article be posted to Usenet via the > Posting Service at Deja News. Your article is currently sitting in our > spool waiting for you to authorize it by following the following > instructions: > > TO POST YOUR ARTICLE PLEASE READ AND FOLLOW THESE INSTRUCTIONS: > --------------------------------------------------------------- > - You must reply to this email, including the ENTIRE text of this email in > the reply. (It's okay if your email program inserts characters in the left > hand column, e.g. '>', or whatever). The reply MUST be sent to: > dopost@postnews.dejanews.com > - You must change the Subject: header of your reply to contain the > words: "PLEASE POST" (capitalization doesn't matter). (Note: this is the > Subject header of the message you send to us, not the subject header of the > article you wish to have posted). > > [The following string must not be changed/modified/wrapped/truncated.] > TRANSID:010f60144d2514c135d30b1f06235bb85b79ccc8c4cb > ===================================================================== ====== > From: @moa.net > Subject: Response to Mark Towfiq > Newsgroups: news.groups > Message-Id: <855352728.4063@dejanews.com> > Reply-To: @moa.net > Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service > To: towfiq@east.sun.com > References: <854889179.13648@dejanews.com> <32F4EC46.5EB3@why.net> <854976466.18697@dejanews.com> <32F66B3F.2C7C@east.sun.com> <855231267.29104@dejanews.com> <32FA096E.7CED@east.sun.com> > X-Article-Creation-Date: Fri Feb 07 21:58:49 1997 GMT > X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.89 (ppp-pm02-dy-25.ouhub.moa.net) > X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) > > In article <32FA096E.7CED@east.sun.com>, > Mark Towfiq wrote: > > > > I don't know what you mean by "censorship in the Baha'i Faith", and I > > don't know what it has to do with a USENET newsgroups running under > > USENET guidelines. If people want to talk about the moderation of > > soc.religion.bahai, news.groups exists just for that purpose. > > > > Any guidelines can be abused. Read my postings of censored messages > to news.groups.... > > > >> If there is genuinely a problem with the moderation, or "censorship", > > >> as Mr. Glaysher refers to it, then wouldn't it make more sense to > > >> examine that question first, rather than creating a new newsgroup > > >> because one individual was upset his postings weren't rubber-stamped > > >> through? > > > > False. It's beyond hope. You reform, I'll create anew. That's my > proposal.... > > [clip] > > > > > From all of your postings, I see that you equate moderation with > > censorship, and unmoderation with freedom. That's not what it means in > > USENET; it is a way of keeping the quality of a discussion at a high > > level. > > > > I suppose your strategem here is to equate my preference for > religious conscience and freedom with libertine indulgence and > "unmoderation." > > > I don't think this should even go to a CFV; it seems that one > > individual, who says that the nature of moderation is censorship, wants > > a newsgroup for himself, and is unwilling to engage in a discussion > > about what is wrong with the moderation of soc.religion.bahai. > > > > I'm not surprised. It seems to me that one individual is very > eager to prevent the creation of an uncensored, unmanipulated, > uncontrolled, free, open, democratic forum within which discussion > can take place. Why is that? What are you afraid of? I certainly > do not want a newsgroup for myself--far from it. I want it for > every man, woman, and child on the face of this earth who wishes > to express themselves in regard to the Bahai Faith. Does that > scare you? Why? What's the matter? What are you hiding? Why > are you so desperate for a strangle hold to be maintained? > > > I have engaged in discussion about what's wrong with the moderation > of s.r.b. I've posted examples to news.groups. Again, read them. > > Why are you misrepresenting me as not engaging in discussion? > > > Mark > > Frederick Glaysher > Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > > -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- > https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet > > ===================================================================== ====== > > WHAT TO DO IF YOU DID NOT REQUEST THIS POSTING: > ---------------------------------------------- > [This article has NOT yet been posted to Usenet. The reason we send this > email is to authenticate the author of articles we post.] > > If you did not request this article be posted to Usenet via the Deja News > service, that could mean someone using our service forged your address and > attempted to make this article appear as if you had posted it. The person > who did this used the IP address we log in the X-Originating-IP-Addr: > header field of the posting. This person may be able to be traced if you > contact the system administrator at their site. > > If you would like us to try to find out if someone forged your address, > please write to postnews@dejanews.com, include a statement like "I didn't > write this, please find out who did", and include this entire message. We > will try to help you as much as we can, but we are not a legal body and > other system administrators are not always cooperative, so we cannot > promise any results. We are sorry for any inconvenience. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Sat Feb 08 06:29:13 1997 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.89) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Fri, 07 Feb 1997 18:30:29 -0500 Message-ID: <32FBBCD6.1242@moa.net> Date: Fri, 07 Feb 1997 18:37:58 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dopost@grunt.dejanews.com Subject: please post References: <199702072200.QAA04173@grunt.dejanews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 6086 dopost@grunt.dejanews.com wrote: > > [A reply is required to post your article. (If you did not request this, > please do not reply to this email, instead read the instructions at the > bottom of this note, and send any questions to postnews@dejanews.com).] > > You have requested that the following article be posted to Usenet via the > Posting Service at Deja News. Your article is currently sitting in our > spool waiting for you to authorize it by following the following > instructions: > > TO POST YOUR ARTICLE PLEASE READ AND FOLLOW THESE INSTRUCTIONS: > --------------------------------------------------------------- > - You must reply to this email, including the ENTIRE text of this email in > the reply. (It's okay if your email program inserts characters in the left > hand column, e.g. '>', or whatever). The reply MUST be sent to: > dopost@postnews.dejanews.com > - You must change the Subject: header of your reply to contain the > words: "PLEASE POST" (capitalization doesn't matter). (Note: this is the > Subject header of the message you send to us, not the subject header of the > article you wish to have posted). > > [The following string must not be changed/modified/wrapped/truncated.] > TRANSID:010f60144d2514c135d30b1f06235bb85b79ccc8c4cb > ===================================================================== ====== > From: @moa.net > Subject: Response to Mark Towfiq > Newsgroups: news.groups > Message-Id: <855352728.4063@dejanews.com> > Reply-To: @moa.net > Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service > To: towfiq@east.sun.com > References: <854889179.13648@dejanews.com> <32F4EC46.5EB3@why.net> <854976466.18697@dejanews.com> <32F66B3F.2C7C@east.sun.com> <855231267.29104@dejanews.com> <32FA096E.7CED@east.sun.com> > X-Article-Creation-Date: Fri Feb 07 21:58:49 1997 GMT > X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.89 (ppp-pm02-dy-25.ouhub.moa.net) > X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) > > In article <32FA096E.7CED@east.sun.com>, > Mark Towfiq wrote: > > > > I don't know what you mean by "censorship in the Baha'i Faith", and I > > don't know what it has to do with a USENET newsgroups running under > > USENET guidelines. If people want to talk about the moderation of > > soc.religion.bahai, news.groups exists just for that purpose. > > > > Any guidelines can be abused. Read my postings of censored messages > to news.groups.... > > > >> If there is genuinely a problem with the moderation, or "censorship", > > >> as Mr. Glaysher refers to it, then wouldn't it make more sense to > > >> examine that question first, rather than creating a new newsgroup > > >> because one individual was upset his postings weren't rubber-stamped > > >> through? > > > > False. It's beyond hope. You reform, I'll create anew. That's my > proposal.... > > [clip] > > > > > From all of your postings, I see that you equate moderation with > > censorship, and unmoderation with freedom. That's not what it means in > > USENET; it is a way of keeping the quality of a discussion at a high > > level. > > > > I suppose your strategem here is to equate my preference for > religious conscience and freedom with libertine indulgence and > "unmoderation." > > > I don't think this should even go to a CFV; it seems that one > > individual, who says that the nature of moderation is censorship, wants > > a newsgroup for himself, and is unwilling to engage in a discussion > > about what is wrong with the moderation of soc.religion.bahai. > > > > I'm not surprised. It seems to me that one individual is very > eager to prevent the creation of an uncensored, unmanipulated, > uncontrolled, free, open, democratic forum within which discussion > can take place. Why is that? What are you afraid of? I certainly > do not want a newsgroup for myself--far from it. I want it for > every man, woman, and child on the face of this earth who wishes > to express themselves in regard to the Bahai Faith. Does that > scare you? Why? What's the matter? What are you hiding? Why > are you so desperate for a strangle hold to be maintained? > > > I have engaged in discussion about what's wrong with the moderation > of s.r.b. I've posted examples to news.groups. Again, read them. > > Why are you misrepresenting me as not engaging in discussion? > > > Mark > > Frederick Glaysher > Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > > -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- > https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet > > ===================================================================== ====== > > WHAT TO DO IF YOU DID NOT REQUEST THIS POSTING: > ---------------------------------------------- > [This article has NOT yet been posted to Usenet. The reason we send this > email is to authenticate the author of articles we post.] > > If you did not request this article be posted to Usenet via the Deja News > service, that could mean someone using our service forged your address and > attempted to make this article appear as if you had posted it. The person > who did this used the IP address we log in the X-Originating-IP-Addr: > header field of the posting. This person may be able to be traced if you > contact the system administrator at their site. > > If you would like us to try to find out if someone forged your address, > please write to postnews@dejanews.com, include a statement like "I didn't > write this, please find out who did", and include this entire message. We > will try to help you as much as we can, but we are not a legal body and > other system administrators are not always cooperative, so we cannot > promise any results. We are sorry for any inconvenience. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Sat Feb 08 07:18:00 1997 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.89) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Fri, 07 Feb 1997 18:30:29 -0500 Message-ID: <32FBBCD6.1242@moa.net> Date: Fri, 07 Feb 1997 18:37:58 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dopost@grunt.dejanews.com Subject: please post References: <199702072200.QAA04173@grunt.dejanews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 6086 dopost@grunt.dejanews.com wrote: > > [A reply is required to post your article. (If you did not request this, > please do not reply to this email, instead read the instructions at the > bottom of this note, and send any questions to postnews@dejanews.com).] > > You have requested that the following article be posted to Usenet via the > Posting Service at Deja News. Your article is currently sitting in our > spool waiting for you to authorize it by following the following > instructions: > > TO POST YOUR ARTICLE PLEASE READ AND FOLLOW THESE INSTRUCTIONS: > --------------------------------------------------------------- > - You must reply to this email, including the ENTIRE text of this email in > the reply. (It's okay if your email program inserts characters in the left > hand column, e.g. '>', or whatever). The reply MUST be sent to: > dopost@postnews.dejanews.com > - You must change the Subject: header of your reply to contain the > words: "PLEASE POST" (capitalization doesn't matter). (Note: this is the > Subject header of the message you send to us, not the subject header of the > article you wish to have posted). > > [The following string must not be changed/modified/wrapped/truncated.] > TRANSID:010f60144d2514c135d30b1f06235bb85b79ccc8c4cb > ===================================================================== ====== > From: @moa.net > Subject: Response to Mark Towfiq > Newsgroups: news.groups > Message-Id: <855352728.4063@dejanews.com> > Reply-To: @moa.net > Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service > To: towfiq@east.sun.com > References: <854889179.13648@dejanews.com> <32F4EC46.5EB3@why.net> <854976466.18697@dejanews.com> <32F66B3F.2C7C@east.sun.com> <855231267.29104@dejanews.com> <32FA096E.7CED@east.sun.com> > X-Article-Creation-Date: Fri Feb 07 21:58:49 1997 GMT > X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.89 (ppp-pm02-dy-25.ouhub.moa.net) > X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) > > In article <32FA096E.7CED@east.sun.com>, > Mark Towfiq wrote: > > > > I don't know what you mean by "censorship in the Baha'i Faith", and I > > don't know what it has to do with a USENET newsgroups running under > > USENET guidelines. If people want to talk about the moderation of > > soc.religion.bahai, news.groups exists just for that purpose. > > > > Any guidelines can be abused. Read my postings of censored messages > to news.groups.... > > > >> If there is genuinely a problem with the moderation, or "censorship", > > >> as Mr. Glaysher refers to it, then wouldn't it make more sense to > > >> examine that question first, rather than creating a new newsgroup > > >> because one individual was upset his postings weren't rubber-stamped > > >> through? > > > > False. It's beyond hope. You reform, I'll create anew. That's my > proposal.... > > [clip] > > > > > From all of your postings, I see that you equate moderation with > > censorship, and unmoderation with freedom. That's not what it means in > > USENET; it is a way of keeping the quality of a discussion at a high > > level. > > > > I suppose your strategem here is to equate my preference for > religious conscience and freedom with libertine indulgence and > "unmoderation." > > > I don't think this should even go to a CFV; it seems that one > > individual, who says that the nature of moderation is censorship, wants > > a newsgroup for himself, and is unwilling to engage in a discussion > > about what is wrong with the moderation of soc.religion.bahai. > > > > I'm not surprised. It seems to me that one individual is very > eager to prevent the creation of an uncensored, unmanipulated, > uncontrolled, free, open, democratic forum within which discussion > can take place. Why is that? What are you afraid of? I certainly > do not want a newsgroup for myself--far from it. I want it for > every man, woman, and child on the face of this earth who wishes > to express themselves in regard to the Bahai Faith. Does that > scare you? Why? What's the matter? What are you hiding? Why > are you so desperate for a strangle hold to be maintained? > > > I have engaged in discussion about what's wrong with the moderation > of s.r.b. I've posted examples to news.groups. Again, read them. > > Why are you misrepresenting me as not engaging in discussion? > > > Mark > > Frederick Glaysher > Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > > -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- > https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet > > ===================================================================== ====== > > WHAT TO DO IF YOU DID NOT REQUEST THIS POSTING: > ---------------------------------------------- > [This article has NOT yet been posted to Usenet. The reason we send this > email is to authenticate the author of articles we post.] > > If you did not request this article be posted to Usenet via the Deja News > service, that could mean someone using our service forged your address and > attempted to make this article appear as if you had posted it. The person > who did this used the IP address we log in the X-Originating-IP-Addr: > header field of the posting. This person may be able to be traced if you > contact the system administrator at their site. > > If you would like us to try to find out if someone forged your address, > please write to postnews@dejanews.com, include a statement like "I didn't > write this, please find out who did", and include this entire message. We > will try to help you as much as we can, but we are not a legal body and > other system administrators are not always cooperative, so we cannot > promise any results. We are sorry for any inconvenience. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Sat Feb 08 05:53:08 1997 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.89) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Fri, 07 Feb 1997 18:30:29 -0500 Message-ID: <32FBBCD6.1242@moa.net> Date: Fri, 07 Feb 1997 18:37:58 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dopost@grunt.dejanews.com Subject: please post References: <199702072200.QAA04173@grunt.dejanews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 6086 dopost@grunt.dejanews.com wrote: > > [A reply is required to post your article. (If you did not request this, > please do not reply to this email, instead read the instructions at the > bottom of this note, and send any questions to postnews@dejanews.com).] > > You have requested that the following article be posted to Usenet via the > Posting Service at Deja News. Your article is currently sitting in our > spool waiting for you to authorize it by following the following > instructions: > > TO POST YOUR ARTICLE PLEASE READ AND FOLLOW THESE INSTRUCTIONS: > --------------------------------------------------------------- > - You must reply to this email, including the ENTIRE text of this email in > the reply. (It's okay if your email program inserts characters in the left > hand column, e.g. '>', or whatever). The reply MUST be sent to: > dopost@postnews.dejanews.com > - You must change the Subject: header of your reply to contain the > words: "PLEASE POST" (capitalization doesn't matter). (Note: this is the > Subject header of the message you send to us, not the subject header of the > article you wish to have posted). > > [The following string must not be changed/modified/wrapped/truncated.] > TRANSID:010f60144d2514c135d30b1f06235bb85b79ccc8c4cb > ===================================================================== ====== > From: @moa.net > Subject: Response to Mark Towfiq > Newsgroups: news.groups > Message-Id: <855352728.4063@dejanews.com> > Reply-To: @moa.net > Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service > To: towfiq@east.sun.com > References: <854889179.13648@dejanews.com> <32F4EC46.5EB3@why.net> <854976466.18697@dejanews.com> <32F66B3F.2C7C@east.sun.com> <855231267.29104@dejanews.com> <32FA096E.7CED@east.sun.com> > X-Article-Creation-Date: Fri Feb 07 21:58:49 1997 GMT > X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.89 (ppp-pm02-dy-25.ouhub.moa.net) > X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) > > In article <32FA096E.7CED@east.sun.com>, > Mark Towfiq wrote: > > > > I don't know what you mean by "censorship in the Baha'i Faith", and I > > don't know what it has to do with a USENET newsgroups running under > > USENET guidelines. If people want to talk about the moderation of > > soc.religion.bahai, news.groups exists just for that purpose. > > > > Any guidelines can be abused. Read my postings of censored messages > to news.groups.... > > > >> If there is genuinely a problem with the moderation, or "censorship", > > >> as Mr. Glaysher refers to it, then wouldn't it make more sense to > > >> examine that question first, rather than creating a new newsgroup > > >> because one individual was upset his postings weren't rubber-stamped > > >> through? > > > > False. It's beyond hope. You reform, I'll create anew. That's my > proposal.... > > [clip] > > > > > From all of your postings, I see that you equate moderation with > > censorship, and unmoderation with freedom. That's not what it means in > > USENET; it is a way of keeping the quality of a discussion at a high > > level. > > > > I suppose your strategem here is to equate my preference for > religious conscience and freedom with libertine indulgence and > "unmoderation." > > > I don't think this should even go to a CFV; it seems that one > > individual, who says that the nature of moderation is censorship, wants > > a newsgroup for himself, and is unwilling to engage in a discussion > > about what is wrong with the moderation of soc.religion.bahai. > > > > I'm not surprised. It seems to me that one individual is very > eager to prevent the creation of an uncensored, unmanipulated, > uncontrolled, free, open, democratic forum within which discussion > can take place. Why is that? What are you afraid of? I certainly > do not want a newsgroup for myself--far from it. I want it for > every man, woman, and child on the face of this earth who wishes > to express themselves in regard to the Bahai Faith. Does that > scare you? Why? What's the matter? What are you hiding? Why > are you so desperate for a strangle hold to be maintained? > > > I have engaged in discussion about what's wrong with the moderation > of s.r.b. I've posted examples to news.groups. Again, read them. > > Why are you misrepresenting me as not engaging in discussion? > > > Mark > > Frederick Glaysher > Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > > -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- > https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet > > ===================================================================== ====== > > WHAT TO DO IF YOU DID NOT REQUEST THIS POSTING: > ---------------------------------------------- > [This article has NOT yet been posted to Usenet. The reason we send this > email is to authenticate the author of articles we post.] > > If you did not request this article be posted to Usenet via the Deja News > service, that could mean someone using our service forged your address and > attempted to make this article appear as if you had posted it. The person > who did this used the IP address we log in the X-Originating-IP-Addr: > header field of the posting. This person may be able to be traced if you > contact the system administrator at their site. > > If you would like us to try to find out if someone forged your address, > please write to postnews@dejanews.com, include a statement like "I didn't > write this, please find out who did", and include this entire message. We > will try to help you as much as we can, but we are not a legal body and > other system administrators are not always cooperative, so we cannot > promise any results. We are sorry for any inconvenience. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Sun Feb 09 07:58:06 1997 BCC: @MOA.net Message-ID: <32FDC9DE.1A45@moa.net> Date: Sun, 09 Feb 1997 07:58:06 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dopost@grunt.dejanews.com Subject: please post References: <199702091156.FAA32763@grunt.dejanews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 11279 dopost@grunt.dejanews.com wrote: > > [A reply is required to post your article. (If you did not request this, > please do not reply to this email, instead read the instructions at the > bottom of this note, and send any questions to postnews@dejanews.com).] > > You have requested that the following article be posted to Usenet via the > Posting Service at Deja News. Your article is currently sitting in our > spool waiting for you to authorize it by following the following > instructions: > > TO POST YOUR ARTICLE PLEASE READ AND FOLLOW THESE INSTRUCTIONS: > --------------------------------------------------------------- > - You must reply to this email, including the ENTIRE text of this email in > the reply. (It's okay if your email program inserts characters in the left > hand column, e.g. '>', or whatever). The reply MUST be sent to: > dopost@postnews.dejanews.com > - You must change the Subject: header of your reply to contain the > words: "PLEASE POST" (capitalization doesn't matter). (Note: this is the > Subject header of the message you send to us, not the subject header of the > article you wish to have posted). > > [The following string must not be changed/modified/wrapped/truncated.] > TRANSID:214f0004cda5e411170184e6855b7bba310666ad3290 > ===================================================================== ====== > From: @moa.net > Subject: Censored S.R.Bahai #1 > Newsgroups: news.groups > Message-Id: <855489378.32756@dejanews.com> > Reply-To: @moa.net > Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service > X-Article-Creation-Date: Sun Feb 09 11:56:22 1997 GMT > X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.47 (ppp-pm01-dy-15.ouhub.moa.net) > X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) > > From - Thu Nov 07 16:39:58 1996 > Message-ID: <3282572E.2005@moa.net> > Date: Thu, 07 Nov 1996 16:39:58 -0500 > From: <@moa.net> > Organization: > X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) > MIME-Version: 1.0 > To: "Richard C. Detweiler" > Subject: Re: statement of principles part 1 > References: <199611071911.MAA13396@primenet.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 > > Richard C. Detweiler wrote: > > > > Dear Friend, > > > > Thank you for your submission to soc.religion.bahai. > > > > I am returningthis to you for editting. I cannot allow the blanket > > statements: > > I refuse to edit my post in any way whatsoever. Your role as a moderator > is not > to be a fascist and stunt the serious exchange of ideas. Incidentally, > "editting" > is spelt with one "t." > > > > > > It seems to me the growth of the Faith has been perhaps hopelessly > stunted by > > > the Iranian Baha'i influence upon the understanding of its teachings, > > > especially in this regard. > > > > and > > > > > and modest possibilities of human material. One that that such > cultures as that > > > of Iran blithely ignore in their futile, primitive, brutal search for > perfection > > > and obedience. > > > > to be postedi to the newsgroup. As stated with no supporting > information, > > these statements are unfair stereotypes which could cause a lot of heat > with > > no new light. :-) Please either strike them or edit them to make them > more > > general or backed up by fact. > > > > Thank you for participating, > > > > Dick Detweiler > > rdetweil@primenet.com > > Co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai > > > > ================ Begin submitted post ========================= > > > > > To: soc-religion-bahai@uunet.uu.net > > > Path: ppp-pm01-dy-1.ouhub.moa.net > > > From: <@moa.net> > > > Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai > > > Subject: Re: statement of principles part 1 > > > Date: Thu, 07 Nov 1996 11:08:44 -0500 > > > Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A. > > > Lines: 87 > > > Message-ID: <3282098C.31E@moa.net> > > > References: <55sp6p$q76@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> > > > NNTP-Posting-Host: zeus.moa.net > > > Mime-Version: 1.0 > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) > > > To: karl1971@aol.com > > > > > > karl1971@aol.com wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Personally, over the years I've been incredibly disillusioned with > the Bahai > > > > Community. I was brainwashed to believe it meant a lot of things > it > > > > doesn't. To, illustrate, I can still remember going to a youth > deepening > > > > when I was 17 and hearing this highly respected fiery lipped > ex-radical > > > > ominously railing to us guys about "locker room talk" --- basically > in her > > > > war like ways she was trying to instill a sense of shame for > thinking > > > > unchaste thoughts ---- which was good in a sense ---- but believe > me, the way > > > > she worded herself was absolute condescending nonsense. She > cleverly made it > > > > sound like it was a terrible crime to get horny. --- The point > being, at the > > > > time, being a na ve kid, I took her way too seriously. > > > > > > > > > > Karl, people are evil and twist and debase every political and > religious form to > > > their own purposes. I've witnessed this same kind of thing in the > Baha'i Faith > > > many, many times. Who, if they have even a modicum of honesty and > perspicacity, > > > hasn't? > > > > > > > As you know, the Bahai Faith doesn't have priests, preachers, or any > > > > individuals who have the responsibility of telling people what to > do, unlike > > > > churches. However, from my experience I've discovered associating > with > > > > "Bahais" and not expecting them to play the roles of surrogate > priests and > > > > surrogate parish to be incredibly wishful and foolish thinking. > > > > > > > > > > Many people are all too willing to ASSUME these roles--through > election or > > > otherwise makes little difference. Tainted wine in new vessels. > > > > > > > > > > > Moreover, it is precisely this sense of distrust for people in an > > > > authoritative position such as priests, that in my opinion, strikes > a nerve > > > > in America's character. ---- If one needs good tactics for mass > enrollments > > > > in the U.S., my suggestion is that we start with those aspects of > the Faith > > > > that appeal to those who have good reasons to distrust authority. > After all, > > > > isn't this distrust a tradition in this country? > > > > > > > > > > It seems to me the growth of the Faith has been perhaps hopelessly > stunted by > > > the Iranian Baha'i influence upon the understanding of its teachings, > > > especially in this regard. > > > > > > > If one needs a reason to see why its so easy for people not to be > Bahais, or > > > > for that matter, why it's so easy to disobey the Laws of God, look > no further > > > > than members of the influential Bahai Community playing surrogate > priests to > > > > those foolish enough to play surrogate parish ----- Which has the > inevitable > > > > effect of denying what's a part of life: what's worth respecting, > what's > > > > worth being ashamed of, and what's worth forgiving. > > > > > > > > > > You, sir, have an Antinomian mind; you should OBEY!!!! > > > > > > > These roles have this effect because sooner or later a parish will > wonder if > > > > the priest is worth putting on a pedestal. As such, it will > eventually see > > > > the natural flaws in his character and not take a damn thing he > says > > > > seriously. Whereas with independent investigation of truth, which > > > > Baha'u'llah so brilliantly condones, there are no flaws to be > disillusioned > > > > with. > > > > > > > > > > In Young Goodman Brown, Hawthorne perceived it long ago: "Evil is the > Nature > > > of Mankind." I also recall Ecclessiates: "The heart of the sons of > men is > > > full of evil." > > > > > > > If one needs a good subject for a fireside or a deepening, I > strongly > > > > recommend we deepen each other on whatever it takes to > psychologically break > > > > whatever it is that compels us to play such roles. > > > > > > In Some Answered Questions, Abdul-Baha says of evil, it "continues and > endures." > > > Not at all an upbeat modern concept full of psychological hope. > > > > > > >"I have sworn eternal hostility to all forms of Tyranny against the > minds > > > >of man." - Thomas Jefferson > > > > > > >Maybe that's why the U.S. is the cradle of the Faith. What other > countries > > > >are founded on such principles? > > > > > > You make me think of James Madison in the Federalist Papers: "I never > expect > > > to see a perfect thing from imperfect man." An exceedingly Western, > Christian, > > > American notion, though all the great religions have a sense of the > limitations > > > and modest possibilities of human material. One that that such > cultures as that > > > of Iran blithely ignore in their futile, primitive, brutal search for > perfection > > > and obedience. > > > > > > Frederick Glaysher > > > Rochester, Michigan, USA > > > > > > > ================ End submitted post =========================== > > -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- > https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet > > ===================================================================== ====== > > WHAT TO DO IF YOU DID NOT REQUEST THIS POSTING: > ---------------------------------------------- > [This article has NOT yet been posted to Usenet. The reason we send this > email is to authenticate the author of articles we post.] > > If you did not request this article be posted to Usenet via the Deja News > service, that could mean someone using our service forged your address and > attempted to make this article appear as if you had posted it. The person > who did this used the IP address we log in the X-Originating-IP-Addr: > header field of the posting. This person may be able to be traced if you > contact the system administrator at their site. > > If you would like us to try to find out if someone forged your address, > please write to postnews@dejanews.com, include a statement like "I didn't > write this, please find out who did", and include this entire message. We > will try to help you as much as we can, but we are not a legal body and > other system administrators are not always cooperative, so we cannot > promise any results. We are sorry for any inconvenience. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Sun Feb 09 07:58:53 1997 BCC: @MOA.net Message-ID: <32FDCA0D.2062@moa.net> Date: Sun, 09 Feb 1997 07:58:53 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dopost@grunt.dejanews.com Subject: please post References: <199702091156.FAA32763@grunt.dejanews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 11279 dopost@grunt.dejanews.com wrote: > > [A reply is required to post your article. (If you did not request this, > please do not reply to this email, instead read the instructions at the > bottom of this note, and send any questions to postnews@dejanews.com).] > > You have requested that the following article be posted to Usenet via the > Posting Service at Deja News. Your article is currently sitting in our > spool waiting for you to authorize it by following the following > instructions: > > TO POST YOUR ARTICLE PLEASE READ AND FOLLOW THESE INSTRUCTIONS: > --------------------------------------------------------------- > - You must reply to this email, including the ENTIRE text of this email in > the reply. (It's okay if your email program inserts characters in the left > hand column, e.g. '>', or whatever). The reply MUST be sent to: > dopost@postnews.dejanews.com > - You must change the Subject: header of your reply to contain the > words: "PLEASE POST" (capitalization doesn't matter). (Note: this is the > Subject header of the message you send to us, not the subject header of the > article you wish to have posted). > > [The following string must not be changed/modified/wrapped/truncated.] > TRANSID:214f0004cda5e411170184e6855b7bba310666ad3290 > ===================================================================== ====== > From: @moa.net > Subject: Censored S.R.Bahai #1 > Newsgroups: news.groups > Message-Id: <855489378.32756@dejanews.com> > Reply-To: @moa.net > Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service > X-Article-Creation-Date: Sun Feb 09 11:56:22 1997 GMT > X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.47 (ppp-pm01-dy-15.ouhub.moa.net) > X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) > > From - Thu Nov 07 16:39:58 1996 > Message-ID: <3282572E.2005@moa.net> > Date: Thu, 07 Nov 1996 16:39:58 -0500 > From: <@moa.net> > Organization: > X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) > MIME-Version: 1.0 > To: "Richard C. Detweiler" > Subject: Re: statement of principles part 1 > References: <199611071911.MAA13396@primenet.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 > > Richard C. Detweiler wrote: > > > > Dear Friend, > > > > Thank you for your submission to soc.religion.bahai. > > > > I am returningthis to you for editting. I cannot allow the blanket > > statements: > > I refuse to edit my post in any way whatsoever. Your role as a moderator > is not > to be a fascist and stunt the serious exchange of ideas. Incidentally, > "editting" > is spelt with one "t." > > > > > > It seems to me the growth of the Faith has been perhaps hopelessly > stunted by > > > the Iranian Baha'i influence upon the understanding of its teachings, > > > especially in this regard. > > > > and > > > > > and modest possibilities of human material. One that that such > cultures as that > > > of Iran blithely ignore in their futile, primitive, brutal search for > perfection > > > and obedience. > > > > to be postedi to the newsgroup. As stated with no supporting > information, > > these statements are unfair stereotypes which could cause a lot of heat > with > > no new light. :-) Please either strike them or edit them to make them > more > > general or backed up by fact. > > > > Thank you for participating, > > > > Dick Detweiler > > rdetweil@primenet.com > > Co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai > > > > ================ Begin submitted post ========================= > > > > > To: soc-religion-bahai@uunet.uu.net > > > Path: ppp-pm01-dy-1.ouhub.moa.net > > > From: <@moa.net> > > > Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai > > > Subject: Re: statement of principles part 1 > > > Date: Thu, 07 Nov 1996 11:08:44 -0500 > > > Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A. > > > Lines: 87 > > > Message-ID: <3282098C.31E@moa.net> > > > References: <55sp6p$q76@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> > > > NNTP-Posting-Host: zeus.moa.net > > > Mime-Version: 1.0 > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) > > > To: karl1971@aol.com > > > > > > karl1971@aol.com wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Personally, over the years I've been incredibly disillusioned with > the Bahai > > > > Community. I was brainwashed to believe it meant a lot of things > it > > > > doesn't. To, illustrate, I can still remember going to a youth > deepening > > > > when I was 17 and hearing this highly respected fiery lipped > ex-radical > > > > ominously railing to us guys about "locker room talk" --- basically > in her > > > > war like ways she was trying to instill a sense of shame for > thinking > > > > unchaste thoughts ---- which was good in a sense ---- but believe > me, the way > > > > she worded herself was absolute condescending nonsense. She > cleverly made it > > > > sound like it was a terrible crime to get horny. --- The point > being, at the > > > > time, being a na ve kid, I took her way too seriously. > > > > > > > > > > Karl, people are evil and twist and debase every political and > religious form to > > > their own purposes. I've witnessed this same kind of thing in the > Baha'i Faith > > > many, many times. Who, if they have even a modicum of honesty and > perspicacity, > > > hasn't? > > > > > > > As you know, the Bahai Faith doesn't have priests, preachers, or any > > > > individuals who have the responsibility of telling people what to > do, unlike > > > > churches. However, from my experience I've discovered associating > with > > > > "Bahais" and not expecting them to play the roles of surrogate > priests and > > > > surrogate parish to be incredibly wishful and foolish thinking. > > > > > > > > > > Many people are all too willing to ASSUME these roles--through > election or > > > otherwise makes little difference. Tainted wine in new vessels. > > > > > > > > > > > Moreover, it is precisely this sense of distrust for people in an > > > > authoritative position such as priests, that in my opinion, strikes > a nerve > > > > in America's character. ---- If one needs good tactics for mass > enrollments > > > > in the U.S., my suggestion is that we start with those aspects of > the Faith > > > > that appeal to those who have good reasons to distrust authority. > After all, > > > > isn't this distrust a tradition in this country? > > > > > > > > > > It seems to me the growth of the Faith has been perhaps hopelessly > stunted by > > > the Iranian Baha'i influence upon the understanding of its teachings, > > > especially in this regard. > > > > > > > If one needs a reason to see why its so easy for people not to be > Bahais, or > > > > for that matter, why it's so easy to disobey the Laws of God, look > no further > > > > than members of the influential Bahai Community playing surrogate > priests to > > > > those foolish enough to play surrogate parish ----- Which has the > inevitable > > > > effect of denying what's a part of life: what's worth respecting, > what's > > > > worth being ashamed of, and what's worth forgiving. > > > > > > > > > > You, sir, have an Antinomian mind; you should OBEY!!!! > > > > > > > These roles have this effect because sooner or later a parish will > wonder if > > > > the priest is worth putting on a pedestal. As such, it will > eventually see > > > > the natural flaws in his character and not take a damn thing he > says > > > > seriously. Whereas with independent investigation of truth, which > > > > Baha'u'llah so brilliantly condones, there are no flaws to be > disillusioned > > > > with. > > > > > > > > > > In Young Goodman Brown, Hawthorne perceived it long ago: "Evil is the > Nature > > > of Mankind." I also recall Ecclessiates: "The heart of the sons of > men is > > > full of evil." > > > > > > > If one needs a good subject for a fireside or a deepening, I > strongly > > > > recommend we deepen each other on whatever it takes to > psychologically break > > > > whatever it is that compels us to play such roles. > > > > > > In Some Answered Questions, Abdul-Baha says of evil, it "continues and > endures." > > > Not at all an upbeat modern concept full of psychological hope. > > > > > > >"I have sworn eternal hostility to all forms of Tyranny against the > minds > > > >of man." - Thomas Jefferson > > > > > > >Maybe that's why the U.S. is the cradle of the Faith. What other > countries > > > >are founded on such principles? > > > > > > You make me think of James Madison in the Federalist Papers: "I never > expect > > > to see a perfect thing from imperfect man." An exceedingly Western, > Christian, > > > American notion, though all the great religions have a sense of the > limitations > > > and modest possibilities of human material. One that that such > cultures as that > > > of Iran blithely ignore in their futile, primitive, brutal search for > perfection > > > and obedience. > > > > > > Frederick Glaysher > > > Rochester, Michigan, USA > > > > > > > ================ End submitted post =========================== > > -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- > https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet > > ===================================================================== ====== > > WHAT TO DO IF YOU DID NOT REQUEST THIS POSTING: > ---------------------------------------------- > [This article has NOT yet been posted to Usenet. The reason we send this > email is to authenticate the author of articles we post.] > > If you did not request this article be posted to Usenet via the Deja News > service, that could mean someone using our service forged your address and > attempted to make this article appear as if you had posted it. The person > who did this used the IP address we log in the X-Originating-IP-Addr: > header field of the posting. This person may be able to be traced if you > contact the system administrator at their site. > > If you would like us to try to find out if someone forged your address, > please write to postnews@dejanews.com, include a statement like "I didn't > write this, please find out who did", and include this entire message. We > will try to help you as much as we can, but we are not a legal body and > other system administrators are not always cooperative, so we cannot > promise any results. We are sorry for any inconvenience. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Sun Feb 09 07:59:27 1997 BCC: @MOA.net Message-ID: <32FDCA2F.44D2@moa.net> Date: Sun, 09 Feb 1997 07:59:27 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dopost@grunt.dejanews.com Subject: please post References: <199702091159.FAA00019@grunt.dejanews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 6237 dopost@grunt.dejanews.com wrote: > > [A reply is required to post your article. (If you did not request this, > please do not reply to this email, instead read the instructions at the > bottom of this note, and send any questions to postnews@dejanews.com).] > > You have requested that the following article be posted to Usenet via the > Posting Service at Deja News. Your article is currently sitting in our > spool waiting for you to authorize it by following the following > instructions: > > TO POST YOUR ARTICLE PLEASE READ AND FOLLOW THESE INSTRUCTIONS: > --------------------------------------------------------------- > - You must reply to this email, including the ENTIRE text of this email in > the reply. (It's okay if your email program inserts characters in the left > hand column, e.g. '>', or whatever). The reply MUST be sent to: > dopost@postnews.dejanews.com > - You must change the Subject: header of your reply to contain the > words: "PLEASE POST" (capitalization doesn't matter). (Note: this is the > Subject header of the message you send to us, not the subject header of the > article you wish to have posted). > > [The following string must not be changed/modified/wrapped/truncated.] > TRANSID:11df1094dd350411c0c3e1fcf598628a871b8ed7716d > ===================================================================== ====== > From: @moa.net > Subject: Censored S.R.Bahai #2 > Newsgroups: news.groups > Message-Id: <855489555.11@dejanews.com> > Reply-To: @moa.net > Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service > To: @moa.net > X-Article-Creation-Date: Sun Feb 09 11:59:15 1997 GMT > X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.47 (ppp-pm01-dy-15.ouhub.moa.net) > X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) > > Date: Sat, 09 Nov 1996 17:25:32 -0500 > From: <@moa.net> > X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) > MIME-Version: 1.0 > To: "Richard C. Detweiler" > CC: @MOA.net > Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Bahai Community > References: <199611091538.IAA03876@primenet.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 > > Richard C. Detweiler wrote: > > > > Dear Frederick, > > > > Please reformat and delete personal reference to moderators and > > blanket attacks against groups and I would be happy to post > > your remarks, > > > > Dick Detweiler > > co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai > > rdetweil@primenet.com > > Dear Richard: > > Let me make sure I understand this: Moderators, like Hitler and other > fascists, are > above all criticism. The Kitab-i-Oppression says so. > > I spelled out "SOME" though I believe the context, as well as reason, > implies it. > > > > > > > > > > Date: Sat, 09 Nov 1996 07:58:27 -0500 > > > From: <@moa.net> > > > Organization: > > > X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) > > > MIME-Version: 1.0 > > > To: "Richard C. Detweiler" > > > Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Bahai Community > > > References: <199611071911.MAA13396@primenet.com> > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > > > > Richard C. Detweiler wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Friend, > > > > > > > > Thank you for your submission to soc.religion.bahai. > > > > > > > > I am returningthis to you for editting. [sic] I cannot allow the > blanket > > > > statements: > > > > > > > > > It seems to me the growth of the Faith has been perhaps hopelessly > stunted by > > > > > the Iranian Baha'i influence upon the understanding of its > teachings, > > > > > especially in this regard. > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > and modest possibilities of human material. One that that such > cultures as that > > > > > of Iran blithely ignore in their futile, primitive, brutal search > for perfection > > > > > and obedience. > > > > > > > > to be postedi to the newsgroup. As stated with no supporting > information, > > > > these statements are unfair stereotypes which could cause a lot of > heat with > > > > no new light. :-) Please either strike them or edit them to make > them more > > > > general or backed up by fact. > > > > > > > > Thank you for participating, > > > > > > > > Dick Detweiler > > > > rdetweil@primenet.com > > > > Co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai > > > > > > > > ================ Begin submitted post ========================= > > > > > > -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- > https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet > > ===================================================================== ====== > > WHAT TO DO IF YOU DID NOT REQUEST THIS POSTING: > ---------------------------------------------- > [This article has NOT yet been posted to Usenet. The reason we send this > email is to authenticate the author of articles we post.] > > If you did not request this article be posted to Usenet via the Deja News > service, that could mean someone using our service forged your address and > attempted to make this article appear as if you had posted it. The person > who did this used the IP address we log in the X-Originating-IP-Addr: > header field of the posting. This person may be able to be traced if you > contact the system administrator at their site. > > If you would like us to try to find out if someone forged your address, > please write to postnews@dejanews.com, include a statement like "I didn't > write this, please find out who did", and include this entire message. We > will try to help you as much as we can, but we are not a legal body and > other system administrators are not always cooperative, so we cannot > promise any results. We are sorry for any inconvenience. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Sun Feb 09 07:59:55 1997 BCC: @MOA.net Message-ID: <32FDCA4B.4B5A@moa.net> Date: Sun, 09 Feb 1997 07:59:55 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dopost@grunt.dejanews.com Subject: please post References: <199702091202.GAA00080@grunt.dejanews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 6298 dopost@grunt.dejanews.com wrote: > > [A reply is required to post your article. (If you did not request this, > please do not reply to this email, instead read the instructions at the > bottom of this note, and send any questions to postnews@dejanews.com).] > > You have requested that the following article be posted to Usenet via the > Posting Service at Deja News. Your article is currently sitting in our > spool waiting for you to authorize it by following the following > instructions: > > TO POST YOUR ARTICLE PLEASE READ AND FOLLOW THESE INSTRUCTIONS: > --------------------------------------------------------------- > - You must reply to this email, including the ENTIRE text of this email in > the reply. (It's okay if your email program inserts characters in the left > hand column, e.g. '>', or whatever). The reply MUST be sent to: > dopost@postnews.dejanews.com > - You must change the Subject: header of your reply to contain the > words: "PLEASE POST" (capitalization doesn't matter). (Note: this is the > Subject header of the message you send to us, not the subject header of the > article you wish to have posted). > > [The following string must not be changed/modified/wrapped/truncated.] > TRANSID:715f10e4dd2544c129fbdb0500b0887a6caec155cb59 > ===================================================================== ====== > From: @moa.net > Subject: Censored S.R.Bahai #3 > Newsgroups: news.groups > Message-Id: <855489703.56@dejanews.com> > Reply-To: @moa.net > Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service > To: @moa.net > X-Article-Creation-Date: Sun Feb 09 12:01:44 1997 GMT > X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.47 (ppp-pm01-dy-15.ouhub.moa.net) > X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) > > From: FG <@moa.net> > X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) > MIME-Version: 1.0 > To: "Richard C. Detweiler" > CC: @MOA.net > Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Bahai Community > References: <199611092303.QAA00271@primenet.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 > > Richard C. Detweiler wrote: > > > > Dear Frederick, > > > > I am sorry if you have a problem with moderated newsgroups. > > "Problem" is a derogatory characterization of my position. What I > disaprove of is CENSORED newsgroups. In my last posting, I apparently > hurt your feelings. > > But if > > you would like to take part in the discussion on this groups, you need > > to make sure your submittals meet the charter of the group. I am > > enclosing a copy of it for your reference. Please keep it in mind > > while reviewing the post in question and my comments. Again, when > > it is free of personal attacks [you?] > and negative comments about a whole > > group of people which could find them offensive, > > [I qualified the obvious, i.e., what ought to go without saying.] > > I would be happy > > to post it. My reformatting request had to do with getting rid of > > the '>'s that have build up over the course of our exchange. > > I'm resending it then. > > > > > Let me also reiterate that negative comments about the Faith are fine > > on the newsgroup as long as they meet the charter. If you would like > > to make a point that Iranian culture tends towards orthodoxy and that > > that may impact the way some individuals act, that's alright. [sic] > Just > > make sure the comments meet the charter. > > [And God has enlightened you to make the decision?] > > If you want to say Baha'is > > are a bunch of uptight, repressed, narrow-minded, religiously-conned, > > non-intellectual, misguided saps, just make sure you say it with a > > smile on your face, OK? > > This, Richard, is a generalization, one apparently you find permissible. > I, however, will grant you what you refuse to grant me: The statement of > an opinion without endless, absurd qualifications, IMHOs, etc. > > > > > And one more thing, fascists like me like honey a lot better than > > vinegar. If you take my meaning... > > > > You're abusing your power. All fascists do/did. Threats stultify the > exchange of ideas as much as censorship. > > > > Your jack-booted, brown-shirted moderator friend, > > You're trying to turn into a joke a very serious issue. > > > > > Dick Detweiler > > co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai > > rdetweil@primenet.com > > > > CHARTER FOR THE SOC.RELIGION.BAHAI NEWSGROUP > > ============================================== > > I don't disagree with any of this nor did my original post. > > -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- > https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet > > ===================================================================== ====== > > WHAT TO DO IF YOU DID NOT REQUEST THIS POSTING: > ---------------------------------------------- > [This article has NOT yet been posted to Usenet. The reason we send this > email is to authenticate the author of articles we post.] > > If you did not request this article be posted to Usenet via the Deja News > service, that could mean someone using our service forged your address and > attempted to make this article appear as if you had posted it. The person > who did this used the IP address we log in the X-Originating-IP-Addr: > header field of the posting. This person may be able to be traced if you > contact the system administrator at their site. > > If you would like us to try to find out if someone forged your address, > please write to postnews@dejanews.com, include a statement like "I didn't > write this, please find out who did", and include this entire message. We > will try to help you as much as we can, but we are not a legal body and > other system administrators are not always cooperative, so we cannot > promise any results. We are sorry for any inconvenience. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Sun Feb 09 08:00:23 1997 BCC: @MOA.net Message-ID: <32FDCA67.53AB@moa.net> Date: Sun, 09 Feb 1997 08:00:23 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dopost@grunt.dejanews.com Subject: please post References: <199702091206.GAA00180@grunt.dejanews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 6451 dopost@grunt.dejanews.com wrote: > > [A reply is required to post your article. (If you did not request this, > please do not reply to this email, instead read the instructions at the > bottom of this note, and send any questions to postnews@dejanews.com).] > > You have requested that the following article be posted to Usenet via the > Posting Service at Deja News. Your article is currently sitting in our > spool waiting for you to authorize it by following the following > instructions: > > TO POST YOUR ARTICLE PLEASE READ AND FOLLOW THESE INSTRUCTIONS: > --------------------------------------------------------------- > - You must reply to this email, including the ENTIRE text of this email in > the reply. (It's okay if your email program inserts characters in the left > hand column, e.g. '>', or whatever). The reply MUST be sent to: > dopost@postnews.dejanews.com > - You must change the Subject: header of your reply to contain the > words: "PLEASE POST" (capitalization doesn't matter). (Note: this is the > Subject header of the message you send to us, not the subject header of the > article you wish to have posted). > > [The following string must not be changed/modified/wrapped/truncated.] > TRANSID:210f20e4ddf5e421627cc0978060adab026815dcd91a > ===================================================================== ====== > From: @moa.net > Subject: Censored S.R.Bahai #4 > Newsgroups: news.groups > Message-Id: <855489963.165@dejanews.com> > Reply-To: @.moa.net > Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service > To: @moa.net > X-Article-Creation-Date: Sun Feb 09 12:06:04 1997 GMT > X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.47 (ppp-pm01-dy-15.ouhub.moa.net) > X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) > > From: FG <@moa.net> > X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) > MIME-Version: 1.0 > To: "Richard C. Detweiler" > CC: @MOA.net > Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Bahai Community > References: <199611101525.IAA23650@primenet.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > X-Mozilla-Status: 0011 > > Richard C. Detweiler wrote: > > > > Dear Frederick, > > > > The following comments - as personal attacks which have no place on > > this newsgroup - need to be removed before this will be submitted to > > the newsgroup: > > > > These do not constitute personal attacks but exposures of your undue > interference > in the content on my postings. I can understand you would prefer no one > else > should know about the issue. In my opinion, you're violating my > constitutional > freedom as an American citizen and my privilege as a Baha'i to express my > conscience candidly. In both of these passages, I am taking issue with > the > heavy-handed editorial practice that you seem to believe is justifiable. > I trust > the spark of truth enough to manifest itself to allow others to speak > their minds. > That, to me, is a Baha'i principle, sorely neglected in your handling of > my post. > I believe it is legitimate use of the newsgroup to discuss the moderators' > procedures for manipulating discussion. > > > > > especially in this regard. [At the insistence of the "moderator," the > best recent > > > evidence of this in my experience is the censoring of this posting > > > the first time I submitted it. As a pre-Reformation, or > non-Reformation culture, Iran > > > has the typical tendency to disallow the free exchange of opinion. > IMHO, this cultural > > > predilection is shared by SOME Iranian Baha'is. How could it not be?] > > > > and > > > > > [Once again forced by the CENSOR, I apparently need to point outthat > > > Iran (Baha'u'llah seems to have noticed this), as a culture, does not > > > value the free exchange of ideas.] > > > > Strike these and incorporate your parenthetical comments into the main > body > > of your post and I would be happy to post this to the newsgroup. > > > > Your request to strike these is so as not to draw attention to your flawed > handling of my posting. You're now merely trying to protect yourself from > the possible censure you have earned. I'm not out to get YOU. Don't get > paranoid. It's policy that permits ANY moderator to do what you have that > concerns me. I believe that policy, in context, is worthy of discussion, > indeed, essential. > > Your request to include my parenthetical comments constitutes another > request > to obscure further the real issue. Your attempt to protect yourself at > the > cost of silencing me. > > > > Dick Detweiler > > co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai > > rdetweil@primenet.com > > > > -- > Frederick Glaysher > Rochester, Michigan USA > > -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- > https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet > > ===================================================================== ====== > > WHAT TO DO IF YOU DID NOT REQUEST THIS POSTING: > ---------------------------------------------- > [This article has NOT yet been posted to Usenet. The reason we send this > email is to authenticate the author of articles we post.] > > If you did not request this article be posted to Usenet via the Deja News > service, that could mean someone using our service forged your address and > attempted to make this article appear as if you had posted it. The person > who did this used the IP address we log in the X-Originating-IP-Addr: > header field of the posting. This person may be able to be traced if you > contact the system administrator at their site. > > If you would like us to try to find out if someone forged your address, > please write to postnews@dejanews.com, include a statement like "I didn't > write this, please find out who did", and include this entire message. We > will try to help you as much as we can, but we are not a legal body and > other system administrators are not always cooperative, so we cannot > promise any results. We are sorry for any inconvenience. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Sun Feb 09 08:00:51 1997 BCC: @MOA.net Message-ID: <32FDCA83.40AA@moa.net> Date: Sun, 09 Feb 1997 08:00:51 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dopost@grunt.dejanews.com Subject: please post References: <199702091208.GAA00195@grunt.dejanews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 10279 dopost@grunt.dejanews.com wrote: > > [A reply is required to post your article. (If you did not request this, > please do not reply to this email, instead read the instructions at the > bottom of this note, and send any questions to postnews@dejanews.com).] > > You have requested that the following article be posted to Usenet via the > Posting Service at Deja News. Your article is currently sitting in our > spool waiting for you to authorize it by following the following > instructions: > > TO POST YOUR ARTICLE PLEASE READ AND FOLLOW THESE INSTRUCTIONS: > --------------------------------------------------------------- > - You must reply to this email, including the ENTIRE text of this email in > the reply. (It's okay if your email program inserts characters in the left > hand column, e.g. '>', or whatever). The reply MUST be sent to: > dopost@postnews.dejanews.com > - You must change the Subject: header of your reply to contain the > words: "PLEASE POST" (capitalization doesn't matter). (Note: this is the > Subject header of the message you send to us, not the subject header of the > article you wish to have posted). > > [The following string must not be changed/modified/wrapped/truncated.] > TRANSID:f15f3014cd351441b8ebebca0d1ebd64a579aea92874 > ===================================================================== ====== > From: @moa.net > Subject: Censored S.R.Bahai #5 > Newsgroups: news.groups > Message-Id: <855490114.187@dejanews.com> > Reply-To: @moa.net > Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service > To: @moa.net > X-Article-Creation-Date: Sun Feb 09 12:08:36 1997 GMT > X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.47 (ppp-pm01-dy-15.ouhub.moa.net) > X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) > > From - Thu Nov 14 06:37:42 1996 > Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.44) by atlas.moa.net > (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; > Wed, 13 Nov 1996 07:21:48 -0500 > Message-ID: <3289BEEC.27DF@moa.net> > Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 07:28:28 -0500 > From: FG <@moa.net> > X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) > MIME-Version: 1.0 > To: John Haukness > CC: @MOA.net > Subject: Re: Reviewing and Freedom of Speech and Thought > References: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 > > Another excellent example, apparently, of the abuse of your laughable > little > powers as a "moderator." You're interfering too much in the CONTENT of > the > message. > > > > John Haukness wrote: > > > > Dear Rick: After reviewing my message I find my tone and objectivity, is > > quite more temperate and reserved than many other posts. I find > > soc.religion's moderating policy to lean towards the left ideology. > > > > On Sun, 10 Nov 1996, Rick Boatright wrote: > > > > > Dear John, (and copied to Frederick) > > > > > > I have already asked Frederick to decrease the quote in the message > > > he sent to the newsgroup and to which you are replying. Could we, > > > perhaps let you two continue this in private email, or perhaps you > > > both would like to prepare new summeries of your positions for the > > > newsgroup? These messages with their extremely lenthy quoted > > > context violate the signal-to-noise ratio that the newsgroup > > > generally strives for. > > > > > > Rick Boatright > > > co-moderator > > > soc.religion.bahai > > > > > > > > > Date: Sun, 10 Nov 1996 11:18:02 -0600 (CST) > > > From: John Haukness > > > To: Frederick Glaysher <@moa.net> > > > Cc: soc-religion-bahai@uunet.uu.net > > > Subject: Re: Reviewing and Freedom of Speech and Thought > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, 10 Nov 1996, Frederick Glaysher wrote: > > > > > > > John Haukness wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Dear Friends: One can see me as anti-whatever they want. The > writings of > > > > > the Guardian make it clear to me that the american separation of > Church > > > > > and state is based on fear and will fade away. > > > > > > > > It's based on fear of the harsh realities of historical > experience--often > > > > bloody. The Guardian is more nuanced. > > > > > > And now we live in the Day that will not be followed by nite! Also, > we > > > as much historical episodes of bood baths as a result of secular > > > behaviors so do you want also to separate the secular from the > > > secular based on using the same logic? have> > As far as equating > > > > > Religion and state as one, being common anti intellectual > sentiment, I am > > > > > familiar with a long list of Baha'i's arguing this, many who have > > > > > published far more than I have- I wish people would start studying > Shoghi > > > > > Effendi with an open mind, and Abdul Baha's statements on > education. > > > > > > > > > > Of course my friends William and John Hatcher have put this issue > to > > > > > rest, safe ground, as with their publishing record, it is hard to > call > > > > > them anti-intellectual. From Shoghi Effendi: "As the Baha'i > > > > > Administrative Order rapidly expands throughout the world it > behooves > > > > > everyone associated with it to familiarize himself with its > principles > > > > > to understand its import and to put its precepts into practice. > The > > > > > divinely ordained institutions of the Local Spriityal Assembly > operates > > > > > at the first levels of human society and is the basic > administrative unit > > > > > of Bahaullah's World Order." So how are you going to separate > religion > > > > > from Bahaullah's World Order, an Order, Bahaullah has placed the > state in? > > > > > > > > > > > > > I made no such suggestion. > > > > The suggestion of your post was that Western secularism's > separation > > > of church and state was good, I assummed you were applying that it > still > > > is necessary. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well, John, you sure know how to ignore unpleasant facts and > dispense with > > > > 400 years of religious and social history triumphantly. > > > > As I have said, there is no conclusive evidence that the separation > of > > > church and state have provided the security you are attributing, for > > > the>past 400 years there are as many wars, forced famines and the > like > > > among church against church and state against state, Likewise being > > > ignored are all the successful ventures of cooperation the past 400 > > > years of religion and state; but regardless, that was then and now > > > is now. What stikes me, is that with keen insight, (I would shure > like > > > to hear from the readers who already have noticed the following) one > > > can begin to see the faint glimmers, that secular society and > religious > > > society are beginning to come upon, what the Hatcher's so elequantly > > > wrote about, that religion is inseparable from science, they are > married > > > interwoven in the foundation. (I am not saying there are not > appropriate > > > manmade separations, in man's need for efficiency and specialization > > > one needs to make artificial separations all the time, but if you > look > > > at Shoghi Effendi's writings on the Assemblies and Houses of > Justice, > > > and Abdul Baha's on schools, you can clearly see, that at the > foundation > > > level, religion and state are complimentary, and that the Local > House of > > > Justice, and Baha'i School are the foundation institutions of the > New > > > World Order state. > > > All the best! > > > > > > > > Your post seems to me to be ladened with the > anti-intellectualism that > > > > > > has become characteristic of the thinking of many Baha'is. Your > > > > > > conclusions don't appear to me to be supported by the Baha'i > Writings. > > > > > > > > > > > > Given modern religious history, since the 1600s really, Western > > > > > > secularism has quite rightly that the separation of religion > from > > > > > > the state is in everyone's best interest. > > > > > > > > > > > > The Baha'i Faith has yet sufficiently to prove otherwise. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Frederick Glaysher > Rochester, Michigan USA > > -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- > https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet > > ===================================================================== ====== > > WHAT TO DO IF YOU DID NOT REQUEST THIS POSTING: > ---------------------------------------------- > [This article has NOT yet been posted to Usenet. The reason we send this > email is to authenticate the author of articles we post.] > > If you did not request this article be posted to Usenet via the Deja News > service, that could mean someone using our service forged your address and > attempted to make this article appear as if you had posted it. The person > who did this used the IP address we log in the X-Originating-IP-Addr: > header field of the posting. This person may be able to be traced if you > contact the system administrator at their site. > > If you would like us to try to find out if someone forged your address, > please write to postnews@dejanews.com, include a statement like "I didn't > write this, please find out who did", and include this entire message. We > will try to help you as much as we can, but we are not a legal body and > other system administrators are not always cooperative, so we cannot > promise any results. We are sorry for any inconvenience. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Sun Feb 09 08:01:15 1997 BCC: @MOA.net Message-ID: <32FDCA9B.1ACD@moa.net> Date: Sun, 09 Feb 1997 08:01:15 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dopost@grunt.dejanews.com Subject: please post References: <199702091212.GAA00242@grunt.dejanews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 7027 dopost@grunt.dejanews.com wrote: > > [A reply is required to post your article. (If you did not request this, > please do not reply to this email, instead read the instructions at the > bottom of this note, and send any questions to postnews@dejanews.com).] > > You have requested that the following article be posted to Usenet via the > Posting Service at Deja News. Your article is currently sitting in our > spool waiting for you to authorize it by following the following > instructions: > > TO POST YOUR ARTICLE PLEASE READ AND FOLLOW THESE INSTRUCTIONS: > --------------------------------------------------------------- > - You must reply to this email, including the ENTIRE text of this email in > the reply. (It's okay if your email program inserts characters in the left > hand column, e.g. '>', or whatever). The reply MUST be sent to: > dopost@postnews.dejanews.com > - You must change the Subject: header of your reply to contain the > words: "PLEASE POST" (capitalization doesn't matter). (Note: this is the > Subject header of the message you send to us, not the subject header of the > article you wish to have posted). > > [The following string must not be changed/modified/wrapped/truncated.] > TRANSID:715f50c41dd5f4216c32035c26a9ee3e081fbbb2bc0a > ===================================================================== ====== > From: @moa.net > Subject: Censored S.R.Bahai #6 > Newsgroups: news.groups > Message-Id: <855490325.235@dejanews.com> > Reply-To: @moa.net > Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service > To: @moa.net > X-Article-Creation-Date: Sun Feb 09 12:12:05 1997 GMT > X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.47 (ppp-pm01-dy-15.ouhub.moa.net) > X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) > > From: "Rick Boatright" > Organization: Topeka Business Computers > To: Frederick Glaysher <@MOA.net> > Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 10:13:19 -0600 > Subject: Re: The Integrity of Bahai Marriage (revised) > Reply-to: boatright@cjnetworks.com > CC: srb-mods@bcca.org > Priority: normal > X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.31) > X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 > > Dear Frederick, > > A real, true _question_. Did you mean for this to go out to the > newsgroup? The humor is apparent, the advice is probebly reasonable, > but I am forced to wonder if you really ment the post to go to the > newsgroup. It seems too susceptable to te kind of mis-interpretation > that gets rwars started..... I therefore suspect that you ment > this for private email. > > Rick Boatright > co-moderator > soc.religion.bahai > > > To: soc-religion-bahai@uunet.uu.net > > From: FG <@MOA.net> > > Subject: Re: The Integrity of Bahai Marriage (revised) > > Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 09:45:16 -0500 > > Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A. > > To: karl1971@aol.com > > Cc: @MOA.net > > > karl1971@aol.com wrote: > > > [clip] > > > > > The believers of Baha'u'llah have a Faith of integrity. Unlike the > world > > > that's falling apart around us, the ones who who believe in > Baha'u'llah > > > make love, not war. > > > > > > One of the most important ways we do this is by fulfilling a > legitimate > > > quest to marry, always confident each and everyone of us has the > potential > > > to be a partner of a beautiful spiritual match made in heaven. > > > > > > In a Bahai Marriage: > > > > > > We seek nothing less than a partner with patience, who believes in > dreams, > > > justice, miracles, and aspirations who will spend every one of his or > her > > > most physically intimate moments with one and only one for the rest of > his > > > or her life. > > > > > > We seek nothing less than a world where every father and mother is > > > completely satisfied with who they have for a son-in-law or > > > daughter-in-law. > > > > > > We seek nothing less than a fellow beauty of the opposite sex who > respects > > > his or her body and doesn't smoke dope or drink booze or have some > > > loathsome addiction. > > > > > > We seek nothing less than someone who always had high standards of > > > justice, integrity, dignity, and morality, and has always been > sensitive > > > and intelligent, even having been raised among sick people and having > gone > > > through hell in a handbasket. > > > > > > We seek nothing less than beautiful love making experiences with > standards > > > of integrity that free us from the shackles of a promiscuous world. > > > > > > We seek nothing less than a world full of pairs of men and women of > good > > > taste who legitimately receive and satisfy each other's desires for > > > sensual affection. > > > > > > > > > > > > -- sincerely > > > > > > -- Karl > > > > > > Karl, man to man, you need to get married! Let me give you a little > unsolicited > > advice, if you don't mind. Don't choose one of these half-dead Baha'i > women, the > > self-righteous zealot type. Find a real woman with some blood flowing > through her > > veins.... > > > > -- > > Frederick Glaysher > > Rochester, Michigan USA > > > > -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- > https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet > > ===================================================================== ====== > > WHAT TO DO IF YOU DID NOT REQUEST THIS POSTING: > ---------------------------------------------- > [This article has NOT yet been posted to Usenet. The reason we send this > email is to authenticate the author of articles we post.] > > If you did not request this article be posted to Usenet via the Deja News > service, that could mean someone using our service forged your address and > attempted to make this article appear as if you had posted it. The person > who did this used the IP address we log in the X-Originating-IP-Addr: > header field of the posting. This person may be able to be traced if you > contact the system administrator at their site. > > If you would like us to try to find out if someone forged your address, > please write to postnews@dejanews.com, include a statement like "I didn't > write this, please find out who did", and include this entire message. We > will try to help you as much as we can, but we are not a legal body and > other system administrators are not always cooperative, so we cannot > promise any results. We are sorry for any inconvenience. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Sun Feb 09 08:01:38 1997 BCC: @MOA.net Message-ID: <32FDCAB2.5032@moa.net> Date: Sun, 09 Feb 1997 08:01:38 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dopost@grunt.dejanews.com Subject: please post References: <199702091214.GAA00284@grunt.dejanews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 4501 dopost@grunt.dejanews.com wrote: > > [A reply is required to post your article. (If you did not request this, > please do not reply to this email, instead read the instructions at the > bottom of this note, and send any questions to postnews@dejanews.com).] > > You have requested that the following article be posted to Usenet via the > Posting Service at Deja News. Your article is currently sitting in our > spool waiting for you to authorize it by following the following > instructions: > > TO POST YOUR ARTICLE PLEASE READ AND FOLLOW THESE INSTRUCTIONS: > --------------------------------------------------------------- > - You must reply to this email, including the ENTIRE text of this email in > the reply. (It's okay if your email program inserts characters in the left > hand column, e.g. '>', or whatever). The reply MUST be sent to: > dopost@postnews.dejanews.com > - You must change the Subject: header of your reply to contain the > words: "PLEASE POST" (capitalization doesn't matter). (Note: this is the > Subject header of the message you send to us, not the subject header of the > article you wish to have posted). > > [The following string must not be changed/modified/wrapped/truncated.] > TRANSID:615fa0f40dd53471d83854559ed0df615e0003ea1071 > ===================================================================== ====== > From: @moa.net > Subject: Censored S.R.Bahai #7 > Newsgroups: news.groups > Message-Id: <855490486.275@dejanews.com> > Reply-To: @moa.net > Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service > To: @moa.net > X-Article-Creation-Date: Sun Feb 09 12:14:46 1997 GMT > X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.47 (ppp-pm01-dy-15.ouhub.moa.net) > X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) > > Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 08:07:05 -0500 > From: FG <@moa.net> > X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) > MIME-Version: 1.0 > To: boatright@cjnetworks.com > CC: @MOA.net > Subject: Re: The Integrity of Bahai Marriage (revised) > References: <199611171601.KAA08931@topeka.cjnetworks.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 > > Rick Boatright wrote: > > > > Dear Frederick, > > > > A real, true _question_. Did you mean for this to go out to the > > newsgroup? The humor is apparent, the advice is probebly reasonable, > > but I am forced to wonder if you really ment the post to go to the > > newsgroup. It seems too susceptable to te kind of mis-interpretation > > that gets rwars started..... I therefore suspect that you ment > > this for private email. > > > > Rick Boatright > > co-moderator > > soc.religion.bahai > > > > You "suspect" incorrectly. I certainly intended for my message to be > posted. > I'd appreciate if you'd act as a moderator and not a censor. > > I find you're interfering in my communication offensive. Post it. > > -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- > https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet > > ===================================================================== ====== > > WHAT TO DO IF YOU DID NOT REQUEST THIS POSTING: > ---------------------------------------------- > [This article has NOT yet been posted to Usenet. The reason we send this > email is to authenticate the author of articles we post.] > > If you did not request this article be posted to Usenet via the Deja News > service, that could mean someone using our service forged your address and > attempted to make this article appear as if you had posted it. The person > who did this used the IP address we log in the X-Originating-IP-Addr: > header field of the posting. This person may be able to be traced if you > contact the system administrator at their site. > > If you would like us to try to find out if someone forged your address, > please write to postnews@dejanews.com, include a statement like "I didn't > write this, please find out who did", and include this entire message. We > will try to help you as much as we can, but we are not a legal body and > other system administrators are not always cooperative, so we cannot > promise any results. We are sorry for any inconvenience. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Sun Feb 09 08:02:01 1997 BCC: @MOA.net Message-ID: <32FDCAC8.2F03@moa.net> Date: Sun, 09 Feb 1997 08:02:01 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dopost@grunt.dejanews.com Subject: please post References: <199702091217.GAA00325@grunt.dejanews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 8390 dopost@grunt.dejanews.com wrote: > > [A reply is required to post your article. (If you did not request this, > please do not reply to this email, instead read the instructions at the > bottom of this note, and send any questions to postnews@dejanews.com).] > > You have requested that the following article be posted to Usenet via the > Posting Service at Deja News. Your article is currently sitting in our > spool waiting for you to authorize it by following the following > instructions: > > TO POST YOUR ARTICLE PLEASE READ AND FOLLOW THESE INSTRUCTIONS: > --------------------------------------------------------------- > - You must reply to this email, including the ENTIRE text of this email in > the reply. (It's okay if your email program inserts characters in the left > hand column, e.g. '>', or whatever). The reply MUST be sent to: > dopost@postnews.dejanews.com > - You must change the Subject: header of your reply to contain the > words: "PLEASE POST" (capitalization doesn't matter). (Note: this is the > Subject header of the message you send to us, not the subject header of the > article you wish to have posted). > > [The following string must not be changed/modified/wrapped/truncated.] > TRANSID:010f60143d955471639252233fd35543f573c2a360f6 > ===================================================================== ====== > From: @moa.net > Subject: Censored S.R.Bahai #8 > Newsgroups: news.groups > Message-Id: <855490652.317@dejanews.com> > Reply-To: @moa.net > Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service > To: @moa.net > X-Article-Creation-Date: Sun Feb 09 12:17:33 1997 GMT > X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.47 (ppp-pm01-dy-15.ouhub.moa.net) > X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) > > From - Tue Nov 19 04:56:35 1996 > Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.39) by atlas.moa.net > (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; > Mon, 18 Nov 1996 08:02:27 -0500 > Message-ID: <32905FF7.25F8@moa.net> > Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 08:09:11 -0500 > From: FG <@moa.net> > X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) > MIME-Version: 1.0 > To: "Richard C. Detweiler" > CC: @MOA.net > Subject: Re: The Integrity of Bahai Marriage (revised) > References: <199611171607.JAA22964@primenet.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 > > Richard C. Detweiler wrote: > > > > Not suitable for the group. Tell hi mto take it to e-mail. > > > > Dick D. > > > > > Dick, I mean this in all seriousness. You're a fascist pig. I'd say that > to > your face, fellow.... > > > > > > From news@news2.acs.oakland.edu Sun Nov 17 07:43:51 1996 > > > Received: from bcca.org (root@bounty.bcca.org [208.133.44.40]) by > primenet.com (8.8.2/8.8.2) with SMTP id HAA12476 for > ; Sun, 17 Nov 1 > > > Received: from relay6.UU.NET by bcca.org with smtp > > > (Smail3.1.29.1 #3) id m0vP8Rl-0008esC; Sun, 17 Nov 96 09:43 EST > > > Received: from news2.acs.oakland.edu by relay6.UU.NET with ESMTP > > > (peer crosschecked as: news2.acs.oakland.edu [141.210.10.152]) > > > id QQbqfq06145; Sun, 17 Nov 1996 09:43:44 -0500 (EST) > > > Received: (from news@localhost) by news2.acs.oakland.edu (8.7.6/8.7.4) > id JAA19072; Sun, 17 Nov 1996 09:43:51 -0500 > > > To: soc-religion-bahai@uunet.uu.net > > > Path: ppp-pm01-dy-29.ouhub.moa.net > > > From: FG <@MOA.net> > > > Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai > > > Subject: Re: The Integrity of Bahai Marriage (revised) > > > Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 09:45:16 -0500 > > > Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A. > > > Lines: 53 > > > Message-ID: <328F24FC.253@moa.net> > > > References: <"uiWV9.A.DUF.dSkjy"@bounty> > > > NNTP-Posting-Host: zeus.moa.net > > > Mime-Version: 1.0 > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) > > > To: karl1971@aol.com > > > CC: @MOA.net > > > > > > karl1971@aol.com wrote: > > > > [clip] > > > > > > > The believers of Baha'u'llah have a Faith of integrity. Unlike the > world > > > > that's falling apart around us, the ones who who believe in > Baha'u'llah > > > > make love, not war. > > > > > > > > One of the most important ways we do this is by fulfilling a > legitimate > > > > quest to marry, always confident each and everyone of us has the > potential > > > > to be a partner of a beautiful spiritual match made in heaven. > > > > > > > > In a Bahai Marriage: > > > > > > > > We seek nothing less than a partner with patience, who believes in > dreams, > > > > justice, miracles, and aspirations who will spend every one of his > or her > > > > most physically intimate moments with one and only one for the rest > of his > > > > or her life. > > > > > > > > We seek nothing less than a world where every father and mother is > > > > completely satisfied with who they have for a son-in-law or > > > > daughter-in-law. > > > > > > > > We seek nothing less than a fellow beauty of the opposite sex who > respects > > > > his or her body and doesn't smoke dope or drink booze or have some > > > > loathsome addiction. > > > > > > > > We seek nothing less than someone who always had high standards of > > > > justice, integrity, dignity, and morality, and has always been > sensitive > > > > and intelligent, even having been raised among sick people and > having gone > > > > through hell in a handbasket. > > > > > > > > We seek nothing less than beautiful love making experiences with > standards > > > > of integrity that free us from the shackles of a promiscuous world. > > > > > > > > We seek nothing less than a world full of pairs of men and women of > good > > > > taste who legitimately receive and satisfy each other's desires for > > > > sensual affection. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- sincerely > > > > > > > > -- Karl > > > > > > > > > Karl, man to man, you need to get married! Let me give you a little > unsolicited > > > advice, if you don't mind. Don't choose one of these half-dead Baha'i > women, the > > > self-righteous zealot type. Find a real woman with some blood flowing > through her > > > veins.... > > > > > > -- > > > Frederick Glaysher > > > Rochester, Michigan USA > > > > > -- > Frederick Glaysher > Rochester, Michigan USA > > -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- > https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet > > ===================================================================== ====== > > WHAT TO DO IF YOU DID NOT REQUEST THIS POSTING: > ---------------------------------------------- > [This article has NOT yet been posted to Usenet. The reason we send this > email is to authenticate the author of articles we post.] > > If you did not request this article be posted to Usenet via the Deja News > service, that could mean someone using our service forged your address and > attempted to make this article appear as if you had posted it. The person > who did this used the IP address we log in the X-Originating-IP-Addr: > header field of the posting. This person may be able to be traced if you > contact the system administrator at their site. > > If you would like us to try to find out if someone forged your address, > please write to postnews@dejanews.com, include a statement like "I didn't > write this, please find out who did", and include this entire message. We > will try to help you as much as we can, but we are not a legal body and > other system administrators are not always cooperative, so we cannot > promise any results. We are sorry for any inconvenience. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Sun Feb 09 08:02:29 1997 BCC: @MOA.net Message-ID: <32FDCAE5.763E@moa.net> Date: Sun, 09 Feb 1997 08:02:29 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dopost@grunt.dejanews.com Subject: please post References: <199702091220.GAA00374@grunt.dejanews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 5191 dopost@grunt.dejanews.com wrote: > > [A reply is required to post your article. (If you did not request this, > please do not reply to this email, instead read the instructions at the > bottom of this note, and send any questions to postnews@dejanews.com).] > > You have requested that the following article be posted to Usenet via the > Posting Service at Deja News. Your article is currently sitting in our > spool waiting for you to authorize it by following the following > instructions: > > TO POST YOUR ARTICLE PLEASE READ AND FOLLOW THESE INSTRUCTIONS: > --------------------------------------------------------------- > - You must reply to this email, including the ENTIRE text of this email in > the reply. (It's okay if your email program inserts characters in the left > hand column, e.g. '>', or whatever). The reply MUST be sent to: > dopost@postnews.dejanews.com > - You must change the Subject: header of your reply to contain the > words: "PLEASE POST" (capitalization doesn't matter). (Note: this is the > Subject header of the message you send to us, not the subject header of the > article you wish to have posted). > > [The following string must not be changed/modified/wrapped/truncated.] > TRANSID:e13f60947de57431536791e0710c3dea4867b0b9d20f > ===================================================================== ====== > From: @moa.net > Subject: Censored S.R.Bahai #9 > Newsgroups: news.groups > Message-Id: <855490817.361@dejanews.com> > Reply-To: @moa.net > Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service > To: @moa.net > X-Article-Creation-Date: Sun Feb 09 12:20:17 1997 GMT > X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.47 (ppp-pm01-dy-15.ouhub.moa.net) > X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) > > Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 06:35:36 -0500 > From: FG <@moa.net> > X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) > MIME-Version: 1.0 > To: boatright@cjnetworks.com > CC: @MOA.net > Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community > References: <199611181639.KAA16177@topeka.cjnetworks.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 > > Rick Boatright wrote: > > > > Dear Frederick, > > > > I was trying to say two unrelated things. > > > > First, that was a really nice message. Well thought, cohesive, good > > writing, I was trying to give you a compliment. > > > > I don't need nor want your unsolicted editorial comments BIG BROTHER. > I want the freedom to speak the conscience God has given me and the > freedom > to be responded to by OTHERS' unconstrained consciences. Stay out of the > way. > > > Second, I was expressing my gratitude that the conflict between you > > and the moderators a couple of weeks ago did not result in your > > leaving the newsgroup. I appriciate your continued participation. > > > > I feel nothing but contempt for the way you and Richard Detweiler have > handled my postings. Make no mistake in that regard. Neither one of > you, or anybody, has the prescience to exercise such power and control > over others' consciences. > > The abuse of your power is a proper subject for discussion on the > newsgroup. > > > > > Rick Boatright wrote: > > > > > > > > Really nice message. Good work. Thanks for hanging in there with > > > > us Frederick. I really appriciate it. > > > > > > > > Rick Boatright > > > > > > > > > > Frankly, I don't know what you mean here. > > > > > > > > -- > Frederick Glaysher > Rochester, Michigan USA > > -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- > https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet > > ===================================================================== ====== > > WHAT TO DO IF YOU DID NOT REQUEST THIS POSTING: > ---------------------------------------------- > [This article has NOT yet been posted to Usenet. The reason we send this > email is to authenticate the author of articles we post.] > > If you did not request this article be posted to Usenet via the Deja News > service, that could mean someone using our service forged your address and > attempted to make this article appear as if you had posted it. The person > who did this used the IP address we log in the X-Originating-IP-Addr: > header field of the posting. This person may be able to be traced if you > contact the system administrator at their site. > > If you would like us to try to find out if someone forged your address, > please write to postnews@dejanews.com, include a statement like "I didn't > write this, please find out who did", and include this entire message. We > will try to help you as much as we can, but we are not a legal body and > other system administrators are not always cooperative, so we cannot > promise any results. We are sorry for any inconvenience. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Sun Feb 09 08:02:55 1997 BCC: @MOA.net Message-ID: <32FDCAFF.1371@moa.net> Date: Sun, 09 Feb 1997 08:02:55 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dopost@grunt.dejanews.com Subject: please post References: <199702091224.GAA00397@grunt.dejanews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 5930 dopost@grunt.dejanews.com wrote: > > [A reply is required to post your article. (If you did not request this, > please do not reply to this email, instead read the instructions at the > bottom of this note, and send any questions to postnews@dejanews.com).] > > You have requested that the following article be posted to Usenet via the > Posting Service at Deja News. Your article is currently sitting in our > spool waiting for you to authorize it by following the following > instructions: > > TO POST YOUR ARTICLE PLEASE READ AND FOLLOW THESE INSTRUCTIONS: > --------------------------------------------------------------- > - You must reply to this email, including the ENTIRE text of this email in > the reply. (It's okay if your email program inserts characters in the left > hand column, e.g. '>', or whatever). The reply MUST be sent to: > dopost@postnews.dejanews.com > - You must change the Subject: header of your reply to contain the > words: "PLEASE POST" (capitalization doesn't matter). (Note: this is the > Subject header of the message you send to us, not the subject header of the > article you wish to have posted). > > [The following string must not be changed/modified/wrapped/truncated.] > TRANSID:61cf70d43d956451c01f78925ae15c46c1f01a1aa974 > ===================================================================== ====== > From: @moa.net > Subject: Censored S.R.Bahai #10 > Newsgroups: news.groups > Message-Id: <855491017.390@dejanews.com> > Reply-To: @moa.net > Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service > To: @moa.net > References: <854889179.13648@dejanews.com> <855231267.29104@dejanews.com> <32FA096E.7CED@east.sun.com> <855352728.4063@dejanews.com> <5dgpbo$ifk@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> > X-Article-Creation-Date: Sun Feb 09 12:23:38 1997 GMT > X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.47 (ppp-pm01-dy-15.ouhub.moa.net) > X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) > > Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 06:47:54 -0500 > From: FG <@moa.net> > X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) > MIME-Version: 1.0 > To: boatright@cjnetworks.com > CC: @MOA.net > Subject: Re: The Integrity of Bahai Marriage (revised) > References: <199611181657.KAA17797@topeka.cjnetworks.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 > > Rick Boatright wrote: > > > > And in your internal model, what is the difference between a > > moderator and a censor? > > See previous message to you. > > I asked a polite question. Did you intend > > to post this? > > I sent it to the newsgroup, didn't I? > > Lots of people post things they didn't intend to, and > > we catch a lot of those. > > In such cases, you'd be properly assisting discussion. > > They are generally greatful. I didn't > > complain that you characterize Baha'i women as bloodless. > > Why should you? What business is it of yours? I'm not writing to you, > nor do I want to. Yet here I am stuck in a non-productive task dealing > with you and Richard.... > > I probebly > > should. > > Why should you. Who the hell are you? > > I didn't complain that your comment was bigoted and > > offensive to the vast majority of sexually active and spirited Baha'i > > women, though I probebly should. > > A complaint you're entitled to make. In public. In response to me on the > Net. Not shunting anything YOU don't like off into obscurity. > > Let them tell you that themselves. > > > > I am saying the freedom for them to say so should be extended to them. > You are robbing them of that God-given freedom of expression of > conscience. > > > I asked a polite question. > > > > Lighten up. > > > > Don't tell me to lighten up when you and Richard are perverting and > screening the newsgroup self-righteous, prudishly suppressing opinions > you don't like. > > Again, who are you two to make such decisions? Do you really imagine God > has given you the ability to make such judgements? > > > Don't try to put a nazi mantle on my shoulders. > > > > It's already there, Rick. Wake up. > > > Rick Boatright > > co-moderator > > soc.religion.bahai > > > > > > > -- > Frederick Glaysher > Rochester, Michigan USA > > -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- > https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet > > ===================================================================== ====== > > WHAT TO DO IF YOU DID NOT REQUEST THIS POSTING: > ---------------------------------------------- > [This article has NOT yet been posted to Usenet. The reason we send this > email is to authenticate the author of articles we post.] > > If you did not request this article be posted to Usenet via the Deja News > service, that could mean someone using our service forged your address and > attempted to make this article appear as if you had posted it. The person > who did this used the IP address we log in the X-Originating-IP-Addr: > header field of the posting. This person may be able to be traced if you > contact the system administrator at their site. > > If you would like us to try to find out if someone forged your address, > please write to postnews@dejanews.com, include a statement like "I didn't > write this, please find out who did", and include this entire message. We > will try to help you as much as we can, but we are not a legal body and > other system administrators are not always cooperative, so we cannot > promise any results. We are sorry for any inconvenience. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Sun Feb 09 08:03:24 1997 BCC: @MOA.net Message-ID: <32FDCB1C.495D@moa.net> Date: Sun, 09 Feb 1997 08:03:24 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dopost@grunt.dejanews.com Subject: please post References: <199702091228.GAA00423@grunt.dejanews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 14066 dopost@grunt.dejanews.com wrote: > > [A reply is required to post your article. (If you did not request this, > please do not reply to this email, instead read the instructions at the > bottom of this note, and send any questions to postnews@dejanews.com).] > > You have requested that the following article be posted to Usenet via the > Posting Service at Deja News. Your article is currently sitting in our > spool waiting for you to authorize it by following the following > instructions: > > TO POST YOUR ARTICLE PLEASE READ AND FOLLOW THESE INSTRUCTIONS: > --------------------------------------------------------------- > - You must reply to this email, including the ENTIRE text of this email in > the reply. (It's okay if your email program inserts characters in the left > hand column, e.g. '>', or whatever). The reply MUST be sent to: > dopost@postnews.dejanews.com > - You must change the Subject: header of your reply to contain the > words: "PLEASE POST" (capitalization doesn't matter). (Note: this is the > Subject header of the message you send to us, not the subject header of the > article you wish to have posted). > > [The following string must not be changed/modified/wrapped/truncated.] > TRANSID:113f30947dc564716100fbd8bfb1ab999c046c1be0a0 > ===================================================================== ====== > From: @moa.net > Subject: Censored S.R.Bahai #11 > Newsgroups: news.groups > Message-Id: <855491273.416@dejanews.com> > Reply-To: @moa.net > Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service > To: @moa.net > X-Article-Creation-Date: Sun Feb 09 12:27:58 1997 GMT > X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.47 (ppp-pm01-dy-15.ouhub.moa.net) > X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) > > Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 09:26:05 -0500 > From: FG <@moa.net> > X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) > MIME-Version: 1.0 > To: Maya Kaathryn Bohnhoff > CC: @MOA.net > Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community > References: <"BYWGWC.A.PdB.pm0iy"@bounty> <328C806E.295C@moa.net> > <32908412.2C44@oro.net> <3291A53E.78A1@moa.net> <3291CC64.9F@oro.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 > > Maya Kaathryn Bohnhoff wrote: > > > > Frederick Glaysher wrote: > > > > > > It > > > > may be failing on my part if I don't try to correct > > > > their view of me, but it is a far grosser failing if > > > > I resent them for their views and let myself become > > > > embittered by it. I won't change anything by lashing > > > > out in anger, or by intentional alienation. Worst of all > > > > if I separate myself from the entire Baha'i community > > > > and Baha'u'allah because of these people, I'm only > > > > doing myself a disservice. If they're really my enemies, > > > > then my being a "weak sister" would be quite pleasing > > > > to them. > > > > > > > > > > You're a lovely soul. A more pious answer than I can muster. > > > > Piety has nothing to do with it. It's common sense. If we are > > to unify, we must be unified. Unity can never be served by > > anger or alienation. The only way to get rid of darkness is > > to throw light on it. More darkness only conduces to, well... > > more darkness. > > > > > To my mind, after twenty years in the Baha'i Faith, the "unity" is > a fraud, doesn't exist.... > > > > How will they deal with such things? What are the mechanisms? > > > For "Evil is the Nature of Mankind." > > > > The mechanisms are those clearly laid down by Baha'u'llah, > > Abdu'l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi. They involve a certain > > giving up of self, consultation, respect, courtesy and > > other attributes with which God has fully invested us. > > If these are the "mechanisms," they're insufficient. > > > I have served on assemblies for over 15 years. I've seen > > this at work. Sometimes we need reminders, sometimes we > > fail utterly, but the fact that we try is of paramount > > importance and has great power. > > > > ""Evil is the Nature of Mankind?" Not according to > > Baha'u'llah: > > > > "O Son of the Wondrous Vision! I have breathed upon thee > > a breath of My own Spirit that thou mayest be My lover. > > Why hast thou forsaken me and sought a beloved other > > than Me?" > > > > "O Son of Spirit! Noble have I created thee, yet thou > > hast abased thyself. Rise then, unto that for which > > thou wast created." > > > > These passages and others make it clear that it is > > our nature to be noble. > > Antinomy is presupposed. There is tragedy in Baha'u'llah's > writings, tragedy minds like yours (I mean no insult), typically > fail to understand. > > The other part is nurture. > > We learn deceit and we teach it to others. We learn > > hatred and we pass it along like a disease. > > > > > > Buddha said: Hatred does not cease by hatred, hatred ceases > > > > by love. > > > > > > > > > > Tell that to the Tibetans who have had their whole civilization > > > wiped out.... > > > > They understand this better than anyone. What, after all, > > nearly wiped out their civilization? Hatred and fear of what > > was different and not controllable by the powers that would > > be. > > > > Even the Dali Lama has had second thoughts.... Much too late. > > > > They must. Let's be practical. What though when Assemblies self- > > > righteously abuse their authority and persecute individuals? That > > > can happen too, and then what? > > > > If a person feels he is being persecuted he has recourse to > > the Auxiliary Board, another spiritual assembly, the National > > Spiritual Assembly or even the House of Justice. Any and all > > of these avenues of redress is open to the individual. Of > > course, there is always the possibility that the individual's > > perception that he's being "persecuted" is false. It's never > > pleasant to be wrong about something, less pleasant to have > > someone call your attention to it and ask that your behavior > > change. I know this from personal experience. > > > > > > > > As > > > > an individual, I still had to treat the subject of consultation > > > > with compassion. > > > > > > > > > > A very dehumanizing phrase, Maya. It seems to me. This human > tendency > > > worries me. Don't tell me to pray about it. > > > > I'm sorry. I certainly didn't intend it to be. I intended it to be > > neutral. Look, I have served on assemblies long enough to have > > seen a gamut of personal problems and situations arise. I have > > NEVER known an assembly to EVER lose sight of the fact that > > what they were dealing with wasn't a problem, but a person. > > Usually, the person is much loved, and their situation causes > > the members of the institution very personal grief. > > > > The sad thing is that the soul involved doesn't always realize > > this. And regardless of the actual feelings of the assembly > > members, treats them as if they were indeed, a persecuting > > force. One young man an assembly I sat on counseled had a > > drug problem for which he refused to get help. He viewed > > the mere fact that the assembly called him for consultation > > as an act of personal persecution. He thought the people on > > the assembly were "out to get him," when in fact, every one > > of them loved him, valued him and wanted him to be well both > > spiritually and physically. After one meeting in which we had > > attempted to talk to him, several members of the assembly burst > > into tears. > > > > Anything in the name of love? Nine amateur spiritual psychologists > are just going to talk someone straight? I've seen it attempted > too with similar results.... > > > > > > > Reasonable. Many in the Faith thinks this way. I do too in some > regards. > > > But then we're no longer in a world of ideal beauty.... > > > > But Baha'u'llah is clear that His teachings and the power > > released by His revelation have the capacity to light that > > spark He says lies latent within us. I've seen what that > > spark can accomplish in the lives of ordinary human beings. > > We have within our grasp the means of bringing that world > > of ideal beauty out of the realm of spirit and onto this > > earth. The scriptures of God's faith in every age proclaim > > this unequivocally. > > > > And have always failed.... By there own self-definitions, failed. > Why? What is it about human nature? Do you actually believe the > Baha'i Faith will do any better? I don't. I don't believe the > deepest suggestions of the writings suggest any such thing. > > > > My post, I believe, was about the individual capacity to sully > anything > > > and everything in "this world of gloom." > > > > May I call you Eeyore? :) (Sorry, couldn't help myself.) > > > > I tried to post a reply to on the newsgroup. I used the same phrase > in the copy I mailed you: "utterly naive" Richard Detweiler has > banned my post because it might hurt your feelings--not my intention. > A good example of the self-righteous Fascism build the new world order > inspires in Baha'i fanatics.... Calling me Eeyore doesn't hurt my > feelings. > I have, unlike fanatics, a sense of humor and relish the variety of human > temperaments God has so blessed the world with. Yours is not mine, that > is all. > > Do the Faith a favor, write the CENSOR and tell him to respect the human > conscience of others, not only mine. > > > In the Kitab-i-Iqan, Baha'u'llah says that when we truly > > accept Him, recognize Him, the Holy Spirit will confer > > upon us "a new ear, a new eye, a new heart and a new mind." > > We are capable of being transformed, and the Word of God > > (and only the Word of God ) is capable of causing that > > transformation. > > > > Beautiful metaphors. Understand? > > > I am deeply sorry that your experience within the > > Baha'i community has been so negative. > > The lack of complexity is what concerns me, and the lack of > acknowledgement of proportion. > > > But every > > negative experience in life offers us more than one > > way to react. I've often marveled how adversity can > > make one person opt for a life of misery and > > recrimination (it was mother's fault, it was God's > > fault, it was...) and another come to the decision that > > they will simply NOT let that adversity steal their > > joy, or their life. > > > > I know there are Baha'i communities that are ruled > > by a small clique of set in stone believers, or > > groups where a number of petty-minded souls seem > > to have things in control. Indeed, I have a friend > > who lived in such a community until a new Baha'i > > family moved in and changed the dynamics of the > > situation. My friend chose to deal with the problem > > by withdrawing. The new friends set about and > > accomplished the renewal of that community by > > opening their house to firesides, getting the > > assembly to meet, teaching the faith, and most > > important, showering everyone in their community, > > including those set in stone souls with love. They > > gave the community the medicine Baha'u'llah > > prescribed and saved the patient. > > > > The usual answer. Lacking complexity. > > > You may argue against the idea that hatred ceases > > only through love, but this is a prescription from > > a Physician who knows far more about the ills of > > human kind than either you or I. > > > > It has never truly healed the patient. Baha'u'llah, unlike > Baha'is, understand the condition is terminal.... > > > Mir, Maya > > +----------------------------------------+ > > | Maya Kaathryn Bohnhoff syntax@oro.net | > > +----------------------------------------+ > > | "The beginning of all things is the | > > | knowledge of God." - Baha'u'llah | > > +----------------------------------------+ > > -- > Frederick Glaysher > Rochester, Michigan USA > > -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- > https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet > > ===================================================================== ====== > > WHAT TO DO IF YOU DID NOT REQUEST THIS POSTING: > ---------------------------------------------- > [This article has NOT yet been posted to Usenet. The reason we send this > email is to authenticate the author of articles we post.] > > If you did not request this article be posted to Usenet via the Deja News > service, that could mean someone using our service forged your address and > attempted to make this article appear as if you had posted it. The person > who did this used the IP address we log in the X-Originating-IP-Addr: > header field of the posting. This person may be able to be traced if you > contact the system administrator at their site. > > If you would like us to try to find out if someone forged your address, > please write to postnews@dejanews.com, include a statement like "I didn't > write this, please find out who did", and include this entire message. We > will try to help you as much as we can, but we are not a legal body and > other system administrators are not always cooperative, so we cannot > promise any results. We are sorry for any inconvenience. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Sun Feb 09 08:03:53 1997 BCC: @MOA.net Message-ID: <32FDCB38.C7C@moa.net> Date: Sun, 09 Feb 1997 08:03:52 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dopost@grunt.dejanews.com Subject: please post References: <199702091232.GAA00499@grunt.dejanews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 10069 dopost@grunt.dejanews.com wrote: > > [A reply is required to post your article. (If you did not request this, > please do not reply to this email, instead read the instructions at the > bottom of this note, and send any questions to postnews@dejanews.com).] > > You have requested that the following article be posted to Usenet via the > Posting Service at Deja News. Your article is currently sitting in our > spool waiting for you to authorize it by following the following > instructions: > > TO POST YOUR ARTICLE PLEASE READ AND FOLLOW THESE INSTRUCTIONS: > --------------------------------------------------------------- > - You must reply to this email, including the ENTIRE text of this email in > the reply. (It's okay if your email program inserts characters in the left > hand column, e.g. '>', or whatever). The reply MUST be sent to: > dopost@postnews.dejanews.com > - You must change the Subject: header of your reply to contain the > words: "PLEASE POST" (capitalization doesn't matter). (Note: this is the > Subject header of the message you send to us, not the subject header of the > article you wish to have posted). > > [The following string must not be changed/modified/wrapped/truncated.] > TRANSID:612f60f4dda5f411f18edac9c5f9c3e10bb170305b8d > ===================================================================== ====== > From: @moa.net > Subject: Censored S.R.Bahai #13 > Newsgroups: news.groups > Message-Id: <855491558.492@dejanews.com> > Reply-To: @MOA.NET > Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service > To: @moa.net > X-Article-Creation-Date: Sun Feb 09 12:32:40 1997 GMT > X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.47 (ppp-pm01-dy-15.ouhub.moa.net) > X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) > > From: "Richard C. Detweiler" > Message-Id: <199611191443.HAA24131@primenet.com> > Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community > To: @moa.net (Frederick Glaysher) > Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 07:43:07 -0700 (MST) > Cc: srb-mods@bcca.org > In-Reply-To: <3291959D.7D9C@moa.net> from "Frederick Glaysher" at Nov 19, > 96 06:10:21 am > X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] > Content-Type: text > X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 > > > > Dear Mr. Glaysher, > > Thank you for your submission to soc.religion.bahai. > > I ask that you strike the comment "utterly naive" as an attack > on the previous poster. If you would like to say you disagree, > that would be acceptable. > > Also, your sarcastic comments in the following paragraph: > > > Excellent point. A profound moral problem arises here. How can the > individual > > maintain the moral strength of character to resist abuse and > manipulation when > > power can be wielded in such a way as to undermine that very ability? > To > > discredit it. Ban it. Brand it as outlaw, heretic, disruptive, > anti-social, > > working against the realization, e.g., of the communist Kingdom of > Freedom. > > If you would turn this into a meaningful criticism based on actual events > than the readership could evaluate and enter into a dialog with you on > these > events. > > Again, let me make it clear that if you have a grievance with the Faith, > you are free to air it here, but it must be the facts and your reasons for > the grievance presented and not belittling insults, broad stereotypes, and > blatant sarcasm. > > Thank you for participating, > > Dick Detweiler > rdetweil@primenet.com > Co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai > > ================ Begin submitted post ========================= > > > To: soc-religion-bahai@uunet.uu.net > > Path: ppp-pm01-dy-26.ouhub.moa.net > > From: FG <@moa.net> > > Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai > > Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community > > Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 06:10:21 -0500 > > Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A. > > Lines: 78 > > Message-ID: <3291959D.7D9C@moa.net> > > References: <"-ER8GC.A.gTH.UGkiy"@bounty> > <56qoi9$rmd@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> > > NNTP-Posting-Host: zeus.moa.net > > Mime-Version: 1.0 > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) > > To: Anne Furlong > > CC: @moa.net > > > > Anne Furlong wrote: > > > > > > The reference to power probably helps poinpoint the difficulty some of > > > the friends have here. The point is that in this Faith, for the first > > > time in religious history, power and authority have been intentionally > > > and effectively severed. The authority to make decisions, to > legislate, > > > to guide, rests with the elected institutions of the Faith. However, > > > these institutions - and the individuals who make them up - have no > power > > > whatsoever. > > > > "No power whatsoever": Utterly naive.... > > > > [clip] > > > > > > > > Why do people become disillusioned with the community? with > individuals? > > > Well, we all know people who, by force of personality, or because of > > > defects of character and personality, receive, demand, or desire > > > acquiescence from other individuals. But note: if such people do in > fact > > > poison a community, who ultimately must take the responsibility? > Power > > > is not theirs to command: it is ceded to them by those who have not > the > > > wisdom or the courage to recognise that what is being asked is both > > > contrary to the Faith, and ultimately impossible to give. > > > > > > > Excellent point. A profound moral problem arises here. How can the > individual > > maintain the moral strength of character to resist abuse and > manipulation when > > power can be wielded in such a way as to undermine that very ability? > To > > discredit it. Ban it. Brand it as outlaw, heretic, disruptive, > anti-social, > > working against the realization, e.g., of the communist Kingdom of > Freedom. > > > > > Yes, impossible: for since in the Administrative order which is > > > Baha'u'llah's gift to the world, power and authority are divided, > > > > In theory, yes; in practice, I'm not convinced. > > > > then the > > > efforts of a few misguided individuals to bring power and authority > > > together in their own persons; or to build up factions; or to do > anything, > > > in fact, which is contravenes the spirit and the reality of the > Covenant, > > > are doomed to failure. 'Abdu'l-Baha said that the ocean of the > Covenant > > > will surge and surge until it casts the bodies of the (spiritually) > dead > > > onto the shore. We cannot ultimately harm the progress of the Cause, > but > > > can cut ourselves off from the abundant share of the blessings which > > > obedience to the Covenant brings to us. > > > > > > If we are disillusioned with the community we live in, then our > response > > > will either add to the problem or be the start of its eradication. > The > > > whole purpose of consultation is to allow the individual to exercise > > > responsibility - his power - within the "unit of civilization". > > > > What I am saying is that there are situations when it is not allowed. > You're > > too quick to leap over that fact for me. > > > > We are > > > all going to be responsible for our actions to Baha'u'llah when we > pass > > > from this earth; are we going to plead the immaturity of others as the > > > reason for our failure to love? > > > > > > > Your dragging "love" into this confuses the issue. > > > > > Baha'u'llah did more than despise tyranny; in his Administrative > Order, > > > He, as the Divine Physician, prescribed the effective and permanent > remedy. > > > > > > > The point from the original post was in regard to the abuse of the > remedy, > > turning it into a cheap medicine show elixir. What then of the > community > > or individuals under that Tyranny? > > > > > All the best, > > > > > > Anne Furlong > > > St John's Newfoundland Canada > > > > -- > > Frederick Glaysher > > Rochester, Michigan USA > > > > > ================ End submitted post =========================== > > -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- > https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet > > ===================================================================== ====== > > WHAT TO DO IF YOU DID NOT REQUEST THIS POSTING: > ---------------------------------------------- > [This article has NOT yet been posted to Usenet. The reason we send this > email is to authenticate the author of articles we post.] > > If you did not request this article be posted to Usenet via the Deja News > service, that could mean someone using our service forged your address and > attempted to make this article appear as if you had posted it. The person > who did this used the IP address we log in the X-Originating-IP-Addr: > header field of the posting. This person may be able to be traced if you > contact the system administrator at their site. > > If you would like us to try to find out if someone forged your address, > please write to postnews@dejanews.com, include a statement like "I didn't > write this, please find out who did", and include this entire message. We > will try to help you as much as we can, but we are not a legal body and > other system administrators are not always cooperative, so we cannot > promise any results. We are sorry for any inconvenience. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Sun Feb 09 08:04:27 1997 BCC: @MOA.net Message-ID: <32FDCB5B.2C28@moa.net> Date: Sun, 09 Feb 1997 08:04:27 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dopost@grunt.dejanews.com Subject: please post References: <199702091235.GAA00526@grunt.dejanews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 10368 dopost@grunt.dejanews.com wrote: > > [A reply is required to post your article. (If you did not request this, > please do not reply to this email, instead read the instructions at the > bottom of this note, and send any questions to postnews@dejanews.com).] > > You have requested that the following article be posted to Usenet via the > Posting Service at Deja News. Your article is currently sitting in our > spool waiting for you to authorize it by following the following > instructions: > > TO POST YOUR ARTICLE PLEASE READ AND FOLLOW THESE INSTRUCTIONS: > --------------------------------------------------------------- > - You must reply to this email, including the ENTIRE text of this email in > the reply. (It's okay if your email program inserts characters in the left > hand column, e.g. '>', or whatever). The reply MUST be sent to: > dopost@postnews.dejanews.com > - You must change the Subject: header of your reply to contain the > words: "PLEASE POST" (capitalization doesn't matter). (Note: this is the > Subject header of the message you send to us, not the subject header of the > article you wish to have posted). > > [The following string must not be changed/modified/wrapped/truncated.] > TRANSID:415f40146d9504315e14b8870c2d5940810c3dfe08d4 > ===================================================================== ====== > From: @MOA.NET > Subject: Censored S.R.Bahai #14 > Newsgroups: news.groups > Message-Id: <855491710.519@dejanews.com> > Reply-To: @moa.net > Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service > To: @moa.net > X-Article-Creation-Date: Sun Feb 09 12:35:13 1997 GMT > X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.47 (ppp-pm01-dy-15.ouhub.moa.net) > X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) > > Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 10:27:04 -0500 > From: FG <@moa.net> > X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) > MIME-Version: 1.0 > To: "Richard C. Detweiler" > CC: @MOA.net > Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community > References: <199611191434.HAA23362@primenet.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 > > Richard C. Detweiler wrote: > > > > Dear Mr. Glaysher, > > > > Thank you for your submission to soc.religion.bahai. > > > > As your post contains sarcastic comments and argues with the > > moderation of the group in a demeaning and disrespectful manner, > > it will not be posted. These issues are also peripheral to > > the purpose of the newsgroup in any case. > > > > False. They go to the heart of the matter, i.e., how it functions. > > > If you are seeking full vent to your frustrations, I suggest > > news.admin or talk.religion.misc on the Internet as the first > > is appropriate and the other is unmoderated. > > "Vent your frustrations" is in the same category as my "Utterly naive." > I don't seek to deprive you of your conscience that apparently believes > that. You may say what you wish. It won't hurt my little feelings. > > I believe you're again manipulating discussion in a dictatorial, > oppressive > manner unjustified by anything in the Baha'i Writings which you apparently > cloak your shameless deeds in. > > This newsgroup, > > however, is for discussion of the Baha'i Faith in an atmosphere > > of respect and free from topical tangents of all kinds. > > > > The abuse of the conscience of a member of the Baha'i Faith and, > apparently > regular practice of distortion and censorship is not a suitable topic? > I can understand why you wouldn't wish to have anyone else know.... > > > Thank you for participating, > > > > I'm not participating at all. You are self-righteous depriving me of > that. > You are also depriving others of hearing or disagreeing with my opinions. > > > Dick Detweiler > > rdetweil@primenet.com > > Co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai > > > > ================ Begin submitted post ========================= > > > > > To: soc-religion-bahai@uunet.uu.net > > > Path: ppp-pm01-dy-26.ouhub.moa.net > > > From: FG <@MOA.net> > > > Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai > > > Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community > > > Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 05:44:11 -0500 > > > Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A. > > > Lines: 68 > > > Message-ID: <32918F7B.76FA@moa.net> > > > References: <"-ER8GC.A.gTH.UGkiy"@bounty> > <56qogd$rii@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> > > > NNTP-Posting-Host: zeus.moa.net > > > Mime-Version: 1.0 > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) > > > To: Sian Smith > > > CC: @MOA.net > > > > > > Sian Smith wrote: > > > > > > > > In article <"-ER8GC.A.gTH.UGkiy"@bounty>, Frederick Glaysher > <@moa.net> says: > > > > > > > > > > > > > [snip extracts from previous messages about being disillusioned] > > > > > > > > >> : >As you know, the Bahai Faith doesn't have priests, preachers, > or any > > > > >> : >individuals who have the responsibility of telling people what > to do, unlike > > > > >> : >churches. However, from my experience I've discovered > associating with > > > > >> : >"Bahais" and not expecting them to play the roles of > surrogate priests and > > > > >> : > surrogate parish to be incredibly wishful and foolish > thinking. > > > > >> > > > > >> : Since the Baha'i Community does not have a paid clergy, every > Baha'is is > > > > >> : to perform the service that the clergy of previous religions > performed. We > > > > >> : are each to study the Holy Writings, and to teach and deepen > others in the > > > > >> : Faith. It may be hard for one of a traditional religious > background that > > > > >> : does not encourage study to take responsibility for one's own > spiritual > > > > >> : growth, but we all have to struggle to change our shortcomings. > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >Miguel, you utterly miss Karl's well-taken point here again. It's > the abuse of > > > > >the responsibility that is the crux of his observation. Power > corrupts. > > > > >And it can corrupt Baha'is as well as Christians, Muslims, Nazis, > etc. > > > > > > > > Excuse my ignorance, but WHO in the Baha'i Faith has any "power"? > I've > > > > never met anyone in the Faith who has power of any kind (i.e: power > in > > > > the sense that they can exert some kind of binding influence over > > > > another person). > > > > > > I'll give you an example: The "moderators" of this newsgroup. > They've > > > censored a number of messages I've tried to post during the last few > weeks. > > > They have the "power" to determine what you and everyone else OUT > THERE > > > reads.... If that's not control and power to SHAPE thought and > opinion what > > > is it? > > > > > > Maybe the previous writer was referring to some other > > > > kind of power - in which case I would be grateful to receive a > > > > "definition", so to speak, of this power and how it compares to the > > > > "definition" I had in mind which, in my own humble opinion, is the > sort > > > > of power which is contained in the assertion "power corrupts". > > > > > > > > > > The "moderators" power is corrupting and inhibiting the exchange of > ideas > > > on this newsgroup. When I attempted to bring this to the attention of > > > contributors by posting a message to this effect earlier, I was told > > > > > > THOU SHALT NOT QUESTION THE AUTHORITY AND POWER OF THE "MODERATORS." > > > Kitab-i-Oppression, page 999. > > > > > > > The only person who has any kind of power over my spiritual > development > > > > is ME. I cannot abdicate that responsibility to someone else. > > > > > > > > > > There's a sense in which you're right. But secular and religious > history > > > is wracked with the abuse of POWER and the devastating results of > it.... > > > It always began in little ways.... A little at a time.... People > shrugged.... > > > Let's not make ways.... Let's build UNITY! > > > > > > > Loving greetings > > > > > > > > Sian Smith > > > > Wellington > > > > New Zealand > > > > > > -- > > > Frederick Glaysher > > > Rochester, Michigan USA > > > > > = End submitted post =========================== > > YOU DEAR CENSORS have shown your true colors once again. > > -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- > https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet > > ===================================================================== ====== > > WHAT TO DO IF YOU DID NOT REQUEST THIS POSTING: > ---------------------------------------------- > [This article has NOT yet been posted to Usenet. The reason we send this > email is to authenticate the author of articles we post.] > > If you did not request this article be posted to Usenet via the Deja News > service, that could mean someone using our service forged your address and > attempted to make this article appear as if you had posted it. The person > who did this used the IP address we log in the X-Originating-IP-Addr: > header field of the posting. This person may be able to be traced if you > contact the system administrator at their site. > > If you would like us to try to find out if someone forged your address, > please write to postnews@dejanews.com, include a statement like "I didn't > write this, please find out who did", and include this entire message. We > will try to help you as much as we can, but we are not a legal body and > other system administrators are not always cooperative, so we cannot > promise any results. We are sorry for any inconvenience. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Sun Feb 09 08:04:53 1997 BCC: @MOA.net Message-ID: <32FDCB75.AF9@moa.net> Date: Sun, 09 Feb 1997 08:04:53 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dopost@grunt.dejanews.com Subject: please post References: <199702091238.GAA00545@grunt.dejanews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 7637 dopost@grunt.dejanews.com wrote: > > [A reply is required to post your article. (If you did not request this, > please do not reply to this email, instead read the instructions at the > bottom of this note, and send any questions to postnews@dejanews.com).] > > You have requested that the following article be posted to Usenet via the > Posting Service at Deja News. Your article is currently sitting in our > spool waiting for you to authorize it by following the following > instructions: > > TO POST YOUR ARTICLE PLEASE READ AND FOLLOW THESE INSTRUCTIONS: > --------------------------------------------------------------- > - You must reply to this email, including the ENTIRE text of this email in > the reply. (It's okay if your email program inserts characters in the left > hand column, e.g. '>', or whatever). The reply MUST be sent to: > dopost@postnews.dejanews.com > - You must change the Subject: header of your reply to contain the > words: "PLEASE POST" (capitalization doesn't matter). (Note: this is the > Subject header of the message you send to us, not the subject header of the > article you wish to have posted). > > [The following string must not be changed/modified/wrapped/truncated.] > TRANSID:314f10c43db57461f70baa30942d6cc5773969b106e2 > ===================================================================== ====== > From: @moa.net > Subject: Censored S.R.Bahai #15 > Newsgroups: news.groups > Message-Id: <855491889.537@dejanews.com> > Reply-To: @moa.net > Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service > To: @moa.net > X-Article-Creation-Date: Sun Feb 09 12:38:09 1997 GMT > X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.47 (ppp-pm01-dy-15.ouhub.moa.net) > X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) > > From - Wed Nov 20 13:57:47 1996 > Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.66) by atlas.moa.net > (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; > Wed, 20 Nov 1996 10:25:30 -0500 > Message-ID: <3293247F.2340@moa.net> > Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 10:32:15 -0500 > From: FG <@moa.net> > X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) > MIME-Version: 1.0 > To: "Richard C. Detweiler" > CC: @MOA.net > Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community > References: <199611191443.HAA24131@primenet.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 > > Further response-- Your characterization of my comments as sarcastic > is ludicrous. One may not be sarcastic in the Baha'i Faith? And you > are too determine is toooooo SARCASTIC? Oh God, what a farce! > > Since you apparently don't understand the passage in question, I'm > supposed to water in down for YOUR ignorance! I'm talking about the > totalitarianism of the SOVIET UNION which you dangerously come close > to. > > Again, I request that you post my message or pass it on to someone > else who is not as fanatical as you. > > > Richard C. Detweiler wrote: > > > > Dear Mr. Glaysher, > > > > Thank you for your submission to soc.religion.bahai. > > > > I ask that you strike the comment "utterly naive" as an attack > > on the previous poster. If you would like to say you disagree, > > that would be acceptable. > > > > Also, your sarcastic comments in the following paragraph: > > > > > Excellent point. A profound moral problem arises here. How can the > individual > > > maintain the moral strength of character to resist abuse and > manipulation when > > > power can be wielded in such a way as to undermine that very ability? > To > > > discredit it. Ban it. Brand it as outlaw, heretic, disruptive, > anti-social, > > > working against the realization, e.g., of the communist Kingdom of > Freedom. > > > > If you would turn this into a meaningful criticism based on actual > events > > than the readership could evaluate and enter into a dialog with you on > these > > events. > > > > Again, let me make it clear that if you have a grievance with the Faith, > > you are free to air it here, but it must be the facts and your reasons > for > > the grievance presented and not belittling insults, broad stereotypes, > and > > blatant sarcasm. > > > > Thank you for participating, > > > > Dick Detweiler > > rdetweil@primenet.com > > Co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai > > > > ================ Begin submitted post ========================= > > > > > To: soc-religion-bahai@uunet.uu.net > > > Path: ppp-pm01-dy-26.ouhub.moa.net > > > From: FG <@moa.net> > > > Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai > > > Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community > > > Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 06:10:21 -0500 > > > Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A. > > > Lines: 78 > > > Message-ID: <3291959D.7D9C@moa.net> > > > References: <"-ER8GC.A.gTH.UGkiy"@bounty> > <56qoi9$rmd@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> > > > NNTP-Posting-Host: zeus.moa.net > > > Mime-Version: 1.0 > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) > > > To: Anne Furlong > > > CC: @moa.net > > > > > > Anne Furlong wrote: > > > > > > > > The reference to power probably helps poinpoint the difficulty some > of > > > > the friends have here. The point is that in this Faith, for the > first > > > > time in religious history, power and authority have been > intentionally > > > > and effectively severed. The authority to make decisions, to > legislate, > > > > to guide, rests with the elected institutions of the Faith. > However, > > > > these institutions - and the individuals who make them up - have no > power > > > > whatsoever. > > > > > > "No power whatsoever": Utterly naive.... > > > > > > [clip] > > -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- > https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet > > ===================================================================== ====== > > WHAT TO DO IF YOU DID NOT REQUEST THIS POSTING: > ---------------------------------------------- > [This article has NOT yet been posted to Usenet. The reason we send this > email is to authenticate the author of articles we post.] > > If you did not request this article be posted to Usenet via the Deja News > service, that could mean someone using our service forged your address and > attempted to make this article appear as if you had posted it. The person > who did this used the IP address we log in the X-Originating-IP-Addr: > header field of the posting. This person may be able to be traced if you > contact the system administrator at their site. > > If you would like us to try to find out if someone forged your address, > please write to postnews@dejanews.com, include a statement like "I didn't > write this, please find out who did", and include this entire message. We > will try to help you as much as we can, but we are not a legal body and > other system administrators are not always cooperative, so we cannot > promise any results. We are sorry for any inconvenience. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Sun Feb 09 08:05:19 1997 BCC: @MOA.net Message-ID: <32FDCB8F.A3A@moa.net> Date: Sun, 09 Feb 1997 08:05:19 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dopost@grunt.dejanews.com Subject: please post References: <199702091242.GAA00603@grunt.dejanews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 4518 dopost@grunt.dejanews.com wrote: > > [A reply is required to post your article. (If you did not request this, > please do not reply to this email, instead read the instructions at the > bottom of this note, and send any questions to postnews@dejanews.com).] > > You have requested that the following article be posted to Usenet via the > Posting Service at Deja News. Your article is currently sitting in our > spool waiting for you to authorize it by following the following > instructions: > > TO POST YOUR ARTICLE PLEASE READ AND FOLLOW THESE INSTRUCTIONS: > --------------------------------------------------------------- > - You must reply to this email, including the ENTIRE text of this email in > the reply. (It's okay if your email program inserts characters in the left > hand column, e.g. '>', or whatever). The reply MUST be sent to: > dopost@postnews.dejanews.com > - You must change the Subject: header of your reply to contain the > words: "PLEASE POST" (capitalization doesn't matter). (Note: this is the > Subject header of the message you send to us, not the subject header of the > article you wish to have posted). > > [The following string must not be changed/modified/wrapped/truncated.] > TRANSID:015fb0a43da574d13657e032c6aedd353cc5c5890b1e > ===================================================================== ====== > From: @moa.net > Subject: Censored S.R.Bahai #16 > Newsgroups: news.groups > Message-Id: <855492115.588@dejanews.com> > Reply-To: @moa.net > Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service > To: @moa.net > X-Article-Creation-Date: Sun Feb 09 12:41:55 1997 GMT > X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.47 (ppp-pm01-dy-15.ouhub.moa.net) > X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) > > From: FG <@MOA.net> > Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai > Subject: New Sacred Text Unveiled > Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 08:43:04 -0500 > Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A. > Lines: 20 > Message-ID: <32945C68.3378@moa.net> > References: <56tfo6$cgg@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> > <56vdgi$eth@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> > NNTP-Posting-Host: zeus.moa.net > Mime-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) > CC: @MOA.net > X-Mozilla-Status: 0004 > > Apparently, a new text has been discovered. Or perhaps it has always > been there. I, and others, apparently, missed it. It was difficult > to see. Alas, I, we, are so woefully human.... Blind and stumbling > through this morass.... > > The crucial passage in the newly discovered Revealed Word is this: > > > THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT SARCASM! > > > There are sensitive plants. We mustn't hurt their feelings. > > I beg all of you to meditate profoundly on this koan. It has the > power to change the world.... > > > -- > Frederick Glaysher > Rochester, Michigan USA > > -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- > https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet > > ===================================================================== ====== > > WHAT TO DO IF YOU DID NOT REQUEST THIS POSTING: > ---------------------------------------------- > [This article has NOT yet been posted to Usenet. The reason we send this > email is to authenticate the author of articles we post.] > > If you did not request this article be posted to Usenet via the Deja News > service, that could mean someone using our service forged your address and > attempted to make this article appear as if you had posted it. The person > who did this used the IP address we log in the X-Originating-IP-Addr: > header field of the posting. This person may be able to be traced if you > contact the system administrator at their site. > > If you would like us to try to find out if someone forged your address, > please write to postnews@dejanews.com, include a statement like "I didn't > write this, please find out who did", and include this entire message. We > will try to help you as much as we can, but we are not a legal body and > other system administrators are not always cooperative, so we cannot > promise any results. We are sorry for any inconvenience. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Sun Feb 09 08:05:42 1997 BCC: @MOA.net Message-ID: <32FDCBA6.79C6@moa.net> Date: Sun, 09 Feb 1997 08:05:42 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dopost@grunt.dejanews.com Subject: please post References: <199702091244.GAA00624@grunt.dejanews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 7612 dopost@grunt.dejanews.com wrote: > > [A reply is required to post your article. (If you did not request this, > please do not reply to this email, instead read the instructions at the > bottom of this note, and send any questions to postnews@dejanews.com).] > > You have requested that the following article be posted to Usenet via the > Posting Service at Deja News. Your article is currently sitting in our > spool waiting for you to authorize it by following the following > instructions: > > TO POST YOUR ARTICLE PLEASE READ AND FOLLOW THESE INSTRUCTIONS: > --------------------------------------------------------------- > - You must reply to this email, including the ENTIRE text of this email in > the reply. (It's okay if your email program inserts characters in the left > hand column, e.g. '>', or whatever). The reply MUST be sent to: > dopost@postnews.dejanews.com > - You must change the Subject: header of your reply to contain the > words: "PLEASE POST" (capitalization doesn't matter). (Note: this is the > Subject header of the message you send to us, not the subject header of the > article you wish to have posted). > > [The following string must not be changed/modified/wrapped/truncated.] > TRANSID:110f30d41d95641169da76880f1c57a2b335eba0c262 > ===================================================================== ====== > From: @moa.net > Subject: Censored S.R.Bahai #17 > Newsgroups: news.groups > Message-Id: <855492234.617@dejanews.com> > Reply-To: @moa.net > Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service > To: @moa.net > X-Article-Creation-Date: Sun Feb 09 12:43:55 1997 GMT > X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.47 (ppp-pm01-dy-15.ouhub.moa.net) > X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) > > From: FG <@moa.net> > X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) > MIME-Version: 1.0 > To: "Richard C. Detweiler" > CC: @MOA.net > Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community > References: <199611202214.PAA26784@primenet.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 > > Richard C. Detweiler wrote: > > > > > > > > > > The charter of the newsgroup states that "the Newsgroup will be > subject > > > > to standards of Baha'i consultation whose salient features include > frank > > > > yet respectful statement of views and the concerted, open-minded > search > > > > for truth." It is on this statement in the charter and this > statement > > > > alone that I have rejected some of your posts. > > > > > > I don't believe this is true. "Utterly naive" refers to the idea, not > to > > > its author as an insult. You're the one who has construed that way. > I can't > > > even understand what could possibly be WRONG with your objection to > the > > > second passage in the post in question. > > > > > > > Thank you for pointing this out - I hadn't thought of it like that. > > Then what's YOUR problem. Post it or suppress it. > > But I > > hope you can see that if I (and the other mods) can be confused on this > > point, it will probably be the case with many in the readership as well. > > You're assumption is that OTHERS will be as imperceptive as you. And > hence > you BAN ME! > > > Our tendency is to err on the side of not posting things when they may > be > > misinterpretted by the readership as being attacks or insults. > > Even after admitting the ERROR is on your part? Not logical. You're > trying > to justify your heavy-handed will to BAN. > > That way, > > the respectful tone is maintained. > > There is nothing disrespectful about either passage YOU'VE questioned. > > Remember that the readership includes > > people from all backgrounds and cultures. > > Irrelevant justification. You're groping for excuses. > > I have been surprised many times > > when seemingly innocuous comments have offended. > > Nothing would then ever get posted in your scenario. Unless it meets > your prejudices. > > I try to make sure the > > chance of this is kept to a minimum. > > > > I don't know that. You're suppression to posting ratio would be required > to make that determination; it would have to be independently confirmed. > > > And, if I may, don't you think "I believe you are being naive > because..." > > makes your points easier for other to accept and continue to engage you > > rather than a brusque "Utterly naive"? Please think about that. I > > assume your reason for being here is to share your viewpoint with > others. > > > > You sound like a schoolmarm. A self-righteous, prudish old bag. What > gives > you the right? God's charter? It doesn't come from Him. > > > > Your attempt to hide behind the newsgroup charter strikes me as a mere > > > stratagem to conceal what you're actually doing: CENSORING. > > > > > > > Once again, Mr Glaysher - my job is not to supress ideas but to make > sure > > those ideas are presented in a respectful manner conducive to frank and > > unfettered consultation. > > > > You're completely fettering my consultation. But that's okay. You > possess > the prescience to know better. Again, you're groping for justification of > your suppressing the presentation of my views to others. > > > I continue to await the chance to post your thoughts in the submittals > in > > question when they are appropriate for posting to the newsgroup. > > > > Mr. Detweiler, you appear to me to be completely shameless and drunk on > your > little power to muzzle people who don't echo your opinions. > > > Dick Detweiler > > co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai > > Again, I ask you to post my message since as you acknowledge above its > about > IDEAS. > > -- > Frederick Glaysher > Rochester, Michigan USA > > -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- > https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet > > ===================================================================== ====== > > WHAT TO DO IF YOU DID NOT REQUEST THIS POSTING: > ---------------------------------------------- > [This article has NOT yet been posted to Usenet. The reason we send this > email is to authenticate the author of articles we post.] > > If you did not request this article be posted to Usenet via the Deja News > service, that could mean someone using our service forged your address and > attempted to make this article appear as if you had posted it. The person > who did this used the IP address we log in the X-Originating-IP-Addr: > header field of the posting. This person may be able to be traced if you > contact the system administrator at their site. > > If you would like us to try to find out if someone forged your address, > please write to postnews@dejanews.com, include a statement like "I didn't > write this, please find out who did", and include this entire message. We > will try to help you as much as we can, but we are not a legal body and > other system administrators are not always cooperative, so we cannot > promise any results. We are sorry for any inconvenience. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Sun Feb 09 08:06:08 1997 BCC: @MOA.net Message-ID: <32FDCBBF.61E3@moa.net> Date: Sun, 09 Feb 1997 08:06:07 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dopost@grunt.dejanews.com Subject: please post References: <199702091249.GAA00683@grunt.dejanews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 8767 dopost@grunt.dejanews.com wrote: > > [A reply is required to post your article. (If you did not request this, > please do not reply to this email, instead read the instructions at the > bottom of this note, and send any questions to postnews@dejanews.com).] > > You have requested that the following article be posted to Usenet via the > Posting Service at Deja News. Your article is currently sitting in our > spool waiting for you to authorize it by following the following > instructions: > > TO POST YOUR ARTICLE PLEASE READ AND FOLLOW THESE INSTRUCTIONS: > --------------------------------------------------------------- > - You must reply to this email, including the ENTIRE text of this email in > the reply. (It's okay if your email program inserts characters in the left > hand column, e.g. '>', or whatever). The reply MUST be sent to: > dopost@postnews.dejanews.com > - You must change the Subject: header of your reply to contain the > words: "PLEASE POST" (capitalization doesn't matter). (Note: this is the > Subject header of the message you send to us, not the subject header of the > article you wish to have posted). > > [The following string must not be changed/modified/wrapped/truncated.] > TRANSID:511fb014cd2534c10d9c8cebcb9845352a8ac63f8ee1 > ===================================================================== ====== > From: @moa.net > Subject: Censored S.R.Bahai #18 > Newsgroups: news.groups > Message-Id: <855492571.666@dejanews.com> > Reply-To: @moa.net > Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service > To: @moa.net > X-Article-Creation-Date: Sun Feb 09 12:49:33 1997 GMT > X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.47 (ppp-pm01-dy-15.ouhub.moa.net) > X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) > > From: "Richard C. Detweiler" > Message-Id: <199611221548.IAA01560@primenet.com> > Subject: Re: New Sacred Text Unveiled > To: @MOA.net (Frederick Glaysher) > Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 08:48:14 -0700 (MST) > Cc: srb-mods@bcca.org > In-Reply-To: <3295A80D.1168@moa.net> from "Frederick Glaysher" at Nov 22, > 96 08:18:05 am > X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] > Content-Type: text > X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 > > > Dear Mr. Glaysher, > > Sorry for the inadvertent send on the last message. The following will > not be posted to the newsgroup as it is disrespectful in tone and > sarcastic > in the extreme. As a Baha'i, perhaps you will get some value out of the > following excerpts from Baha'u'llah's Writings. I provide them as insight > into why the moderators enforce the policies they have in place. > > "O ye beloved of the Lord! Commit not that which defileth the limpid > stream of love or destroyeth the sweet fragrance of friendship. By > the righteousness of the Lord! We were created to show love one to > another and not perversity and rancor. Take pride not in love for > yourselves but in love for your fellow-creatures. Glory not in love > for your country, but in love for all mankind." > > - Baha'u'llah, Tablets of Baha'u'llah 138 (quoted in > "Unrestrained > as the Wind", section on "Demonstrating love and fellowship", p 87 > ). > > "Say: Human utterance is an essence which aspireth to exert its > influence and needeth moderation. As to its influence, this is > conditional upon refinement which in turn is dependent upon hearts > which are detached and pure. As to its moderation, this hath to be > combined with tact and wisdom as prescribed in the Holy Scriptures > and Tablets. Meditate upon that which hath streamed forth from the > heaven of the Will of thy Lord, He Who is the Source of all grace, > that thou mayest grasp the intended meaning which is enshrined in > the sacred depths of the Holy Writings." > > - Baha'u'llah, Tablet of Wisdom, Tablets of Baha'u'llah, p. 143 > > "For the tongue is a smouldering fire, and excess of speech > a deadly poison. Material fire consumeth the body, whereas > the fire of the tongue devoureth both heart and soul. The > force of the former lasteth but for a time, whilst the > effects of the latter endure a century." > - Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 193 > > > Thank you for participating, > > Dick Detweiler > rdetweil@primenet.com > Co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai > > ================ Begin submitted post ========================= > > > To: soc-religion-bahai@uunet.uu.net > > Path: ppp-pm01-dy-11.ouhub.moa.net > > From: FG <@MOA.net> > > Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai > > Subject: New Sacred Text Unveiled > > Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 08:18:05 -0500 > > Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A. > > Lines: 20 > > Message-ID: <3295A80D.1168@moa.net> > > References: <56vhv1$p1e@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> > > NNTP-Posting-Host: zeus.moa.net > > Mime-Version: 1.0 > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) > > CC: @MOA.net > > > > Apparently, a new text has been discovered. Or perhaps it has always > > been there. I, and others, apparently, missed it. It was difficult > > to see. Alas, I, we, are so woefully human.... Blind and stumbling > > through this morass.... > > > > The crucial passage in the newly discovered Revealed Word is this: > > > > > > THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT SARCASM! > > > > > > There are sensitive plants. We mustn't hurt their feelings. > > > > I beg all of you to meditate profoundly on this koan. It has the > > power to change the world.... > > > > > > -- > > Frederick Glaysher > > Rochester, Michigan USA > > > > > ================ End submitted post =========================== > From - Sun Nov 24 10:10:50 1996 > Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.60) by atlas.moa.net > (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; > Sat, 23 Nov 1996 07:34:58 -0500 > Message-ID: <3296F108.4BEF@moa.net> > Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 07:41:44 -0500 > From: FG <@moa.net> > X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) > MIME-Version: 1.0 > To: "Richard C. Detweiler" > CC: @MOA.net > Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community > References: <199611211540.IAA09540@primenet.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 > > What I wrote meets the charter of the newsgroup and the "modifications" > you want are unnecessary and unjustifiable. You yourself > acknowledged your request for "modification" was based on your own > misreading and misunderstanding of the post. > > God save us if the Baha'i Faith comes down to people like you > "protecting" us.... > > I ask you again to post it or pass it on to someone else who's > more rational than you. > > -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- > https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet > > ===================================================================== ====== > > WHAT TO DO IF YOU DID NOT REQUEST THIS POSTING: > ---------------------------------------------- > [This article has NOT yet been posted to Usenet. The reason we send this > email is to authenticate the author of articles we post.] > > If you did not request this article be posted to Usenet via the Deja News > service, that could mean someone using our service forged your address and > attempted to make this article appear as if you had posted it. The person > who did this used the IP address we log in the X-Originating-IP-Addr: > header field of the posting. This person may be able to be traced if you > contact the system administrator at their site. > > If you would like us to try to find out if someone forged your address, > please write to postnews@dejanews.com, include a statement like "I didn't > write this, please find out who did", and include this entire message. We > will try to help you as much as we can, but we are not a legal body and > other system administrators are not always cooperative, so we cannot > promise any results. We are sorry for any inconvenience. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Sun Feb 09 08:06:48 1997 BCC: @MOA.net Message-ID: <32FDCBE8.493C@moa.net> Date: Sun, 09 Feb 1997 08:06:48 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dopost@grunt.dejanews.com Subject: please post References: <199702091254.GAA00781@grunt.dejanews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 8272 dopost@grunt.dejanews.com wrote: > > [A reply is required to post your article. (If you did not request this, > please do not reply to this email, instead read the instructions at the > bottom of this note, and send any questions to postnews@dejanews.com).] > > You have requested that the following article be posted to Usenet via the > Posting Service at Deja News. Your article is currently sitting in our > spool waiting for you to authorize it by following the following > instructions: > > TO POST YOUR ARTICLE PLEASE READ AND FOLLOW THESE INSTRUCTIONS: > --------------------------------------------------------------- > - You must reply to this email, including the ENTIRE text of this email in > the reply. (It's okay if your email program inserts characters in the left > hand column, e.g. '>', or whatever). The reply MUST be sent to: > dopost@postnews.dejanews.com > - You must change the Subject: header of your reply to contain the > words: "PLEASE POST" (capitalization doesn't matter). (Note: this is the > Subject header of the message you send to us, not the subject header of the > article you wish to have posted). > > [The following string must not be changed/modified/wrapped/truncated.] > TRANSID:e1cf40b41d9574716336dcc13b35be79a6812a073a4c > ===================================================================== ====== > From: @moa.net > Subject: Censored S.R.Bahai #19 > Newsgroups: news.groups > Message-Id: <855492867.757@dejanews.com> > Reply-To: @moa.net > Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service > To: @moa.net > X-Article-Creation-Date: Sun Feb 09 12:54:28 1997 GMT > X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.47 (ppp-pm01-dy-15.ouhub.moa.net) > X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) > > Subject: > Re: forming talk.religion.bahai > Date: > Sat, 08 Feb 1997 07:33:29 -0500 > From: > Frederick Glaysher <@moa.net> > To: > boatright@cjnetworks.com > References: > 1 > > > Samantha, Michele, or someone has asked for my retractions.... I've > posted the > message to news.groups since it's another censored one.... As I > mentioned > to her, she, they, decided to post the other person's original nasty > message that hurts my little feelings.... but that's okay.... > no censorship or unfairness involved.... > -- > > > Rick Boatright wrote: > > > > Dear Frederick, > > > > Again, I have seen a note that Michele felt that the "psychology > > student, first year" comment was a direct attack and asking you to > > please either forward this via direct email or edit that line. The > > post as a whole is of course, entirely within charter and we _very > > much_ want to post your stuff, but please reffer to Michele's direct > > comments to you rather than trusting my poor memory. > > > > Are you having email trouble? I _know_ I saw this one go out. > > > > Rick Boatright > > > > > [Please post or reject this message.] > > > > > > > > > Subject: > > > Re: Forward to soc.religion.bahai > > > Date: > > > Wed, 05 Feb 1997 07:41:38 -0500 > > > From: > > > Frederick Glaysher <@moa.net> > > > To: > > > Samantha > > > BCC: > > > @MOA.net > > > References: > > > 1 > > > > > > > > > Samantha wrote: > > > > > > > > [Please forward this post to soc.religion.bahai after you've read it > > > > yourself.] > > > > > > Forward and post your own messages. This one, with my response. > > > > > > > > > > > Frederick, > > > > > > > > You probably should form your own newsgroup. The mis-directed anger > that > > > > you display in soc.religion.bahai is embarrassing to witness. > > > > > > > > > > Now what about my FEELINGS? It's okay for YOU to make blanket > > > statements > > > unsupported by particular references.... > > > > > > > Your claim that the moderators of this newsgroup are too controlling > is > > > > unfounded and inaccurate. > > > > > > I believe it's true. Read the censored messages at news.groups > > > There's a newly censored one I'll be posting there this morning.... > > > > > > If you consider the variety of topics > > > > discussed in the space of one week, you'll see that quite a wide > > > > spectrum is covered. > > > > > > And how many censored messages never get through? We wouldn't know > > > that, would we? > > > > > > Like all newsgroups, this one has a few (very few) > > > > parameters that are enforced, simply for the sake of maintaining > some > > > > type of order. > > > > > > Not in my experience. They are constantly interfering in > communication > > > for all kinds of trivial reasons.... > > > > > > The request that posts relate directly to the Baha'i > > > > Faith is fair, and quite broad, in my opinion. > > > > > > > > > > I've never said otherwise. > > > > > > > There must be some reason that you're attacking the moderators of > > > > soc.relion.bahai, and the Baha'i Faith itself, with such vehemence. > > > > > > First of all, I'm not attacking them. I'm defending my own religious > > > conscience and free speech. Why is it you don't care or have the > > > slightest respect, apparently, for the integrity of my own mind? > > > I'm not attacking the Bahai Faith; they are, in a sense, in my > > > opinion. (I don't want to overemphasize that last statement. I'm > > > not demonizing them. I'm sure they're sincere too in their own > > > beliefs, and I respect that.) The Bahai Writings uphold the > > > individual's expression of conscience. > > > > > > > However, I'd venture to guess that it's nothing Baha'i-related, but > > > > something that you're suffering internally. This newsgroup just > happens > > > > to provide a convenient, emotionally-safe venue for you to express > your > > > > anger. > > > > > > > > > > Now let me guess. You're a pyschology student? First year? > > > > > > > I hope you find the answers you're looking for. You sound like > someone > > > > who's in a lot of pain. > > > > > > > > Samantha > > > > > > I'm sure you mean well or think you do? May God bless you, and help > > > you to mature.... > > > > > > -- > > > Frederick Glaysher > > > Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > > > > > -- > Frederick Glaysher > Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > > -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- > https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet > > ===================================================================== ====== > > WHAT TO DO IF YOU DID NOT REQUEST THIS POSTING: > ---------------------------------------------- > [This article has NOT yet been posted to Usenet. The reason we send this > email is to authenticate the author of articles we post.] > > If you did not request this article be posted to Usenet via the Deja News > service, that could mean someone using our service forged your address and > attempted to make this article appear as if you had posted it. The person > who did this used the IP address we log in the X-Originating-IP-Addr: > header field of the posting. This person may be able to be traced if you > contact the system administrator at their site. > > If you would like us to try to find out if someone forged your address, > please write to postnews@dejanews.com, include a statement like "I didn't > write this, please find out who did", and include this entire message. We > will try to help you as much as we can, but we are not a legal body and > other system administrators are not always cooperative, so we cannot > promise any results. We are sorry for any inconvenience. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Mon Feb 10 06:10:26 1997 BCC: @MOA.net Message-ID: <32FF0222.71AE@moa.net> Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 06:10:26 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dopost@grunt.dejanews.com Subject: please post References: <199702101039.EAA02280@grunt.dejanews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 6825 dopost@grunt.dejanews.com wrote: > > [A reply is required to post your article. (If you did not request this, > please do not reply to this email, instead read the instructions at the > bottom of this note, and send any questions to postnews@dejanews.com).] > > You have requested that the following article be posted to Usenet via the > Posting Service at Deja News. Your article is currently sitting in our > spool waiting for you to authorize it by following the following > instructions: > > TO POST YOUR ARTICLE PLEASE READ AND FOLLOW THESE INSTRUCTIONS: > --------------------------------------------------------------- > - You must reply to this email, including the ENTIRE text of this email in > the reply. (It's okay if your email program inserts characters in the left > hand column, e.g. '>', or whatever). The reply MUST be sent to: > dopost@postnews.dejanews.com > - You must change the Subject: header of your reply to contain the > words: "PLEASE POST" (capitalization doesn't matter). (Note: this is the > Subject header of the message you send to us, not the subject header of the > article you wish to have posted). > > [The following string must not be changed/modified/wrapped/truncated.] > TRANSID:116f10840de5f421226d1b899df6a6ad37abf6437a15 > ===================================================================== ====== > From: @moa.net > Subject: Re: Censorship: s.r.bahai-3 > Newsgroups: news.groups > Message-Id: <855571187.2273@dejanews.com> > Reply-To: @moa.net > Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service > To: eatcaca@hotmail.com,@moa.net > References: <854889179.13648@dejanews.com> <854977853.19354@dejanews.com> <32F8DE5C.5491@east.sun.com> <32F94956.651C@hotmail.com> > X-Article-Creation-Date: Mon Feb 10 10:39:47 1997 GMT > X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.47 (ppp-pm01-dy-15.ouhub.moa.net) > X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) > > In article <32F94956.651C@hotmail.com>, > eatcaca@hotmail.com wrote: > > > > Mark Towfiq wrote: > > > > > > Frederick Glaysher wrote: > > > > I attempted to post a message or two to s.r.b charging > > > > censorship a couple of months ago but they were suppressed, as > > > > were other messages from me. > > > > > > I rather doubt whether meta-discussion ABOUT a moderated newsgroup > > > belongs in the newsgroup; it certainly doesn't fit the SRB charter. I > > > would have rejected such postings myself. The newsgroup exists for > > > people to discuss the Baha'i Faith, not argue about how the group is > > > run. That's what news.groups is for. :^) > > > > > > > Perhaps ipso facto that makes me a transgressor and miscreant? You > > > > and others were deprived of deciding for yourselves. I rest my case. > > > > > > I am rather thankful I did not see such postings in SRB; furthermore, as > > > others have pointed out, if you really would like us to decide for > > > ourselves, let's see the postings you sent, and the moderators' > > > responses. > > >  > > > > In terms of volume, I believe there is every reason to believe > > > > that sufficient volume would exist talk.religion.bahai and > > > > that the range and depths of topics would increase free of > > > > smug, self-righteous, self-appointed guardians of public > > > > discussion.... > > > > > > I think it is quite unfair that you would make such accusations at the > > > moderators of SRB without having the decency to back them up with facts. > > I've attempted several times to upload them to news.groups. A technical > problem I and my ISP can't figure out is preventing me from doing so. > Don't give up. They'll be there yet. > > > > It is quite rude to call someone "smug" and "self-righteous"; I > > > wouldn't be surprised if this is the flavor of postings you had rejected > > > from SRB, and I certainly won't vote "YES" for a newsgroup designed just > > > so you can flame about other people. > > > > > Censorship isn't rude? I'll grant it certainly brings out the worst in > me.... > > > > As for "self-appointed", the moderators of SRB were not self-appointed > > > (they were interviewed by the previous moderators; I think Internet > > > connectivity and familiarity with USENET were the highest criteria). > > Interviewed for what, their fascist leanings? No one voted for them; > no one with in the administration appointed them, and yet they are > regularly censoring messages, not only from myself but from many > people.... It only makes sense that you wouldn't know, or do you? > > As > > > I've already said, if a problem exists with the moderation, let's fix > > > it. As I've said before, creating a new newsgroup doesn't fix it. > > > > > Too late. Scrap the whole corrupt newsgroup. That's what I'm doing. > Make no mistake. If anyone out there will upload my censored > messages for me, email me at @moa.net.... > > > > Regards, > > > Markso m th ing i s > > > w ron > > g w i t h m y post > > -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- > https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet > > ===================================================================== ====== > > WHAT TO DO IF YOU DID NOT REQUEST THIS POSTING: > ---------------------------------------------- > [This article has NOT yet been posted to Usenet. The reason we send this > email is to authenticate the author of articles we post.] > > If you did not request this article be posted to Usenet via the Deja News > service, that could mean someone using our service forged your address and > attempted to make this article appear as if you had posted it. The person > who did this used the IP address we log in the X-Originating-IP-Addr: > header field of the posting. This person may be able to be traced if you > contact the system administrator at their site. > > If you would like us to try to find out if someone forged your address, > please write to postnews@dejanews.com, include a statement like "I didn't > write this, please find out who did", and include this entire message. We > will try to help you as much as we can, but we are not a legal body and > other system administrators are not always cooperative, so we cannot > promise any results. We are sorry for any inconvenience. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Mon Feb 10 06:10:55 1997 BCC: @MOA.net Message-ID: <32FF023F.777@moa.net> Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 06:10:55 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dopost@grunt.dejanews.com Subject: please post References: <199702101052.EAA02428@grunt.dejanews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 7198 dopost@grunt.dejanews.com wrote: > > [A reply is required to post your article. (If you did not request this, > please do not reply to this email, instead read the instructions at the > bottom of this note, and send any questions to postnews@dejanews.com).] > > You have requested that the following article be posted to Usenet via the > Posting Service at Deja News. Your article is currently sitting in our > spool waiting for you to authorize it by following the following > instructions: > > TO POST YOUR ARTICLE PLEASE READ AND FOLLOW THESE INSTRUCTIONS: > --------------------------------------------------------------- > - You must reply to this email, including the ENTIRE text of this email in > the reply. (It's okay if your email program inserts characters in the left > hand column, e.g. '>', or whatever). The reply MUST be sent to: > dopost@postnews.dejanews.com > - You must change the Subject: header of your reply to contain the > words: "PLEASE POST" (capitalization doesn't matter). (Note: this is the > Subject header of the message you send to us, not the subject header of the > article you wish to have posted). > > [The following string must not be changed/modified/wrapped/truncated.] > TRANSID:21cfb0c4ddb524417752cd93bd70e0f32d4ffdd271b5 > ===================================================================== ====== > From: @moa.net > Subject: Re: Censorship: s.r.bahai-3 > Newsgroups: news.groups > Message-Id: <855571926.2413@dejanews.com> > Reply-To: @moa.net > Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service > To: towfiq@east.sun.com,@moa.net > References: <854889179.13648@dejanews.com> <854977853.19354@dejanews.com> <32F8DE5C.5491@east.sun.com> > X-Article-Creation-Date: Mon Feb 10 10:52:07 1997 GMT > X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.47 (ppp-pm01-dy-15.ouhub.moa.net) > X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) > > In article <32F8DE5C.5491@east.sun.com>, > Mark Towfiq wrote: > > > > Frederick Glaysher wrote: > > > I attempted to post a message or two to s.r.b charging > > > censorship a couple of months ago but they were suppressed, as > > > were other messages from me. > > > > I rather doubt whether meta-discussion ABOUT a moderated newsgroup > > belongs in the newsgroup; it certainly doesn't fit the SRB charter. I > > would have rejected such postings myself. The newsgroup exists for > > people to discuss the Baha'i Faith, not argue about how the group is > > run. That's what news.groups is for. :^) > > > > What the "moderators" were doing was protecting their own rear ends. > They're censoring people allllll the time now.... Unappointed, and > no one voted for them.... Fascists through and through.... > > > > Perhaps ipso facto that makes me a transgressor and miscreant? You > > > and others were deprived of deciding for yourselves. I rest my case. > > > > I am rather thankful I did not see such postings in SRB; furthermore, as > > others have pointed out, if you really would like us to decide for > > ourselves, let's see the postings you sent, and the moderators' > > responses. > > I'm having a technical problem that's preventing me from uploading > them to news.groups though I've tried at least five times in the > last week. If anyone out there will upload them for me, email > me at @moa.net..... > > > > > In terms of volume, I believe there is every reason to believe > > > that sufficient volume would exist talk.religion.bahai and > > > that the range and depths of topics would increase free of > > > smug, self-righteous, self-appointed guardians of public > > > discussion.... > > > > I think it is quite unfair that you would make such accusations at the > > moderators of SRB without having the decency to back them up with facts. > > It's unfair that they suppress messages apparently every day now and > lie that it's all based on "flames," irrelevancy, etc.... > > > It is quite rude to call someone "smug" and "self-righteous"; I > > wouldn't be surprised if this is the flavor of postings you had rejected > > from SRB, and I certainly won't vote "YES" for a newsgroup designed just > > so you can flame about other people. > > > > They are smug and self-righteous about their censoring.... Most censors > have been in human history.... Haven't you noticed that? It's all > for the good of others, and THEY know what's good for other people. > I want people to speak freely what they think, not what I think they > SHOULD be saying.... > > > As for "self-appointed", the moderators of SRB were not self-appointed > > (they were interviewed by the previous moderators; > > By other fascist oppressors? That's my reading of it. Stalin and > Hitler working together for the good of the people of Poland.... > > I think Internet > > connectivity and familiarity with USENET were the highest criteria). > > Meaningless ruse.... > > As > > I've already said, if a problem exists with the moderation, let's fix > > it. As I've said before, creating a new newsgroup doesn't fix it. > > > > Too late. They had their chance and blew it. They've proven, judging > by the amount of email I'm getting daily now, to many people that > they're smug, self-righteous, self-appointed guardians of public > discussion and morality vitiating now all discussion on > soc.religion.bahai.... > > > Regards, > > Mark > > Frederick Glaysher > Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > > -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- > https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet > > ===================================================================== ====== > > WHAT TO DO IF YOU DID NOT REQUEST THIS POSTING: > ---------------------------------------------- > [This article has NOT yet been posted to Usenet. The reason we send this > email is to authenticate the author of articles we post.] > > If you did not request this article be posted to Usenet via the Deja News > service, that could mean someone using our service forged your address and > attempted to make this article appear as if you had posted it. The person > who did this used the IP address we log in the X-Originating-IP-Addr: > header field of the posting. This person may be able to be traced if you > contact the system administrator at their site. > > If you would like us to try to find out if someone forged your address, > please write to postnews@dejanews.com, include a statement like "I didn't > write this, please find out who did", and include this entire message. We > will try to help you as much as we can, but we are not a legal body and > other system administrators are not always cooperative, so we cannot > promise any results. We are sorry for any inconvenience. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Mon Feb 10 06:11:24 1997 BCC: @MOA.net Message-ID: <32FF025C.3943@moa.net> Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 06:11:24 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dopost@grunt.dejanews.com Subject: please post References: <199702101103.FAA02630@grunt.dejanews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 6820 dopost@grunt.dejanews.com wrote: > > [A reply is required to post your article. (If you did not request this, > please do not reply to this email, instead read the instructions at the > bottom of this note, and send any questions to postnews@dejanews.com).] > > You have requested that the following article be posted to Usenet via the > Posting Service at Deja News. Your article is currently sitting in our > spool waiting for you to authorize it by following the following > instructions: > > TO POST YOUR ARTICLE PLEASE READ AND FOLLOW THESE INSTRUCTIONS: > --------------------------------------------------------------- > - You must reply to this email, including the ENTIRE text of this email in > the reply. (It's okay if your email program inserts characters in the left > hand column, e.g. '>', or whatever). The reply MUST be sent to: > dopost@postnews.dejanews.com > - You must change the Subject: header of your reply to contain the > words: "PLEASE POST" (capitalization doesn't matter). (Note: this is the > Subject header of the message you send to us, not the subject header of the > article you wish to have posted). > > [The following string must not be changed/modified/wrapped/truncated.] > TRANSID:112f10146d955471bbd11ab06f604a8d2d2ba62feb33 > ===================================================================== ====== > From: @moa.net > Subject: Response 3 or 4 to Towfiq > Newsgroups: news.groups > Message-Id: <855572587.2613@dejanews.com> > Reply-To: @moa.net > Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service > To: towfiq@east.sun.com,cbstone@phoenix.princeton.edu,@moa.net > References: <854889179.13648@dejanews.com> <32F4EC46.5EB3@why.net> <854976466.18697@dejanews.com> <32F66B3F.2C7C@east.sun.com> <5d6qmd$67a@cnn.Princeton.EDU> <32F759C8.7D39@east.sun.com> <855229799.28739@dejanews.com> <32FA06E2.262A@east.sun.com> > X-Article-Creation-Date: Mon Feb 10 11:03:07 1997 GMT > X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.47 (ppp-pm01-dy-15.ouhub.moa.net) > X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) > > In article <32FA06E2.262A@east.sun.com>, > Mark Towfiq wrote: > > > > Frederick Glaysher wrote: > > > I believe the examples demonstrate a need for an unmoderated group in > > > order to protect freedom of speech and conscience. I don't believe > > > we should minimize that need. > > > > There is a charter for the soc.religion.bahai newsgroup; is your argument with > the > > charter or with the moderators' execution of the charter? In either case, a > > discussion can be had about it. I don't see where the need to create an > entirely > > new newsgroup comes from. > > Too late. The charter is irrelevant. The vote approaches.... The > Soviet Union had a lovely, largely democratic constitution as many > reputable historians have pointed out.... Any piece of paper can be > abused as that charter has been. Hence, I believe only a newsgroup > unmanipulated, undistorted by any smug, self-righteous, pious, > arrogant "moderator" can ever ensure now a free and open forum for > discussion of the Bahai Faith. > > > > > Unless, as I suspect from reading your postings here, that you really want to > > create a forum for you, personally, to talk about the Baha'i Faith, in which > case > > perhaps the RFD should be for talk.religion.bahai.frederick-glaysher. In that > > case, as has been pointed out, talk.religion.misc exists for you to do all the > > "free speaking" you wish. > > Cute. I've said it before. It will be for all those censored by > soc.religion.bahai, and apparently people like you. I want a forum for > all interested parties to discuss the Bahai Faith free from distorting > intervention on the part of anyone.... > > >  > > > Completely misses the point. It can't be fixed.... The very nature of > > > moderated newsgroups is to censor, and it will happen again. Ergo, one > > > that can't be controled and manipulated because of the very form in > > > which it is created is essential. > > > > Based on this paragraph, I conclude that your argument is with moderation on > USENET > > in general, and you have made an RFD because the topic you want to talk about > has a > > moderated newsgroup. Most people understand that the nature of moderated > groups is > > to keep the signal-to-noise ratio high, and keep out irrelevent, duplicate, or > > flaming postings. > > The nature of soc.religion.bahai is to lie, deceive, manipulate, suppress > discussion about the Bahai Faith.... That's my experience.... That's > the experience of many other people.... That's why I believe the vote > will be in favor of an uncensored forum: talk.religion.bahai > > This is an advance of USENET that came about because of the > > problems in unmoderated groups; creation of an unmoderated group would be a > step > > backwards. > > > > > I've stated it repeatedly! Read the examples of censorship I've posted > > > on news.groups.... > > > > I can't find them there. When did you post them? > > > > I'm working on it. If anyone out there will upload them for me, > email me.... > > > > Mark > > -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- > https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet > > ===================================================================== ====== > > WHAT TO DO IF YOU DID NOT REQUEST THIS POSTING: > ---------------------------------------------- > [This article has NOT yet been posted to Usenet. The reason we send this > email is to authenticate the author of articles we post.] > > If you did not request this article be posted to Usenet via the Deja News > service, that could mean someone using our service forged your address and > attempted to make this article appear as if you had posted it. The person > who did this used the IP address we log in the X-Originating-IP-Addr: > header field of the posting. This person may be able to be traced if you > contact the system administrator at their site. > > If you would like us to try to find out if someone forged your address, > please write to postnews@dejanews.com, include a statement like "I didn't > write this, please find out who did", and include this entire message. We > will try to help you as much as we can, but we are not a legal body and > other system administrators are not always cooperative, so we cannot > promise any results. We are sorry for any inconvenience. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Tue Feb 11 07:15:48 1997 BCC: @MOA.net Message-ID: <330062F3.4ADA@moa.net> Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 07:15:48 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dopost@grunt.dejanews.com Subject: please post References: <199702110941.DAA28643@grunt.dejanews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 8450 dopost@grunt.dejanews.com wrote: > > [A reply is required to post your article. (If you did not request this, > please do not reply to this email, instead read the instructions at the > bottom of this note, and send any questions to postnews@dejanews.com).] > > You have requested that the following article be posted to Usenet via the > Posting Service at Deja News. Your article is currently sitting in our > spool waiting for you to authorize it by following the following > instructions: > > TO POST YOUR ARTICLE PLEASE READ AND FOLLOW THESE INSTRUCTIONS: > --------------------------------------------------------------- > - You must reply to this email, including the ENTIRE text of this email in > the reply. (It's okay if your email program inserts characters in the left > hand column, e.g. '>', or whatever). The reply MUST be sent to: > dopost@postnews.dejanews.com > - You must change the Subject: header of your reply to contain the > words: "PLEASE POST" (capitalization doesn't matter). (Note: this is the > Subject header of the message you send to us, not the subject header of the > article you wish to have posted). > > [The following string must not be changed/modified/wrapped/truncated.] > TRANSID:314f70142dd5f4311c1e73204e619f63505ce8ec5192 > ===================================================================== ====== > From: @moa.net > Subject: Respone Re: Censored S.R.Bahai #10 > Newsgroups: news.groups > Message-Id: <855653900.28603@dejanews.com> > Reply-To: @moa.net > Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service > To: boatright@cjnetworks.com > References: <854889179.13648@dejanews.com> <855231267.29104@dejanews.com> <32FA096E.7CED@east.sun.com> <855352728.4063@dejanews.com> <5dgpbo$ifk@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> <855491017.390@dejanews.com> <01bc16c4$9a338500$3a9e34ce@rickboat> > X-Article-Creation-Date: Tue Feb 11 09:38:22 1997 GMT > X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.60 (ppp-pm01-dy-28.ouhub.moa.net) > X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) > > In article <01bc16c4$9a338500$3a9e34ce@rickboat>, > "Amanda Boayright" wrote: > > > > Wait a minute! > > > > This post I need to respond to. Frederick Glaysher submitted to the > > newsgroup a posting which, I thought might have been posted to the group in > > error. It had the tone of private email. So, I wrote him a _very_ polite > > note, which you have NOT seen, asking if he had posted in error, or if this > > was private email. > > It's there, I believe. I don't recall any other email. > > I specifically said that the original note was postable > > and I got back a hateful note saying that I was censoring him and to "Just > > post what I write" > > > > "Hateful note" is overdoing it. Furthermore, the context is one of > constant censorship as is demonstrated by the other messages here. > What about that context? Trying to ignore that and put it all on > "hateful" me? > > > I _did_ post what he wrote. > > Only after interfering.... > > It went to the newsgroup. No censorship of > > that message occured. Then, I responded with his demand to post with the > > note you see quoted below asking him to calm down, that I had no intent to > > censor his remarks, but was trying to provide a service by asking if he > > intended the post to be public. As is quoted below, that happens a good > > bit. I was trying to provide a SERVICE. > > > > This, quoted below then, is NOT a censored submission to the newsgroup. It > > is the second reply to a simple question. > > > > It's an example of how trivial the interference is on the part of the > nannies who run soc.religion.bahai.... > > > Rick Boatright > > co-moderator > > soc.religion.bahai > > > > @moa.net wrote in article <855491017.390@dejanews.com>... > > > Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 06:47:54 -0500 > > > From: FG <@moa.net> > > > X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) > > > MIME-Version: 1.0 > > > To: boatright@cjnetworks.com > > > CC: @MOA.net > > > Subject: Re: The Integrity of Bahai Marriage (revised) > > > References: <199611181657.KAA17797@topeka.cjnetworks.com> > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 > > > > > > Rick Boatright wrote: > > > > > > > > And in your internal model, what is the difference between a > > > > moderator and a censor? > > > > > > See previous message to you. > > > > > > I asked a polite question. Did you intend > > > > to post this? > > > > > > I sent it to the newsgroup, didn't I? > > > > > > Lots of people post things they didn't intend to, and > > > > we catch a lot of those. > > > > > > In such cases, you'd be properly assisting discussion. > > > > > > They are generally greatful. I didn't > > > > complain that you characterize Baha'i women as bloodless. > > > > > > Why should you? What business is it of yours? I'm not writing to you, > > > nor do I want to. Yet here I am stuck in a non-productive task dealing > > > with you and Richard.... > > > > > > I probebly > > > > should. > > > > > > Why should you. Who the hell are you? > > > > > > I didn't complain that your comment was bigoted and > > > > offensive to the vast majority of sexually active and spirited Baha'i > > > > women, though I probebly should. > > > > > > A complaint you're entitled to make. In public. In response to me on > > the > > > Net. Not shunting anything YOU don't like off into obscurity. > > > > > > Let them tell you that themselves. > > > > > > > > > > I am saying the freedom for them to say so should be extended to them. > > > You are robbing them of that God-given freedom of expression of > > > conscience. > > > > > > > I asked a polite question. > > > > > > > > Lighten up. > > > > > > > > > > Don't tell me to lighten up when you and Richard are perverting and > > > screening the newsgroup self-righteous, prudishly suppressing opinions > > > you don't like. > > > > > > Again, who are you two to make such decisions? Do you really imagine > God > > > has given you the ability to make such judgements? > > > > > > > Don't try to put a nazi mantle on my shoulders. > > > > > > > > > > It's already there, Rick. Wake up. > > > > > > > Rick Boatright > > > > co-moderator > > > > soc.religion.bahai > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Frederick Glaysher > > > Rochester, Michigan USA > > > > > > -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- > > > https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet > > > > > -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- > https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet > > ===================================================================== ====== > > WHAT TO DO IF YOU DID NOT REQUEST THIS POSTING: > ---------------------------------------------- > [This article has NOT yet been posted to Usenet. The reason we send this > email is to authenticate the author of articles we post.] > > If you did not request this article be posted to Usenet via the Deja News > service, that could mean someone using our service forged your address and > attempted to make this article appear as if you had posted it. The person > who did this used the IP address we log in the X-Originating-IP-Addr: > header field of the posting. This person may be able to be traced if you > contact the system administrator at their site. > > If you would like us to try to find out if someone forged your address, > please write to postnews@dejanews.com, include a statement like "I didn't > write this, please find out who did", and include this entire message. We > will try to help you as much as we can, but we are not a legal body and > other system administrators are not always cooperative, so we cannot > promise any results. We are sorry for any inconvenience. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Tue Feb 11 07:16:26 1997 BCC: @MOA.net Message-ID: <3300631A.180C@moa.net> Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 07:16:26 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dopost@grunt.dejanews.com Subject: please post References: <199702110941.DAA28643@grunt.dejanews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 8450 dopost@grunt.dejanews.com wrote: > > [A reply is required to post your article. (If you did not request this, > please do not reply to this email, instead read the instructions at the > bottom of this note, and send any questions to postnews@dejanews.com).] > > You have requested that the following article be posted to Usenet via the > Posting Service at Deja News. Your article is currently sitting in our > spool waiting for you to authorize it by following the following > instructions: > > TO POST YOUR ARTICLE PLEASE READ AND FOLLOW THESE INSTRUCTIONS: > --------------------------------------------------------------- > - You must reply to this email, including the ENTIRE text of this email in > the reply. (It's okay if your email program inserts characters in the left > hand column, e.g. '>', or whatever). The reply MUST be sent to: > dopost@postnews.dejanews.com > - You must change the Subject: header of your reply to contain the > words: "PLEASE POST" (capitalization doesn't matter). (Note: this is the > Subject header of the message you send to us, not the subject header of the > article you wish to have posted). > > [The following string must not be changed/modified/wrapped/truncated.] > TRANSID:314f70142dd5f4311c1e73204e619f63505ce8ec5192 > ===================================================================== ====== > From: @moa.net > Subject: Respone Re: Censored S.R.Bahai #10 > Newsgroups: news.groups > Message-Id: <855653900.28603@dejanews.com> > Reply-To: @moa.net > Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service > To: boatright@cjnetworks.com > References: <854889179.13648@dejanews.com> <855231267.29104@dejanews.com> <32FA096E.7CED@east.sun.com> <855352728.4063@dejanews.com> <5dgpbo$ifk@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> <855491017.390@dejanews.com> <01bc16c4$9a338500$3a9e34ce@rickboat> > X-Article-Creation-Date: Tue Feb 11 09:38:22 1997 GMT > X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.60 (ppp-pm01-dy-28.ouhub.moa.net) > X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) > > In article <01bc16c4$9a338500$3a9e34ce@rickboat>, > "Amanda Boayright" wrote: > > > > Wait a minute! > > > > This post I need to respond to. Frederick Glaysher submitted to the > > newsgroup a posting which, I thought might have been posted to the group in > > error. It had the tone of private email. So, I wrote him a _very_ polite > > note, which you have NOT seen, asking if he had posted in error, or if this > > was private email. > > It's there, I believe. I don't recall any other email. > > I specifically said that the original note was postable > > and I got back a hateful note saying that I was censoring him and to "Just > > post what I write" > > > > "Hateful note" is overdoing it. Furthermore, the context is one of > constant censorship as is demonstrated by the other messages here. > What about that context? Trying to ignore that and put it all on > "hateful" me? > > > I _did_ post what he wrote. > > Only after interfering.... > > It went to the newsgroup. No censorship of > > that message occured. Then, I responded with his demand to post with the > > note you see quoted below asking him to calm down, that I had no intent to > > censor his remarks, but was trying to provide a service by asking if he > > intended the post to be public. As is quoted below, that happens a good > > bit. I was trying to provide a SERVICE. > > > > This, quoted below then, is NOT a censored submission to the newsgroup. It > > is the second reply to a simple question. > > > > It's an example of how trivial the interference is on the part of the > nannies who run soc.religion.bahai.... > > > Rick Boatright > > co-moderator > > soc.religion.bahai > > > > @moa.net wrote in article <855491017.390@dejanews.com>... > > > Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 06:47:54 -0500 > > > From: FG <@moa.net> > > > X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) > > > MIME-Version: 1.0 > > > To: boatright@cjnetworks.com > > > CC: @MOA.net > > > Subject: Re: The Integrity of Bahai Marriage (revised) > > > References: <199611181657.KAA17797@topeka.cjnetworks.com> > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 > > > > > > Rick Boatright wrote: > > > > > > > > And in your internal model, what is the difference between a > > > > moderator and a censor? > > > > > > See previous message to you. > > > > > > I asked a polite question. Did you intend > > > > to post this? > > > > > > I sent it to the newsgroup, didn't I? > > > > > > Lots of people post things they didn't intend to, and > > > > we catch a lot of those. > > > > > > In such cases, you'd be properly assisting discussion. > > > > > > They are generally greatful. I didn't > > > > complain that you characterize Baha'i women as bloodless. > > > > > > Why should you? What business is it of yours? I'm not writing to you, > > > nor do I want to. Yet here I am stuck in a non-productive task dealing > > > with you and Richard.... > > > > > > I probebly > > > > should. > > > > > > Why should you. Who the hell are you? > > > > > > I didn't complain that your comment was bigoted and > > > > offensive to the vast majority of sexually active and spirited Baha'i > > > > women, though I probebly should. > > > > > > A complaint you're entitled to make. In public. In response to me on > > the > > > Net. Not shunting anything YOU don't like off into obscurity. > > > > > > Let them tell you that themselves. > > > > > > > > > > I am saying the freedom for them to say so should be extended to them. > > > You are robbing them of that God-given freedom of expression of > > > conscience. > > > > > > > I asked a polite question. > > > > > > > > Lighten up. > > > > > > > > > > Don't tell me to lighten up when you and Richard are perverting and > > > screening the newsgroup self-righteous, prudishly suppressing opinions > > > you don't like. > > > > > > Again, who are you two to make such decisions? Do you really imagine > God > > > has given you the ability to make such judgements? > > > > > > > Don't try to put a nazi mantle on my shoulders. > > > > > > > > > > It's already there, Rick. Wake up. > > > > > > > Rick Boatright > > > > co-moderator > > > > soc.religion.bahai > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Frederick Glaysher > > > Rochester, Michigan USA > > > > > > -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- > > > https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet > > > > > -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- > https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet > > ===================================================================== ====== > > WHAT TO DO IF YOU DID NOT REQUEST THIS POSTING: > ---------------------------------------------- > [This article has NOT yet been posted to Usenet. The reason we send this > email is to authenticate the author of articles we post.] > > If you did not request this article be posted to Usenet via the Deja News > service, that could mean someone using our service forged your address and > attempted to make this article appear as if you had posted it. The person > who did this used the IP address we log in the X-Originating-IP-Addr: > header field of the posting. This person may be able to be traced if you > contact the system administrator at their site. > > If you would like us to try to find out if someone forged your address, > please write to postnews@dejanews.com, include a statement like "I didn't > write this, please find out who did", and include this entire message. We > will try to help you as much as we can, but we are not a legal body and > other system administrators are not always cooperative, so we cannot > promise any results. We are sorry for any inconvenience. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Tue Feb 11 07:17:02 1997 BCC: @MOA.net Message-ID: <3300633E.123@moa.net> Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 07:17:02 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dopost@grunt.dejanews.com Subject: please post References: <199702110951.DAA28773@grunt.dejanews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 8873 dopost@grunt.dejanews.com wrote: > > [A reply is required to post your article. (If you did not request this, > please do not reply to this email, instead read the instructions at the > bottom of this note, and send any questions to postnews@dejanews.com).] > > You have requested that the following article be posted to Usenet via the > Posting Service at Deja News. Your article is currently sitting in our > spool waiting for you to authorize it by following the following > instructions: > > TO POST YOUR ARTICLE PLEASE READ AND FOLLOW THESE INSTRUCTIONS: > --------------------------------------------------------------- > - You must reply to this email, including the ENTIRE text of this email in > the reply. (It's okay if your email program inserts characters in the left > hand column, e.g. '>', or whatever). The reply MUST be sent to: > dopost@postnews.dejanews.com > - You must change the Subject: header of your reply to contain the > words: "PLEASE POST" (capitalization doesn't matter). (Note: this is the > Subject header of the message you send to us, not the subject header of the > article you wish to have posted). > > [The following string must not be changed/modified/wrapped/truncated.] > TRANSID:e13f40941dc53461e0e3a9200c9b4324318d976941cd > ===================================================================== ====== > From: @moa.net > Subject: Re: 2nd RFD: moderate talk.origins > Newsgroups: news.groups > Message-Id: <855654697.28753@dejanews.com> > Reply-To: @moa.net > Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service > To: joe@sfbooks.com,rra@cs.stanford.edu > References: <5d3pu9$d4g$2@news.nyu.edu> <5d6u2o$1cd@news-central.tiac.net> <5dcaql$ibk@orm.southern.co.nz> <5dd3qi$vn7$5@news.nyu.edu> > X-Article-Creation-Date: Tue Feb 11 09:51:39 1997 GMT > X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.60 (ppp-pm01-dy-28.ouhub.moa.net) > X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) > > In article , > joe@sfbooks.com (Joe Bernstein) wrote: > > > > In article , Russ Allbery > > wrote: > > > > >In news.groups, Joe Bernstein writes: > > > > I expect bullheaded proponents in the future who can't be talked out of it. > > Say, for instance, the situation in soc.religion.bahai is actually as bad > > as the proponent of talk.religion.bahai claims it is (a doubtful prospect, > > in my view, but bear with me). > > Read the message posted by jgoldberg to news.groups. I appended a > copy of it.... > > Well, if I were that evil moderator, what > > I'd want to do after defeating the existing proposal is propose and pass a > > moderated talk.religion.bahai with me as moderator. > > Don't give him any ideas.... Read the twenty censored messages I've > posted to news.groups.... > > I wouldn't even have > > to be all *that* evil - some of the anti-trb talk is relatively mild but > > fits an action like that. > > It definitely does, and it seems to be growing because they want to > keep a stranglehold over all discussion. > > So I'd propose it as content-moderated, and it > > would just happen to give me control of the entire remaining Big 8 > > namespace on Bahai faith. > > > > Bingo! That's the name of the game. > > > I'm looking for a way in which news.groups can most credibly oppose that. > > Ideally, via precedent-derived rules such as the ones I gave. That's a lot > > to squeeze into "precedence". > > > > >If that isn't correct, please let me know what parts of it you disagree > > >with. > > > > Oh, you knew you could count on me... :-) > > > > >Given that, there seem to be two perspectives. One is to say that we > > >should separate out groups with content-independent moderation from the > > >completely unmoderated groups just in case, so that completely unmoderated > > >groups could remain as backup in case of those abuse situations. > > > > > > The purpose is more so that the precedent would be clear that you can't put > > content-moderated talk.religion.bahai in the place where an unmoderated one > > would go, than so as to provide for actual abusive moderators in the normal > > senses of those words. At least, if you're describing my view here (as I > > presume), then you missed significantly on this point. If you've someone > > else in mind... > > > > There's nothing "abusive" about content-moderated groups in talk.* except > > via a clear and explicable consensus about it from namespace hawks, after > > all. Namespace is just real estate, so to speak; we're the ones who have > > to say "There's a major earthquake fault through there, don't build > > anything fancy" or whatever. > > ------- > > > > ubject: > Re: Censorship on soc.religion.bahai > Date: > Sat, 08 Feb 1997 17:43:03 -0600 > From: > jgoldberg@megsinet.net (Jeffrey Goldberg) > To: > @moa.net > References: > 1 , 2 , 3 > > > Frederick Glaysher wrote: > > > > Jeffrey Goldberg wrote: > > > > > > Frederick Glaysher wrote: > > > > > > > > [Please reject or post this message.] > > > > > > > > Since a few people have requested examples of censorship on > > > > soc.religion.bahai, I've posted them to news.groups. The > > > > file CENSORED#1--S.R.B. is a 740k file. Unless you don't > > > > mind a long wait, you might want to avoid that one. The > > > > others are brief excerpts of 10k or so. > > > > > > > > Watch for the CFV and please vote YES for the creation of an > > > > unmoderated, uncensored forum: talk.religion.bahai > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Frederick Glaysher > > > > Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > > > > > > I refuse to post on soc.religion.bahai because of the arbitrary and > > > mean-spirited manner of censorship practiced by the moderators. The > > > discussion is so controlled that no self-respecting Baha'i or anyone > > > else should post there. I don't understand the newsgroup creation > > > process, but I support you in your quest for an unmoderated newsgroup. > > > > Thanks for having the courage to say so. Would you consider reposting > > this to news.groups so others can read it? Discussion about forming > > talk.religion.bahai is supposed to take place there, on > > soc.religion.bahai, > > or crossposted always to news.groups. > > > > It's very important that people hear srb is "arbitrary and > > mean-spirited" > > from someone other than myself. I can get sense many think so, but > > they're scared to state it..... You have too vote in a week or two for > > your opinion to count. Watch for the CFV (Call For Votes). > > > > I've posted about twenty messages on news.groups censored in the past > > too. > > > > -- > > Frederick Glaysher > > Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > > it has been posted. let me know when and how to vote. good luck. > > -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- > https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet > > ===================================================================== ====== > > WHAT TO DO IF YOU DID NOT REQUEST THIS POSTING: > ---------------------------------------------- > [This article has NOT yet been posted to Usenet. The reason we send this > email is to authenticate the author of articles we post.] > > If you did not request this article be posted to Usenet via the Deja News > service, that could mean someone using our service forged your address and > attempted to make this article appear as if you had posted it. The person > who did this used the IP address we log in the X-Originating-IP-Addr: > header field of the posting. This person may be able to be traced if you > contact the system administrator at their site. > > If you would like us to try to find out if someone forged your address, > please write to postnews@dejanews.com, include a statement like "I didn't > write this, please find out who did", and include this entire message. We > will try to help you as much as we can, but we are not a legal body and > other system administrators are not always cooperative, so we cannot > promise any results. We are sorry for any inconvenience. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Tue Feb 11 07:17:50 1997 BCC: @MOA.net Message-ID: <3300636E.2DC7@moa.net> Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 07:17:50 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dopost@grunt.dejanews.com Subject: please post References: <199702110959.DAA28859@grunt.dejanews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 8448 dopost@grunt.dejanews.com wrote: > > [A reply is required to post your article. (If you did not request this, > please do not reply to this email, instead read the instructions at the > bottom of this note, and send any questions to postnews@dejanews.com).] > > You have requested that the following article be posted to Usenet via the > Posting Service at Deja News. Your article is currently sitting in our > spool waiting for you to authorize it by following the following > instructions: > > TO POST YOUR ARTICLE PLEASE READ AND FOLLOW THESE INSTRUCTIONS: > --------------------------------------------------------------- > - You must reply to this email, including the ENTIRE text of this email in > the reply. (It's okay if your email program inserts characters in the left > hand column, e.g. '>', or whatever). The reply MUST be sent to: > dopost@postnews.dejanews.com > - You must change the Subject: header of your reply to contain the > words: "PLEASE POST" (capitalization doesn't matter). (Note: this is the > Subject header of the message you send to us, not the subject header of the > article you wish to have posted). > > [The following string must not be changed/modified/wrapped/truncated.] > TRANSID:f14f2014cda5443123fe765201b33e0717376a6a2218 > ===================================================================== ====== > From: @moa.net > Subject: Response Re: Censored S.R.Bahai #6 > Newsgroups: news.groups > Message-Id: <855655166.28844@dejanews.com> > Reply-To: @moa.net > Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service > To: amanda@cjnetworks.com > References: <855490325.235@dejanews.com> <01bc16c5$4d14abe0$3a9e34ce@rickboat> > X-Article-Creation-Date: Tue Feb 11 09:59:28 1997 GMT > X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.60 (ppp-pm01-dy-28.ouhub.moa.net) > X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) > > In article <01bc16c5$4d14abe0$3a9e34ce@rickboat>, > "Amanda Boayright" wrote: > > > > Please note: THE ORIGINAL MESSAGE WAS POSTED TO THE NEWSGROUP! > > > > Again, only after your interference. And is this the only > message you're going to nick pick about while ignoring all > the other blatant examples of CENSORSHIP? > > > Is asking if somthing was submitted by mistake now added to the definition > > of censorship? > > > > If so, I admit to my guilt. Mea Culpa. > > > > Rick Boatright > > > > @moa.net wrote in article <855490325.235@dejanews.com>... > > > From: "Rick Boatright" > > > Organization: Topeka Business Computers > > > To: Frederick Glaysher <@MOA.net> > > > Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 10:13:19 -0600 > > > Subject: Re: The Integrity of Bahai Marriage (revised) > > > Reply-to: boatright@cjnetworks.com > > > CC: srb-mods@bcca.org > > > Priority: normal > > > X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.31) > > > X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 > > > > > > Dear Frederick, > > > > > > A real, true _question_. Did you mean for this to go out to the > > > newsgroup? The humor is apparent, the advice is probebly reasonable, > > Who asked you for your judgement of my "advice"? Humorous or not. > > > > but I am forced to wonder if you really ment the post to go to the > > > newsgroup. It seems too susceptable to te kind of mis-interpretation > > > that gets rwars started..... I therefore suspect that you ment > > > this for private email. > > > > > > Rick Boatright > > > co-moderator > > > soc.religion.bahai > > > > > > > To: soc-religion-bahai@uunet.uu.net > > > > From: FG <@MOA.net> > > > > Subject: Re: The Integrity of Bahai Marriage (revised) > > > > Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 09:45:16 -0500 > > > > Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A. > > > > To: karl1971@aol.com > > > > Cc: @MOA.net > > > > > > > karl1971@aol.com wrote: > > > > > [clip] > > > > > > > > > The believers of Baha'u'llah have a Faith of integrity. Unlike the > > > world > > > > > that's falling apart around us, the ones who who believe in > > > Baha'u'llah > > > > > make love, not war. > > > > > > > > > > One of the most important ways we do this is by fulfilling a > > > legitimate > > > > > quest to marry, always confident each and everyone of us has the > > > potential > > > > > to be a partner of a beautiful spiritual match made in heaven. > > > > > > > > > > In a Bahai Marriage: > > > > > > > > > > We seek nothing less than a partner with patience, who believes in > > > dreams, > > > > > justice, miracles, and aspirations who will spend every one of his or > > > her > > > > > most physically intimate moments with one and only one for the rest > > of > > > his > > > > > or her life. > > > > > > > > > > We seek nothing less than a world where every father and mother is > > > > > completely satisfied with who they have for a son-in-law or > > > > > daughter-in-law. > > > > > > > > > > We seek nothing less than a fellow beauty of the opposite sex who > > > respects > > > > > his or her body and doesn't smoke dope or drink booze or have some > > > > > loathsome addiction. > > > > > > > > > > We seek nothing less than someone who always had high standards of > > > > > justice, integrity, dignity, and morality, and has always been > > > sensitive > > > > > and intelligent, even having been raised among sick people and having > > > gone > > > > > through hell in a handbasket. > > > > > > > > > > We seek nothing less than beautiful love making experiences with > > > standards > > > > > of integrity that free us from the shackles of a promiscuous world. > > > > > > > > > > We seek nothing less than a world full of pairs of men and women of > > > good > > > > > taste who legitimately receive and satisfy each other's desires for > > > > > sensual affection. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- sincerely > > > > > > > > > > -- Karl > > > > > > > > > > > > Karl, man to man, you need to get married! Let me give you a little > > > unsolicited > > > > advice, if you don't mind. Don't choose one of these half-dead Baha'i > > > women, the > > > > self-righteous zealot type. Find a real woman with some blood flowing > > > through her > > > > veins.... > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Frederick Glaysher > > > > Rochester, Michigan USA > > > > > > > > > > -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- > > > https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet > > > > > -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- > https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet > > ===================================================================== ====== > > WHAT TO DO IF YOU DID NOT REQUEST THIS POSTING: > ---------------------------------------------- > [This article has NOT yet been posted to Usenet. The reason we send this > email is to authenticate the author of articles we post.] > > If you did not request this article be posted to Usenet via the Deja News > service, that could mean someone using our service forged your address and > attempted to make this article appear as if you had posted it. The person > who did this used the IP address we log in the X-Originating-IP-Addr: > header field of the posting. This person may be able to be traced if you > contact the system administrator at their site. > > If you would like us to try to find out if someone forged your address, > please write to postnews@dejanews.com, include a statement like "I didn't > write this, please find out who did", and include this entire message. We > will try to help you as much as we can, but we are not a legal body and > other system administrators are not always cooperative, so we cannot > promise any results. We are sorry for any inconvenience. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Tue Feb 11 07:18:14 1997 BCC: @MOA.net Message-ID: <33006386.2257@moa.net> Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 07:18:14 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dopost@grunt.dejanews.com Subject: please post References: <199702111019.EAA29110@grunt.dejanews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 6549 dopost@grunt.dejanews.com wrote: > > [A reply is required to post your article. (If you did not request this, > please do not reply to this email, instead read the instructions at the > bottom of this note, and send any questions to postnews@dejanews.com).] > > You have requested that the following article be posted to Usenet via the > Posting Service at Deja News. Your article is currently sitting in our > spool waiting for you to authorize it by following the following > instructions: > > TO POST YOUR ARTICLE PLEASE READ AND FOLLOW THESE INSTRUCTIONS: > --------------------------------------------------------------- > - You must reply to this email, including the ENTIRE text of this email in > the reply. (It's okay if your email program inserts characters in the left > hand column, e.g. '>', or whatever). The reply MUST be sent to: > dopost@postnews.dejanews.com > - You must change the Subject: header of your reply to contain the > words: "PLEASE POST" (capitalization doesn't matter). (Note: this is the > Subject header of the message you send to us, not the subject header of the > article you wish to have posted). > > [The following string must not be changed/modified/wrapped/truncated.] > TRANSID:610f30945da57431fc6dd4768b534d15dc4cd7e5527f > ===================================================================== ====== > From: @moa.net > Subject: Response to Jim Riley > Newsgroups: news.groups > Message-Id: <855656331.29092@dejanews.com> > Reply-To: @moa.net > Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service > To: jkramer1@swarthmore.edu,jimrtex@pipeline.com > References: <854889179.13648@dejanews.com> <5d4frt$re2@cnn.Princeton.EDU> <1o81ZMAlGE+yEwFL@fragrant.demon.co.uk> <5ddlmc$jt0@cnn.Princeton.EDU> <3356d262.855794049@news.pipeline.com> > X-Article-Creation-Date: Tue Feb 11 10:18:51 1997 GMT > X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.60 (ppp-pm01-dy-28.ouhub.moa.net) > X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) > > In article <3356d262.855794049@news.pipeline.com>, > jimrtex@pipeline.com wrote: > > > > In article > > > > Joshua Kramer wrote: > > > > >Do you have technical or name-space conserns? > > > > The proponent was unable to participate in the discussion immediately > > after the posting of the RFD. > > That's not a problem. I was in touch with my group-mentor, Chris > Stone, and have responded to I believe every single posting about > talk.religion.bahai since Jan. 17th. > > After making a few unsubstantiated > > claims of censorship, the proponent has (6 Feb) filed the discussion > > questionaire with the UVV. It is questionable whether the proponent > > has participated in the RFD discussion in good faith. > > > > False. Further, I emailed the UVV early on for advice, and was > informed there was no problem. Anyone who wants evidence of my > participation need merely search the files on news.groups or > www.dejanews.com..... Evidence of censorship is also on news.groups, > more than twenty censored messages.... > > My, you seem to be determined to find some basis to discredit and > oppose the proposal for an uncensored newsgroup. Why? > > > There is already a group for the discussion by adherents of and > > those interested in the Bahai religion. > > If you want a censored one, there is. > > If there is indeed a problem > > with the moderation of soc.religion.bahai, this is the issue that > > should be addressed. Only if that is unresolvable should additional > > groups be considered. > > > > False. That would allow stranglehold control a self-righteous little > band of zealots who hide behind the word "moderators." Others have > posted to this effect on news.groups, while others are emailing me > but lacking sufficient courage to come out into the open.... > > > The proponent has also failed to demonstrate why the existing > > group talk.religion.misc is unsuitable for purposes of unmoderated > > > > False. Read the censored messages on news.groups and my many postings. > I suggest, given the rigidity of your tone and apparent position, that > nothing anyone could say would convince you otherwise. You're free > to choose a moderated newsgroup on the Bahai Faith if that's what you > despite hearing that many people believe it is heavily censored and > controlled by the self-appointed, unelected people in power. That's > your right, I guess. I don't try to take it away from you, as the > moderators routinely take them away from many people who attempt to > post there. > > I would like to ask though why does that kind of approach appeal to > you? > > > -- > > Jim Riley > > Frederick Glaysher > Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > > -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- > https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet > > ===================================================================== ====== > > WHAT TO DO IF YOU DID NOT REQUEST THIS POSTING: > ---------------------------------------------- > [This article has NOT yet been posted to Usenet. The reason we send this > email is to authenticate the author of articles we post.] > > If you did not request this article be posted to Usenet via the Deja News > service, that could mean someone using our service forged your address and > attempted to make this article appear as if you had posted it. The person > who did this used the IP address we log in the X-Originating-IP-Addr: > header field of the posting. This person may be able to be traced if you > contact the system administrator at their site. > > If you would like us to try to find out if someone forged your address, > please write to postnews@dejanews.com, include a statement like "I didn't > write this, please find out who did", and include this entire message. We > will try to help you as much as we can, but we are not a legal body and > other system administrators are not always cooperative, so we cannot > promise any results. We are sorry for any inconvenience. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Tue Feb 11 07:18:38 1997 BCC: @MOA.net Message-ID: <3300639E.7EA3@moa.net> Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 07:18:38 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dopost@grunt.dejanews.com Subject: please post References: <199702111034.EAA29371@grunt.dejanews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 8609 dopost@grunt.dejanews.com wrote: > > [A reply is required to post your article. (If you did not request this, > please do not reply to this email, instead read the instructions at the > bottom of this note, and send any questions to postnews@dejanews.com).] > > You have requested that the following article be posted to Usenet via the > Posting Service at Deja News. Your article is currently sitting in our > spool waiting for you to authorize it by following the following > instructions: > > TO POST YOUR ARTICLE PLEASE READ AND FOLLOW THESE INSTRUCTIONS: > --------------------------------------------------------------- > - You must reply to this email, including the ENTIRE text of this email in > the reply. (It's okay if your email program inserts characters in the left > hand column, e.g. '>', or whatever). The reply MUST be sent to: > dopost@postnews.dejanews.com > - You must change the Subject: header of your reply to contain the > words: "PLEASE POST" (capitalization doesn't matter). (Note: this is the > Subject header of the message you send to us, not the subject header of the > article you wish to have posted). > > [The following string must not be changed/modified/wrapped/truncated.] > TRANSID:617f0014cd25e4011a2aa989b35a399ac3a59099833b > ===================================================================== ====== > From: @moa.net > Subject: Response Re: talk.religion.bahai > Newsgroups: news.groups > Message-Id: <855657250.29363@dejanews.com> > Reply-To: @moa.net > Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service > To: math5ijf@math.canterbury.ac.az,jkramer1@swarthmore.edu > References: <854889179.13648@dejanews.com> <5dft41$f1u@cnn.Princeton.EDU> <5diflj$r99@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> <5dlmui$sph$1@cantuc.canterbury.ac.nz> <5dohqm$6vd$1@cantuc.canterbury.ac.nz> > X-Article-Creation-Date: Tue Feb 11 10:34:13 1997 GMT > X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.60 (ppp-pm01-dy-28.ouhub.moa.net) > X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) > > In article <5dohqm$6vd$1@cantuc.canterbury.ac.nz>, > math5ijf@math.canterbury.ac.nz (Isaac Freeman) wrote: > > > > In article , > jkramer1@swarthmore.edu (Joshua Kramer) writes: > > > You want to be a Bahai information distributer? You want to dispel things > > > you find disgusting? Vulgar? Rude? False? Sacreligious? > > > > False only. And I want to reply, not to dispel. > > > > > What do you think > > > about Scientology moderating alt.religion.scientology? Do you see the > > > parallel? Yes, they are a cult and you are not, but I don't find allowing > > > a religion to moderate all aspects of it's discussion be be appropriate. > > > > Neither do I. > > > > > Why do you object to the existance of an unmoderated forum? Be clear, here. > > > Yes or no will suffice. I'd appreciate a yes or no on every question > > > that followed, so I can decide how I'm going to vote. > > > > Certainly. > > > > > Do you think that the current situation as defined in the SRB charter > > > allows for any and all posting? (I'd say no, and that's a good thing.) > > > > No. > > > > > Is there a safety group? (I'd say yes, and it would be talk.religion.misc. > > > > Yes. > > > > > Do you read talk religion.misc? > > > > No. > > > > > Why would you read talk.religion.bahai if > > > you don't read talk.religion.misc? Isn't this just a redirection of posts?) > > > > Until recently I was unaware that there was any discussion of the Baha'i Faith > > there. But I appreciate the contradiction, and will skim talk.religion.misc > in > > future. > > > > There is no significant discussion of the Bahai Faith on > talk.religion.misc because it's too broad and global.... Most discussion > is Christian with a dabbling of other faiths occasionally thrown in. > This is a mere ploy of the tired old men in the kremlin, if you will.... > > > > > Is the safety group getting a bit to constrictive for the group? (I'd say > > > yes. I don't know why you CARE about a talk.religion.misc split) > > > > I'm not sure what you mean here. I would propose that any posts rejected from > > soc.religion.bahai could be posted in talk.religion.misc. If there was > clearly a > > large number of people discussing the Baha'i Faith in talk.religion.misc, then > it > > would seem sensible to create a talk.religion.bahai. > > > > > Therefore, isn't the reason you object to TRB because you feel that > > > all information about Bahai on the net should be controlled by Bahai? > > > (Note, I DON'T think moderation is censorship. It's never censorship. It's > > > morally reprehensible if and only if it is content based and no alternative > > > forums for discussion exist. That is the case here.) > > > > No. I object because I am not convinced that no alternative forums exist. > > > > > Will you vote no on talk.religion.bahai? > > > > No. > > Until recently I was undecided. Now I intend to abstain, given that my > > objections are not technical, and don't relate to the actual proposed name of > > the group. As you've pointed out, my objections are not relevant. > > > > > Will you recommend that others vote no on talk.religion.bahai in > > > public or private messages outside of news.groups? > > > > Certainly not. It is not my business to tell people how to vote on anything. > > In Baha'i elections we have maintain a secret ballot, accept no nominations > and > > allow no campaigning, in order that the individual should have no constraints > to > > voting on their own conscience. I try and approach any vote in the same > spirit. > > I have no right whatsoever to attempt to influence the votes of other people. > > > > I find this all doubtful.... We're not voting for a Bahai assembly.... > The powers in the kremlin were not elected or appointed either.... Let's > not forget that. I believe there may be a clear concerted attempt to > influence the vote taking place.... I don't believe that's paranoia. > Read the messages on news.groups and soc.religion.bahai.... > > > > > Careful here, I'm going to read everything you write on usenet. It's > > > really, really easy. > > > > No problem. If ever I find that I cannot stand by what I say in public, I > would > > be obligated to publicly retract it. > > > > I hope this makes my intentions and motives clear. I have only been trying to > > make up my own mind how I should vote. > > > > I URGE YOU THEN TO READ THE CENSORED MESSAGES ON NEWS.GROUPS. > > > Isaac Freeman > > Frederick Glaysher > Rochester HIlls, Michigan USA > > -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- > https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet > > ===================================================================== ====== > > WHAT TO DO IF YOU DID NOT REQUEST THIS POSTING: > ---------------------------------------------- > [This article has NOT yet been posted to Usenet. The reason we send this > email is to authenticate the author of articles we post.] > > If you did not request this article be posted to Usenet via the Deja News > service, that could mean someone using our service forged your address and > attempted to make this article appear as if you had posted it. The person > who did this used the IP address we log in the X-Originating-IP-Addr: > header field of the posting. This person may be able to be traced if you > contact the system administrator at their site. > > If you would like us to try to find out if someone forged your address, > please write to postnews@dejanews.com, include a statement like "I didn't > write this, please find out who did", and include this entire message. We > will try to help you as much as we can, but we are not a legal body and > other system administrators are not always cooperative, so we cannot > promise any results. We are sorry for any inconvenience. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Tue Feb 11 07:19:20 1997 BCC: @MOA.net Message-ID: <330063C8.7F76@moa.net> Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 07:19:20 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dopost@grunt.dejanews.com Subject: please post References: <199702111109.FAA29927@grunt.dejanews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 7042 dopost@grunt.dejanews.com wrote: > > [A reply is required to post your article. (If you did not request this, > please do not reply to this email, instead read the instructions at the > bottom of this note, and send any questions to postnews@dejanews.com).] > > You have requested that the following article be posted to Usenet via the > Posting Service at Deja News. Your article is currently sitting in our > spool waiting for you to authorize it by following the following > instructions: > > TO POST YOUR ARTICLE PLEASE READ AND FOLLOW THESE INSTRUCTIONS: > --------------------------------------------------------------- > - You must reply to this email, including the ENTIRE text of this email in > the reply. (It's okay if your email program inserts characters in the left > hand column, e.g. '>', or whatever). The reply MUST be sent to: > dopost@postnews.dejanews.com > - You must change the Subject: header of your reply to contain the > words: "PLEASE POST" (capitalization doesn't matter). (Note: this is the > Subject header of the message you send to us, not the subject header of the > article you wish to have posted). > > [The following string must not be changed/modified/wrapped/truncated.] > TRANSID:f14f10e4dd85f4017d15f013514c6f01233d26755a6a > ===================================================================== ====== > From: @moa.net > Subject: HELP! talk.religion.bahai Voting Procedures > Newsgroups: news.groups > Message-Id: <855659345.29919@dejanews.com> > Reply-To: @moa.net > Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service > To: group-advice@isc.org,cbstone@phoenix.princeton.edu,eagle@cyclone.Stanford.EDU > References: <5dn9l6$bks@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> > X-Article-Creation-Date: Tue Feb 11 11:09:06 1997 GMT > X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.60 (ppp-pm01-dy-28.ouhub.moa.net) > X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) > > I hope someone who understands all these rules and > regulations can help me and others figure it out > and protect the voting on talk.religion.bahai from > any kind of abuse..... > > It's all beyond me. > > -- > Frederick Glaysher > Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > ------ > > > In article <5dn9l6$bks@nnrp1.news.primenet.com>, > "Richard C. Detweiler" wrote: > > > > > > To the readership of soc.religion.bahai, > > > > More than likely in a short time a Call For Votes (CFV) for the proposed > > newsgroup talk.religion.bahai will be posted to this newsgroup. Anyone > > reading the newsgroup or having access to an e-mail account may vote in > > this election. If you are planning on voting in this election, I ask that > > you read this carefully. There are specific meanings in voting yes or no > > or abstaining in voting for newsgroup creation which differ from those > > most people expect. This note seeks to explain these differences so that > > you can vote properly. > > > > The whole process of newsgroup creation is provided as a means to ensure > > that there is sufficient interest in a proposed group and that when > > created, the newsgroup is created consistent with some norms maintained > > by those who volunteer to oversee Usenet. The Call For Votes is used to > > determine if this sufficient interest exists. Bearing this in mind, > > the Usenet votetakers ask that voters use the following definitions in > > deciding how to vote: > > > > First a newsgroup cannot be created with a simple majority of the votes cast. > > > For a newsgroup to be created, there must be AT LEAST 100 yes votes cast AND > > the total yes votes must be greater than 2/3 of all the votes cast for the > > newsgroup to be created. So, as you can see, the CFV is meant as an > > opportunity to gauge interest and the number of potential participants in > > the proposed newsgroups. > > > > With this in mind, it is expected that those voting will vote in the > > following manner: > > > > "Yes" - vote yes if you intend to take part in the newsgroup when formed. > > > > Abstain - Do not vote if you will not use the newsgroup OR you do not support > > its existance. > > > > "No" - vote no ONLY if you object to the newsgroup on grounds of improper > > adherrence to Usenet newsgroup conventions. In other words if you > > think the proposed charter is too vague or restrictive, if the > > name will violate the established norms of the Usenet heirarchy, etc. > > > > It is important to understand when deciding how to vote that the votetakers > > look for abuses in the process and can call an election into question if they > > feel a large number of no votes were voted to keep the newsgroup off of Usenet > > for reasons other than Usenet newsgroup conventions. > > > > If you feel the newsgroup should not be created for reasons other than > > its consistency with Usenet newsgroup conventions, the votetakers will > > expect you to ABSTAIN from the voting. > > > > I want to emphasize that I am not trying to influence anyone's vote in any > > way other than to ensure that the vote for talk.religion.bahai is done in > > an above board manner and in a way which will not cause the outcome to be > > doubted based on charges of ballot-stuffing or ignorance among those doing > > the voting. > > > > Thank you for your consideration, > > > > Dick Detweiler > > -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- > https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet > > ===================================================================== ====== > > WHAT TO DO IF YOU DID NOT REQUEST THIS POSTING: > ---------------------------------------------- > [This article has NOT yet been posted to Usenet. The reason we send this > email is to authenticate the author of articles we post.] > > If you did not request this article be posted to Usenet via the Deja News > service, that could mean someone using our service forged your address and > attempted to make this article appear as if you had posted it. The person > who did this used the IP address we log in the X-Originating-IP-Addr: > header field of the posting. This person may be able to be traced if you > contact the system administrator at their site. > > If you would like us to try to find out if someone forged your address, > please write to postnews@dejanews.com, include a statement like "I didn't > write this, please find out who did", and include this entire message. We > will try to help you as much as we can, but we are not a legal body and > other system administrators are not always cooperative, so we cannot > promise any results. We are sorry for any inconvenience. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Tue Feb 11 07:19:43 1997 BCC: @MOA.net Message-ID: <330063DF.30C5@moa.net> Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 07:19:43 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dopost@grunt.dejanews.com Subject: please post References: <199702111115.FAA30004@grunt.dejanews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 4433 dopost@grunt.dejanews.com wrote: > > [A reply is required to post your article. (If you did not request this, > please do not reply to this email, instead read the instructions at the > bottom of this note, and send any questions to postnews@dejanews.com).] > > You have requested that the following article be posted to Usenet via the > Posting Service at Deja News. Your article is currently sitting in our > spool waiting for you to authorize it by following the following > instructions: > > TO POST YOUR ARTICLE PLEASE READ AND FOLLOW THESE INSTRUCTIONS: > --------------------------------------------------------------- > - You must reply to this email, including the ENTIRE text of this email in > the reply. (It's okay if your email program inserts characters in the left > hand column, e.g. '>', or whatever). The reply MUST be sent to: > dopost@postnews.dejanews.com > - You must change the Subject: header of your reply to contain the > words: "PLEASE POST" (capitalization doesn't matter). (Note: this is the > Subject header of the message you send to us, not the subject header of the > article you wish to have posted). > > [The following string must not be changed/modified/wrapped/truncated.] > TRANSID:112fa0b44d855451b6e3a68c57d8541f43a25884402a > ===================================================================== ====== > From: @moa.net > Subject: Re: Censored S.R.Bahai #1 > Newsgroups: news.groups > Message-Id: <855659553.29980@dejanews.com> > Reply-To: @moa.net > Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service > To: pjh5u@avery.med.virginia.edu > References: <855489378.32756@dejanews.com> > X-Article-Creation-Date: Tue Feb 11 11:12:33 1997 GMT > X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.60 (ppp-pm01-dy-28.ouhub.moa.net) > X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) > > In article , > pjh5u@avery.med.Virginia.EDU (Peter Rabbit) wrote: > > > > In article <855489378.32756@dejanews.com>, <@moa.net> wrote: > > > > > >I refuse to edit my post in any way whatsoever. Your role as a moderator > > >is not > > >to be a fascist and stunt the serious exchange of ideas. Incidentally, > > >"editting" > > >is spelt with one "t." > > > > > > > The moderator of soc.religion.bahai asked you to remove OR > > reword a few comments that could be seen as potential flamebait, > > which in turn would cast you in a bad light. You call this > > censorship? > > You've taken out the context. Put it back in.... Keep > reading, and it makes sense. > > Further, who are they that they should worry about my being > "cast in a bad light"? Nannies? Old biddies? > > The context shows it's definitely censorship and constant > interference in the stream of communication. > > -- > Frederick Glaysher > Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > > -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- > https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet > > ===================================================================== ====== > > WHAT TO DO IF YOU DID NOT REQUEST THIS POSTING: > ---------------------------------------------- > [This article has NOT yet been posted to Usenet. The reason we send this > email is to authenticate the author of articles we post.] > > If you did not request this article be posted to Usenet via the Deja News > service, that could mean someone using our service forged your address and > attempted to make this article appear as if you had posted it. The person > who did this used the IP address we log in the X-Originating-IP-Addr: > header field of the posting. This person may be able to be traced if you > contact the system administrator at their site. > > If you would like us to try to find out if someone forged your address, > please write to postnews@dejanews.com, include a statement like "I didn't > write this, please find out who did", and include this entire message. We > will try to help you as much as we can, but we are not a legal body and > other system administrators are not always cooperative, so we cannot > promise any results. We are sorry for any inconvenience. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Tue Feb 11 07:20:08 1997 BCC: @MOA.net Message-ID: <330063F8.62B3@moa.net> Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 07:20:08 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dopost@grunt.dejanews.com Subject: please post References: <199702111132.FAA30212@grunt.dejanews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 6901 dopost@grunt.dejanews.com wrote: > > [A reply is required to post your article. (If you did not request this, > please do not reply to this email, instead read the instructions at the > bottom of this note, and send any questions to postnews@dejanews.com).] > > You have requested that the following article be posted to Usenet via the > Posting Service at Deja News. Your article is currently sitting in our > spool waiting for you to authorize it by following the following > instructions: > > TO POST YOUR ARTICLE PLEASE READ AND FOLLOW THESE INSTRUCTIONS: > --------------------------------------------------------------- > - You must reply to this email, including the ENTIRE text of this email in > the reply. (It's okay if your email program inserts characters in the left > hand column, e.g. '>', or whatever). The reply MUST be sent to: > dopost@postnews.dejanews.com > - You must change the Subject: header of your reply to contain the > words: "PLEASE POST" (capitalization doesn't matter). (Note: this is the > Subject header of the message you send to us, not the subject header of the > article you wish to have posted). > > [The following string must not be changed/modified/wrapped/truncated.] > TRANSID:71df10c47dd5e451d2e6fd91bbb2cc269ca4d1b1be69 > ===================================================================== ====== > From: @moa.net > Subject: Response to Re: Censorship on soc.religion.bahai > Newsgroups: news.groups > Message-Id: <855660705.30205@dejanews.com> > Reply-To: @moa.net > Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service > To: mmenge@dumaine.gac.edu > References: <5dnbu5$fio@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> <5dofus$8d2$1@lunen.gac.edu> > X-Article-Creation-Date: Tue Feb 11 11:31:46 1997 GMT > X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.60 (ppp-pm01-dy-28.ouhub.moa.net) > X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) > > In article <5dofus$8d2$1@lunen.gac.edu>, > mmenge@dumaine.gac.edu (Matthew P Menge) wrote: > > > > In article <5dnbu5$fio@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> Frederick Glaysher > A > > false response, IMO. Consultation is not oppression and manipulation, > > > nor should it be, I believe. You seem to suggest here that anyone in > > > favor of talk.religion.bahai may be "weak" in the Covenant or lacking > > > virtue. I suggest exactly the opposite may be the case. Further, to > > > bring the covenant into this strikes me as a very unseemly tactic. > > > > > > What are you afraid of? Why do you not trust the human soul, the > > > religious conscience God has given humankind? Has not Abdul-Baha > > > assured us that the spark of truth can only be revealed through the > > > clash of varying opinions? Surely he wouldn't approve of suppressing > > > anyone.... > > > > I think you seriously misunderstand the situation here. > > There is no problem with such a group existing, per se. In fact, > > such a discussion group might prove useful. The problem lies with such a > > group being sponsored by the Baha'i Faith. > > There is no statement in the RFD that implies in any way whatsoever that > talk.religion.bahai is "sponsored by the Bahai Faith." In same way, > soc.religion.bahai is not "sponsored by the Bahai Faith." No one voted > for the present crowd of censors there. No one appointed them. It is > not an official channel of the Bahai Faith. It is self-appointed, > self-elected group of self-righteous individuals who believe they know > what's best for the Bahai Faith and the future of humankind.... They > routinely suppress messages from many people of various opinions and > thinking. Is that what the Bahai Faith stands for? I assert it does > not.... > > > Perhaps, in my opinion, it might be a better idea to have a group > > like this that is both organized and moderated by non-Baha'is (and openly > > states this). > > I'm not opposed to a such a newsgroup by non-Bahais.... I happen to be > a Bahai, but I do not conceive of talk.religion.bahai as constituting > an official channel in any way.... Or delude myself into thinking it > is as many think of soc.religion.bahai.... Understand? Many think > srb is OFFICIAL! God has laid his blessing on them! Such naievte > makes abuse easier.... > > In this way, you could have such a free discussion group > > and at the same time minimize the misrepresentation of what the Baha'is > > stand for. > > > > By forming talk.religion.bahai, I hope to minimize the "misrepresentation > of what the Bahais stand for" that is being created by srb.... I'm > trying to create a forum in which we can all honestly discuss and > decide together what it stands for. I'm trying to create a space in > which all people, Bahais and non-Bahais, can sincerely communicate > their beliefs without a censor sifting out what HE or SHE thinks is > appropriate for other souls to hear.... > > > My opinions only, > > > > Matt > > That's all.... Why do so many seem to feel so terribly threatened > by the prospect of an uncensored newsgroup on the Bahai Faith? > > Sincerely, any other ideas out there? > > -- > Frederick Glaysher > Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > > -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- > https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet > > ===================================================================== ====== > > WHAT TO DO IF YOU DID NOT REQUEST THIS POSTING: > ---------------------------------------------- > [This article has NOT yet been posted to Usenet. The reason we send this > email is to authenticate the author of articles we post.] > > If you did not request this article be posted to Usenet via the Deja News > service, that could mean someone using our service forged your address and > attempted to make this article appear as if you had posted it. The person > who did this used the IP address we log in the X-Originating-IP-Addr: > header field of the posting. This person may be able to be traced if you > contact the system administrator at their site. > > If you would like us to try to find out if someone forged your address, > please write to postnews@dejanews.com, include a statement like "I didn't > write this, please find out who did", and include this entire message. We > will try to help you as much as we can, but we are not a legal body and > other system administrators are not always cooperative, so we cannot > promise any results. We are sorry for any inconvenience. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Tue Feb 11 07:20:30 1997 BCC: @MOA.net Message-ID: <3300640E.17C6@moa.net> Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 07:20:30 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dopost@grunt.dejanews.com Subject: please post References: <199702111152.FAA30445@grunt.dejanews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 5895 dopost@grunt.dejanews.com wrote: > > [A reply is required to post your article. (If you did not request this, > please do not reply to this email, instead read the instructions at the > bottom of this note, and send any questions to postnews@dejanews.com).] > > You have requested that the following article be posted to Usenet via the > Posting Service at Deja News. Your article is currently sitting in our > spool waiting for you to authorize it by following the following > instructions: > > TO POST YOUR ARTICLE PLEASE READ AND FOLLOW THESE INSTRUCTIONS: > --------------------------------------------------------------- > - You must reply to this email, including the ENTIRE text of this email in > the reply. (It's okay if your email program inserts characters in the left > hand column, e.g. '>', or whatever). The reply MUST be sent to: > dopost@postnews.dejanews.com > - You must change the Subject: header of your reply to contain the > words: "PLEASE POST" (capitalization doesn't matter). (Note: this is the > Subject header of the message you send to us, not the subject header of the > article you wish to have posted). > > [The following string must not be changed/modified/wrapped/truncated.] > TRANSID:113f50e45da51431d9eb9cc0fd1ee2c66f71591383d1 > ===================================================================== ====== > From: @moa.net > Subject: Response Re: Is it time for the CFV for talk.religion.bahai yet? > Newsgroups: news.groups > Message-Id: <855661898.30438@dejanews.com> > Reply-To: @moa.net > Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service > To: rreini@wwnet.com > References: <32FF80BC.1AD2@wwnet.com> > X-Article-Creation-Date: Tue Feb 11 11:51:39 1997 GMT > X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.60 (ppp-pm01-dy-28.ouhub.moa.net) > X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) > > In article <32FF80BC.1AD2@wwnet.com>, > Roger Reini wrote: > > > > How long has discussion been in progress on the RFD for > > talk.religion.bahai? IMHO, it already feels like it's been 21 days, > > which means the CFV should be coming up soon (correct?). > > > > A vote taker is in the process of being assigned. 30 days on the > 15th. We have 60 days actually. > > > Frankly, this discussion is starting to depress me and make me ill > > spiritually. > > You're suggestion is perhaps that anything that "depresses" you is > ipso facto in the wrong camp.... Perhaps it's the stress of hearing > things you don't like and not being accustomed to that situation > since the moderators here can't screen it out for you.... Consider > the ill feeling perhaps a purgation of accumulated delusions of > peace and security fobbed off by manipulators of public discussion.... > > We seem to be harping on the same points over and over with > > little progress. To me, that's a good indicator that it's time for the > > vote. > > > > It's getting there. Have you been open minded enough to read the > censored messages on news.group.... Others have asked for evidence > of censorship, and it's there. > > > And as we prepare for the vote, let us remember this prayer of the Bab: > > > > "Is there any remover of difficulties save God? Say, Praised be God! He > > is God! All are His servants, and all abide by His bidding." > > > > I'm not adverse to approaching the vote in a serious prayerful manner. > I am adverse to anyone casting their beliefs as those of God's. You > seem to wrap yourself here in the mantle of piety and the Bab's > party, if you will.... You don't have, nor do the moderators of > srb, a revealed text laying on hands.... I don't either. I have > only my conscience, and the belief that the Bahai Writings uphold > religious freedom of conscience. It is my human opinion that the > moderators, in a misguided way, so typical of the religious history > of all the great faiths, are squelching the free spirit God has > bountifully given humankind.... It would be beneficial to the > growth of the Bahai Faith to trust in what God has put in the human > creature and the dynamism that spirit can create.... > > > Roger (rreini@wwnet.com) > > https://www.wwnet.com/~rreini/ > > With all respect, > > Frederick Glaysher > Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > > -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- > https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet > > ===================================================================== ====== > > WHAT TO DO IF YOU DID NOT REQUEST THIS POSTING: > ---------------------------------------------- > [This article has NOT yet been posted to Usenet. The reason we send this > email is to authenticate the author of articles we post.] > > If you did not request this article be posted to Usenet via the Deja News > service, that could mean someone using our service forged your address and > attempted to make this article appear as if you had posted it. The person > who did this used the IP address we log in the X-Originating-IP-Addr: > header field of the posting. This person may be able to be traced if you > contact the system administrator at their site. > > If you would like us to try to find out if someone forged your address, > please write to postnews@dejanews.com, include a statement like "I didn't > write this, please find out who did", and include this entire message. We > will try to help you as much as we can, but we are not a legal body and > other system administrators are not always cooperative, so we cannot > promise any results. We are sorry for any inconvenience. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Tue Feb 11 07:20:55 1997 BCC: @MOA.net Message-ID: <33006427.2AC@moa.net> Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 07:20:55 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dopost@grunt.dejanews.com Subject: please post References: <199702111202.GAA30545@grunt.dejanews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 6424 dopost@grunt.dejanews.com wrote: > > [A reply is required to post your article. (If you did not request this, > please do not reply to this email, instead read the instructions at the > bottom of this note, and send any questions to postnews@dejanews.com).] > > You have requested that the following article be posted to Usenet via the > Posting Service at Deja News. Your article is currently sitting in our > spool waiting for you to authorize it by following the following > instructions: > > TO POST YOUR ARTICLE PLEASE READ AND FOLLOW THESE INSTRUCTIONS: > --------------------------------------------------------------- > - You must reply to this email, including the ENTIRE text of this email in > the reply. (It's okay if your email program inserts characters in the left > hand column, e.g. '>', or whatever). The reply MUST be sent to: > dopost@postnews.dejanews.com > - You must change the Subject: header of your reply to contain the > words: "PLEASE POST" (capitalization doesn't matter). (Note: this is the > Subject header of the message you send to us, not the subject header of the > article you wish to have posted). > > [The following string must not be changed/modified/wrapped/truncated.] > TRANSID:114f30840de524110b80bd3bd0c339ace00474ea7f5c > ===================================================================== ====== > From: @moa.net > Subject: Response Re: RFD: Talk.Religion.Bahai > Newsgroups: news.groups > Message-Id: <855662506.30531@dejanews.com> > Reply-To: @moa.net > Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service > To: jkrobert@students.wisc.edu,32ff97f0.3b97@byu.edu > References: <854889179.13648@dejanews.com> <32F4EC46.5EB3@why.net> <854976466.18697@dejanews.com> <32F66B3F.2C7C@east.sun.com> <32FF97F0.3B97@byu.edu> > X-Article-Creation-Date: Tue Feb 11 12:01:47 1997 GMT > X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.60 (ppp-pm01-dy-28.ouhub.moa.net) > X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) > > In article , > jkrobert@students.wisc.edu (Jason Roberts) wrote: > > > > In article <32FF97F0.3B97@byu.edu>, Robert Craig Harman wrote: > > > > (snip) > > > > > Indeed, so far as I can see, most of the "rejected posts" are nothing > > > more than postings of his correspondence (somewhat extensive) about a > > > very few rejected postings. The correspondence shows a rather > > > petulant proponent who basically wants to get his way and some very > > > reasonable sounding moderators trying to tone him down from statements > > > which may be inflammatory. > > > > Please read the censored messages on news.groups, 1-19. > > > Actually, I am of the opinion that t.r.b will be a very useful group > > indeed. There is currently _no_ unmoderated forum solely for discussion of > > the bahai faith. I would like to see intelligent, reasoned discussion of > > this topic from people who have more than a passing knowledge of the > > faith, or a predujice against it for superficial reasons. I fear that this > > is not possible on t.r.m, and this is certainly not possible on s.r.b where > > the moderators are only bahais and are open about moderating according to > > bahai teachings. > > > > They have a pronounced bias and other people have posted to that effect. > Read jgolberg's posting to news.groups. > > > > I personally see no use for a t.r.b which would in essence boil down to > > > t.r.b.glaysher-rant, especially when t.r.m already exists. news.groups > > > are not created to satisfy the wants of individuals. I will be voting > > > "no". > > > > This I fear is the party line of s.r.b. > > > I hope you will reconsider this and abstain or vote yes, especially in > > light of the fact that you make such good use out of alt.religion.mormon, > > an unmoderated group. There are more of us than this one sorta-kooky guy > > who would like to see a forum for reasoned, balanced discussion of Bahaai > > issues. > > > > I feel chastened that you see me as a "sorta-kooky guy." I shall endeavor > to improve, despite the oppressive situation, which I fear brought the > worst out in me, indeed.... > > > -- > > Jason Roberts > > Sign Number 6 That H & R Block Have Gone Insane: > > Advise you to take your refund in giant stone coins from the Micronesian > > isle of Yap. > > -Letterman's New Book of Top Ten Lists and Wedding Dress Patterns for the > > Husky Bride > > I urge you to give an open-minded reading to the censored messages in > news.groups before deciding which way to vote.... > > Frederick Glaysher > Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > > -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- > https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet > > ===================================================================== ====== > > WHAT TO DO IF YOU DID NOT REQUEST THIS POSTING: > ---------------------------------------------- > [This article has NOT yet been posted to Usenet. The reason we send this > email is to authenticate the author of articles we post.] > > If you did not request this article be posted to Usenet via the Deja News > service, that could mean someone using our service forged your address and > attempted to make this article appear as if you had posted it. The person > who did this used the IP address we log in the X-Originating-IP-Addr: > header field of the posting. This person may be able to be traced if you > contact the system administrator at their site. > > If you would like us to try to find out if someone forged your address, > please write to postnews@dejanews.com, include a statement like "I didn't > write this, please find out who did", and include this entire message. We > will try to help you as much as we can, but we are not a legal body and > other system administrators are not always cooperative, so we cannot > promise any results. We are sorry for any inconvenience. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Tue Feb 11 08:02:24 1997 BCC: @MOA.net Message-ID: <33006DE0.238D@moa.net> Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 08:02:24 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dopost@grunt.dejanews.com Subject: please post References: <199702111221.GAA30966@grunt.dejanews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 1102 dopost@grunt.dejanews.com wrote: > > [Please do NOT reply to this email, for help write to: help@dejanews.com] > > This email is to confirm that we have successfully posted the article > described below to Usenet for you! > > Subject: Response Re: Is it time for the CFV for talk.religion.bahai yet? > Newsgroups: news.groups > Message-Id: <855661898.30438@dejanews.com> > TRANSID: 310f00c46d956471294b716e8c34beff2f33fab2be71 > > Please save this email. It contains information that will allow you to > cancel this article if you should need to do so in the future. > > HOW TO CANCEL THIS ARTICLE > -------------------------- > If you find that you wish to cancel this article in the future, please go > to this page at our site: > https://postnews.dejanews.com/post_cancel.xp > You will have to fill out the form there with the information above. > If you do not save this email, you will not be able to cancel this article. > > Thanks for using Deja News. > > [Email-Replied-From-Dopost] -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Tue Feb 11 08:02:42 1997 BCC: @MOA.net Message-ID: <33006DF2.5C63@moa.net> Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 08:02:42 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dopost@grunt.dejanews.com Subject: please post References: <199702111221.GAA30970@grunt.dejanews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 1075 dopost@grunt.dejanews.com wrote: > > [Please do NOT reply to this email, for help write to: help@dejanews.com] > > This email is to confirm that we have successfully posted the article > described below to Usenet for you! > > Subject: Response Re: RFD: Talk.Religion.Bahai > Newsgroups: news.groups > Message-Id: <855662506.30531@dejanews.com> > TRANSID: 310f00c46d956471294b716e8c34beff2113fab2e461 > > Please save this email. It contains information that will allow you to > cancel this article if you should need to do so in the future. > > HOW TO CANCEL THIS ARTICLE > -------------------------- > If you find that you wish to cancel this article in the future, please go > to this page at our site: > https://postnews.dejanews.com/post_cancel.xp > You will have to fill out the form there with the information above. > If you do not save this email, you will not be able to cancel this article. > > Thanks for using Deja News. > > [Email-Replied-From-Dopost] -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Tue Feb 11 08:03:01 1997 BCC: @MOA.net Message-ID: <33006E05.5EE5@moa.net> Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 08:03:01 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dopost@grunt.dejanews.com Subject: please post References: <199702111241.GAA31276@grunt.dejanews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 5046 dopost@grunt.dejanews.com wrote: > > [A reply is required to post your article. (If you did not request this, > please do not reply to this email, instead read the instructions at the > bottom of this note, and send any questions to postnews@dejanews.com).] > > You have requested that the following article be posted to Usenet via the > Posting Service at Deja News. Your article is currently sitting in our > spool waiting for you to authorize it by following the following > instructions: > > TO POST YOUR ARTICLE PLEASE READ AND FOLLOW THESE INSTRUCTIONS: > --------------------------------------------------------------- > - You must reply to this email, including the ENTIRE text of this email in > the reply. (It's okay if your email program inserts characters in the left > hand column, e.g. '>', or whatever). The reply MUST be sent to: > dopost@postnews.dejanews.com > - You must change the Subject: header of your reply to contain the > words: "PLEASE POST" (capitalization doesn't matter). (Note: this is the > Subject header of the message you send to us, not the subject header of the > article you wish to have posted). > > [The following string must not be changed/modified/wrapped/truncated.] > TRANSID:116fa0040db5f4c17d459055bc5462271a8de4fdb0a5 > ===================================================================== ====== > From: @moa.net > Subject: Re: Censorship on soc.religion.bahai > Newsgroups: news.groups,soc.religion.bahai > Message-Id: <855664850.31229@dejanews.com> > Reply-To: @moa.net > Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service > To: samin@vossough.softnet.co.uk > References: <"amxzC.A.nBG.8lA_y"@bounty> <5dnbqd$fco@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> <5do8df$aqp@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> > X-Article-Creation-Date: Tue Feb 11 12:40:50 1997 GMT > X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.60 (ppp-pm01-dy-28.ouhub.moa.net) > X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) > > In article <5do8df$aqp@nnrp1.news.primenet.com>, > Samin@Vossough.softnet.co.uk wrote: > > > > clip > > > > Frederick Glaysher <@moa.net> wrote: > > > > > > >[Please reject or post this message.] > > > > > > > > > >Watch for the CFV and please vote YES for the creation of an > > > >unmoderated, uncensored forum: talk.religion.bahai > > > > > > Should we as Baha'is be electioneering? > > This isn't a Bahai election. Usenet sets the rules for > newsgroup formation. I don't believe I'm doing anything > improper from a Bahai perspective. You suggest below > you're voting no and by implication others should too. > > > > I think the creation of an unmoderated group as being > > > counterproductive to the advancement of the Faith. > > > I will be voting NO. > > > > > Why do you think it would be counterproductive? I see > as conducive to the growth of the Faith. It's difficult > for me to imagine an atmosphere more stifling to growth > of the Faith than prevails at the moment.... The present > moderators were not elected or appointed by anyone or > any institution. We shouldn't lose sight of that. Yet > they making very important decisions that are influencing > discussion on the Faith in a counterproductive way, I > believe.... > > > > [ Please read the notes for voting in a CFV before deciding how to vote > > > -mod ] > > > > > -- > > Javid Vossough > > Nuneaton, England > > Javid@Vossough.softnet.co.uk > > Frederick Glaysher > Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > > -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- > https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet > > ===================================================================== ====== > > WHAT TO DO IF YOU DID NOT REQUEST THIS POSTING: > ---------------------------------------------- > [This article has NOT yet been posted to Usenet. The reason we send this > email is to authenticate the author of articles we post.] > > If you did not request this article be posted to Usenet via the Deja News > service, that could mean someone using our service forged your address and > attempted to make this article appear as if you had posted it. The person > who did this used the IP address we log in the X-Originating-IP-Addr: > header field of the posting. This person may be able to be traced if you > contact the system administrator at their site. > > If you would like us to try to find out if someone forged your address, > please write to postnews@dejanews.com, include a statement like "I didn't > write this, please find out who did", and include this entire message. We > will try to help you as much as we can, but we are not a legal body and > other system administrators are not always cooperative, so we cannot > promise any results. We are sorry for any inconvenience. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Tue Feb 11 15:02:11 1997 BCC: @MOA.net Message-ID: <3300D043.5601@moa.net> Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 15:02:11 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dopost@grunt.dejanews.com Subject: please post References: <199702111944.NAA13873@grunt.dejanews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 6148 dopost@grunt.dejanews.com wrote: > > [A reply is required to post your article. (If you did not request this, > please do not reply to this email, instead read the instructions at the > bottom of this note, and send any questions to postnews@dejanews.com).] > > You have requested that the following article be posted to Usenet via the > Posting Service at Deja News. Your article is currently sitting in our > spool waiting for you to authorize it by following the following > instructions: > > TO POST YOUR ARTICLE PLEASE READ AND FOLLOW THESE INSTRUCTIONS: > --------------------------------------------------------------- > - You must reply to this email, including the ENTIRE text of this email in > the reply. (It's okay if your email program inserts characters in the left > hand column, e.g. '>', or whatever). The reply MUST be sent to: > dopost@postnews.dejanews.com > - You must change the Subject: header of your reply to contain the > words: "PLEASE POST" (capitalization doesn't matter). (Note: this is the > Subject header of the message you send to us, not the subject header of the > article you wish to have posted). > > [The following string must not be changed/modified/wrapped/truncated.] > TRANSID:711f10845d356451ba1492532e6e98abfdfac1d8336a > ===================================================================== ====== > From: @moa.net > Subject: Response to jimrtex > Newsgroups: news.groups > Message-Id: <855690259.13843@dejanews.com> > Reply-To: @moa.net > Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service > To: jimrtex@pipeline.com > References: <854889179.13648@dejanews.com> <5d4frt$re2@cnn.Princeton.EDU> <1o81ZMAlGE+yEwFL@fragrant.demon.co.uk> <5ddlmc$jt0@cnn.Princeton.EDU> <3356d262.855794049@news.pipeline.com> > X-Article-Creation-Date: Tue Feb 11 19:44:20 1997 GMT > X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.37 (ppp-pm01-dy-5.ouhub.moa.net) > X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) > > First, my apologies if I've already responded to this post. > With over 140 messages now on talk.religion.bahai, it's > getting difficult to keep things straight. > > In article <3356d262.855794049@news.pipeline.com>, > jimrtex@pipeline.com wrote: > > > > In article > > > > Joshua Kramer wrote: > > > > >Do you have technical or name-space conserns? > > > > The proponent was unable to participate in the discussion immediately > > after the posting of the RFD. > > I was in contact with my group-mentor Christopher Stone and followed > his advice. Someone else at UVV has assured me it was no significant > problem. I have responded to almost every message that has been > posted about t.r.b. The few I haven't responded to directly seemed > to elicit redundant matters covered in other postings by me. > > After making a few unsubstantiated > > claims of censorship, the proponent has (6 Feb) filed the discussion > > questionaire with the UVV. It is questionable whether the proponent > > has participated in the RFD discussion in good faith. > > > > False on both counts. I have substantiated with requested examples > of censorship posted on news.groups. Anyone who seriously questions > my participation should do a search of messages on soc.religion.bahai, > news.groups, or www.dejanews.com regarding any key words you like. > As I mention above, there are now over 140 messages on news.groups > alone and the numbers growing. I'd guess at least 20 to 40 or more > on soc.religion.bahai too. > > > There is already a group for the discussion by adherents of and > > those interested in the Bahai religion. If there is indeed a problem > > with the moderation of soc.religion.bahai, this is the issue that > > should be addressed. Only if that is unresolvable should additional > > groups be considered. > > > > Makes no sense at in MHO. I'm not interested in reinventing the > wheel. I want a new wheel.... One that works. > > > The proponent has also failed to demonstrate why the existing > > group talk.religion.misc is unsuitable for purposes of unmoderated > > > > It's very charter is opposed to unmoderated discussion. Needed I > demonstrate that? Look it up. It's an open fact. Read my > censored messages on news.groups. > > > -- > > Jim Riley > > Frederick Glaysher > Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > > -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- > https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet > > ===================================================================== ====== > > WHAT TO DO IF YOU DID NOT REQUEST THIS POSTING: > ---------------------------------------------- > [This article has NOT yet been posted to Usenet. The reason we send this > email is to authenticate the author of articles we post.] > > If you did not request this article be posted to Usenet via the Deja News > service, that could mean someone using our service forged your address and > attempted to make this article appear as if you had posted it. The person > who did this used the IP address we log in the X-Originating-IP-Addr: > header field of the posting. This person may be able to be traced if you > contact the system administrator at their site. > > If you would like us to try to find out if someone forged your address, > please write to postnews@dejanews.com, include a statement like "I didn't > write this, please find out who did", and include this entire message. We > will try to help you as much as we can, but we are not a legal body and > other system administrators are not always cooperative, so we cannot > promise any results. We are sorry for any inconvenience. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Wed Feb 12 07:56:25 1997 BCC: @MOA.net Message-ID: <3301BDF9.1F06@moa.net> Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 07:56:25 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dopost@grunt.dejanews.com Subject: please post References: <199702121203.GAA10798@grunt.dejanews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 8299 dopost@grunt.dejanews.com wrote: > > [A reply is required to post your article. (If you did not request this, > please do not reply to this email, instead read the instructions at the > bottom of this note, and send any questions to postnews@dejanews.com).] > > You have requested that the following article be posted to Usenet via the > Posting Service at Deja News. Your article is currently sitting in our > spool waiting for you to authorize it by following the following > instructions: > > TO POST YOUR ARTICLE PLEASE READ AND FOLLOW THESE INSTRUCTIONS: > --------------------------------------------------------------- > - You must reply to this email, including the ENTIRE text of this email in > the reply. (It's okay if your email program inserts characters in the left > hand column, e.g. '>', or whatever). The reply MUST be sent to: > dopost@postnews.dejanews.com > - You must change the Subject: header of your reply to contain the > words: "PLEASE POST" (capitalization doesn't matter). (Note: this is the > Subject header of the message you send to us, not the subject header of the > article you wish to have posted). > > [The following string must not be changed/modified/wrapped/truncated.] > TRANSID:612f50d44d9504c1468521b452f9cec96d9f15e7f2a6 > ===================================================================== ====== > From: @moa.net > Subject: T.r.bahai Response to Isaac Freeman > Newsgroups: news.groups > Message-Id: <855748977.10789@dejanews.com> > Reply-To: @moa.net > Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service > References: <854889179.13648@dejanews.com> <5dft41$f1u@cnn.Princeton.EDU> <5diflj$r99@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> <5dlmui$sph$1@cantuc.canterbury.ac.nz> <5dohqm$6vd$1@cantuc.canterbury.ac.nz> <855657250.29363@dejanews.com> <5dr394$9uh$1@cantuc.canterbury.ac.nz> > X-Article-Creation-Date: Wed Feb 12 12:03:02 1997 GMT > X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.36 (ppp-pm01-dy-4.ouhub.moa.net) > X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) > > In article <5dr394$9uh$1@cantuc.canterbury.ac.nz>, > math5ijf@math.canterbury.ac.nz (Isaac Freeman) wrote: > > > > In article <855657250.29363@dejanews.com>, @moa.net writes: > > > > Until recently I was unaware that there was any discussion of the Baha'i > Faith > > > > there. > > I don't believe I ever wrote the above. I've notice for at least a year > that once in a while, rarely, but occasionally, a few Bahais post > something on soc.religion.misc.... This is irrelevant to forming > talk.religion.bahai.... People who keep bringing this up, in my opinion, > are in favor of the censorship that exist on soc.religion.bahai and > want to marginalize any other opinions would that manipulated forum. > > But I appreciate the contradiction, and will skim > talk.religion.misc > > > >in future. > > > > > I did not write the above. > > > > There is no significant discussion of the Bahai Faith on > > > talk.religion.misc > > > > This is certainly true, at least over the thousand-odd messages I skimmed > > yesterday. > > > > > because it's too broad and global.... Most discussion > > > is Christian with a dabbling of other faiths occasionally thrown in. > > > > That's my comment all right. > > > That's what people are posting at the moment. If people want to post anything > > about the Baha'i Faith there they can. I don't understand what you mean when > > you say that the group is "too broad and global". Surely being broad and > global > > is precisely the reason why it is a suitable place to post about the Baha'i > Faith. > > > > More specious reasoning.... > > > > > > Will you recommend that others vote no on talk.religion.bahai in > > > > > public or private messages outside of news.groups? > > > > > > > > Certainly not. It is not my business to tell people how to vote on > anything. > > > > In Baha'i elections we have maintain a secret ballot, accept no > nominations > > > > and allow no campaigning, in order that the individual should have no > > > > constraints to voting on their own conscience. I try and approach any > vote > > > > in the same spirit. > > > > I have no right whatsoever to attempt to influence the votes of other > people. > > > > > > Freeman, you are clearly attempting to influence others to vote no. Your > many comments prove that. > > > > > > I find this all doubtful.... We're not voting for a Bahai assembly.... > > > > No, which is why I used the phrase "same spirit", instead of "same method". > > My point being that I find the idea of a "vote-no" campaign to be contrary > > to my understanding of Baha'i principles. > > > > > The powers in the kremlin were not elected or appointed either.... Let's > > > not forget that. I believe there may be a clear concerted attempt to > > > influence the vote taking place.... I don't believe that's paranoia. > > > Read the messages on news.groups and soc.religion.bahai.... > > > > I have, and I see no sign of any campaign, one way or the other. I do see > > people discussing the various issues involved, which I consider healthy. > > > > > I URGE YOU THEN TO READ THE CENSORED MESSAGES ON NEWS.GROUPS. > > > > I have read carefully all of the "censored" messages that I've seen so far. > > I recall reading a couple of them on soc.religion.bahai (although I can't say > > whether the text was precisely the same), so I can't consider these censored. > > > > The text wasn't the same. It had been bowdlerized by the nannies.... > That's one or two out of 17 that never appeared on soc.religion.bahai... > > > In all cases, it appeared that the moderators had a valid point, usually that > > the message was abusive, or could be construed as abusive. I couldn't see any > > case in which the moderators prevented posting on the basis of the _content_ > of > > your messages, only on the tone in which they were presented. Further, they > > seemed to make every effort to encourage you to rewrite the messages so that > > the content remained intact. > > > > They permit abusive messages when it suits there fancy.... Read the > message I posted yesterday. Why should I rewrite my messages for > unelected and unappointed censors? You keep missing the point. > > > Isaac Freeman > > Frederick Glaysher > Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > > -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- > https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet > > ===================================================================== ====== > > WHAT TO DO IF YOU DID NOT REQUEST THIS POSTING: > ---------------------------------------------- > [This article has NOT yet been posted to Usenet. The reason we send this > email is to authenticate the author of articles we post.] > > If you did not request this article be posted to Usenet via the Deja News > service, that could mean someone using our service forged your address and > attempted to make this article appear as if you had posted it. The person > who did this used the IP address we log in the X-Originating-IP-Addr: > header field of the posting. This person may be able to be traced if you > contact the system administrator at their site. > > If you would like us to try to find out if someone forged your address, > please write to postnews@dejanews.com, include a statement like "I didn't > write this, please find out who did", and include this entire message. We > will try to help you as much as we can, but we are not a legal body and > other system administrators are not always cooperative, so we cannot > promise any results. We are sorry for any inconvenience. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Wed Feb 12 08:32:18 1997 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.36) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Wed, 12 Feb 1997 07:48:55 -0500 Message-ID: <3301BDF9.1F06@moa.net> Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 07:56:25 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dopost@grunt.dejanews.com Subject: please post References: <199702121203.GAA10798@grunt.dejanews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 8297 dopost@grunt.dejanews.com wrote: > > [A reply is required to post your article. (If you did not request this, > please do not reply to this email, instead read the instructions at the > bottom of this note, and send any questions to postnews@dejanews.com).] > > You have requested that the following article be posted to Usenet via the > Posting Service at Deja News. Your article is currently sitting in our > spool waiting for you to authorize it by following the following > instructions: > > TO POST YOUR ARTICLE PLEASE READ AND FOLLOW THESE INSTRUCTIONS: > --------------------------------------------------------------- > - You must reply to this email, including the ENTIRE text of this email in > the reply. (It's okay if your email program inserts characters in the left > hand column, e.g. '>', or whatever). The reply MUST be sent to: > dopost@postnews.dejanews.com > - You must change the Subject: header of your reply to contain the > words: "PLEASE POST" (capitalization doesn't matter). (Note: this is the > Subject header of the message you send to us, not the subject header of the > article you wish to have posted). > > [The following string must not be changed/modified/wrapped/truncated.] > TRANSID:612f50d44d9504c1468521b452f9cec96d9f15e7f2a6 > ===================================================================== ====== > From: @moa.net > Subject: T.r.bahai Response to Isaac Freeman > Newsgroups: news.groups > Message-Id: <855748977.10789@dejanews.com> > Reply-To: @moa.net > Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service > References: <854889179.13648@dejanews.com> <5dft41$f1u@cnn.Princeton.EDU> <5diflj$r99@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> <5dlmui$sph$1@cantuc.canterbury.ac.nz> <5dohqm$6vd$1@cantuc.canterbury.ac.nz> <855657250.29363@dejanews.com> <5dr394$9uh$1@cantuc.canterbury.ac.nz> > X-Article-Creation-Date: Wed Feb 12 12:03:02 1997 GMT > X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.36 (ppp-pm01-dy-4.ouhub.moa.net) > X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) > > In article <5dr394$9uh$1@cantuc.canterbury.ac.nz>, > math5ijf@math.canterbury.ac.nz (Isaac Freeman) wrote: > > > > In article <855657250.29363@dejanews.com>, @moa.net writes: > > > > Until recently I was unaware that there was any discussion of the Baha'i > Faith > > > > there. > > I don't believe I ever wrote the above. I've notice for at least a year > that once in a while, rarely, but occasionally, a few Bahais post > something on soc.religion.misc.... This is irrelevant to forming > talk.religion.bahai.... People who keep bringing this up, in my opinion, > are in favor of the censorship that exist on soc.religion.bahai and > want to marginalize any other opinions would that manipulated forum. > > But I appreciate the contradiction, and will skim > talk.religion.misc > > > >in future. > > > > > I did not write the above. > > > > There is no significant discussion of the Bahai Faith on > > > talk.religion.misc > > > > This is certainly true, at least over the thousand-odd messages I skimmed > > yesterday. > > > > > because it's too broad and global.... Most discussion > > > is Christian with a dabbling of other faiths occasionally thrown in. > > > > That's my comment all right. > > > That's what people are posting at the moment. If people want to post anything > > about the Baha'i Faith there they can. I don't understand what you mean when > > you say that the group is "too broad and global". Surely being broad and > global > > is precisely the reason why it is a suitable place to post about the Baha'i > Faith. > > > > More specious reasoning.... > > > > > > Will you recommend that others vote no on talk.religion.bahai in > > > > > public or private messages outside of news.groups? > > > > > > > > Certainly not. It is not my business to tell people how to vote on > anything. > > > > In Baha'i elections we have maintain a secret ballot, accept no > nominations > > > > and allow no campaigning, in order that the individual should have no > > > > constraints to voting on their own conscience. I try and approach any > vote > > > > in the same spirit. > > > > I have no right whatsoever to attempt to influence the votes of other > people. > > > > > > Freeman, you are clearly attempting to influence others to vote no. Your > many comments prove that. > > > > > > I find this all doubtful.... We're not voting for a Bahai assembly.... > > > > No, which is why I used the phrase "same spirit", instead of "same method". > > My point being that I find the idea of a "vote-no" campaign to be contrary > > to my understanding of Baha'i principles. > > > > > The powers in the kremlin were not elected or appointed either.... Let's > > > not forget that. I believe there may be a clear concerted attempt to > > > influence the vote taking place.... I don't believe that's paranoia. > > > Read the messages on news.groups and soc.religion.bahai.... > > > > I have, and I see no sign of any campaign, one way or the other. I do see > > people discussing the various issues involved, which I consider healthy. > > > > > I URGE YOU THEN TO READ THE CENSORED MESSAGES ON NEWS.GROUPS. > > > > I have read carefully all of the "censored" messages that I've seen so far. > > I recall reading a couple of them on soc.religion.bahai (although I can't say > > whether the text was precisely the same), so I can't consider these censored. > > > > The text wasn't the same. It had been bowdlerized by the nannies.... > That's one or two out of 17 that never appeared on soc.religion.bahai... > > > In all cases, it appeared that the moderators had a valid point, usually that > > the message was abusive, or could be construed as abusive. I couldn't see any > > case in which the moderators prevented posting on the basis of the _content_ > of > > your messages, only on the tone in which they were presented. Further, they > > seemed to make every effort to encourage you to rewrite the messages so that > > the content remained intact. > > > > They permit abusive messages when it suits there fancy.... Read the > message I posted yesterday. Why should I rewrite my messages for > unelected and unappointed censors? You keep missing the point. > > > Isaac Freeman > > Frederick Glaysher > Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > > -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- > https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet > > ===================================================================== ====== > > WHAT TO DO IF YOU DID NOT REQUEST THIS POSTING: > ---------------------------------------------- > [This article has NOT yet been posted to Usenet. The reason we send this > email is to authenticate the author of articles we post.] > > If you did not request this article be posted to Usenet via the Deja News > service, that could mean someone using our service forged your address and > attempted to make this article appear as if you had posted it. The person > who did this used the IP address we log in the X-Originating-IP-Addr: > header field of the posting. This person may be able to be traced if you > contact the system administrator at their site. > > If you would like us to try to find out if someone forged your address, > please write to postnews@dejanews.com, include a statement like "I didn't > write this, please find out who did", and include this entire message. We > will try to help you as much as we can, but we are not a legal body and > other system administrators are not always cooperative, so we cannot > promise any results. We are sorry for any inconvenience. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Thu Feb 13 08:36:28 1997 BCC: @MOA.net Message-ID: <330318DC.3108@moa.net> Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 08:36:28 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dopost@grunt.dejanews.com Subject: please post References: <199702131050.EAA28550@grunt.dejanews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 6268 dopost@grunt.dejanews.com wrote: > > [A reply is required to post your article. (If you did not request this, > please do not reply to this email, instead read the instructions at the > bottom of this note, and send any questions to postnews@dejanews.com).] > > You have requested that the following article be posted to Usenet via the > Posting Service at Deja News. Your article is currently sitting in our > spool waiting for you to authorize it by following the following > instructions: > > TO POST YOUR ARTICLE PLEASE READ AND FOLLOW THESE INSTRUCTIONS: > --------------------------------------------------------------- > - You must reply to this email, including the ENTIRE text of this email in > the reply. (It's okay if your email program inserts characters in the left > hand column, e.g. '>', or whatever). The reply MUST be sent to: > dopost@postnews.dejanews.com > - You must change the Subject: header of your reply to contain the > words: "PLEASE POST" (capitalization doesn't matter). (Note: this is the > Subject header of the message you send to us, not the subject header of the > article you wish to have posted). > > [The following string must not be changed/modified/wrapped/truncated.] > TRANSID:f14f20c47d951421dd3d16bd1e5ca6c7d713e82a9fcb > ===================================================================== ====== > From: @moa.net > Subject: Re: Response #2 Re: Rationale: talk.religion.bahai > Newsgroups: news.groups > Message-Id: <855831016.28542@dejanews.com> > Reply-To: @moa.net > Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service > To: rcmolden@students.wisc.edu > References: < > X-Article-Creation-Date: Thu Feb 13 10:50:16 1997 GMT > X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.56 (ppp-pm01-dy-24.ouhub.moa.net) > X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) > > Subject: > Re: Response #2 Re: Rationale: talk.religion.bahai > Date: > Thu, 13 Feb 1997 06:28:02 -0500 > From: > Frederick Glaysher <@moa.net> > To: > Robert Moldenhauer > References: > 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 > > > Robert Moldenhauer wrote: > > > > In article <5dqksf$h5r@nnrp1.news.primenet.com>, > > @moa.net says... > > > > >Honestly, I long to see it too, but definitely am convinced it will > > >never happen, especially given the way the Bahai Faith is today.... > > >I don't think it's our numbers, which seem to be dwindling.... > > >Definitely not growing.... > > > > > When I became a Baha'i in 1976 there were less than 4 million Baha'is > > now there are 6 million, I'd call that a fair growth rate... > > Thrue this growth is uneven, with a large growth in India and a > > decline in the UK. But the UK is an exception, most places have had a > > small to moderate growth in Baha'i population. > > > > Corroborated by whom? Becoming or calling someone a Bahai in India is > meaningless, if you know something about the culture.... People > routinely say they belong to fifteen different religions.... Cooked > numbers, I fear. > > > >Dreams, or delusions, I don't know which. Why would anyone want to > > >become a Bahai today? To be told to watch their tone, let alone > > their thoughts? > > > > Baha'is are not exempt from the problems of where they live. > > The usual rhetoric. > > In the > > US the problem is the strong individualism of Americans, in India it's > > the corruption. > > The problem? No. I think it's the blessing.... The Iranian tendency > to loathe the individuality God has given each being is one of the > reasons the Bahai Faith is not growing in my estimation. > > Just a quick example, in West Bengal an Auxillary > > Board Member used an armed guard to take a school away from a pioneer, > > that Board Member is still a Board Member. But the pioneer, who was > > allowed to leave with only the clothes on his back is still > > pioneering, still teacing the Faith. There is so much to this > > Revelation that one rotten apple can't spoil it. > > And which was the rotten apple? This example isn't quite lucid. > > > I have met hundreds of dear sweet Indian Baha'is, who work so hard for > > the success of the Faith, should I think of the one bad apple or the > > hundreds of sweet ones? > > > > > >> Roger (rreini@wwnet.com) > > >> https://www.wwnet.com/~rreini/ > > > > > >Alas, we human beings are all so tragically flawed. > > > > > >-- > > >Frederick Glaysher > > >Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > > > > > -- > Frederick Glaysher > Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > > -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- > https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet > > ===================================================================== ====== > > WHAT TO DO IF YOU DID NOT REQUEST THIS POSTING: > ---------------------------------------------- > [This article has NOT yet been posted to Usenet. The reason we send this > email is to authenticate the author of articles we post.] > > If you did not request this article be posted to Usenet via the Deja News > service, that could mean someone using our service forged your address and > attempted to make this article appear as if you had posted it. The person > who did this used the IP address we log in the X-Originating-IP-Addr: > header field of the posting. This person may be able to be traced if you > contact the system administrator at their site. > > If you would like us to try to find out if someone forged your address, > please write to postnews@dejanews.com, include a statement like "I didn't > write this, please find out who did", and include this entire message. We > will try to help you as much as we can, but we are not a legal body and > other system administrators are not always cooperative, so we cannot > promise any results. We are sorry for any inconvenience. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Thu Feb 13 08:38:18 1997 BCC: @MOA.net Message-ID: <3303194A.16F5@moa.net> Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 08:38:18 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dopost@grunt.dejanews.com Subject: please post References: <199702131158.FAA29542@grunt.dejanews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 4817 dopost@grunt.dejanews.com wrote: > > [A reply is required to post your article. (If you did not request this, > please do not reply to this email, instead read the instructions at the > bottom of this note, and send any questions to postnews@dejanews.com).] > > You have requested that the following article be posted to Usenet via the > Posting Service at Deja News. Your article is currently sitting in our > spool waiting for you to authorize it by following the following > instructions: > > TO POST YOUR ARTICLE PLEASE READ AND FOLLOW THESE INSTRUCTIONS: > --------------------------------------------------------------- > - You must reply to this email, including the ENTIRE text of this email in > the reply. (It's okay if your email program inserts characters in the left > hand column, e.g. '>', or whatever). The reply MUST be sent to: > dopost@postnews.dejanews.com > - You must change the Subject: header of your reply to contain the > words: "PLEASE POST" (capitalization doesn't matter). (Note: this is the > Subject header of the message you send to us, not the subject header of the > article you wish to have posted). > > [The following string must not be changed/modified/wrapped/truncated.] > TRANSID:514f60844d9544d1586280f4e0866aaa737f6d98ba40 > ===================================================================== ====== > From: @moa.net > Subject: sr.bahai Censored: Maneck#2 > Newsgroups: news.groups > Message-Id: <855835087.29534@dejanews.com> > Reply-To: @moa.net > Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service > To: smaneck@berry.edu,srb-mods@bcca.org > References: <5dn9fe$bc7@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> <5dskcs$dqa@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> > X-Article-Creation-Date: Thu Feb 13 11:58:07 1997 GMT > X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.35 (ppp-pm01-dy-3.ouhub.moa.net) > X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) > > > > > > Subject: > Re: And others too.... > Date: > Sat, 8 Feb 1997 17:47:53 EST > From: > "Susan Maneck" > Organization: > Berry College > To: > Frederick Glaysher <@moa.net> > > > Okay. Well I'm going to see if I can't work things out with the > moderators first. If not I'll send it. I know a number of postings > that get censored but usually I find the reasons valid. > > SO CENSORSHIP IS OKAY IN THE OPINION OF THE ENLIGHTENED > INTELLECTUAL, SUSAN MANECK, HUH? > > John Haukness > likes to accuse people of being closet CB's and the moderators won't > permit that. CB's can't challenge the provisions of the Covenant. > Steve and Juan can name names and accuse the Administration of > corruption. Everytime the moderators sent my message back I could > live with their decision. This time it seems like a clear effort to > withold information, so I am determined to see that it gets out. > > THIS TIME? EVERY TIME! NOW IT'S NOT THIS TIME? WHAT ABOUT > NEXT TIME? OOOHHHH, THERE WILL NEVER BE A NEXT TIME, UH HUH.... > NOW THERE'S NO REASON TO SEE IT GET OUT. STEVE'S MESSAGE IS > GOOD ENOUGH.... > > SHAME.... ON BOTH SIDES.... ALAS, ON ALL.... > > Susan > > FREDERICK GLAYSHER > ROCHESTER HILLS, MICHIGAN USA > > -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- > https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet > > ===================================================================== ====== > > WHAT TO DO IF YOU DID NOT REQUEST THIS POSTING: > ---------------------------------------------- > [This article has NOT yet been posted to Usenet. The reason we send this > email is to authenticate the author of articles we post.] > > If you did not request this article be posted to Usenet via the Deja News > service, that could mean someone using our service forged your address and > attempted to make this article appear as if you had posted it. The person > who did this used the IP address we log in the X-Originating-IP-Addr: > header field of the posting. This person may be able to be traced if you > contact the system administrator at their site. > > If you would like us to try to find out if someone forged your address, > please write to postnews@dejanews.com, include a statement like "I didn't > write this, please find out who did", and include this entire message. We > will try to help you as much as we can, but we are not a legal body and > other system administrators are not always cooperative, so we cannot > promise any results. We are sorry for any inconvenience. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Thu Feb 13 08:38:54 1997 BCC: @MOA.net Message-ID: <3303196E.7440@moa.net> Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 08:38:54 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dopost@grunt.dejanews.com Subject: please post References: <199702131206.GAA29714@grunt.dejanews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 4858 dopost@grunt.dejanews.com wrote: > > [A reply is required to post your article. (If you did not request this, > please do not reply to this email, instead read the instructions at the > bottom of this note, and send any questions to postnews@dejanews.com).] > > You have requested that the following article be posted to Usenet via the > Posting Service at Deja News. Your article is currently sitting in our > spool waiting for you to authorize it by following the following > instructions: > > TO POST YOUR ARTICLE PLEASE READ AND FOLLOW THESE INSTRUCTIONS: > --------------------------------------------------------------- > - You must reply to this email, including the ENTIRE text of this email in > the reply. (It's okay if your email program inserts characters in the left > hand column, e.g. '>', or whatever). The reply MUST be sent to: > dopost@postnews.dejanews.com > - You must change the Subject: header of your reply to contain the > words: "PLEASE POST" (capitalization doesn't matter). (Note: this is the > Subject header of the message you send to us, not the subject header of the > article you wish to have posted). > > [The following string must not be changed/modified/wrapped/truncated.] > TRANSID:214f70e44d357471988af13f5b345081d4ddb82fb44f > ===================================================================== ====== > From: @moa.net > Subject: T.r.Bahai: "lack of need" > Newsgroups: news.groups > Message-Id: <855835589.29698@dejanews.com> > Reply-To: @moa.net > Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service > To: paris@byu.edu > References: <854889179.13648@dejanews.com> <32F4EC46.5EB3@why.net> <854976466.18697@dejanews.com> <32F66B3F.2C7C@east.sun.com> <32FF97F0.3B97@byu.edu> <3301FF8D.5EBD@byu.edu> > X-Article-Creation-Date: Thu Feb 13 12:06:29 1997 GMT > X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.35 (ppp-pm01-dy-3.ouhub.moa.net) > X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) > > In article <3301FF8D.5EBD@byu.edu>, > Robert Craig Harman wrote: > > > > Emma Pease wrote: > > > > > > This group is unlikely to pass unless you and others make Glaysher a > > > martyr and so make people vote 'yes' to conteract the political 'no' > > > voting. > > I'd prefer stopping just short of that, thank you just the same.... > I don't think much of the martyr mentality. If you're not going to > use it, the only ethical thing to do is to abstain. See the other > postings now along these lines. > > > This isn't a question of "political" no-voting, but a lack of > > demonstrated need. > > > > If you'd read the messages on news.groups and elsewhere, I believe > there's an overwhelmingly demonstrated need for a newsgroup that > is uncensored and unmanipulated by anyone, inside or outside, the > Bahai Faith. > > Do you approve of coercing others' consciences? > > > -- > > Robert Craig Harman En France, appelez 01 39 76 68 84 pour > > BYU Chemical Engineering recevoir un Livre de Mormon gratuit... > > Master's Candidate > > LDS France Paris Mission https://www.et.byu.edu/~harmanr/mission.html > > Frederick Glaysher > Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > > -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- > https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet > > ===================================================================== ====== > > WHAT TO DO IF YOU DID NOT REQUEST THIS POSTING: > ---------------------------------------------- > [This article has NOT yet been posted to Usenet. The reason we send this > email is to authenticate the author of articles we post.] > > If you did not request this article be posted to Usenet via the Deja News > service, that could mean someone using our service forged your address and > attempted to make this article appear as if you had posted it. The person > who did this used the IP address we log in the X-Originating-IP-Addr: > header field of the posting. This person may be able to be traced if you > contact the system administrator at their site. > > If you would like us to try to find out if someone forged your address, > please write to postnews@dejanews.com, include a statement like "I didn't > write this, please find out who did", and include this entire message. We > will try to help you as much as we can, but we are not a legal body and > other system administrators are not always cooperative, so we cannot > promise any results. We are sorry for any inconvenience. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Thu Feb 13 08:39:16 1997 BCC: @MOA.net Message-ID: <33031984.385E@moa.net> Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 08:39:16 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dopost@grunt.dejanews.com Subject: please post References: <199702131214.GAA29899@grunt.dejanews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 4252 dopost@grunt.dejanews.com wrote: > > [A reply is required to post your article. (If you did not request this, > please do not reply to this email, instead read the instructions at the > bottom of this note, and send any questions to postnews@dejanews.com).] > > You have requested that the following article be posted to Usenet via the > Posting Service at Deja News. Your article is currently sitting in our > spool waiting for you to authorize it by following the following > instructions: > > TO POST YOUR ARTICLE PLEASE READ AND FOLLOW THESE INSTRUCTIONS: > --------------------------------------------------------------- > - You must reply to this email, including the ENTIRE text of this email in > the reply. (It's okay if your email program inserts characters in the left > hand column, e.g. '>', or whatever). The reply MUST be sent to: > dopost@postnews.dejanews.com > - You must change the Subject: header of your reply to contain the > words: "PLEASE POST" (capitalization doesn't matter). (Note: this is the > Subject header of the message you send to us, not the subject header of the > article you wish to have posted). > > [The following string must not be changed/modified/wrapped/truncated.] > TRANSID:e1cfb0f43de57451f9b24ee9a25bf333bae6357a0411 > ===================================================================== ====== > From: @moa.net > Subject: Re: HELP! talk.religion.bahai Voting Procedures > Newsgroups: news.groups > Message-Id: <855836041.29875@dejanews.com> > Reply-To: @moa.net > Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service > To: rdetweil@primenet.com > References: <5dn9l6$bks@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> <855659345.29919@dejanews.com> <5dqjj1$erb@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> > X-Article-Creation-Date: Thu Feb 13 12:14:01 1997 GMT > X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.35 (ppp-pm01-dy-3.ouhub.moa.net) > X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) > > In article <5dqjj1$erb@nnrp1.news.primenet.com>, > rdetweil@primenet.com (Richard C. Detweiler) wrote: > > > > It now appears that this is only the opinion of some of the regulars > > here and is by no means true. But hey, if we didn't have a controversy, > > what WOULD we talk about? :-) > > > > Dick D. > > The usenet guidelines state one should not vote no if one is merely > opposed to forming a newsgroup for other than technical reasons. > That is considered unethical. I expect most no votes by Bahais to > be that type of fanatical, unethical approach. > > > "Controversy"? It's the reality of the human being. You people > specialize in stamping it out...while pretending and flattering > yourselves you have the Truth.... > > Frederick Glaysher > Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > > -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- > https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet > > ===================================================================== ====== > > WHAT TO DO IF YOU DID NOT REQUEST THIS POSTING: > ---------------------------------------------- > [This article has NOT yet been posted to Usenet. The reason we send this > email is to authenticate the author of articles we post.] > > If you did not request this article be posted to Usenet via the Deja News > service, that could mean someone using our service forged your address and > attempted to make this article appear as if you had posted it. The person > who did this used the IP address we log in the X-Originating-IP-Addr: > header field of the posting. This person may be able to be traced if you > contact the system administrator at their site. > > If you would like us to try to find out if someone forged your address, > please write to postnews@dejanews.com, include a statement like "I didn't > write this, please find out who did", and include this entire message. We > will try to help you as much as we can, but we are not a legal body and > other system administrators are not always cooperative, so we cannot > promise any results. We are sorry for any inconvenience. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Thu Feb 13 08:39:37 1997 BCC: @MOA.net Message-ID: <33031999.7C79@moa.net> Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 08:39:37 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dopost@grunt.dejanews.com Subject: please post References: <199702131230.GAA30457@grunt.dejanews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 10225 dopost@grunt.dejanews.com wrote: > > [A reply is required to post your article. (If you did not request this, > please do not reply to this email, instead read the instructions at the > bottom of this note, and send any questions to postnews@dejanews.com).] > > You have requested that the following article be posted to Usenet via the > Posting Service at Deja News. Your article is currently sitting in our > spool waiting for you to authorize it by following the following > instructions: > > TO POST YOUR ARTICLE PLEASE READ AND FOLLOW THESE INSTRUCTIONS: > --------------------------------------------------------------- > - You must reply to this email, including the ENTIRE text of this email in > the reply. (It's okay if your email program inserts characters in the left > hand column, e.g. '>', or whatever). The reply MUST be sent to: > dopost@postnews.dejanews.com > - You must change the Subject: header of your reply to contain the > words: "PLEASE POST" (capitalization doesn't matter). (Note: this is the > Subject header of the message you send to us, not the subject header of the > article you wish to have posted). > > [The following string must not be changed/modified/wrapped/truncated.] > TRANSID:e11fa0c47d2554117fde65af1281a192def1a9868e3c > ===================================================================== ====== > From: @moa.net > Subject: Re: RFD - talk.religion.bahai ( was Response to Jim Riley) > Newsgroups: news.groups > Message-Id: <855837020.30432@dejanews.com> > Reply-To: @moa.net > Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service > To: cbstone@phoenix.princeton.edu > References: <854889179.13648@dejanews.com> <5d4frt$re2@cnn.Princeton.EDU> <1o81ZMAlGE+yEwFL@fragrant.demon.co.uk> <5ddlmc$jt0@cnn.Princeton.EDU> <3356d262.855794049@news.pipeline.com> <855656331.29092@dejanews.com> <3382c82a.1049922506@news.pipeline.com> > X-Article-Creation-Date: Thu Feb 13 12:30:21 1997 GMT > X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.35 (ppp-pm01-dy-3.ouhub.moa.net) > X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) > > In article <3382c82a.1049922506@news.pipeline.com>, > jimrtex@pipeline.com wrote: > > > > In article <855656331.29092@dejanews.com> @moa.net > > wrote: > > > > >In article <3356d262.855794049@news.pipeline.com>, > > > jimrtex@pipeline.com wrote: > > >> > > >> The proponent was unable to participate in the discussion immediately > > >> after the posting of the RFD. > > > > > >That's not a problem. I was in touch with my group-mentor, Chris > > >Stone, and have responded to I believe every single posting about > > >talk.religion.bahai since Jan. 17th. > > > > Nonetheless, you had not participated during the first two weeks of > > the discussion. > > > > Not true at all. I did and have participated. > > > Is Chris Stone the mentor for this proposal? He is not listed in the > > RFD. If he is the mentor, he should have disclosed his interest. > > > > He certainly is. Look again. And he has. What's your motivation? > Can't attack the proposal on substantive issues, so now it's going > to be technical, huh? > > > >>After making a few unsubstantiated > > >> claims of censorship, the proponent has (6 Feb) filed the discussion > > >> questionaire with the UVV. It is questionable whether the proponent > > >> has participated in the RFD discussion in good faith. > > > > >False. Further, I emailed the UVV early on for advice, and was > > >informed there was no problem. Anyone who wants evidence of my > > >participation need merely search the files on news.groups or > > >www.dejanews.com..... Evidence of censorship is also on news.groups, > > >more than twenty censored messages.... > > > > Are you saying that Bill Aten's report that the proponent's > > questionaire was filed on 6 February is in error? > > It's correct. > > Your posting's > > with the 20 censored messages were posted 9 February - 3 days > > after you had apparently filed the proponent's questionaire. > > > > I've never said otherwise. What's your point? I posted I was > having trouble getting my ISP to post them, asked for help from > a number of people, but got them up as soon as I could. What's > your problem? > > > >My, you seem to be determined to find some basis to discredit and > > >oppose the proposal for an uncensored newsgroup. Why? > > > > Maybe, I'm concerned about your construction of moderation=censorship. > > Do you vote against all moderated newsgroups because they promote > > censorship? Or do you ignore them and say if the people accept the > > censorship that is OK, as long as you have an "uncensored group"? > > > > I am not claiming all moderation is censorship, only that on > soc.religion.bahai in my experience and the experience of others, > if you read all the messages now on news.groups. > > > I have no knowledge that soc.religion.bahai is censored. It is > > moderated. Why is there need for a second bahai group in Usenet? > > > > If you have no knowledge at this stage, it's only because you > have not read the censored messages posted by myself and others > or their statements that they too have experienced it. > > > >> There is already a group for the discussion by adherents of and > > >> those interested in the Bahai religion. > > > > > Your totalitarian mentality comes through here quite clearly for > any fairminded reader. Why do you want complete control and > power over others? Don't you have any respect for others' > consciences? I can respect you're opposed to t.r.b, but I don't > believe it's for legitimate reasons. > > > >If you want a censored one, there is. > > > > > >>If there is indeed a problem > > >> with the moderation of soc.religion.bahai, this is the issue that > > >> should be addressed. Only if that is unresolvable should additional > > >> groups be considered. > > >> > > >False. That would allow stranglehold control a self-righteous little > > >band of zealots who hide behind the word "moderators." Others have > > >posted to this effect on news.groups, while others are emailing me > > >but lacking sufficient courage to come out into the open.... > > > > If it is impossible to have moderation without censorship, then the > > logical choice would be to unmoderate soc.religion.bahai. Have > > you pursued that path? > > > > False. You're attempting to control still.... It would be > manipulated and distorted.... No, srb may remain the censored > Bahai newsgroup. That doesn't bother me. Trb will be the > uncensored one. > > > >> The proponent has also failed to demonstrate why the existing > > >> group talk.religion.misc is unsuitable for purposes of unmoderated > > > > > >False. Read the censored messages on news.groups and my many postings. > > >I suggest, given the rigidity of your tone and apparent position, that > > >nothing anyone could say would convince you otherwise. You're free > > >to choose a moderated newsgroup on the Bahai Faith if that's what you > > >despite hearing that many people believe it is heavily censored and > > >controlled by the self-appointed, unelected people in power. That's > > >your right, I guess. I don't try to take it away from you, as the > > >moderators routinely take them away from many people who attempt to > > >post there. > > > > The couple I looked at seemed within the limits of responsible > > moderation, though they were pretty hard to follow. Why don't > > you post the 3 most egregious examples, and I'll take a second > > look. > > > > Only a couple, huh? I'm not surprised. They're all egregious > in my opinion. Any censorship is. Read at least the last > several. > > > If you are concerned about moderator misbehaviour, > > then this should be taken up on the moderator's > > mailing list. > > > > Utterly false. They're beyond reform. I have never > advocated reforming them because I understand the way > they're manipulating the entire process of so-called > discussion.... You're in favor of that are you? > > I don't believe the Bahai Writings advocate censorship, > lies, frauds, distortions, and oppression.... > > > -- > > Jim Riley > > Frederick Glaysher > Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > > -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- > https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet > > ===================================================================== ====== > > WHAT TO DO IF YOU DID NOT REQUEST THIS POSTING: > ---------------------------------------------- > [This article has NOT yet been posted to Usenet. The reason we send this > email is to authenticate the author of articles we post.] > > If you did not request this article be posted to Usenet via the Deja News > service, that could mean someone using our service forged your address and > attempted to make this article appear as if you had posted it. The person > who did this used the IP address we log in the X-Originating-IP-Addr: > header field of the posting. This person may be able to be traced if you > contact the system administrator at their site. > > If you would like us to try to find out if someone forged your address, > please write to postnews@dejanews.com, include a statement like "I didn't > write this, please find out who did", and include this entire message. We > will try to help you as much as we can, but we are not a legal body and > other system administrators are not always cooperative, so we cannot > promise any results. We are sorry for any inconvenience. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Thu Feb 13 08:40:01 1997 BCC: @MOA.net Message-ID: <330319B1.5178@moa.net> Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 08:40:01 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dopost@grunt.dejanews.com Subject: please post References: <199702131234.GAA30726@grunt.dejanews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 4763 dopost@grunt.dejanews.com wrote: > > [A reply is required to post your article. (If you did not request this, > please do not reply to this email, instead read the instructions at the > bottom of this note, and send any questions to postnews@dejanews.com).] > > You have requested that the following article be posted to Usenet via the > Posting Service at Deja News. Your article is currently sitting in our > spool waiting for you to authorize it by following the following > instructions: > > TO POST YOUR ARTICLE PLEASE READ AND FOLLOW THESE INSTRUCTIONS: > --------------------------------------------------------------- > - You must reply to this email, including the ENTIRE text of this email in > the reply. (It's okay if your email program inserts characters in the left > hand column, e.g. '>', or whatever). The reply MUST be sent to: > dopost@postnews.dejanews.com > - You must change the Subject: header of your reply to contain the > words: "PLEASE POST" (capitalization doesn't matter). (Note: this is the > Subject header of the message you send to us, not the subject header of the > article you wish to have posted). > > [The following string must not be changed/modified/wrapped/truncated.] > TRANSID:71dfb094cdb544c19fc43b4f77755ef5f98586db47e9 > ===================================================================== ====== > From: @moa.net > Subject: Re: Information on the upcoming CFV (talk.religion.bahai) > Newsgroups: news.groups > Message-Id: <855837285.30688@dejanews.com> > Reply-To: @moa.net > Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service > To: desj@ccr-p.ida.org > References: <5dn9l6$bks@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> > X-Article-Creation-Date: Thu Feb 13 12:34:45 1997 GMT > X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.35 (ppp-pm01-dy-3.ouhub.moa.net) > X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) > > Thanks. > -- > Frederick Glaysher > Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > > > In article , > desj@ccr-p.ida.org (David desJardins) wrote: > > > > Jean Hunter writes: > > > It seems unfair to paint Mr. Detweiler as a liar, when he passed on > > > information from this newsgroup which seemed to be reliable and which > > > went unchallenged for several days. > > > > Lots of noise goes unchallenged in news.groups. The majority of > > postings here are noise. Many people have extensive kill files just so > > they can ignore the worst of it. But I do apologize for the term "liar" > > which obviously wasn't an accurate description of his intentions. > > > > On the other hand, I certainly didn't see anyone post to news.groups > > that votes would be cancelled because people turned out to have voted NO > > for their own personal reasons, and I would have "challenged" that > > statement if I had seen it. Lots of people do vote NO for their own > > personal reasons all the time. That isn't a reason to cancel a vote. > > > > David desJardins > > -- > > Copyright 1997 David desJardins. Unlimited permission is granted to quote > > from this posting for non-commercial use as long as attribution is given. > > -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- > https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet > > ===================================================================== ====== > > WHAT TO DO IF YOU DID NOT REQUEST THIS POSTING: > ---------------------------------------------- > [This article has NOT yet been posted to Usenet. The reason we send this > email is to authenticate the author of articles we post.] > > If you did not request this article be posted to Usenet via the Deja News > service, that could mean someone using our service forged your address and > attempted to make this article appear as if you had posted it. The person > who did this used the IP address we log in the X-Originating-IP-Addr: > header field of the posting. This person may be able to be traced if you > contact the system administrator at their site. > > If you would like us to try to find out if someone forged your address, > please write to postnews@dejanews.com, include a statement like "I didn't > write this, please find out who did", and include this entire message. We > will try to help you as much as we can, but we are not a legal body and > other system administrators are not always cooperative, so we cannot > promise any results. We are sorry for any inconvenience. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Thu Feb 13 08:40:24 1997 BCC: @MOA.net Message-ID: <330319C8.3676@moa.net> Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 08:40:24 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dopost@grunt.dejanews.com Subject: please post References: <199702131245.GAA31396@grunt.dejanews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 9351 dopost@grunt.dejanews.com wrote: > > [A reply is required to post your article. (If you did not request this, > please do not reply to this email, instead read the instructions at the > bottom of this note, and send any questions to postnews@dejanews.com).] > > You have requested that the following article be posted to Usenet via the > Posting Service at Deja News. Your article is currently sitting in our > spool waiting for you to authorize it by following the following > instructions: > > TO POST YOUR ARTICLE PLEASE READ AND FOLLOW THESE INSTRUCTIONS: > --------------------------------------------------------------- > - You must reply to this email, including the ENTIRE text of this email in > the reply. (It's okay if your email program inserts characters in the left > hand column, e.g. '>', or whatever). The reply MUST be sent to: > dopost@postnews.dejanews.com > - You must change the Subject: header of your reply to contain the > words: "PLEASE POST" (capitalization doesn't matter). (Note: this is the > Subject header of the message you send to us, not the subject header of the > article you wish to have posted). > > [The following string must not be changed/modified/wrapped/truncated.] > TRANSID:f16f10a4cd256441389b44ba1d9fe4456ac9f77b1bb7 > ===================================================================== ====== > From: @moa.net > Subject: Re: T.r.bahai Response to Isaac Freeman > Newsgroups: news.groups > Message-Id: <855837908.31388@dejanews.com> > Reply-To: @moa.net > Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service > References: <854889179.13648@dejanews.com> <5dft41$f1u@cnn.Princeton.EDU> <5diflj$r99@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> <5dlmui$sph$1@cantuc.canterbury.ac.nz> <5dohqm$6vd$1@cantuc.canterbury.ac.nz> <855657250.29363@dejanews.com> <5dr394$9uh$1@cantuc.canterbury.ac.nz> <855 > X-Article-Creation-Date: Thu Feb 13 12:45:10 1997 GMT > X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.35 (ppp-pm01-dy-3.ouhub.moa.net) > X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) > > In article <5dtr3u$o9o$1@cantuc.canterbury.ac.nz>, > math5ijf@math.canterbury.ac.nz (Isaac Freeman) wrote: > > > > In article <855748977.10789@dejanews.com>, @moa.net writes: > > > In article <5dr394$9uh$1@cantuc.canterbury.ac.nz>, > > > math5ijf@math.canterbury.ac.nz (Isaac Freeman) wrote: > > > > > > > > In article <855657250.29363@dejanews.com>, @moa.net writes: > > > > > > Until recently I was unaware that there was any discussion of the > Baha'i > > > > > > Faith there. > > > > > > I don't believe I ever wrote the above. > > > > You didn't, and I agree that that isn't entirely clear. I wrote the above, > > which is why there is an even number of ">"s before it. The same is true for > > the other instances you pointed out - I did not mean to imply that you wrote > > them. > > > > > I've notice for at least a year > > > that once in a while, rarely, but occasionally, a few Bahais post > > > something on soc.religion.misc.... This is irrelevant to forming > > > talk.religion.bahai.... > > > > You believe that soc.religion.bahai is being censored, and that there is no > > suitable alternative group, right? If that is a relevant opinion, then surely > > the opinion that talk.religion.misc _is_ a suitable group is also relevant. > > > > I respect your opinion but believe it fails to acknowledge the fact > that no real discussion takes place on tr.misc and that it's > overwhelming devoted to Christian discussion. That forum would > scatter the focus I'm trying to form, which I believe is exactly > what people like you are attempting to do. What's your real > motive, Freeman? Beg my pardon, but your name seems IRONIC. > > > > People who keep bringing this up, in my opinion, > > > are in favor of the censorship that exist on soc.religion.bahai and > > > want to marginalize any other opinions would that manipulated forum. > > > > I respectfully disagree with your opinion for two reasons: one, the people who > > keep bringing this up seem to be generally unconvinced that there _is_ > > censorship on soc.religion.bahai; and two, these people have no power > > whatsoever to marginalize any other opinions. > > > > Read the postings to news.groups. There's plenty of evidence there > now of censorship from myself and OTHERS.... They attempting to > refute other opinions in favor of trb. > > > > > > There is no significant discussion of the Bahai Faith on > > > > > talk.religion.misc > > > > > because it's too broad and global.... Most discussion > > > > > is Christian with a dabbling of other faiths occasionally thrown in. > > > > That's what people are posting at the moment. If people want to post > anything > > > > about the Baha'i Faith there they can. I don't understand what you mean > when > > > > you say that the group is "too broad and global". Surely being broad and > > > > global is precisely the reason why it is a suitable place to post about > the > > > > Baha'i Faith. > > > More specious reasoning.... > > > > I'm afraid that I still do not understand your reasons for believing that > > talk.religion.misc is unsuitable. > > > > Then you're not listening and don't want to. > > > > > > > > Will you recommend that others vote no on talk.religion.bahai in > > > > > > > public or private messages outside of news.groups? > > > > > > Certainly not. It is not my business to tell people how to vote on > > > > > > anything. > > > > > > In Baha'i elections we have maintain a secret ballot, accept no > > > > > > nominations and allow no campaigning, in order that the individual > > > > > > should have no constraints to voting on their own conscience. I try > > > > > > and approach any vote in the same spirit. > > > > > > I have no right whatsoever to attempt to influence the votes of other > > > > > > people. > > > Freeman, you are clearly attempting to influence others to vote no. Your > > > many comments prove that. > > > > I beg your pardon? I have publicly stated that I intend to abstain from > > voting. > > I will look carefully for your name in the results. > > > My many comments have been an attempt to understand the issues relating to the > > formation of talk.religion.bahai, and I am very sorry if they have been > > interpreted as any sort of campaign one way or the other. I posted them > > publicly because I thought that others might also be interested in these > > issues, and in your responses to me questions. > > > > > > > I URGE YOU THEN TO READ THE CENSORED MESSAGES ON NEWS.GROUPS. > > > > > > > > I have read carefully all of the "censored" messages that I've seen so > far. > > I thought you just said a few? > > > > > I recall reading a couple of them on soc.religion.bahai (although I can't > say > > > > whether the text was precisely the same), so I can't consider these > censored. > > > > > > The text wasn't the same. It had been bowdlerized by the nannies.... > > > That's one or two out of 17 that never appeared on soc.religion.bahai... > > > > OK. In any case, the text was sufficiently similar that I didn't recognise > the > > difference, and unless my memory of the result is faulty the same points were > > made in both versions. > > DITTO, DITTO, DITTO.... > > FREDERICK GLAYSHER > ROCHESTER HILLS, MICHIGAN USA > > -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- > https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet > > ===================================================================== ====== > > WHAT TO DO IF YOU DID NOT REQUEST THIS POSTING: > ---------------------------------------------- > [This article has NOT yet been posted to Usenet. The reason we send this > email is to authenticate the author of articles we post.] > > If you did not request this article be posted to Usenet via the Deja News > service, that could mean someone using our service forged your address and > attempted to make this article appear as if you had posted it. The person > who did this used the IP address we log in the X-Originating-IP-Addr: > header field of the posting. This person may be able to be traced if you > contact the system administrator at their site. > > If you would like us to try to find out if someone forged your address, > please write to postnews@dejanews.com, include a statement like "I didn't > write this, please find out who did", and include this entire message. We > will try to help you as much as we can, but we are not a legal body and > other system administrators are not always cooperative, so we cannot > promise any results. We are sorry for any inconvenience. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Thu Feb 13 09:13:34 1997 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.35) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 08:49:03 -0500 Message-ID: <33031D90.6EB4@moa.net> Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 08:56:32 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dopost@grunt.dejanews.com Subject: please post References: <199702131305.HAA32049@grunt.dejanews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 12638 dopost@grunt.dejanews.com wrote: > > [A reply is required to post your article. (If you did not request this, > please do not reply to this email, instead read the instructions at the > bottom of this note, and send any questions to postnews@dejanews.com).] > > You have requested that the following article be posted to Usenet via the > Posting Service at Deja News. Your article is currently sitting in our > spool waiting for you to authorize it by following the following > instructions: > > TO POST YOUR ARTICLE PLEASE READ AND FOLLOW THESE INSTRUCTIONS: > --------------------------------------------------------------- > - You must reply to this email, including the ENTIRE text of this email in > the reply. (It's okay if your email program inserts characters in the left > hand column, e.g. '>', or whatever). The reply MUST be sent to: > dopost@postnews.dejanews.com > - You must change the Subject: header of your reply to contain the > words: "PLEASE POST" (capitalization doesn't matter). (Note: this is the > Subject header of the message you send to us, not the subject header of the > article you wish to have posted). > > [The following string must not be changed/modified/wrapped/truncated.] > TRANSID:415f10d41de55451701b20491a2613d1c94ea0efc4bf > ===================================================================== ====== > From: @moa.net > Subject: S.r.bahai Censored 2-13-97: Maneck > Newsgroups: news.groups > Message-Id: <855839100.31995@dejanews.com> > Reply-To: @moa.net > Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service > X-Article-Creation-Date: Thu Feb 13 13:05:02 1997 GMT > X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.35 (ppp-pm01-dy-3.ouhub.moa.net) > X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) > > No censorship on SRB? It's only me? > Read all of this and correct me if I'm wrong.... > -- > Frederick Glaysher > Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > ----------------------------------------- > > Subject: > Re: New Group > Date: > Thu, 13 Feb 1997 05:21:11 -0700 (MST) > From: > "Richard C. Detweiler" > To: > @moa.net > CC: > srb-mods@bcca.org > > > Dear Fred, > > By now you know what is and is not acceptable discourse for the > newsgroup. I am returning this to you for editting. Once again > I will remind you that you are free to disagree with others on > the newsgroup but it must be done in a respectful manner. > > You may post this anywhere else you like, but it will not be posted > in this form on soc.religion.bahai. > > Dick Detweiler > co-fascist, soc.religion.bahai > > > > From: FG <@moa.net> > > Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai > > Subject: Re: New Group > > Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 07:17:37 -0500 > > Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A. > > Lines: 186 > > Message-ID: <33030661.2BD3@moa.net> > > References: <5dtoc2$iis@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> > > Reply-To: @moa.net > > NNTP-Posting-Host: zeus.moa.net > > Mime-Version: 1.0 > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) > > To: Susan Maneck > > Content-Length: 6443 > > > > Susan Maneck wrote: > > > > > > Frederick writes: > > > > > > > How about the negative consequences of the censored and manipulated > > > > forum of soc.religion.bahai? Look on news.groups for a one Susan > Maneck's > > > > censored messages.... > > > > > > Since you raise this issue, and placed my posting there without my > > > consent, let me discuss what happened between myself and the > > > moderators. > > > > > > > Because you're a two-faced coward, Susan. One minute opposed to > > censorship, the next supporting it.... > > > > > There was a message which one of the > > > moderators returned to me after three days informing me that > > > they did not intend to post it. > > > > "Did not intend to post it"..... > > > > I protested and asked > > > them to reconsider their decision.. > > > > > > When I did not hear from them after a day I > > > mistakenly assumed they were ignoring my request and therefore posted > > > this instance of "censorship" on Talisman, forwarding copies to each > > > of the moderators. I was conerned that the moderators might be > > > using their position to restrict the free-flow of information. > > > > Why would you think that? > > > > This > > > turned out not to be the case. > > > > > > Two of the moderators responding on Talisman > > > and what followed was a very fruitful consultation. I discovered that > > > the moderator in question was new at the job and had been having > > > 'technical difficulties' which had prevented responses and posting > > > from being done in a timely fashion. The posting I made was rejected > > > for reasons of redundancy because the moderators were planning to > > > post something from Steve Scholl which gave a first hand account of > > > the events in question. Seeing that, I withdrew the bulk of my post. > > > > > > > Yours is not redundant. It adds weight to the discussion. > > > > [clip] > > > > > A moderator: > > > > > > > clip > > > > > > > > A moderator: > > > > > > > > > > The anger? Mine? I'm not angry. I'm tired. Sorry. Sometimes > > > > > that doesn't come out clear in my writing. > > > > > > ME: > > > > > > > I wasn't referring to your anger. I meant those longstanding Baha'is > > > (snip) > > > > who threaten to unsubscribe if we keep asking too many uncomfortable > > > > issues. These are the things that make the threads long and angry. > > > > > > > > And so we should ask them, to keep them happy, living in their vague, > > idealistic dream world.... > > > > > > > > Then another moderator made this magnificent post that won the hearts > > > of all the Talismanians: > > > > > > "Right. And here is my personal view. IMO, one of the beauties of > > > the newsgroup is that it DOES force these out into the open where > > > they can be dealt with. And these threads will remain long and angry > > > until not only the Baha'is you are talking about but ALL the Baha'is > > > learn to truly consult. Forget our preconceived notions, really > > > listen, try to put ourselves in each others shoes, respect our > > > differing opinions, and look for that spark of truth that > > > `Abdu'l-Baha talked about that is always out there but hidden behind > > > everyone's egos and hidden agendas. That sure would make our lives > > > as moderators a lot easier." > > > > > > > In the moderators' practice, it's more like smother the spark of > > truth, stamped it out.... > > > > > In my opinion this is precisely what SRB should be about. Let > > > me to also share with you my personal response to the moderators > > > after our consultation on Talisman was finished: > > > > > > > Vague, meaningless flourish toward reform? > > > > > > Dear *** and ****, > > > > > > > > (snip)clip > > > > > Only by consulting with the > > > > community at large without recrimination can we hope to resolve some > > > > of our difficulties. > > > > > > > > Thank you for your patience and understanding and please keep us in > > > > your prayers. > > > > > > > > love, Susan > > > > > > For the record, let me say I am more than satisfied with the way in > > > which SRB is being moderated. Do they make mistakes? > > > > Now you support the fascists.... What have they promised you? A > > castle in Bavaria? > > > > Of course, and > > > I've made a few myself :-) But they are not "spiking" post, nor are > > > the censoring messages in order to stop the free-flow of information > > > or views, ( with the possible exception of not allowing Remeyites to > > > express their opinions on issues related to the Covenant.) What they > > > are attempting to do is prevent personal attacks, intervene > > > in flamewars, and limit the amount of endless > > > repitition on a single topic. > > > > > > > Now they're holy saints.... > > > > > To my comment: > > > > > > > We do *not* have a > > > > > duty to control the way others choose to present it. > > > > > I personally don't think such a Baha'i forum could > > > > > successfully operate under the conditions Fred wants because there > > > > > already are Baha'i forums such as Talisman II in which the free > > > > > expression of ideas can be made so long as personal attacks are > > > > > avoided. > > > > > > Frederick wrote: > > > > > > > > Talisman is in effect censored too. They have there own pet little > > > > ideas. The listserv of freedom and liberalism: a fascist bunch of > > > > academics, IMHO. And I am one who spent fourteen years of his life > > > > in that increasingly fascist milieu.... > > > > > > Talisman II is an unmoderated list serv. It has few rules, but one of > > > them is to avoid personal attacks. An individual recently > > > could not live within those guidelines. He was violently offensive > > > and succeeded in alienating all sides, on a list which justly has the > > > reputation of being tumultuous. The members of the list were > > > virtually unanimous in asking that he be unsubscribed. > > > > And that's not censorship. THEY'RE still the listserv of light and > > truth.... "Violently offensive": what shameless, deceitful > > characterization.... > > > > Yes, Fred, I > > > suppose you have the right to say whatever you wish. *We* have the > > > right not to be your dumping ground. If anyone wishes to be "dumped > > > on" and engage in the kind of endless flame wars which Frederick > > > seems to equate with free speech you are welcome to join his list. I > > > certainly intend to do nothing to block its formation. > > > > > > > Same old rhetoric, Susan. I don't, incidentally, consider it my list. > > That's the cute argument of others who permit their own kind of > > "dumping." Like dumping one position and hoisting another when it > > suits your moods or motives.... > > > > > This is not about censorship, it is about the common courtesy > > > necessary for any fruitful consultation. > > > > > > > False. It is about censorship, that of the moderators, which you've > > experienced, and don't have the honesty apparently to confront. Why the > > backpaddling now? > > > > > > > Susan > > > > -- > > love, > > > > Frederick Glaysher > > Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > > > > > -- > Frederick Glaysher > Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > > -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- > https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet > > ===================================================================== ====== > > WHAT TO DO IF YOU DID NOT REQUEST THIS POSTING: > ---------------------------------------------- > [This article has NOT yet been posted to Usenet. The reason we send this > email is to authenticate the author of articles we post.] > > If you did not request this article be posted to Usenet via the Deja News > service, that could mean someone using our service forged your address and > attempted to make this article appear as if you had posted it. The person > who did this used the IP address we log in the X-Originating-IP-Addr: > header field of the posting. This person may be able to be traced if you > contact the system administrator at their site. > > If you would like us to try to find out if someone forged your address, > please write to postnews@dejanews.com, include a statement like "I didn't > write this, please find out who did", and include this entire message. We > will try to help you as much as we can, but we are not a legal body and > other system administrators are not always cooperative, so we cannot > promise any results. We are sorry for any inconvenience. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Thu Feb 13 08:56:32 1997 BCC: @MOA.net Message-ID: <33031D90.6EB4@moa.net> Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 08:56:32 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dopost@grunt.dejanews.com Subject: please post References: <199702131305.HAA32049@grunt.dejanews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 12640 dopost@grunt.dejanews.com wrote: > > [A reply is required to post your article. (If you did not request this, > please do not reply to this email, instead read the instructions at the > bottom of this note, and send any questions to postnews@dejanews.com).] > > You have requested that the following article be posted to Usenet via the > Posting Service at Deja News. Your article is currently sitting in our > spool waiting for you to authorize it by following the following > instructions: > > TO POST YOUR ARTICLE PLEASE READ AND FOLLOW THESE INSTRUCTIONS: > --------------------------------------------------------------- > - You must reply to this email, including the ENTIRE text of this email in > the reply. (It's okay if your email program inserts characters in the left > hand column, e.g. '>', or whatever). The reply MUST be sent to: > dopost@postnews.dejanews.com > - You must change the Subject: header of your reply to contain the > words: "PLEASE POST" (capitalization doesn't matter). (Note: this is the > Subject header of the message you send to us, not the subject header of the > article you wish to have posted). > > [The following string must not be changed/modified/wrapped/truncated.] > TRANSID:415f10d41de55451701b20491a2613d1c94ea0efc4bf > ===================================================================== ====== > From: @moa.net > Subject: S.r.bahai Censored 2-13-97: Maneck > Newsgroups: news.groups > Message-Id: <855839100.31995@dejanews.com> > Reply-To: @moa.net > Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service > X-Article-Creation-Date: Thu Feb 13 13:05:02 1997 GMT > X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.35 (ppp-pm01-dy-3.ouhub.moa.net) > X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) > > No censorship on SRB? It's only me? > Read all of this and correct me if I'm wrong.... > -- > Frederick Glaysher > Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > ----------------------------------------- > > Subject: > Re: New Group > Date: > Thu, 13 Feb 1997 05:21:11 -0700 (MST) > From: > "Richard C. Detweiler" > To: > @moa.net > CC: > srb-mods@bcca.org > > > Dear Fred, > > By now you know what is and is not acceptable discourse for the > newsgroup. I am returning this to you for editting. Once again > I will remind you that you are free to disagree with others on > the newsgroup but it must be done in a respectful manner. > > You may post this anywhere else you like, but it will not be posted > in this form on soc.religion.bahai. > > Dick Detweiler > co-fascist, soc.religion.bahai > > > > From: FG <@moa.net> > > Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai > > Subject: Re: New Group > > Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 07:17:37 -0500 > > Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A. > > Lines: 186 > > Message-ID: <33030661.2BD3@moa.net> > > References: <5dtoc2$iis@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> > > Reply-To: @moa.net > > NNTP-Posting-Host: zeus.moa.net > > Mime-Version: 1.0 > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) > > To: Susan Maneck > > Content-Length: 6443 > > > > Susan Maneck wrote: > > > > > > Frederick writes: > > > > > > > How about the negative consequences of the censored and manipulated > > > > forum of soc.religion.bahai? Look on news.groups for a one Susan > Maneck's > > > > censored messages.... > > > > > > Since you raise this issue, and placed my posting there without my > > > consent, let me discuss what happened between myself and the > > > moderators. > > > > > > > Because you're a two-faced coward, Susan. One minute opposed to > > censorship, the next supporting it.... > > > > > There was a message which one of the > > > moderators returned to me after three days informing me that > > > they did not intend to post it. > > > > "Did not intend to post it"..... > > > > I protested and asked > > > them to reconsider their decision.. > > > > > > When I did not hear from them after a day I > > > mistakenly assumed they were ignoring my request and therefore posted > > > this instance of "censorship" on Talisman, forwarding copies to each > > > of the moderators. I was conerned that the moderators might be > > > using their position to restrict the free-flow of information. > > > > Why would you think that? > > > > This > > > turned out not to be the case. > > > > > > Two of the moderators responding on Talisman > > > and what followed was a very fruitful consultation. I discovered that > > > the moderator in question was new at the job and had been having > > > 'technical difficulties' which had prevented responses and posting > > > from being done in a timely fashion. The posting I made was rejected > > > for reasons of redundancy because the moderators were planning to > > > post something from Steve Scholl which gave a first hand account of > > > the events in question. Seeing that, I withdrew the bulk of my post. > > > > > > > Yours is not redundant. It adds weight to the discussion. > > > > [clip] > > > > > A moderator: > > > > > > > clip > > > > > > > > A moderator: > > > > > > > > > > The anger? Mine? I'm not angry. I'm tired. Sorry. Sometimes > > > > > that doesn't come out clear in my writing. > > > > > > ME: > > > > > > > I wasn't referring to your anger. I meant those longstanding Baha'is > > > (snip) > > > > who threaten to unsubscribe if we keep asking too many uncomfortable > > > > issues. These are the things that make the threads long and angry. > > > > > > > > And so we should ask them, to keep them happy, living in their vague, > > idealistic dream world.... > > > > > > > > Then another moderator made this magnificent post that won the hearts > > > of all the Talismanians: > > > > > > "Right. And here is my personal view. IMO, one of the beauties of > > > the newsgroup is that it DOES force these out into the open where > > > they can be dealt with. And these threads will remain long and angry > > > until not only the Baha'is you are talking about but ALL the Baha'is > > > learn to truly consult. Forget our preconceived notions, really > > > listen, try to put ourselves in each others shoes, respect our > > > differing opinions, and look for that spark of truth that > > > `Abdu'l-Baha talked about that is always out there but hidden behind > > > everyone's egos and hidden agendas. That sure would make our lives > > > as moderators a lot easier." > > > > > > > In the moderators' practice, it's more like smother the spark of > > truth, stamped it out.... > > > > > In my opinion this is precisely what SRB should be about. Let > > > me to also share with you my personal response to the moderators > > > after our consultation on Talisman was finished: > > > > > > > Vague, meaningless flourish toward reform? > > > > > > Dear *** and ****, > > > > > > > > (snip)clip > > > > > Only by consulting with the > > > > community at large without recrimination can we hope to resolve some > > > > of our difficulties. > > > > > > > > Thank you for your patience and understanding and please keep us in > > > > your prayers. > > > > > > > > love, Susan > > > > > > For the record, let me say I am more than satisfied with the way in > > > which SRB is being moderated. Do they make mistakes? > > > > Now you support the fascists.... What have they promised you? A > > castle in Bavaria? > > > > Of course, and > > > I've made a few myself :-) But they are not "spiking" post, nor are > > > the censoring messages in order to stop the free-flow of information > > > or views, ( with the possible exception of not allowing Remeyites to > > > express their opinions on issues related to the Covenant.) What they > > > are attempting to do is prevent personal attacks, intervene > > > in flamewars, and limit the amount of endless > > > repitition on a single topic. > > > > > > > Now they're holy saints.... > > > > > To my comment: > > > > > > > We do *not* have a > > > > > duty to control the way others choose to present it. > > > > > I personally don't think such a Baha'i forum could > > > > > successfully operate under the conditions Fred wants because there > > > > > already are Baha'i forums such as Talisman II in which the free > > > > > expression of ideas can be made so long as personal attacks are > > > > > avoided. > > > > > > Frederick wrote: > > > > > > > > Talisman is in effect censored too. They have there own pet little > > > > ideas. The listserv of freedom and liberalism: a fascist bunch of > > > > academics, IMHO. And I am one who spent fourteen years of his life > > > > in that increasingly fascist milieu.... > > > > > > Talisman II is an unmoderated list serv. It has few rules, but one of > > > them is to avoid personal attacks. An individual recently > > > could not live within those guidelines. He was violently offensive > > > and succeeded in alienating all sides, on a list which justly has the > > > reputation of being tumultuous. The members of the list were > > > virtually unanimous in asking that he be unsubscribed. > > > > And that's not censorship. THEY'RE still the listserv of light and > > truth.... "Violently offensive": what shameless, deceitful > > characterization.... > > > > Yes, Fred, I > > > suppose you have the right to say whatever you wish. *We* have the > > > right not to be your dumping ground. If anyone wishes to be "dumped > > > on" and engage in the kind of endless flame wars which Frederick > > > seems to equate with free speech you are welcome to join his list. I > > > certainly intend to do nothing to block its formation. > > > > > > > Same old rhetoric, Susan. I don't, incidentally, consider it my list. > > That's the cute argument of others who permit their own kind of > > "dumping." Like dumping one position and hoisting another when it > > suits your moods or motives.... > > > > > This is not about censorship, it is about the common courtesy > > > necessary for any fruitful consultation. > > > > > > > False. It is about censorship, that of the moderators, which you've > > experienced, and don't have the honesty apparently to confront. Why the > > backpaddling now? > > > > > > > Susan > > > > -- > > love, > > > > Frederick Glaysher > > Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > > > > > -- > Frederick Glaysher > Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > > -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- > https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet > > ===================================================================== ====== > > WHAT TO DO IF YOU DID NOT REQUEST THIS POSTING: > ---------------------------------------------- > [This article has NOT yet been posted to Usenet. The reason we send this > email is to authenticate the author of articles we post.] > > If you did not request this article be posted to Usenet via the Deja News > service, that could mean someone using our service forged your address and > attempted to make this article appear as if you had posted it. The person > who did this used the IP address we log in the X-Originating-IP-Addr: > header field of the posting. This person may be able to be traced if you > contact the system administrator at their site. > > If you would like us to try to find out if someone forged your address, > please write to postnews@dejanews.com, include a statement like "I didn't > write this, please find out who did", and include this entire message. We > will try to help you as much as we can, but we are not a legal body and > other system administrators are not always cooperative, so we cannot > promise any results. We are sorry for any inconvenience. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Fri Feb 14 08:43:18 1997 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.60) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Fri, 14 Feb 1997 08:33:47 -0500 Message-ID: <33046B7A.31C6@moa.net> Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 08:41:14 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dopost@grunt.dejanews.com Subject: please post References: <199702141105.FAA17784@grunt.dejanews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 4805 dopost@grunt.dejanews.com wrote: > > [A reply is required to post your article. (If you did not request this, > please do not reply to this email, instead read the instructions at the > bottom of this note, and send any questions to postnews@dejanews.com).] > > You have requested that the following article be posted to Usenet via the > Posting Service at Deja News. Your article is currently sitting in our > spool waiting for you to authorize it by following the following > instructions: > > TO POST YOUR ARTICLE PLEASE READ AND FOLLOW THESE INSTRUCTIONS: > --------------------------------------------------------------- > - You must reply to this email, including the ENTIRE text of this email in > the reply. (It's okay if your email program inserts characters in the left > hand column, e.g. '>', or whatever). The reply MUST be sent to: > dopost@postnews.dejanews.com > - You must change the Subject: header of your reply to contain the > words: "PLEASE POST" (capitalization doesn't matter). (Note: this is the > Subject header of the message you send to us, not the subject header of the > article you wish to have posted). > > [The following string must not be changed/modified/wrapped/truncated.] > TRANSID:e13f10c42da5043123f1b742dd51501ff52e1f3a036c > ===================================================================== ====== > From: @moa.net > Subject: Re: t.r.bahai - NEEDED > Newsgroups: news.groups > Message-Id: <855918332.17774@dejanews.com> > Reply-To: @moa.net > Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service > To: srb-mods@bcca.org,robbbrobbb@aol.com > References: <19970214064401.BAA02439@ladder01.news.aol.com> > X-Article-Creation-Date: Fri Feb 14 11:05:32 1997 GMT > X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.60 (ppp-pm01-dy-28.ouhub.moa.net) > X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) > > In article <19970214064401.BAA02439@ladder01.news.aol.com>, > robbbrobbb@aol.com (RobbbRobbb) wrote: > > > > Dear Baha'is, friends and seekers discussing the proposed talk. > > religion.bahai newsgroup, > > > > [clip] > > By the > > perceived need for excessive control of speech in the soc.religion.bahai > > group we are sending people away from the faith not to it. The Baha'i > > faith does not seek to control anyones thoughts. > > > > It's not merely "perceived"; it exists.... Any amount of "control of > speech," when done for ideological reasons, is "excessive" in my > opinion. I've been a Bahai for over twenty years, and I believe many > individuals do indeed "seek to control" others' thoughts. I'm tired > of it, and so are others in the Faith. > > [clip] > > > In summary I find the scope of the existing soc.religion.bahai a bit > > inaccessible for the seeker or new believer and due to the proven > > censorship situations posted in this group I feel that it is time to open > > the gates to free and unfettered discussion on the faith. I urge all > > Baha'is and those interested in the Baha'i faith to show their support for > > the establishment of talk.religion.bahai. There is a clear need. > > > > RobbbRobbb@aol.com > > I appreciate your honest contribution. You're a rare Bahai.... > > Frederick Glaysher > Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > > -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- > https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet > > ===================================================================== ====== > > WHAT TO DO IF YOU DID NOT REQUEST THIS POSTING: > ---------------------------------------------- > [This article has NOT yet been posted to Usenet. The reason we send this > email is to authenticate the author of articles we post.] > > If you did not request this article be posted to Usenet via the Deja News > service, that could mean someone using our service forged your address and > attempted to make this article appear as if you had posted it. The person > who did this used the IP address we log in the X-Originating-IP-Addr: > header field of the posting. This person may be able to be traced if you > contact the system administrator at their site. > > If you would like us to try to find out if someone forged your address, > please write to postnews@dejanews.com, include a statement like "I didn't > write this, please find out who did", and include this entire message. We > will try to help you as much as we can, but we are not a legal body and > other system administrators are not always cooperative, so we cannot > promise any results. We are sorry for any inconvenience. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Fri Feb 14 08:41:14 1997 BCC: @MOA.net Message-ID: <33046B7A.31C6@moa.net> Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 08:41:14 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dopost@grunt.dejanews.com Subject: please post References: <199702141105.FAA17784@grunt.dejanews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 4807 dopost@grunt.dejanews.com wrote: > > [A reply is required to post your article. (If you did not request this, > please do not reply to this email, instead read the instructions at the > bottom of this note, and send any questions to postnews@dejanews.com).] > > You have requested that the following article be posted to Usenet via the > Posting Service at Deja News. Your article is currently sitting in our > spool waiting for you to authorize it by following the following > instructions: > > TO POST YOUR ARTICLE PLEASE READ AND FOLLOW THESE INSTRUCTIONS: > --------------------------------------------------------------- > - You must reply to this email, including the ENTIRE text of this email in > the reply. (It's okay if your email program inserts characters in the left > hand column, e.g. '>', or whatever). The reply MUST be sent to: > dopost@postnews.dejanews.com > - You must change the Subject: header of your reply to contain the > words: "PLEASE POST" (capitalization doesn't matter). (Note: this is the > Subject header of the message you send to us, not the subject header of the > article you wish to have posted). > > [The following string must not be changed/modified/wrapped/truncated.] > TRANSID:e13f10c42da5043123f1b742dd51501ff52e1f3a036c > ===================================================================== ====== > From: @moa.net > Subject: Re: t.r.bahai - NEEDED > Newsgroups: news.groups > Message-Id: <855918332.17774@dejanews.com> > Reply-To: @moa.net > Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service > To: srb-mods@bcca.org,robbbrobbb@aol.com > References: <19970214064401.BAA02439@ladder01.news.aol.com> > X-Article-Creation-Date: Fri Feb 14 11:05:32 1997 GMT > X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.60 (ppp-pm01-dy-28.ouhub.moa.net) > X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) > > In article <19970214064401.BAA02439@ladder01.news.aol.com>, > robbbrobbb@aol.com (RobbbRobbb) wrote: > > > > Dear Baha'is, friends and seekers discussing the proposed talk. > > religion.bahai newsgroup, > > > > [clip] > > By the > > perceived need for excessive control of speech in the soc.religion.bahai > > group we are sending people away from the faith not to it. The Baha'i > > faith does not seek to control anyones thoughts. > > > > It's not merely "perceived"; it exists.... Any amount of "control of > speech," when done for ideological reasons, is "excessive" in my > opinion. I've been a Bahai for over twenty years, and I believe many > individuals do indeed "seek to control" others' thoughts. I'm tired > of it, and so are others in the Faith. > > [clip] > > > In summary I find the scope of the existing soc.religion.bahai a bit > > inaccessible for the seeker or new believer and due to the proven > > censorship situations posted in this group I feel that it is time to open > > the gates to free and unfettered discussion on the faith. I urge all > > Baha'is and those interested in the Baha'i faith to show their support for > > the establishment of talk.religion.bahai. There is a clear need. > > > > RobbbRobbb@aol.com > > I appreciate your honest contribution. You're a rare Bahai.... > > Frederick Glaysher > Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > > -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- > https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet > > ===================================================================== ====== > > WHAT TO DO IF YOU DID NOT REQUEST THIS POSTING: > ---------------------------------------------- > [This article has NOT yet been posted to Usenet. The reason we send this > email is to authenticate the author of articles we post.] > > If you did not request this article be posted to Usenet via the Deja News > service, that could mean someone using our service forged your address and > attempted to make this article appear as if you had posted it. The person > who did this used the IP address we log in the X-Originating-IP-Addr: > header field of the posting. This person may be able to be traced if you > contact the system administrator at their site. > > If you would like us to try to find out if someone forged your address, > please write to postnews@dejanews.com, include a statement like "I didn't > write this, please find out who did", and include this entire message. We > will try to help you as much as we can, but we are not a legal body and > other system administrators are not always cooperative, so we cannot > promise any results. We are sorry for any inconvenience. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Fri Feb 14 08:43:21 1997 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.60) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Fri, 14 Feb 1997 08:34:14 -0500 Message-ID: <33046B92.6664@moa.net> Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 08:41:38 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dopost@grunt.dejanews.com Subject: please post References: <199702141137.FAA18486@grunt.dejanews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 10618 dopost@grunt.dejanews.com wrote: > > [A reply is required to post your article. (If you did not request this, > please do not reply to this email, instead read the instructions at the > bottom of this note, and send any questions to postnews@dejanews.com).] > > You have requested that the following article be posted to Usenet via the > Posting Service at Deja News. Your article is currently sitting in our > spool waiting for you to authorize it by following the following > instructions: > > TO POST YOUR ARTICLE PLEASE READ AND FOLLOW THESE INSTRUCTIONS: > --------------------------------------------------------------- > - You must reply to this email, including the ENTIRE text of this email in > the reply. (It's okay if your email program inserts characters in the left > hand column, e.g. '>', or whatever). The reply MUST be sent to: > dopost@postnews.dejanews.com > - You must change the Subject: header of your reply to contain the > words: "PLEASE POST" (capitalization doesn't matter). (Note: this is the > Subject header of the message you send to us, not the subject header of the > article you wish to have posted). > > [The following string must not be changed/modified/wrapped/truncated.] > TRANSID:610f60a4ddf544c1320372b7ff27b517a0d1fff4d5ef > ===================================================================== ====== > From: @moa.net > Subject: Re: Information on the upcoming CFV > Newsgroups: news.groups > Message-Id: <855920240.18460@dejanews.com> > Reply-To: @moa.net > Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service > To: cbstone@phoenix.princeton.edu,bill@netagw.com,srb-mods@bcca.org > References: <5dn9l6$bks@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> <33657c0d.964852603@news.pipeline.com> > X-Article-Creation-Date: Fri Feb 14 11:37:22 1997 GMT > X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.60 (ppp-pm01-dy-28.ouhub.moa.net) > X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) > > In article <33657c0d.964852603@news.pipeline.com>, > jimrtex@pipeline.com wrote: > > > > In article <5dn9l6$bks@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> Richard C. Detweiler > > wrote: > > > > >To the readership of soc.religion.bahai, > > > > > >More than likely in a short time a Call For Votes (CFV) for the proposed > > >newsgroup talk.religion.bahai will be posted to this newsgroup. Anyone > > >reading the newsgroup or having access to an e-mail account may vote in > > >this election. If you are planning on voting in this election, I ask that > > >you read this carefully. There are specific meanings in voting yes or no > > >or abstaining in voting for newsgroup creation which differ from those > > >most people expect. This note seeks to explain these differences so that > > >you can vote properly. > > > > Such a curious response to your article. Let's see if I understand > > this: > > > > A would-be poster to your group has several articles rejected by > > the moderators, who suggest alternate language. He accuses the > > moderators of being censors and acting like fascists. > > > > There's more to it than this and you're ignoring the details in > the posted censored messages on news.groups.... > > > This poster becomes the proponent of talk.religion.bahai. > > > > The RFD is posted (17 January). Because of technical problems, the > > proponent is unable to participate in the early part of the discussion > > in which several news.groupies speculate that the group might be, > > could be, darn it, it *would* be a fine addition to Usenet. > > > > There was confusion, not caused by me, over where to post a response. > Many people emailed me directly. I responded and posted to news.groups > immediately in all cases.... To say I did not participate early on > is false. It did take a few days to figure out I had ISP problems, > but I was in contact with my group-mentor Christopher Stone and > followed his advice. I also contact UVV and Bill Aten or someone else > on his behalf advised me. > > > After two weeks, the proponent shows up. He complains about being > > censored in soc.religion.bahai. Some people ask him what he is > > talking about. > > > > You're ignoring my postings to soc.religion.bahai and news.groups. > I search of the files on record on news.groups (you have to read > them to get the right dates) shows I was involved and responding > all along.... > > > The proponent files (6 February) the questionaire with the UVV > > indicating the course of the RFD discussion, what issues have > > been raised, etc. and that he is ready to go forward to the CFV > > (never having seen one of these questionaires, their content is > > mostly speculation on my part, inferred from comments that > > proponents have posted here. Moreover, Bill Aten of the UVV, > > tracks the filing of the questionaire as a stage in the RFD/CFV > > process, preceding the assignment of a votetaker). Note that > > the questionaire was filed 1 week after the proponent had participated > > in the RFD discussion. > > > > Not true again.... > > > The proponent (9 February) posts several instances of the articles > > that he had submitted and had been recjected, along with related > > correspondence between him and the moderator. The moderators > > have responded in some cases. > > > > Over twenty.... Only two responses to trivial, nitpicking matters.... > No response at all to the obvious examples of ideological control. > > > A moderator posts a truly restrained rationale as to his understanding > > of why a yes or no vote should be cast. If anything, it would appear > > that he was attempting to head off No votes by those who might > > have been offended by an implication that they were being duped > > by a moderator practicing censorship. > > > > I'm not sure of this characterization. Others more knowledgeable > than I about the voting process have regarded it as an attempt > to manipulate the voting. Someone at UVV will have to judge it, > I hope. > > > And the response to this has been most curious indeed. > > > > >The whole process of newsgroup creation is provided as a means to ensure > > >that there is sufficient interest in a proposed group and that when > > >created, the newsgroup is created consistent with some norms maintained > > >by those who volunteer to oversee Usenet. The Call For Votes is used to > > >determine if this sufficient interest exists. Bearing this in mind, > > >the Usenet votetakers ask that voters use the following definitions in > > >deciding how to vote: > > > > I think a broader basis for participation would be whether you believe > > or disbelieve that a proposed change will improve Usenet, particularly > > for subject areas that you are interested in. Obviously, provision of > > a group that you would post in or read would usually be considered > > an improvement, and result in a Yes vote. > > > > And as you indicated, this is an ethical basis, with the technical > > basis for participating in the vote, much broader. > > > > >With this in mind, it is expected that those voting will vote in the > > >following manner: > > > > > >"Yes" - vote yes if you intend to take part in the newsgroup when formed. > > > > Slightly narrow in that there can be instances when a Yes vote might > > be warranted for providing a better organization to Usenet even when > > you would not personally participate in the new group. > > > > >Abstain - Do not vote if you will not use the newsgroup OR you do not support > > > its existance. > > > > Abstain if there is no compelling reason to vote Yes or No. > > > > >"No" - vote no ONLY if you object to the newsgroup on grounds of improper > > > adherrence to Usenet newsgroup conventions. In other words if you > > > think the proposed charter is too vague or restrictive, if the > > > name will violate the established norms of the Usenet heirarchy, > etc. > > > > I would include if you feel that the proponent has failed to > > demonstrate a need for the group or has been abusive of the process. > > > > This and your earlier posts demonstrate clearly that you are adamantly > opposed to talk.religion.baha on an ideological basis. To pretend > that it's because I have failed to "demonstrate a need" ignores not > only my many postings but those of the several other people now who > have stated in one way or another, often very directly, that > soc.religion.bahai is heavily censored and controlled by the > moderators. I have not abused the process. I have consulted > constantly all along with Christopher Stone and the UVV when I felt > it was necessary. I see this charge as a desperate stratagem on your > part to oppose the forming of talk.religion.bahai for unacceptable > reasons. > > > -- > > Jim Riley > > -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- > https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet > > ===================================================================== ====== > > WHAT TO DO IF YOU DID NOT REQUEST THIS POSTING: > ---------------------------------------------- > [This article has NOT yet been posted to Usenet. The reason we send this > email is to authenticate the author of articles we post.] > > If you did not request this article be posted to Usenet via the Deja News > service, that could mean someone using our service forged your address and > attempted to make this article appear as if you had posted it. The person > who did this used the IP address we log in the X-Originating-IP-Addr: > header field of the posting. This person may be able to be traced if you > contact the system administrator at their site. > > If you would like us to try to find out if someone forged your address, > please write to postnews@dejanews.com, include a statement like "I didn't > write this, please find out who did", and include this entire message. We > will try to help you as much as we can, but we are not a legal body and > other system administrators are not always cooperative, so we cannot > promise any results. We are sorry for any inconvenience. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Fri Feb 14 08:41:38 1997 BCC: @MOA.net Message-ID: <33046B92.6664@moa.net> Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 08:41:38 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dopost@grunt.dejanews.com Subject: please post References: <199702141137.FAA18486@grunt.dejanews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 10620 dopost@grunt.dejanews.com wrote: > > [A reply is required to post your article. (If you did not request this, > please do not reply to this email, instead read the instructions at the > bottom of this note, and send any questions to postnews@dejanews.com).] > > You have requested that the following article be posted to Usenet via the > Posting Service at Deja News. Your article is currently sitting in our > spool waiting for you to authorize it by following the following > instructions: > > TO POST YOUR ARTICLE PLEASE READ AND FOLLOW THESE INSTRUCTIONS: > --------------------------------------------------------------- > - You must reply to this email, including the ENTIRE text of this email in > the reply. (It's okay if your email program inserts characters in the left > hand column, e.g. '>', or whatever). The reply MUST be sent to: > dopost@postnews.dejanews.com > - You must change the Subject: header of your reply to contain the > words: "PLEASE POST" (capitalization doesn't matter). (Note: this is the > Subject header of the message you send to us, not the subject header of the > article you wish to have posted). > > [The following string must not be changed/modified/wrapped/truncated.] > TRANSID:610f60a4ddf544c1320372b7ff27b517a0d1fff4d5ef > ===================================================================== ====== > From: @moa.net > Subject: Re: Information on the upcoming CFV > Newsgroups: news.groups > Message-Id: <855920240.18460@dejanews.com> > Reply-To: @moa.net > Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service > To: cbstone@phoenix.princeton.edu,bill@netagw.com,srb-mods@bcca.org > References: <5dn9l6$bks@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> <33657c0d.964852603@news.pipeline.com> > X-Article-Creation-Date: Fri Feb 14 11:37:22 1997 GMT > X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.60 (ppp-pm01-dy-28.ouhub.moa.net) > X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) > > In article <33657c0d.964852603@news.pipeline.com>, > jimrtex@pipeline.com wrote: > > > > In article <5dn9l6$bks@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> Richard C. Detweiler > > wrote: > > > > >To the readership of soc.religion.bahai, > > > > > >More than likely in a short time a Call For Votes (CFV) for the proposed > > >newsgroup talk.religion.bahai will be posted to this newsgroup. Anyone > > >reading the newsgroup or having access to an e-mail account may vote in > > >this election. If you are planning on voting in this election, I ask that > > >you read this carefully. There are specific meanings in voting yes or no > > >or abstaining in voting for newsgroup creation which differ from those > > >most people expect. This note seeks to explain these differences so that > > >you can vote properly. > > > > Such a curious response to your article. Let's see if I understand > > this: > > > > A would-be poster to your group has several articles rejected by > > the moderators, who suggest alternate language. He accuses the > > moderators of being censors and acting like fascists. > > > > There's more to it than this and you're ignoring the details in > the posted censored messages on news.groups.... > > > This poster becomes the proponent of talk.religion.bahai. > > > > The RFD is posted (17 January). Because of technical problems, the > > proponent is unable to participate in the early part of the discussion > > in which several news.groupies speculate that the group might be, > > could be, darn it, it *would* be a fine addition to Usenet. > > > > There was confusion, not caused by me, over where to post a response. > Many people emailed me directly. I responded and posted to news.groups > immediately in all cases.... To say I did not participate early on > is false. It did take a few days to figure out I had ISP problems, > but I was in contact with my group-mentor Christopher Stone and > followed his advice. I also contact UVV and Bill Aten or someone else > on his behalf advised me. > > > After two weeks, the proponent shows up. He complains about being > > censored in soc.religion.bahai. Some people ask him what he is > > talking about. > > > > You're ignoring my postings to soc.religion.bahai and news.groups. > I search of the files on record on news.groups (you have to read > them to get the right dates) shows I was involved and responding > all along.... > > > The proponent files (6 February) the questionaire with the UVV > > indicating the course of the RFD discussion, what issues have > > been raised, etc. and that he is ready to go forward to the CFV > > (never having seen one of these questionaires, their content is > > mostly speculation on my part, inferred from comments that > > proponents have posted here. Moreover, Bill Aten of the UVV, > > tracks the filing of the questionaire as a stage in the RFD/CFV > > process, preceding the assignment of a votetaker). Note that > > the questionaire was filed 1 week after the proponent had participated > > in the RFD discussion. > > > > Not true again.... > > > The proponent (9 February) posts several instances of the articles > > that he had submitted and had been recjected, along with related > > correspondence between him and the moderator. The moderators > > have responded in some cases. > > > > Over twenty.... Only two responses to trivial, nitpicking matters.... > No response at all to the obvious examples of ideological control. > > > A moderator posts a truly restrained rationale as to his understanding > > of why a yes or no vote should be cast. If anything, it would appear > > that he was attempting to head off No votes by those who might > > have been offended by an implication that they were being duped > > by a moderator practicing censorship. > > > > I'm not sure of this characterization. Others more knowledgeable > than I about the voting process have regarded it as an attempt > to manipulate the voting. Someone at UVV will have to judge it, > I hope. > > > And the response to this has been most curious indeed. > > > > >The whole process of newsgroup creation is provided as a means to ensure > > >that there is sufficient interest in a proposed group and that when > > >created, the newsgroup is created consistent with some norms maintained > > >by those who volunteer to oversee Usenet. The Call For Votes is used to > > >determine if this sufficient interest exists. Bearing this in mind, > > >the Usenet votetakers ask that voters use the following definitions in > > >deciding how to vote: > > > > I think a broader basis for participation would be whether you believe > > or disbelieve that a proposed change will improve Usenet, particularly > > for subject areas that you are interested in. Obviously, provision of > > a group that you would post in or read would usually be considered > > an improvement, and result in a Yes vote. > > > > And as you indicated, this is an ethical basis, with the technical > > basis for participating in the vote, much broader. > > > > >With this in mind, it is expected that those voting will vote in the > > >following manner: > > > > > >"Yes" - vote yes if you intend to take part in the newsgroup when formed. > > > > Slightly narrow in that there can be instances when a Yes vote might > > be warranted for providing a better organization to Usenet even when > > you would not personally participate in the new group. > > > > >Abstain - Do not vote if you will not use the newsgroup OR you do not support > > > its existance. > > > > Abstain if there is no compelling reason to vote Yes or No. > > > > >"No" - vote no ONLY if you object to the newsgroup on grounds of improper > > > adherrence to Usenet newsgroup conventions. In other words if you > > > think the proposed charter is too vague or restrictive, if the > > > name will violate the established norms of the Usenet heirarchy, > etc. > > > > I would include if you feel that the proponent has failed to > > demonstrate a need for the group or has been abusive of the process. > > > > This and your earlier posts demonstrate clearly that you are adamantly > opposed to talk.religion.baha on an ideological basis. To pretend > that it's because I have failed to "demonstrate a need" ignores not > only my many postings but those of the several other people now who > have stated in one way or another, often very directly, that > soc.religion.bahai is heavily censored and controlled by the > moderators. I have not abused the process. I have consulted > constantly all along with Christopher Stone and the UVV when I felt > it was necessary. I see this charge as a desperate stratagem on your > part to oppose the forming of talk.religion.bahai for unacceptable > reasons. > > > -- > > Jim Riley > > -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- > https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet > > ===================================================================== ====== > > WHAT TO DO IF YOU DID NOT REQUEST THIS POSTING: > ---------------------------------------------- > [This article has NOT yet been posted to Usenet. The reason we send this > email is to authenticate the author of articles we post.] > > If you did not request this article be posted to Usenet via the Deja News > service, that could mean someone using our service forged your address and > attempted to make this article appear as if you had posted it. The person > who did this used the IP address we log in the X-Originating-IP-Addr: > header field of the posting. This person may be able to be traced if you > contact the system administrator at their site. > > If you would like us to try to find out if someone forged your address, > please write to postnews@dejanews.com, include a statement like "I didn't > write this, please find out who did", and include this entire message. We > will try to help you as much as we can, but we are not a legal body and > other system administrators are not always cooperative, so we cannot > promise any results. We are sorry for any inconvenience. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Fri Feb 14 08:42:07 1997 BCC: @MOA.net Message-ID: <33046BAF.628D@moa.net> Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 08:42:07 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dopost@grunt.dejanews.com Subject: please post References: <199702141148.FAA18773@grunt.dejanews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 4467 dopost@grunt.dejanews.com wrote: > > [A reply is required to post your article. (If you did not request this, > please do not reply to this email, instead read the instructions at the > bottom of this note, and send any questions to postnews@dejanews.com).] > > You have requested that the following article be posted to Usenet via the > Posting Service at Deja News. Your article is currently sitting in our > spool waiting for you to authorize it by following the following > instructions: > > TO POST YOUR ARTICLE PLEASE READ AND FOLLOW THESE INSTRUCTIONS: > --------------------------------------------------------------- > - You must reply to this email, including the ENTIRE text of this email in > the reply. (It's okay if your email program inserts characters in the left > hand column, e.g. '>', or whatever). The reply MUST be sent to: > dopost@postnews.dejanews.com > - You must change the Subject: header of your reply to contain the > words: "PLEASE POST" (capitalization doesn't matter). (Note: this is the > Subject header of the message you send to us, not the subject header of the > article you wish to have posted). > > [The following string must not be changed/modified/wrapped/truncated.] > TRANSID:216fb0f47df5f4713f6d8b1a285b238b18b74007b444 > ===================================================================== ====== > From: @moa.net > Subject: Re: Talk.Religion.BAHAI-NO? > Newsgroups: news.groups > Message-Id: <855920896.18760@dejanews.com> > Reply-To: @moa.net > Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service > To: srb-mods@bcca.org,pjohnson@leo.vsla.edu > References: <5dqiue$dim@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> <1997Feb12.163021.21652@leo.vsla.edu> > X-Article-Creation-Date: Fri Feb 14 11:48:16 1997 GMT > X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.60 (ppp-pm01-dy-28.ouhub.moa.net) > X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) > > In article <1997Feb12.163021.21652@leo.vsla.edu>, > pjohnson@leo.vsla.edu (K. Paul Johnson) wrote: > > > > rdetweil@primenet.com writes: > > [clip] > > > The bottom line is that the new rules adopted by s.r.b. last > > fall were in consequence of a crackdown on discourse in > > cyberspace by the Baha'i administration. (I say consequence > > rather than result, since I know only of the sequence of events > > and not the undisclosed reasons.) Now some Baha'is are opposing an > > unmoderated newsgroup for reasons related to their desire to > > control the image of the Baha'i Faith. That's a problem for > > free speech advocates. > > It's also a problem for those who believe in religious freedom > of conscience, as I do.... The Bahai Writings are most eloquent > in this regard. Yet the reality, on srb, is woefully out of > line with the Bahai written word.... Most good Bahais are > often utterly unaware of this situtation and the complexities > involved. > > Frederick Glaysher > Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > > -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- > https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet > > ===================================================================== ====== > > WHAT TO DO IF YOU DID NOT REQUEST THIS POSTING: > ---------------------------------------------- > [This article has NOT yet been posted to Usenet. The reason we send this > email is to authenticate the author of articles we post.] > > If you did not request this article be posted to Usenet via the Deja News > service, that could mean someone using our service forged your address and > attempted to make this article appear as if you had posted it. The person > who did this used the IP address we log in the X-Originating-IP-Addr: > header field of the posting. This person may be able to be traced if you > contact the system administrator at their site. > > If you would like us to try to find out if someone forged your address, > please write to postnews@dejanews.com, include a statement like "I didn't > write this, please find out who did", and include this entire message. We > will try to help you as much as we can, but we are not a legal body and > other system administrators are not always cooperative, so we cannot > promise any results. We are sorry for any inconvenience. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Fri Feb 14 08:43:27 1997 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.60) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Fri, 14 Feb 1997 08:34:40 -0500 Message-ID: <33046BAF.628D@moa.net> Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 08:42:07 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dopost@grunt.dejanews.com Subject: please post References: <199702141148.FAA18773@grunt.dejanews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 4465 dopost@grunt.dejanews.com wrote: > > [A reply is required to post your article. (If you did not request this, > please do not reply to this email, instead read the instructions at the > bottom of this note, and send any questions to postnews@dejanews.com).] > > You have requested that the following article be posted to Usenet via the > Posting Service at Deja News. Your article is currently sitting in our > spool waiting for you to authorize it by following the following > instructions: > > TO POST YOUR ARTICLE PLEASE READ AND FOLLOW THESE INSTRUCTIONS: > --------------------------------------------------------------- > - You must reply to this email, including the ENTIRE text of this email in > the reply. (It's okay if your email program inserts characters in the left > hand column, e.g. '>', or whatever). The reply MUST be sent to: > dopost@postnews.dejanews.com > - You must change the Subject: header of your reply to contain the > words: "PLEASE POST" (capitalization doesn't matter). (Note: this is the > Subject header of the message you send to us, not the subject header of the > article you wish to have posted). > > [The following string must not be changed/modified/wrapped/truncated.] > TRANSID:216fb0f47df5f4713f6d8b1a285b238b18b74007b444 > ===================================================================== ====== > From: @moa.net > Subject: Re: Talk.Religion.BAHAI-NO? > Newsgroups: news.groups > Message-Id: <855920896.18760@dejanews.com> > Reply-To: @moa.net > Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service > To: srb-mods@bcca.org,pjohnson@leo.vsla.edu > References: <5dqiue$dim@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> <1997Feb12.163021.21652@leo.vsla.edu> > X-Article-Creation-Date: Fri Feb 14 11:48:16 1997 GMT > X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.60 (ppp-pm01-dy-28.ouhub.moa.net) > X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) > > In article <1997Feb12.163021.21652@leo.vsla.edu>, > pjohnson@leo.vsla.edu (K. Paul Johnson) wrote: > > > > rdetweil@primenet.com writes: > > [clip] > > > The bottom line is that the new rules adopted by s.r.b. last > > fall were in consequence of a crackdown on discourse in > > cyberspace by the Baha'i administration. (I say consequence > > rather than result, since I know only of the sequence of events > > and not the undisclosed reasons.) Now some Baha'is are opposing an > > unmoderated newsgroup for reasons related to their desire to > > control the image of the Baha'i Faith. That's a problem for > > free speech advocates. > > It's also a problem for those who believe in religious freedom > of conscience, as I do.... The Bahai Writings are most eloquent > in this regard. Yet the reality, on srb, is woefully out of > line with the Bahai written word.... Most good Bahais are > often utterly unaware of this situtation and the complexities > involved. > > Frederick Glaysher > Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > > -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- > https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet > > ===================================================================== ====== > > WHAT TO DO IF YOU DID NOT REQUEST THIS POSTING: > ---------------------------------------------- > [This article has NOT yet been posted to Usenet. The reason we send this > email is to authenticate the author of articles we post.] > > If you did not request this article be posted to Usenet via the Deja News > service, that could mean someone using our service forged your address and > attempted to make this article appear as if you had posted it. The person > who did this used the IP address we log in the X-Originating-IP-Addr: > header field of the posting. This person may be able to be traced if you > contact the system administrator at their site. > > If you would like us to try to find out if someone forged your address, > please write to postnews@dejanews.com, include a statement like "I didn't > write this, please find out who did", and include this entire message. We > will try to help you as much as we can, but we are not a legal body and > other system administrators are not always cooperative, so we cannot > promise any results. We are sorry for any inconvenience. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Sat Feb 15 08:13:10 1997 BCC: @MOA.net Message-ID: <3305B666.4498@moa.net> Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 08:13:10 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dopost@grunt.dejanews.com Subject: please post References: <199702150944.DAA32583@grunt.dejanews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 5781 dopost@grunt.dejanews.com wrote: > > [A reply is required to post your article. (If you did not request this, > please do not reply to this email, instead read the instructions at the > bottom of this note, and send any questions to postnews@dejanews.com).] > > You have requested that the following article be posted to Usenet via the > Posting Service at Deja News. Your article is currently sitting in our > spool waiting for you to authorize it by following the following > instructions: > > TO POST YOUR ARTICLE PLEASE READ AND FOLLOW THESE INSTRUCTIONS: > --------------------------------------------------------------- > - You must reply to this email, including the ENTIRE text of this email in > the reply. (It's okay if your email program inserts characters in the left > hand column, e.g. '>', or whatever). The reply MUST be sent to: > dopost@postnews.dejanews.com > - You must change the Subject: header of your reply to contain the > words: "PLEASE POST" (capitalization doesn't matter). (Note: this is the > Subject header of the message you send to us, not the subject header of the > article you wish to have posted). > > [The following string must not be changed/modified/wrapped/truncated.] > TRANSID:f1df60844d850441a98d0f723f77220aa93887ceb7da > ===================================================================== ====== > From: @moa.net > Subject: Re: t.r.bahai - NEEDED > Newsgroups: news.groups > Message-Id: <855999837.32571@dejanews.com> > Reply-To: @moa.net > Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service > To: steve.burgess@pixie.co.za,srb-mods@bcca.org > References: <19970214064401.BAA02439@ladder01.news.aol.com> <5e1u8h$k5c@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> <5e23h6$t1l@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> > X-Article-Creation-Date: Sat Feb 15 09:43:57 1997 GMT > X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.34 (ppp-pm01-dy-2.ouhub.moa.net) > X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) > > In article <5e23h6$t1l@nnrp1.news.primenet.com>, > Dr Steve Burgess wrote: > > > > Rick Shaut wrote (inpart quoting a letter from the Universal House of > > Justice about the Talisman affair): > > > > >"Through such activities, and the mutual support that they give to one > > another, these friends have increasingly assumed the appearance of a > > dissident group of Baha'is who are attempting to arouse widespread > > dissatisfaction in the community and thereby to bring about changes in > > the structure and principles of Baha'i administration, making it accord more > > closely with their personal notions. Such an activity is closely analogous > > to the pursuit of a partisan political program, an activity which is > > accepted and even admired in most societies, but is entirely antithetical > > to the spirit of the Baha'i Faith. It promotes an atmosphere of > > contention, and Baha'u'llah has expressly stated: "Conflict and contention > > are categorically forbidden in His Book."' > > > > >I can only state that this letter describes, quite accurately, the kinds of > activities I saw when Talisman I was still in operation. > > > > Fred Glaysher wrote (in response to RobbbRobbb@aol.com's assertion that > > moderation of soc.religion.bahai constituted censorship and that he was > > thus supporting the notion of tal.religion.bahai. > > > > > I appreciate your honest contribution. You're a rare Bahai.... > > > > > I found the juxtaposition illustrative! > > > > And I find your insinuation improper. Please have enough courage > to come out and say what you think so that we all might have the > benefit of your honest consultation. > > Do you think I'm a covenant breaker? Do you think I'm trying to > change the administration? Destroy it? Soc.religion.bahai is not > elected or appointed, and it is not part of the administration.... > lest you forget it.... > > Instead of smearing me with unpalatable associations, which you > don't properly discuss, let's hear what you think. I never > participated, or even knew of the existence > of Talisman I, incidentally, until much after its demise.... > I feel embarrassed even to have to say that.... > > > Regards > > Steve > > -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- > https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet > > ===================================================================== ====== > > WHAT TO DO IF YOU DID NOT REQUEST THIS POSTING: > ---------------------------------------------- > [This article has NOT yet been posted to Usenet. The reason we send this > email is to authenticate the author of articles we post.] > > If you did not request this article be posted to Usenet via the Deja News > service, that could mean someone using our service forged your address and > attempted to make this article appear as if you had posted it. The person > who did this used the IP address we log in the X-Originating-IP-Addr: > header field of the posting. This person may be able to be traced if you > contact the system administrator at their site. > > If you would like us to try to find out if someone forged your address, > please write to postnews@dejanews.com, include a statement like "I didn't > write this, please find out who did", and include this entire message. We > will try to help you as much as we can, but we are not a legal body and > other system administrators are not always cooperative, so we cannot > promise any results. We are sorry for any inconvenience. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Sat Feb 15 08:18:29 1997 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.34) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Sat, 15 Feb 1997 08:05:43 -0500 Message-ID: <3305B666.4498@moa.net> Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 08:13:10 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dopost@grunt.dejanews.com Subject: please post References: <199702150944.DAA32583@grunt.dejanews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 5779 dopost@grunt.dejanews.com wrote: > > [A reply is required to post your article. (If you did not request this, > please do not reply to this email, instead read the instructions at the > bottom of this note, and send any questions to postnews@dejanews.com).] > > You have requested that the following article be posted to Usenet via the > Posting Service at Deja News. Your article is currently sitting in our > spool waiting for you to authorize it by following the following > instructions: > > TO POST YOUR ARTICLE PLEASE READ AND FOLLOW THESE INSTRUCTIONS: > --------------------------------------------------------------- > - You must reply to this email, including the ENTIRE text of this email in > the reply. (It's okay if your email program inserts characters in the left > hand column, e.g. '>', or whatever). The reply MUST be sent to: > dopost@postnews.dejanews.com > - You must change the Subject: header of your reply to contain the > words: "PLEASE POST" (capitalization doesn't matter). (Note: this is the > Subject header of the message you send to us, not the subject header of the > article you wish to have posted). > > [The following string must not be changed/modified/wrapped/truncated.] > TRANSID:f1df60844d850441a98d0f723f77220aa93887ceb7da > ===================================================================== ====== > From: @moa.net > Subject: Re: t.r.bahai - NEEDED > Newsgroups: news.groups > Message-Id: <855999837.32571@dejanews.com> > Reply-To: @moa.net > Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service > To: steve.burgess@pixie.co.za,srb-mods@bcca.org > References: <19970214064401.BAA02439@ladder01.news.aol.com> <5e1u8h$k5c@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> <5e23h6$t1l@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> > X-Article-Creation-Date: Sat Feb 15 09:43:57 1997 GMT > X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.34 (ppp-pm01-dy-2.ouhub.moa.net) > X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) > > In article <5e23h6$t1l@nnrp1.news.primenet.com>, > Dr Steve Burgess wrote: > > > > Rick Shaut wrote (inpart quoting a letter from the Universal House of > > Justice about the Talisman affair): > > > > >"Through such activities, and the mutual support that they give to one > > another, these friends have increasingly assumed the appearance of a > > dissident group of Baha'is who are attempting to arouse widespread > > dissatisfaction in the community and thereby to bring about changes in > > the structure and principles of Baha'i administration, making it accord more > > closely with their personal notions. Such an activity is closely analogous > > to the pursuit of a partisan political program, an activity which is > > accepted and even admired in most societies, but is entirely antithetical > > to the spirit of the Baha'i Faith. It promotes an atmosphere of > > contention, and Baha'u'llah has expressly stated: "Conflict and contention > > are categorically forbidden in His Book."' > > > > >I can only state that this letter describes, quite accurately, the kinds of > activities I saw when Talisman I was still in operation. > > > > Fred Glaysher wrote (in response to RobbbRobbb@aol.com's assertion that > > moderation of soc.religion.bahai constituted censorship and that he was > > thus supporting the notion of tal.religion.bahai. > > > > > I appreciate your honest contribution. You're a rare Bahai.... > > > > > I found the juxtaposition illustrative! > > > > And I find your insinuation improper. Please have enough courage > to come out and say what you think so that we all might have the > benefit of your honest consultation. > > Do you think I'm a covenant breaker? Do you think I'm trying to > change the administration? Destroy it? Soc.religion.bahai is not > elected or appointed, and it is not part of the administration.... > lest you forget it.... > > Instead of smearing me with unpalatable associations, which you > don't properly discuss, let's hear what you think. I never > participated, or even knew of the existence > of Talisman I, incidentally, until much after its demise.... > I feel embarrassed even to have to say that.... > > > Regards > > Steve > > -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- > https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet > > ===================================================================== ====== > > WHAT TO DO IF YOU DID NOT REQUEST THIS POSTING: > ---------------------------------------------- > [This article has NOT yet been posted to Usenet. The reason we send this > email is to authenticate the author of articles we post.] > > If you did not request this article be posted to Usenet via the Deja News > service, that could mean someone using our service forged your address and > attempted to make this article appear as if you had posted it. The person > who did this used the IP address we log in the X-Originating-IP-Addr: > header field of the posting. This person may be able to be traced if you > contact the system administrator at their site. > > If you would like us to try to find out if someone forged your address, > please write to postnews@dejanews.com, include a statement like "I didn't > write this, please find out who did", and include this entire message. We > will try to help you as much as we can, but we are not a legal body and > other system administrators are not always cooperative, so we cannot > promise any results. We are sorry for any inconvenience. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Sat Feb 15 08:18:33 1997 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.34) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Sat, 15 Feb 1997 08:06:19 -0500 Message-ID: <3305B689.3F73@moa.net> Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 08:13:45 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dopost@grunt.dejanews.com Subject: please post References: <199702150953.DAA32697@grunt.dejanews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 6070 dopost@grunt.dejanews.com wrote: > > [A reply is required to post your article. (If you did not request this, > please do not reply to this email, instead read the instructions at the > bottom of this note, and send any questions to postnews@dejanews.com).] > > You have requested that the following article be posted to Usenet via the > Posting Service at Deja News. Your article is currently sitting in our > spool waiting for you to authorize it by following the following > instructions: > > TO POST YOUR ARTICLE PLEASE READ AND FOLLOW THESE INSTRUCTIONS: > --------------------------------------------------------------- > - You must reply to this email, including the ENTIRE text of this email in > the reply. (It's okay if your email program inserts characters in the left > hand column, e.g. '>', or whatever). The reply MUST be sent to: > dopost@postnews.dejanews.com > - You must change the Subject: header of your reply to contain the > words: "PLEASE POST" (capitalization doesn't matter). (Note: this is the > Subject header of the message you send to us, not the subject header of the > article you wish to have posted). > > [The following string must not be changed/modified/wrapped/truncated.] > TRANSID:516f40c4dd85f4c161dd19a427cd78d0361eda921b27 > ===================================================================== ====== > From: @moa.net > Subject: Re: T.R.BAHAI-NO? > Newsgroups: news.groups > Message-Id: <856000388.32683@dejanews.com> > Reply-To: @moa.net > Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service > To: rcmolden@students.wisc.edu,srb-mods@bcca.org > References: <5dqiue$dim@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> <1997Feb12.163021.21652@leo.vsla.edu> <5e1u4l$jvg@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> <5e23fe$sv2@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> > X-Article-Creation-Date: Sat Feb 15 09:53:08 1997 GMT > X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.34 (ppp-pm01-dy-2.ouhub.moa.net) > X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) > > In article <5e23fe$sv2@nnrp1.news.primenet.com>, > rcmolden@students.wisc.edu (Robert Moldenhauer) wrote: > > > > [ crossposted to news.groups -mods] > > > > I have to ask the question - "Where's the beef?", we are presented > > with claims of censorship, but when pressed no solid examples are > > given. The rejected posts I have seen consist of the following: > > > > 1) Personal attacks, forbidden by this newsgroups charter. > > 2) Posts by the "Orthodox Baha'is" > > 3) Off topic posts - something not addressing the Baha'i Faith. > > > > My own experiences have been that my rejected messages fell within 1 > > and 3. > > > > I'm very tired of all these claims of censorship, either produce a > > solid example that doesn't fall into 1 through 3 above, or stop making > > the claim. > > > > There are over 20 solid examples posted to news.groups. They were > rejected by the moderators of soc.religion.bahai. They fall into > your number 1 category. If you're receiving soc.religion.bahai > on an email echo, you're at a great disadvantage in this discussion. > Somehow get access to the USEnet newsgroup news.groups.... If > you're expecting them to appear on soc.religion.bahai, you need to > remember they were *rejected* by the people running it.... > > [clip] > > > > > > >In article <1997Feb12.163021.21652@leo.vsla.edu>, > > > pjohnson@leo.vsla.edu (K. Paul Johnson) wrote: > > >> > > >> rdetweil@primenet.com writes: > > > > > >[clip] > > > > > >> The bottom line is that the new rules adopted by s.r.b. last > > >> fall were in consequence of a crackdown on discourse in > > >> cyberspace by the Baha'i administration. (I say consequence > > >> rather than result, since I know only of the sequence of events > > >> and not the undisclosed reasons.) Now some Baha'is are opposing an > > >> unmoderated newsgroup for reasons related to their desire to > > >> control the image of the Baha'i Faith. That's a problem for > > >> free speech advocates. > > > > > >It's also a problem for those who believe in religious freedom > > >of conscience, as I do.... The Bahai Writings are most eloquent > > >in this regard. Yet the reality, on srb, is woefully out of > > >line with the Bahai written word.... Most good Bahais are > > >often utterly unaware of this situtation and the complexities > > >involved. > > > > > >Frederick Glaysher > > >Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > > > > > Frederick Glaysher > Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > > -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- > https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet > > ===================================================================== ====== > > WHAT TO DO IF YOU DID NOT REQUEST THIS POSTING: > ---------------------------------------------- > [This article has NOT yet been posted to Usenet. The reason we send this > email is to authenticate the author of articles we post.] > > If you did not request this article be posted to Usenet via the Deja News > service, that could mean someone using our service forged your address and > attempted to make this article appear as if you had posted it. The person > who did this used the IP address we log in the X-Originating-IP-Addr: > header field of the posting. This person may be able to be traced if you > contact the system administrator at their site. > > If you would like us to try to find out if someone forged your address, > please write to postnews@dejanews.com, include a statement like "I didn't > write this, please find out who did", and include this entire message. We > will try to help you as much as we can, but we are not a legal body and > other system administrators are not always cooperative, so we cannot > promise any results. We are sorry for any inconvenience. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Sat Feb 15 08:13:45 1997 BCC: @MOA.net Message-ID: <3305B689.3F73@moa.net> Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 08:13:45 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dopost@grunt.dejanews.com Subject: please post References: <199702150953.DAA32697@grunt.dejanews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 6072 dopost@grunt.dejanews.com wrote: > > [A reply is required to post your article. (If you did not request this, > please do not reply to this email, instead read the instructions at the > bottom of this note, and send any questions to postnews@dejanews.com).] > > You have requested that the following article be posted to Usenet via the > Posting Service at Deja News. Your article is currently sitting in our > spool waiting for you to authorize it by following the following > instructions: > > TO POST YOUR ARTICLE PLEASE READ AND FOLLOW THESE INSTRUCTIONS: > --------------------------------------------------------------- > - You must reply to this email, including the ENTIRE text of this email in > the reply. (It's okay if your email program inserts characters in the left > hand column, e.g. '>', or whatever). The reply MUST be sent to: > dopost@postnews.dejanews.com > - You must change the Subject: header of your reply to contain the > words: "PLEASE POST" (capitalization doesn't matter). (Note: this is the > Subject header of the message you send to us, not the subject header of the > article you wish to have posted). > > [The following string must not be changed/modified/wrapped/truncated.] > TRANSID:516f40c4dd85f4c161dd19a427cd78d0361eda921b27 > ===================================================================== ====== > From: @moa.net > Subject: Re: T.R.BAHAI-NO? > Newsgroups: news.groups > Message-Id: <856000388.32683@dejanews.com> > Reply-To: @moa.net > Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service > To: rcmolden@students.wisc.edu,srb-mods@bcca.org > References: <5dqiue$dim@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> <1997Feb12.163021.21652@leo.vsla.edu> <5e1u4l$jvg@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> <5e23fe$sv2@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> > X-Article-Creation-Date: Sat Feb 15 09:53:08 1997 GMT > X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.34 (ppp-pm01-dy-2.ouhub.moa.net) > X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) > > In article <5e23fe$sv2@nnrp1.news.primenet.com>, > rcmolden@students.wisc.edu (Robert Moldenhauer) wrote: > > > > [ crossposted to news.groups -mods] > > > > I have to ask the question - "Where's the beef?", we are presented > > with claims of censorship, but when pressed no solid examples are > > given. The rejected posts I have seen consist of the following: > > > > 1) Personal attacks, forbidden by this newsgroups charter. > > 2) Posts by the "Orthodox Baha'is" > > 3) Off topic posts - something not addressing the Baha'i Faith. > > > > My own experiences have been that my rejected messages fell within 1 > > and 3. > > > > I'm very tired of all these claims of censorship, either produce a > > solid example that doesn't fall into 1 through 3 above, or stop making > > the claim. > > > > There are over 20 solid examples posted to news.groups. They were > rejected by the moderators of soc.religion.bahai. They fall into > your number 1 category. If you're receiving soc.religion.bahai > on an email echo, you're at a great disadvantage in this discussion. > Somehow get access to the USEnet newsgroup news.groups.... If > you're expecting them to appear on soc.religion.bahai, you need to > remember they were *rejected* by the people running it.... > > [clip] > > > > > > >In article <1997Feb12.163021.21652@leo.vsla.edu>, > > > pjohnson@leo.vsla.edu (K. Paul Johnson) wrote: > > >> > > >> rdetweil@primenet.com writes: > > > > > >[clip] > > > > > >> The bottom line is that the new rules adopted by s.r.b. last > > >> fall were in consequence of a crackdown on discourse in > > >> cyberspace by the Baha'i administration. (I say consequence > > >> rather than result, since I know only of the sequence of events > > >> and not the undisclosed reasons.) Now some Baha'is are opposing an > > >> unmoderated newsgroup for reasons related to their desire to > > >> control the image of the Baha'i Faith. That's a problem for > > >> free speech advocates. > > > > > >It's also a problem for those who believe in religious freedom > > >of conscience, as I do.... The Bahai Writings are most eloquent > > >in this regard. Yet the reality, on srb, is woefully out of > > >line with the Bahai written word.... Most good Bahais are > > >often utterly unaware of this situtation and the complexities > > >involved. > > > > > >Frederick Glaysher > > >Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > > > > > Frederick Glaysher > Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > > -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- > https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet > > ===================================================================== ====== > > WHAT TO DO IF YOU DID NOT REQUEST THIS POSTING: > ---------------------------------------------- > [This article has NOT yet been posted to Usenet. The reason we send this > email is to authenticate the author of articles we post.] > > If you did not request this article be posted to Usenet via the Deja News > service, that could mean someone using our service forged your address and > attempted to make this article appear as if you had posted it. The person > who did this used the IP address we log in the X-Originating-IP-Addr: > header field of the posting. This person may be able to be traced if you > contact the system administrator at their site. > > If you would like us to try to find out if someone forged your address, > please write to postnews@dejanews.com, include a statement like "I didn't > write this, please find out who did", and include this entire message. We > will try to help you as much as we can, but we are not a legal body and > other system administrators are not always cooperative, so we cannot > promise any results. We are sorry for any inconvenience. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Sat Feb 15 08:14:10 1997 BCC: @MOA.net Message-ID: <3305B6A2.61E3@moa.net> Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 08:14:10 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dopost@grunt.dejanews.com Subject: please post References: <199702150958.DAA32742@grunt.dejanews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 6290 dopost@grunt.dejanews.com wrote: > > [A reply is required to post your article. (If you did not request this, > please do not reply to this email, instead read the instructions at the > bottom of this note, and send any questions to postnews@dejanews.com).] > > You have requested that the following article be posted to Usenet via the > Posting Service at Deja News. Your article is currently sitting in our > spool waiting for you to authorize it by following the following > instructions: > > TO POST YOUR ARTICLE PLEASE READ AND FOLLOW THESE INSTRUCTIONS: > --------------------------------------------------------------- > - You must reply to this email, including the ENTIRE text of this email in > the reply. (It's okay if your email program inserts characters in the left > hand column, e.g. '>', or whatever). The reply MUST be sent to: > dopost@postnews.dejanews.com > - You must change the Subject: header of your reply to contain the > words: "PLEASE POST" (capitalization doesn't matter). (Note: this is the > Subject header of the message you send to us, not the subject header of the > article you wish to have posted). > > [The following string must not be changed/modified/wrapped/truncated.] > TRANSID:51cfa0c43d2514714b85b54c21b9eef75d8e196a510a > ===================================================================== ====== > From: @moa.net > Subject: S.R.Bahai Censored: 2-14-97 > Newsgroups: news.groups > Message-Id: <856000675.32727@dejanews.com> > Reply-To: @moa.net > Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service > To: rdetweil@primenet.com > X-Article-Creation-Date: Sat Feb 15 09:57:56 1997 GMT > X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.34 (ppp-pm01-dy-2.ouhub.moa.net) > X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) > > I ask you to read and judge for yourself. Frederick Glaysher > > Begin censored post: > ------- > > Subject: > Re: A Modest Proposal > Date: > Fri, 14 Feb 1997 07:15:00 -0700 (MST) > From: > "Richard C. Detweiler" > To: > @moa.net > CC: > srb-mods@bcca.org > > > Dear Fred, > > The following is being returned to you. The sarcastic comments are > not conducive to respectful consultation. If you would like to edit > this so that your views are expressed without belittlement of the > previous poster, I would be happy to post it. > > BTW, should I just go ahead and cc: news.groups on all your rejects during > the RFD period or are you happy to do that yourself? :-) > > Dick Detweiler > co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai > > > To: soc-religion-bahai@uunet.uu.net > > Path: ppp-pm01-dy-28.ouhub.moa.net > > From: FG <@moa.net> > > Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai > > Subject: Re: A Modest Proposal > > Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 09:09:27 -0500 > > Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A. > > Lines: 31 > > Message-ID: <33047217.5890@moa.net> > > References: <5du2o7$b0i@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> > <5dvk11$3c1@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> > > Reply-To: @moa.net > > NNTP-Posting-Host: zeus.moa.net > > Mime-Version: 1.0 > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) > > To: Dr Steve Burgess > > Content-Length: 1091 > > > > Dr Steve Burgess wrote: > > > > > > Thank you for posting this message. Again, the air is a bit clearer. > > > Steve > > > > > > > And now it's time to clamp back down before anyone asks any more > > uncomfortable questions.... Or says anything they shouldn't.... > > > > > David Langness wrote: > > > > > > > > [MODERATORS NOTE: The moderators are aware of the inconsistancy > > > > between this post and the call for a hiatus on the discussion of the > > > > Dialogue affair on the newsgroup. However, the moderators are also > very > > > > concerned about fairness and accuracy. Therefore we are forwarding > > > > this note to the newsgroup. It may be inconsistant, but it seems > > > > like the right thing to do. -- mods] > > > > > > > > Dear Friends, > > > > > > > > While I am not currently on srb, a few people have forwarded me > > > > some recent posts regarding Dialogue magazine and the stillborn > > > > article "A Modest Proposal," and I wanted to set the record > > > > straight regarding that article's now-controversial title. > > > > > > > > I feel like eating babies.... We'd save so much money on welfare.... > > > > -- > > Frederick Glaysher > > Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > > > > -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- > https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet > > ===================================================================== ====== > > WHAT TO DO IF YOU DID NOT REQUEST THIS POSTING: > ---------------------------------------------- > [This article has NOT yet been posted to Usenet. The reason we send this > email is to authenticate the author of articles we post.] > > If you did not request this article be posted to Usenet via the Deja News > service, that could mean someone using our service forged your address and > attempted to make this article appear as if you had posted it. The person > who did this used the IP address we log in the X-Originating-IP-Addr: > header field of the posting. This person may be able to be traced if you > contact the system administrator at their site. > > If you would like us to try to find out if someone forged your address, > please write to postnews@dejanews.com, include a statement like "I didn't > write this, please find out who did", and include this entire message. We > will try to help you as much as we can, but we are not a legal body and > other system administrators are not always cooperative, so we cannot > promise any results. We are sorry for any inconvenience. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Sat Feb 15 08:18:37 1997 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.34) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Sat, 15 Feb 1997 08:06:43 -0500 Message-ID: <3305B6A2.61E3@moa.net> Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 08:14:10 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dopost@grunt.dejanews.com Subject: please post References: <199702150958.DAA32742@grunt.dejanews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0004 Content-Length: 6288 dopost@grunt.dejanews.com wrote: > > [A reply is required to post your article. (If you did not request this, > please do not reply to this email, instead read the instructions at the > bottom of this note, and send any questions to postnews@dejanews.com).] > > You have requested that the following article be posted to Usenet via the > Posting Service at Deja News. Your article is currently sitting in our > spool waiting for you to authorize it by following the following > instructions: > > TO POST YOUR ARTICLE PLEASE READ AND FOLLOW THESE INSTRUCTIONS: > --------------------------------------------------------------- > - You must reply to this email, including the ENTIRE text of this email in > the reply. (It's okay if your email program inserts characters in the left > hand column, e.g. '>', or whatever). The reply MUST be sent to: > dopost@postnews.dejanews.com > - You must change the Subject: header of your reply to contain the > words: "PLEASE POST" (capitalization doesn't matter). (Note: this is the > Subject header of the message you send to us, not the subject header of the > article you wish to have posted). > > [The following string must not be changed/modified/wrapped/truncated.] > TRANSID:51cfa0c43d2514714b85b54c21b9eef75d8e196a510a > ===================================================================== ====== > From: @moa.net > Subject: S.R.Bahai Censored: 2-14-97 > Newsgroups: news.groups > Message-Id: <856000675.32727@dejanews.com> > Reply-To: @moa.net > Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service > To: rdetweil@primenet.com > X-Article-Creation-Date: Sat Feb 15 09:57:56 1997 GMT > X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.34 (ppp-pm01-dy-2.ouhub.moa.net) > X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) > > I ask you to read and judge for yourself. Frederick Glaysher > > Begin censored post: > ------- > > Subject: > Re: A Modest Proposal > Date: > Fri, 14 Feb 1997 07:15:00 -0700 (MST) > From: > "Richard C. Detweiler" > To: > @moa.net > CC: > srb-mods@bcca.org > > > Dear Fred, > > The following is being returned to you. The sarcastic comments are > not conducive to respectful consultation. If you would like to edit > this so that your views are expressed without belittlement of the > previous poster, I would be happy to post it. > > BTW, should I just go ahead and cc: news.groups on all your rejects during > the RFD period or are you happy to do that yourself? :-) > > Dick Detweiler > co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai > > > To: soc-religion-bahai@uunet.uu.net > > Path: ppp-pm01-dy-28.ouhub.moa.net > > From: FG <@moa.net> > > Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai > > Subject: Re: A Modest Proposal > > Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 09:09:27 -0500 > > Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A. > > Lines: 31 > > Message-ID: <33047217.5890@moa.net> > > References: <5du2o7$b0i@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> > <5dvk11$3c1@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> > > Reply-To: @moa.net > > NNTP-Posting-Host: zeus.moa.net > > Mime-Version: 1.0 > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) > > To: Dr Steve Burgess > > Content-Length: 1091 > > > > Dr Steve Burgess wrote: > > > > > > Thank you for posting this message. Again, the air is a bit clearer. > > > Steve > > > > > > > And now it's time to clamp back down before anyone asks any more > > uncomfortable questions.... Or says anything they shouldn't.... > > > > > David Langness wrote: > > > > > > > > [MODERATORS NOTE: The moderators are aware of the inconsistancy > > > > between this post and the call for a hiatus on the discussion of the > > > > Dialogue affair on the newsgroup. However, the moderators are also > very > > > > concerned about fairness and accuracy. Therefore we are forwarding > > > > this note to the newsgroup. It may be inconsistant, but it seems > > > > like the right thing to do. -- mods] > > > > > > > > Dear Friends, > > > > > > > > While I am not currently on srb, a few people have forwarded me > > > > some recent posts regarding Dialogue magazine and the stillborn > > > > article "A Modest Proposal," and I wanted to set the record > > > > straight regarding that article's now-controversial title. > > > > > > > > I feel like eating babies.... We'd save so much money on welfare.... > > > > -- > > Frederick Glaysher > > Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > > > > -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- > https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet > > ===================================================================== ====== > > WHAT TO DO IF YOU DID NOT REQUEST THIS POSTING: > ---------------------------------------------- > [This article has NOT yet been posted to Usenet. The reason we send this > email is to authenticate the author of articles we post.] > > If you did not request this article be posted to Usenet via the Deja News > service, that could mean someone using our service forged your address and > attempted to make this article appear as if you had posted it. The person > who did this used the IP address we log in the X-Originating-IP-Addr: > header field of the posting. This person may be able to be traced if you > contact the system administrator at their site. > > If you would like us to try to find out if someone forged your address, > please write to postnews@dejanews.com, include a statement like "I didn't > write this, please find out who did", and include this entire message. We > will try to help you as much as we can, but we are not a legal body and > other system administrators are not always cooperative, so we cannot > promise any results. We are sorry for any inconvenience. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Sat Feb 15 08:18:37 1997 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.34) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Sat, 15 Feb 1997 08:06:43 -0500 Message-ID: <3305B6A2.61E3@moa.net> Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 08:14:10 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dopost@grunt.dejanews.com Subject: please post References: <199702150958.DAA32742@grunt.dejanews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0004 Content-Length: 6288 dopost@grunt.dejanews.com wrote: > > [A reply is required to post your article. (If you did not request this, > please do not reply to this email, instead read the instructions at the > bottom of this note, and send any questions to postnews@dejanews.com).] > > You have requested that the following article be posted to Usenet via the > Posting Service at Deja News. Your article is currently sitting in our > spool waiting for you to authorize it by following the following > instructions: > > TO POST YOUR ARTICLE PLEASE READ AND FOLLOW THESE INSTRUCTIONS: > --------------------------------------------------------------- > - You must reply to this email, including the ENTIRE text of this email in > the reply. (It's okay if your email program inserts characters in the left > hand column, e.g. '>', or whatever). The reply MUST be sent to: > dopost@postnews.dejanews.com > - You must change the Subject: header of your reply to contain the > words: "PLEASE POST" (capitalization doesn't matter). (Note: this is the > Subject header of the message you send to us, not the subject header of the > article you wish to have posted). > > [The following string must not be changed/modified/wrapped/truncated.] > TRANSID:51cfa0c43d2514714b85b54c21b9eef75d8e196a510a > ===================================================================== ====== > From: @moa.net > Subject: S.R.Bahai Censored: 2-14-97 > Newsgroups: news.groups > Message-Id: <856000675.32727@dejanews.com> > Reply-To: @moa.net > Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service > To: rdetweil@primenet.com > X-Article-Creation-Date: Sat Feb 15 09:57:56 1997 GMT > X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.34 (ppp-pm01-dy-2.ouhub.moa.net) > X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) > > I ask you to read and judge for yourself. Frederick Glaysher > > Begin censored post: > ------- > > Subject: > Re: A Modest Proposal > Date: > Fri, 14 Feb 1997 07:15:00 -0700 (MST) > From: > "Richard C. Detweiler" > To: > @moa.net > CC: > srb-mods@bcca.org > > > Dear Fred, > > The following is being returned to you. The sarcastic comments are > not conducive to respectful consultation. If you would like to edit > this so that your views are expressed without belittlement of the > previous poster, I would be happy to post it. > > BTW, should I just go ahead and cc: news.groups on all your rejects during > the RFD period or are you happy to do that yourself? :-) > > Dick Detweiler > co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai > > > To: soc-religion-bahai@uunet.uu.net > > Path: ppp-pm01-dy-28.ouhub.moa.net > > From: FG <@moa.net> > > Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai > > Subject: Re: A Modest Proposal > > Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 09:09:27 -0500 > > Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A. > > Lines: 31 > > Message-ID: <33047217.5890@moa.net> > > References: <5du2o7$b0i@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> > <5dvk11$3c1@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> > > Reply-To: @moa.net > > NNTP-Posting-Host: zeus.moa.net > > Mime-Version: 1.0 > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) > > To: Dr Steve Burgess > > Content-Length: 1091 > > > > Dr Steve Burgess wrote: > > > > > > Thank you for posting this message. Again, the air is a bit clearer. > > > Steve > > > > > > > And now it's time to clamp back down before anyone asks any more > > uncomfortable questions.... Or says anything they shouldn't.... > > > > > David Langness wrote: > > > > > > > > [MODERATORS NOTE: The moderators are aware of the inconsistancy > > > > between this post and the call for a hiatus on the discussion of the > > > > Dialogue affair on the newsgroup. However, the moderators are also > very > > > > concerned about fairness and accuracy. Therefore we are forwarding > > > > this note to the newsgroup. It may be inconsistant, but it seems > > > > like the right thing to do. -- mods] > > > > > > > > Dear Friends, > > > > > > > > While I am not currently on srb, a few people have forwarded me > > > > some recent posts regarding Dialogue magazine and the stillborn > > > > article "A Modest Proposal," and I wanted to set the record > > > > straight regarding that article's now-controversial title. > > > > > > > > I feel like eating babies.... We'd save so much money on welfare.... > > > > -- > > Frederick Glaysher > > Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > > > > -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- > https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet > > ===================================================================== ====== > > WHAT TO DO IF YOU DID NOT REQUEST THIS POSTING: > ---------------------------------------------- > [This article has NOT yet been posted to Usenet. The reason we send this > email is to authenticate the author of articles we post.] > > If you did not request this article be posted to Usenet via the Deja News > service, that could mean someone using our service forged your address and > attempted to make this article appear as if you had posted it. The person > who did this used the IP address we log in the X-Originating-IP-Addr: > header field of the posting. This person may be able to be traced if you > contact the system administrator at their site. > > If you would like us to try to find out if someone forged your address, > please write to postnews@dejanews.com, include a statement like "I didn't > write this, please find out who did", and include this entire message. We > will try to help you as much as we can, but we are not a legal body and > other system administrators are not always cooperative, so we cannot > promise any results. We are sorry for any inconvenience. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Sat Feb 15 08:14:32 1997 BCC: @MOA.net Message-ID: <3305B6B8.83C@moa.net> Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 08:14:32 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dopost@grunt.dejanews.com Subject: please post References: <199702151006.EAA00114@grunt.dejanews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 4729 dopost@grunt.dejanews.com wrote: > > [A reply is required to post your article. (If you did not request this, > please do not reply to this email, instead read the instructions at the > bottom of this note, and send any questions to postnews@dejanews.com).] > > You have requested that the following article be posted to Usenet via the > Posting Service at Deja News. Your article is currently sitting in our > spool waiting for you to authorize it by following the following > instructions: > > TO POST YOUR ARTICLE PLEASE READ AND FOLLOW THESE INSTRUCTIONS: > --------------------------------------------------------------- > - You must reply to this email, including the ENTIRE text of this email in > the reply. (It's okay if your email program inserts characters in the left > hand column, e.g. '>', or whatever). The reply MUST be sent to: > dopost@postnews.dejanews.com > - You must change the Subject: header of your reply to contain the > words: "PLEASE POST" (capitalization doesn't matter). (Note: this is the > Subject header of the message you send to us, not the subject header of the > article you wish to have posted). > > [The following string must not be changed/modified/wrapped/truncated.] > TRANSID:e1cf60843df544d1319bcadc26c5811fae2641c68bb6 > ===================================================================== ====== > From: @moa.net > Subject: Re: Concerning talk.religion.bahai Proposal > Newsgroups: news.groups > Message-Id: <856001205.108@dejanews.com> > Reply-To: @moa.net > Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service > To: keillan@purdue.edu,bruce@kenosis.com > References: <5e2bla$nvk@quest.cc.purdue.edu> <5e2v76$13g_002@news.zippo.com> > X-Article-Creation-Date: Sat Feb 15 10:06:45 1997 GMT > X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.34 (ppp-pm01-dy-2.ouhub.moa.net) > X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) > > In article <5e2v76$13g_002@news.zippo.com>, > bruce@kenosis.com (Bruce Baugh) wrote: > > > > In article <5e2bla$nvk@quest.cc.purdue.edu>, keillan@purdue.edu (Kelly G. > Willis) wrote: > > > > >So, the question becomes, how does one vote on a newsgroup that will > > >be read initially, but not read after a certain point? > > > > If I were to make the analysis you do (which I've snipped, and which precisely > > reflects my experience with too many newsgroups), I would vote "no". There's > > no trial period or expiration date on newsgroups - if you do not foresee a > > group remaining useful for several years, then you should, at a minimum, not > > vote in favor of it. > > > > I've been a Bahai for over twenty years. I don't believe the need > for an uncensored, unmoderated newsgroup is going change any time > soon.... Remember an uncensored forum would not only be for > Bahais but also for other people to obtain unfiltered discussion > on the Bahai Faith. > > > -- > > Bruce Baugh <*> bruce@kenosis.com <*> https://www.kenosis.com > > Moderator, comp.os.ms-windows.win95.moderated > > List manager, Christlib, Christian/libertarian mailing list > > Host, new sf by S.M. Stirling and George Alec Effing er > > Frederick Glaysher > Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > > -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- > https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet > > ===================================================================== ====== > > WHAT TO DO IF YOU DID NOT REQUEST THIS POSTING: > ---------------------------------------------- > [This article has NOT yet been posted to Usenet. The reason we send this > email is to authenticate the author of articles we post.] > > If you did not request this article be posted to Usenet via the Deja News > service, that could mean someone using our service forged your address and > attempted to make this article appear as if you had posted it. The person > who did this used the IP address we log in the X-Originating-IP-Addr: > header field of the posting. This person may be able to be traced if you > contact the system administrator at their site. > > If you would like us to try to find out if someone forged your address, > please write to postnews@dejanews.com, include a statement like "I didn't > write this, please find out who did", and include this entire message. We > will try to help you as much as we can, but we are not a legal body and > other system administrators are not always cooperative, so we cannot > promise any results. We are sorry for any inconvenience. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Sat Feb 15 08:18:41 1997 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.34) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Sat, 15 Feb 1997 08:07:05 -0500 Message-ID: <3305B6B8.83C@moa.net> Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 08:14:32 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dopost@grunt.dejanews.com Subject: please post References: <199702151006.EAA00114@grunt.dejanews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0004 Content-Length: 4727 dopost@grunt.dejanews.com wrote: > > [A reply is required to post your article. (If you did not request this, > please do not reply to this email, instead read the instructions at the > bottom of this note, and send any questions to postnews@dejanews.com).] > > You have requested that the following article be posted to Usenet via the > Posting Service at Deja News. Your article is currently sitting in our > spool waiting for you to authorize it by following the following > instructions: > > TO POST YOUR ARTICLE PLEASE READ AND FOLLOW THESE INSTRUCTIONS: > --------------------------------------------------------------- > - You must reply to this email, including the ENTIRE text of this email in > the reply. (It's okay if your email program inserts characters in the left > hand column, e.g. '>', or whatever). The reply MUST be sent to: > dopost@postnews.dejanews.com > - You must change the Subject: header of your reply to contain the > words: "PLEASE POST" (capitalization doesn't matter). (Note: this is the > Subject header of the message you send to us, not the subject header of the > article you wish to have posted). > > [The following string must not be changed/modified/wrapped/truncated.] > TRANSID:e1cf60843df544d1319bcadc26c5811fae2641c68bb6 > ===================================================================== ====== > From: @moa.net > Subject: Re: Concerning talk.religion.bahai Proposal > Newsgroups: news.groups > Message-Id: <856001205.108@dejanews.com> > Reply-To: @moa.net > Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service > To: keillan@purdue.edu,bruce@kenosis.com > References: <5e2bla$nvk@quest.cc.purdue.edu> <5e2v76$13g_002@news.zippo.com> > X-Article-Creation-Date: Sat Feb 15 10:06:45 1997 GMT > X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.34 (ppp-pm01-dy-2.ouhub.moa.net) > X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) > > In article <5e2v76$13g_002@news.zippo.com>, > bruce@kenosis.com (Bruce Baugh) wrote: > > > > In article <5e2bla$nvk@quest.cc.purdue.edu>, keillan@purdue.edu (Kelly G. > Willis) wrote: > > > > >So, the question becomes, how does one vote on a newsgroup that will > > >be read initially, but not read after a certain point? > > > > If I were to make the analysis you do (which I've snipped, and which precisely > > reflects my experience with too many newsgroups), I would vote "no". There's > > no trial period or expiration date on newsgroups - if you do not foresee a > > group remaining useful for several years, then you should, at a minimum, not > > vote in favor of it. > > > > I've been a Bahai for over twenty years. I don't believe the need > for an uncensored, unmoderated newsgroup is going change any time > soon.... Remember an uncensored forum would not only be for > Bahais but also for other people to obtain unfiltered discussion > on the Bahai Faith. > > > -- > > Bruce Baugh <*> bruce@kenosis.com <*> https://www.kenosis.com > > Moderator, comp.os.ms-windows.win95.moderated > > List manager, Christlib, Christian/libertarian mailing list > > Host, new sf by S.M. Stirling and George Alec Effing er > > Frederick Glaysher > Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > > -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- > https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet > > ===================================================================== ====== > > WHAT TO DO IF YOU DID NOT REQUEST THIS POSTING: > ---------------------------------------------- > [This article has NOT yet been posted to Usenet. The reason we send this > email is to authenticate the author of articles we post.] > > If you did not request this article be posted to Usenet via the Deja News > service, that could mean someone using our service forged your address and > attempted to make this article appear as if you had posted it. The person > who did this used the IP address we log in the X-Originating-IP-Addr: > header field of the posting. This person may be able to be traced if you > contact the system administrator at their site. > > If you would like us to try to find out if someone forged your address, > please write to postnews@dejanews.com, include a statement like "I didn't > write this, please find out who did", and include this entire message. We > will try to help you as much as we can, but we are not a legal body and > other system administrators are not always cooperative, so we cannot > promise any results. We are sorry for any inconvenience. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Sat Feb 15 08:18:41 1997 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.34) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Sat, 15 Feb 1997 08:07:05 -0500 Message-ID: <3305B6B8.83C@moa.net> Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 08:14:32 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dopost@grunt.dejanews.com Subject: please post References: <199702151006.EAA00114@grunt.dejanews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0004 Content-Length: 4727 dopost@grunt.dejanews.com wrote: > > [A reply is required to post your article. (If you did not request this, > please do not reply to this email, instead read the instructions at the > bottom of this note, and send any questions to postnews@dejanews.com).] > > You have requested that the following article be posted to Usenet via the > Posting Service at Deja News. Your article is currently sitting in our > spool waiting for you to authorize it by following the following > instructions: > > TO POST YOUR ARTICLE PLEASE READ AND FOLLOW THESE INSTRUCTIONS: > --------------------------------------------------------------- > - You must reply to this email, including the ENTIRE text of this email in > the reply. (It's okay if your email program inserts characters in the left > hand column, e.g. '>', or whatever). The reply MUST be sent to: > dopost@postnews.dejanews.com > - You must change the Subject: header of your reply to contain the > words: "PLEASE POST" (capitalization doesn't matter). (Note: this is the > Subject header of the message you send to us, not the subject header of the > article you wish to have posted). > > [The following string must not be changed/modified/wrapped/truncated.] > TRANSID:e1cf60843df544d1319bcadc26c5811fae2641c68bb6 > ===================================================================== ====== > From: @moa.net > Subject: Re: Concerning talk.religion.bahai Proposal > Newsgroups: news.groups > Message-Id: <856001205.108@dejanews.com> > Reply-To: @moa.net > Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service > To: keillan@purdue.edu,bruce@kenosis.com > References: <5e2bla$nvk@quest.cc.purdue.edu> <5e2v76$13g_002@news.zippo.com> > X-Article-Creation-Date: Sat Feb 15 10:06:45 1997 GMT > X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.34 (ppp-pm01-dy-2.ouhub.moa.net) > X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) > > In article <5e2v76$13g_002@news.zippo.com>, > bruce@kenosis.com (Bruce Baugh) wrote: > > > > In article <5e2bla$nvk@quest.cc.purdue.edu>, keillan@purdue.edu (Kelly G. > Willis) wrote: > > > > >So, the question becomes, how does one vote on a newsgroup that will > > >be read initially, but not read after a certain point? > > > > If I were to make the analysis you do (which I've snipped, and which precisely > > reflects my experience with too many newsgroups), I would vote "no". There's > > no trial period or expiration date on newsgroups - if you do not foresee a > > group remaining useful for several years, then you should, at a minimum, not > > vote in favor of it. > > > > I've been a Bahai for over twenty years. I don't believe the need > for an uncensored, unmoderated newsgroup is going change any time > soon.... Remember an uncensored forum would not only be for > Bahais but also for other people to obtain unfiltered discussion > on the Bahai Faith. > > > -- > > Bruce Baugh <*> bruce@kenosis.com <*> https://www.kenosis.com > > Moderator, comp.os.ms-windows.win95.moderated > > List manager, Christlib, Christian/libertarian mailing list > > Host, new sf by S.M. Stirling and George Alec Effing er > > Frederick Glaysher > Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > > -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- > https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet > > ===================================================================== ====== > > WHAT TO DO IF YOU DID NOT REQUEST THIS POSTING: > ---------------------------------------------- > [This article has NOT yet been posted to Usenet. The reason we send this > email is to authenticate the author of articles we post.] > > If you did not request this article be posted to Usenet via the Deja News > service, that could mean someone using our service forged your address and > attempted to make this article appear as if you had posted it. The person > who did this used the IP address we log in the X-Originating-IP-Addr: > header field of the posting. This person may be able to be traced if you > contact the system administrator at their site. > > If you would like us to try to find out if someone forged your address, > please write to postnews@dejanews.com, include a statement like "I didn't > write this, please find out who did", and include this entire message. We > will try to help you as much as we can, but we are not a legal body and > other system administrators are not always cooperative, so we cannot > promise any results. We are sorry for any inconvenience. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Sat Feb 15 08:14:58 1997 BCC: @MOA.net Message-ID: <3305B6D2.5823@moa.net> Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 08:14:58 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dopost@grunt.dejanews.com Subject: please post References: <199702151019.EAA00218@grunt.dejanews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 5782 dopost@grunt.dejanews.com wrote: > > [A reply is required to post your article. (If you did not request this, > please do not reply to this email, instead read the instructions at the > bottom of this note, and send any questions to postnews@dejanews.com).] > > You have requested that the following article be posted to Usenet via the > Posting Service at Deja News. Your article is currently sitting in our > spool waiting for you to authorize it by following the following > instructions: > > TO POST YOUR ARTICLE PLEASE READ AND FOLLOW THESE INSTRUCTIONS: > --------------------------------------------------------------- > - You must reply to this email, including the ENTIRE text of this email in > the reply. (It's okay if your email program inserts characters in the left > hand column, e.g. '>', or whatever). The reply MUST be sent to: > dopost@postnews.dejanews.com > - You must change the Subject: header of your reply to contain the > words: "PLEASE POST" (capitalization doesn't matter). (Note: this is the > Subject header of the message you send to us, not the subject header of the > article you wish to have posted). > > [The following string must not be changed/modified/wrapped/truncated.] > TRANSID:414f10d44d954421d14c1fc0da3068d187d8d8ebd222 > ===================================================================== ====== > From: @moa.net > Subject: Re: talk.religion.bahai - NEEDED > Newsgroups: news.groups > Message-Id: <856001943.208@dejanews.com> > Reply-To: @moa.net > Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service > To: srb-mods@bcca.org > References: <19970214064401.BAA02439@ladder01.news.aol.com> <330442B9.43D7@wwnet.com> > X-Article-Creation-Date: Sat Feb 15 10:19:03 1997 GMT > X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.34 (ppp-pm01-dy-2.ouhub.moa.net) > X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) > > In article <330442B9.43D7@wwnet.com>, > rreini@wwnet.com wrote: > > > > RobbbRobbb wrote: > > > > > > Dear Baha'is, friends and seekers discussing the proposed talk. > > > religion.bahai newsgroup, > > > > > > I have been following the discussion here of the proposed newsgroup > > > > ...and everything you have said can be satisfied by using > > talk.religion.misc as that second group. As I have said before, I see > > no reason why t.r.m cannot be used. Sure, the discussions there cover > > all topics, and those topics are primiarliy Christian. But > > non-Christian topics are NOT forbidden by the t.r.m charter. > > > > Why are you so desperate to prevent the forming of talk.religion.bahai? > What are you afraid of? What are your real motives? > > > It still makes sense to me for the proponents of t.r.b. to delay the CFV > > and use t.r.m to demonstrate the need for t.r.b. If there are so many > > posts on t.r.m that t.r.b becomes feasible, then it should be created AT > > THAT TIME, after another RFD and CFV. And also, this provides the forum > > NOW. > > > > There's no way I'm delaying it.... The vote will demonstrate the > need and that's proper procedure for forming a newsgroup. > As they say on TV, it does not compute.... I view these suggestions > as mere stratagems to oppose talk.religion.bahai. Read my postings > on TRAFFIC on srb, which the moderators weren't even able to keep > up with recently.... Given that, etc., what's your real motivation? > > > In short, I don't believe that a demonstrated need for t.r.b has yet > > been demonstrated. > > > > It's been overwhelmingly demonstrated by the more than 20 censored > messages posted to news.groups and corroborated by others than myself > to have acknowledged in one way or another that they to had been > censored in the past or recently. If you're reading soc.religion.bahai > on an email echo, you're in trouble because you're only reading half > the story. Somehow get access to news.groups.... > > > Roger (rreini@wwnet.com) > > https://www.wwnet.com/~rreini/ > > Please share with all of us your candid, frank reasons for > opposition to talk.religion.bahai. I don't believe these arguments > hold water any more. > > Frederick Glaysher > Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > > -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- > https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet > > ===================================================================== ====== > > WHAT TO DO IF YOU DID NOT REQUEST THIS POSTING: > ---------------------------------------------- > [This article has NOT yet been posted to Usenet. The reason we send this > email is to authenticate the author of articles we post.] > > If you did not request this article be posted to Usenet via the Deja News > service, that could mean someone using our service forged your address and > attempted to make this article appear as if you had posted it. The person > who did this used the IP address we log in the X-Originating-IP-Addr: > header field of the posting. This person may be able to be traced if you > contact the system administrator at their site. > > If you would like us to try to find out if someone forged your address, > please write to postnews@dejanews.com, include a statement like "I didn't > write this, please find out who did", and include this entire message. We > will try to help you as much as we can, but we are not a legal body and > other system administrators are not always cooperative, so we cannot > promise any results. We are sorry for any inconvenience. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Sat Feb 15 08:18:44 1997 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.34) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Sat, 15 Feb 1997 08:07:31 -0500 Message-ID: <3305B6D2.5823@moa.net> Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 08:14:58 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dopost@grunt.dejanews.com Subject: please post References: <199702151019.EAA00218@grunt.dejanews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0004 Content-Length: 5780 dopost@grunt.dejanews.com wrote: > > [A reply is required to post your article. (If you did not request this, > please do not reply to this email, instead read the instructions at the > bottom of this note, and send any questions to postnews@dejanews.com).] > > You have requested that the following article be posted to Usenet via the > Posting Service at Deja News. Your article is currently sitting in our > spool waiting for you to authorize it by following the following > instructions: > > TO POST YOUR ARTICLE PLEASE READ AND FOLLOW THESE INSTRUCTIONS: > --------------------------------------------------------------- > - You must reply to this email, including the ENTIRE text of this email in > the reply. (It's okay if your email program inserts characters in the left > hand column, e.g. '>', or whatever). The reply MUST be sent to: > dopost@postnews.dejanews.com > - You must change the Subject: header of your reply to contain the > words: "PLEASE POST" (capitalization doesn't matter). (Note: this is the > Subject header of the message you send to us, not the subject header of the > article you wish to have posted). > > [The following string must not be changed/modified/wrapped/truncated.] > TRANSID:414f10d44d954421d14c1fc0da3068d187d8d8ebd222 > ===================================================================== ====== > From: @moa.net > Subject: Re: talk.religion.bahai - NEEDED > Newsgroups: news.groups > Message-Id: <856001943.208@dejanews.com> > Reply-To: @moa.net > Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service > To: srb-mods@bcca.org > References: <19970214064401.BAA02439@ladder01.news.aol.com> <330442B9.43D7@wwnet.com> > X-Article-Creation-Date: Sat Feb 15 10:19:03 1997 GMT > X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.34 (ppp-pm01-dy-2.ouhub.moa.net) > X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) > > In article <330442B9.43D7@wwnet.com>, > rreini@wwnet.com wrote: > > > > RobbbRobbb wrote: > > > > > > Dear Baha'is, friends and seekers discussing the proposed talk. > > > religion.bahai newsgroup, > > > > > > I have been following the discussion here of the proposed newsgroup > > > > ...and everything you have said can be satisfied by using > > talk.religion.misc as that second group. As I have said before, I see > > no reason why t.r.m cannot be used. Sure, the discussions there cover > > all topics, and those topics are primiarliy Christian. But > > non-Christian topics are NOT forbidden by the t.r.m charter. > > > > Why are you so desperate to prevent the forming of talk.religion.bahai? > What are you afraid of? What are your real motives? > > > It still makes sense to me for the proponents of t.r.b. to delay the CFV > > and use t.r.m to demonstrate the need for t.r.b. If there are so many > > posts on t.r.m that t.r.b becomes feasible, then it should be created AT > > THAT TIME, after another RFD and CFV. And also, this provides the forum > > NOW. > > > > There's no way I'm delaying it.... The vote will demonstrate the > need and that's proper procedure for forming a newsgroup. > As they say on TV, it does not compute.... I view these suggestions > as mere stratagems to oppose talk.religion.bahai. Read my postings > on TRAFFIC on srb, which the moderators weren't even able to keep > up with recently.... Given that, etc., what's your real motivation? > > > In short, I don't believe that a demonstrated need for t.r.b has yet > > been demonstrated. > > > > It's been overwhelmingly demonstrated by the more than 20 censored > messages posted to news.groups and corroborated by others than myself > to have acknowledged in one way or another that they to had been > censored in the past or recently. If you're reading soc.religion.bahai > on an email echo, you're in trouble because you're only reading half > the story. Somehow get access to news.groups.... > > > Roger (rreini@wwnet.com) > > https://www.wwnet.com/~rreini/ > > Please share with all of us your candid, frank reasons for > opposition to talk.religion.bahai. I don't believe these arguments > hold water any more. > > Frederick Glaysher > Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > > -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- > https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet > > ===================================================================== ====== > > WHAT TO DO IF YOU DID NOT REQUEST THIS POSTING: > ---------------------------------------------- > [This article has NOT yet been posted to Usenet. The reason we send this > email is to authenticate the author of articles we post.] > > If you did not request this article be posted to Usenet via the Deja News > service, that could mean someone using our service forged your address and > attempted to make this article appear as if you had posted it. The person > who did this used the IP address we log in the X-Originating-IP-Addr: > header field of the posting. This person may be able to be traced if you > contact the system administrator at their site. > > If you would like us to try to find out if someone forged your address, > please write to postnews@dejanews.com, include a statement like "I didn't > write this, please find out who did", and include this entire message. We > will try to help you as much as we can, but we are not a legal body and > other system administrators are not always cooperative, so we cannot > promise any results. We are sorry for any inconvenience. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Sat Feb 15 08:18:44 1997 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.34) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Sat, 15 Feb 1997 08:07:31 -0500 Message-ID: <3305B6D2.5823@moa.net> Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 08:14:58 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dopost@grunt.dejanews.com Subject: please post References: <199702151019.EAA00218@grunt.dejanews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0004 Content-Length: 5780 dopost@grunt.dejanews.com wrote: > > [A reply is required to post your article. (If you did not request this, > please do not reply to this email, instead read the instructions at the > bottom of this note, and send any questions to postnews@dejanews.com).] > > You have requested that the following article be posted to Usenet via the > Posting Service at Deja News. Your article is currently sitting in our > spool waiting for you to authorize it by following the following > instructions: > > TO POST YOUR ARTICLE PLEASE READ AND FOLLOW THESE INSTRUCTIONS: > --------------------------------------------------------------- > - You must reply to this email, including the ENTIRE text of this email in > the reply. (It's okay if your email program inserts characters in the left > hand column, e.g. '>', or whatever). The reply MUST be sent to: > dopost@postnews.dejanews.com > - You must change the Subject: header of your reply to contain the > words: "PLEASE POST" (capitalization doesn't matter). (Note: this is the > Subject header of the message you send to us, not the subject header of the > article you wish to have posted). > > [The following string must not be changed/modified/wrapped/truncated.] > TRANSID:414f10d44d954421d14c1fc0da3068d187d8d8ebd222 > ===================================================================== ====== > From: @moa.net > Subject: Re: talk.religion.bahai - NEEDED > Newsgroups: news.groups > Message-Id: <856001943.208@dejanews.com> > Reply-To: @moa.net > Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service > To: srb-mods@bcca.org > References: <19970214064401.BAA02439@ladder01.news.aol.com> <330442B9.43D7@wwnet.com> > X-Article-Creation-Date: Sat Feb 15 10:19:03 1997 GMT > X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.34 (ppp-pm01-dy-2.ouhub.moa.net) > X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) > > In article <330442B9.43D7@wwnet.com>, > rreini@wwnet.com wrote: > > > > RobbbRobbb wrote: > > > > > > Dear Baha'is, friends and seekers discussing the proposed talk. > > > religion.bahai newsgroup, > > > > > > I have been following the discussion here of the proposed newsgroup > > > > ...and everything you have said can be satisfied by using > > talk.religion.misc as that second group. As I have said before, I see > > no reason why t.r.m cannot be used. Sure, the discussions there cover > > all topics, and those topics are primiarliy Christian. But > > non-Christian topics are NOT forbidden by the t.r.m charter. > > > > Why are you so desperate to prevent the forming of talk.religion.bahai? > What are you afraid of? What are your real motives? > > > It still makes sense to me for the proponents of t.r.b. to delay the CFV > > and use t.r.m to demonstrate the need for t.r.b. If there are so many > > posts on t.r.m that t.r.b becomes feasible, then it should be created AT > > THAT TIME, after another RFD and CFV. And also, this provides the forum > > NOW. > > > > There's no way I'm delaying it.... The vote will demonstrate the > need and that's proper procedure for forming a newsgroup. > As they say on TV, it does not compute.... I view these suggestions > as mere stratagems to oppose talk.religion.bahai. Read my postings > on TRAFFIC on srb, which the moderators weren't even able to keep > up with recently.... Given that, etc., what's your real motivation? > > > In short, I don't believe that a demonstrated need for t.r.b has yet > > been demonstrated. > > > > It's been overwhelmingly demonstrated by the more than 20 censored > messages posted to news.groups and corroborated by others than myself > to have acknowledged in one way or another that they to had been > censored in the past or recently. If you're reading soc.religion.bahai > on an email echo, you're in trouble because you're only reading half > the story. Somehow get access to news.groups.... > > > Roger (rreini@wwnet.com) > > https://www.wwnet.com/~rreini/ > > Please share with all of us your candid, frank reasons for > opposition to talk.religion.bahai. I don't believe these arguments > hold water any more. > > Frederick Glaysher > Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > > -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- > https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet > > ===================================================================== ====== > > WHAT TO DO IF YOU DID NOT REQUEST THIS POSTING: > ---------------------------------------------- > [This article has NOT yet been posted to Usenet. The reason we send this > email is to authenticate the author of articles we post.] > > If you did not request this article be posted to Usenet via the Deja News > service, that could mean someone using our service forged your address and > attempted to make this article appear as if you had posted it. The person > who did this used the IP address we log in the X-Originating-IP-Addr: > header field of the posting. This person may be able to be traced if you > contact the system administrator at their site. > > If you would like us to try to find out if someone forged your address, > please write to postnews@dejanews.com, include a statement like "I didn't > write this, please find out who did", and include this entire message. We > will try to help you as much as we can, but we are not a legal body and > other system administrators are not always cooperative, so we cannot > promise any results. We are sorry for any inconvenience. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Sat Feb 15 08:15:19 1997 BCC: @MOA.net Message-ID: <3305B6E7.1BC9@moa.net> Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 08:15:19 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dopost@grunt.dejanews.com Subject: please post References: <199702151028.EAA00350@grunt.dejanews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 4926 dopost@grunt.dejanews.com wrote: > > [A reply is required to post your article. (If you did not request this, > please do not reply to this email, instead read the instructions at the > bottom of this note, and send any questions to postnews@dejanews.com).] > > You have requested that the following article be posted to Usenet via the > Posting Service at Deja News. Your article is currently sitting in our > spool waiting for you to authorize it by following the following > instructions: > > TO POST YOUR ARTICLE PLEASE READ AND FOLLOW THESE INSTRUCTIONS: > --------------------------------------------------------------- > - You must reply to this email, including the ENTIRE text of this email in > the reply. (It's okay if your email program inserts characters in the left > hand column, e.g. '>', or whatever). The reply MUST be sent to: > dopost@postnews.dejanews.com > - You must change the Subject: header of your reply to contain the > words: "PLEASE POST" (capitalization doesn't matter). (Note: this is the > Subject header of the message you send to us, not the subject header of the > article you wish to have posted). > > [The following string must not be changed/modified/wrapped/truncated.] > TRANSID:01cf30b47dc564615f9710844086b29c70f1177f90a1 > ===================================================================== ====== > From: @moa.net > Subject: Re: Concerning talk.religion.bahai Proposal > Newsgroups: news.groups > Message-Id: <856002504.340@dejanews.com> > Reply-To: @moa.net > Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service > To: srb-mods@bcca.org > References: <5e2bla$nvk@quest.cc.purdue.edu> > X-Article-Creation-Date: Sat Feb 15 10:28:24 1997 GMT > X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.34 (ppp-pm01-dy-2.ouhub.moa.net) > X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) > > In article , > desj@ccr-p.ida.org (David desJardins) wrote: > > > > Kelly G. Willis writes: > > > So, the question becomes, how does one vote on a newsgroup that will > > > be read initially, but not read after a certain point? > > > > This really isn't very complicated. If you think it would benefit you, > > for example by taking away unwanted traffic from other groups that you > > read, vote YES. If you think it would harm you, for example by taking > > away traffic that you now enjoy reading into a group that you would > > eventually stop reading, vote NO. If you don't think it would affect > > you one way or the other, nor help or harm Usenet as a whole in any > > particular way, don't vote. > > > > David desJardins > > > [clip] > > With all respect, this isn't quite accurate as I understand the > USEnet guidelines for voting. Yes: if you want it or would use it; > No: if opposed for technical reasons such as space, newsgroup name > considerations. Voting no because you don't like it prevents the > 100 or people who want it from froming it and participating and > therefore ideological reasons are invalid and unethical reasons. > Abstain: if your reasons are content, ideologically oriented. > > A few postings detailing this by people more proficient in > the process can be found on news.groups.... > > Frederick Glaysher > Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > > -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- > https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet > > ===================================================================== ====== > > WHAT TO DO IF YOU DID NOT REQUEST THIS POSTING: > ---------------------------------------------- > [This article has NOT yet been posted to Usenet. The reason we send this > email is to authenticate the author of articles we post.] > > If you did not request this article be posted to Usenet via the Deja News > service, that could mean someone using our service forged your address and > attempted to make this article appear as if you had posted it. The person > who did this used the IP address we log in the X-Originating-IP-Addr: > header field of the posting. This person may be able to be traced if you > contact the system administrator at their site. > > If you would like us to try to find out if someone forged your address, > please write to postnews@dejanews.com, include a statement like "I didn't > write this, please find out who did", and include this entire message. We > will try to help you as much as we can, but we are not a legal body and > other system administrators are not always cooperative, so we cannot > promise any results. We are sorry for any inconvenience. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Sat Feb 15 08:18:47 1997 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.34) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Sat, 15 Feb 1997 08:07:52 -0500 Message-ID: <3305B6E7.1BC9@moa.net> Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 08:15:19 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dopost@grunt.dejanews.com Subject: please post References: <199702151028.EAA00350@grunt.dejanews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0004 Content-Length: 4924 dopost@grunt.dejanews.com wrote: > > [A reply is required to post your article. (If you did not request this, > please do not reply to this email, instead read the instructions at the > bottom of this note, and send any questions to postnews@dejanews.com).] > > You have requested that the following article be posted to Usenet via the > Posting Service at Deja News. Your article is currently sitting in our > spool waiting for you to authorize it by following the following > instructions: > > TO POST YOUR ARTICLE PLEASE READ AND FOLLOW THESE INSTRUCTIONS: > --------------------------------------------------------------- > - You must reply to this email, including the ENTIRE text of this email in > the reply. (It's okay if your email program inserts characters in the left > hand column, e.g. '>', or whatever). The reply MUST be sent to: > dopost@postnews.dejanews.com > - You must change the Subject: header of your reply to contain the > words: "PLEASE POST" (capitalization doesn't matter). (Note: this is the > Subject header of the message you send to us, not the subject header of the > article you wish to have posted). > > [The following string must not be changed/modified/wrapped/truncated.] > TRANSID:01cf30b47dc564615f9710844086b29c70f1177f90a1 > ===================================================================== ====== > From: @moa.net > Subject: Re: Concerning talk.religion.bahai Proposal > Newsgroups: news.groups > Message-Id: <856002504.340@dejanews.com> > Reply-To: @moa.net > Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service > To: srb-mods@bcca.org > References: <5e2bla$nvk@quest.cc.purdue.edu> > X-Article-Creation-Date: Sat Feb 15 10:28:24 1997 GMT > X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.34 (ppp-pm01-dy-2.ouhub.moa.net) > X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) > > In article , > desj@ccr-p.ida.org (David desJardins) wrote: > > > > Kelly G. Willis writes: > > > So, the question becomes, how does one vote on a newsgroup that will > > > be read initially, but not read after a certain point? > > > > This really isn't very complicated. If you think it would benefit you, > > for example by taking away unwanted traffic from other groups that you > > read, vote YES. If you think it would harm you, for example by taking > > away traffic that you now enjoy reading into a group that you would > > eventually stop reading, vote NO. If you don't think it would affect > > you one way or the other, nor help or harm Usenet as a whole in any > > particular way, don't vote. > > > > David desJardins > > > [clip] > > With all respect, this isn't quite accurate as I understand the > USEnet guidelines for voting. Yes: if you want it or would use it; > No: if opposed for technical reasons such as space, newsgroup name > considerations. Voting no because you don't like it prevents the > 100 or people who want it from froming it and participating and > therefore ideological reasons are invalid and unethical reasons. > Abstain: if your reasons are content, ideologically oriented. > > A few postings detailing this by people more proficient in > the process can be found on news.groups.... > > Frederick Glaysher > Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > > -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- > https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet > > ===================================================================== ====== > > WHAT TO DO IF YOU DID NOT REQUEST THIS POSTING: > ---------------------------------------------- > [This article has NOT yet been posted to Usenet. The reason we send this > email is to authenticate the author of articles we post.] > > If you did not request this article be posted to Usenet via the Deja News > service, that could mean someone using our service forged your address and > attempted to make this article appear as if you had posted it. The person > who did this used the IP address we log in the X-Originating-IP-Addr: > header field of the posting. This person may be able to be traced if you > contact the system administrator at their site. > > If you would like us to try to find out if someone forged your address, > please write to postnews@dejanews.com, include a statement like "I didn't > write this, please find out who did", and include this entire message. We > will try to help you as much as we can, but we are not a legal body and > other system administrators are not always cooperative, so we cannot > promise any results. We are sorry for any inconvenience. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Sat Feb 15 08:18:47 1997 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.34) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Sat, 15 Feb 1997 08:07:52 -0500 Message-ID: <3305B6E7.1BC9@moa.net> Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 08:15:19 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dopost@grunt.dejanews.com Subject: please post References: <199702151028.EAA00350@grunt.dejanews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0004 Content-Length: 4924 dopost@grunt.dejanews.com wrote: > > [A reply is required to post your article. (If you did not request this, > please do not reply to this email, instead read the instructions at the > bottom of this note, and send any questions to postnews@dejanews.com).] > > You have requested that the following article be posted to Usenet via the > Posting Service at Deja News. Your article is currently sitting in our > spool waiting for you to authorize it by following the following > instructions: > > TO POST YOUR ARTICLE PLEASE READ AND FOLLOW THESE INSTRUCTIONS: > --------------------------------------------------------------- > - You must reply to this email, including the ENTIRE text of this email in > the reply. (It's okay if your email program inserts characters in the left > hand column, e.g. '>', or whatever). The reply MUST be sent to: > dopost@postnews.dejanews.com > - You must change the Subject: header of your reply to contain the > words: "PLEASE POST" (capitalization doesn't matter). (Note: this is the > Subject header of the message you send to us, not the subject header of the > article you wish to have posted). > > [The following string must not be changed/modified/wrapped/truncated.] > TRANSID:01cf30b47dc564615f9710844086b29c70f1177f90a1 > ===================================================================== ====== > From: @moa.net > Subject: Re: Concerning talk.religion.bahai Proposal > Newsgroups: news.groups > Message-Id: <856002504.340@dejanews.com> > Reply-To: @moa.net > Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service > To: srb-mods@bcca.org > References: <5e2bla$nvk@quest.cc.purdue.edu> > X-Article-Creation-Date: Sat Feb 15 10:28:24 1997 GMT > X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.34 (ppp-pm01-dy-2.ouhub.moa.net) > X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) > > In article , > desj@ccr-p.ida.org (David desJardins) wrote: > > > > Kelly G. Willis writes: > > > So, the question becomes, how does one vote on a newsgroup that will > > > be read initially, but not read after a certain point? > > > > This really isn't very complicated. If you think it would benefit you, > > for example by taking away unwanted traffic from other groups that you > > read, vote YES. If you think it would harm you, for example by taking > > away traffic that you now enjoy reading into a group that you would > > eventually stop reading, vote NO. If you don't think it would affect > > you one way or the other, nor help or harm Usenet as a whole in any > > particular way, don't vote. > > > > David desJardins > > > [clip] > > With all respect, this isn't quite accurate as I understand the > USEnet guidelines for voting. Yes: if you want it or would use it; > No: if opposed for technical reasons such as space, newsgroup name > considerations. Voting no because you don't like it prevents the > 100 or people who want it from froming it and participating and > therefore ideological reasons are invalid and unethical reasons. > Abstain: if your reasons are content, ideologically oriented. > > A few postings detailing this by people more proficient in > the process can be found on news.groups.... > > Frederick Glaysher > Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > > -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- > https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet > > ===================================================================== ====== > > WHAT TO DO IF YOU DID NOT REQUEST THIS POSTING: > ---------------------------------------------- > [This article has NOT yet been posted to Usenet. The reason we send this > email is to authenticate the author of articles we post.] > > If you did not request this article be posted to Usenet via the Deja News > service, that could mean someone using our service forged your address and > attempted to make this article appear as if you had posted it. The person > who did this used the IP address we log in the X-Originating-IP-Addr: > header field of the posting. This person may be able to be traced if you > contact the system administrator at their site. > > If you would like us to try to find out if someone forged your address, > please write to postnews@dejanews.com, include a statement like "I didn't > write this, please find out who did", and include this entire message. We > will try to help you as much as we can, but we are not a legal body and > other system administrators are not always cooperative, so we cannot > promise any results. We are sorry for any inconvenience. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Sat Feb 15 08:18:50 1997 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.34) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Sat, 15 Feb 1997 08:08:15 -0500 Message-ID: <3305B6FD.234@moa.net> Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 08:15:41 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dopost@grunt.dejanews.com Subject: please post References: <199702151043.EAA00563@grunt.dejanews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0004 Content-Length: 7564 dopost@grunt.dejanews.com wrote: > > [A reply is required to post your article. (If you did not request this, > please do not reply to this email, instead read the instructions at the > bottom of this note, and send any questions to postnews@dejanews.com).] > > You have requested that the following article be posted to Usenet via the > Posting Service at Deja News. Your article is currently sitting in our > spool waiting for you to authorize it by following the following > instructions: > > TO POST YOUR ARTICLE PLEASE READ AND FOLLOW THESE INSTRUCTIONS: > --------------------------------------------------------------- > - You must reply to this email, including the ENTIRE text of this email in > the reply. (It's okay if your email program inserts characters in the left > hand column, e.g. '>', or whatever). The reply MUST be sent to: > dopost@postnews.dejanews.com > - You must change the Subject: header of your reply to contain the > words: "PLEASE POST" (capitalization doesn't matter). (Note: this is the > Subject header of the message you send to us, not the subject header of the > article you wish to have posted). > > [The following string must not be changed/modified/wrapped/truncated.] > TRANSID:e17f30d4cd25f441f0cdfcc3fc0b4b896293b03faad4 > ===================================================================== ====== > From: @moa.net > Subject: Re: talk.religion.bahai - NEEDED > Newsgroups: news.groups > Message-Id: <856003406.551@dejanews.com> > Reply-To: @moa.net > Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service > To: rdetweil@primenet.com,srb-mods@bcca.org,robbbrobbb@aol.com > References: <19970214064401.BAA02439@ladder01.news.aol.com> <5e1tce$iq4@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> > X-Article-Creation-Date: Sat Feb 15 10:43:27 1997 GMT > X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.34 (ppp-pm01-dy-2.ouhub.moa.net) > X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) > > In article <5e1tce$iq4@nnrp1.news.primenet.com>, > rdetweil@primenet.com (Richard C. Detweiler) wrote: > > > > Once again, I would like to followup to a posting with regards to the > > moderation policies of soc.religion.bahai. I am not interested in > > swaying the vote for talk.religion.bahai either way. My only purpose is > > to give an accurate portrayal of the moderation of s.r.b. I urge everyone > > to use this information in deciding how to vote as their conscience > > sees fit. > > > > In article <19970214064401.BAA02439@ladder01.news.aol.com>, > > RobbbRobbb wrote: > > >Dear Baha'is, friends and seekers discussing the proposed talk. > > >religion.bahai newsgroup, > > > > [snip] > > > > > > > >Internet of the world. There could be talk that would be inappropriate > > for > > >a Baha'i meeting. Many newsgroups are full of unsavory postings which are > > >evident by their title. There is a simple solution, ignore them. The users > > >can choose between the moderated group and the unmoderated. By the > > >perceived need for excessive control of speech in the soc.religion.bahai > > >group we are sending people away from the faith not to it. The Baha'i > > >faith does not seek to control anyones thoughts. > > > > I agree with everything you say above. > > > > I've never alleged that the Bahai Faith "seeks to control anyone's > thoughts." I maintain that soc.religion.bahai does and has, and > evidence, requested by others, has been posted by me on news.groups. > > > > > > > You mention issues of homosexuality, women in the UHJ and censorship > > >as being *hot* issues that haven't made it to the newsgroup of late. Well > > >many people need these issues addressed time and time again. New people > > >are discovering newsgroups everyday. If they were covered three months ago > > >so what, they may need to be covered again. If you're not interested in a > > >subject scroll past it. It's that simple. This is the outside world we're > > >teaching to and hard questions are asked by every student. They should be > > >answered. Once they are we might not like what we hear. Acknowledge and > > >move on to the next question. > > > > [clip] > > > > > Censorship is a topic that may or may not be permissible on the newsgroup. > > If people want to debate censorship in Baha'i community life, what it is, > > and why they think it exists, they may do so. However, discussing the > > moderating policies are not appropriate, not because they should be > > suppressed but because those discussions take place on news.groups and > > another newsgroup specifically designed for discussions about moderators > > (the name escapes me now). When we reject such postings, we refer the > > poster to news.groups. > > > > To me, the result of this is actually to relegate the issue to > obscurity.... I believe the moderators understand that. As any > fair-minded person will who takes a moment to think about it.... > > > Thank you for allowing me to clarify these issues. I stand ready to > > discuss the moderation policies of soc.religion.bahai on news.groups > > during this RFD for talk.religion.bahai in hopes it can help people > > draw thir own conclusions based on the facts rather than hearsay. > > > > "Hearsay" is a biased way of phrasing.... Examples of censorship are > on news.groups because they were and are banned from soc.religion.bahai. > Postings from other people who state candidly that they too have > experienced censorship on srb are also there. If you are reading > soc.religion.bahai only on an email echo, you need to understand you > are at a distinct disadvantage during this discussion period on > talk.religion.bahai. Somehow gain access to news.groups under the > news.* hierarchy of USEnet. Read the direct evidence for yourself > and make up your own mind. > > > Dick Detweiler > > Frederick Glaysher > Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > > -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- > https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet > > ===================================================================== ====== > > WHAT TO DO IF YOU DID NOT REQUEST THIS POSTING: > ---------------------------------------------- > [This article has NOT yet been posted to Usenet. The reason we send this > email is to authenticate the author of articles we post.] > > If you did not request this article be posted to Usenet via the Deja News > service, that could mean someone using our service forged your address and > attempted to make this article appear as if you had posted it. The person > who did this used the IP address we log in the X-Originating-IP-Addr: > header field of the posting. This person may be able to be traced if you > contact the system administrator at their site. > > If you would like us to try to find out if someone forged your address, > please write to postnews@dejanews.com, include a statement like "I didn't > write this, please find out who did", and include this entire message. We > will try to help you as much as we can, but we are not a legal body and > other system administrators are not always cooperative, so we cannot > promise any results. We are sorry for any inconvenience. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Sat Feb 15 08:18:50 1997 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.34) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Sat, 15 Feb 1997 08:08:15 -0500 Message-ID: <3305B6FD.234@moa.net> Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 08:15:41 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dopost@grunt.dejanews.com Subject: please post References: <199702151043.EAA00563@grunt.dejanews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0004 Content-Length: 7564 dopost@grunt.dejanews.com wrote: > > [A reply is required to post your article. (If you did not request this, > please do not reply to this email, instead read the instructions at the > bottom of this note, and send any questions to postnews@dejanews.com).] > > You have requested that the following article be posted to Usenet via the > Posting Service at Deja News. Your article is currently sitting in our > spool waiting for you to authorize it by following the following > instructions: > > TO POST YOUR ARTICLE PLEASE READ AND FOLLOW THESE INSTRUCTIONS: > --------------------------------------------------------------- > - You must reply to this email, including the ENTIRE text of this email in > the reply. (It's okay if your email program inserts characters in the left > hand column, e.g. '>', or whatever). The reply MUST be sent to: > dopost@postnews.dejanews.com > - You must change the Subject: header of your reply to contain the > words: "PLEASE POST" (capitalization doesn't matter). (Note: this is the > Subject header of the message you send to us, not the subject header of the > article you wish to have posted). > > [The following string must not be changed/modified/wrapped/truncated.] > TRANSID:e17f30d4cd25f441f0cdfcc3fc0b4b896293b03faad4 > ===================================================================== ====== > From: @moa.net > Subject: Re: talk.religion.bahai - NEEDED > Newsgroups: news.groups > Message-Id: <856003406.551@dejanews.com> > Reply-To: @moa.net > Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service > To: rdetweil@primenet.com,srb-mods@bcca.org,robbbrobbb@aol.com > References: <19970214064401.BAA02439@ladder01.news.aol.com> <5e1tce$iq4@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> > X-Article-Creation-Date: Sat Feb 15 10:43:27 1997 GMT > X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.34 (ppp-pm01-dy-2.ouhub.moa.net) > X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) > > In article <5e1tce$iq4@nnrp1.news.primenet.com>, > rdetweil@primenet.com (Richard C. Detweiler) wrote: > > > > Once again, I would like to followup to a posting with regards to the > > moderation policies of soc.religion.bahai. I am not interested in > > swaying the vote for talk.religion.bahai either way. My only purpose is > > to give an accurate portrayal of the moderation of s.r.b. I urge everyone > > to use this information in deciding how to vote as their conscience > > sees fit. > > > > In article <19970214064401.BAA02439@ladder01.news.aol.com>, > > RobbbRobbb wrote: > > >Dear Baha'is, friends and seekers discussing the proposed talk. > > >religion.bahai newsgroup, > > > > [snip] > > > > > > > >Internet of the world. There could be talk that would be inappropriate > > for > > >a Baha'i meeting. Many newsgroups are full of unsavory postings which are > > >evident by their title. There is a simple solution, ignore them. The users > > >can choose between the moderated group and the unmoderated. By the > > >perceived need for excessive control of speech in the soc.religion.bahai > > >group we are sending people away from the faith not to it. The Baha'i > > >faith does not seek to control anyones thoughts. > > > > I agree with everything you say above. > > > > I've never alleged that the Bahai Faith "seeks to control anyone's > thoughts." I maintain that soc.religion.bahai does and has, and > evidence, requested by others, has been posted by me on news.groups. > > > > > > > You mention issues of homosexuality, women in the UHJ and censorship > > >as being *hot* issues that haven't made it to the newsgroup of late. Well > > >many people need these issues addressed time and time again. New people > > >are discovering newsgroups everyday. If they were covered three months ago > > >so what, they may need to be covered again. If you're not interested in a > > >subject scroll past it. It's that simple. This is the outside world we're > > >teaching to and hard questions are asked by every student. They should be > > >answered. Once they are we might not like what we hear. Acknowledge and > > >move on to the next question. > > > > [clip] > > > > > Censorship is a topic that may or may not be permissible on the newsgroup. > > If people want to debate censorship in Baha'i community life, what it is, > > and why they think it exists, they may do so. However, discussing the > > moderating policies are not appropriate, not because they should be > > suppressed but because those discussions take place on news.groups and > > another newsgroup specifically designed for discussions about moderators > > (the name escapes me now). When we reject such postings, we refer the > > poster to news.groups. > > > > To me, the result of this is actually to relegate the issue to > obscurity.... I believe the moderators understand that. As any > fair-minded person will who takes a moment to think about it.... > > > Thank you for allowing me to clarify these issues. I stand ready to > > discuss the moderation policies of soc.religion.bahai on news.groups > > during this RFD for talk.religion.bahai in hopes it can help people > > draw thir own conclusions based on the facts rather than hearsay. > > > > "Hearsay" is a biased way of phrasing.... Examples of censorship are > on news.groups because they were and are banned from soc.religion.bahai. > Postings from other people who state candidly that they too have > experienced censorship on srb are also there. If you are reading > soc.religion.bahai only on an email echo, you need to understand you > are at a distinct disadvantage during this discussion period on > talk.religion.bahai. Somehow gain access to news.groups under the > news.* hierarchy of USEnet. Read the direct evidence for yourself > and make up your own mind. > > > Dick Detweiler > > Frederick Glaysher > Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > > -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- > https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet > > ===================================================================== ====== > > WHAT TO DO IF YOU DID NOT REQUEST THIS POSTING: > ---------------------------------------------- > [This article has NOT yet been posted to Usenet. The reason we send this > email is to authenticate the author of articles we post.] > > If you did not request this article be posted to Usenet via the Deja News > service, that could mean someone using our service forged your address and > attempted to make this article appear as if you had posted it. The person > who did this used the IP address we log in the X-Originating-IP-Addr: > header field of the posting. This person may be able to be traced if you > contact the system administrator at their site. > > If you would like us to try to find out if someone forged your address, > please write to postnews@dejanews.com, include a statement like "I didn't > write this, please find out who did", and include this entire message. We > will try to help you as much as we can, but we are not a legal body and > other system administrators are not always cooperative, so we cannot > promise any results. We are sorry for any inconvenience. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Sat Feb 15 08:15:41 1997 BCC: @MOA.net Message-ID: <3305B6FD.234@moa.net> Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 08:15:41 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dopost@grunt.dejanews.com Subject: please post References: <199702151043.EAA00563@grunt.dejanews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 7566 dopost@grunt.dejanews.com wrote: > > [A reply is required to post your article. (If you did not request this, > please do not reply to this email, instead read the instructions at the > bottom of this note, and send any questions to postnews@dejanews.com).] > > You have requested that the following article be posted to Usenet via the > Posting Service at Deja News. Your article is currently sitting in our > spool waiting for you to authorize it by following the following > instructions: > > TO POST YOUR ARTICLE PLEASE READ AND FOLLOW THESE INSTRUCTIONS: > --------------------------------------------------------------- > - You must reply to this email, including the ENTIRE text of this email in > the reply. (It's okay if your email program inserts characters in the left > hand column, e.g. '>', or whatever). The reply MUST be sent to: > dopost@postnews.dejanews.com > - You must change the Subject: header of your reply to contain the > words: "PLEASE POST" (capitalization doesn't matter). (Note: this is the > Subject header of the message you send to us, not the subject header of the > article you wish to have posted). > > [The following string must not be changed/modified/wrapped/truncated.] > TRANSID:e17f30d4cd25f441f0cdfcc3fc0b4b896293b03faad4 > ===================================================================== ====== > From: @moa.net > Subject: Re: talk.religion.bahai - NEEDED > Newsgroups: news.groups > Message-Id: <856003406.551@dejanews.com> > Reply-To: @moa.net > Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service > To: rdetweil@primenet.com,srb-mods@bcca.org,robbbrobbb@aol.com > References: <19970214064401.BAA02439@ladder01.news.aol.com> <5e1tce$iq4@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> > X-Article-Creation-Date: Sat Feb 15 10:43:27 1997 GMT > X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.34 (ppp-pm01-dy-2.ouhub.moa.net) > X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) > > In article <5e1tce$iq4@nnrp1.news.primenet.com>, > rdetweil@primenet.com (Richard C. Detweiler) wrote: > > > > Once again, I would like to followup to a posting with regards to the > > moderation policies of soc.religion.bahai. I am not interested in > > swaying the vote for talk.religion.bahai either way. My only purpose is > > to give an accurate portrayal of the moderation of s.r.b. I urge everyone > > to use this information in deciding how to vote as their conscience > > sees fit. > > > > In article <19970214064401.BAA02439@ladder01.news.aol.com>, > > RobbbRobbb wrote: > > >Dear Baha'is, friends and seekers discussing the proposed talk. > > >religion.bahai newsgroup, > > > > [snip] > > > > > > > >Internet of the world. There could be talk that would be inappropriate > > for > > >a Baha'i meeting. Many newsgroups are full of unsavory postings which are > > >evident by their title. There is a simple solution, ignore them. The users > > >can choose between the moderated group and the unmoderated. By the > > >perceived need for excessive control of speech in the soc.religion.bahai > > >group we are sending people away from the faith not to it. The Baha'i > > >faith does not seek to control anyones thoughts. > > > > I agree with everything you say above. > > > > I've never alleged that the Bahai Faith "seeks to control anyone's > thoughts." I maintain that soc.religion.bahai does and has, and > evidence, requested by others, has been posted by me on news.groups. > > > > > > > You mention issues of homosexuality, women in the UHJ and censorship > > >as being *hot* issues that haven't made it to the newsgroup of late. Well > > >many people need these issues addressed time and time again. New people > > >are discovering newsgroups everyday. If they were covered three months ago > > >so what, they may need to be covered again. If you're not interested in a > > >subject scroll past it. It's that simple. This is the outside world we're > > >teaching to and hard questions are asked by every student. They should be > > >answered. Once they are we might not like what we hear. Acknowledge and > > >move on to the next question. > > > > [clip] > > > > > Censorship is a topic that may or may not be permissible on the newsgroup. > > If people want to debate censorship in Baha'i community life, what it is, > > and why they think it exists, they may do so. However, discussing the > > moderating policies are not appropriate, not because they should be > > suppressed but because those discussions take place on news.groups and > > another newsgroup specifically designed for discussions about moderators > > (the name escapes me now). When we reject such postings, we refer the > > poster to news.groups. > > > > To me, the result of this is actually to relegate the issue to > obscurity.... I believe the moderators understand that. As any > fair-minded person will who takes a moment to think about it.... > > > Thank you for allowing me to clarify these issues. I stand ready to > > discuss the moderation policies of soc.religion.bahai on news.groups > > during this RFD for talk.religion.bahai in hopes it can help people > > draw thir own conclusions based on the facts rather than hearsay. > > > > "Hearsay" is a biased way of phrasing.... Examples of censorship are > on news.groups because they were and are banned from soc.religion.bahai. > Postings from other people who state candidly that they too have > experienced censorship on srb are also there. If you are reading > soc.religion.bahai only on an email echo, you need to understand you > are at a distinct disadvantage during this discussion period on > talk.religion.bahai. Somehow gain access to news.groups under the > news.* hierarchy of USEnet. Read the direct evidence for yourself > and make up your own mind. > > > Dick Detweiler > > Frederick Glaysher > Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > > -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- > https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet > > ===================================================================== ====== > > WHAT TO DO IF YOU DID NOT REQUEST THIS POSTING: > ---------------------------------------------- > [This article has NOT yet been posted to Usenet. The reason we send this > email is to authenticate the author of articles we post.] > > If you did not request this article be posted to Usenet via the Deja News > service, that could mean someone using our service forged your address and > attempted to make this article appear as if you had posted it. The person > who did this used the IP address we log in the X-Originating-IP-Addr: > header field of the posting. This person may be able to be traced if you > contact the system administrator at their site. > > If you would like us to try to find out if someone forged your address, > please write to postnews@dejanews.com, include a statement like "I didn't > write this, please find out who did", and include this entire message. We > will try to help you as much as we can, but we are not a legal body and > other system administrators are not always cooperative, so we cannot > promise any results. We are sorry for any inconvenience. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Sat Feb 15 08:16:04 1997 BCC: @MOA.net Message-ID: <3305B714.188F@moa.net> Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 08:16:04 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dopost@grunt.dejanews.com Subject: please post References: <199702151053.EAA00722@grunt.dejanews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 5202 dopost@grunt.dejanews.com wrote: > > [A reply is required to post your article. (If you did not request this, > please do not reply to this email, instead read the instructions at the > bottom of this note, and send any questions to postnews@dejanews.com).] > > You have requested that the following article be posted to Usenet via the > Posting Service at Deja News. Your article is currently sitting in our > spool waiting for you to authorize it by following the following > instructions: > > TO POST YOUR ARTICLE PLEASE READ AND FOLLOW THESE INSTRUCTIONS: > --------------------------------------------------------------- > - You must reply to this email, including the ENTIRE text of this email in > the reply. (It's okay if your email program inserts characters in the left > hand column, e.g. '>', or whatever). The reply MUST be sent to: > dopost@postnews.dejanews.com > - You must change the Subject: header of your reply to contain the > words: "PLEASE POST" (capitalization doesn't matter). (Note: this is the > Subject header of the message you send to us, not the subject header of the > article you wish to have posted). > > [The following string must not be changed/modified/wrapped/truncated.] > TRANSID:015f10141d256441e04808ce2a891b1394889412e2ab > ===================================================================== ====== > From: @moa.net > Subject: T.r.bahai: Ploy > Newsgroups: news.groups > Message-Id: <856003998.714@dejanews.com> > Reply-To: @moa.net > Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service > To: srb-mods@bcca.org > References: <854889179.13648@dejanews.com> <32F4EC46.5EB3@why.net> <854976466.18697@dejanews.com> <32F66B3F.2C7C@east.sun.com> <32FF97F0.3B97@byu.edu> <3301FF8D.5EBD@byu.edu> > X-Article-Creation-Date: Sat Feb 15 10:53:18 1997 GMT > X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.34 (ppp-pm01-dy-2.ouhub.moa.net) > X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) > > In article , > emma@Kanpai.Stanford.EDU (Emma Pease) wrote: > > > > In <3301FF8D.5EBD@byu.edu> Robert Craig Harman writes: > > > > >Emma Pease wrote: > > > > [clip] > > > >This isn't a question of "political" no-voting, but a lack of > > >demonstrated need. > > > > Lack of demonstrated need is shown by lack of yes votes not by people > > voting no. If a 100+ people see a need for a group and there is no > > mechanical fault in the proposal (bad namespace choice, bad moderator, > > adverse effect on an already existing group[1]), they should get it. > > > > Arguing that there is a lack of demonstrated need can be used to > > persuade the proponents to not carry this on to a CFV. > > > > This clearly reveals, I believe, what the motivation is of the > people who continue to argue there's "a lack of demonstrated need" > for talk.religion.bahai.... They can't defeat it on a content or > other basis so that leaves them with undermining the proposal on > technical or procedural grounds.... The evidence on TRAFFIC > is posted to news.groups, the words of the moderators themselves > attesting to more than they could handle.... > > Nothing is going to persuade me that the CFV should actually go > to a vote. Everything, in my opinion, demonstrates how sorely > needed talk.religion.bahai is.... > > > Emma > > |_\/ emma@csli.stanford.edu Die Luft der Freiheit weht > > Frederick Glaysher > Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > > -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- > https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet > > ===================================================================== ====== > > WHAT TO DO IF YOU DID NOT REQUEST THIS POSTING: > ---------------------------------------------- > [This article has NOT yet been posted to Usenet. The reason we send this > email is to authenticate the author of articles we post.] > > If you did not request this article be posted to Usenet via the Deja News > service, that could mean someone using our service forged your address and > attempted to make this article appear as if you had posted it. The person > who did this used the IP address we log in the X-Originating-IP-Addr: > header field of the posting. This person may be able to be traced if you > contact the system administrator at their site. > > If you would like us to try to find out if someone forged your address, > please write to postnews@dejanews.com, include a statement like "I didn't > write this, please find out who did", and include this entire message. We > will try to help you as much as we can, but we are not a legal body and > other system administrators are not always cooperative, so we cannot > promise any results. We are sorry for any inconvenience. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Sat Feb 15 08:18:55 1997 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.34) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Sat, 15 Feb 1997 08:08:38 -0500 Message-ID: <3305B714.188F@moa.net> Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 08:16:04 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dopost@grunt.dejanews.com Subject: please post References: <199702151053.EAA00722@grunt.dejanews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0004 Content-Length: 5200 dopost@grunt.dejanews.com wrote: > > [A reply is required to post your article. (If you did not request this, > please do not reply to this email, instead read the instructions at the > bottom of this note, and send any questions to postnews@dejanews.com).] > > You have requested that the following article be posted to Usenet via the > Posting Service at Deja News. Your article is currently sitting in our > spool waiting for you to authorize it by following the following > instructions: > > TO POST YOUR ARTICLE PLEASE READ AND FOLLOW THESE INSTRUCTIONS: > --------------------------------------------------------------- > - You must reply to this email, including the ENTIRE text of this email in > the reply. (It's okay if your email program inserts characters in the left > hand column, e.g. '>', or whatever). The reply MUST be sent to: > dopost@postnews.dejanews.com > - You must change the Subject: header of your reply to contain the > words: "PLEASE POST" (capitalization doesn't matter). (Note: this is the > Subject header of the message you send to us, not the subject header of the > article you wish to have posted). > > [The following string must not be changed/modified/wrapped/truncated.] > TRANSID:015f10141d256441e04808ce2a891b1394889412e2ab > ===================================================================== ====== > From: @moa.net > Subject: T.r.bahai: Ploy > Newsgroups: news.groups > Message-Id: <856003998.714@dejanews.com> > Reply-To: @moa.net > Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service > To: srb-mods@bcca.org > References: <854889179.13648@dejanews.com> <32F4EC46.5EB3@why.net> <854976466.18697@dejanews.com> <32F66B3F.2C7C@east.sun.com> <32FF97F0.3B97@byu.edu> <3301FF8D.5EBD@byu.edu> > X-Article-Creation-Date: Sat Feb 15 10:53:18 1997 GMT > X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.34 (ppp-pm01-dy-2.ouhub.moa.net) > X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) > > In article , > emma@Kanpai.Stanford.EDU (Emma Pease) wrote: > > > > In <3301FF8D.5EBD@byu.edu> Robert Craig Harman writes: > > > > >Emma Pease wrote: > > > > [clip] > > > >This isn't a question of "political" no-voting, but a lack of > > >demonstrated need. > > > > Lack of demonstrated need is shown by lack of yes votes not by people > > voting no. If a 100+ people see a need for a group and there is no > > mechanical fault in the proposal (bad namespace choice, bad moderator, > > adverse effect on an already existing group[1]), they should get it. > > > > Arguing that there is a lack of demonstrated need can be used to > > persuade the proponents to not carry this on to a CFV. > > > > This clearly reveals, I believe, what the motivation is of the > people who continue to argue there's "a lack of demonstrated need" > for talk.religion.bahai.... They can't defeat it on a content or > other basis so that leaves them with undermining the proposal on > technical or procedural grounds.... The evidence on TRAFFIC > is posted to news.groups, the words of the moderators themselves > attesting to more than they could handle.... > > Nothing is going to persuade me that the CFV should actually go > to a vote. Everything, in my opinion, demonstrates how sorely > needed talk.religion.bahai is.... > > > Emma > > |_\/ emma@csli.stanford.edu Die Luft der Freiheit weht > > Frederick Glaysher > Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > > -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- > https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet > > ===================================================================== ====== > > WHAT TO DO IF YOU DID NOT REQUEST THIS POSTING: > ---------------------------------------------- > [This article has NOT yet been posted to Usenet. The reason we send this > email is to authenticate the author of articles we post.] > > If you did not request this article be posted to Usenet via the Deja News > service, that could mean someone using our service forged your address and > attempted to make this article appear as if you had posted it. The person > who did this used the IP address we log in the X-Originating-IP-Addr: > header field of the posting. This person may be able to be traced if you > contact the system administrator at their site. > > If you would like us to try to find out if someone forged your address, > please write to postnews@dejanews.com, include a statement like "I didn't > write this, please find out who did", and include this entire message. We > will try to help you as much as we can, but we are not a legal body and > other system administrators are not always cooperative, so we cannot > promise any results. We are sorry for any inconvenience. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Sat Feb 15 08:18:55 1997 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.34) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Sat, 15 Feb 1997 08:08:38 -0500 Message-ID: <3305B714.188F@moa.net> Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 08:16:04 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dopost@grunt.dejanews.com Subject: please post References: <199702151053.EAA00722@grunt.dejanews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0004 Content-Length: 5200 dopost@grunt.dejanews.com wrote: > > [A reply is required to post your article. (If you did not request this, > please do not reply to this email, instead read the instructions at the > bottom of this note, and send any questions to postnews@dejanews.com).] > > You have requested that the following article be posted to Usenet via the > Posting Service at Deja News. Your article is currently sitting in our > spool waiting for you to authorize it by following the following > instructions: > > TO POST YOUR ARTICLE PLEASE READ AND FOLLOW THESE INSTRUCTIONS: > --------------------------------------------------------------- > - You must reply to this email, including the ENTIRE text of this email in > the reply. (It's okay if your email program inserts characters in the left > hand column, e.g. '>', or whatever). The reply MUST be sent to: > dopost@postnews.dejanews.com > - You must change the Subject: header of your reply to contain the > words: "PLEASE POST" (capitalization doesn't matter). (Note: this is the > Subject header of the message you send to us, not the subject header of the > article you wish to have posted). > > [The following string must not be changed/modified/wrapped/truncated.] > TRANSID:015f10141d256441e04808ce2a891b1394889412e2ab > ===================================================================== ====== > From: @moa.net > Subject: T.r.bahai: Ploy > Newsgroups: news.groups > Message-Id: <856003998.714@dejanews.com> > Reply-To: @moa.net > Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service > To: srb-mods@bcca.org > References: <854889179.13648@dejanews.com> <32F4EC46.5EB3@why.net> <854976466.18697@dejanews.com> <32F66B3F.2C7C@east.sun.com> <32FF97F0.3B97@byu.edu> <3301FF8D.5EBD@byu.edu> > X-Article-Creation-Date: Sat Feb 15 10:53:18 1997 GMT > X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.34 (ppp-pm01-dy-2.ouhub.moa.net) > X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) > > In article , > emma@Kanpai.Stanford.EDU (Emma Pease) wrote: > > > > In <3301FF8D.5EBD@byu.edu> Robert Craig Harman writes: > > > > >Emma Pease wrote: > > > > [clip] > > > >This isn't a question of "political" no-voting, but a lack of > > >demonstrated need. > > > > Lack of demonstrated need is shown by lack of yes votes not by people > > voting no. If a 100+ people see a need for a group and there is no > > mechanical fault in the proposal (bad namespace choice, bad moderator, > > adverse effect on an already existing group[1]), they should get it. > > > > Arguing that there is a lack of demonstrated need can be used to > > persuade the proponents to not carry this on to a CFV. > > > > This clearly reveals, I believe, what the motivation is of the > people who continue to argue there's "a lack of demonstrated need" > for talk.religion.bahai.... They can't defeat it on a content or > other basis so that leaves them with undermining the proposal on > technical or procedural grounds.... The evidence on TRAFFIC > is posted to news.groups, the words of the moderators themselves > attesting to more than they could handle.... > > Nothing is going to persuade me that the CFV should actually go > to a vote. Everything, in my opinion, demonstrates how sorely > needed talk.religion.bahai is.... > > > Emma > > |_\/ emma@csli.stanford.edu Die Luft der Freiheit weht > > Frederick Glaysher > Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > > -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- > https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet > > ===================================================================== ====== > > WHAT TO DO IF YOU DID NOT REQUEST THIS POSTING: > ---------------------------------------------- > [This article has NOT yet been posted to Usenet. The reason we send this > email is to authenticate the author of articles we post.] > > If you did not request this article be posted to Usenet via the Deja News > service, that could mean someone using our service forged your address and > attempted to make this article appear as if you had posted it. The person > who did this used the IP address we log in the X-Originating-IP-Addr: > header field of the posting. This person may be able to be traced if you > contact the system administrator at their site. > > If you would like us to try to find out if someone forged your address, > please write to postnews@dejanews.com, include a statement like "I didn't > write this, please find out who did", and include this entire message. We > will try to help you as much as we can, but we are not a legal body and > other system administrators are not always cooperative, so we cannot > promise any results. We are sorry for any inconvenience. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Sat Feb 15 08:16:38 1997 BCC: @MOA.net Message-ID: <3305B736.1F98@moa.net> Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 08:16:38 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dopost@grunt.dejanews.com Subject: please post References: <199702151053.EAA00722@grunt.dejanews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 5202 dopost@grunt.dejanews.com wrote: > > [A reply is required to post your article. (If you did not request this, > please do not reply to this email, instead read the instructions at the > bottom of this note, and send any questions to postnews@dejanews.com).] > > You have requested that the following article be posted to Usenet via the > Posting Service at Deja News. Your article is currently sitting in our > spool waiting for you to authorize it by following the following > instructions: > > TO POST YOUR ARTICLE PLEASE READ AND FOLLOW THESE INSTRUCTIONS: > --------------------------------------------------------------- > - You must reply to this email, including the ENTIRE text of this email in > the reply. (It's okay if your email program inserts characters in the left > hand column, e.g. '>', or whatever). The reply MUST be sent to: > dopost@postnews.dejanews.com > - You must change the Subject: header of your reply to contain the > words: "PLEASE POST" (capitalization doesn't matter). (Note: this is the > Subject header of the message you send to us, not the subject header of the > article you wish to have posted). > > [The following string must not be changed/modified/wrapped/truncated.] > TRANSID:015f10141d256441e04808ce2a891b1394889412e2ab > ===================================================================== ====== > From: @moa.net > Subject: T.r.bahai: Ploy > Newsgroups: news.groups > Message-Id: <856003998.714@dejanews.com> > Reply-To: @moa.net > Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service > To: srb-mods@bcca.org > References: <854889179.13648@dejanews.com> <32F4EC46.5EB3@why.net> <854976466.18697@dejanews.com> <32F66B3F.2C7C@east.sun.com> <32FF97F0.3B97@byu.edu> <3301FF8D.5EBD@byu.edu> > X-Article-Creation-Date: Sat Feb 15 10:53:18 1997 GMT > X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.34 (ppp-pm01-dy-2.ouhub.moa.net) > X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) > > In article , > emma@Kanpai.Stanford.EDU (Emma Pease) wrote: > > > > In <3301FF8D.5EBD@byu.edu> Robert Craig Harman writes: > > > > >Emma Pease wrote: > > > > [clip] > > > >This isn't a question of "political" no-voting, but a lack of > > >demonstrated need. > > > > Lack of demonstrated need is shown by lack of yes votes not by people > > voting no. If a 100+ people see a need for a group and there is no > > mechanical fault in the proposal (bad namespace choice, bad moderator, > > adverse effect on an already existing group[1]), they should get it. > > > > Arguing that there is a lack of demonstrated need can be used to > > persuade the proponents to not carry this on to a CFV. > > > > This clearly reveals, I believe, what the motivation is of the > people who continue to argue there's "a lack of demonstrated need" > for talk.religion.bahai.... They can't defeat it on a content or > other basis so that leaves them with undermining the proposal on > technical or procedural grounds.... The evidence on TRAFFIC > is posted to news.groups, the words of the moderators themselves > attesting to more than they could handle.... > > Nothing is going to persuade me that the CFV should actually go > to a vote. Everything, in my opinion, demonstrates how sorely > needed talk.religion.bahai is.... > > > Emma > > |_\/ emma@csli.stanford.edu Die Luft der Freiheit weht > > Frederick Glaysher > Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > > -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- > https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet > > ===================================================================== ====== > > WHAT TO DO IF YOU DID NOT REQUEST THIS POSTING: > ---------------------------------------------- > [This article has NOT yet been posted to Usenet. The reason we send this > email is to authenticate the author of articles we post.] > > If you did not request this article be posted to Usenet via the Deja News > service, that could mean someone using our service forged your address and > attempted to make this article appear as if you had posted it. The person > who did this used the IP address we log in the X-Originating-IP-Addr: > header field of the posting. This person may be able to be traced if you > contact the system administrator at their site. > > If you would like us to try to find out if someone forged your address, > please write to postnews@dejanews.com, include a statement like "I didn't > write this, please find out who did", and include this entire message. We > will try to help you as much as we can, but we are not a legal body and > other system administrators are not always cooperative, so we cannot > promise any results. We are sorry for any inconvenience. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Sat Feb 15 08:18:58 1997 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.34) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Sat, 15 Feb 1997 08:09:11 -0500 Message-ID: <3305B736.1F98@moa.net> Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 08:16:38 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dopost@grunt.dejanews.com Subject: please post References: <199702151053.EAA00722@grunt.dejanews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0004 Content-Length: 5200 dopost@grunt.dejanews.com wrote: > > [A reply is required to post your article. (If you did not request this, > please do not reply to this email, instead read the instructions at the > bottom of this note, and send any questions to postnews@dejanews.com).] > > You have requested that the following article be posted to Usenet via the > Posting Service at Deja News. Your article is currently sitting in our > spool waiting for you to authorize it by following the following > instructions: > > TO POST YOUR ARTICLE PLEASE READ AND FOLLOW THESE INSTRUCTIONS: > --------------------------------------------------------------- > - You must reply to this email, including the ENTIRE text of this email in > the reply. (It's okay if your email program inserts characters in the left > hand column, e.g. '>', or whatever). The reply MUST be sent to: > dopost@postnews.dejanews.com > - You must change the Subject: header of your reply to contain the > words: "PLEASE POST" (capitalization doesn't matter). (Note: this is the > Subject header of the message you send to us, not the subject header of the > article you wish to have posted). > > [The following string must not be changed/modified/wrapped/truncated.] > TRANSID:015f10141d256441e04808ce2a891b1394889412e2ab > ===================================================================== ====== > From: @moa.net > Subject: T.r.bahai: Ploy > Newsgroups: news.groups > Message-Id: <856003998.714@dejanews.com> > Reply-To: @moa.net > Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service > To: srb-mods@bcca.org > References: <854889179.13648@dejanews.com> <32F4EC46.5EB3@why.net> <854976466.18697@dejanews.com> <32F66B3F.2C7C@east.sun.com> <32FF97F0.3B97@byu.edu> <3301FF8D.5EBD@byu.edu> > X-Article-Creation-Date: Sat Feb 15 10:53:18 1997 GMT > X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.34 (ppp-pm01-dy-2.ouhub.moa.net) > X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) > > In article , > emma@Kanpai.Stanford.EDU (Emma Pease) wrote: > > > > In <3301FF8D.5EBD@byu.edu> Robert Craig Harman writes: > > > > >Emma Pease wrote: > > > > [clip] > > > >This isn't a question of "political" no-voting, but a lack of > > >demonstrated need. > > > > Lack of demonstrated need is shown by lack of yes votes not by people > > voting no. If a 100+ people see a need for a group and there is no > > mechanical fault in the proposal (bad namespace choice, bad moderator, > > adverse effect on an already existing group[1]), they should get it. > > > > Arguing that there is a lack of demonstrated need can be used to > > persuade the proponents to not carry this on to a CFV. > > > > This clearly reveals, I believe, what the motivation is of the > people who continue to argue there's "a lack of demonstrated need" > for talk.religion.bahai.... They can't defeat it on a content or > other basis so that leaves them with undermining the proposal on > technical or procedural grounds.... The evidence on TRAFFIC > is posted to news.groups, the words of the moderators themselves > attesting to more than they could handle.... > > Nothing is going to persuade me that the CFV should actually go > to a vote. Everything, in my opinion, demonstrates how sorely > needed talk.religion.bahai is.... > > > Emma > > |_\/ emma@csli.stanford.edu Die Luft der Freiheit weht > > Frederick Glaysher > Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > > -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- > https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet > > ===================================================================== ====== > > WHAT TO DO IF YOU DID NOT REQUEST THIS POSTING: > ---------------------------------------------- > [This article has NOT yet been posted to Usenet. The reason we send this > email is to authenticate the author of articles we post.] > > If you did not request this article be posted to Usenet via the Deja News > service, that could mean someone using our service forged your address and > attempted to make this article appear as if you had posted it. The person > who did this used the IP address we log in the X-Originating-IP-Addr: > header field of the posting. This person may be able to be traced if you > contact the system administrator at their site. > > If you would like us to try to find out if someone forged your address, > please write to postnews@dejanews.com, include a statement like "I didn't > write this, please find out who did", and include this entire message. We > will try to help you as much as we can, but we are not a legal body and > other system administrators are not always cooperative, so we cannot > promise any results. We are sorry for any inconvenience. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Sat Feb 15 08:18:58 1997 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.34) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Sat, 15 Feb 1997 08:09:11 -0500 Message-ID: <3305B736.1F98@moa.net> Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 08:16:38 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dopost@grunt.dejanews.com Subject: please post References: <199702151053.EAA00722@grunt.dejanews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0004 Content-Length: 5200 dopost@grunt.dejanews.com wrote: > > [A reply is required to post your article. (If you did not request this, > please do not reply to this email, instead read the instructions at the > bottom of this note, and send any questions to postnews@dejanews.com).] > > You have requested that the following article be posted to Usenet via the > Posting Service at Deja News. Your article is currently sitting in our > spool waiting for you to authorize it by following the following > instructions: > > TO POST YOUR ARTICLE PLEASE READ AND FOLLOW THESE INSTRUCTIONS: > --------------------------------------------------------------- > - You must reply to this email, including the ENTIRE text of this email in > the reply. (It's okay if your email program inserts characters in the left > hand column, e.g. '>', or whatever). The reply MUST be sent to: > dopost@postnews.dejanews.com > - You must change the Subject: header of your reply to contain the > words: "PLEASE POST" (capitalization doesn't matter). (Note: this is the > Subject header of the message you send to us, not the subject header of the > article you wish to have posted). > > [The following string must not be changed/modified/wrapped/truncated.] > TRANSID:015f10141d256441e04808ce2a891b1394889412e2ab > ===================================================================== ====== > From: @moa.net > Subject: T.r.bahai: Ploy > Newsgroups: news.groups > Message-Id: <856003998.714@dejanews.com> > Reply-To: @moa.net > Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service > To: srb-mods@bcca.org > References: <854889179.13648@dejanews.com> <32F4EC46.5EB3@why.net> <854976466.18697@dejanews.com> <32F66B3F.2C7C@east.sun.com> <32FF97F0.3B97@byu.edu> <3301FF8D.5EBD@byu.edu> > X-Article-Creation-Date: Sat Feb 15 10:53:18 1997 GMT > X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.34 (ppp-pm01-dy-2.ouhub.moa.net) > X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) > > In article , > emma@Kanpai.Stanford.EDU (Emma Pease) wrote: > > > > In <3301FF8D.5EBD@byu.edu> Robert Craig Harman writes: > > > > >Emma Pease wrote: > > > > [clip] > > > >This isn't a question of "political" no-voting, but a lack of > > >demonstrated need. > > > > Lack of demonstrated need is shown by lack of yes votes not by people > > voting no. If a 100+ people see a need for a group and there is no > > mechanical fault in the proposal (bad namespace choice, bad moderator, > > adverse effect on an already existing group[1]), they should get it. > > > > Arguing that there is a lack of demonstrated need can be used to > > persuade the proponents to not carry this on to a CFV. > > > > This clearly reveals, I believe, what the motivation is of the > people who continue to argue there's "a lack of demonstrated need" > for talk.religion.bahai.... They can't defeat it on a content or > other basis so that leaves them with undermining the proposal on > technical or procedural grounds.... The evidence on TRAFFIC > is posted to news.groups, the words of the moderators themselves > attesting to more than they could handle.... > > Nothing is going to persuade me that the CFV should actually go > to a vote. Everything, in my opinion, demonstrates how sorely > needed talk.religion.bahai is.... > > > Emma > > |_\/ emma@csli.stanford.edu Die Luft der Freiheit weht > > Frederick Glaysher > Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > > -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- > https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet > > ===================================================================== ====== > > WHAT TO DO IF YOU DID NOT REQUEST THIS POSTING: > ---------------------------------------------- > [This article has NOT yet been posted to Usenet. The reason we send this > email is to authenticate the author of articles we post.] > > If you did not request this article be posted to Usenet via the Deja News > service, that could mean someone using our service forged your address and > attempted to make this article appear as if you had posted it. The person > who did this used the IP address we log in the X-Originating-IP-Addr: > header field of the posting. This person may be able to be traced if you > contact the system administrator at their site. > > If you would like us to try to find out if someone forged your address, > please write to postnews@dejanews.com, include a statement like "I didn't > write this, please find out who did", and include this entire message. We > will try to help you as much as we can, but we are not a legal body and > other system administrators are not always cooperative, so we cannot > promise any results. We are sorry for any inconvenience. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Sat Feb 15 10:12:52 1997 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.86) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Sat, 15 Feb 1997 10:00:50 -0500 Message-ID: <3305D15B.3895@moa.net> Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 10:08:11 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dopost@grunt.dejanews.com Subject: please post References: <199702151336.HAA04362@grunt.dejanews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 5544 dopost@grunt.dejanews.com wrote: > > [A reply is required to post your article. (If you did not request this, > please do not reply to this email, instead read the instructions at the > bottom of this note, and send any questions to postnews@dejanews.com).] > > You have requested that the following article be posted to Usenet via the > Posting Service at Deja News. Your article is currently sitting in our > spool waiting for you to authorize it by following the following > instructions: > > TO POST YOUR ARTICLE PLEASE READ AND FOLLOW THESE INSTRUCTIONS: > --------------------------------------------------------------- > - You must reply to this email, including the ENTIRE text of this email in > the reply. (It's okay if your email program inserts characters in the left > hand column, e.g. '>', or whatever). The reply MUST be sent to: > dopost@postnews.dejanews.com > - You must change the Subject: header of your reply to contain the > words: "PLEASE POST" (capitalization doesn't matter). (Note: this is the > Subject header of the message you send to us, not the subject header of the > article you wish to have posted). > > [The following string must not be changed/modified/wrapped/truncated.] > TRANSID:510f60f47db50451d01d1612fc86c6abc9766c525699 > ===================================================================== ====== > From: @moa.net > Subject: Response #2: Steve Burgess > Newsgroups: news.groups > Message-Id: <856013763.4345@dejanews.com> > Reply-To: @moa.net > Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service > To: srb-mods@bcca.org > X-Article-Creation-Date: Sat Feb 15 13:36:03 1997 GMT > X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.86 (ppp-pm02-dy-22.ouhub.moa.net) > X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) > > Dr Steve Burgess wrote: > > > > Rick Shaut wrote (inpart quoting a letter from the Universal House of > > Justice about the Talisman affair): > > > > >"Through such activities, and the mutual support that they give to one > > another, these friends have increasingly assumed the appearance of a > > dissident group of Baha'is who are attempting to arouse widespread > > dissatisfaction in the community and thereby to bring about changes in > > the structure and principles of Baha'i administration, making it accord > more > > closely with their personal notions. Such an activity is closely > analogous > > to the pursuit of a partisan political program, an activity which is > > accepted and even admired in most societies, but is entirely > antithetical > > to the spirit of the Baha'i Faith. It promotes an atmosphere of > > contention, and Baha'u'llah has expressly stated: "Conflict and > contention > > are categorically forbidden in His Book."' > > > > >I can only state that this letter describes, quite accurately, the > kinds of activities I saw when Talisman I was still in operation. > > > > Fred Glaysher wrote (in response to RobbbRobbb@aol.com's assertion that > > moderation of soc.religion.bahai constituted censorship and that he was > > thus supporting the notion of tal.religion.bahai. > > > > > I appreciate your honest contribution. You're a rare Bahai.... > > > > > I found the juxtaposition illustrative! > > > > Regards > > Steve > > On further reflection, this juxtaposition that you seem to delight in > appears to me reminiscent of the red-baiting tactics of the Cold War > world. Once that was done the individual was essentially blacklisted > without any hearing or trial. Is that what you're hoping for? If so, > why? Your earlier posts, in retrospect, are curious too. While you > picked up the Subject header for talk.religion.bahai, your discussion > ranged over other topics. Why? Please be frank and state your true > opinions instead of insinuations and attempts, apparently, at black > balling me by intimating associations I've never had.... > > -- > Frederick Glaysher > Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > > -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- > https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet > > ===================================================================== ====== > > WHAT TO DO IF YOU DID NOT REQUEST THIS POSTING: > ---------------------------------------------- > [This article has NOT yet been posted to Usenet. The reason we send this > email is to authenticate the author of articles we post.] > > If you did not request this article be posted to Usenet via the Deja News > service, that could mean someone using our service forged your address and > attempted to make this article appear as if you had posted it. The person > who did this used the IP address we log in the X-Originating-IP-Addr: > header field of the posting. This person may be able to be traced if you > contact the system administrator at their site. > > If you would like us to try to find out if someone forged your address, > please write to postnews@dejanews.com, include a statement like "I didn't > write this, please find out who did", and include this entire message. We > will try to help you as much as we can, but we are not a legal body and > other system administrators are not always cooperative, so we cannot > promise any results. We are sorry for any inconvenience. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Sat Feb 15 10:08:11 1997 BCC: @MOA.net Message-ID: <3305D15B.3895@moa.net> Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 10:08:11 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dopost@grunt.dejanews.com Subject: please post References: <199702151336.HAA04362@grunt.dejanews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 5546 dopost@grunt.dejanews.com wrote: > > [A reply is required to post your article. (If you did not request this, > please do not reply to this email, instead read the instructions at the > bottom of this note, and send any questions to postnews@dejanews.com).] > > You have requested that the following article be posted to Usenet via the > Posting Service at Deja News. Your article is currently sitting in our > spool waiting for you to authorize it by following the following > instructions: > > TO POST YOUR ARTICLE PLEASE READ AND FOLLOW THESE INSTRUCTIONS: > --------------------------------------------------------------- > - You must reply to this email, including the ENTIRE text of this email in > the reply. (It's okay if your email program inserts characters in the left > hand column, e.g. '>', or whatever). The reply MUST be sent to: > dopost@postnews.dejanews.com > - You must change the Subject: header of your reply to contain the > words: "PLEASE POST" (capitalization doesn't matter). (Note: this is the > Subject header of the message you send to us, not the subject header of the > article you wish to have posted). > > [The following string must not be changed/modified/wrapped/truncated.] > TRANSID:510f60f47db50451d01d1612fc86c6abc9766c525699 > ===================================================================== ====== > From: @moa.net > Subject: Response #2: Steve Burgess > Newsgroups: news.groups > Message-Id: <856013763.4345@dejanews.com> > Reply-To: @moa.net > Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service > To: srb-mods@bcca.org > X-Article-Creation-Date: Sat Feb 15 13:36:03 1997 GMT > X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.86 (ppp-pm02-dy-22.ouhub.moa.net) > X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) > > Dr Steve Burgess wrote: > > > > Rick Shaut wrote (inpart quoting a letter from the Universal House of > > Justice about the Talisman affair): > > > > >"Through such activities, and the mutual support that they give to one > > another, these friends have increasingly assumed the appearance of a > > dissident group of Baha'is who are attempting to arouse widespread > > dissatisfaction in the community and thereby to bring about changes in > > the structure and principles of Baha'i administration, making it accord > more > > closely with their personal notions. Such an activity is closely > analogous > > to the pursuit of a partisan political program, an activity which is > > accepted and even admired in most societies, but is entirely > antithetical > > to the spirit of the Baha'i Faith. It promotes an atmosphere of > > contention, and Baha'u'llah has expressly stated: "Conflict and > contention > > are categorically forbidden in His Book."' > > > > >I can only state that this letter describes, quite accurately, the > kinds of activities I saw when Talisman I was still in operation. > > > > Fred Glaysher wrote (in response to RobbbRobbb@aol.com's assertion that > > moderation of soc.religion.bahai constituted censorship and that he was > > thus supporting the notion of tal.religion.bahai. > > > > > I appreciate your honest contribution. You're a rare Bahai.... > > > > > I found the juxtaposition illustrative! > > > > Regards > > Steve > > On further reflection, this juxtaposition that you seem to delight in > appears to me reminiscent of the red-baiting tactics of the Cold War > world. Once that was done the individual was essentially blacklisted > without any hearing or trial. Is that what you're hoping for? If so, > why? Your earlier posts, in retrospect, are curious too. While you > picked up the Subject header for talk.religion.bahai, your discussion > ranged over other topics. Why? Please be frank and state your true > opinions instead of insinuations and attempts, apparently, at black > balling me by intimating associations I've never had.... > > -- > Frederick Glaysher > Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > > -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- > https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet > > ===================================================================== ====== > > WHAT TO DO IF YOU DID NOT REQUEST THIS POSTING: > ---------------------------------------------- > [This article has NOT yet been posted to Usenet. The reason we send this > email is to authenticate the author of articles we post.] > > If you did not request this article be posted to Usenet via the Deja News > service, that could mean someone using our service forged your address and > attempted to make this article appear as if you had posted it. The person > who did this used the IP address we log in the X-Originating-IP-Addr: > header field of the posting. This person may be able to be traced if you > contact the system administrator at their site. > > If you would like us to try to find out if someone forged your address, > please write to postnews@dejanews.com, include a statement like "I didn't > write this, please find out who did", and include this entire message. We > will try to help you as much as we can, but we are not a legal body and > other system administrators are not always cooperative, so we cannot > promise any results. We are sorry for any inconvenience. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Sun Feb 16 11:34:59 1997 Received: from default (204.38.255.186) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Sun, 16 Feb 1997 11:22:16 -0500 Message-ID: <330735F4.667F@moa.net> Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 11:29:40 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dopost@grunt.dejanews.com Subject: please post References: <199702161314.HAA11554@grunt.dejanews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 12290 dopost@grunt.dejanews.com wrote: > > [A reply is required to post your article. (If you did not request this, > please do not reply to this email, instead read the instructions at the > bottom of this note, and send any questions to postnews@dejanews.com).] > > You have requested that the following article be posted to Usenet via the > Posting Service at Deja News. Your article is currently sitting in our > spool waiting for you to authorize it by following the following > instructions: > > TO POST YOUR ARTICLE PLEASE READ AND FOLLOW THESE INSTRUCTIONS: > --------------------------------------------------------------- > - You must reply to this email, including the ENTIRE text of this email in > the reply. (It's okay if your email program inserts characters in the left > hand column, e.g. '>', or whatever). The reply MUST be sent to: > dopost@postnews.dejanews.com > - You must change the Subject: header of your reply to contain the > words: "PLEASE POST" (capitalization doesn't matter). (Note: this is the > Subject header of the message you send to us, not the subject header of the > article you wish to have posted). > > [The following string must not be changed/modified/wrapped/truncated.] > TRANSID:41df20145db5241133c00e7828739ce07807b0214077 > ===================================================================== ====== > From: FG <@moa.net> > Subject: S.R.Bahai Censored 2-16-87: Dr. Steve Burgess > Newsgroups: news.groups > Message-Id: <856098780.11532@dejanews.com> > Reply-To: Frederick Glaysher <@moa.net> > Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service > To: srb-mods@bcca.org > X-Article-Creation-Date: Sun Feb 16 13:13:03 1997 GMT > X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.68 (ppp-pm02-dy-4.ouhub.moa.net) > X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) > > PLEASE READ THIS AND DECIDE FOR YOURSELF. FREDERICK GLAYSHER > > Subject: > Re: Response #2: Dr. Steve Burgess > Date: > Sat, 15 Feb 1997 09:27:12 -0700 (MST) > From: > "Richard C. Detweiler" > To: > @moa.net > CC: > srb-mods@bcca.org > > > Fred, > > It is becoming obvious that you are only looking to spread rancor and > discord. It is time to stop it. Your points have gotten across in > your many other posts which we have dutifully put on the newsgroup. > There is no need to continue stirring up strife by always questioning > the motives of every individual that dare think differently than yourself. > > I HAVE TO USE CAPS TO DISTINGUISH MY RESPONSE FROM YOURS. PLEASE DO > NOT MISINTERPRET THEM AS THOUGH I WERE SHOUTING (I'M TOLD THAT'S > CONSIDERED A CONVENTION NOW BY SOME). I AM NOT LOOKING TO SPREAD > "RANCOR AND DISCORD." YOUR REFUSAL TO POST THIS MESSAGE IS AN UNFAIR > USE OF YOUR POSITION AS A MODERATOR. DR. STEVE BURGESS INTIMATED > HIGHLY DISAGREEABLE THINGS IN REGARD TO MY MOTIVES. HE HIT CLEARLY > BELOW THE BELT HERE. HIS TACTIC IS TANTAMOUNT IN A BAHAI CONTEXT > TO SOMEONE SCREAMING FIRE IN A THEATER.... YOUR SHIELDING HIM OF > MY CALLING HIM TO ACCOUNT ON IT SEEMS TO ME TO BE TAKING SIDES AND > PERMITTING HIM AN ADVANTAGE. HIS UNSEEMLY ALLEGATION APPEAR ON > SOC.RELIGION.BAHAI, WHILE YOU ARE SUPPRESSING MY RESPONSE AND > DENYING ME THE REASONABLE RIGHT OF SELF-DEFENSE. > > If you would like to engage Dr. Burgess in exploring why he feels the > way he does, you may do so in a respectful manner. But your childish > insistence on being heard at all costs and no matter what your affect > is on others is going to stop being propogated to soc.religion.bahai no > matter what the status of the RFD. You may discuss the RFD with others > but we will insist on a mature discourse from you in the future. > > THERE IS NOTHING DISRESPECTFUL ABOUT MY RESPONSE BELOW. I SUGGEST > THE DISRESPECT IS ON HIS PART. HE CLEARLY INTIMATES UNSEEMLY AND > REPREHENSIBLE MOTIVES ON MY PART WITHOUT HAVING THE COURAGE AND > FORTHRIGHTNESS TO COME OUT AND SAY WHAT HE TRULY, APPARENTLY, THINKS. > YOUR DERISIVE CHARACTERIZATION OF MY RIGHT TO BE HEARD AS "CHILDISH" > WOEFULLY MISSES THE POINT AND REVEALS YOUR LACK OF RESPECT FOR > FAIRPLAY. YOUR DERIDING MY OPINIONS AS NOT CONSTITUTING "MATURE > DISCOURSE" HAS THE SAME EFFECT. APPARENTLY YOU THINK HIS INTIMATIONS > WERE "MATURE DISCOURSE." > > Once again, feel free to send this to news.groups. It will have no > bearing > on how things are moderated on this newsgroup. I for one, have gone out > of my way to ensure that your proposal is considered with fairness by > those > interested in voting. I will continue to do so. But let me state that > you > do yourself no favors with your constant put downs, sarcasm, disrespect, > and ill will towards just about anyone you encounter on the Internet. > It is unbecoming and a dertiment to yourself and your emotional wellbeing. > Bar none, I know of noone who respects you and that weight is entirely on > your shoulders. Wake up man! For your own good. > > YOU ARE NOT BEING FAIR, IMHO, IN THIS MATTER. YOU HAVE FAILED TO BE > FAIR MANY OTHER TIMES. OTHERS HAVE THOUGHT SO TOO. YOUR CHARACTER > ASSASSINATION DOES NOT HIDE THE FACT THAT YOU PERMIT OTHERS TO POST > TO SOC.RELIGION.BAHAI WHEN ITS SUITS YOUR PURPOSES. TO MALIGH MY > POSITION AS MERELY "PUT DOWNS, SARCASM, DISRESPECT, AND ILL WILL" > FAILS TO DO JUSTICE TO MY IDEAS, OPINIONS, REQUEST FOR AN UNMODERATED, > UNCENSORED FORUM OF DISCUSSION ON THE INTERNET. KIND OF YOU TO > CARE ABOUT MY EMOTIONALLY WELL-BEING, BUT I DON'T BELIEVE YOU'RE > SINCERE, GIVEN RELENTLESS CENSORINGS OF MYSELF AND OTHERS. IF YOU > HAVEN'T NOTICE THERE ARE OTHER PEOPLE WHOSE RESPECT FOR YOU, THE > MODERATORS, AND SOC.RELIGION.BAHAI HAS SUFFERED MORE THAN ONE BLOW, > LONG BEFORE I BECAME WEARY OF YOUR "MODERATION," ORWELLIAN, REALLY. > > Your Baha'i brother, > > I FIND YOUR SUPPRESSION OF MY DISCUSSION OF IDEAS AND NOW TURNING > CLEARLY TO CHARACTER ASSASSINATION UNSEEMLY. > > Dick Detweiler > co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai > > > From news@news2.acs.oakland.edu Sat Feb 15 07:58:59 1997 > > Received: from bcca.org (root@bounty.bcca.org [208.133.44.40]) > > by primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA20907 > > for ; Sat, 15 Feb 1997 07:58:55 -0700 (MST) > > Received: from relay3.UU.NET by bcca.org with smtp > > (Smail3.1.29.1 #3) id m0vvlZe-0008haC; Sat, 15 Feb 97 09:58 EST > > Received: from news2.acs.oakland.edu by relay3.UU.NET with ESMTP > > (peer crosschecked as: news2.acs.oakland.edu [141.210.10.152]) > > id QQcczz04616; Sat, 15 Feb 1997 09:58:45 -0500 (EST) > > Received: (from news@localhost) by news2.acs.oakland.edu (8.8.5/8.7.4) > id JAA02409; Sat, 15 Feb 1997 09:58:41 -0500 > > To: soc-religion-bahai@uunet.uu.net > > Path: ppp-pm02-dy-22.ouhub.moa.net > > From: FG <@moa.net> > > Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai > > Subject: Response #2: Dr. Steve Burgess > > Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 10:00:21 -0500 > > Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A. > > Lines: 43 > > Message-ID: <3305CF85.5896@moa.net> > > References: <19970214064401.BAA02439@ladder01.news.aol.com> > <5e1u8h$k5c@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> <5e23h6$t1l@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> > > Reply-To: @moa.net > > NNTP-Posting-Host: zeus.moa.net > > Mime-Version: 1.0 > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) > > To: Dr Steve Burgess , srb-mods@bcca.org > > Content-Length: 2071 > > > > Dr Steve Burgess wrote: > > > > > > Rick Shaut wrote (inpart quoting a letter from the Universal House of > > > Justice about the Talisman affair): > > > > > > >"Through such activities, and the mutual support that they give to > one > > > another, these friends have increasingly assumed the appearance of a > > > dissident group of Baha'is who are attempting to arouse widespread > > > dissatisfaction in the community and thereby to bring about changes in > > > the structure and principles of Baha'i administration, making it > accord more > > > closely with their personal notions. Such an activity is closely > analogous > > > to the pursuit of a partisan political program, an activity which is > > > accepted and even admired in most societies, but is entirely > antithetical > > > to the spirit of the Baha'i Faith. It promotes an atmosphere of > > > contention, and Baha'u'llah has expressly stated: "Conflict and > contention > > > are categorically forbidden in His Book."' > > > > > > >I can only state that this letter describes, quite accurately, the > kinds of activities I saw when Talisman I was still in operation. > > > > > > Fred Glaysher wrote (in response to RobbbRobbb@aol.com's assertion > that > > > moderation of soc.religion.bahai constituted censorship and that he > was > > > thus supporting the notion of tal.religion.bahai. > > > > > > > I appreciate your honest contribution. You're a rare Bahai.... > > > > > > > I found the juxtaposition illustrative! > > > > > > Regards > > > Steve > > > > On further reflection, this juxtaposition that you seem to delight in > > appears to me reminiscent of the red-baiting tactics of the Cold War > > world. Once that was done the individual was essentially blacklisted > > without any hearing or trial. Is that what you're hoping for? If so, > > why? Your earlier posts, in retrospect, are curious too. While you > > picked up the Subject header for talk.religion.bahai, your discussion > > ranged over other topics. Why? Please be frank and state your true > > opinions instead of insinuations and attempts, apparently, at black > > balling me by intimating associations I've never had.... > > > > ON SECOND READING, I CONTINUE TO BELIEVE MR. DETWEILER'S ALLEGATIONS > AND SUPPRESSION OF THIS RESPONSE TO DR. STEVE BURGESS IS UNJUSTIFIABLE > CENSORSHIP. I TAKE IT AS CLEAR EVIDENCE OF THE URGENT NEED TO VOTE > YES ON THE PROPOSAL FOR A FREE, OPEN, UNCENSORED, UNMANIPULATED > NEWSGROUP ON THE BAHAI FAITH--FOR ALL PEOPLE ON THE INTERNET, BAHAIS > AND NON-BAHAIS. > > > -- > > Frederick Glaysher > > Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > > > > FREDERICK GLAYSHER > ROCHESTER HILLS, MICHIGAN USA > > -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- > https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet > > ===================================================================== ====== > > WHAT TO DO IF YOU DID NOT REQUEST THIS POSTING: > ---------------------------------------------- > [This article has NOT yet been posted to Usenet. The reason we send this > email is to authenticate the author of articles we post.] > > If you did not request this article be posted to Usenet via the Deja News > service, that could mean someone using our service forged your address and > attempted to make this article appear as if you had posted it. The person > who did this used the IP address we log in the X-Originating-IP-Addr: > header field of the posting. This person may be able to be traced if you > contact the system administrator at their site. > > If you would like us to try to find out if someone forged your address, > please write to postnews@dejanews.com, include a statement like "I didn't > write this, please find out who did", and include this entire message. We > will try to help you as much as we can, but we are not a legal body and > other system administrators are not always cooperative, so we cannot > promise any results. We are sorry for any inconvenience. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Sun Feb 16 11:29:40 1997 BCC: @MOA.net Message-ID: <330735F4.667F@moa.net> Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 11:29:40 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dopost@grunt.dejanews.com Subject: please post References: <199702161314.HAA11554@grunt.dejanews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 12292 dopost@grunt.dejanews.com wrote: > > [A reply is required to post your article. (If you did not request this, > please do not reply to this email, instead read the instructions at the > bottom of this note, and send any questions to postnews@dejanews.com).] > > You have requested that the following article be posted to Usenet via the > Posting Service at Deja News. Your article is currently sitting in our > spool waiting for you to authorize it by following the following > instructions: > > TO POST YOUR ARTICLE PLEASE READ AND FOLLOW THESE INSTRUCTIONS: > --------------------------------------------------------------- > - You must reply to this email, including the ENTIRE text of this email in > the reply. (It's okay if your email program inserts characters in the left > hand column, e.g. '>', or whatever). The reply MUST be sent to: > dopost@postnews.dejanews.com > - You must change the Subject: header of your reply to contain the > words: "PLEASE POST" (capitalization doesn't matter). (Note: this is the > Subject header of the message you send to us, not the subject header of the > article you wish to have posted). > > [The following string must not be changed/modified/wrapped/truncated.] > TRANSID:41df20145db5241133c00e7828739ce07807b0214077 > ===================================================================== ====== > From: FG <@moa.net> > Subject: S.R.Bahai Censored 2-16-87: Dr. Steve Burgess > Newsgroups: news.groups > Message-Id: <856098780.11532@dejanews.com> > Reply-To: Frederick Glaysher <@moa.net> > Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service > To: srb-mods@bcca.org > X-Article-Creation-Date: Sun Feb 16 13:13:03 1997 GMT > X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.68 (ppp-pm02-dy-4.ouhub.moa.net) > X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) > > PLEASE READ THIS AND DECIDE FOR YOURSELF. FREDERICK GLAYSHER > > Subject: > Re: Response #2: Dr. Steve Burgess > Date: > Sat, 15 Feb 1997 09:27:12 -0700 (MST) > From: > "Richard C. Detweiler" > To: > @moa.net > CC: > srb-mods@bcca.org > > > Fred, > > It is becoming obvious that you are only looking to spread rancor and > discord. It is time to stop it. Your points have gotten across in > your many other posts which we have dutifully put on the newsgroup. > There is no need to continue stirring up strife by always questioning > the motives of every individual that dare think differently than yourself. > > I HAVE TO USE CAPS TO DISTINGUISH MY RESPONSE FROM YOURS. PLEASE DO > NOT MISINTERPRET THEM AS THOUGH I WERE SHOUTING (I'M TOLD THAT'S > CONSIDERED A CONVENTION NOW BY SOME). I AM NOT LOOKING TO SPREAD > "RANCOR AND DISCORD." YOUR REFUSAL TO POST THIS MESSAGE IS AN UNFAIR > USE OF YOUR POSITION AS A MODERATOR. DR. STEVE BURGESS INTIMATED > HIGHLY DISAGREEABLE THINGS IN REGARD TO MY MOTIVES. HE HIT CLEARLY > BELOW THE BELT HERE. HIS TACTIC IS TANTAMOUNT IN A BAHAI CONTEXT > TO SOMEONE SCREAMING FIRE IN A THEATER.... YOUR SHIELDING HIM OF > MY CALLING HIM TO ACCOUNT ON IT SEEMS TO ME TO BE TAKING SIDES AND > PERMITTING HIM AN ADVANTAGE. HIS UNSEEMLY ALLEGATION APPEAR ON > SOC.RELIGION.BAHAI, WHILE YOU ARE SUPPRESSING MY RESPONSE AND > DENYING ME THE REASONABLE RIGHT OF SELF-DEFENSE. > > If you would like to engage Dr. Burgess in exploring why he feels the > way he does, you may do so in a respectful manner. But your childish > insistence on being heard at all costs and no matter what your affect > is on others is going to stop being propogated to soc.religion.bahai no > matter what the status of the RFD. You may discuss the RFD with others > but we will insist on a mature discourse from you in the future. > > THERE IS NOTHING DISRESPECTFUL ABOUT MY RESPONSE BELOW. I SUGGEST > THE DISRESPECT IS ON HIS PART. HE CLEARLY INTIMATES UNSEEMLY AND > REPREHENSIBLE MOTIVES ON MY PART WITHOUT HAVING THE COURAGE AND > FORTHRIGHTNESS TO COME OUT AND SAY WHAT HE TRULY, APPARENTLY, THINKS. > YOUR DERISIVE CHARACTERIZATION OF MY RIGHT TO BE HEARD AS "CHILDISH" > WOEFULLY MISSES THE POINT AND REVEALS YOUR LACK OF RESPECT FOR > FAIRPLAY. YOUR DERIDING MY OPINIONS AS NOT CONSTITUTING "MATURE > DISCOURSE" HAS THE SAME EFFECT. APPARENTLY YOU THINK HIS INTIMATIONS > WERE "MATURE DISCOURSE." > > Once again, feel free to send this to news.groups. It will have no > bearing > on how things are moderated on this newsgroup. I for one, have gone out > of my way to ensure that your proposal is considered with fairness by > those > interested in voting. I will continue to do so. But let me state that > you > do yourself no favors with your constant put downs, sarcasm, disrespect, > and ill will towards just about anyone you encounter on the Internet. > It is unbecoming and a dertiment to yourself and your emotional wellbeing. > Bar none, I know of noone who respects you and that weight is entirely on > your shoulders. Wake up man! For your own good. > > YOU ARE NOT BEING FAIR, IMHO, IN THIS MATTER. YOU HAVE FAILED TO BE > FAIR MANY OTHER TIMES. OTHERS HAVE THOUGHT SO TOO. YOUR CHARACTER > ASSASSINATION DOES NOT HIDE THE FACT THAT YOU PERMIT OTHERS TO POST > TO SOC.RELIGION.BAHAI WHEN ITS SUITS YOUR PURPOSES. TO MALIGH MY > POSITION AS MERELY "PUT DOWNS, SARCASM, DISRESPECT, AND ILL WILL" > FAILS TO DO JUSTICE TO MY IDEAS, OPINIONS, REQUEST FOR AN UNMODERATED, > UNCENSORED FORUM OF DISCUSSION ON THE INTERNET. KIND OF YOU TO > CARE ABOUT MY EMOTIONALLY WELL-BEING, BUT I DON'T BELIEVE YOU'RE > SINCERE, GIVEN RELENTLESS CENSORINGS OF MYSELF AND OTHERS. IF YOU > HAVEN'T NOTICE THERE ARE OTHER PEOPLE WHOSE RESPECT FOR YOU, THE > MODERATORS, AND SOC.RELIGION.BAHAI HAS SUFFERED MORE THAN ONE BLOW, > LONG BEFORE I BECAME WEARY OF YOUR "MODERATION," ORWELLIAN, REALLY. > > Your Baha'i brother, > > I FIND YOUR SUPPRESSION OF MY DISCUSSION OF IDEAS AND NOW TURNING > CLEARLY TO CHARACTER ASSASSINATION UNSEEMLY. > > Dick Detweiler > co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai > > > From news@news2.acs.oakland.edu Sat Feb 15 07:58:59 1997 > > Received: from bcca.org (root@bounty.bcca.org [208.133.44.40]) > > by primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA20907 > > for ; Sat, 15 Feb 1997 07:58:55 -0700 (MST) > > Received: from relay3.UU.NET by bcca.org with smtp > > (Smail3.1.29.1 #3) id m0vvlZe-0008haC; Sat, 15 Feb 97 09:58 EST > > Received: from news2.acs.oakland.edu by relay3.UU.NET with ESMTP > > (peer crosschecked as: news2.acs.oakland.edu [141.210.10.152]) > > id QQcczz04616; Sat, 15 Feb 1997 09:58:45 -0500 (EST) > > Received: (from news@localhost) by news2.acs.oakland.edu (8.8.5/8.7.4) > id JAA02409; Sat, 15 Feb 1997 09:58:41 -0500 > > To: soc-religion-bahai@uunet.uu.net > > Path: ppp-pm02-dy-22.ouhub.moa.net > > From: FG <@moa.net> > > Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai > > Subject: Response #2: Dr. Steve Burgess > > Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 10:00:21 -0500 > > Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A. > > Lines: 43 > > Message-ID: <3305CF85.5896@moa.net> > > References: <19970214064401.BAA02439@ladder01.news.aol.com> > <5e1u8h$k5c@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> <5e23h6$t1l@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> > > Reply-To: @moa.net > > NNTP-Posting-Host: zeus.moa.net > > Mime-Version: 1.0 > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) > > To: Dr Steve Burgess , srb-mods@bcca.org > > Content-Length: 2071 > > > > Dr Steve Burgess wrote: > > > > > > Rick Shaut wrote (inpart quoting a letter from the Universal House of > > > Justice about the Talisman affair): > > > > > > >"Through such activities, and the mutual support that they give to > one > > > another, these friends have increasingly assumed the appearance of a > > > dissident group of Baha'is who are attempting to arouse widespread > > > dissatisfaction in the community and thereby to bring about changes in > > > the structure and principles of Baha'i administration, making it > accord more > > > closely with their personal notions. Such an activity is closely > analogous > > > to the pursuit of a partisan political program, an activity which is > > > accepted and even admired in most societies, but is entirely > antithetical > > > to the spirit of the Baha'i Faith. It promotes an atmosphere of > > > contention, and Baha'u'llah has expressly stated: "Conflict and > contention > > > are categorically forbidden in His Book."' > > > > > > >I can only state that this letter describes, quite accurately, the > kinds of activities I saw when Talisman I was still in operation. > > > > > > Fred Glaysher wrote (in response to RobbbRobbb@aol.com's assertion > that > > > moderation of soc.religion.bahai constituted censorship and that he > was > > > thus supporting the notion of tal.religion.bahai. > > > > > > > I appreciate your honest contribution. You're a rare Bahai.... > > > > > > > I found the juxtaposition illustrative! > > > > > > Regards > > > Steve > > > > On further reflection, this juxtaposition that you seem to delight in > > appears to me reminiscent of the red-baiting tactics of the Cold War > > world. Once that was done the individual was essentially blacklisted > > without any hearing or trial. Is that what you're hoping for? If so, > > why? Your earlier posts, in retrospect, are curious too. While you > > picked up the Subject header for talk.religion.bahai, your discussion > > ranged over other topics. Why? Please be frank and state your true > > opinions instead of insinuations and attempts, apparently, at black > > balling me by intimating associations I've never had.... > > > > ON SECOND READING, I CONTINUE TO BELIEVE MR. DETWEILER'S ALLEGATIONS > AND SUPPRESSION OF THIS RESPONSE TO DR. STEVE BURGESS IS UNJUSTIFIABLE > CENSORSHIP. I TAKE IT AS CLEAR EVIDENCE OF THE URGENT NEED TO VOTE > YES ON THE PROPOSAL FOR A FREE, OPEN, UNCENSORED, UNMANIPULATED > NEWSGROUP ON THE BAHAI FAITH--FOR ALL PEOPLE ON THE INTERNET, BAHAIS > AND NON-BAHAIS. > > > -- > > Frederick Glaysher > > Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > > > > FREDERICK GLAYSHER > ROCHESTER HILLS, MICHIGAN USA > > -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- > https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet > > ===================================================================== ====== > > WHAT TO DO IF YOU DID NOT REQUEST THIS POSTING: > ---------------------------------------------- > [This article has NOT yet been posted to Usenet. The reason we send this > email is to authenticate the author of articles we post.] > > If you did not request this article be posted to Usenet via the Deja News > service, that could mean someone using our service forged your address and > attempted to make this article appear as if you had posted it. The person > who did this used the IP address we log in the X-Originating-IP-Addr: > header field of the posting. This person may be able to be traced if you > contact the system administrator at their site. > > If you would like us to try to find out if someone forged your address, > please write to postnews@dejanews.com, include a statement like "I didn't > write this, please find out who did", and include this entire message. We > will try to help you as much as we can, but we are not a legal body and > other system administrators are not always cooperative, so we cannot > promise any results. We are sorry for any inconvenience. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Sun Feb 16 11:30:08 1997 BCC: @MOA.net Message-ID: <33073610.4DD0@moa.net> Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 11:30:08 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dopost@grunt.dejanews.com Subject: please post References: <199702161332.HAA11881@grunt.dejanews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 6247 dopost@grunt.dejanews.com wrote: > > [A reply is required to post your article. (If you did not request this, > please do not reply to this email, instead read the instructions at the > bottom of this note, and send any questions to postnews@dejanews.com).] > > You have requested that the following article be posted to Usenet via the > Posting Service at Deja News. Your article is currently sitting in our > spool waiting for you to authorize it by following the following > instructions: > > TO POST YOUR ARTICLE PLEASE READ AND FOLLOW THESE INSTRUCTIONS: > --------------------------------------------------------------- > - You must reply to this email, including the ENTIRE text of this email in > the reply. (It's okay if your email program inserts characters in the left > hand column, e.g. '>', or whatever). The reply MUST be sent to: > dopost@postnews.dejanews.com > - You must change the Subject: header of your reply to contain the > words: "PLEASE POST" (capitalization doesn't matter). (Note: this is the > Subject header of the message you send to us, not the subject header of the > article you wish to have posted). > > [The following string must not be changed/modified/wrapped/truncated.] > TRANSID:315fa0e45de534d17b4ebe0f0572a72b56ee1bf7fced > ===================================================================== ====== > From: FG <@moa.net> > Subject: T.R.Bahai Response to B-Limber > Newsgroups: news.groups > Message-Id: <856099848.11833@dejanews.com> > Reply-To: Frederick Glaysher <@moa.net> > Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service > To: blimber@capaccess.org > X-Article-Creation-Date: Sun Feb 16 13:30:48 1997 GMT > X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.78 (ppp-pm02-dy-14.ouhub.moa.net) > X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) > > Bruce Limber wrote: > > > > > > > I DON'T BELIEVE BAHA'U'LLAH CONCEIVES OF A NEW WORLD ORDER OF > RELIGIOUS > > > > > FASCISM AND OPPRESSION . . . > > > > > > > > Is there any particular reason you're yelling? > > > > > > I don't believe I am "yelling." > > > > In standard Internet convention, use of all caps is construed as > > shouting. It's possible that you've been uaware of this, but I assure > > you that this is how posts like the above are generally understood. > > > > Sorry, news to me. > > > > > Fascism and oppression are mere loaded terminology. > > > > > > Accurate discription in regard to soc.religion.bahai. I suggest you > > > read the censored messages, of others as well as myself, on > news.groups. > > > > I have no interest whatever in doing so. IME moderation here has been > > for good and sufficient reasons, and I feel I know whereof I'm speaking, > > having been moderated here myself. > > > > Many people don't agree with you that it is often "for good and > sufficient reasons." And yet you too have experienced it? > > > > > As to what Baha'u'llah advocates, I suggest you read _Gleanings_ > CLIX. > > > > > > Anyone can quote scripture to support their position. I have tried > not > > > to do that since I believe it is an unseemly tactic. > > > > If that's your choice, fine. > > > > But you will forgive me, I trust, if I prefer His guidance to yours. > > > > I am not suggesting anyone follow my "guidance" to His. It seems > unfair to me to say that, really. Rather, I don't want to sully > the Writings by throwing them back and forth.... That to me is > too irrevrent of a use of them. That's all. > > > > Do you believe Baha'u'llah, a prisoner for so much of his life, > approved > > > of oppression? > > > > It is my understanding that He disapproved of _both_ oppression _and_ > (as > > CLIX shows) license. > > > > If you're intimating that my request for an unmoderated > newsgroup, talk.religion.bahai, constitutes license, on my or anyone's > part, I believe that's overstating the issue, especially since the > newsgroup doesn't even exist.... You equate free religious > conscience and discussion, then, with license? Odd definition. > > > To the extent that any of us can make a decision between creating > division > > and promoting unity and consensus (_not_ to be confused with > politicking), > > I hope the choice is clear. > > > > And on the assumption that we're both in the world for the same purpose, > > I think the "problem" becomes trivial. > > > > And you are adamantly certain you know my inmost soul and purpose > in this world? I'm not sure I follow you here. > > > Peace. > > -- > Frederick Glaysher > Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > > -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- > https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet > > ===================================================================== ====== > > WHAT TO DO IF YOU DID NOT REQUEST THIS POSTING: > ---------------------------------------------- > [This article has NOT yet been posted to Usenet. The reason we send this > email is to authenticate the author of articles we post.] > > If you did not request this article be posted to Usenet via the Deja News > service, that could mean someone using our service forged your address and > attempted to make this article appear as if you had posted it. The person > who did this used the IP address we log in the X-Originating-IP-Addr: > header field of the posting. This person may be able to be traced if you > contact the system administrator at their site. > > If you would like us to try to find out if someone forged your address, > please write to postnews@dejanews.com, include a statement like "I didn't > write this, please find out who did", and include this entire message. We > will try to help you as much as we can, but we are not a legal body and > other system administrators are not always cooperative, so we cannot > promise any results. We are sorry for any inconvenience. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Sun Feb 16 11:35:06 1997 Received: from default (204.38.255.186) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Sun, 16 Feb 1997 11:22:40 -0500 Message-ID: <33073610.4DD0@moa.net> Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 11:30:08 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dopost@grunt.dejanews.com Subject: please post References: <199702161332.HAA11881@grunt.dejanews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 6245 dopost@grunt.dejanews.com wrote: > > [A reply is required to post your article. (If you did not request this, > please do not reply to this email, instead read the instructions at the > bottom of this note, and send any questions to postnews@dejanews.com).] > > You have requested that the following article be posted to Usenet via the > Posting Service at Deja News. Your article is currently sitting in our > spool waiting for you to authorize it by following the following > instructions: > > TO POST YOUR ARTICLE PLEASE READ AND FOLLOW THESE INSTRUCTIONS: > --------------------------------------------------------------- > - You must reply to this email, including the ENTIRE text of this email in > the reply. (It's okay if your email program inserts characters in the left > hand column, e.g. '>', or whatever). The reply MUST be sent to: > dopost@postnews.dejanews.com > - You must change the Subject: header of your reply to contain the > words: "PLEASE POST" (capitalization doesn't matter). (Note: this is the > Subject header of the message you send to us, not the subject header of the > article you wish to have posted). > > [The following string must not be changed/modified/wrapped/truncated.] > TRANSID:315fa0e45de534d17b4ebe0f0572a72b56ee1bf7fced > ===================================================================== ====== > From: FG <@moa.net> > Subject: T.R.Bahai Response to B-Limber > Newsgroups: news.groups > Message-Id: <856099848.11833@dejanews.com> > Reply-To: Frederick Glaysher <@moa.net> > Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service > To: blimber@capaccess.org > X-Article-Creation-Date: Sun Feb 16 13:30:48 1997 GMT > X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.78 (ppp-pm02-dy-14.ouhub.moa.net) > X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) > > Bruce Limber wrote: > > > > > > > I DON'T BELIEVE BAHA'U'LLAH CONCEIVES OF A NEW WORLD ORDER OF > RELIGIOUS > > > > > FASCISM AND OPPRESSION . . . > > > > > > > > Is there any particular reason you're yelling? > > > > > > I don't believe I am "yelling." > > > > In standard Internet convention, use of all caps is construed as > > shouting. It's possible that you've been uaware of this, but I assure > > you that this is how posts like the above are generally understood. > > > > Sorry, news to me. > > > > > Fascism and oppression are mere loaded terminology. > > > > > > Accurate discription in regard to soc.religion.bahai. I suggest you > > > read the censored messages, of others as well as myself, on > news.groups. > > > > I have no interest whatever in doing so. IME moderation here has been > > for good and sufficient reasons, and I feel I know whereof I'm speaking, > > having been moderated here myself. > > > > Many people don't agree with you that it is often "for good and > sufficient reasons." And yet you too have experienced it? > > > > > As to what Baha'u'llah advocates, I suggest you read _Gleanings_ > CLIX. > > > > > > Anyone can quote scripture to support their position. I have tried > not > > > to do that since I believe it is an unseemly tactic. > > > > If that's your choice, fine. > > > > But you will forgive me, I trust, if I prefer His guidance to yours. > > > > I am not suggesting anyone follow my "guidance" to His. It seems > unfair to me to say that, really. Rather, I don't want to sully > the Writings by throwing them back and forth.... That to me is > too irrevrent of a use of them. That's all. > > > > Do you believe Baha'u'llah, a prisoner for so much of his life, > approved > > > of oppression? > > > > It is my understanding that He disapproved of _both_ oppression _and_ > (as > > CLIX shows) license. > > > > If you're intimating that my request for an unmoderated > newsgroup, talk.religion.bahai, constitutes license, on my or anyone's > part, I believe that's overstating the issue, especially since the > newsgroup doesn't even exist.... You equate free religious > conscience and discussion, then, with license? Odd definition. > > > To the extent that any of us can make a decision between creating > division > > and promoting unity and consensus (_not_ to be confused with > politicking), > > I hope the choice is clear. > > > > And on the assumption that we're both in the world for the same purpose, > > I think the "problem" becomes trivial. > > > > And you are adamantly certain you know my inmost soul and purpose > in this world? I'm not sure I follow you here. > > > Peace. > > -- > Frederick Glaysher > Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > > -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- > https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet > > ===================================================================== ====== > > WHAT TO DO IF YOU DID NOT REQUEST THIS POSTING: > ---------------------------------------------- > [This article has NOT yet been posted to Usenet. The reason we send this > email is to authenticate the author of articles we post.] > > If you did not request this article be posted to Usenet via the Deja News > service, that could mean someone using our service forged your address and > attempted to make this article appear as if you had posted it. The person > who did this used the IP address we log in the X-Originating-IP-Addr: > header field of the posting. This person may be able to be traced if you > contact the system administrator at their site. > > If you would like us to try to find out if someone forged your address, > please write to postnews@dejanews.com, include a statement like "I didn't > write this, please find out who did", and include this entire message. We > will try to help you as much as we can, but we are not a legal body and > other system administrators are not always cooperative, so we cannot > promise any results. We are sorry for any inconvenience. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Sun Feb 16 11:35:11 1997 Received: from default (204.38.255.186) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Sun, 16 Feb 1997 11:23:03 -0500 Message-ID: <33073626.7E3A@moa.net> Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 11:30:30 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dopost@grunt.dejanews.com Subject: please post References: <199702161345.HAA12242@grunt.dejanews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 5915 dopost@grunt.dejanews.com wrote: > > [A reply is required to post your article. (If you did not request this, > please do not reply to this email, instead read the instructions at the > bottom of this note, and send any questions to postnews@dejanews.com).] > > You have requested that the following article be posted to Usenet via the > Posting Service at Deja News. Your article is currently sitting in our > spool waiting for you to authorize it by following the following > instructions: > > TO POST YOUR ARTICLE PLEASE READ AND FOLLOW THESE INSTRUCTIONS: > --------------------------------------------------------------- > - You must reply to this email, including the ENTIRE text of this email in > the reply. (It's okay if your email program inserts characters in the left > hand column, e.g. '>', or whatever). The reply MUST be sent to: > dopost@postnews.dejanews.com > - You must change the Subject: header of your reply to contain the > words: "PLEASE POST" (capitalization doesn't matter). (Note: this is the > Subject header of the message you send to us, not the subject header of the > article you wish to have posted). > > [The following string must not be changed/modified/wrapped/truncated.] > TRANSID:517fa0f41d251471c6cad2679cfd431af4045850e5f8 > ===================================================================== ====== > From: FG <@moa.net> > Subject: S.r.bahai: volunteer moderators > Newsgroups: news.groups > Message-Id: <856100623.12179@dejanews.com> > Reply-To: Frederick Glaysher <@moa.net> > Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service > To: keillan@quest.cc.purdue.edu > X-Article-Creation-Date: Sun Feb 16 13:43:46 1997 GMT > X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.81 (ppp-pm02-dy-17.ouhub.moa.net) > X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) > > [Please post to news.groups all discussion.] > > Subject: > Re: Concerning talk.religion.bahai Proposal (or) The '97 Vote > (or) The > Great Debate > Date: > Sun, 16 Feb 1997 06:27:23 -0500 (EST) > From: > "Kelly G. Willis" > Organization: > Purdue University, Department of Chemistry > To: > @moa.net > > > Using technology of the Second Millenium, thou didst unto me write: > > *> I have not asked you or anyone to automatically vote yes. I've always > *> suggested all along to consider it in your own good conscience. If > *> you're > *> only reading soc.religion.bahai with an email echo, you need to realize > *> you're getting one side of the discussion. The rest is on news.groups > *> along > *> with examples, from people other than myself, of censored messages. > *> > *> I've address all the issue you raise above in my rationale and > *> elsewhere. > *> I don't want to bore again if you've read them. > > I have been able to follow much of the discussion on both s.r.b. and on > news.groups, and my current position is reflective of that. > > *> If you do think there's a need, have the courage to say so on srb and > *> elsewhere than just email. > > I somehow am not sure that a "need" for an unmoderated newsgroup exists. > Indeed, I actually don't see a "need" for the entire USENET :-). But > within the context that you are stipulating, whether or not a need > exists is still open for debate, at least as I am concerned. At least > I'm still pondering over it. > > I RESPECT THAT. > > By the way, if the moderators are unelected and unappointed, then how > did they come into their current position? Did they become moderators > _ex nihilo_, or were they always moderators from the beginning of time? > :-) > > THEY VOLUNTEERED FOR IT. THINK ABOUT IT. ACCORDING TO MUCH THOUGHT > IN BAHAI CIRCLES, THOSE WHO VOLUNTEER THEMSELVES FOR POSTIONS OF > POWER ARE OFTEN THE ONES WHO SHOULD NOT HAVE IT.... > > INCIDENTALLY, I LIKE YOUR SENSE OF HUMOUR IN YOUR SUBJECT HEADER? > WE ALL ARE GETTING A LITTLE TOO SERIOUS AND UPTIGHT HERE NOW > AT MOMENTS! > > -- > ----- \\\\\\\\\ Only from the mind of Kelly G. Willis // Purdue > University > ) ( | \\ Email: keillan@purdue.edu // Dept. of C > > FREDERICK GLAYSHER > ROCHESTER HILLS, MICHIGAN USA > > -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- > https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet > > ===================================================================== ====== > > WHAT TO DO IF YOU DID NOT REQUEST THIS POSTING: > ---------------------------------------------- > [This article has NOT yet been posted to Usenet. The reason we send this > email is to authenticate the author of articles we post.] > > If you did not request this article be posted to Usenet via the Deja News > service, that could mean someone using our service forged your address and > attempted to make this article appear as if you had posted it. The person > who did this used the IP address we log in the X-Originating-IP-Addr: > header field of the posting. This person may be able to be traced if you > contact the system administrator at their site. > > If you would like us to try to find out if someone forged your address, > please write to postnews@dejanews.com, include a statement like "I didn't > write this, please find out who did", and include this entire message. We > will try to help you as much as we can, but we are not a legal body and > other system administrators are not always cooperative, so we cannot > promise any results. We are sorry for any inconvenience. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Sun Feb 16 11:30:30 1997 BCC: @MOA.net Message-ID: <33073626.7E3A@moa.net> Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 11:30:30 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dopost@grunt.dejanews.com Subject: please post References: <199702161345.HAA12242@grunt.dejanews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 5917 dopost@grunt.dejanews.com wrote: > > [A reply is required to post your article. (If you did not request this, > please do not reply to this email, instead read the instructions at the > bottom of this note, and send any questions to postnews@dejanews.com).] > > You have requested that the following article be posted to Usenet via the > Posting Service at Deja News. Your article is currently sitting in our > spool waiting for you to authorize it by following the following > instructions: > > TO POST YOUR ARTICLE PLEASE READ AND FOLLOW THESE INSTRUCTIONS: > --------------------------------------------------------------- > - You must reply to this email, including the ENTIRE text of this email in > the reply. (It's okay if your email program inserts characters in the left > hand column, e.g. '>', or whatever). The reply MUST be sent to: > dopost@postnews.dejanews.com > - You must change the Subject: header of your reply to contain the > words: "PLEASE POST" (capitalization doesn't matter). (Note: this is the > Subject header of the message you send to us, not the subject header of the > article you wish to have posted). > > [The following string must not be changed/modified/wrapped/truncated.] > TRANSID:517fa0f41d251471c6cad2679cfd431af4045850e5f8 > ===================================================================== ====== > From: FG <@moa.net> > Subject: S.r.bahai: volunteer moderators > Newsgroups: news.groups > Message-Id: <856100623.12179@dejanews.com> > Reply-To: Frederick Glaysher <@moa.net> > Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service > To: keillan@quest.cc.purdue.edu > X-Article-Creation-Date: Sun Feb 16 13:43:46 1997 GMT > X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.81 (ppp-pm02-dy-17.ouhub.moa.net) > X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) > > [Please post to news.groups all discussion.] > > Subject: > Re: Concerning talk.religion.bahai Proposal (or) The '97 Vote > (or) The > Great Debate > Date: > Sun, 16 Feb 1997 06:27:23 -0500 (EST) > From: > "Kelly G. Willis" > Organization: > Purdue University, Department of Chemistry > To: > @moa.net > > > Using technology of the Second Millenium, thou didst unto me write: > > *> I have not asked you or anyone to automatically vote yes. I've always > *> suggested all along to consider it in your own good conscience. If > *> you're > *> only reading soc.religion.bahai with an email echo, you need to realize > *> you're getting one side of the discussion. The rest is on news.groups > *> along > *> with examples, from people other than myself, of censored messages. > *> > *> I've address all the issue you raise above in my rationale and > *> elsewhere. > *> I don't want to bore again if you've read them. > > I have been able to follow much of the discussion on both s.r.b. and on > news.groups, and my current position is reflective of that. > > *> If you do think there's a need, have the courage to say so on srb and > *> elsewhere than just email. > > I somehow am not sure that a "need" for an unmoderated newsgroup exists. > Indeed, I actually don't see a "need" for the entire USENET :-). But > within the context that you are stipulating, whether or not a need > exists is still open for debate, at least as I am concerned. At least > I'm still pondering over it. > > I RESPECT THAT. > > By the way, if the moderators are unelected and unappointed, then how > did they come into their current position? Did they become moderators > _ex nihilo_, or were they always moderators from the beginning of time? > :-) > > THEY VOLUNTEERED FOR IT. THINK ABOUT IT. ACCORDING TO MUCH THOUGHT > IN BAHAI CIRCLES, THOSE WHO VOLUNTEER THEMSELVES FOR POSTIONS OF > POWER ARE OFTEN THE ONES WHO SHOULD NOT HAVE IT.... > > INCIDENTALLY, I LIKE YOUR SENSE OF HUMOUR IN YOUR SUBJECT HEADER? > WE ALL ARE GETTING A LITTLE TOO SERIOUS AND UPTIGHT HERE NOW > AT MOMENTS! > > -- > ----- \\\\\\\\\ Only from the mind of Kelly G. Willis // Purdue > University > ) ( | \\ Email: keillan@purdue.edu // Dept. of C > > FREDERICK GLAYSHER > ROCHESTER HILLS, MICHIGAN USA > > -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- > https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet > > ===================================================================== ====== > > WHAT TO DO IF YOU DID NOT REQUEST THIS POSTING: > ---------------------------------------------- > [This article has NOT yet been posted to Usenet. The reason we send this > email is to authenticate the author of articles we post.] > > If you did not request this article be posted to Usenet via the Deja News > service, that could mean someone using our service forged your address and > attempted to make this article appear as if you had posted it. The person > who did this used the IP address we log in the X-Originating-IP-Addr: > header field of the posting. This person may be able to be traced if you > contact the system administrator at their site. > > If you would like us to try to find out if someone forged your address, > please write to postnews@dejanews.com, include a statement like "I didn't > write this, please find out who did", and include this entire message. We > will try to help you as much as we can, but we are not a legal body and > other system administrators are not always cooperative, so we cannot > promise any results. We are sorry for any inconvenience. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Sun Feb 16 11:30:51 1997 BCC: @MOA.net Message-ID: <3307363B.31D5@moa.net> Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 11:30:51 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dopost@grunt.dejanews.com Subject: please post References: <199702161404.IAA12694@grunt.dejanews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 7703 dopost@grunt.dejanews.com wrote: > > [A reply is required to post your article. (If you did not request this, > please do not reply to this email, instead read the instructions at the > bottom of this note, and send any questions to postnews@dejanews.com).] > > You have requested that the following article be posted to Usenet via the > Posting Service at Deja News. Your article is currently sitting in our > spool waiting for you to authorize it by following the following > instructions: > > TO POST YOUR ARTICLE PLEASE READ AND FOLLOW THESE INSTRUCTIONS: > --------------------------------------------------------------- > - You must reply to this email, including the ENTIRE text of this email in > the reply. (It's okay if your email program inserts characters in the left > hand column, e.g. '>', or whatever). The reply MUST be sent to: > dopost@postnews.dejanews.com > - You must change the Subject: header of your reply to contain the > words: "PLEASE POST" (capitalization doesn't matter). (Note: this is the > Subject header of the message you send to us, not the subject header of the > article you wish to have posted). > > [The following string must not be changed/modified/wrapped/truncated.] > TRANSID:315f70e42de564c10de2170b3bebd88fb53ebdd85511 > ===================================================================== ====== > From: FG <@moa.net> > Subject: t.r.bahai Response: "bossy bahais" > Newsgroups: news.groups > Message-Id: <856101831.12678@dejanews.com> > Reply-To: Frederick Glaysher <@moa.net> > Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service > To: Lisa Armstrong > X-Article-Creation-Date: Sun Feb 16 14:03:51 1997 GMT > X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.34 (ppp-pm01-dy-2.ouhub.moa.net) > X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) > > PLEASE POST ALL DISCUSSION TO NEWS.GROUPS > > Subject: > Re: I agree about the "bossy" Baha'is0 > Date: > Fri, 14 Feb 1997 11:59:21 -0600 > From: > Lisa Armstrong > To: > @moa.net > > > Dear Fred, (or Pam) > At 08:13 AM 2/15/97 -0700, you wrote: > >@moa.net wrote: > > > > I've been a Bahai for over twenty years, and I believe many > >> individuals do indeed "seek to control" others' thoughts... > > I tend to agree with you. I have also been a Baha'i for more than 20 > years. > It will be 24 years this summer, to be exact. Most of the problem, as I > see > it , as far as Baha'is being "bossy" or whatever (trying to control others > thoughts) centers a lack of either personal maturity and/or a lack of > deepening. > > AND YOU KNOW, THIS IS ALL I'M SAYING, LISA.... AND LOOK AT THE > REACTION.... > > Of course, there are also those who think that they know "everything" > there > is to know about the Cause. I compare this type of Baha'i (often > obnoxious) > to those who could perhaps submit and be given a "permit" to say that they > know almost everything (Hands of the Cause, Counsellors, Universal House > of > Justice members, occasionally some beloved, spiritual souls who have no > "titles") > > We do, indeed, I think, have a unique perspective having been Baha'is as > long as we have. We are old enough to remember some of the "oldster" in > the > Faith (those who had met Abd'ul-Baha'- we remember when Glenford Mitchell > was still Secretary of the NSA), and we have seen the Faith in the U.S. go > through some _pretty_ strange things. However, at this juncture, at least > where I am in the U.S., the biggest test is to just "keep on keepin' on". > Sometimes I have such a struggle maintaining any sort of Baha'i identity, > as > the communities close to where I live are pretty "dead", and many of the > friends are apathetic, or lip-service what should be done, and seldom to > never do anything. > > I DO AGREE WITH YOU TOO ABOUT THE "UNIQUE PERSPECTIVE" A LONG TIME IN > THE FAITH CAN GIVE ONE, AT LEAST LONGER THAN LET'S SAY THE STARRY- > EYED PERIOD OF WHATEVER LENGTH.... TIME ALONE DOESN'T MEAN EVERYTHING, > OF COURSE.... > > Everyone seems "too busy" to want to teach the Faith, work with the youth, > teach children's classes, have prayer meetings, sing in the choir, > etc.,etc. > > This is perhaps the saddest that I have ever seen it here. I pray that it > will change someday, but I have lived in this area for the entire time I > have been a Baha'i. > > WHAT AREA IS THAT? OF COURSE, I'VE SEEN IT IN SEVERAL BAHAI COMMUNITIES > AROUND THE US AND ABROAD.... > > My main goal is to move to the southwestern part of the U.S., where I am > very drawn,spiritually. What about you and your area of the states? What > goes on? > > SAME THING EVERYWHERE, YOU SEE.... > > What is behind your feeling that Baha'is seem to want to control your > thoughts? > (Just curious) > > TWENTY YEARS OF EXPERIENCING IT.... AND THE SINCERE DESIRE TO SEE > THE FAITH REACH THE MASSESS.... I DON'T BELIEVE IT EVER WILL IF > INDIVIDUALS CONTINUE THROTTLING ALL GENUINELY HELD RELIGIOUS > CONSCIENCE AND BELIEF. BAHA'U'LLAH UNDERSTOOD THE ANTINOMIES IN > THE HUMAN SOUL.... THAT THEY'RE GROUNDED IN THE FREE WILL GOD HAS > GIVEN THE HUMAN CREATURE... BY AND LARGE, I DON'T BELIEVE BAHAIS > DO.... > > Lisa Armstrong** > lisarm@cei.net > > // "...God hath sent down His Messengers to succeed to Moses // > // and Jesus, and He will continue to do so till 'the end // > // that hath no end'; so that His grace may, from the heaven// > // of Divine bounty, be continually vouchsafed to mankind." // > // - Baha'u'llah // > > (**Ask me about this quote from the Baha'i Faith**) > > I KNOW IT WOULD TAKE REAL COURAGE IN THIS ENVIRONMENT, BUT IF > YOU FEEL SO MOVED, I'D APPRECIATE YOUR SHARING YOUR THOUGHTS > WITH OTHERS, AND BAHAIS, ON SOC.RELIGION.BAHAI AND NEWS.GROUPS > > FREDERICK GLAYSHER > ROCHESTER HILLS, MICHIGAN USA > > -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- > https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet > > ===================================================================== ====== > > WHAT TO DO IF YOU DID NOT REQUEST THIS POSTING: > ---------------------------------------------- > [This article has NOT yet been posted to Usenet. The reason we send this > email is to authenticate the author of articles we post.] > > If you did not request this article be posted to Usenet via the Deja News > service, that could mean someone using our service forged your address and > attempted to make this article appear as if you had posted it. The person > who did this used the IP address we log in the X-Originating-IP-Addr: > header field of the posting. This person may be able to be traced if you > contact the system administrator at their site. > > If you would like us to try to find out if someone forged your address, > please write to postnews@dejanews.com, include a statement like "I didn't > write this, please find out who did", and include this entire message. We > will try to help you as much as we can, but we are not a legal body and > other system administrators are not always cooperative, so we cannot > promise any results. We are sorry for any inconvenience. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Sun Feb 16 11:35:15 1997 Received: from default (204.38.255.181) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Sun, 16 Feb 1997 11:24:28 -0500 Message-ID: <3307363B.31D5@moa.net> Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 11:31:54 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dopost@grunt.dejanews.com Subject: please post References: <199702161404.IAA12694@grunt.dejanews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 7701 dopost@grunt.dejanews.com wrote: > > [A reply is required to post your article. (If you did not request this, > please do not reply to this email, instead read the instructions at the > bottom of this note, and send any questions to postnews@dejanews.com).] > > You have requested that the following article be posted to Usenet via the > Posting Service at Deja News. Your article is currently sitting in our > spool waiting for you to authorize it by following the following > instructions: > > TO POST YOUR ARTICLE PLEASE READ AND FOLLOW THESE INSTRUCTIONS: > --------------------------------------------------------------- > - You must reply to this email, including the ENTIRE text of this email in > the reply. (It's okay if your email program inserts characters in the left > hand column, e.g. '>', or whatever). The reply MUST be sent to: > dopost@postnews.dejanews.com > - You must change the Subject: header of your reply to contain the > words: "PLEASE POST" (capitalization doesn't matter). (Note: this is the > Subject header of the message you send to us, not the subject header of the > article you wish to have posted). > > [The following string must not be changed/modified/wrapped/truncated.] > TRANSID:315f70e42de564c10de2170b3bebd88fb53ebdd85511 > ===================================================================== ====== > From: FG <@moa.net> > Subject: t.r.bahai Response: "bossy bahais" > Newsgroups: news.groups > Message-Id: <856101831.12678@dejanews.com> > Reply-To: Frederick Glaysher <@moa.net> > Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service > To: Lisa Armstrong > X-Article-Creation-Date: Sun Feb 16 14:03:51 1997 GMT > X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.34 (ppp-pm01-dy-2.ouhub.moa.net) > X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) > > PLEASE POST ALL DISCUSSION TO NEWS.GROUPS > > Subject: > Re: I agree about the "bossy" Baha'is0 > Date: > Fri, 14 Feb 1997 11:59:21 -0600 > From: > Lisa Armstrong > To: > @moa.net > > > Dear Fred, (or Pam) > At 08:13 AM 2/15/97 -0700, you wrote: > >@moa.net wrote: > > > > I've been a Bahai for over twenty years, and I believe many > >> individuals do indeed "seek to control" others' thoughts... > > I tend to agree with you. I have also been a Baha'i for more than 20 > years. > It will be 24 years this summer, to be exact. Most of the problem, as I > see > it , as far as Baha'is being "bossy" or whatever (trying to control others > thoughts) centers a lack of either personal maturity and/or a lack of > deepening. > > AND YOU KNOW, THIS IS ALL I'M SAYING, LISA.... AND LOOK AT THE > REACTION.... > > Of course, there are also those who think that they know "everything" > there > is to know about the Cause. I compare this type of Baha'i (often > obnoxious) > to those who could perhaps submit and be given a "permit" to say that they > know almost everything (Hands of the Cause, Counsellors, Universal House > of > Justice members, occasionally some beloved, spiritual souls who have no > "titles") > > We do, indeed, I think, have a unique perspective having been Baha'is as > long as we have. We are old enough to remember some of the "oldster" in > the > Faith (those who had met Abd'ul-Baha'- we remember when Glenford Mitchell > was still Secretary of the NSA), and we have seen the Faith in the U.S. go > through some _pretty_ strange things. However, at this juncture, at least > where I am in the U.S., the biggest test is to just "keep on keepin' on". > Sometimes I have such a struggle maintaining any sort of Baha'i identity, > as > the communities close to where I live are pretty "dead", and many of the > friends are apathetic, or lip-service what should be done, and seldom to > never do anything. > > I DO AGREE WITH YOU TOO ABOUT THE "UNIQUE PERSPECTIVE" A LONG TIME IN > THE FAITH CAN GIVE ONE, AT LEAST LONGER THAN LET'S SAY THE STARRY- > EYED PERIOD OF WHATEVER LENGTH.... TIME ALONE DOESN'T MEAN EVERYTHING, > OF COURSE.... > > Everyone seems "too busy" to want to teach the Faith, work with the youth, > teach children's classes, have prayer meetings, sing in the choir, > etc.,etc. > > This is perhaps the saddest that I have ever seen it here. I pray that it > will change someday, but I have lived in this area for the entire time I > have been a Baha'i. > > WHAT AREA IS THAT? OF COURSE, I'VE SEEN IT IN SEVERAL BAHAI COMMUNITIES > AROUND THE US AND ABROAD.... > > My main goal is to move to the southwestern part of the U.S., where I am > very drawn,spiritually. What about you and your area of the states? What > goes on? > > SAME THING EVERYWHERE, YOU SEE.... > > What is behind your feeling that Baha'is seem to want to control your > thoughts? > (Just curious) > > TWENTY YEARS OF EXPERIENCING IT.... AND THE SINCERE DESIRE TO SEE > THE FAITH REACH THE MASSESS.... I DON'T BELIEVE IT EVER WILL IF > INDIVIDUALS CONTINUE THROTTLING ALL GENUINELY HELD RELIGIOUS > CONSCIENCE AND BELIEF. BAHA'U'LLAH UNDERSTOOD THE ANTINOMIES IN > THE HUMAN SOUL.... THAT THEY'RE GROUNDED IN THE FREE WILL GOD HAS > GIVEN THE HUMAN CREATURE... BY AND LARGE, I DON'T BELIEVE BAHAIS > DO.... > > Lisa Armstrong** > lisarm@cei.net > > // "...God hath sent down His Messengers to succeed to Moses // > // and Jesus, and He will continue to do so till 'the end // > // that hath no end'; so that His grace may, from the heaven// > // of Divine bounty, be continually vouchsafed to mankind." // > // - Baha'u'llah // > > (**Ask me about this quote from the Baha'i Faith**) > > I KNOW IT WOULD TAKE REAL COURAGE IN THIS ENVIRONMENT, BUT IF > YOU FEEL SO MOVED, I'D APPRECIATE YOUR SHARING YOUR THOUGHTS > WITH OTHERS, AND BAHAIS, ON SOC.RELIGION.BAHAI AND NEWS.GROUPS > > FREDERICK GLAYSHER > ROCHESTER HILLS, MICHIGAN USA > > -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- > https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet > > ===================================================================== ====== > > WHAT TO DO IF YOU DID NOT REQUEST THIS POSTING: > ---------------------------------------------- > [This article has NOT yet been posted to Usenet. The reason we send this > email is to authenticate the author of articles we post.] > > If you did not request this article be posted to Usenet via the Deja News > service, that could mean someone using our service forged your address and > attempted to make this article appear as if you had posted it. The person > who did this used the IP address we log in the X-Originating-IP-Addr: > header field of the posting. This person may be able to be traced if you > contact the system administrator at their site. > > If you would like us to try to find out if someone forged your address, > please write to postnews@dejanews.com, include a statement like "I didn't > write this, please find out who did", and include this entire message. We > will try to help you as much as we can, but we are not a legal body and > other system administrators are not always cooperative, so we cannot > promise any results. We are sorry for any inconvenience. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Sun Feb 16 11:31:54 1997 BCC: @MOA.net Message-ID: <3307363B.31D5@moa.net> Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 11:31:54 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dopost@grunt.dejanews.com Subject: please post References: <199702161404.IAA12694@grunt.dejanews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 7703 dopost@grunt.dejanews.com wrote: > > [A reply is required to post your article. (If you did not request this, > please do not reply to this email, instead read the instructions at the > bottom of this note, and send any questions to postnews@dejanews.com).] > > You have requested that the following article be posted to Usenet via the > Posting Service at Deja News. Your article is currently sitting in our > spool waiting for you to authorize it by following the following > instructions: > > TO POST YOUR ARTICLE PLEASE READ AND FOLLOW THESE INSTRUCTIONS: > --------------------------------------------------------------- > - You must reply to this email, including the ENTIRE text of this email in > the reply. (It's okay if your email program inserts characters in the left > hand column, e.g. '>', or whatever). The reply MUST be sent to: > dopost@postnews.dejanews.com > - You must change the Subject: header of your reply to contain the > words: "PLEASE POST" (capitalization doesn't matter). (Note: this is the > Subject header of the message you send to us, not the subject header of the > article you wish to have posted). > > [The following string must not be changed/modified/wrapped/truncated.] > TRANSID:315f70e42de564c10de2170b3bebd88fb53ebdd85511 > ===================================================================== ====== > From: FG <@moa.net> > Subject: t.r.bahai Response: "bossy bahais" > Newsgroups: news.groups > Message-Id: <856101831.12678@dejanews.com> > Reply-To: Frederick Glaysher <@moa.net> > Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service > To: Lisa Armstrong > X-Article-Creation-Date: Sun Feb 16 14:03:51 1997 GMT > X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.34 (ppp-pm01-dy-2.ouhub.moa.net) > X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) > > PLEASE POST ALL DISCUSSION TO NEWS.GROUPS > > Subject: > Re: I agree about the "bossy" Baha'is0 > Date: > Fri, 14 Feb 1997 11:59:21 -0600 > From: > Lisa Armstrong > To: > @moa.net > > > Dear Fred, (or Pam) > At 08:13 AM 2/15/97 -0700, you wrote: > >@moa.net wrote: > > > > I've been a Bahai for over twenty years, and I believe many > >> individuals do indeed "seek to control" others' thoughts... > > I tend to agree with you. I have also been a Baha'i for more than 20 > years. > It will be 24 years this summer, to be exact. Most of the problem, as I > see > it , as far as Baha'is being "bossy" or whatever (trying to control others > thoughts) centers a lack of either personal maturity and/or a lack of > deepening. > > AND YOU KNOW, THIS IS ALL I'M SAYING, LISA.... AND LOOK AT THE > REACTION.... > > Of course, there are also those who think that they know "everything" > there > is to know about the Cause. I compare this type of Baha'i (often > obnoxious) > to those who could perhaps submit and be given a "permit" to say that they > know almost everything (Hands of the Cause, Counsellors, Universal House > of > Justice members, occasionally some beloved, spiritual souls who have no > "titles") > > We do, indeed, I think, have a unique perspective having been Baha'is as > long as we have. We are old enough to remember some of the "oldster" in > the > Faith (those who had met Abd'ul-Baha'- we remember when Glenford Mitchell > was still Secretary of the NSA), and we have seen the Faith in the U.S. go > through some _pretty_ strange things. However, at this juncture, at least > where I am in the U.S., the biggest test is to just "keep on keepin' on". > Sometimes I have such a struggle maintaining any sort of Baha'i identity, > as > the communities close to where I live are pretty "dead", and many of the > friends are apathetic, or lip-service what should be done, and seldom to > never do anything. > > I DO AGREE WITH YOU TOO ABOUT THE "UNIQUE PERSPECTIVE" A LONG TIME IN > THE FAITH CAN GIVE ONE, AT LEAST LONGER THAN LET'S SAY THE STARRY- > EYED PERIOD OF WHATEVER LENGTH.... TIME ALONE DOESN'T MEAN EVERYTHING, > OF COURSE.... > > Everyone seems "too busy" to want to teach the Faith, work with the youth, > teach children's classes, have prayer meetings, sing in the choir, > etc.,etc. > > This is perhaps the saddest that I have ever seen it here. I pray that it > will change someday, but I have lived in this area for the entire time I > have been a Baha'i. > > WHAT AREA IS THAT? OF COURSE, I'VE SEEN IT IN SEVERAL BAHAI COMMUNITIES > AROUND THE US AND ABROAD.... > > My main goal is to move to the southwestern part of the U.S., where I am > very drawn,spiritually. What about you and your area of the states? What > goes on? > > SAME THING EVERYWHERE, YOU SEE.... > > What is behind your feeling that Baha'is seem to want to control your > thoughts? > (Just curious) > > TWENTY YEARS OF EXPERIENCING IT.... AND THE SINCERE DESIRE TO SEE > THE FAITH REACH THE MASSESS.... I DON'T BELIEVE IT EVER WILL IF > INDIVIDUALS CONTINUE THROTTLING ALL GENUINELY HELD RELIGIOUS > CONSCIENCE AND BELIEF. BAHA'U'LLAH UNDERSTOOD THE ANTINOMIES IN > THE HUMAN SOUL.... THAT THEY'RE GROUNDED IN THE FREE WILL GOD HAS > GIVEN THE HUMAN CREATURE... BY AND LARGE, I DON'T BELIEVE BAHAIS > DO.... > > Lisa Armstrong** > lisarm@cei.net > > // "...God hath sent down His Messengers to succeed to Moses // > // and Jesus, and He will continue to do so till 'the end // > // that hath no end'; so that His grace may, from the heaven// > // of Divine bounty, be continually vouchsafed to mankind." // > // - Baha'u'llah // > > (**Ask me about this quote from the Baha'i Faith**) > > I KNOW IT WOULD TAKE REAL COURAGE IN THIS ENVIRONMENT, BUT IF > YOU FEEL SO MOVED, I'D APPRECIATE YOUR SHARING YOUR THOUGHTS > WITH OTHERS, AND BAHAIS, ON SOC.RELIGION.BAHAI AND NEWS.GROUPS > > FREDERICK GLAYSHER > ROCHESTER HILLS, MICHIGAN USA > > -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- > https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet > > ===================================================================== ====== > > WHAT TO DO IF YOU DID NOT REQUEST THIS POSTING: > ---------------------------------------------- > [This article has NOT yet been posted to Usenet. The reason we send this > email is to authenticate the author of articles we post.] > > If you did not request this article be posted to Usenet via the Deja News > service, that could mean someone using our service forged your address and > attempted to make this article appear as if you had posted it. The person > who did this used the IP address we log in the X-Originating-IP-Addr: > header field of the posting. This person may be able to be traced if you > contact the system administrator at their site. > > If you would like us to try to find out if someone forged your address, > please write to postnews@dejanews.com, include a statement like "I didn't > write this, please find out who did", and include this entire message. We > will try to help you as much as we can, but we are not a legal body and > other system administrators are not always cooperative, so we cannot > promise any results. We are sorry for any inconvenience. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Sun Feb 16 11:32:16 1997 BCC: @MOA.net Message-ID: <33073690.20AC@moa.net> Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 11:32:16 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dopost@grunt.dejanews.com Subject: please post References: <199702161420.IAA13323@grunt.dejanews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 6673 dopost@grunt.dejanews.com wrote: > > [A reply is required to post your article. (If you did not request this, > please do not reply to this email, instead read the instructions at the > bottom of this note, and send any questions to postnews@dejanews.com).] > > You have requested that the following article be posted to Usenet via the > Posting Service at Deja News. Your article is currently sitting in our > spool waiting for you to authorize it by following the following > instructions: > > TO POST YOUR ARTICLE PLEASE READ AND FOLLOW THESE INSTRUCTIONS: > --------------------------------------------------------------- > - You must reply to this email, including the ENTIRE text of this email in > the reply. (It's okay if your email program inserts characters in the left > hand column, e.g. '>', or whatever). The reply MUST be sent to: > dopost@postnews.dejanews.com > - You must change the Subject: header of your reply to contain the > words: "PLEASE POST" (capitalization doesn't matter). (Note: this is the > Subject header of the message you send to us, not the subject header of the > article you wish to have posted). > > [The following string must not be changed/modified/wrapped/truncated.] > TRANSID:013fb0b42dc554c166833ec04b84421ab3268dcd06c4 > ===================================================================== ====== > From: FG <@moa.net> > Subject: T.R.Bahai: For Everybody > Newsgroups: news.groups > Message-Id: <856102824.13291@dejanews.com> > Reply-To: Frederick Glaysher <@moa.net> > Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service > To: rreini@wwnet.com,SRB-MODS@BCCA.ORG > X-Article-Creation-Date: Sun Feb 16 14:20:25 1997 GMT > X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.52 (ppp-pm01-dy-20.ouhub.moa.net) > X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) > > ROGER, PLEASE EMAIL SRB-MODS@BCCA.ORG THAT YOU PERMIT THIS PRIVATE > EMAIL TO BE POST THERE, IF IT'S ALL RIGHT WITH YOU. THANKS. > > Subject: > Re: t.r.bahai - NEEDED > Date: > Sat, 15 Feb 1997 18:54:38 GMT > From: > rreini@wwnet.com (Roger Reini) > To: > @moa.net > References: > 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 > > > On 15 Feb 1997 09:52:04 -0700, in soc.religion.bahai Frederick > Glaysher wrote: > > >Do you think I'm a covenant breaker? Do you think I'm trying to > >change the administration? > > This note is to everybody. > > THEN WE NEED TO POST IT WHERE EVERBODY CAN SEE IT. > > We individuals must be VERY careful about making such allegations. I > do not feel that that happened in this case, but it is something we > need to keep in mind. > > RAISING THIS ISSUE, THOUGH, IN BAHAI CIRCLES, IS TANTAMOUNT TO > WAVING A RED FLAG BEFORE A BULL.... TO CHANGE METAPHORS, OR DROP > IT RATHER, IT STIFLES ALL DISCUSSION OFTEN. IT'S AKIN REALLY TO > THE RED-BAITING OF THE 50'S AND 60'S DURING THE COLD WAR. > > Accusing someone of breaking the Covenant is a very serious matter, > one that should not be done lightly. The consequences are serious for > all involved. But if somebody feels that somebody has made a > statement that appears to contravene the Covenant, he/she should feel > free to say so and to call upon that individual to explain how it does > not contravene the Covenant. Here is a quotation from a letter from > the Secretariat at the Baha'i World Centre dated Feb. 1996: > > I DON'T DISAGREE WITH ANYTHING ABOVE OR BELOW. I DO, HOWEVER, FEEL > THIS IS TOO CAVALIERLY BROUGHT, ON MANY OCCASIONS, INCLUDING THIS > ONE. I HAVEN'T ATTACKED THE INSTITUTIONS OR THE FAITH. I HAVE > CALLED INTO QUESTION, FOR GOOD REASONS, IMHO, THE CONDUCT AND > PROCEDURES OF INDIVIDUALS RUNNING A PUBLIC FORUM OF DISCUSSION. > TO INTIMATE IN ANY WAY THAT I'M AUTOMATICALLY A COVENANT BREAKER > IS SCREAMING FIRE IN A THEATER.... > > "Thus, if any participant in an email discussion > feels that a view put forward appears to contradict or > undermine the provisions of the Covenant, he should be > free to say so, explaining candidly and courteously why he > feels as he does. The person who made the initial > statement will then be able to re-evaluate his opinion > and, if he still believes it to be valid, he should be > able to explain why it is not contrary to either the > letter or the spirit of the Covenant." > > Given the recent discussions about the proposed talk.religion.bahai, > it may be worthwhile for us to consider two recent statements of the > Universal House of Justice about email discussion. I'll post those > separately. > > IS THERE A PASSAGE I'VE WRITTEN YOU WANT TO CITE? IF YOUR MAKING > THE CHARGE, OR EVEN AS YOU ARE HERE VAGUELY INTIMATING IT BY > BRINGING UP THE WHOLE ISSUE, WHERE'S THE EVIDENCE? I'M NOT > AFRAID OF THE CHARGE BECAUSE I GENUINELY SUPPORT THE ADMINISTRATIVE > ORDER OF BAHA'U'LLAH.... > > Roger (rreini@wwnet.com) > https://www.wwnet.com/~rreini/ > > FREDERICK GLAYSHER > ROCHESTER HILLS, MICHIGAN USA > > -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- > https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet > > ===================================================================== ====== > > WHAT TO DO IF YOU DID NOT REQUEST THIS POSTING: > ---------------------------------------------- > [This article has NOT yet been posted to Usenet. The reason we send this > email is to authenticate the author of articles we post.] > > If you did not request this article be posted to Usenet via the Deja News > service, that could mean someone using our service forged your address and > attempted to make this article appear as if you had posted it. The person > who did this used the IP address we log in the X-Originating-IP-Addr: > header field of the posting. This person may be able to be traced if you > contact the system administrator at their site. > > If you would like us to try to find out if someone forged your address, > please write to postnews@dejanews.com, include a statement like "I didn't > write this, please find out who did", and include this entire message. We > will try to help you as much as we can, but we are not a legal body and > other system administrators are not always cooperative, so we cannot > promise any results. We are sorry for any inconvenience. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Sun Feb 16 11:34:07 1997 BCC: @MOA.net Message-ID: <33073690.20AC@moa.net> Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 11:34:07 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dopost@grunt.dejanews.com Subject: please post References: <199702161420.IAA13323@grunt.dejanews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 6673 dopost@grunt.dejanews.com wrote: > > [A reply is required to post your article. (If you did not request this, > please do not reply to this email, instead read the instructions at the > bottom of this note, and send any questions to postnews@dejanews.com).] > > You have requested that the following article be posted to Usenet via the > Posting Service at Deja News. Your article is currently sitting in our > spool waiting for you to authorize it by following the following > instructions: > > TO POST YOUR ARTICLE PLEASE READ AND FOLLOW THESE INSTRUCTIONS: > --------------------------------------------------------------- > - You must reply to this email, including the ENTIRE text of this email in > the reply. (It's okay if your email program inserts characters in the left > hand column, e.g. '>', or whatever). The reply MUST be sent to: > dopost@postnews.dejanews.com > - You must change the Subject: header of your reply to contain the > words: "PLEASE POST" (capitalization doesn't matter). (Note: this is the > Subject header of the message you send to us, not the subject header of the > article you wish to have posted). > > [The following string must not be changed/modified/wrapped/truncated.] > TRANSID:013fb0b42dc554c166833ec04b84421ab3268dcd06c4 > ===================================================================== ====== > From: FG <@moa.net> > Subject: T.R.Bahai: For Everybody > Newsgroups: news.groups > Message-Id: <856102824.13291@dejanews.com> > Reply-To: Frederick Glaysher <@moa.net> > Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service > To: rreini@wwnet.com,SRB-MODS@BCCA.ORG > X-Article-Creation-Date: Sun Feb 16 14:20:25 1997 GMT > X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.52 (ppp-pm01-dy-20.ouhub.moa.net) > X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) > > ROGER, PLEASE EMAIL SRB-MODS@BCCA.ORG THAT YOU PERMIT THIS PRIVATE > EMAIL TO BE POST THERE, IF IT'S ALL RIGHT WITH YOU. THANKS. > > Subject: > Re: t.r.bahai - NEEDED > Date: > Sat, 15 Feb 1997 18:54:38 GMT > From: > rreini@wwnet.com (Roger Reini) > To: > @moa.net > References: > 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 > > > On 15 Feb 1997 09:52:04 -0700, in soc.religion.bahai Frederick > Glaysher wrote: > > >Do you think I'm a covenant breaker? Do you think I'm trying to > >change the administration? > > This note is to everybody. > > THEN WE NEED TO POST IT WHERE EVERBODY CAN SEE IT. > > We individuals must be VERY careful about making such allegations. I > do not feel that that happened in this case, but it is something we > need to keep in mind. > > RAISING THIS ISSUE, THOUGH, IN BAHAI CIRCLES, IS TANTAMOUNT TO > WAVING A RED FLAG BEFORE A BULL.... TO CHANGE METAPHORS, OR DROP > IT RATHER, IT STIFLES ALL DISCUSSION OFTEN. IT'S AKIN REALLY TO > THE RED-BAITING OF THE 50'S AND 60'S DURING THE COLD WAR. > > Accusing someone of breaking the Covenant is a very serious matter, > one that should not be done lightly. The consequences are serious for > all involved. But if somebody feels that somebody has made a > statement that appears to contravene the Covenant, he/she should feel > free to say so and to call upon that individual to explain how it does > not contravene the Covenant. Here is a quotation from a letter from > the Secretariat at the Baha'i World Centre dated Feb. 1996: > > I DON'T DISAGREE WITH ANYTHING ABOVE OR BELOW. I DO, HOWEVER, FEEL > THIS IS TOO CAVALIERLY BROUGHT, ON MANY OCCASIONS, INCLUDING THIS > ONE. I HAVEN'T ATTACKED THE INSTITUTIONS OR THE FAITH. I HAVE > CALLED INTO QUESTION, FOR GOOD REASONS, IMHO, THE CONDUCT AND > PROCEDURES OF INDIVIDUALS RUNNING A PUBLIC FORUM OF DISCUSSION. > TO INTIMATE IN ANY WAY THAT I'M AUTOMATICALLY A COVENANT BREAKER > IS SCREAMING FIRE IN A THEATER.... > > "Thus, if any participant in an email discussion > feels that a view put forward appears to contradict or > undermine the provisions of the Covenant, he should be > free to say so, explaining candidly and courteously why he > feels as he does. The person who made the initial > statement will then be able to re-evaluate his opinion > and, if he still believes it to be valid, he should be > able to explain why it is not contrary to either the > letter or the spirit of the Covenant." > > Given the recent discussions about the proposed talk.religion.bahai, > it may be worthwhile for us to consider two recent statements of the > Universal House of Justice about email discussion. I'll post those > separately. > > IS THERE A PASSAGE I'VE WRITTEN YOU WANT TO CITE? IF YOUR MAKING > THE CHARGE, OR EVEN AS YOU ARE HERE VAGUELY INTIMATING IT BY > BRINGING UP THE WHOLE ISSUE, WHERE'S THE EVIDENCE? I'M NOT > AFRAID OF THE CHARGE BECAUSE I GENUINELY SUPPORT THE ADMINISTRATIVE > ORDER OF BAHA'U'LLAH.... > > Roger (rreini@wwnet.com) > https://www.wwnet.com/~rreini/ > > FREDERICK GLAYSHER > ROCHESTER HILLS, MICHIGAN USA > > -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- > https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet > > ===================================================================== ====== > > WHAT TO DO IF YOU DID NOT REQUEST THIS POSTING: > ---------------------------------------------- > [This article has NOT yet been posted to Usenet. The reason we send this > email is to authenticate the author of articles we post.] > > If you did not request this article be posted to Usenet via the Deja News > service, that could mean someone using our service forged your address and > attempted to make this article appear as if you had posted it. The person > who did this used the IP address we log in the X-Originating-IP-Addr: > header field of the posting. This person may be able to be traced if you > contact the system administrator at their site. > > If you would like us to try to find out if someone forged your address, > please write to postnews@dejanews.com, include a statement like "I didn't > write this, please find out who did", and include this entire message. We > will try to help you as much as we can, but we are not a legal body and > other system administrators are not always cooperative, so we cannot > promise any results. We are sorry for any inconvenience. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Sun Feb 16 11:35:20 1997 Received: from default (204.38.255.50) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Sun, 16 Feb 1997 11:26:40 -0500 Message-ID: <33073690.20AC@moa.net> Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 11:34:07 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dopost@grunt.dejanews.com Subject: please post References: <199702161420.IAA13323@grunt.dejanews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 6671 dopost@grunt.dejanews.com wrote: > > [A reply is required to post your article. (If you did not request this, > please do not reply to this email, instead read the instructions at the > bottom of this note, and send any questions to postnews@dejanews.com).] > > You have requested that the following article be posted to Usenet via the > Posting Service at Deja News. Your article is currently sitting in our > spool waiting for you to authorize it by following the following > instructions: > > TO POST YOUR ARTICLE PLEASE READ AND FOLLOW THESE INSTRUCTIONS: > --------------------------------------------------------------- > - You must reply to this email, including the ENTIRE text of this email in > the reply. (It's okay if your email program inserts characters in the left > hand column, e.g. '>', or whatever). The reply MUST be sent to: > dopost@postnews.dejanews.com > - You must change the Subject: header of your reply to contain the > words: "PLEASE POST" (capitalization doesn't matter). (Note: this is the > Subject header of the message you send to us, not the subject header of the > article you wish to have posted). > > [The following string must not be changed/modified/wrapped/truncated.] > TRANSID:013fb0b42dc554c166833ec04b84421ab3268dcd06c4 > ===================================================================== ====== > From: FG <@moa.net> > Subject: T.R.Bahai: For Everybody > Newsgroups: news.groups > Message-Id: <856102824.13291@dejanews.com> > Reply-To: Frederick Glaysher <@moa.net> > Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service > To: rreini@wwnet.com,SRB-MODS@BCCA.ORG > X-Article-Creation-Date: Sun Feb 16 14:20:25 1997 GMT > X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.52 (ppp-pm01-dy-20.ouhub.moa.net) > X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) > > ROGER, PLEASE EMAIL SRB-MODS@BCCA.ORG THAT YOU PERMIT THIS PRIVATE > EMAIL TO BE POST THERE, IF IT'S ALL RIGHT WITH YOU. THANKS. > > Subject: > Re: t.r.bahai - NEEDED > Date: > Sat, 15 Feb 1997 18:54:38 GMT > From: > rreini@wwnet.com (Roger Reini) > To: > @moa.net > References: > 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 > > > On 15 Feb 1997 09:52:04 -0700, in soc.religion.bahai Frederick > Glaysher wrote: > > >Do you think I'm a covenant breaker? Do you think I'm trying to > >change the administration? > > This note is to everybody. > > THEN WE NEED TO POST IT WHERE EVERBODY CAN SEE IT. > > We individuals must be VERY careful about making such allegations. I > do not feel that that happened in this case, but it is something we > need to keep in mind. > > RAISING THIS ISSUE, THOUGH, IN BAHAI CIRCLES, IS TANTAMOUNT TO > WAVING A RED FLAG BEFORE A BULL.... TO CHANGE METAPHORS, OR DROP > IT RATHER, IT STIFLES ALL DISCUSSION OFTEN. IT'S AKIN REALLY TO > THE RED-BAITING OF THE 50'S AND 60'S DURING THE COLD WAR. > > Accusing someone of breaking the Covenant is a very serious matter, > one that should not be done lightly. The consequences are serious for > all involved. But if somebody feels that somebody has made a > statement that appears to contravene the Covenant, he/she should feel > free to say so and to call upon that individual to explain how it does > not contravene the Covenant. Here is a quotation from a letter from > the Secretariat at the Baha'i World Centre dated Feb. 1996: > > I DON'T DISAGREE WITH ANYTHING ABOVE OR BELOW. I DO, HOWEVER, FEEL > THIS IS TOO CAVALIERLY BROUGHT, ON MANY OCCASIONS, INCLUDING THIS > ONE. I HAVEN'T ATTACKED THE INSTITUTIONS OR THE FAITH. I HAVE > CALLED INTO QUESTION, FOR GOOD REASONS, IMHO, THE CONDUCT AND > PROCEDURES OF INDIVIDUALS RUNNING A PUBLIC FORUM OF DISCUSSION. > TO INTIMATE IN ANY WAY THAT I'M AUTOMATICALLY A COVENANT BREAKER > IS SCREAMING FIRE IN A THEATER.... > > "Thus, if any participant in an email discussion > feels that a view put forward appears to contradict or > undermine the provisions of the Covenant, he should be > free to say so, explaining candidly and courteously why he > feels as he does. The person who made the initial > statement will then be able to re-evaluate his opinion > and, if he still believes it to be valid, he should be > able to explain why it is not contrary to either the > letter or the spirit of the Covenant." > > Given the recent discussions about the proposed talk.religion.bahai, > it may be worthwhile for us to consider two recent statements of the > Universal House of Justice about email discussion. I'll post those > separately. > > IS THERE A PASSAGE I'VE WRITTEN YOU WANT TO CITE? IF YOUR MAKING > THE CHARGE, OR EVEN AS YOU ARE HERE VAGUELY INTIMATING IT BY > BRINGING UP THE WHOLE ISSUE, WHERE'S THE EVIDENCE? I'M NOT > AFRAID OF THE CHARGE BECAUSE I GENUINELY SUPPORT THE ADMINISTRATIVE > ORDER OF BAHA'U'LLAH.... > > Roger (rreini@wwnet.com) > https://www.wwnet.com/~rreini/ > > FREDERICK GLAYSHER > ROCHESTER HILLS, MICHIGAN USA > > -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- > https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet > > ===================================================================== ====== > > WHAT TO DO IF YOU DID NOT REQUEST THIS POSTING: > ---------------------------------------------- > [This article has NOT yet been posted to Usenet. The reason we send this > email is to authenticate the author of articles we post.] > > If you did not request this article be posted to Usenet via the Deja News > service, that could mean someone using our service forged your address and > attempted to make this article appear as if you had posted it. The person > who did this used the IP address we log in the X-Originating-IP-Addr: > header field of the posting. This person may be able to be traced if you > contact the system administrator at their site. > > If you would like us to try to find out if someone forged your address, > please write to postnews@dejanews.com, include a statement like "I didn't > write this, please find out who did", and include this entire message. We > will try to help you as much as we can, but we are not a legal body and > other system administrators are not always cooperative, so we cannot > promise any results. We are sorry for any inconvenience. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Sun Feb 16 19:38:16 1997 BCC: @MOA.net Message-ID: <3307A878.6788@moa.net> Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 19:38:16 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dopost@grunt.dejanews.com Subject: please post References: <199702161459.IAA14714@grunt.dejanews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 6097 dopost@grunt.dejanews.com wrote: > > [A reply is required to post your article. (If you did not request this, > please do not reply to this email, instead read the instructions at the > bottom of this note, and send any questions to postnews@dejanews.com).] > > You have requested that the following article be posted to Usenet via the > Posting Service at Deja News. Your article is currently sitting in our > spool waiting for you to authorize it by following the following > instructions: > > TO POST YOUR ARTICLE PLEASE READ AND FOLLOW THESE INSTRUCTIONS: > --------------------------------------------------------------- > - You must reply to this email, including the ENTIRE text of this email in > the reply. (It's okay if your email program inserts characters in the left > hand column, e.g. '>', or whatever). The reply MUST be sent to: > dopost@postnews.dejanews.com > - You must change the Subject: header of your reply to contain the > words: "PLEASE POST" (capitalization doesn't matter). (Note: this is the > Subject header of the message you send to us, not the subject header of the > article you wish to have posted). > > [The following string must not be changed/modified/wrapped/truncated.] > TRANSID:716f50f4ddb564c1bccfab3c7ecbbdba24691d2fd5d1 > ===================================================================== ====== > From: FG <@moa.net> > Subject: T.R.bahai Response: Sevcik > Newsgroups: news.groups > Message-Id: <856105146.14696@dejanews.com> > Reply-To: Frederick Glaysher <@moa.net> > Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service > To: srb-mods@bcca.org > X-Article-Creation-Date: Sun Feb 16 14:59:06 1997 GMT > X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.57 (ppp-pm01-dy-25.ouhub.moa.net) > X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) > > Edward Sevcik wrote: > > > > In article <5dql1t$hf1@nnrp1.news.primenet.com>, @moa.net > > says... > > > > >Foul.... Who elected or appointed the moderators to make these > > >decisions? > > > > > >Answer: nobody. I take this as anther instance of censorship and > > >evidence of why talk.religion.bahai is needed. > > > > Dear Fred - > > > > Your statements do nothing to show the need of such a forum. The word > > "censorship" implies that someone has the power to keep people from > > hearing whatever you wish to say. > > I have not implied; I have stated it outright as something that exists; > others have agreed. I have cooperated, as asked by others, and posted > evidence to news.groups for people to read for themselves. > > There are many avenues, on Usenet > > and the WWW, to get your point across on any issue concerning the > > Baha'i Faith. > > I've indicated repeatedly that this suggestion is an inadequate one, > IMHO. > > We do not need an unmoderated newsgroup full of > > MAKE.MONEY.FAST and harsh, disreputable flamewars between people whose > > only interest is to make insulting statements and upset others. > > "MAKE.MONEY.FAST"? Wow! I've never suggested anything in that regard. > How would anyone make money off talk.religion.bahai? The rest of the > above sounds to me like character assassination, namely, of mine and > my position, if you will. > > This is > > NOT a first amendment issue, I must tell you. As I understand it, > > the Faith, our part in the Covenant, implies that we remain silent and > > accept certain things that we, as Americans, are culturally trained > > to disobey or complain about in public. Please do not agitate for > > this issue any more. It is not worth it. > > > > I believe it is a first amendment issue. I am a Bahai, and I am a > citizen of this country. What I have candidly and honestly said is > that there is a problem with the way INDIVIDUALS are interpreting and > constraining the expression of religious conviction and conscience on > soc.religion.bahai. I have not said it's a plot on the part of the > Administrative Order of Baha'u'llah to get us all to drink poisoned > Kool-Ade or something. Let's keep a fair perspective here. I do not > believe that the Covenant requires us to accept injustice when it > occurs to us. Your use of the word "agitate" is loaded with nuances > that are unfair. Justice is worth any sacrifice: "The best beloved > of all things in my sight is justice." > > > Ed > > Please crosspost your responses to news.groups > > -- > Frederick Glaysher > Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > > -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- > https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet > > ===================================================================== ====== > > WHAT TO DO IF YOU DID NOT REQUEST THIS POSTING: > ---------------------------------------------- > [This article has NOT yet been posted to Usenet. The reason we send this > email is to authenticate the author of articles we post.] > > If you did not request this article be posted to Usenet via the Deja News > service, that could mean someone using our service forged your address and > attempted to make this article appear as if you had posted it. The person > who did this used the IP address we log in the X-Originating-IP-Addr: > header field of the posting. This person may be able to be traced if you > contact the system administrator at their site. > > If you would like us to try to find out if someone forged your address, > please write to postnews@dejanews.com, include a statement like "I didn't > write this, please find out who did", and include this entire message. We > will try to help you as much as we can, but we are not a legal body and > other system administrators are not always cooperative, so we cannot > promise any results. We are sorry for any inconvenience. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Sun Feb 16 19:39:12 1997 BCC: @MOA.net Message-ID: <3307A878.6788@moa.net> Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 19:39:12 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dopost@grunt.dejanews.com Subject: please post References: <199702161459.IAA14714@grunt.dejanews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 6097 dopost@grunt.dejanews.com wrote: > > [A reply is required to post your article. (If you did not request this, > please do not reply to this email, instead read the instructions at the > bottom of this note, and send any questions to postnews@dejanews.com).] > > You have requested that the following article be posted to Usenet via the > Posting Service at Deja News. Your article is currently sitting in our > spool waiting for you to authorize it by following the following > instructions: > > TO POST YOUR ARTICLE PLEASE READ AND FOLLOW THESE INSTRUCTIONS: > --------------------------------------------------------------- > - You must reply to this email, including the ENTIRE text of this email in > the reply. (It's okay if your email program inserts characters in the left > hand column, e.g. '>', or whatever). The reply MUST be sent to: > dopost@postnews.dejanews.com > - You must change the Subject: header of your reply to contain the > words: "PLEASE POST" (capitalization doesn't matter). (Note: this is the > Subject header of the message you send to us, not the subject header of the > article you wish to have posted). > > [The following string must not be changed/modified/wrapped/truncated.] > TRANSID:716f50f4ddb564c1bccfab3c7ecbbdba24691d2fd5d1 > ===================================================================== ====== > From: FG <@moa.net> > Subject: T.R.bahai Response: Sevcik > Newsgroups: news.groups > Message-Id: <856105146.14696@dejanews.com> > Reply-To: Frederick Glaysher <@moa.net> > Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service > To: srb-mods@bcca.org > X-Article-Creation-Date: Sun Feb 16 14:59:06 1997 GMT > X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.57 (ppp-pm01-dy-25.ouhub.moa.net) > X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) > > Edward Sevcik wrote: > > > > In article <5dql1t$hf1@nnrp1.news.primenet.com>, @moa.net > > says... > > > > >Foul.... Who elected or appointed the moderators to make these > > >decisions? > > > > > >Answer: nobody. I take this as anther instance of censorship and > > >evidence of why talk.religion.bahai is needed. > > > > Dear Fred - > > > > Your statements do nothing to show the need of such a forum. The word > > "censorship" implies that someone has the power to keep people from > > hearing whatever you wish to say. > > I have not implied; I have stated it outright as something that exists; > others have agreed. I have cooperated, as asked by others, and posted > evidence to news.groups for people to read for themselves. > > There are many avenues, on Usenet > > and the WWW, to get your point across on any issue concerning the > > Baha'i Faith. > > I've indicated repeatedly that this suggestion is an inadequate one, > IMHO. > > We do not need an unmoderated newsgroup full of > > MAKE.MONEY.FAST and harsh, disreputable flamewars between people whose > > only interest is to make insulting statements and upset others. > > "MAKE.MONEY.FAST"? Wow! I've never suggested anything in that regard. > How would anyone make money off talk.religion.bahai? The rest of the > above sounds to me like character assassination, namely, of mine and > my position, if you will. > > This is > > NOT a first amendment issue, I must tell you. As I understand it, > > the Faith, our part in the Covenant, implies that we remain silent and > > accept certain things that we, as Americans, are culturally trained > > to disobey or complain about in public. Please do not agitate for > > this issue any more. It is not worth it. > > > > I believe it is a first amendment issue. I am a Bahai, and I am a > citizen of this country. What I have candidly and honestly said is > that there is a problem with the way INDIVIDUALS are interpreting and > constraining the expression of religious conviction and conscience on > soc.religion.bahai. I have not said it's a plot on the part of the > Administrative Order of Baha'u'llah to get us all to drink poisoned > Kool-Ade or something. Let's keep a fair perspective here. I do not > believe that the Covenant requires us to accept injustice when it > occurs to us. Your use of the word "agitate" is loaded with nuances > that are unfair. Justice is worth any sacrifice: "The best beloved > of all things in my sight is justice." > > > Ed > > Please crosspost your responses to news.groups > > -- > Frederick Glaysher > Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > > -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- > https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet > > ===================================================================== ====== > > WHAT TO DO IF YOU DID NOT REQUEST THIS POSTING: > ---------------------------------------------- > [This article has NOT yet been posted to Usenet. The reason we send this > email is to authenticate the author of articles we post.] > > If you did not request this article be posted to Usenet via the Deja News > service, that could mean someone using our service forged your address and > attempted to make this article appear as if you had posted it. The person > who did this used the IP address we log in the X-Originating-IP-Addr: > header field of the posting. This person may be able to be traced if you > contact the system administrator at their site. > > If you would like us to try to find out if someone forged your address, > please write to postnews@dejanews.com, include a statement like "I didn't > write this, please find out who did", and include this entire message. We > will try to help you as much as we can, but we are not a legal body and > other system administrators are not always cooperative, so we cannot > promise any results. We are sorry for any inconvenience. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Sun Feb 16 19:44:47 1997 Received: from default (204.38.255.48) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Sun, 16 Feb 1997 19:31:46 -0500 Message-ID: <3307A878.6788@moa.net> Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 19:39:12 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dopost@grunt.dejanews.com Subject: please post References: <199702161459.IAA14714@grunt.dejanews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 6095 dopost@grunt.dejanews.com wrote: > > [A reply is required to post your article. (If you did not request this, > please do not reply to this email, instead read the instructions at the > bottom of this note, and send any questions to postnews@dejanews.com).] > > You have requested that the following article be posted to Usenet via the > Posting Service at Deja News. Your article is currently sitting in our > spool waiting for you to authorize it by following the following > instructions: > > TO POST YOUR ARTICLE PLEASE READ AND FOLLOW THESE INSTRUCTIONS: > --------------------------------------------------------------- > - You must reply to this email, including the ENTIRE text of this email in > the reply. (It's okay if your email program inserts characters in the left > hand column, e.g. '>', or whatever). The reply MUST be sent to: > dopost@postnews.dejanews.com > - You must change the Subject: header of your reply to contain the > words: "PLEASE POST" (capitalization doesn't matter). (Note: this is the > Subject header of the message you send to us, not the subject header of the > article you wish to have posted). > > [The following string must not be changed/modified/wrapped/truncated.] > TRANSID:716f50f4ddb564c1bccfab3c7ecbbdba24691d2fd5d1 > ===================================================================== ====== > From: FG <@moa.net> > Subject: T.R.bahai Response: Sevcik > Newsgroups: news.groups > Message-Id: <856105146.14696@dejanews.com> > Reply-To: Frederick Glaysher <@moa.net> > Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service > To: srb-mods@bcca.org > X-Article-Creation-Date: Sun Feb 16 14:59:06 1997 GMT > X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.57 (ppp-pm01-dy-25.ouhub.moa.net) > X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) > > Edward Sevcik wrote: > > > > In article <5dql1t$hf1@nnrp1.news.primenet.com>, @moa.net > > says... > > > > >Foul.... Who elected or appointed the moderators to make these > > >decisions? > > > > > >Answer: nobody. I take this as anther instance of censorship and > > >evidence of why talk.religion.bahai is needed. > > > > Dear Fred - > > > > Your statements do nothing to show the need of such a forum. The word > > "censorship" implies that someone has the power to keep people from > > hearing whatever you wish to say. > > I have not implied; I have stated it outright as something that exists; > others have agreed. I have cooperated, as asked by others, and posted > evidence to news.groups for people to read for themselves. > > There are many avenues, on Usenet > > and the WWW, to get your point across on any issue concerning the > > Baha'i Faith. > > I've indicated repeatedly that this suggestion is an inadequate one, > IMHO. > > We do not need an unmoderated newsgroup full of > > MAKE.MONEY.FAST and harsh, disreputable flamewars between people whose > > only interest is to make insulting statements and upset others. > > "MAKE.MONEY.FAST"? Wow! I've never suggested anything in that regard. > How would anyone make money off talk.religion.bahai? The rest of the > above sounds to me like character assassination, namely, of mine and > my position, if you will. > > This is > > NOT a first amendment issue, I must tell you. As I understand it, > > the Faith, our part in the Covenant, implies that we remain silent and > > accept certain things that we, as Americans, are culturally trained > > to disobey or complain about in public. Please do not agitate for > > this issue any more. It is not worth it. > > > > I believe it is a first amendment issue. I am a Bahai, and I am a > citizen of this country. What I have candidly and honestly said is > that there is a problem with the way INDIVIDUALS are interpreting and > constraining the expression of religious conviction and conscience on > soc.religion.bahai. I have not said it's a plot on the part of the > Administrative Order of Baha'u'llah to get us all to drink poisoned > Kool-Ade or something. Let's keep a fair perspective here. I do not > believe that the Covenant requires us to accept injustice when it > occurs to us. Your use of the word "agitate" is loaded with nuances > that are unfair. Justice is worth any sacrifice: "The best beloved > of all things in my sight is justice." > > > Ed > > Please crosspost your responses to news.groups > > -- > Frederick Glaysher > Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > > -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- > https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet > > ===================================================================== ====== > > WHAT TO DO IF YOU DID NOT REQUEST THIS POSTING: > ---------------------------------------------- > [This article has NOT yet been posted to Usenet. The reason we send this > email is to authenticate the author of articles we post.] > > If you did not request this article be posted to Usenet via the Deja News > service, that could mean someone using our service forged your address and > attempted to make this article appear as if you had posted it. The person > who did this used the IP address we log in the X-Originating-IP-Addr: > header field of the posting. This person may be able to be traced if you > contact the system administrator at their site. > > If you would like us to try to find out if someone forged your address, > please write to postnews@dejanews.com, include a statement like "I didn't > write this, please find out who did", and include this entire message. We > will try to help you as much as we can, but we are not a legal body and > other system administrators are not always cooperative, so we cannot > promise any results. We are sorry for any inconvenience. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Mon Feb 17 08:05:50 1997 Received: from default (204.38.255.38) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Mon, 17 Feb 1997 07:57:47 -0500 Message-ID: <3308578B.706E@moa.net> Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 08:05:15 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dopost@grunt.dejanews.com Subject: please post References: <199702171029.EAA14950@grunt.dejanews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 5523 dopost@grunt.dejanews.com wrote: > > [A reply is required to post your article. (If you did not request this, > please do not reply to this email, instead read the instructions at the > bottom of this note, and send any questions to postnews@dejanews.com).] > > You have requested that the following article be posted to Usenet via the > Posting Service at Deja News. Your article is currently sitting in our > spool waiting for you to authorize it by following the following > instructions: > > TO POST YOUR ARTICLE PLEASE READ AND FOLLOW THESE INSTRUCTIONS: > --------------------------------------------------------------- > - You must reply to this email, including the ENTIRE text of this email in > the reply. (It's okay if your email program inserts characters in the left > hand column, e.g. '>', or whatever). The reply MUST be sent to: > dopost@postnews.dejanews.com > - You must change the Subject: header of your reply to contain the > words: "PLEASE POST" (capitalization doesn't matter). (Note: this is the > Subject header of the message you send to us, not the subject header of the > article you wish to have posted). > > [The following string must not be changed/modified/wrapped/truncated.] > TRANSID:414f5004cd950441b86cb1a22d6e9f468624722e9a9a > ===================================================================== ====== > From: FG <@moa.net> > Subject: SRB: Iron Curtain Imposed 2-16-97 > Newsgroups: news.groups > Message-Id: <856175339.14926@dejanews.com> > Reply-To: Frederick Glaysher <@moa.net> > Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service > To: srb-mods@bcca.org > X-Article-Creation-Date: Mon Feb 17 10:28:59 1997 GMT > X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.38 (ppp-pm01-dy-6.ouhub.moa.net) > X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) > > > > Subject: > Moving of talk.religion.bahai discussion to news.groups. > Date: > 15 Feb 1997 23:36:06 -0700 > From: > "Richard C. Detweiler" > Organization: > ---- > Newsgroups: > soc.religion.bahai > > > > To the readers of soc.religion.bahai and its echo mail list > bahai-faith@bcca.org: > > The moderators are convinced that the discussion of the > talk.religion.bahai proposal has made every salient point possible on > soc.religion.bahai to the extent that the topic reflects on "The > beliefs and teachings of the Baha'i Faith" which is the _only_ > subject that is valid for discussion on soc.religion.bahai. > > THE ONLY THING I'M CONVINCED OF IS YOUR DETERMINATION TO STRANGLE > ALL DISCUSSION, ESPECIALLY OF LATE, WHILE PERMITTING MESSAGES THAT > ASSASSINATE AND MALIGN MY CHARACTER, AS IN THE POSTING BY > DR. STEVE BURGESS. SINCE YOU DENY ME A JUST RESPONSE TO HIM, I'VE > REPOSTED IT ON NEWS.GROUPS--THE SIBERIA YOU'VE CHOSEN TO RELEGATE > DISCUSSION TO.... > > Further, the proper place for the discussion of proposed news groups > is the group news.groups. If you do not have usenet access on your > computer, you can read news.group and post to it via the world wide > web at https://www.dejanews.com > > FALSE. AS LONG AS MESSAGES ARE CROSSPOSTED TO NEWS.GROUPS, DISCUSSION > CAN TAKE PLACE, UNDER USENET GUIDELINES, ANYWHERE. > > Effective immediately, we will forward all posts regarding the > talk.religion.bahai proposal to news.groups rather than posting them > to soc.religion.bahai invoking both the "Beliefs and Teachings of the > Baha'i Faith" clause and the repetion clause of the charter. > > SUPPRESS THEM BY CHANNELING THEM OFF INTO OBLIVION IS WHAT YOU'RE > ACTUALLY DOING. BOTH INVOKED SINCE THEY SUIT YOUR PURPOSES. > > Rest assured that we will post the Call For Votes (CFV) when it is > released to both the newsgroup and the email list. > > The moderators of soc.religion.bahai > > > FREDERICK GLAYSHER > ROCHESTER HILLS, MICHIGAN USA > > -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- > https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet > > ===================================================================== ====== > > WHAT TO DO IF YOU DID NOT REQUEST THIS POSTING: > ---------------------------------------------- > [This article has NOT yet been posted to Usenet. The reason we send this > email is to authenticate the author of articles we post.] > > If you did not request this article be posted to Usenet via the Deja News > service, that could mean someone using our service forged your address and > attempted to make this article appear as if you had posted it. The person > who did this used the IP address we log in the X-Originating-IP-Addr: > header field of the posting. This person may be able to be traced if you > contact the system administrator at their site. > > If you would like us to try to find out if someone forged your address, > please write to postnews@dejanews.com, include a statement like "I didn't > write this, please find out who did", and include this entire message. We > will try to help you as much as we can, but we are not a legal body and > other system administrators are not always cooperative, so we cannot > promise any results. We are sorry for any inconvenience. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Mon Feb 17 08:05:15 1997 BCC: @MOA.net Message-ID: <3308578B.706E@moa.net> Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 08:05:15 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dopost@grunt.dejanews.com Subject: please post References: <199702171029.EAA14950@grunt.dejanews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 5525 dopost@grunt.dejanews.com wrote: > > [A reply is required to post your article. (If you did not request this, > please do not reply to this email, instead read the instructions at the > bottom of this note, and send any questions to postnews@dejanews.com).] > > You have requested that the following article be posted to Usenet via the > Posting Service at Deja News. Your article is currently sitting in our > spool waiting for you to authorize it by following the following > instructions: > > TO POST YOUR ARTICLE PLEASE READ AND FOLLOW THESE INSTRUCTIONS: > --------------------------------------------------------------- > - You must reply to this email, including the ENTIRE text of this email in > the reply. (It's okay if your email program inserts characters in the left > hand column, e.g. '>', or whatever). The reply MUST be sent to: > dopost@postnews.dejanews.com > - You must change the Subject: header of your reply to contain the > words: "PLEASE POST" (capitalization doesn't matter). (Note: this is the > Subject header of the message you send to us, not the subject header of the > article you wish to have posted). > > [The following string must not be changed/modified/wrapped/truncated.] > TRANSID:414f5004cd950441b86cb1a22d6e9f468624722e9a9a > ===================================================================== ====== > From: FG <@moa.net> > Subject: SRB: Iron Curtain Imposed 2-16-97 > Newsgroups: news.groups > Message-Id: <856175339.14926@dejanews.com> > Reply-To: Frederick Glaysher <@moa.net> > Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service > To: srb-mods@bcca.org > X-Article-Creation-Date: Mon Feb 17 10:28:59 1997 GMT > X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.38 (ppp-pm01-dy-6.ouhub.moa.net) > X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) > > > > Subject: > Moving of talk.religion.bahai discussion to news.groups. > Date: > 15 Feb 1997 23:36:06 -0700 > From: > "Richard C. Detweiler" > Organization: > ---- > Newsgroups: > soc.religion.bahai > > > > To the readers of soc.religion.bahai and its echo mail list > bahai-faith@bcca.org: > > The moderators are convinced that the discussion of the > talk.religion.bahai proposal has made every salient point possible on > soc.religion.bahai to the extent that the topic reflects on "The > beliefs and teachings of the Baha'i Faith" which is the _only_ > subject that is valid for discussion on soc.religion.bahai. > > THE ONLY THING I'M CONVINCED OF IS YOUR DETERMINATION TO STRANGLE > ALL DISCUSSION, ESPECIALLY OF LATE, WHILE PERMITTING MESSAGES THAT > ASSASSINATE AND MALIGN MY CHARACTER, AS IN THE POSTING BY > DR. STEVE BURGESS. SINCE YOU DENY ME A JUST RESPONSE TO HIM, I'VE > REPOSTED IT ON NEWS.GROUPS--THE SIBERIA YOU'VE CHOSEN TO RELEGATE > DISCUSSION TO.... > > Further, the proper place for the discussion of proposed news groups > is the group news.groups. If you do not have usenet access on your > computer, you can read news.group and post to it via the world wide > web at https://www.dejanews.com > > FALSE. AS LONG AS MESSAGES ARE CROSSPOSTED TO NEWS.GROUPS, DISCUSSION > CAN TAKE PLACE, UNDER USENET GUIDELINES, ANYWHERE. > > Effective immediately, we will forward all posts regarding the > talk.religion.bahai proposal to news.groups rather than posting them > to soc.religion.bahai invoking both the "Beliefs and Teachings of the > Baha'i Faith" clause and the repetion clause of the charter. > > SUPPRESS THEM BY CHANNELING THEM OFF INTO OBLIVION IS WHAT YOU'RE > ACTUALLY DOING. BOTH INVOKED SINCE THEY SUIT YOUR PURPOSES. > > Rest assured that we will post the Call For Votes (CFV) when it is > released to both the newsgroup and the email list. > > The moderators of soc.religion.bahai > > > FREDERICK GLAYSHER > ROCHESTER HILLS, MICHIGAN USA > > -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- > https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet > > ===================================================================== ====== > > WHAT TO DO IF YOU DID NOT REQUEST THIS POSTING: > ---------------------------------------------- > [This article has NOT yet been posted to Usenet. The reason we send this > email is to authenticate the author of articles we post.] > > If you did not request this article be posted to Usenet via the Deja News > service, that could mean someone using our service forged your address and > attempted to make this article appear as if you had posted it. The person > who did this used the IP address we log in the X-Originating-IP-Addr: > header field of the posting. This person may be able to be traced if you > contact the system administrator at their site. > > If you would like us to try to find out if someone forged your address, > please write to postnews@dejanews.com, include a statement like "I didn't > write this, please find out who did", and include this entire message. We > will try to help you as much as we can, but we are not a legal body and > other system administrators are not always cooperative, so we cannot > promise any results. We are sorry for any inconvenience. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Mon Feb 17 08:05:37 1997 BCC: @MOA.net Message-ID: <330857A1.2E9E@moa.net> Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 08:05:37 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dopost@grunt.dejanews.com Subject: please post References: <199702171037.EAA15213@grunt.dejanews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 6395 dopost@grunt.dejanews.com wrote: > > [A reply is required to post your article. (If you did not request this, > please do not reply to this email, instead read the instructions at the > bottom of this note, and send any questions to postnews@dejanews.com).] > > You have requested that the following article be posted to Usenet via the > Posting Service at Deja News. Your article is currently sitting in our > spool waiting for you to authorize it by following the following > instructions: > > TO POST YOUR ARTICLE PLEASE READ AND FOLLOW THESE INSTRUCTIONS: > --------------------------------------------------------------- > - You must reply to this email, including the ENTIRE text of this email in > the reply. (It's okay if your email program inserts characters in the left > hand column, e.g. '>', or whatever). The reply MUST be sent to: > dopost@postnews.dejanews.com > - You must change the Subject: header of your reply to contain the > words: "PLEASE POST" (capitalization doesn't matter). (Note: this is the > Subject header of the message you send to us, not the subject header of the > article you wish to have posted). > > [The following string must not be changed/modified/wrapped/truncated.] > TRANSID:317f50a42d9504d166e57dcb2d1e72178d7590f16aab > ===================================================================== ====== > From: FG <@moa.net> > Subject: Response to Dr. Steve Burgess 2 or 3 > Newsgroups: news.groups > Message-Id: <856175821.15185@dejanews.com> > Reply-To: Frederick Glaysher <@moa.net> > Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service > X-Article-Creation-Date: Mon Feb 17 10:37:01 1997 GMT > X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.38 (ppp-pm01-dy-6.ouhub.moa.net) > X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) > > > > > > Dr Steve Burgess wrote: > > > > > > Rick Shaut wrote (inpart quoting a letter from the Universal House of > > > Justice about the Talisman affair): > > > > > > >"Through such activities, and the mutual support that they give to > one > > > another, these friends have increasingly assumed the appearance of a > > > dissident group of Baha'is who are attempting to arouse widespread > > > dissatisfaction in the community and thereby to bring about changes in > > > the structure and principles of Baha'i administration, making it > accord more > > > closely with their personal notions. Such an activity is closely > analogous > > > to the pursuit of a partisan political program, an activity which is > > > accepted and even admired in most societies, but is entirely > antithetical > > > to the spirit of the Baha'i Faith. It promotes an atmosphere of > > > contention, and Baha'u'llah has expressly stated: "Conflict and > contention > > > are categorically forbidden in His Book."' > > > > > > >I can only state that this letter describes, quite accurately, the > kinds of activities I saw when Talisman I was still in operation. > > > > > > Fred Glaysher wrote (in response to RobbbRobbb@aol.com's assertion > that > > > moderation of soc.religion.bahai constituted censorship and that he > was > > > thus supporting the notion of tal.religion.bahai. > > > > > > > I appreciate your honest contribution. You're a rare Bahai.... > > > > > > > > I found the juxtaposition illustrative! > > > > > THIS KIND OF INTIMATION SOC.RELIGION.BAHAI PERMITS.... AND THEN > DROPS THE IRON CURTAIN AS THOUGH THE LAST WORD OF TRUTH WERE SAID. > OH NO, THEY'RE NOT MANIPULATING DISCUSSION.... > > > > Regards > > > Steve > > > FREDERICK GLAYSHER WROTE: > > > > On further reflection, this juxtaposition that you seem to delight in > > appears to me reminiscent of the red-baiting tactics of the Cold War > > world. Once that was done the individual was essentially blacklisted > > without any hearing or trial. Is that what you're hoping for? If so, > > why? Your earlier posts, in retrospect, are curious too. While you > > picked up the Subject header for talk.religion.bahai, your discussion > > ranged over other topics. Why? Please be frank and state your true > > opinions instead of insinuations and attempts, apparently, at black > > balling me by intimating associations I've never had.... > > > > ON SECOND READING, I CONTINUE TO BELIEVE MR. DETWEILER'S ALLEGATIONS > AND SUPPRESSION OF THIS RESPONSE TO DR. STEVE BURGESS IS UNJUSTIFIABLE > CENSORSHIP. I TAKE IT AS CLEAR EVIDENCE OF THE URGENT NEED TO VOTE > YES ON THE PROPOSAL FOR A FREE, OPEN, UNCENSORED, UNMANIPULATED > NEWSGROUP ON THE BAHAI FAITH--FOR ALL PEOPLE ON THE INTERNET, BAHAIS > AND NON-BAHAIS. > > > -- > > Frederick Glaysher > > Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > > > > FREDERICK GLAYSHER > ROCHESTER HILLS, MICHIGAN USA > > -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- > https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet > > ===================================================================== ====== > > WHAT TO DO IF YOU DID NOT REQUEST THIS POSTING: > ---------------------------------------------- > [This article has NOT yet been posted to Usenet. The reason we send this > email is to authenticate the author of articles we post.] > > If you did not request this article be posted to Usenet via the Deja News > service, that could mean someone using our service forged your address and > attempted to make this article appear as if you had posted it. The person > who did this used the IP address we log in the X-Originating-IP-Addr: > header field of the posting. This person may be able to be traced if you > contact the system administrator at their site. > > If you would like us to try to find out if someone forged your address, > please write to postnews@dejanews.com, include a statement like "I didn't > write this, please find out who did", and include this entire message. We > will try to help you as much as we can, but we are not a legal body and > other system administrators are not always cooperative, so we cannot > promise any results. We are sorry for any inconvenience. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Mon Feb 17 08:05:54 1997 Received: from default (204.38.255.38) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Mon, 17 Feb 1997 07:58:10 -0500 Message-ID: <330857A1.2E9E@moa.net> Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 08:05:37 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dopost@grunt.dejanews.com Subject: please post References: <199702171037.EAA15213@grunt.dejanews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 6393 dopost@grunt.dejanews.com wrote: > > [A reply is required to post your article. (If you did not request this, > please do not reply to this email, instead read the instructions at the > bottom of this note, and send any questions to postnews@dejanews.com).] > > You have requested that the following article be posted to Usenet via the > Posting Service at Deja News. Your article is currently sitting in our > spool waiting for you to authorize it by following the following > instructions: > > TO POST YOUR ARTICLE PLEASE READ AND FOLLOW THESE INSTRUCTIONS: > --------------------------------------------------------------- > - You must reply to this email, including the ENTIRE text of this email in > the reply. (It's okay if your email program inserts characters in the left > hand column, e.g. '>', or whatever). The reply MUST be sent to: > dopost@postnews.dejanews.com > - You must change the Subject: header of your reply to contain the > words: "PLEASE POST" (capitalization doesn't matter). (Note: this is the > Subject header of the message you send to us, not the subject header of the > article you wish to have posted). > > [The following string must not be changed/modified/wrapped/truncated.] > TRANSID:317f50a42d9504d166e57dcb2d1e72178d7590f16aab > ===================================================================== ====== > From: FG <@moa.net> > Subject: Response to Dr. Steve Burgess 2 or 3 > Newsgroups: news.groups > Message-Id: <856175821.15185@dejanews.com> > Reply-To: Frederick Glaysher <@moa.net> > Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service > X-Article-Creation-Date: Mon Feb 17 10:37:01 1997 GMT > X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.38 (ppp-pm01-dy-6.ouhub.moa.net) > X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) > > > > > > Dr Steve Burgess wrote: > > > > > > Rick Shaut wrote (inpart quoting a letter from the Universal House of > > > Justice about the Talisman affair): > > > > > > >"Through such activities, and the mutual support that they give to > one > > > another, these friends have increasingly assumed the appearance of a > > > dissident group of Baha'is who are attempting to arouse widespread > > > dissatisfaction in the community and thereby to bring about changes in > > > the structure and principles of Baha'i administration, making it > accord more > > > closely with their personal notions. Such an activity is closely > analogous > > > to the pursuit of a partisan political program, an activity which is > > > accepted and even admired in most societies, but is entirely > antithetical > > > to the spirit of the Baha'i Faith. It promotes an atmosphere of > > > contention, and Baha'u'llah has expressly stated: "Conflict and > contention > > > are categorically forbidden in His Book."' > > > > > > >I can only state that this letter describes, quite accurately, the > kinds of activities I saw when Talisman I was still in operation. > > > > > > Fred Glaysher wrote (in response to RobbbRobbb@aol.com's assertion > that > > > moderation of soc.religion.bahai constituted censorship and that he > was > > > thus supporting the notion of tal.religion.bahai. > > > > > > > I appreciate your honest contribution. You're a rare Bahai.... > > > > > > > > I found the juxtaposition illustrative! > > > > > THIS KIND OF INTIMATION SOC.RELIGION.BAHAI PERMITS.... AND THEN > DROPS THE IRON CURTAIN AS THOUGH THE LAST WORD OF TRUTH WERE SAID. > OH NO, THEY'RE NOT MANIPULATING DISCUSSION.... > > > > Regards > > > Steve > > > FREDERICK GLAYSHER WROTE: > > > > On further reflection, this juxtaposition that you seem to delight in > > appears to me reminiscent of the red-baiting tactics of the Cold War > > world. Once that was done the individual was essentially blacklisted > > without any hearing or trial. Is that what you're hoping for? If so, > > why? Your earlier posts, in retrospect, are curious too. While you > > picked up the Subject header for talk.religion.bahai, your discussion > > ranged over other topics. Why? Please be frank and state your true > > opinions instead of insinuations and attempts, apparently, at black > > balling me by intimating associations I've never had.... > > > > ON SECOND READING, I CONTINUE TO BELIEVE MR. DETWEILER'S ALLEGATIONS > AND SUPPRESSION OF THIS RESPONSE TO DR. STEVE BURGESS IS UNJUSTIFIABLE > CENSORSHIP. I TAKE IT AS CLEAR EVIDENCE OF THE URGENT NEED TO VOTE > YES ON THE PROPOSAL FOR A FREE, OPEN, UNCENSORED, UNMANIPULATED > NEWSGROUP ON THE BAHAI FAITH--FOR ALL PEOPLE ON THE INTERNET, BAHAIS > AND NON-BAHAIS. > > > -- > > Frederick Glaysher > > Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > > > > FREDERICK GLAYSHER > ROCHESTER HILLS, MICHIGAN USA > > -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- > https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet > > ===================================================================== ====== > > WHAT TO DO IF YOU DID NOT REQUEST THIS POSTING: > ---------------------------------------------- > [This article has NOT yet been posted to Usenet. The reason we send this > email is to authenticate the author of articles we post.] > > If you did not request this article be posted to Usenet via the Deja News > service, that could mean someone using our service forged your address and > attempted to make this article appear as if you had posted it. The person > who did this used the IP address we log in the X-Originating-IP-Addr: > header field of the posting. This person may be able to be traced if you > contact the system administrator at their site. > > If you would like us to try to find out if someone forged your address, > please write to postnews@dejanews.com, include a statement like "I didn't > write this, please find out who did", and include this entire message. We > will try to help you as much as we can, but we are not a legal body and > other system administrators are not always cooperative, so we cannot > promise any results. We are sorry for any inconvenience. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Mon Feb 17 08:19:06 1997 Received: from default (204.38.255.38) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Mon, 17 Feb 1997 08:09:46 -0500 Message-ID: <33085A58.4557@moa.net> Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 08:17:12 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dopost@grunt.dejanews.com Subject: please post References: <199702171050.EAA15611@grunt.dejanews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 7990 dopost@grunt.dejanews.com wrote: > > [A reply is required to post your article. (If you did not request this, > please do not reply to this email, instead read the instructions at the > bottom of this note, and send any questions to postnews@dejanews.com).] > > You have requested that the following article be posted to Usenet via the > Posting Service at Deja News. Your article is currently sitting in our > spool waiting for you to authorize it by following the following > instructions: > > TO POST YOUR ARTICLE PLEASE READ AND FOLLOW THESE INSTRUCTIONS: > --------------------------------------------------------------- > - You must reply to this email, including the ENTIRE text of this email in > the reply. (It's okay if your email program inserts characters in the left > hand column, e.g. '>', or whatever). The reply MUST be sent to: > dopost@postnews.dejanews.com > - You must change the Subject: header of your reply to contain the > words: "PLEASE POST" (capitalization doesn't matter). (Note: this is the > Subject header of the message you send to us, not the subject header of the > article you wish to have posted). > > [The following string must not be changed/modified/wrapped/truncated.] > TRANSID:312f40847dd524d10c5fbba902cd5e88c1b54651fd0d > ===================================================================== ====== > From: FG <@moa.net> > Subject: Censored: 2-16-97 > Newsgroups: news.groups > Message-Id: <856176597.15596@dejanews.com> > Reply-To: Frederick Glaysher <@moa.net> > Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service > To: srb-mods@moa.net > X-Article-Creation-Date: Mon Feb 17 10:49:59 1997 GMT > X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.38 (ppp-pm01-dy-6.ouhub.moa.net) > X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) > > Subject: > Re: T.R.bahai Response: Sevcik > Date: > Sun, 16 Feb 1997 18:17:54 -0700 (MST) > From: > "Richard C. Detweiler" > To: > @moa.net > CC: > srb-mods@bcca.org > > > Fred, > > The mdoerators are referring all posts on t.r.b. to news.groups. > > Dick Detweiler > > > > From dopost@grunt.dejanews.com Sun Feb 16 17:39:05 1997 > > Received: from bcca.org (bounty.bcca.org [208.133.44.40]) > > by primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA10701 > > for ; Sun, 16 Feb 1997 17:39:04 -0700 (MST) > > Received: from grunt.dejanews.com by bcca.org with smtp > > (Smail3.1.29.1 #3) id m0vwH4S-0008h1C; Sun, 16 Feb 97 19:36 EST > > Received: (from dopost@localhost) by grunt.dejanews.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) id > QAA31267; Sun, 16 Feb 1997 16:31:19 -0600 > > Path: grunt.dejanews.com!not-for-mail > > Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 16:31:19 -0600 > > From: FG <@moa.net> > > Subject: T.R.bahai Response: Sevcik > > Newsgroups: news.groups > > Message-Id: <856105146.14696@dejanews.com> > > Reply-To: Frederick Glaysher <@moa.net> > > Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service > > To: srb-mods@bcca.org > > X-Article-Creation-Date: Sun Feb 16 14:59:06 1997 GMT > > X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.57 (ppp-pm01-dy-25.ouhub.moa.net) > > X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) > > X-Authenticated-Sender: Frederick Glaysher <@moa.net> > > Content-Length: 2716 > > > > > > [This is a courtesy copy of an article posted to Usenet via Deja News] > > > > Edward Sevcik wrote: > > > > > > In article <5dql1t$hf1@nnrp1.news.primenet.com>, > @moa.net > > > says... > > > > > > >Foul.... Who elected or appointed the moderators to make these > > > >decisions? > > > > > > > >Answer: nobody. I take this as anther instance of censorship and > > > >evidence of why talk.religion.bahai is needed. > > > > > > Dear Fred - > > > > > > Your statements do nothing to show the need of such a forum. The word > > > "censorship" implies that someone has the power to keep people from > > > hearing whatever you wish to say. > > > > I have not implied; I have stated it outright as something that exists; > > others have agreed. I have cooperated, as asked by others, and posted > > evidence to news.groups for people to read for themselves. > > > > There are many avenues, on Usenet > > > and the WWW, to get your point across on any issue concerning the > > > Baha'i Faith. > > > > I've indicated repeatedly that this suggestion is an inadequate one, > > IMHO. > > > > We do not need an unmoderated newsgroup full of > > > MAKE.MONEY.FAST and harsh, disreputable flamewars between people whose > > > only interest is to make insulting statements and upset others. > > > > "MAKE.MONEY.FAST"? Wow! I've never suggested anything in that regard. > > How would anyone make money off talk.religion.bahai? The rest of the > > above sounds to me like character assassination, namely, of mine and > > my position, if you will. > > > > This is > > > NOT a first amendment issue, I must tell you. As I understand it, > > > the Faith, our part in the Covenant, implies that we remain silent and > > > accept certain things that we, as Americans, are culturally trained > > > to disobey or complain about in public. Please do not agitate for > > > this issue any more. It is not worth it. > > > > > > > I believe it is a first amendment issue. I am a Bahai, and I am a > > citizen of this country. What I have candidly and honestly said is > > that there is a problem with the way INDIVIDUALS are interpreting and > > constraining the expression of religious conviction and conscience on > > soc.religion.bahai. I have not said it's a plot on the part of the > > Administrative Order of Baha'u'llah to get us all to drink poisoned > > Kool-Ade or something. Let's keep a fair perspective here. I do not > > believe that the Covenant requires us to accept injustice when it > > occurs to us. Your use of the word "agitate" is loaded with nuances > > that are unfair. Justice is worth any sacrifice: "The best beloved > > of all things in my sight is justice." > > > > > Ed > > > > Please crosspost your responses to news.groups > > > > -- > > Frederick Glaysher > > Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > > -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- > https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet > > ===================================================================== ====== > > WHAT TO DO IF YOU DID NOT REQUEST THIS POSTING: > ---------------------------------------------- > [This article has NOT yet been posted to Usenet. The reason we send this > email is to authenticate the author of articles we post.] > > If you did not request this article be posted to Usenet via the Deja News > service, that could mean someone using our service forged your address and > attempted to make this article appear as if you had posted it. The person > who did this used the IP address we log in the X-Originating-IP-Addr: > header field of the posting. This person may be able to be traced if you > contact the system administrator at their site. > > If you would like us to try to find out if someone forged your address, > please write to postnews@dejanews.com, include a statement like "I didn't > write this, please find out who did", and include this entire message. We > will try to help you as much as we can, but we are not a legal body and > other system administrators are not always cooperative, so we cannot > promise any results. We are sorry for any inconvenience. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Mon Feb 17 08:17:12 1997 BCC: @MOA.net Message-ID: <33085A58.4557@moa.net> Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 08:17:12 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dopost@grunt.dejanews.com Subject: please post References: <199702171050.EAA15611@grunt.dejanews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 7992 dopost@grunt.dejanews.com wrote: > > [A reply is required to post your article. (If you did not request this, > please do not reply to this email, instead read the instructions at the > bottom of this note, and send any questions to postnews@dejanews.com).] > > You have requested that the following article be posted to Usenet via the > Posting Service at Deja News. Your article is currently sitting in our > spool waiting for you to authorize it by following the following > instructions: > > TO POST YOUR ARTICLE PLEASE READ AND FOLLOW THESE INSTRUCTIONS: > --------------------------------------------------------------- > - You must reply to this email, including the ENTIRE text of this email in > the reply. (It's okay if your email program inserts characters in the left > hand column, e.g. '>', or whatever). The reply MUST be sent to: > dopost@postnews.dejanews.com > - You must change the Subject: header of your reply to contain the > words: "PLEASE POST" (capitalization doesn't matter). (Note: this is the > Subject header of the message you send to us, not the subject header of the > article you wish to have posted). > > [The following string must not be changed/modified/wrapped/truncated.] > TRANSID:312f40847dd524d10c5fbba902cd5e88c1b54651fd0d > ===================================================================== ====== > From: FG <@moa.net> > Subject: Censored: 2-16-97 > Newsgroups: news.groups > Message-Id: <856176597.15596@dejanews.com> > Reply-To: Frederick Glaysher <@moa.net> > Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service > To: srb-mods@moa.net > X-Article-Creation-Date: Mon Feb 17 10:49:59 1997 GMT > X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.38 (ppp-pm01-dy-6.ouhub.moa.net) > X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) > > Subject: > Re: T.R.bahai Response: Sevcik > Date: > Sun, 16 Feb 1997 18:17:54 -0700 (MST) > From: > "Richard C. Detweiler" > To: > @moa.net > CC: > srb-mods@bcca.org > > > Fred, > > The mdoerators are referring all posts on t.r.b. to news.groups. > > Dick Detweiler > > > > From dopost@grunt.dejanews.com Sun Feb 16 17:39:05 1997 > > Received: from bcca.org (bounty.bcca.org [208.133.44.40]) > > by primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA10701 > > for ; Sun, 16 Feb 1997 17:39:04 -0700 (MST) > > Received: from grunt.dejanews.com by bcca.org with smtp > > (Smail3.1.29.1 #3) id m0vwH4S-0008h1C; Sun, 16 Feb 97 19:36 EST > > Received: (from dopost@localhost) by grunt.dejanews.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) id > QAA31267; Sun, 16 Feb 1997 16:31:19 -0600 > > Path: grunt.dejanews.com!not-for-mail > > Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 16:31:19 -0600 > > From: FG <@moa.net> > > Subject: T.R.bahai Response: Sevcik > > Newsgroups: news.groups > > Message-Id: <856105146.14696@dejanews.com> > > Reply-To: Frederick Glaysher <@moa.net> > > Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service > > To: srb-mods@bcca.org > > X-Article-Creation-Date: Sun Feb 16 14:59:06 1997 GMT > > X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.57 (ppp-pm01-dy-25.ouhub.moa.net) > > X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) > > X-Authenticated-Sender: Frederick Glaysher <@moa.net> > > Content-Length: 2716 > > > > > > [This is a courtesy copy of an article posted to Usenet via Deja News] > > > > Edward Sevcik wrote: > > > > > > In article <5dql1t$hf1@nnrp1.news.primenet.com>, > @moa.net > > > says... > > > > > > >Foul.... Who elected or appointed the moderators to make these > > > >decisions? > > > > > > > >Answer: nobody. I take this as anther instance of censorship and > > > >evidence of why talk.religion.bahai is needed. > > > > > > Dear Fred - > > > > > > Your statements do nothing to show the need of such a forum. The word > > > "censorship" implies that someone has the power to keep people from > > > hearing whatever you wish to say. > > > > I have not implied; I have stated it outright as something that exists; > > others have agreed. I have cooperated, as asked by others, and posted > > evidence to news.groups for people to read for themselves. > > > > There are many avenues, on Usenet > > > and the WWW, to get your point across on any issue concerning the > > > Baha'i Faith. > > > > I've indicated repeatedly that this suggestion is an inadequate one, > > IMHO. > > > > We do not need an unmoderated newsgroup full of > > > MAKE.MONEY.FAST and harsh, disreputable flamewars between people whose > > > only interest is to make insulting statements and upset others. > > > > "MAKE.MONEY.FAST"? Wow! I've never suggested anything in that regard. > > How would anyone make money off talk.religion.bahai? The rest of the > > above sounds to me like character assassination, namely, of mine and > > my position, if you will. > > > > This is > > > NOT a first amendment issue, I must tell you. As I understand it, > > > the Faith, our part in the Covenant, implies that we remain silent and > > > accept certain things that we, as Americans, are culturally trained > > > to disobey or complain about in public. Please do not agitate for > > > this issue any more. It is not worth it. > > > > > > > I believe it is a first amendment issue. I am a Bahai, and I am a > > citizen of this country. What I have candidly and honestly said is > > that there is a problem with the way INDIVIDUALS are interpreting and > > constraining the expression of religious conviction and conscience on > > soc.religion.bahai. I have not said it's a plot on the part of the > > Administrative Order of Baha'u'llah to get us all to drink poisoned > > Kool-Ade or something. Let's keep a fair perspective here. I do not > > believe that the Covenant requires us to accept injustice when it > > occurs to us. Your use of the word "agitate" is loaded with nuances > > that are unfair. Justice is worth any sacrifice: "The best beloved > > of all things in my sight is justice." > > > > > Ed > > > > Please crosspost your responses to news.groups > > > > -- > > Frederick Glaysher > > Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > > -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- > https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet > > ===================================================================== ====== > > WHAT TO DO IF YOU DID NOT REQUEST THIS POSTING: > ---------------------------------------------- > [This article has NOT yet been posted to Usenet. The reason we send this > email is to authenticate the author of articles we post.] > > If you did not request this article be posted to Usenet via the Deja News > service, that could mean someone using our service forged your address and > attempted to make this article appear as if you had posted it. The person > who did this used the IP address we log in the X-Originating-IP-Addr: > header field of the posting. This person may be able to be traced if you > contact the system administrator at their site. > > If you would like us to try to find out if someone forged your address, > please write to postnews@dejanews.com, include a statement like "I didn't > write this, please find out who did", and include this entire message. We > will try to help you as much as we can, but we are not a legal body and > other system administrators are not always cooperative, so we cannot > promise any results. We are sorry for any inconvenience. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Mon Feb 17 08:19:11 1997 Received: from default (204.38.255.38) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Mon, 17 Feb 1997 08:10:55 -0500 Message-ID: <33085A9D.3001@moa.net> Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 08:18:21 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dopost@grunt.dejanews.com Subject: please post References: <199702171054.EAA15756@grunt.dejanews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 8603 dopost@grunt.dejanews.com wrote: > > [A reply is required to post your article. (If you did not request this, > please do not reply to this email, instead read the instructions at the > bottom of this note, and send any questions to postnews@dejanews.com).] > > You have requested that the following article be posted to Usenet via the > Posting Service at Deja News. Your article is currently sitting in our > spool waiting for you to authorize it by following the following > instructions: > > TO POST YOUR ARTICLE PLEASE READ AND FOLLOW THESE INSTRUCTIONS: > --------------------------------------------------------------- > - You must reply to this email, including the ENTIRE text of this email in > the reply. (It's okay if your email program inserts characters in the left > hand column, e.g. '>', or whatever). The reply MUST be sent to: > dopost@postnews.dejanews.com > - You must change the Subject: header of your reply to contain the > words: "PLEASE POST" (capitalization doesn't matter). (Note: this is the > Subject header of the message you send to us, not the subject header of the > article you wish to have posted). > > [The following string must not be changed/modified/wrapped/truncated.] > TRANSID:41cf50f47db524d1d665d11babebca04072ce71b31c0 > ===================================================================== ====== > From: FG <@moa.net> > Subject: Censored#2 2-16-97 > Newsgroups: news.groups > Message-Id: <856176879.15734@dejanews.com> > Reply-To: Frederick Glaysher <@moa.net> > Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service > To: bahai-faith@bcca.org,srb-mods@bcca.org > X-Article-Creation-Date: Mon Feb 17 10:54:41 1997 GMT > X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.38 (ppp-pm01-dy-6.ouhub.moa.net) > X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) > > ubject: > Re: T.R.Bahai: For Everybody > Date: > Sun, 16 Feb 1997 18:36:04 -0700 (MST) > From: > "Richard C. Detweiler" > To: > @moa.net > CC: > srb-mods@bcca.org > > > The moderators are directing all discussion of talk.religion.bahai > to news.groups. > > > From dopost@grunt.dejanews.com Sun Feb 16 09:39:19 1997 > > Received: from bcca.org (root@bounty.bcca.org [208.133.44.40]) > > by primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA11481 > > for ; Sun, 16 Feb 1997 09:39:17 -0700 (MST) > > Received: from grunt.dejanews.com by bcca.org with smtp > > (Smail3.1.29.1 #3) id m0vw9cF-0008nAC; Sun, 16 Feb 97 11:39 EST > > Received: (from dopost@localhost) by grunt.dejanews.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) id > IAA14081; Sun, 16 Feb 1997 08:41:42 -0600 > > Path: grunt.dejanews.com!not-for-mail > > Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 08:41:40 -0600 > > From: FG <@moa.net> > > Subject: T.R.Bahai: For Everybody > > Newsgroups: news.groups > > Message-Id: <856102824.13291@dejanews.com> > > Reply-To: Frederick Glaysher <@moa.net> > > Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service > > To: rreini@wwnet.com, SRB-MODS@BCCA.ORG > > X-Article-Creation-Date: Sun Feb 16 14:20:25 1997 GMT > > X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.52 (ppp-pm01-dy-20.ouhub.moa.net) > > X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) > > X-Authenticated-Sender: Frederick Glaysher <@moa.net> > > Content-Length: 3227 > > > > > > [This is a courtesy copy of an article posted to Usenet via Deja News] > > > > ROGER, PLEASE EMAIL SRB-MODS@BCCA.ORG THAT YOU PERMIT THIS PRIVATE > > EMAIL TO BE POST THERE, IF IT'S ALL RIGHT WITH YOU. THANKS. > > > > Subject: > > Re: t.r.bahai - NEEDED > > Date: > > Sat, 15 Feb 1997 18:54:38 GMT > > From: > > rreini@wwnet.com (Roger Reini) > > To: > > @moa.net > > References: > > 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 > > > > > > On 15 Feb 1997 09:52:04 -0700, in soc.religion.bahai Frederick > > Glaysher wrote: > > > > >Do you think I'm a covenant breaker? Do you think I'm trying to > > >change the administration? > > > > This note is to everybody. > > > > THEN WE NEED TO POST IT WHERE EVERBODY CAN SEE IT. > > > > We individuals must be VERY careful about making such allegations. I > > do not feel that that happened in this case, but it is something we > > need to keep in mind. > > > > RAISING THIS ISSUE, THOUGH, IN BAHAI CIRCLES, IS TANTAMOUNT TO > > WAVING A RED FLAG BEFORE A BULL.... TO CHANGE METAPHORS, OR DROP > > IT RATHER, IT STIFLES ALL DISCUSSION OFTEN. IT'S AKIN REALLY TO > > THE RED-BAITING OF THE 50'S AND 60'S DURING THE COLD WAR. > > > > Accusing someone of breaking the Covenant is a very serious matter, > > one that should not be done lightly. The consequences are serious for > > all involved. But if somebody feels that somebody has made a > > statement that appears to contravene the Covenant, he/she should feel > > free to say so and to call upon that individual to explain how it does > > not contravene the Covenant. Here is a quotation from a letter from > > the Secretariat at the Baha'i World Centre dated Feb. 1996: > > > > I DON'T DISAGREE WITH ANYTHING ABOVE OR BELOW. I DO, HOWEVER, FEEL > > THIS IS TOO CAVALIERLY BROUGHT, ON MANY OCCASIONS, INCLUDING THIS > > ONE. I HAVEN'T ATTACKED THE INSTITUTIONS OR THE FAITH. I HAVE > > CALLED INTO QUESTION, FOR GOOD REASONS, IMHO, THE CONDUCT AND > > PROCEDURES OF INDIVIDUALS RUNNING A PUBLIC FORUM OF DISCUSSION. > > TO INTIMATE IN ANY WAY THAT I'M AUTOMATICALLY A COVENANT BREAKER > > IS SCREAMING FIRE IN A THEATER.... > > > > "Thus, if any participant in an email discussion > > feels that a view put forward appears to contradict or > > undermine the provisions of the Covenant, he should be > > free to say so, explaining candidly and courteously why he > > feels as he does. The person who made the initial > > statement will then be able to re-evaluate his opinion > > and, if he still believes it to be valid, he should be > > able to explain why it is not contrary to either the > > letter or the spirit of the Covenant." > > > > Given the recent discussions about the proposed talk.religion.bahai, > > it may be worthwhile for us to consider two recent statements of the > > Universal House of Justice about email discussion. I'll post those > > separately. > > > > IS THERE A PASSAGE I'VE WRITTEN YOU WANT TO CITE? IF YOUR MAKING > > THE CHARGE, OR EVEN AS YOU ARE HERE VAGUELY INTIMATING IT BY > > BRINGING UP THE WHOLE ISSUE, WHERE'S THE EVIDENCE? I'M NOT > > AFRAID OF THE CHARGE BECAUSE I GENUINELY SUPPORT THE ADMINISTRATIVE > > ORDER OF BAHA'U'LLAH.... > > > > Roger (rreini@wwnet.com) > > https://www.wwnet.com/~rreini/ > > > > FREDERICK GLAYSHER > > ROCHESTER HILLS, MICHIGAN USA > > > > -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- > https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet > > ===================================================================== ====== > > WHAT TO DO IF YOU DID NOT REQUEST THIS POSTING: > ---------------------------------------------- > [This article has NOT yet been posted to Usenet. The reason we send this > email is to authenticate the author of articles we post.] > > If you did not request this article be posted to Usenet via the Deja News > service, that could mean someone using our service forged your address and > attempted to make this article appear as if you had posted it. The person > who did this used the IP address we log in the X-Originating-IP-Addr: > header field of the posting. This person may be able to be traced if you > contact the system administrator at their site. > > If you would like us to try to find out if someone forged your address, > please write to postnews@dejanews.com, include a statement like "I didn't > write this, please find out who did", and include this entire message. We > will try to help you as much as we can, but we are not a legal body and > other system administrators are not always cooperative, so we cannot > promise any results. We are sorry for any inconvenience.