From: Kavosh Soltani <kavosh@muslimsonline.com>
Subject: How Soc.Religion.Bahai Censures the truth about Bahai activities....
Date: Saturday, November 28, 1998 9:15 PM
A few weeks ago, these guys censured my reply to Bahai missionaries
who routinely misquote and misrepresenting Islamic Scriptures on SRB.
Now, they think they have found some good reason to reject what really
are answers to well known Bahai misquotations of Quran....
==================================================
-----Original Message-----
From: Island Business Center (Bill Hyman) <billh@samoatelco.com>
To: Kavosh Soltani <kavosh@muslimsonline.com>
Cc: srb <srb-mods@bcca.org>
Date: Saturday, November 28, 1998 1:14 AM
Subject: Re: Another Example of How Bahai Scholars and Missionaries Misguide
their Unfortunate Followers
>Kavosh:
>
>I am returning your submission for several reasons.
>
>1. The title is disrespectful to another world religion.
>
>2. Your statement, "If anything, it is the Bahai scholars and missionaries
>who are guilty of knowingly spreading falsehood about the
>teachings of Al-Islam," is conjecture and unproven. Baha'is would certainly
>uphold everything in the Koran
>as true, but not necessarily your interpretation of it, or, in fact, the
>interpretation of anyone now living.
>
>3. I do not remember seeing the original submission from Rachel posted on
>this forum, and, even if it was,
>she is not a Baha'i but a follower of Al-Islam. You are therefore aguing
>Islamic points with someone from
>your own faith and that is not the purpose of this forum.
>
>I am forwarding this submission to Rachel so that she can reply to you.
>
>Bill Hyman
>co-moderator
>soc.religion.bahai
>----------
>From: "Kavosh Soltani" <kavosh@muslimsonline.com>
>To: soc-religion-bahai@moderators.uu.net
>Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai
>Subject: Another Example of How Bahai Scholars and Missionaries Misguide
>their Unfortunate Followers
>Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 21:34:03 -0500
>
>Rachel r.woodlock@bigfoot.com (a Bahai) wrote:
>>Allah may have protected His deen, but He also warned that if Muslims fail
>>like the previous generations He would raise up *another* people ...
>> a threat >to not take one's position as holders of Allah's Word for
>> granted!
>>
>>"...If ye turn back (from the Path), He will substitute in your
>> stead another people; then they would not be like you!"
>> Surah Muhammad 47:38
>
>I see that once more you are just repeating what the "scholars"
>of your faith have been falsely claiming for years. As I mentioned
>before, even if I were to mistakenly accept the quotes you have
>presented as being addressed to Muslims, we still will not have
>what you are claiming to be presenting in support of new religions
>after Al-Islam. As long as there are any of us fulfilling our obligation
>(and there are millions of us), we have not turned our back to faith.
>
>Now, Rachel isn't rejecting the clear word of God in favor of mere
>conjecture the biggest problem with Christianity? Is it not dangerous
>for you to follow in their steps?
>
>If you allow me, I will, enshaAllah, show how wrong it is to quote
>this passage as you have. Let's read the sentence within proper
>context:
>
> "O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the messenger,
> and make not vain your deeds!
>
> Those who reject Allah, and hinder (men) from the Path of
> Allah, then die rejecting Allah,- Allah will not forgive them.
>
> Be not weary and faint-hearted, crying for peace, when ye
> should be uppermost: for Allah is with you, and will never put
> you in loss for your (good) deeds.
>
> The life of this world is but play and amusement: and if ye
> believe and guard against Evil, He will grant you your
> recompense, and will not ask you (to give up) your possessions.
>
> If He were to ask you for all of them, and press you, ye would
> covetously withhold, and He would bring out all your ill-feeling.
>
> Behold, ye are those invited to spend (of your substance) in
> the Way of Allah: But among you are some that are niggardly.
> But any who are niggardly are so at the expense of their own
> souls. But Allah is free of all wants, and it is ye that are needy.
> If ye turn back (from the Path), He will substitute in your stead
> another people; then they would not be like you!"
> (The holy Quran, 47:33-38)
>
>I do not see how anyone can claim that this is a warning to Muslims
>and a proof that prophethood will continue! This obviously is a
>warning to those who:
>
> 1. Are niggardly;
>
> 2. Reject Allah, and hinder (men) from the Path of Allah
> (i.e. follow false faiths or engage in vain talk).
>
>>"It is We Who have sent down the Qur'án to thee by stages...
>>It is We Who created them, and We have made their joints strong;
>>but, when We will, We can substitute the like of them by a
>>complete change. This is an admonition: Whosoever will, let him
>>take a (straight) Path to his Lord."
>>Surah Ad-Dahr 76:23,28-9
>
>Once more, allow us to look at this passage within proper context:
>
> "It is We Who have sent down the Qur'an to thee by stages.
>
> Therefore be patient with constancy to the Command of thy
> Lord, and hearken not to the sinner or the ingrate among them.
>
> And celebrate the name or thy Lord morning and evening,
>
> And part of the night, prostrate thyself to Him; and glorify Him
> a long night through.
>
> As to these, they love the fleeting life, and put away behind
> them a Day (that will be) hard.
>
> It is We Who created them, and We have made their joints
> strong; but, when We will, We can substitute the like of
> them by a complete change.
>
> This is an admonition: Whosoever will, let him take a (straight)
> Path to his Lord."
> (The holy Quran, 76:23-29)
>
>How can you claim this to be a reference to Muslims, when the
>Merciful Allah(the Exalted) has addressed it clearly to those who
>"love the fleeting life, and put away behind them a Day (day of
>Judgment) hard". Perhaps, if you had included the entire passage,
>you would not have made such a gross mistake and would not
>have said of Allah(the Exalted) what is not true...
>
>>"Now I do call to witness the Lord of all points in the East and the West
>>that We can certainly- Substitute for them better (men) than they; And We
>>are not to be defeated (in Our Plan)." Surah Al-Ma'arij 70:40-41
>
>I hope you do see a pattern here! I am a Muslim, a follower of
>truth and clear guidance. I hope I will not be accused of being an
>"anti-Bahai apologetic", when all I am doing is setting the record
>straight, standing for truth, and showing the true teachings of
>Al-Islam. If anything, it is the Bahai scholars and missionaries
>who are guilty of knowingly spreading falsehood about the
>teachings of Al-Islam.
>
>Let's read this passage also within the proper context:
>
> "Now what is the matter with the Unbelievers that they rush
> madly before thee-
>
> From the right and from the left, in crowds?
>
> Does every man of them long to enter the Garden of Bliss?
>
> By no means! For We have created them out of the (base
> matter) they know!
>
> Now I do call to witness the Lord of all points in the East
> and the West that We can certainly-
>
> Substitute for them better (men) than they; And We are not
> to be defeated (in Our Plan).
>
> So leave them to plunge in vain talk and play about, until
> they encounter that Day of theirs which they have been promised!-
>
> The Day whereon they will issue from their sepulchres in
> sudden haste as if they were rushing to a goal-post (fixed
> for them),-
>
> Their eyes lowered in dejection,- ignominy covering them
> (all over)! such is the Day the which they are promised!"
> (The Holy Quran, 70:36:44)
>
>I hope you see how this passage is also addressed to
>"Unbelievers" and not Muslims. The passage immediately
>before that was addressed to Muslims; those interested
>are referred to an accurate translation of the holy Quran.
>
>>"We have already sent down to you verses making things clear,
>>an illustration from (the story of) people who passed away
>>before you, and an admonition for those who fear (God)."
>>Surah An-Nur 24:34
>
>How does this help your case? Isn't Allah(the Exalted)
>saying: we ALREADY sent down (in Al-Islam) verse making
>THINGS CLEAR? Then why would we need new guidance?
>
>Ps. I am not asking for more conjecture, but clear evidence.
>
>>"To every people is a term appointed: when their term is
>>reached, not an hour can they cause delay, nor (an hour)
>>can they advance (it in anticipation).
>>
>>O ye Children of Adam! whenever there come to you apostles
>>from amongst you, rehearsing My signs unto you,- those who
>>are righteous and mend (their lives),- on them shall be no
>>fear nor shall they grieve." Surah Al-A'araf 7:34-5
>
>The entire chapter of Al-A'raf (7) deals with those who ignored
>the covenant Allah had taken from them (to follow Messengers
>of Allah - and no one else) and allowed themselves to be guided
>astray. In your example (Quran, 7:35), we really need to go
>back to (7:24) and study the entire passage to see what Quran
>is actually talking about and who is being addressed.
>
>This, as recorded in hadith and books of tafseer, is an address
>by Allah to Adam and his children at the beginning of creation.
>This promise was certainly fulfilled through the 124,000 prophets
>and 315 Messengers commissioned to mankind.
>
>As I've repeatedly mentioned, Allah has told us to understand
>the verses of the Quran in light of other verses and the explanation
>of the Prophet(pbuh). The passage you mentioned is also recorded
>in several other chapters of the Quran (all discussions which took
>place at the time of creation), and leave no doubt who is being
>addressed. For instance, we read:
>
> "We said: "Get ye down all from here (Garden); and if,
> as is sure, there comes to you Guidance from me,
> whosoever follows My guidance, on them shall be no
> fear, nor shall they grieve.
>
> But those who reject Faith and belie Our Signs, they
> shall be companions of the Fire; they shall abide there in."
> (The holy Quran, 2:38-39)
>
> He said: "Get ye down, both of you,- all together,
> from the Garden, with enmity one to another: but if,
> as is sure, there comes to you Guidance from Me,
> whosoever follows My Guidance, will not lose his way,
> nor fall into misery.
>
> But whosoever turns away from My Message, verily for
> him is a life narrowed down, and We shall raise him
> up blind on the Day of Judgment."
> (The holy Quran, 20:123-124)
>
>I hope you see the absolute similarities and how what Allah
>is speaking of is the covenant taken from all people at the
>beginning of Life.
>
>But, the same Creator who took this covenant from all people
>at the time of creation, has also clearly told us that Al-Islam
>is the very last revelation and the way to salvation. So, this
>verse can only apply to Non-Muslims who are ignoring their
>covenant with Allah and are following false religions. Just so
>that we are on the same page, let me review:
>
>1. The verse does not say: "O You Believers" or "O Muslims";
>
>2. There are other verses which indicate this must have taken
> place at the time of creation;
>
>3. The verse says "...If there come to you...", but Allah has clearly
> told humanity that Al-Islam is the Perfected, Completed, Protected,
> and Universal religion and the only deen accepted from humanity;
>
>4. Every Muslim is a Messenger of the Messenger of Allah(pbuh).
> When we recite Quran/Hadith, and enjoin good/discourage evil,
> we are doing exactly the same thing our Prophet(pbuh) did. We
> are delivering the same exact message to the humanity (but not
> creating new faiths or religions);
>
>Lastly, I like to point one more fundamental concept and
>teaching of Islam contained in the short verse you mentioned:
>
>5. The verse says "... If there come to you messengers from
> AMONGST YOU...".
>
> "From Amongst you", meaning human being and not God,
> Son of God, Manifestation of God, or Angels...
>
> This idea is supported by many verse of the holy Quran;
> for instance:
>
> Allah did confer a great favor on the believers when
> He sent among them a messenger FROM AMONG
> THEMSELVES, rehearsing unto them the Signs of Allah,
> sanctifying them, and instructing them in Scripture and
> Wisdom, while, before that, they had been in manifest error.
> (The Holy Quran, 3.164)
>
> And on the Day of Judgment, people will be reminded of
> this warning of Allah:
>
> The Unbelievers will be led to Hell in crowd: until,
> when they arrive, there, its gates will be opened.
> And its keepers will say, "Did not messengers come
> to you from among yourselves, rehearsing to you the
> Signs of your Lord, and warning you of the Meeting
> of This Day of yours?" The answer will be: "True:
> but the Decree of Punishment has been proved true
> against the Unbelievers!" (The Holy Quran, 39.71)
>
> "O ye assembly of Jinns and men! came there not unto
> you messengers from amongst you, setting forth unto
> you My signs, and warning you of the meeting of this
> Day of yours?" They will say: "We bear witness against
> ourselves." It was the life of this world that deceived
> them. So against themselves will they bear witness that
> they rejected Faith. (The Holy Quran, 6.130)
>
> About the perfection of Al-Islam and the duty of all people to
> embrace it whole-heatedly, we read:
>
> "Thus have We revealed it to be a judgment of authority
> in Arabic. Wert thou to follow their desires after the
> knowledge which hath reached thee, then wouldst thou
> find neither protector nor defender against Allah."
> (The holy Quran, 13.37)
>
> "Had We sent down this Qur'an on a mountain, verily,
> thou wouldst have seen it humble itself and cleave
> asunder for fear of Allah. Such are the similitudes
> which We propound to men, that they may reflect."
> (The holy Quran, 59.21)
>
> Verily this Qur'an doth explain to the Children of
> Israel most of the matters in which they disagree.
> And it certainly is A GUIDE and a Mercy to those
> WHO BELIEVE.
> (The holy Quran, 27.76-77)
>
> (It is) a Qur'an in Arabic, without any crookedness
> (therein): in order that they may guard against Evil.
> (The holy Quran, 39.28)
>
> We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and
> We will assuredly GUARD IT (from corruption).
> (The holy Quran, 15.9)
>
>In short, I do not see how these kind of misquotations and
>unfounded "interpretation" of Bahai scholars would cause
>any knowledgeable believer to ignore hundreds of clear
>passages of Islamic Scripture telling us of the Finality of
>Prophethood and Message.
>
>Allah is not our enemy nor the author of confusion. But People
>at times ignore the obvious and resort to false arguments to resist
>submitting to the will of the Creator. Some reject Allah altogether
>and others reject Him by rejecting his perfect religion and following
>man-made ways which are more compatible with their own desires...
>
>As I have repeatedly pointed out, Muslims are submitters to the
>Guidance sent down by the Merciful Creator. I already produced
>a few dozen of hundreds of clear passages of Muslim Scripture
>which indicate no new faith will be born. It is very disturbing to me
>that there were no relies to my posting except conjectures and
>misrepresentation of clear words of God.
>
>I hope those who truly believe in God, realize that a faith whose
>leaders and missionaries are actively engaged in spreading
>falsehood about another faith can not be divine...
>
>Rachel, I hope that you will reflect upon all the evidence so far
>provided, realize the falsehood of Bahaism, and submit to the
>Merciful Creator in Al-Islam.
>
>===========================================================
>None can dispute about the Signs of Allah but the Unbelievers.
>Let not, then, their strutting about through the land deceive thee!
>(The holy Quran, 40.4)
>
>O ye who believe! Enter into Islam whole-heartedly; and follow
>not the footsteps of the evil one; for he is to you an avowed enemy.
>(The holy Quran, 2.208)
>
>Fain would they extinguish Allah's light with their mouths, but
>Allah will not allow but that His light should be perfected, even
>though the Unbelievers may detest (it).
>(The holy Quran, 9.32)